[sustran] Re: BRT - switchover lanes .... no road dividers Encourag
enatural co-operation
Alan Howes
Alan.Howes at cbuchanan.co.uk
Fri Mar 23 17:57:03 JST 2007
Each to their own opinion ...
--
Alan Howes
Associate Transport Planner
Colin Buchanan
4 St Colme Street
Edinburgh EH3 6AA
Scotland
email: alan.howes at cbuchanan.co.uk <mailto:alan.howes at cbuchanan.co.uk>
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From: sustran-discuss-bounces+alan.howes=cbuchanan.co.uk at list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+alan.howes=cbuchanan.co.uk at list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Martin Cassini
Sent: 20 March 2007 18:03
To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport; sri at pn1.vsnl.net.in
Subject: [sustran] Re: BRT - switchover lanes .... no road dividers. Encouragenatural co-operation
Without seeing the location(s) it's difficult to say, but in principle I'm against intervention and enforcement. The Western rules of the road (contrived distinctions between major and minor roads, and main road priority irrespective who was there first, then lights causing aggression and needless delay) have helped kill more people than have died in two world wars. Instead I prefer to trust good design and human nature (Hans Monderman and shared space). What if you let all road-users use all available road space, but encourage private or commercial drivers to give way when they saw a bus approaching? To help warn of their approach, buses could use dipped headlights.
Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: Sujit Patwardhan <mailto:sujit at vsnl.com>
To: sri at pn1.vsnl.net.in ; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport <mailto:sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 5:44 AM
Subject: [sustran] Re: BRT - switchover lanes .... alternatively,why not run on the other side of the road-divider?
20 March 2007
Dear JG,
I thought you had seen the BRT being implemented (even if shoddily) in Pune. The dedicated bus lanes are in the central as you describe:
Traffic in India drives on the left side of a road. In the case of a divided highway, one proposal is to run the BRTS in a separate lane (taking the place of the "Fast Lane", i.e. to the right hand edge of the left half of the road.
This means that entry and exit from the busses would have to be to and from fresh islands in the road (since doors are on the left side of the bus) or else fresh doors would have to be cut into the bus, so that passengers can board and get off onto a central island..
Do take a look. The design is good and will eventually start working but it seems such a waste to execute it so badly as Pune Municipal Corporation is doing. Already people traveling in these BRT buses are experiencing something unique - seeing the buses move faster than other auto vehicles on the road, and that's how it should be.
Regards,
--
Sujit
On 3/17/07, Prof J G Krishnayya <sri at giaspn01.vsnl.net.in> wrote:
Just an idea. Please shoot it down (with reasons) if it is impractical for India .
Traffic in India drives on the left side of a road. In the case of a divided highway, one proposal is to run the BRTS in a separate lane (taking the place of the "Fast Lane", i.e. to the right hand edge of the left half of the road.
This means that entry and exit from the busses would have to be to and from fresh islands in the road (since doors are on the left side of the bus) or else fresh doors would have to be cut into the bus, so that passengers can board and get off onto a central island..
Actually, for reasons of flexibility, and if these are "Long" busses, with centre doors, it seems to me to make sense to strengthen the body and cut doors out on the right side of the bus. Then a single stop or station would exist at each location for both directions.
An alternative, which I have not seen mentioned yet, is to run the BRTS busses on the WRONG SIDE OF THE ROAD. That is, busses going north would run in the grade-separated, "Fast lane" of the southbound side of the road. And busses going South would run in the fast lane of the northbound side of the divided highway. Then one would use the normal doors (on the left side of the bus), thus eliminating any need to strengthen the chassis.
Pune experience within days of the start of BRTS makes it clear that with our population density, and general attitude towards discipline in general, Grade-Separation between the normal roadway (of at least 8 inches) and the BRTS lanes, is essential to avoid many, many fatal accidents. If the BRTS lane is grade-separated, there should be no problem about the BRTS busses running in the opposite direction to the regular stream of traffic.
Contra-ideas, anyone?
J G Krishnayya
==============
Prof J G Krishnayya
Director , Systems Research Institute,
17-A Gultekdi, PUNE 411037, India
www.sripune.org Tel +91-20-2426-0323
jkrishnayya at yahoo.com Res 020-2636-3930
sri at giaspn01.vsnl.net.in Fax +91-20-2444-7902
-----Original Message-----
From: sustran-discuss-bounces+sri=pn1.vsnl.net.in at list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+sri=pn1.vsnl.net.in at list.jca.apc.org ] On Behalf Of Alan Howes
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:00 PM
To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport; edelman at greenidea.info
Subject: [sustran] Re: BRT - switchover lanes
Great minds ...
I've just been reading the organisational bits of Bina's post rather more carefully. I still don't have a feel for how much clout the CWG has - OK the Gov of Maharashtra has accepted the CWG report - but does that guarantee action (not just commissioning consultants, but committing to implementation). And on a matter of detail, Bina says -
"we at the MTSU have already submitted our report to the Government of Maharashtra- as long back as the 6th of February 2007"
and then
"The CWG Report was formally presented on the 6th of February, 2007, to all the departments ..."
So I assume the consultants have not yet been appointed. I can't see them taking less than six months to report, and I would guess at least nine months for implementation, even at Western rates of action - what price bus lanes by the end of this year?
Is the MTSU report the same as the CWG report? When was the CWG formed? Sorry to ask so many questions!
Regards, Alan
--
Alan Howes
Associate Transport Planner
Colin Buchanan
4 St Colme Street
Edinburgh EH3 6AA
Scotland
email: alan.howes at cbuchanan.co.uk <mailto:alan.howes at cbuchanan.co.uk>
tel: (0)131 226 4693 (switchboard)
(0)7952 464335 (mobile)
fax: (0)131 220 0232
www: http://www.cbuchanan.co.uk/
________________________________
From: sustran-discuss-bounces+alan.howes=cbuchanan.co.uk at list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+alan.howes=cbuchanan.co.uk at list.jca.apc.org ] On Behalf Of Brendan Finn
Sent: 16 March 2007 11:32
To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport; edelman at greenidea.info
Subject: [sustran] Re: BRT - switchover lanes
Dear Alan,
I think that's an excellent rule on three grounds :
1) It is simple and unambiguous
2) The participants always know which situation they are in, and whether they should yield. It is highly visible when a potential yield situation arises, no need for control systems.
3) The priority is to clear the bus stopping place to make room for incoming buses, so it is right that buses leaving the stopping area should have priority.
With best wishes,
Brendan.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
>From Brendan Finn, ETTS Ltd. e-mail : etts at indigo.ie tel : +353.87.2530286
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Howes <mailto:Alan.Howes at cbuchanan.co.uk>
To: edelman at greenidea.info ; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport <mailto:sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:52 AM
Subject: [sustran] Re: (NEWS) Mumbai's BRTS project turns into a joke!
I thought someone might think that! I take it what concerns you is the (two per stop) conflicts between buses moving in opposite directions?
Remember that the buses will be moving slowly as they are about to stop or are just leaving the stop. I don't know offhand what the maximum bus flows are likely to be, but I would not have thought that even in Mumbai there would be more than 120 buses per hour - correct me someone if I'm wrong (I could do a check, but it would take some time). At that level I see no problem with a simple "give way" arrangement (e.g. incoming buses always give way to leaving buses) - you could have traffic signals, but IMO that would be an unnecessary expense.
Regards, Alan
--
Alan Howes
Associate Transport Planner
Colin Buchanan
4 St Colme Street
Edinburgh EH3 6AA
Scotland
email: alan.howes at cbuchanan.co.uk
tel: (0)131 226 4693 (switchboard)
(0)7952 464335 (mobile)
fax: (0)131 220 0232
www: http://www.cbuchanan.co.uk/
-----Original Message-----
From: sustran-discuss-bounces+alan.howes=cbuchanan.co.uk at list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+alan.howes=cbuchanan.co.uk at list.jca.apc.org ] On Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory
Sent: 16 March 2007 10:44
To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport
Subject: [sustran] Re: (NEWS) Mumbai's BRTS project turns into a joke!
Alan Howes wrote:
> [...] The problem, however, with with-flow bus lanes placed immediately to the left of the median is that, assuming bus stops are on the median, the bus doors are on the wrong side (an expensive problem to fix). MMRDA explained to me an ingenious proposal for overcoming this - at the stops the buses would swap sides, crossing the median through a gap immediately before and after the stop. This sounds perfectly feasible to me - the only potential problem I foresee is that the necessary gaps will be used (illegally) by other traffic, or even pedestrians (who get a pretty raw deal in terms of getting across the road).
>
That seems really dangerous unless there are electronic safety systems, etc. Am I missing something?
- T
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edelman at greenidea.eu
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