[asia-apec 705] Cda. Hansard, Sept. 24/98 re: APEC '97

[Sharon R.A. Scharfe]

House of Commons
Ottawa, CANADA

Canadian Parliament
Official Hansard (and translation) (English version only)
>From Proceedings on Thursday, September 24, 1998

...

ORAL QUESTIONS

APEC SUMMIT 

Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the Prime
Minister is stonewalling Canadians with respect to his actions at the APEC
summit. Police notes continue to connect the Prime Minister with the
suppression of student protesters. Now an eye witness, who  as
the Prime Minister's guest, claims that she saw him personally involved in
directing security ativities. Canadians want the truth. 

Will the government now revise its position that the Prime Minister was
never personally involved in police actions at the APEC summit? 

Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the allegations
referred to by the Leader of the Opposition were made by a guest, Ms.
Sparrow, who admitted that she could not  hear what the Prime Minister was
saying. 

The Prime Minister categorically denied the allegations of Ms. Sparrow, so I
think that should end that aspect of this matter. 

Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, whatever
happened to the concept of ministerial accountability? Whatever happened to
the concept of prime ministerial acceptance of responsibility? 

The Prime Minister passes the buck to the police. He passes the buck to his
staff. He blames the protesters and now his spin doctors are smearing a
witness. 

Why does the Prime Minister continue to refuse to tell Canadians what he
told the RCMP and his staff to do? 

Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Prime
Minister has been in the House every day until today answering questions
over and over again. 

I might add that the student protesters themselves asked the RCMP Public
Complaints Commission, an arm's length civilian body, to look into their
concerns. The complaints commission is proceeding to do this. 

Why is the Leader of the Opposition trying to undermine the work of this
reputable body set up by parliament? 

Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the RCMP
Internal Complaints Commission is the only commission looking into the APEC
summit event right now. That inquiry cannot investigate politicians. It
cannot investigate bureaucrats. Even if the commission subpoenas documents
from the Prime Minister he can withhold them if he so chooses. The
commission is toothless as long as the Prime Minister continues to stonewall
its activities. 

Will the government commit today to personally have the Prime Minister
co-operate with the
commission, including the provision of all documents and appearing as a
witness if called? 

Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the government is
providing material to the commission. The commission has not asked the Prime
Minister to appear, so that is perfectly hypothetical at this point. 

I again say to the Leader of the Opposition that he should not be
undermining the work of the arm's length civilian commission which has been
asked by the student protesters themselves to look into the matter. 

Why is he trying to prevent the commission from doing the work the
protesters themselves are seeking if he is on their side? He is not acting
on their side. He is not acting for human rights. He is just making a lot of
noise. 

Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, this
government says “Let the Public Complaints Commission work. We will get out
the truth”. Let me tell members— 

Some hon. members: Hear, hear. 

Mr. John Reynolds: Mr. Speaker, they love it now, but they hated it in 1986
when the bill was introduced. 

The present minister of heritage said in 1986 “The only reason you like the
Public Complaints Commission now is that your government is in trouble”, and
that was the government of the day. 

The reason this government likes the Public Complaints Commission now is
that it is in trouble and it is the government of the day. 

Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have to thank
the hon. member for reminding us that when he was a Conservative supporting
the Mulroney government that  government brought this measure to this House.
It was adopted by this parliament. His contradiction at this time of what he
was supporting then shows that the attack on the commission is totally
unwarranted. 

He should give the commission the support now that he gave it then because
it is ready to do the job for the protesters that the protesters themselves
want to see done. 

Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
Acting Prime Minister should realize that I was not there then. I was not a
member of the Mulroney government. 

I want to quote for him again what the present heritage minister said about
that bill in debate. She said that the commission would be hamstrung and
only be allowed to have internal investigations  and review evidence, but
would not be allowed conduct its own investigation. 

Members of this government in opposition did not like this bill. They did
not like the aspect that it is not independent and it cannot investigate the
government. Why have they changed their minds? 

Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I want to
apologize to the hon. member for not recalling exactly when he left. I guess
his aura hung over the government at the time this bill— 

The Speaker: Colleagues, we all heard the question and I know we would like
to hear the answer. The hon. Deputy Prime Minister. 

Hon. Herb Gray: Mr. Speaker, I think the best thing to do is to let the
commission do its work. Once it makes its report, if there are valid
complaints to be made, then they can be brought up and dealt with at that time. 

Right now the words of the statute give the commission the powers to look
into complaints, to investigate, to hear evidence and to make public reports. 

Let the commission do its work. That is what the student protesters are
asking. Why is the opposition trying to undermine the concerns of the
student protesters instead of letting them have the process they themselves
have asked for? 

[Translation] 

Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, to date, the
Prime Minister has denied all involvement in the APEC affair. 

However, we learn that a witness saw him becoming personally and directly
involved in security matters at the opening of the summit. 

How should we interpret the behaviour of the Prime Minister, who was still
saying at thestart of the
week that he knew nothing, as more and more testimony and facts incriminate
him? 

Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Prime
Minister has categorically
denied the testimony of this so called witness. 

The witness claims not to have heard what the Prime Minister was actually
saying at the time.
Therefore the allegations made by the leader of the third party are totally
erroneous. 

Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, we know what a
denial from the Prime Minister is worth; he said he would abolish the GST.
His denial is no reassurance. 

In the light of the latest facts and given that we know the Prime Minister
was personally involved at the heart of the action, given that he
“clennetted” a demonstrator across the river, and that he was the one giving
the RCMP orders, how much credibility can the RCMP investigation have if the
Prime Minister is refusing to testify? 

Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the commission
did not ask the Prime Minister to testify. Second, the commission
established by this Parliament works at arm's length from the government and
the RCMP. 

So let us let the commission do its work. This is the request of the
students who submitted their complaints to this commission. 

Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Prime
Minister said, and I quote: “I am a populist and I can even defend myself on
occasion”. 
 
Unfortunately, the Prime Minister has lost control of himself more than once. 

Is it not a bit of a concern to Canadians to have a Prime Minister who
completely loses control of himself in tense situations? 

Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is the Bloc
Quebecois that has completely lost control, with its misguided questions today. 

Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, does the Prime Minister
realize that, by engaging in conduct so inappropriate to his office, he
brings discredit on all Canadians, purely for  the purpose of keeping a
paranoid dictator happy? 

Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I wonder who
prepared that question. Was it Mr. Landry or Mr. Parizeau? 

[English] 

Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister and the
Solicitor General keep dodging our questions by hiding behind the Public
Complaints Commission. 

But how can the commission do its job and get at the truth if the Prime
Minister is not to appear and if the PMO has destroyed crucial documents?
Why the cover-up? 

Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the
NDP is making an allegation which, as far as I am aware, is not founded on
fact. Second, the commission has not asked the Prime Minister to appear.
Third, the commission was set up by this Parliament. It was given powers by
this Parliament. There has been no indication in any way that it will not do
the job expected of it by this Parliament and, more important, the job
expected of it by the student protesters who have lodged their complaints
before that commission. 

Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Student protesters, Mr. Speaker, who are
not going to get any legal representation. 

Yesterday the Prime Minister refused to answer questions about the
destruction of APEC documents. Today we learned that former operations
director, Jean Carle, has admitted to destroying documents pertaining to
Spray-PEC. 

What is the PMO hiding? Who are they trying to protect? 

Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): The first thing I have to do,
Mr. Speaker, is to look into the accuracy of the hon. member's assertions
and innuendo. After I check into them either I myself or the Prime Minister
will reply more fully. 

Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, ministerial permits to allow
a general and six of Suharto's commandos into Canada were issued the same
day that Indonesians applied for them,
November 19, 1997. These permits were issued after the Indonesians asked the
RCMP if it was okay to shoot Canadian protesters, and a week before the APEC
summit. 

Could the Minister of Immigration tell us when or if her officials informed
the RCMP that she issued these permits and will she table any documents
related to these permits in this House? 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
question of security around the APEC summit falls within the mandate of the
RCMP. Therefore it is the subject of a Public Complaints Commission
investigation. We have to protect the integrity of that investigation to get
to the truth, despite the fact that many would have that integrity
questioned here in the House. 

Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the
minister responsible for issuing permits into Canada, not the Solicitor
General, and it is not about the Public Complaints Commission. 

We know that permits to let Suharto's commandos into Canada were issued.
Under the law only the Minister of Immigration can issue them. 

These permits were issued after the RCMP were asked by the Indonesians if it
was okay to shoot Canadians. 

On what basis did the Minister of Immigration issue the permits? Did the
Prime Minister's office ask her to issue them? Did her office immediately
inform the RCMP that the permits had been issued? 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I have
said this week many times, the reality is that security questions fall
within the purview of the RCMP. Since the RCMP is  the subject of a public
complaints commission inquiry, which was asked for by the protesters
themselves, it would be imprudent, in fact inappropriate, for me to do
anything that might influence politically the outcome of that investigation. 

Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, quoting from today's
Vancouver Sun, an article by Peter O'Neil says “the commissioner of the
Public Complaints Commission says he is still trying to obtain documents
from the Prime Minister's Office, the Privy Council and the Department  of
Foreign Affairs”. 

We remember Somalia. We remember the Krever inquiry. We remember the
destruction of documents, and we did not receive an assurance from the Prime
Minister or the solicitor general yesterday that there would be no
destruction of documents. 

Will we have that assurance today? Yes or no. 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon.
member has my assurance that at this point there has been no indication of
any problems in that regard. 

In fact the council for the commission very specifically said there have
been no problems getting access to any information requested. 

Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, that is a pretty cute
answer coming from the solicitor general. It speaks to the whole issue of
the level of the inquiry that is going on. 

There is no level of inquiry. It is under the Public Complaints Commission,
and I quote from the RCMP Act “They only may look into any member or any
other person employed under the authority of this act”. 

That is what the Public Complaints Commission can look into. It is strictly
a snow job that the solicitor general is doing the cover-up for this— 

The Speaker: The hon. solicitor general. 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this
inquiry has exactly the same powers as the kind of inquiry the hon. member
was demanding, very specifically the powers of a board of inquiry. 

                                    *  *  *

APEC SUMMIT 

Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the
Deputy Prime Minister. Today we heard how Canada brought honour to itself as
a leader in the battle to end apartheid, a system deplored for its violent
contempt of human rights. But at APEC the Prime Minister brought dishonour
when he trampled on the rights of Canadian students to welcome a dictator
deplored for his contempt of both human rights and human life. 

Will the government come clean on APEC and reassure the young people of
Canada that we are a defender, not an abuser, of human rights? 

Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have to reject
the premise of the hon. member's question. The Prime Minister is a vigorous
spokesman for human rights. He was the chief protagonist of the charter of
rights and freedoms. This should be recognized and the Prime Minister should
be praised for his continuous defence of human rights in Canada and around
the world. 

Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker, for a Prime Minister
who talks so much about human rights, his actions in Vancouver speak louder
than words. Students opposed to APEC were detained without cause, violently
attacked and are expected to defend themselves with neither funding nor
support against a battalion of backroom government lawyers. 

Will the Prime Minister and the government do the right thing and provide
the legal representation for students attacked at APEC? 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is
because we respect due process that we would like to see it work and let the
public complaints commission do its job as the students have requested. 

Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister says it
is more effective to engage dictators than to isolate them. The whole idea
with engagement is that by engaging dictators in a dialogue, we can teach
them something about human rights. My question for the Prime Minister is did
Suharto learn about human rights while he was in Canada or did the Prime
Minister take lessons from Suharto in systematic abuse of power and oppression? 

Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I reject the
unwarranted premise of the hon. member's question. 

I know it has been publicly reported that both the Prime Minister and the
Minister of Foreign Affairs raised the human rights issue with Suharto in
Indonesia itself. That took a lot of guts. They should  be praised for that
and their continued defence of human rights in Canada and around the world.   
...

APEC SUMMIT 

Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, PC): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the
Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. In order to enter Canada, Suharto's
soldiers first had to obtain the minister's permission. They had her blessing. 

Will the minister continue to state in the House that there was no abuse of
power, when it was she who, under the Prime Minister's authority, gave known
criminals a licence to kill on Canadian soil? What is the truth? 

[English] 

The Speaker: I think we are starting to reach a little bit much in our
questions. I would like to give you as much room as I can but I think we are
getting to the end. 

If there is an answer from the solicitor general, we will hear it. 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I can only
repeat that the security arrangements around APEC were the responsibility of
the RCMP. Canadians have a system at play right now to get to the truth of
these incidents. 

I wish hon. members would let us get to the truth through the instrument
that was designed by this House out of respect for this House. 

                                    *  *  *
...


[end] 
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