[sustran] Indian metros the 90-10 rule revisited

[Cornie Huizenga]

Dear Sujit,

Thanks for sharing this. This discussion  reminds me of an earlier
discussion on urban transport in India. It was the urban development
minister who mentioned that 90% of he road space was allocated to 10% of the
users.

I think that there is an imminent danger that 90% of the funds for urban
public transport will be spent on metros who will not take up more than 10%
of the trips :-)

The ongoing debate on metros will shape urban transport  and the Indian
cities to a great extent.  Good luck!

Cornie

On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 8:36 PM, Sujit Patwardhan <patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com
> wrote:

> 1 October 2010
>
>
>
> Dear Adhiraj,
> This makes imminent sense to me, but for common citizens the attraction for
> Metro grows with each passing day.............
> As strong advocates of Public Transport we want to be fair in judging the
> metro and not damn it out of hand but so far the case for a Metro seems
> unconvincing. We had organized a National Round Table Meeting on Metro Rail
> in Pune on 21st ans 22nd July.
> The Report from that programme is down-loadable from the Parisar website.
> Here is the link:
> http://www.parisar.org/activities/events/122-the-city-and-the-metro.html
> We will apprecaite your comments and suggestions.
> Many thanks
> --
> Sujit
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 5:51 PM, Dr Adhiraj Joglekar <
> adhiraj.joglekar at googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > The only alternative available...... in medicine (being a doctor) there
> is
> > a
> > dictum, you only need one exception to the rule to disprove a dogmatic
> > belief / theory.
> >
> > London tubes do 3.5 million passenger trips per day, London buses carry
> > double this number. And its a traditional bus service with handful of bus
> > lanes.
> >
> > Same is true with Mumbai buses considering they do not cover the length
> of
> > tracks beyond corporation limits as the trains do. BEST does 4.5 million
> > trips a day in a geographically smaller area. Considering that in Mumbai
> > population has shot to 20 million (against London's 8m) they have half
> the
> > number of buses than in London and no bus lanes. Those keen may look up
> > Chennai buses and their numbers. Bangalore also has a bus service
> managing
> > 3m trips a day.
> >
> > In Mumbai 60 odd flyovers (which are no use to buses) have made life a
> hell
> > by trying to make way for more cars. Mumbai actually has the sea link as
> > its
> > best TDM example, the sea link will come to a halt if its use was FREE.
> >
> > The bottom line is to free up our roads and use buses - they offer a door
> > to
> > door service as against trains and even BRT which need dedicated
> corridors
> > -
> > it takes me 20 minutes walking to get to stations (it takes 8 minutes on
> > average to walk 500 meters) for my daily commute in London by train while
> > bus stops are just outside on main street. Even after changing buses and
> > respecting 3 dozen signals on road, the bus on average is only 10 minutes
> > more. Halve the cars and the bus would beat the train!!
> >
> > Further, our city planners and slum redevelopment authorities want to
> place
> > half a million daily wage earners who live and work in their shanties of
> > Dharavi producing $1 billion worth of turnover every year in to communist
> > style matchbox flats in vertical estates (which ironically are being
> > demolished in UK in some places). This would free up land for luxury
> flats
> > for the neo rich and double population of Dharavi. More crucially
> > businesses
> > may relocate and suddenly what was a sustainable model (bus for the lack
> of
> > sanitation) changes to people being forced to commute on so called
> elevated
> > metro trains.
> >
> > Cheers.
> >
> > AJ
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 1 October 2010 03:43, AD <banmt at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Mr. Padiyar,
> > >
> > > You wrote "According to global standards for rail based public
> > > transport, this is the only alternative available for meeting the
> demand
> > > - Tokyo, Hong Kong...".I thought some BRT systems if planned properly
> can
> > > technically get the same capacity as rail-based public transport.
> > >
> > > For me, which technology (subway, light rail, BRT) is used is not that
> > > important
> > > because they are all mass transit. What government in a developing
> > country
> > > should concern is how to use as less as possible money on mass transit
> > > option
> > > (of course with the same capacity) so that the extra money can be used
> to
> > > invest
> > > in improving pedestrian condition, which actually is the underlying
> > > prerequisite
> > > for any bus/rail trip.
> > >
> > >
> > > And also, as mentioned by Lee Schipper, any of these mass transit has
> to
> > > compete
> > > with motorcycles (or in other words - convenience). Therefore by taking
> > the
> > > existing road space for its busways, BRT does the job better than its
> > > counterparts: subway or elevated rail.
> > >
> > > With best regards,
> > >
> > > AD.
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Lee Schipper <schipper at wri.org>
> > > To: K P Padiyar <kppadiyar at gmail.com>;
> sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> > > Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 12:52:02 AM
> > > Subject: [sustran] Re: First urban railway route in Hanoi under
> > > construction
> > >
> > > I think it is worth mentioning that Hanoi has at least twice the
> > > ownership rate of two-wheelers of any city in India, more than 1 two
> > > wheeler per household. That means that any urban rail way or BRT (one
> of
> > > each is under development) has to compete with one of the most
> motorized
> > > populations in the entire world. Here is a bit of background from my
> > > EMBARQ days.
> > > http://www.embarq.org/en/our-work/publications/hanoi-vietnam
> > > Commuting distances are relatively short, one reason why the
> > > conventional bus system started 10 years ago and two wheelers are so
> > > popular, not to mention conventional bicycles and even more
> conventional
> > > feet. There is a master plan for developing more distant suburbs where
> > > an urban rail network could be useful, but that may depend on how the
> > > authorities deal with the cost of two wheeler fuel and whether there is
> > > a sensible way of charging for increasingly crowded road space in the
> > > main parts of Hanoi.
> > >
> > >
> > > Lee Schipper, Ph.D.
> > > Project Scientist, Global Metropolitan Studies, UC Berkeley
> > > Senior Research Engineer, Precourt Energy Efficiency Center, Stanford
> > > Univ.
> > > phone +1 510 642 6889
> > > fax      +1 510 642 6061
> > > cell for emergencies +1 202 262 7476
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org
> > > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper<sustran-discuss-bounces%2Bschipper>
> <sustran-discuss-bounces%2Bschipper>
> > <sustran-discuss-bounces%2Bschipper>
> > > =wri.org at list.jca.apc.org] On
> > > Behalf Of K P Padiyar
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 10:44 AM
> > > To: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> > > Subject: [sustran] Re: First urban railway route in Hanoi under
> > > construction
> > >
> > > Dear All,
> > >
> > > Even though I have subscribed to this group since 2005, I have not
> > > participated in their discussions so far. With my background of more
> > > than 16 years of my service life in operating maintaining, planning and
> > > designing suburban rail services of Indian Railways in Mumbai which
> > > today carries nearly 7 million passengers daily on 5 HRT corridors of
> > > which two carry main line passenger and freight traffic also. Design
> > > capacity of these corridors is 1.2 million for dedicated corridors and
> > > half that for mainline corridors, I felt emboldened to muscle in on the
> > > august array of transport specialists on this issue.
> > >
> > > According to Demografia 2008, Hanoi is the second largest city of
> > > Vietnam with a population of 3 million with average population density
> > > of 154.5 persons/ha. According to global standards for rail based
> public
> > > transport, this is the only alternative available for meeting the
> demand
> > > - Tokyo, Hong Kong. Mumbai Moscow. (Dr. Kenworthy's work for UITP and
> WB
> > > in 1990s.). Hanoi is planning for a capacity of  28000 pphpd which
> works
> > > out as 467 000 trips/day which is low compared to likely demand with
> CBD
> > > densities (Job +
> > > population) exceeding 300 as in Mumbai where Mumbai Island has a
> density
> > > of 800/ha.
> > >
> > > Mumbai also had difficulties in acquiring land for Railways which was
> > > solved by promulgating TDR for the entire Mumbai Metropolitan Region
> > > with an estimated population of 21 million (17 million in 2001, 2011
> > > census results are not yet out). It was an innovative solution first
> > > issued by local State Government in 1991 and now copied by other metros
> > > of India. Even US is having such rules in some cities with heavy rail.
> > > Vietnam has a technical collaboration agreement with India, since it
> was
> > > was united and IR has participated in some of their projects for
> > > Railways.
> > > Mumbai has a separate Joint sector Corporation Mumbai Rail Vikas
> > > Corporation undertaking Railway component of Mumbai Urban Transport
> > > Projects Jointly funder by IBRD, Indian Government (through IR) and
> > > Maharashtra Government.
> > > They are available at  www.mrvc.indianrail.gov.in   Sanctioned
> projects
> > > under execution are about 2 billion dollars.
> > >
> > > Members of the group needing additional information on Indian high
> > > capacity public transport systems  can contact me and I will try my
> best
> > > to get it from original sources. IR uses wide bodied coaches 3667 mm
> and
> > > Dual traction system 1500 V. D.C. (under replacement) and 25 kV single
> > > phase 50 Hz system in Mumbai and other metropolitan areas. However
> Hanoi
> > > project as per data on the site quoted in the letter, mentions Chinese
> > > Government's aid for the project.
> > >
> > > Ho Chi Minh city in Vietnam has recently got Japanese aid for a Metro
> > > Rail System Project (Financed by the Japan Special Fund) under ADB
> aegis
> > > www.adb.org/projects/project.asp?id=39500.
> > >
> > > With regards.
> > >
> > > K. P. Padiyar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------
> > > From: "AD" <banmt at yahoo.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 5:56 PM
> > > To: <sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
> > > Subject: [sustran] First urban railway route in Hanoi under
> construction
> > >
> > > > Source:
> > > >
> http://english.vietnamnet.vn/social/201009/First-urban-railway-route-i
> > > > n-Hanoi-under-construction-937891/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Looking forward to see the fare and wonder how could they make it
> more
> > >
> > > > tempted than that of riding a motorcycle for people.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> > > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the
> > > real
> > > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> > > >
> > > > ================================================================
> > > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> > > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> > > countries
> > > > (the 'Global South').
> > > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the
> real
> > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> > >
> > > ================================================================
> > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> countries
> > > (the 'Global South').
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the
> real
> > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> > >
> > > ================================================================
> > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> > > equitable
> > > and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the
> > 'Global
> > > South').
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the
> real
> > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> > >
> > > ================================================================
> > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> countries
> > > (the 'Global South').
> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real
> > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> >
> > ================================================================
> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> > (the 'Global South').
> >
>
>
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> *“..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment
> to destroy the city“*
>
> Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel
> Munich 1970
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sujit Patwardhan
> patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com
> sujitjp at gmail.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India
> Tel: +91 20 25537955
> Cell: +91 98220 26627
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Parisar: www.parisar.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------------------
> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real
> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
>
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> (the 'Global South').
>



-- 
Cornie Huizenga
Joint Convener
Partnership on Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport
Mobile: +86 13901949332
cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org
www.slocat.net