[sustran] Re: Why Free Public Transport is a BAD idea? - Comments

[Roger Gorham]

I agree with the sentiment expressed here by some that it depends heavily on
the local context and the objective for which "free" public transport (that
is, someone other than the user pays all the costs) is being proposed.  But
for most of the usual-suspect-objectives that people have already cited --
support a public good, bolster public transport's mode share, or reduce
private car use -- removing from the user all burden of cost-sharing will
generally prove to be ineffective.  In time-sensitive environments (e.g.
developed-country cities), free public transport will generally slow the
system down (artificial "congestion" from higher frequency of stops, more
people boarding at stops) which would further incentivize private vehicle
use. (Lloyd mentions a couple of exceptions, but these seem to be highly
niched circumstances, with minuscule mode share, I would imagine.)  In
developing country cities, the very immediate logistical problem is that
"public" transport is provided by thousands of small operators -- there is
no way to contemplate creating a "free' system under these circumstances
without generating a myriad of other problems that would be too horrible to
think about.  So the larger question is how to transform these systems into
more manageable, sustainable, and organized public tranpsort delivery
systems, which is what we are all grappling with.

In short, "user-doensn't-pay" systems may be ok in a limited number of
circumstances to meet specific objectives, but it should not be an abstract
goal we should be striving for.


On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 9:07 AM, Todd Edelman <edelman at greenidea.eu> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Implementing fare-free use of collective or individual public transport
> is quite context-specific. There are many current metro systems in the
> U.S, Europe etc. which could not handle the extra burden without massive
> investment and/or shift to home working, bicycles and so on.... but then
> again many public bicycle systems are nearly fare-free as a way to
> promote cycling, so why not the same for public transport systems which
> are new or have the capacity? The 30min fare-free model for public bikes
> can be inspiration for further fare-free travel using collective means,
> but of course only in dense urban areas. (I am not advocating for fare
> income to made up by advertising deals).
>
> Bottom line, public transport provision is a major part of any developed
> or developing economy, and it seems unfair or silly to look for some/too
> much fare income there whilst huge amounts of money are spent on areas
> outside the mobility or urban livability sectors, such as on military
> arms. Can we please make sure that the question to ask here is not
> "Buses or bikepaths?" but "Buses or bombs?"
>
> - T
>
>  On 09/07/10 14:27, Carlosfelipe Pardo wrote:
> > Maybe the problem is the either/or of free or full costs, and not
> > thinking of options between the two and progress towards the second. I
> > propose the following:
> >
> > - Charge road users as close as possible to the real costs of their
> > car/motorcycle use and earmark it for public transport
> > - Do your best to reduce as much as possible the price of public
> > transport operation (or increase frequencies etc) by use of the funds
> > collected via polluter pays in cars etc.
> >
> > Maybe at some point it will be possible to have zero cost for public
> > transport use?
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Carlosfelipe Pardo
> >
> > On 09/07/2010 07:08 a.m., Lee Schipper wrote:
> >
> >> I disagree with Lloyd on the analogy. Public transport systems have very
> high running costs/variable costs. While it is not free to maintain
> cycleways or sidewalks, costs are small. And many of us DO advocate charging
> for using roads!
> >>
> >> Lee Schipper, Ph.D
> >> Project Scientist
> >> Global Metropolitan Studies
> >>
> >> 2614 Dwight Way 2nd floor
> >> University of California Berkeley
> >> CA 94720-1782 USA
> >>
> >> TEL +1 510 642 6889
> >> FAX +1 510 642 6061
> >> CELL +1 202 262 7476
> >> skype: mrmeter
> >> http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/
> >>
> >> Senior Research Engineer
> >> Precourt Energy Efficiency Center
> >> Stanford University
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org[mailto:
> sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper <sustran-discuss-bounces%2Bschipper>=
> wri.org at list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Lloyd Wright
> >> Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 3:48 AM
> >> To: 'eric britton'; Sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Why Free Public Transport is a BAD idea? -
> Comments
> >>
> >> While I am somewhat neutral on this topic, I would note that many of the
> arguments put forth would apply equally to sidewalks, cycle ways, public
> parks, public toilets, etc.
> >>
> >> And yet, I doubt most of us would advocate charging a fee for use of
> these (although there are cities that do charge for access to parks and
> toilets).
> >>
> >> We don't generally advocate charging a fee for using the sidewalk
> because it is viewed as a public good.  And hopefully we all support walking
> as public policy (as well as cycling and public transport).
> >>
> >> I am struck by the fact that in many cities with free public transport,
> the Armageddon suggested in some of the comments does not happen.  The
> systems are well maintained and operated.  There are still pedestrians and
> cyclists.
> >> And they do not become too crowded because they are sized to meet the
> demand, which should be a design principle regardless of the fare level.
> >>
> >> The free transport business model can also be sustainable.  For example,
> Orlando (FL) has a very nice free inner city BRT service paid for by fees on
> private vehicles (which has a nice bit of justice to it).  Miami has a truly
> wonderful free People Mover.
> >>
> >> Obviously, the examples from Florida and Belgium are not representative
> of what would happen in developing Asia.  But I am not sure that free public
> transport is out of the question for these contexts.
> >>
> >> And hopefully, we can continue to use sidewalks, cycle ways, parks, and
> toilets before the economists demand a strict application of user/polluter
> pays.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Lloyd
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+lwright=vivacities.org at list.jca.apc.org
> >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+lwright<sustran-discuss-bounces%2Blwright>
> =vivacities.org at list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of eric britton
> >> Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 17:53
> >> To: Sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> >> Subject: [sustran] Why Free Public Transport is a BAD idea? - Comments
> >>
> >> New comment on your post "Why Free Public Transport is a bad idea?"
> >> Author : Anzir Boodoo (IP: 91.107.131.247 , 91.107.131.247) E-mail :
> ab at transcience.co.uk
> >>
> >>
> >> Eric,
> >>
> >> I think you are forgetting a couple of other major reasons...
> >>
> >> 5. Free public transport creates modal shift from walking (and possibly
> cycling). For example, the free city centre bus in Leeds (UK) has mostly
> replaced trips on foot, not trips by taxi from the railway station (as
> >> intended) or even short hop trips by bus. Free public transport can thus
> be a loser on public health grounds (people should be walking and cycling
> more), and CO2 emissions (which are higher by bus than on foot)
> >>
> >> 6. Free public transport may encourage people to travel more, since the
> only cost is their time. This will also increase individuals' level of
> emissions, not to mention pollution from diesel buses (as they will stop
> more and we will need more of them)
> >>
> >> 7. Free public transport may encourage people to use their city centres
> more than local suburban centres (I don't have any evidence for this!), or
> large out of town hypermarkets instead of their local suburban centres or
> local shops.
> >>
> >> 8. Free public transport is unfair on the "polluter pays principle". All
> transport produces CO2 emissions, from breathing when you walk or cycle, to
> the fuel use of motorised transport. Are we allowing people to burn fuel and
> not pay for the damage this causes?
> >>
> >> 9. It's well known anecdotally (from observation, if not from studies)
> that people value things they pay for, and not necessarily things they get
> for free (see "the tragedy of the commons"). What about respect for drivers,
> vehicles and infrastructure?
> >>
> >> Before you ask, I'm all for cheaper public transport, and believe we
> should be subsudising it to an extent, but I don't think making it free is
> the answer. I know the mayors and officials of towns like Hasselt in Belgium
> (where buses are free) would disagree...
> >>
> >> You can see all comments on this post here:
> >>
> http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2010/07/07/why-free-public-transport-is-a-
> >> bad-idea/#comments
> >>
> >>
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>
>
> --
>
> Todd Edelman
> Green Idea Factory,
> a member of the OPENbike team
>
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>
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