[sustran] Re: Why Free Public Transport is a BAD idea? - Comments

[Karthik Rao Cavale]

Hi,

There are times when implementing fare-collection would make the system
costlier than not implementing fare-collection. Collecting fares needs
investment in fare-collection machines, but it also makes entry and exit
time-consuming (as only the front door of the bus can be used). In places
where the buses make short trips with a lot of people getting in and out at
each stop, sometimes fare-collection is simply not worth it.

A good example is my Rutgers university bus system, which does not collect
fares (of course the money comes from the fee we pay). For the 5-10 mile
trips it makes, fare collection would significantly impact the time taken to
complete one trip.

But I also remember my IIT madras bus system, which had a 1 Rupee fare. To
collect the fare, they had to keep a conductor - who could have otherwise
been more gainfully employed as a driver. Service frequencies were terribly
low, so they could have used more drivers to up the frequency. And it is
unlikely that the fares collected even covered the costs of employing a
conductor.

As for an increase in demand, that can be managed by restricting supply. The
buses at Rutgers rarely run with a headway of more than 10 minutes, so
students are unlikely to use the bus short walkable trips of a mile or less.

I cannot speak with any certainty about other situations where this would
work, but for short trips with a lot of ridership, I think fare-free systems
do make sense, even from a strictly economic viewpoint.

karthik

On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 9:07 AM, Todd Edelman <edelman at greenidea.eu> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Implementing fare-free use of collective or individual public transport
> is quite context-specific. There are many current metro systems in the
> U.S, Europe etc. which could not handle the extra burden without massive
> investment and/or shift to home working, bicycles and so on.... but then
> again many public bicycle systems are nearly fare-free as a way to
> promote cycling, so why not the same for public transport systems which
> are new or have the capacity? The 30min fare-free model for public bikes
> can be inspiration for further fare-free travel using collective means,
> but of course only in dense urban areas. (I am not advocating for fare
> income to made up by advertising deals).
>
> Bottom line, public transport provision is a major part of any developed
> or developing economy, and it seems unfair or silly to look for some/too
> much fare income there whilst huge amounts of money are spent on areas
> outside the mobility or urban livability sectors, such as on military
> arms. Can we please make sure that the question to ask here is not
> "Buses or bikepaths?" but "Buses or bombs?"
>
> - T
>
>  On 09/07/10 14:27, Carlosfelipe Pardo wrote:
> > Maybe the problem is the either/or of free or full costs, and not
> > thinking of options between the two and progress towards the second. I
> > propose the following:
> >
> > - Charge road users as close as possible to the real costs of their
> > car/motorcycle use and earmark it for public transport
> > - Do your best to reduce as much as possible the price of public
> > transport operation (or increase frequencies etc) by use of the funds
> > collected via polluter pays in cars etc.
> >
> > Maybe at some point it will be possible to have zero cost for public
> > transport use?
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Carlosfelipe Pardo
> >
> > On 09/07/2010 07:08 a.m., Lee Schipper wrote:
> >
> >> I disagree with Lloyd on the analogy. Public transport systems have very
> high running costs/variable costs. While it is not free to maintain
> cycleways or sidewalks, costs are small. And many of us DO advocate charging
> for using roads!
> >>
> >> Lee Schipper, Ph.D
> >> Project Scientist
> >> Global Metropolitan Studies
> >>
> >> 2614 Dwight Way 2nd floor
> >> University of California Berkeley
> >> CA 94720-1782 USA
> >>
> >> TEL +1 510 642 6889
> >> FAX +1 510 642 6061
> >> CELL +1 202 262 7476
> >> skype: mrmeter
> >> http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/
> >>
> >> Senior Research Engineer
> >> Precourt Energy Efficiency Center
> >> Stanford University
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org[mailto:
> sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper <sustran-discuss-bounces%2Bschipper>=
> wri.org at list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Lloyd Wright
> >> Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 3:48 AM
> >> To: 'eric britton'; Sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Why Free Public Transport is a BAD idea? -
> Comments
> >>
> >> While I am somewhat neutral on this topic, I would note that many of the
> arguments put forth would apply equally to sidewalks, cycle ways, public
> parks, public toilets, etc.
> >>
> >> And yet, I doubt most of us would advocate charging a fee for use of
> these (although there are cities that do charge for access to parks and
> toilets).
> >>
> >> We don't generally advocate charging a fee for using the sidewalk
> because it is viewed as a public good.  And hopefully we all support walking
> as public policy (as well as cycling and public transport).
> >>
> >> I am struck by the fact that in many cities with free public transport,
> the Armageddon suggested in some of the comments does not happen.  The
> systems are well maintained and operated.  There are still pedestrians and
> cyclists.
> >> And they do not become too crowded because they are sized to meet the
> demand, which should be a design principle regardless of the fare level.
> >>
> >> The free transport business model can also be sustainable.  For example,
> Orlando (FL) has a very nice free inner city BRT service paid for by fees on
> private vehicles (which has a nice bit of justice to it).  Miami has a truly
> wonderful free People Mover.
> >>
> >> Obviously, the examples from Florida and Belgium are not representative
> of what would happen in developing Asia.  But I am not sure that free public
> transport is out of the question for these contexts.
> >>
> >> And hopefully, we can continue to use sidewalks, cycle ways, parks, and
> toilets before the economists demand a strict application of user/polluter
> pays.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Lloyd
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+lwright=vivacities.org at list.jca.apc.org
> >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+lwright<sustran-discuss-bounces%2Blwright>
> =vivacities.org at list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of eric britton
> >> Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 17:53
> >> To: Sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> >> Subject: [sustran] Why Free Public Transport is a BAD idea? - Comments
> >>
> >> New comment on your post "Why Free Public Transport is a bad idea?"
> >> Author : Anzir Boodoo (IP: 91.107.131.247 , 91.107.131.247) E-mail :
> ab at transcience.co.uk
> >>
> >>
> >> Eric,
> >>
> >> I think you are forgetting a couple of other major reasons...
> >>
> >> 5. Free public transport creates modal shift from walking (and possibly
> cycling). For example, the free city centre bus in Leeds (UK) has mostly
> replaced trips on foot, not trips by taxi from the railway station (as
> >> intended) or even short hop trips by bus. Free public transport can thus
> be a loser on public health grounds (people should be walking and cycling
> more), and CO2 emissions (which are higher by bus than on foot)
> >>
> >> 6. Free public transport may encourage people to travel more, since the
> only cost is their time. This will also increase individuals' level of
> emissions, not to mention pollution from diesel buses (as they will stop
> more and we will need more of them)
> >>
> >> 7. Free public transport may encourage people to use their city centres
> more than local suburban centres (I don't have any evidence for this!), or
> large out of town hypermarkets instead of their local suburban centres or
> local shops.
> >>
> >> 8. Free public transport is unfair on the "polluter pays principle". All
> transport produces CO2 emissions, from breathing when you walk or cycle, to
> the fuel use of motorised transport. Are we allowing people to burn fuel and
> not pay for the damage this causes?
> >>
> >> 9. It's well known anecdotally (from observation, if not from studies)
> that people value things they pay for, and not necessarily things they get
> for free (see "the tragedy of the commons"). What about respect for drivers,
> vehicles and infrastructure?
> >>
> >> Before you ask, I'm all for cheaper public transport, and believe we
> should be subsudising it to an extent, but I don't think making it free is
> the answer. I know the mayors and officials of towns like Hasselt in Belgium
> (where buses are free) would disagree...
> >>
> >> You can see all comments on this post here:
> >>
> http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2010/07/07/why-free-public-transport-is-a-
> >> bad-idea/#comments
> >>
> >>
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>
>
> --
>
> Todd Edelman
> Green Idea Factory,
> a member of the OPENbike team
>
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>
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> www.greenidea.eu
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