[sustran] Re: The only good monorail, is an old monorail (maybe).

[Jains]

Eric,

The article below strengthens your point.

Alok

http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=TOINEW&BaseHref=TOIM/2010/01/30&EntityId=Ar00400&GZ=T&AppName=1&ViewMode=HTML&GZ=T
Monorail to carry less, cost more than MetroChittaranjan Tembhekar | TNN

Mumbai: The monorail, which had a show run on Republic Day, may end up as
little more than a feeder to the Metro and suburban trains, experts fear.
This is because the monorail can pack in only a total of 560 passengers in
four coaches, compared to the metro’s capacity of 1,500. Moreover, the
monorail’s doors will refuse to close if the number of passengers in any of
the coaches exceeds their capacity of 140.
    The Metro too will remain stationary till its doors shut but it may not
be so sensitive to overloading. And more interesting, the metro will not
only carry more than double the passengers of the mono, but at a much lesser
cost. The cost of the 12 km Versova-Andheri-Ghatkopar Metro rail project is
Rs 2,365 crore while that of 19 km mono rail between Jacob Circle and
Chembur via Wadala is Rs 2,460 crore.
    “The carrying capacity is higher in the Metro and the monorail is more
like a feeder to the Metro and suburban trains. Monorail won’t work unless
it is properly inter-connected with other modes of transport. For low
commuter density and congested areas, the bus transit system could have been
a good option,” said urban transportation expert Beena Balkrishnan.
    Agreed another public transport expert Ashok Datar: “We should not
consider only the per kilometre cost of the monorail or the Metro but the
cost per kilometre per thousand passengers during peak and non-peak hours.
If all benefits are considered, the Metro may give better results.”
    However, Mumbai Metropolitan Region Development Authority (MMRDA)
officials pointed out that the monorail was being built through congested
but low-commuter-density areas which would otherwise have been untouched by
suburban rail, buses and the Metro rail too. The Metro, on the other hand,
was being planned for high-commuter-potential routes where ample space is
available for construction and hence it would be wrong to compare the two
modes of transport. The MMRDA plans to build four mono routes —one in Mumbai
and others in Thane, Kalyan and Bhiwandi— and nine Metro routes.


On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Eric Britton <eric.britton at ecoplan.org>wrote:

> The only good monorail, is an old monorail (maybe). Schwebebahn Wuppertal
> since 1901->
>
>
>
> Monorails? There is something almost touching about avarice and stupidity
> when they get together and blatantly hang out there for all to see.
>
>
>
> I first looked at monorails for city transport of all kinds of types and
> stripes back in 1970, and on a number of grounds they looked awful then and
> they still do today. I have my own long list on this, but if you wish we
> might have some fun starting a collaborative list under the title of
> something very elegant such as "Why monorails suck".
>
>
>
> I am amazed that these discussions are still taking place and that there
> are
> cities and eventual sponsors that take them seriously. There is a monorail
> mafia that shows up wherever at the drop of a hat to show their stuff,
> often
> offering generous credits and other forms of compensation to see that their
> job gets done. I haven't made an effort to keep up. But I do remember some
> recent salvoes in parts of India, also Bogota, São Paulo, Curitiba, and a
> certain number of US cities that just don't know when to let a bad idea go.
> (Check out the historical stuff on this in the Wikipedia. Pretty good.)
>
>
>
> What I don't understand is why they are not simply laughed at and set aside
> for more serous things.
>
>
>
> But then again, perhaps there is something that I fail to understand.
>
>
>
> Educate me.
>
>
>
> Eric Britton
>
>
>
> PS. Here's a nice exercise for you if you wish to dig a bit. Go to the New
> Mobility Partnerships at www.newmobility.org and on the top menu click
> Knoogle (yes, it's an ugly word) and once there pop in "monorail". This
> will
> then take you on a lightning  survey of more than eight hundred sources,
> projects and pogroms looking at sustainable and at times unsustainable
> transport in countries around the world. Interesting.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Read World Streets Today at  <http://www.worldstreets.org/>
> http://www.worldstreets.org/
>
> New Mobility Partnerships  –  <http://www.newmobility.org/>
> http://www.newmobility.org
>
> 8/10 rue Joseph Bara,     75006 Paris,  France, Europe
>
> +331 7550 3788  eric.britton(at)newmobility.org   Skype: newmobility
>
>
>
> On Behalf Of Walter Hook
> Sent: Friday, 29 January, 2010 00:43
> To: bruun at seas.upenn.edu
> Cc: Eric Britton; TheNotSoSustainableTransportLibrary at yahoogroups.com;
> Sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> Subject: Re: Mumbai monorail project looks to reduce CO2 emissions ???
>
>
>
> eric,
>
> we are developing these parameters for BRT also, and there is also a give
> back on co2 from construction, though usually its smaller, and if you need
> to build the elevated BRT (like they are doing in Ahmadabad in places)
> there
> is a lot of concrete there also.  its not a BRT/mrt thing.  i am trying to
> integrate the evaluation criteria to look at mrt and brt and other options
> using similar methods.  i am in Guangzhou for the opening of the BRT here
> and one very nice feature is its integration with the metro system, maybe
> the first time we get nice full integration.  the BRT is not on a corridor
> with mrt in the long term plan, so its additional and not competitive.
>
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 6:24 PM, <bruun at seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> Walter raises an important issue. There is indeed a payback time. But it
> isn't necessarily 20 years for systems that have frequent service and carry
> large numbers
> of people all day. And even when it is 20 years, keep in mind that metros
> and railways
> are around for a century or more. The tunnel for the first line in London.
> the Metropolitan
> Railway, was opened in 1863 and is still in service today. That is true
> sustainability.
>
> If the point is that BRT avoids this problem, we have been over this
> before.
> Points to consider:
>
> 1) Sometimes a tunnel is the only way to get both decent capacity and high
> performance to the places
> that need it. Once a tunnel is needed anyway, the case for rail
> strengthens.
>
> 2) I heard the presentation at WRI about Ahmedabad two weeks ago where the
> speaker said "build BRT,study Metro" which got laughs from the audience. I
> point out that just the opposite also happens. "Build Metro, study BRT" was
> the case in Delhi. This difference in incubation time must be taken into
> consideration when evaluating the carbon reduction. How much extra would
> have been emitted waiting for the go-ahead for the first BRT line?
>
> 3) What are the real options on the table? If the choice is between
> building
> a Metro and building a highway, I will take the Metro. If the choice is
> between BRT and Metro, then it needs to be studied closer. I don't
> automatically pick either one.
>
> Eric Bruun
>
>
>
> Quoting Walter Hook <whook at itdp.org>:
>
> sudhir from CAI Asia just ran some numbers for metro projects and CO2.  If
> you include all the construction related CO2, they come out negative for a
> large number of years, and to get positive co2 impact you need to push the
> project time line out something like 20 years or more. i imagine monorails
> would not be quite as concrete intensive but may be close.   Interesting to
> note the mention of Lanzhou.
>
> w
>
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 6:20 AM, Eric Britton
> <eric.britton at ecoplan.org>wrote:
>
> Mumbai monorail project looks to reduce CO2 emissions
>
> By Lisa Sibley
> Published 2010-01-27 09:22
> Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia-based Scomi Group, a global service provider mainly
> in the oil and gas industry, said today its trial run of India's first
> monorail car for a project in Mumbai has been a success.
> The Malaysia-listed company also specializes in urban transit systems, with
> an emphasis on India, China, the Gulf states, and Brazil. The trial run
> occurred yesterday, also a national holiday, the Republic Day of India.
> The monorail is expected to prevent 200 tons of carbon dioxide emissions
> daily. The proposed structure is also considered environmentally friendly
> because it won't obstruct sunlight or trap excessive emissions. In
> addition,
> it's expected to be quieter than other modes of transportation.
> Scomi India's Country President Suhaimi Yaacob said in a news release the
> project's focus is on sustainable mobility, reduced urban congestion,
> improved reliability, and comfortable travel.
> Other cities looking to reduce mass transport emissions include China's
> Lanzhou, which is working on a comprehensive urban development plan linking
> a new city center with a rapid bus transport system, expected to result in
> a
> cleaner, more economical mass transportation system (see China's Lanzhou
> makes plans to reduce mass transport emissions
> <http://cleantech.com/news/5429/lanzhou-mass-transport-system>  [1]).
> Scomi's engineering division and partner Larsen & Toubro, India's largest
> engineering and construction conglomerate, secured $545 million for the
> Mumbai Monorail Project in November 2008, and are expected to complete the
> project by 2011.
> Scomi is tasked with delivering 60 cars, making up 15 sets of four-car
> trains. Each four-coach monorail is expected to be able to accommodate
> about
> 600 passengers, carrying a total of nearly 300,000 daily commuters.
> The monorail project is expected to have a 20-kilometer (12.4 mile)
> proposed
> route between Jacob Circle and Chembur, a suburban neighborhood in eastern
> Mumbai, with one central depot and about 18 user-friendly stations. Chembur
> is located about 22 kilometers from downtown Mumbai and considered a
> transit
> point for travelers to Pune.
>
>
>
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