[sustran] Re: Motorcycles Transportation Vietnam

[Brendan Finn]

Craig,

I agree with your assessment. I visited Hanoi last year. After the initial
shock of the waves of two-wheelers, I began to understand that it really
does flow, sort of like a large shoal of fish, Each individual really does
have a sense of those around them, and behaves in a quite predictable way.
It's also clear that while they may look chaotic, each rider does behave in
a collision-avoidance mode. I did not once observe a collision or anyone
falling off their bicycle to avoid a collision. It's the first time I had
come across such level of two-wheeler use, and it was obvious that it works
really well.

My observation was that all forms of two-wheelers (even those with 12-foot
pipes!) can interact very well with each other. Further, pedestrians can
quite easily cross the flows, as long as you time it reasonably well and
behave predictably (my initially-terrified wife agreed on this one,
eventually).

However, the introduction of even one car into this changed the picture
dramatically. The scale of the car makes it a blockage, and the driving
style means that it barges its way through, unwilling or unable to interact
sensitively with the two-wheelers. I do not believe that cars and
two-wheelers on Hanoi scale can interact safely.

I didn't come to a conclusion about buses. Because there are far fewer of
them than cars, they are highly visible, and they drive slowly in a
predictable (albeit unyielding) way, it seems that a certain number of buses
can be absorbed in the flow of two-wheelers.

My personal opinion is that as a pedestrian I was far safer crossing the
streets of down-town Hanoi than almost any where else I have been.
Nonetheless, I believe that the promoters of automobiles will win, and that
very shortly two-wheeler travel will have become extremely dangerous due to
the number of cars. Since it is the mode of availability and affordability
for over 95% of Vietnamese, they will continue to use it and will suffer
high rates of casualty.


Brendan Finn,
ETTS, Ireland.

_______________________________________________________________________
Contact details are : e-mail : etts at indigo.ie   tel : +353.87.2530286
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig August Johnson" <caj24 at cornell.edu>
To: "Asia and the Pacific sustainable transport"
<sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
Cc: <a3b14 at yahoogroups.com>; "Asia and the Pacific sustainable transport"
<sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 6:28 AM
Subject: [sustran] Motorcycles Transportation Vietnam


> In terms of motorcycle use in Southeast Asia, I think there are examples
> of how motorbikes have provided a viable alternative to an auto-based
> urban transportation system. In Vietnam, while the high rate of motorcycle
> usage (60% of traffic is on motorbikes) has displaced pedestrians from the
> streets. High numbers of motorbikes have been able to coexist quite well
> with high usage of bikes (30% of traffic is on bicycles). This has
> contributed to a dynamic high energy street life that is quite different
> than a more pedestrian-centered street life, but still viable. Sure there
> are a greater number of collisions between
> motorbikes-pedestrians-bicycles, but these collisions are usually not
> fatal, and are rarely treated as accidents. Most of the road fatalities in
> Vietnam happen on highways and not in the cities.
>
> Given the speed and the scope of motorization in Vietnam, the negative
> impacts of motorization that one acutely experience in America such as
> sprawl, smog, congestion, and the social inequality arising from
> inadequate public mass transportation are not found in Vietnamese cities
> for the following reasons:
>
> 1. Motorcycles pollute far less than cars- especially four stroke engine
> motorcycles. An 80cc four-stroke engine scooter can get 85-90 miles per
> gallon much better than a typical car at around 30 mpg. Also, there are
> many viable electric scooters on the market that are zero emissions.
>
> 2. Parking is not a big issue for motorcycles. Vietnamese cities are
> incredibly dense,   thus allowing cities to become quite dense and still
> relatively uncongested given the high density.
>
> 3. While riding a motorbike, one has much greater connection to the
> surrounding street. One is not able to control the personal environment
> like in a car, so the importance of street life and streetscape are not
> lost by the increase in motorbikes.
>
> 4. Motorcycles are cheaper than cars making motorbikes a more equitable
> form of individual motorized transportation.  In Vietnam, the price of a
> car is 15x the price of a motorbike. As a result Vietnam has a rate of
> around 300 motor vehicles/1000 people. This is on par with many
> industrialized European countries such as Denmark and the Netherlands.
> Motorbikes have given all the benefits of owning private vehicle such as
> personal mobility, speed, and no wait time while still being quite
> affordable.
>
> 5. Motorbikes do not take up as much space on the road. In Hanoi there is
> less than .17 km of auto-accessible road length per 1000 residents. This
> compares drastically to New York which is 9.97km and Singapore which is
> .98km per 1000 residents.
>
> Indeed, Vietnamese cities have been able to economically develop at great
> speed, partly because the cities have not had to build an auto-based road
> infrastructure. Now, though Vietnam is building the road infrastructure
> with funding from World Bank and JBIC, and the increase in cars that is
> now occurring in Vietnam will contribute much more to traffic
> fatalities/congestion/pollution/sprawl/and social inequality than
> motorbikes. Like Eric said, the pro-auto policies are having a much more
> detrimental effect than the huge increase in motorbikes.
>
>
> Craig Johnson
>
> Much of the statistics quoted were from both a JICA transportation study
> in Hanoi, augmented with personal data collected this last summer
>
>
>
> >
> > I certainly have to agree that there are too many aggressive
motorcyclists
> > in Athens and far too many large, semi-legal street racers without
proper
> > mufflers. I also agree that most current motorcycles pollute too much,
as
> > they don't use the latest technology.
> >
> > However, a total ban is ridiculous. Some things to consider. First, they
> > need far less parking space, one of the reasons for their popularity.
> > Second, they are far more fuel efficient than all but the smallest
autos,
> > unless these autos operate full, which they almost never do. Third,
small
> > motorcycles get run over by cars in the developing countries in large
> > numbers. And the people riding them are not in the same income class as
> > those who own the cars.
> >
> > But here is one of my main points. Yes, there are too many motorcycles
on
> > the road in some places, especially in southeast Asia. But, lets look at
> > why. They have fast growing economies and work sites that are
increasingly
> > far away. Yet these countries have substandard public transportation, as
> > governments (and the World Bank) have prioritized auto facilities
instead.
> > What would you do if you could save enough money to buy a motorcycle?
> > Blame
> > a lot of the problem on pro-auto policies.
> >
> > The other main point is to consider the alternative. Would you rather
have
> > merchants and couriers shipping their goods around on space-conserving,
> > low-polluting, well-muffled, and energy-conserving smaller motorcycles,
or
> > in cars and trucks?  Motorcycles can have their place if public policy
is
> > sensible. To the extent they displace pedestrians, bicycles, or buses,
> > motorcycles will be bad. To the extent they displace autos and trucks,
> > they
> > will be good.
> >
> > We have a similar discussion in the US. The Segway company has a slick
> > propaganda campaign saying how these motorized vehicles will displace
cars
> > on short trips. I am skeptical. What they will probably do is displace
> > pedestrian and bicycle trips while promoting obesity,  electricity
> > consumption, and broken toes. Yet, if they can actually be put in role
> > where
> > they genuinely reduce auto or truck traffic, I will support them.
> >
> > Eric Bruun
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "K. Tsourlakis" <ktsourl at mailbox.gr>
> > To: <sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
> > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 7:45 AM
> > Subject: [sustran] Re: FW: WHO report on Road Traffic Injury Prevention
> >
> >
> >>
> >> At 05:59 ðì 15/4/2004 +0300, you wrote:
> >>
> >> >.....................................
> >> >At the IFRTD Executive Committee meeting in November 2003 we had
> >> >a considered discussion on road safety.   It would seem to me that
> >> >road traffic injuries are correlated with  the increase in high
> >> >speed road networks and increased motorisation.  The 'vulnerable
> >> >road users' (pedestrians, cyclists, and motorcyclists - and perhaps
> >> >other non-motorised transport users ) are the most at risk but
> >> >perhaps also the least likely to benefit from motorisation and
> >> >highways. So, from the perspective of reducing vulnerability of
> >> >poor people, do we not also need a road traffic injury prevention
> >> >strategy that questions the dominant paradigm of high speed
> >> >motorisation?
> >> >.....................................
> >>
> >>
> >> Motorcyclists are NOT non-motorised transport users. Bunching up
> > motorcyclists next to pedestrians, cyclists and other non-motorised
> > transport users is a HUGE logical and methodological mistake. And
> > motorcyclists DO benefit from motorisation and highways. Especially
> > benefited are the larger ones, bought (at least to some extent) always
as
> > entertainment toys (e.g. the only use of 70HP, 80HP, 100HP - or even
more
> > -
> > motorcycle power is to break speed limits) - but smaller ones have
> > certainly
> > their share too.
> >>
> >> Actually motorcycles pollute like cars do (even electrical ones pollute
> > indirectly), are noisy (usually more than cars), kill pedestrians and
> > their
> > users (at a rate 10-40 times more frequently than cars do) and are not
> > usable (not even as mere passengers like cars are) from a large part of
> > the
> > population (the most vulnerable one: babies, visually and kinetically
> > impaired, elderlies etc).
> >>
> >> Overuse of cars has certainly destroyed world cities and brought about
> > many problems - it is trivial and needless to mention them on a list
like
> > this one. However there may exist a place even for them in an ideal and
> > rationally designed transport system - e.g. in sparsely populated areas,
> > for
> > the transport of people on special needs, or under some particular forms
> > like the controversial caresharing scheme. But what advantage would
> > motorcycle present over bicycle use, combined with proper mass transport
> > (bike racks, train facilites for bikes etc) for longer distances? Has
> > anybody ever thought if the total ban of motorcycle were a better
solution
> > to the vulnerability and the rest of the problems they present?
> >>
> >> In Greece motorcycle use has contributed (perhaps more than cars) to
the
> > oppression of pedestrians, the miserable situation of the public spaces
of
> > the city and the environmental and healthy problems (you may take a look
> > at
> > http://www.pezh.gr/english/photo4.htm ). Because of the deliberate
> > encouragement of motorcycle use through a number of privileges (the last
> > one
> > is the right to use legally dedicated bus lanes) their number
proliferated
> > (in Athens their number is estimated to 1 mil - compared to 2 mil. of
> > cars)
> > while they are used only by a small (but mostly fanatical and
politically
> > influential) part of the population and contribute according to studies
> > less
> > than 8% to the total mobility. I am sure there are similar "horror
> > stories"
> > about motorcycles from Asia cities. Anybody to speak up?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
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