[asia-apec 695] Cda Hansard, Sept.23/98 re: APEC '97

[Sharon R.A. Scharfe]

House of Commons
Ottawa, CANADA

Canadian Parliament
Official Hansard (and translation) (English version only)
>From Proceedings on September 23, 1998

...

ORAL QUESTIONS

APEC SUMMIT 

Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
greatest security risk at the APEC summit was not from peaceful protesters,
it was from armed bodyguards surrounding dictator Suharto of Indonesia. 

Some of these bodyguards even talked about shooting Canadians for carrying
signs. Five of them became so violent they actually had to be arrested
themselves. 

What does it say about the Prime Minister's priorities when foreign hit men
are allowed to do their  own thing on Canadian streets but Canadian students
are not? 

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, they were
arrested. 

Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, five were
arrested— 

Some hon. members: Oh, oh. 

The Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition. 

Mr. Preston Manning: Five were arrested, Mr. Speaker. The rest were not and
none of them were pepper sprayed. 

Surely it is the responsibility of the Prime Minister to stand up for human
rights, at least at home,  and not to fluff the pillow for some foreign
dictator. 

What Canadians do not understand is why the Prime Minister went to such
extraordinary lengths for a foreign dictator who is reviled in his own
country, even suppressing the rights of Canadians in order to protect him
simply from embarrassment. 

The next time the government invites a brutal dictator to Canada, does the
Prime Minister intend to conduct himself in the same way? 

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the APEC
meeting rules were established to protect the security of all the leaders.
The rules apply to all the leaders: the  resident of the United States, the
Prime Minister of Australia, the Prime Minister of Malaysia, the Prime
Minister of Japan. 

We had a system to make sure that they could come to the APEC meeting, a
very important meeting, and deliberate in a peaceful atmosphere. The exact
same rules applied to everyone. 

Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, Canadians
are still waiting to hear precisely what was the Prime Minister's role in
authorizing the special treatment of Suharto and the attack on the Canadian
students. 

The public complaints inquiry will not tell us that because, according to
the RCMP Act, that inquiry only investigates the conduct of RCMP officers
and not their political masters. 

Who will be investigating the role of the Prime Minister in this whole
affair? Will the Prime Minister co-operate fully? 

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have nothing
to hide. There is an inquiry and in fact it has asked two members of my
staff to appear. They have volunteered to be there. The sherpa responsible
for the conference will appear also. 

The commission will decide who it wants to hear. It will do its work. Let it
do its work. 

Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Prime Minister. Forty boxes of evidence were turned over
to commission counsel and virtually nothing in those boxes had any evidence
from the Prime Minister's office or the PMO. 

What assurance can the Prime Minister give Canadians that, unlike the
Somalia affair, documents of the APEC affair will not be shredded? 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think
the Public Complaints Commission has distinguished itself over the years
quite remarkably. 

In fact, Canadians have every right to the truth on this matter. Parliament,
this institution, decided that the way to get to that truth was through this
very organization. I really wish that they would let them do their work. 

Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, my
supplementary question is to the Prime Minister. 

We, like all Canadians, want to know the truth. We know there is a
commission. We know the commission cannot investigate the government. We
want assurances from this government that  unlike Somalia, unlike the Krever
commission, documents will not be shredded so that this commission gets
everything that is available from this government. 

Anybody who did anything from the PMO, the solicitor general's office and
the Ministry of Foreign Affairs should be before that commission. That is
what Canadians demand. We want the assurance from this government that they
will do that. 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is
because we have such high regard for the Public Complaints Commission that
when it makes these requests it gets the information it asked for. 

[Translation] 

Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the
Prime Minister said, and I quote “I have been in politics for a long time.
As a minister, I have seen many people in departments speaking on behalf of
their ministers or on behalf of the Prime Minister, not knowing—” 

Was the Prime Minister telling us that individuals in his own office acted
without his knowledge in the Suharto matter, without his being informed? 

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the answer is no. 

Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, either the Prime
Minister was informed or he was talking for the sake of talking yesterday.
It has to be one or the other, not both. 

Could the Prime Minister tell us whether the Minister of Foreign Affairs, on
his return from Indonesia, told him of the commitments he had made that
there would be no problems and that Suharto would not be troubled during his
visit to Vancouver? 

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Minister
of Foreign Affairs made a statement about that yesterday. 

We told all heads of state that they could come to Canada, that their lives
would not be in danger and their security would be ensured and that we could
carry on normal talks, because we were discussing very important problems at
that point, such as the Asian financial crisis. 

Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the
Prime Minister. 

One might wonder how innocuous student groups could endanger the lives of
other leaders. We  learned this morning that not only did the RCMP brutally
repress the demonstrators in Vancouver, but that it also infiltrated student
groups. 

Does the Prime Minister deny the direct link between the extraordinary
promises of the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the extraordinary actions of
the RCMP, who pepper-spray, infiltrate, shove and even, as a preventive
measure, arrest completely harmless students? 

[English] 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it
surprises me that members of parliament would have such disregard for an
instrument that was set up by parliament to get to the truth of this matter. 

These are old questions that relate to that inquiry and they have the
responsibility to let the instrument of this place do its job. 

[Translation] 

Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the
Prime Minister, since the solicitor general has, as usual, been left out of
the loop. 

Is the clearly extreme behaviour of the RCMP, who infiltrate, rough up,
and—I repeat—as a preventive measure, arrest demonstrating students, not the
direct result of this Prime Minister's obsession with doing whatever it took
to bring this dictator to Canada? 

[English] 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in a free
and democratic society Canadians have the right to a way of challenging the
law enforcement agencies, in this case the RCMP. 

That instrument, as established by the Parliament of Canada, is the Public
Complaints Commission.  Most of the questions being put here today are
questions that would be directed to the Public Complaints Commission and I
wish that the members opposite would let it get to the truth because that is
what Canadians deserve. 

Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the
Prime Minister. Yesterday the Prime Minister blamed staff for the shameful
suppression of the peaceful protest  that took place at the APEC summit. 

He has now had time to reflect on those facts. 

Will the Prime Minister tell us today whether it was his staff acting in his
name or whether he himself gave the orders? 

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon.
member likes to make vague accusations based on nothing. 

There is an inquiry and the inquiry will ask questions. 

They have asked for the presence of two people on my staff, who said they
would be happy to go. The other people who are responsible for the meeting,
like the sherpa, are willing to go. Everything will be available for the
commission to look at. 

We received these leaders and everything went according— 

The Speaker: The hon. leader of the New Democratic Party. 

Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister may deny
involvement, but eyewitnesses suggest otherwise. 

Inside the APEC security net, Chief Gail Sparrow saw the Prime Minister
barking out orders, not just to his own staff but to security staff as well. 

When will the Prime Minister stop denying his direct participation in this
fiasco? 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think it
is important for members of all parties to recognize that, in Canada,
Canadians have the opportunity to challenge the authority of the RCMP in
this case. There is a process in place. It was set up by the previous
government and it deserves the right to do its job. 

Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, today Canada welcomes
President Nelson Mandela, who spent his life fighting for human rights and
civil liberties. 

Canada's former prime minister, Brian Mulroney, stood up with President
Mandela in that noble struggle. Today we have a Prime Minister who appears
to care less about civil liberties and more  about sparing dictator
embarrassment. 

Will the Prime Minister, like Mr. Mandela, do the right thing? Will he give
this House a full account of his role in the RCMP actions against Canadians
at the APEC summit? 

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I can see that
the hon. member is moving from blue to almost red at this moment. We know
that she understands the party has to evolve a bit. 

Yes, I am happy to say that Prime Minister Mulroney, like his predecessors,
starting with Prime Minister Diefenbaker, were working strongly against
apartheid in South Africa. And we are very happy that Nelson Mandela is
coming here. 

With respect to human rights, I would like to tell the hon. member that I
was the one, as the minister  of justice, who worked for months with
attorneys general and the House of Commons to have— 

The Speaker: The hon. leader of the Conservative Party. 

Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, section 19 of the
Immigration Act prohibits security personnel who work for a government
engaged in gross human rights violations from  entering Canada unless the
immigration minister is satisfied these people are not detrimental to the
national interest. 

Indonesia under Suharto killed countless people. Since the Prime Minister
will not answer my first question, will the minister of immigration tell us
if she believes it was in Canada's interest to let in Suharto's so-called
goons with guns, the same goons who asked the RCMP if it was okay to shoot
Canadians? 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, once again
the hon. member displays a real lack of understanding as to the process in
place. The public complaints commission
established by her government, the last government, was established
specifically so Canadians would have recourse. They have it and I feel
strongly that we need to protect the integrity of that  process so that we
can get to the truth. 

Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, so far the Prime
Minister has been hiding behind the solicitor general under the assumption
of the Canadian public that this is actually going to be a public inquiry.
It is not. It is under the public complaints commission of the RCMP act. It
has no ability to be able to go after the Prime Minister and the political
interference. 

I ask the solicitor general to quit guarding and hiding the Prime Minister
under his assertions and  to the right thing, a judicial inquiry so we can
uncover this affair. 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would
ask the hon. member to quit undermining the integrity of the public
complaints commission and let it do its job. 

Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it will be of
interest to this House to realize that under the Canada Evidence Act, which
this inquiry is working under, in section 37 a  minister of the crown may
object to disclosure of information. 

What kind of an inquiry are we going to have if the minister, the Prime
Minister, decides that he wants to withhold information? This minister has a
responsibility as the solicitor general. He is not  just a cabinet minister.
He is the Solicitor General of Canada for all Canadians. 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): That is quite right,
Mr. Speaker, and I am very much aware of that. That is the reason I am
protecting this process from the slams it is receiving from the other side. 

[Translation] 

Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, we recently learned that
the members of dictator Suharto's entourage were arrested, heavily armed,
and even wearing commando fatigues. 

My question for the government is the following: Does the fact that these
people feel so free to behave as they wish in Canada not indicate that the
Minister of Foreign Affairs went too far in the guarantees he gave Mr.
Suharto and his entourage that nothing would be done to make his visit in
any way unpleasant for him? 

[English] 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
security arrangements around the APEC conference were the responsibility of
the RCMP. The RCMP have a system to do an inquiry into the actions of the
RCMP. That is the inquiry that is in play right now. It deals specifically
with the kinds of allegations being put. If we will allow them to do their
job I think the interests of Canadians will be served as was intended when
the PCC was struck. 

[Translation] 

Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, just as, in our opinion,
the Minister of Foreign Affairs went too far in meeting the demands of
Suharto and his gang, did not the Prime Minister  also go too far in his
directives to the RCMP, which authorized its officers, they claim, to arrest
young Canadian students merely wishing to exercise their civil rights before
they had even done anything? 

[English] 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
security arrangements are the responsibility of the RCMP and the RCMP are
being investigated in the broadest possible way  by the public complaints
commission. We will get to the truth, as Canadians expect. This is an
institution that was struck by this House and I think it deserves the
respect of this House. 

                                    *  *  *
...

APEC SUMMIT 

Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr. Speaker, we wish the Prime
Minister would avoid the politicization of the RCMP in the same way. 
  
Canadians were appalled to learn that when our foreign minister met with
Indonesia's foreign minister before APEC last year he apologized to him for
the anti-Suharto poster campaign in Canada and attacked the East Timor alert
network. 

Will the Prime Minister now apologize to all Canadians for this disgusting
sucking up to a third world dictator all in the name of promoting— 

Some hon. members: Oh, oh. 

The Speaker: Colleagues, I would ask all of you to be a bit more judicious
in your choice of words. 

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I believe
members are going a bit far in their accusations based on no facts at all,
especially making a statement like that, which a  veteran of the House of
Commons for many years and an extremely respected person, the Minister of
Foreign Affairs, denied yesterday. 

It is a shame to see the member making that accusation, just to be sure he
will be on TV tonight. 

Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the document of
the ambassador speaks for itself. 

We have now learned that the RCMP planted a spy in the

We have now learned that the RCMP planted a spy in the student group APEC
Alert before the APEC summit. Will the Prime Minister explain to Canadians
why the RCMP infiltrated this peaceful, non-violent group, using the kind of
tactics that Suharto uses instead Canadian democratic values? 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I know the
hon. member is aware of the role of the public complaints commission. I know
the hon. member is aware that these issues are being investigated. I know he
is aware that if I were to express an opinion on this it would be called
political influence on my part, and I will not have it. 

[Translation] 

Ms. Diane St-Jacques (Shefford, PC): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the
Prime Minister. 

Suharto's bodyguards needed the approval of the Minister of Immigration to
enter Canada. Once they got here, they threatened to shoot Canadians. 

Why did the Prime Minister not expel them from the country? 

[English] 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think it
is vitally important that members opposite, particularly members of the
party that created the commission, would respect its right to do its work
and that we would not be reacting to every piece of information as it comes
along. 

It is very important that we let this exercise continue because Canadians
deserve to know the truth. 

[Translation] 

Ms. Diane St-Jacques (Shefford, PC): Mr. Speaker, in case this government
does not know, I will inform it. 

Suharto's army has killed millions of people in Indonesia. These are the
very soldiers they let into Canada. 

When they asked the RCMP if they could shoot at the demonstrators, why did
the Prime Minister not have them expelled from the country? 

[English] 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I have
said, the security arrangements around APEC were the responsibility of the
RCMP. It is those very arrangements that are being investigated by a
structure that was put in place by the House and deserves our respect. 

They are going to get to the truth and I wish members opposite would let
them do their job. 

                                    *  *  *  
...

APEC SUMMIT 

Mr. Peter Mancini (Sydney—Victoria, NDP): Mr. Speaker, yesterday and again
today the Prime Minister said students with complaints against the RCMP
would have an opportunity to present  their views to the public complaints
commission. 

My question is for the solicitor general, and he should be able to answer
this one. Why was funding for legal counsel to the students denied even
after the federal court indicated funding would be essential to assist the
students in presenting their case? 

How can they tell their story, or is this something else the solicitor
general just will not have? 

Hon. Andy Scott (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, quite the
contrary. Because the public complaints commission represents the interests
of Canadians, that was the reason we did not want to offer support to hire
lawyers. We do not want this to become a court. We do not wish this to take
on an adversarial nature. 

We have been assured by the public complaints commission that these
processes are done informally. It is not intended to be adversarial. The
students will have their opportunity to appear before the agency that has
been struck in their interest. 

                                    *  *  *
...

[end]


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