[sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses
Sujit Patwardhan
patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com
Tue Mar 16 13:12:25 JST 2010
Dear Sudhir,
That's a super photograph, and may qualify the structure to become one of
the "New Seven Wonders of the World"
:-)
--
Sujit
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 6:25 AM, Sudhir <sudhir at cai-asia.org> wrote:
> I agree with Joachim... if only we can provide the best space ......
>
> I have been a very bad road designer in past and used to use many
> thumbrules ( which people call as guidelines) when designing the roads. I
> have realized over time that people are bound to take shortest and
> convenient route many a times irrespective of risks involved. Thus you see
> people running across in the road below a overpass. This explains the
> non-usage of bad overpass.
> In order to even prevent that we have used 1m medians to prevent people
> from
> thinking at-grade...
>
> Providing an overpass one needs to marry geometry with landscape....there
> are only few good asian examples of this...
>
> for the bad examples there are thousands...
>
> see this photo which i consider the best example of our mindset...
>
> i took this in cebu and was shocked when i saw this "wonder of new world"
>
>
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yhbUFBRBDMo/SgeA8NTVOYI/AAAAAAAAAD4/C-42VqEK3_4/s1600-h/Picture+1031.jpg
>
> cheers
> Sudhir
>
>
> On 16 March 2010 01:46, Joachim Bergerhoff <
> joachim.bergerhoff at unhabitat-kosovo.org> wrote:
>
> > Let's consider that, by definition, the street is where the pedestrians
> and
> > cyclists are. If the street must go over or under a thick stream of
> > motorised traffic flow, so be it. What matters is that this "over- or
> > under- pass-street" is a real street with all the positive features that
> it
> > should have from the point of view of non-motorised users: short
> > connection,
> > ample space, no obstacles for mobility impaired, safety, attractiveness,
> > etc. An overpass can provide all this, if it is well designed at macro
> and
> > micro scale. It will not even be perceived as an overpass any longer,
> > because it IS the street and the motor traffic is now underground
> relative
> > to it. This is of course difficult to achieve in many places, for
> physical
> > and funding reasons. But I suggest that anybody who considers an over-
> or
> > under-pass solution should have this vision in mind.
> > Yours,
> > Joachim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 15 March 2010 18:07, Walter Hook <whook at itdp.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Well, certainly we generally agree that its best to have at grade, but
> we
> > > tend to live in a second best world.
> > >
> > > We tend to recommend that brt stations be placed away from junctions
> > > because
> > > otherwise it slows down the busway because of bus stop/traffic signal
> > > interference, as witnessed in Delhi, significantly slowing both bus
> > speeds
> > > and mixed traffic speeds. Placing the bus stop next to the
> intersection
> > > has
> > > its ideological merits but frequently results in slower speeds and
> > capacity
> > > not only for motorists and also for bus passengers.
> > >
> > > This offset makes it more complicated for pedestrians who have to cross
> > mid
> > > block somewhere. Some BRT roads still have three mixed traffic lanes
> > even
> > > mid block, though not very many. TransMilenio does. TransJakarta
> does,
> > > etc. Maybe the road is a national road carrying a lot of long distance
> > > truck traffic, a lot of charter buses, minibuses, shared taxis, who
> > knows.
> > >
> > > Sure, the best solution for three or more lanes of mixed traffic per
> > > direction might be a slow bump before the mid block ped crossing, and
> an
> > > elevated crosswalk, and a ped crossing signal, IF the traffic signal
> > phase
> > > for pedstrians is reasonably short, when there are three lanes or more
> of
> > > mixed traffic to cross, but many such roads are wide national roads
> where
> > > there are currently restrictions against slow bumps and other major
> > > administrative and political hurdles which you just cannot overcome in
> a
> > > short time.
> > >
> > > If you just make people cross at grade but fail to provide a safe
> > crossing
> > > environment for whatever reason, it is probably better to have a
> > pedestrian
> > > flyover in a second best world. I've tried to cross mid-block in
> Jakarta
> > > at
> > > an at-grade traffic signal where I had to wait for the signal for a
> long
> > > time and then NOBODY respected the pedestrian crossing signal anyway,
> and
> > I
> > > can tell you, in that situation I am very happy for the locations where
> > > there is a pedestrian overpass.
> > >
> > > That doesnt mean there should not also be an at grade crossing. i am
> > all
> > > for giving the pedestrians as many choices as possible.
> > >
> > > So while it is fairly easy to take an ideological position on the
> matter,
> > > there may be a lot of local factors and political realities that dont
> > give
> > > two hoots about a pure ideological position and actually do care about
> > > traffic flow, etc.
> > >
> > > So if we offer an at grade option, would we still be against also
> > providing
> > > a pedestrian overpass?
> > >
> > > Pedestrian overpass design matters a lot. many of them are too high,
> the
> > > gradient is too steep, etc. What if there are escalators or elevators?
> > >
> > > In some cases they get used by a lot of people who are simply trying to
> > > cross the street who have trouble crossing the street anyway, in
> > conditions
> > > where despite YEARS of advocacy efforts we have simply FAILED to
> convince
> > > the authorities to improve the surface condition.
> > >
> > > So, I am not sure a hard line against them is constructive.
> > >
> > > best
> > > walter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory <
> > > edelman at greenidea.eu> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > First - I hope this does not seem and odd question - for the
> "experts"
> > > > whom Carlos spoke of and others who ask ITDP about it, etc, what is
> the
> > > > conceptual or philosophical starting point for a "street"? (And I
> mean
> > > > all spaces for life between buildings, to paraphrase our dear Mr
> Gehl).
> > > > Is the simple space between buildings the natural street, with
> > > > everything else adding both positive (e.g. fast collective public
> > > > transport, access for emergency vehicles) and/or negative (e.g. any
> > > > private automobiles, or at least those moving over typical cycling
> > speed)
> > > >
> > > > Or is the starting point the
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> total-Hell-we-need-a-flyover-dont-we?-children-are-scared-to-cross-BUT-if-vehicles
> > > > dont-move-fast-enough-the-same-children-will-somehow-starve road?
> > > >
> > > > Second - for wider streets with heavy/fast road vehicles - why not a
> > > > pedestrian signal which allows the slowest walking people to cross in
> > > > one go (no islands), assuming they get to the edge just as the light
> > > > turns green for them? Or on any major pedestrian routes, how about
> > > > having a "green wave" <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_wave> for
> > > > pedestrians with signals based on walking speed along a single route?
> I
> > > > see no need at all for a pedestrian flyover, even for streets with
> BRT
> > > > or light rail and close intervals. So I am agreeing with Colin, but
> > > > Walter, you seem to have some reason to disagree but I can't figure
> out
> > > > what it is...
> > > >
> > > > - Todd (in Europe, on a pretty busy street)
> > > >
> > > > Walter Hook wrote:
> > > > > we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and under
> > many
> > > > > contexts. I believe that some basic general principals can be
> > followed
> > > > but
> > > > > also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted. People can normally
> > cross
> > > > two
> > > > > lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not
> > three
> > > or
> > > > > more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be
> > respected.
> > > > > even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, but
> as
> > a
> > > > rule
> > > > > of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and
> three
> > > > lanes
> > > > > of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better.
> > > > >
> > > > > w.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader <brader at itpworld.net
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> Dear Carlos
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken user
> > > needs
> > > > >> analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the
> > > > >> Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade
> > crossings.
> > > I
> > > > >> believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the
> > > at-grade
> > > > >> crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian
> > > volume,
> > > > >> appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is
> > such
> > > > >> that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not
> > > > >> require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take
> full
> > > > >> consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being
> > > > >> placed.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards
> > > > >> Colin Brader
> > > > >> Director
> > > > >> Integrated Transport Planning Ltd
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net@
> list.jca.apc.org
> > > > >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader<sustran-discuss-bounces%2Bbrader>
> <sustran-discuss-bounces%2Bbrader>
> > <sustran-discuss-bounces%2Bbrader>
> > > <sustran-discuss-bounces%2Bbrader><sustran-discuss-bounces%2Bbrader>=
> > > > >> itpworld.net at list.jca.apc.org] On
> > > > >> Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo
> > > > >> Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42
> > > > >> To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport
> > > > >> Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hi,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of
> > > > >> level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries
> in
> > > > >> Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as
> a
> > > > >> fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and
> even
> > > > >> pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety"
> in
> > a
> > > > >> crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing!
> > > I've
> > > > >> been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a
> specific
> > > > >> overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they
> > don't
> > > > >> understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they
> > are
> > > > >> also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to
> many
> > > > >> (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car
> must
> > > just
> > > > >>
> > > > >> whizz by).
> > > > >>
> > > > >> This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Best regards,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Carlos.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they
> > simply
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just
> > > > >> before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply
> > > notices.
> > > > >> But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines
> > of
> > > > >> "improving traffic."
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> ________________________________
> > > > >>> From: Eric Britton<eric.britton at ecoplan.org>
> > > > >>> To: Cornie Huizenga<cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org>;
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> jane.<voodikon at yahoo.com>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Cc: Salil Bijur<salilb at gmail.com>; Global 'South' Sustainable
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> Transport<sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>;
> > > > >> Kanchan<kittykanchan at gmail.com>; JasonChang<skchang at ntu.edu.tw>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM
> > > > >>> Subject: Pedestrian Budget
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e.,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> walkers,
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers
> can
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> arrive
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how
> the
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> concept
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> is otherwise billed.)
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Do I have that right?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Kind thanks for informing,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Best/Eric Britton
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent
> > truth-seeking
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> piece
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced
> coverage
> > > of
> > > > >>> course. Candidates?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> World Streets . www.worldstreets.org
> > > > >>> 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France
> > > > >>> +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton at newmobility.org . Skype
> > > newmobility
> > > > >>> New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org
> > > > >>> 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210
> > > > >>> +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton at gmail.org . Skype ericbritton
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > > > >>>
> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join
> the
> > > > real
> > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> ================================================================
> > > > >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of
> people-centred,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> > > countries
> > > > >> (the 'Global South').
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > > > >>
> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join
> the
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> > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ================================================================
> > > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of
> people-centred,
> > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> > > countries
> > > > >> (the 'Global South').
> > > > >> --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > > > >>
> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join
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> > > > real
> > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ================================================================
> > > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of
> people-centred,
> > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> > > countries
> > > > >> (the 'Global South').
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > --------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Todd Edelman
> > > > Green Idea Factory
> > > >
> > > > Urbanstr. 45
> > > > D-10967 Berlin
> > > > Germany
> > > >
> > > > Skype: toddedelman
> > > > Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081
> > > >
> > > > edelman at greenidea.eu
> > > > www.greenidea.eu
> > > > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman
> > > >
> > > > CAR* is over. If you want it.
> > > >
> > > > "Fort mit der Privatautostadt und was Neues hingebaut!"
> > > > - B. Brecht (with slight modification)
> > > >
> > > > * "Car" is a sub-category of automobile, i.e. one used
> inappropriately,
> > > > opportunistically or without creativity
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> > > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the
> > real
> > > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> > > >
> > > > ================================================================
> > > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> > > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> > countries
> > > > (the 'Global South').
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Walter Hook
> > > Executive Director
> > > Institute for Transportation and Development Policy
> > > 127 W 26 St, Ste 1002
> > > New York, NY 10001
> > > 1-212-629-8001
> > > www.itdp.org
> > >
> > > Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide.
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the
> real
> > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> > >
> > > ================================================================
> > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> countries
> > > (the 'Global South').
> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real
> > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> >
> > ================================================================
> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> > (the 'Global South').
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Sudhir Gota
> Transport Specialist
> CAI-Asia Center
> Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower,
> ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City
> Metro Manila, Philippines 1605
> Tel: +63-2-395-2843
> Fax: +63-2-395-2846
> Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org
> Skype : sudhirgota
> --------------------------------------------------------
> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real
> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
>
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> (the 'Global South').
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
“..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment
to destroy the city“
Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel
Munich 1970
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Sujit Patwardhan
patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com
sujitjp at gmail.com
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