From Lwright at vivacities.org Mon Mar 1 22:51:26 2010 From: Lwright at vivacities.org (Lloyd Wright) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 21:51:26 +0800 Subject: [sustran] ADB Research Associate position Message-ID: <003101cab946$4a81f2c0$df85d840$@org> Rising motorisation levels in Asia coupled with limitations in fuel supply are creating conditions in which energy security is becoming a central issue. The Asian Development Bank (ADB) is developing a new initiative called the Asia Sustainable Fuel Partnership to create a market-based mechanism to address energy security. It is hoped that the advent of Fuel Security Credits will provide another funding avenue for cities seeking to implement sustainable transport measures. ADB is seeking an individual to fill the post of "Research Associate" to assist in developing this concept. For anyone interested in this position, please see the following site: http://csrn.adb.org/csrn/publicNoticeList.htm?projectNo=41270 &projectSeqNo=01&projectTypeCd=2&listingNo=T4&deadline=15-MAR-2010&pageSourc e=DIRECT Applications will be taken until 15 March 2010. Please feel free to distribute this notice as widely as possible. Viva Changing the world...one street at a time. Lloyd Wright Executive Director Email: Lwright@vivacities.org Skype: vivacities From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Thu Mar 4 00:52:15 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 16:52:15 +0100 Subject: [sustran] The World Streets Forum, Library and Reading Room Message-ID: <01d801cabae9$873452e0$959cf8a0$@britton@ecoplan.org> The World Streets Forum, Library and Reading Room http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_kbTo-M_pSuw/S45uc94koHI/AAAAAAAACmk/J9FzhzwTwJU/s2 00/ws-mailbox-hand.jpgThere are several alternative ways of accessing and keeping track of the considerable daily contents of World Streets, among them the various RSS links and bookmarks you will see the top of the menu just your left. It has been our experience in other programs of the New Mobility Agenda, that one of the best ways for colleagues to tie all of this together is by joining the group forum, as introduced here. --> The full text of this article appears in today's World Streets at http://WorldStreets.org/ --> Discussions on World Streets Forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldStreets (Post to WorldStreets@yahoogroups.com ) Read World Streets Today at http://www.worldstreets.org/ New Mobility Partnerships - http://www.newmobility.org 8/10 rue Joseph Bara, 75006 Paris, France, Europe +331 4326 1323 eric.britton(at)newmobility.org Skype: newmobility -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 6582 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20100303/23da478f/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 2714 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20100303/23da478f/attachment-0001.jpe From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Thu Mar 4 01:40:02 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 17:40:02 +0100 Subject: [sustran] World Streets - change in notification routine starts today Message-ID: <027401cabaf0$2e32d0c0$8a987240$@britton@ecoplan.org> Paris, Wednesday, March 03, 2010 Dear Sustran colleagues, Yesterday World Streets celebrated its first anniversary. Hurrah! And one of our hopes for Year 2 is that we will now become not only better but also more efficient, including in our certainly too copious mailings to several of our New Mobility fora in our (too) earnest attempts to keep you all informed about progress and publications. As part of this, starting today we have decided to simplify radically the process of communication about our articles and contributions. To this end we have created a separate forum which you are invited to visit at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldStreets/. And for an explanation of how this works, we would refer you to today's lead posting at www.WorldStreets.org, entitled "The World Streets Forum, Library and Reading Room". Against this backdrop, the present note is to invite you, if you are interested to follow what is going on in the world's only sustainable transportation daily, to do one of two things, both of which considerably more efficient than my relentless peppering of several of our New Mobility fora with almost daily postings over these last months. . The first option is to invite you to sign in to the new forum, for which you will find full details in today's lead article. . The second will be to suggest you set up an RSS link, for which you will see full guidelines in the left column of the journal. That's it. World Streets is a great read, but we have to make it easier and more agreeable for all of us in the future. I hope you appreciate this advance, and as always we look forward to your suggestions and eventual contributions to the Journal. With all good wishes, Eric Britton Managing editor For World Streets at worldstreets.org From phaizan at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 15:30:36 2010 From: phaizan at gmail.com (Faizan Jawed) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:00:36 +0530 Subject: [sustran] First Modern Bicycle Rental in Mumbai Message-ID: http://getahead.rediff.com/report/2010/mar/04/meet-eco-entrepreneur-v-ramesh.htm This CEO quit his job to become an eco-entrepreneur March 04, 2010 08:42 IST [image: V Ramesh]A year ago when V Ramesh was 48, an age when high-fliers look for the glorious last lap before reaching the age of retirement, he was bit by the entrepreneurial bug. He called it quits as the CEO of a non-banking finance company to pursue his eco-friendly passion. After slogging over his bicycle-on-share concept for the last one year Ramesh has finally introduced FreMo (freedom to move; http://www.fremo.in/) India's [ Images ] first state-of-the-art bicycle sharing programme. The project envisages helping the commuters cover the first and last mile of their daily travel to the railway station or bus stop. "Every day about 7 lakh people come to Thane (a distant suburb on the outskirts of Mumbai [ Images]) railway station from different parts of the city. They come by cars, motorcycles, buses and auto rickshaws. However, a lot of time is wasted as people keep waiting endlessly for an auto rickshaw or a bus to ply them to their destination. Besides the traffic congestion makes it worse," says Ramesh. He said that his programme intends to give relief to the commuters who want to opt for an economical, eco-friendly and healthy ride. The word sharing is a misnomer as it implies something that comes for free. "I also don't want to use the word rental as people have a very different idea about rentals. Though bicycle rental no longer exists in the city, it implies that the vehicle had to be surrendered from the place where it had been hired. Thus there is no concept of freedom in the rental system," said Ramesh. He clarifies that 'sharing' does not mean 'free' but compared to other modes of transport it is more economical. As per Ramesh's estimates bicycle ride will enable the members to make a saving of Rs 30 to 40 a day on travel expenses. What Ramesh is offering is brand new unisex bicycles along with lock, helmet, bag and raincoat (during monsoon) that could be picked up from any of its six depots and similarly deposited at any of its five depots. The cycles carry radio frequency tags and members have smart cards containing the information of time of delivery, identity of the cycle and mention other accessories being taken. The membership process is similar to the mobile service providers -- choose the plan, make payment and submit documents. The payment is also similar to mobile service providers with the options of both pre-paid and post-paid available. Owning a bicycle, explained the entrepreneur, comes with the responsibility of maintaining it regularly. "Regular maintenance of bicycles is a big dampener for its owners. Often bicycles are seen rotting in and around the buildings," said Ramesh. Mandar Datar, a businessman who has his office at Kalwa in Thane, says he was unable to maintain his two bicycles that were used by his office boys for running errands. "FreMo had opened its depot near my office and I enquired out of curiosity. Maintenance of bicycles was a problem and hence opted for this scheme on a trial. It is almost two months and everything is running smoothly," said Datar who is glad that he opted for FreMo. It is not just businessmen who are getting the bicycles for their staff. Ramesh says that some of his members own cars and motorcycles. After his voluntary retirement from the banking sector Shekar Swaminathan (56), a health conscious person, alternates between walking and cycling on the picturesque Yeoor Hills. "Besides using the cycle for exercise I also use it to commute the 3 km distance between my residence and Thane railway station. Getting on public transport is difficult and so is driving a car. So this is the most sensible way to commute to the railway station," said Swaminathan. Though he had initially intended to start 40 locations across Mumbai and Thane, availability of funding limited the programme to Thane. "As a CEO of stock broking servicing corporate clients I was dealing in voluminous amounts of money and Rs 2 crore envisaged for my project seemed like cakewalk to me," said Ramesh. To raise the money was easier said than done. Ramesh finally got his funding from Bank of Baroda [ Get Quote]. From sudhir at cai-asia.org Sun Mar 7 13:22:23 2010 From: sudhir at cai-asia.org (Sudhir) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 12:22:23 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian Budget Message-ID: Dear all, We are searching for % of Budget allocated for pedestrians in our cities and unfortunately could not find many Asian cities. Do you know how much % of money authorities are planning to invest on pedestrians in your city? thanks, Sudhir Gota Transport Specialist CAI-Asia Center Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 Tel: +63-2-395-2843 Fax: +63-2-395-2846 Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org Skype : sudhirgota From patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 18:55:18 2010 From: patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com (Sujit Patwardhan) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 15:25:18 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> 7 March 2010 Dear Sudhir, We are doing an analysis of the PMC Budget - passed a few days back. The percentage of all Pedestrian and non motorised infrastructure is very small though by including totally unnecessary and horrendous structures like the Sky-Walk (another name for Pedestrian Over bridges where pedestrians are made to climb up many steps) under the head - "pedestrian facilities" the budgets gives a misleading picture. These Sky-Walks just like most Flyovers are nothing but opportunities for high kick backs and white elephant projects for the agencies and contractors apart from acting as one more stab in the back for pedestrians whose miserable life (having to walk on most roads with poor condition of pavements) is already so painful that it is not right to make him climb up many steps just to make the road free for auto vehicles. In fact the impetus for the sky-walks comes from two sources - first is corruption, and the second from the belief that roads are meant mainly for auto-mobiles and getting the pedestrians off the roads is a good idea for improving traffic. We feel auto vehicles must stop as often and as long as necessary for the pedestrians to cross roads at grade. If on account of the high number of pedestrians the timing for cars to stop is too long - that is a proof that the road is ripe for pedestrians only treatment. The automobile then needs to be banned or severely restricted through TDM measures. As usual I have been liberal in answering your question but I thought one could get a wrong picture by taking too narrow a focus while looking at the budget. We will share our findings about the Pune Municipal Corporation Budget with you. Should take about three weeks I guess. With warm regards, -- Sujit On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Sudhir wrote: > Dear all, > > We are searching for % of Budget allocated for pedestrians in our cities > and > unfortunately could not find many Asian cities. > > Do you know how much % of money authorities are planning to invest on > pedestrians in your city? > > thanks, > Sudhir Gota > Transport Specialist > CAI-Asia Center > Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, > ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City > Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 > Tel: +63-2-395-2843 > Fax: +63-2-395-2846 > Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org > Skype : sudhirgota > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ?..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment to destroy the city? Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel Munich 1970 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sujit Patwardhan patwardhan.sujit@gmail.com sujitjp@gmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India Tel: +91 20 25537955 Cell: +91 98220 26627 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Parisar: www.parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From sudhir at cai-asia.org Sun Mar 7 19:20:16 2010 From: sudhir at cai-asia.org (Sudhir) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 18:20:16 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget In-Reply-To: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Sujit, Coming from Bangalore, a city of flyovers which has just started massive pedestrian crossings in the air .. i cannot agree more. But i would also suggest that if you can have a context sensitive design in place.. it may work in few places as shown in Makati in Manila. One cannot just retrofit staircases everywhere. We are about to complete a project for ADB which looks extensively at the issues pertaining to walkability. We are looking at around 10 cities. We partnered with local universities and local NGO's from CAI partnership in taking this challenge and doing small scale walkability surveys which includes infrastructure assessment and pedestrian interviews ( we have approx 2000 Asians suggesting their requirements as to what they need from policymakers) . We hope to keep this alive with annual surveys and media campaign and you would be seeing more local level pressure being exerted in coming days. we would circulate more in coming weeks... lets hope for the best.. thanks Sudhir On 7 March 2010 17:55, Sujit Patwardhan wrote: > 7 March 2010 > > > > Dear Sudhir, > We are doing an analysis of the PMC Budget - passed a few days back. The > percentage of all Pedestrian and non motorised infrastructure is very small > though by including totally unnecessary and horrendous structures like the > Sky-Walk (another name for Pedestrian Over bridges where pedestrians are > made to climb up many steps) under the head - "pedestrian facilities" the > budgets gives a misleading picture. These Sky-Walks just like most Flyovers > are nothing but opportunities for high kick backs and white elephant > projects for the agencies and contractors apart from acting as one more stab > in the back for pedestrians whose miserable life (having to walk on most > roads with poor condition of pavements) is already so painful that it is not > right to make him climb up many steps just to make the road free for auto > vehicles. In fact the impetus for the sky-walks comes from two sources - > first is corruption, and the second from the belief that roads are meant > mainly for auto-mobiles and getting the pedestrians off the roads is a good > idea for improving traffic. > > We feel auto vehicles must stop as often and as long as necessary for the > pedestrians to cross roads at grade. If on account of the high number of > pedestrians the timing for cars to stop is too long - that is a proof that > the road is ripe for pedestrians only treatment. The automobile then needs > to be banned or severely restricted through TDM measures. > > As usual I have been liberal in answering your question but I thought one > could get a wrong picture by taking too narrow a focus while looking at the > budget. > We will share our findings about the Pune Municipal Corporation Budget with > you. Should take about three weeks I guess. > > With warm regards, > -- > Sujit > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Sudhir wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> We are searching for % of Budget allocated for pedestrians in our cities >> and >> unfortunately could not find many Asian cities. >> >> Do you know how much % of money authorities are planning to invest on >> pedestrians in your city? >> >> thanks, >> Sudhir Gota >> Transport Specialist >> CAI-Asia Center >> Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, >> ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City >> Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 >> Tel: +63-2-395-2843 >> Fax: +63-2-395-2846 >> Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org >> Skype : sudhirgota >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> > > > > -- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ?..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment > to destroy the city? > > Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel > Munich 1970 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Sujit Patwardhan > patwardhan.sujit@gmail.com > sujitjp@gmail.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India > Tel: +91 20 25537955 > Cell: +91 98220 26627 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Parisar: www.parisar.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > -- Sudhir Gota Transport Specialist CAI-Asia Center Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 Tel: +63-2-395-2843 Fax: +63-2-395-2846 Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org Skype : sudhirgota From cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org Sun Mar 7 21:29:26 2010 From: cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org (Cornie Huizenga) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 20:29:26 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget In-Reply-To: References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> Dear Sudhir and others, I think that it is important, desirable and possible to assess whether pedestrian $$ are spend in a empowering manner for pedestrians, whether they are neutral or whether they are (as Sujit might put it) hidden incentives for cars. I agree that i some cases, elevated walkways can make sense if they are done in a structured and systematic manner. E.g. Hong Kong, Bangkok or in parts of Makati. The reason these work is that they have moved the grade from ground level to one story up in the air. In the case of Hong Kong and Bangkok they are directly linked to public transport. In other cases, as in other parts of metro Manila they are done so that pedestrians are out of the way of the cars. Sometimes in a very inconvenient manner - the one at Edsa and Ortigas avenue is constructed for midgets only. When I passed there I had to crunch in order not too lose my head!! Cornie On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Sudhir wrote: > Dear Sujit, > > Coming from Bangalore, a city of flyovers which has just started massive > pedestrian crossings in the air .. i cannot agree more. But i would also > suggest that if you can have a context sensitive design in place.. it may > work in few places as shown in Makati in Manila. One cannot just retrofit > staircases everywhere. > > We are about to complete a project for ADB which looks extensively at the > issues pertaining to walkability. We are looking at around 10 cities. We > partnered with local universities and local NGO's from CAI partnership in > taking this challenge and doing small scale walkability surveys which > includes infrastructure assessment and pedestrian interviews ( we have > approx 2000 Asians suggesting their requirements as to what they need from > policymakers) . We hope to keep this alive with annual surveys and media > campaign and you would be seeing more local level pressure being exerted in > coming days. > > we would circulate more in coming weeks... > > lets hope for the best.. > > thanks > Sudhir > > On 7 March 2010 17:55, Sujit Patwardhan > wrote: > > > 7 March 2010 > > > > > > > > Dear Sudhir, > > We are doing an analysis of the PMC Budget - passed a few days back. The > > percentage of all Pedestrian and non motorised infrastructure is very > small > > though by including totally unnecessary and horrendous structures like > the > > Sky-Walk (another name for Pedestrian Over bridges where pedestrians are > > made to climb up many steps) under the head - "pedestrian facilities" > the > > budgets gives a misleading picture. These Sky-Walks just like most > Flyovers > > are nothing but opportunities for high kick backs and white elephant > > projects for the agencies and contractors apart from acting as one more > stab > > in the back for pedestrians whose miserable life (having to walk on most > > roads with poor condition of pavements) is already so painful that it is > not > > right to make him climb up many steps just to make the road free for auto > > vehicles. In fact the impetus for the sky-walks comes from two sources - > > first is corruption, and the second from the belief that roads are meant > > mainly for auto-mobiles and getting the pedestrians off the roads is a > good > > idea for improving traffic. > > > > We feel auto vehicles must stop as often and as long as necessary for the > > pedestrians to cross roads at grade. If on account of the high number of > > pedestrians the timing for cars to stop is too long - that is a proof > that > > the road is ripe for pedestrians only treatment. The automobile then > needs > > to be banned or severely restricted through TDM measures. > > > > As usual I have been liberal in answering your question but I thought one > > could get a wrong picture by taking too narrow a focus while looking at > the > > budget. > > We will share our findings about the Pune Municipal Corporation Budget > with > > you. Should take about three weeks I guess. > > > > With warm regards, > > -- > > Sujit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Sudhir wrote: > > > >> Dear all, > >> > >> We are searching for % of Budget allocated for pedestrians in our cities > >> and > >> unfortunately could not find many Asian cities. > >> > >> Do you know how much % of money authorities are planning to invest on > >> pedestrians in your city? > >> > >> thanks, > >> Sudhir Gota > >> Transport Specialist > >> CAI-Asia Center > >> Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, > >> ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City > >> Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 > >> Tel: +63-2-395-2843 > >> Fax: +63-2-395-2846 > >> Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org > >> Skype : sudhirgota > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >> > >> ================================================================ > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > >> (the 'Global South'). > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ?..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment > > to destroy the city? > > > > Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel > > Munich 1970 > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Sujit Patwardhan > > patwardhan.sujit@gmail.com > > sujitjp@gmail.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India > > Tel: +91 20 25537955 > > Cell: +91 98220 26627 > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Parisar: www.parisar.org > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > -- > Sudhir Gota > Transport Specialist > CAI-Asia Center > Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, > ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City > Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 > Tel: +63-2-395-2843 > Fax: +63-2-395-2846 > Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org > Skype : sudhirgota > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- Cornie Huizenga Joint Convener Partnership on Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport Mobile: +86 13901949332 cornie.huizenga@slocatpartnership.org www.slocat.net From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Sun Mar 7 21:36:13 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 13:36:13 +0100 Subject: [sustran] ten cities walkability project In-Reply-To: References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <009e01cabdf2$c9b57c50$5d2074f0$@britton@ecoplan.org> Dear All, This ten cities walkability project is going to be very important for our readers over here at World Streets. I very much hope that we will find good ways to report in our pages on the main findings, with all the usual and oh so necessary links and references. We count on you. With all good wishes, Eric PS. Do not forget friends. Tomorrow is International Women's Day. Let's all celbrate it. We will on World Streets and I hope that many of you will do the same. Eric Britton Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. World Streets . www.worldstreets.org 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton From litman at vtpi.org Mon Mar 8 00:32:00 2010 From: litman at vtpi.org (Todd Alexander Litman) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 07:32:00 -0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100307153205.5C63F2DFDD@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> For information on estimated public expenditures on pedestrian and cycling infrastructure in the U.S. see: "Bicycling and Walking in the U.S.: 2010 Benchmarking Report" by the Alliance for Biking & Walking, (http://www.peoplepoweredmovement.org/site/index.php/site/memberservices/C529. For information on the value of non-motorized transportation see: Todd Litman (2003), "Economic Value of Walkability," Transportation Research Record 1828, Transportation Research Board (www.trb.org), pp. 3-11; at www.vtpi.org/walkability.pdf. Todd Litman (2004), Quantifying the Benefits of Non-Motorized Transport for Achieving TDM Objectives, Victoria Transport Policy Institute (www.vtpi.org); at www.vtpi.org/nmt-tdm.pdf. Most conventional travel surveys greatly undercount walking and cycling activity because they overlook short trips, non-commute trips, travel by children, and walking links of motorized trips. For example, a bike-bus-walk trip is generally counted simply as a transit trip; the bicycling and walking links are ignored even if they involve more travel time than the bus or train ride. In virtually all examples studied, walking and cycling receive less funding than their proportional mode share. For example, even in North American cities typically 5-15% of trips and 15-30% of travel time are by non-motorized modes, yet walking and cycling receive less than 5% of total public infrastructure funding, and much less when parking facility subsidies are also considered. Best wishes, -Todd Litman At 08:22 PM 06/03/2010, Sudhir wrote: >Dear all, > >We are searching for % of Budget allocated for pedestrians in our cities and >unfortunately could not find many Asian cities. > >Do you know how much % of money authorities are planning to invest on >pedestrians in your city? > >thanks, >Sudhir Gota >Transport Specialist >CAI-Asia Center >Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, >ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City >Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 >Tel: +63-2-395-2843 >Fax: +63-2-395-2846 >Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org >Skype : sudhirgota >-------------------------------------------------------- >To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >-------------------------------------------------------- >If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the >real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >================================================================ >SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >countries (the 'Global South'). Sincerely, Todd Alexander Litman Victoria Transport Policy Institute (www.vtpi.org) litman@vtpi.org Phone & Fax 250-360-1560 1250 Rudlin Street, Victoria, BC, V8V 3R7, CANADA "Efficiency - Equity - Clarity" From kanthikannan at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 14:23:47 2010 From: kanthikannan at gmail.com (Kanthi Kannan) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 10:53:47 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Hyderabad : Peeing in the open Message-ID: <4b9489e9.5644f10a.1ac0.2ce6@mx.google.com> http://www.deccanchronicle.com/hyderabad/zip-pee-open- 'stripping'-128 Hyderabad, March 7: Relieving oneself in public places is equivalent to stripping in public and should be made a punishable offence, a Hyderabad-based NGO said in petitions submitted to the National Women's Commission and the Andhra Pradesh State Human Rights Commission. Ms Kanthi Kanan, founder of the Right to Walk Foundation that filed the petition, further stated that urinating in public places - footpaths, near bus stands and even main roads - is not only a public nuisance, it also causes embarrassment and humiliation to women. "Women have to turn their heads the other way or cover their faces with their sari pallus or chunnis to avoid embarrassment...The Greater Hyderabad Municipal Corporation has failed to check the menace," Ms Kannan told this correspondent. Her petition to the human rights commission highlights a citizen's right to walk unhindered on a clean footpath. The failure of the GHMC to address the problem constitutes a violation of a citizen's fundamental rights to education, work, an adequate standard of living, and freedom of movement and residence, she said. The president of the Progressive Organisation of Women, Ms V. Sandhya, said that the onus is put on women to try and get past a man who is openly urinating in public. "A law needs to be brought with stringent punishment to put an end to the anti-social act," she said. The GHMC commissioner, Dr Sameer Sharma, says fining people "did not work" so "now we are identifying all roads where public toilets and urinals must be constructed. From joshirutul at yahoo.co.in Tue Mar 9 04:32:21 2010 From: joshirutul at yahoo.co.in (Rutul Joshi) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 01:02:21 +0530 (IST) Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget In-Reply-To: <20100307153205.5C63F2DFDD@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> References: <20100307153205.5C63F2DFDD@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> Message-ID: <670698.63596.qm@web8407.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi?Sudhir and others, It is rather difficult to find something specific for the pedestrians in any city budgets in India.?In budget heads, footpaths are sub-heads under 'roads and bridges' and sometimes there are simply not mentioned. Besides, spending money is one thing and having walkable footpaths is another. The?budgets of?most JnNURM cities are inflated with the JnNURM funds and?the?share for the pedestrians, both in terms of money and space, is?becoming meagre as most of the money is spent on building roads/bridges/flyovers. For example, in Ahmedabad budget 2009-10: * The revenue expenditure on items named 'footpaths' increased from Rs?2.1 millions?(2006-07) to Rs 3.8?millions (2008-09) with estimate of Rs 5.7?millions in 2009-10 budget. However, Total revenue expenditure under 'Roads, streets, footpath' increase from Rs 133.1 millions (2006-07) to Rs?154.2?millions (2008-09) with estimate of Rs?194.6?millions in 2009-10 budget. * Total?capital expenditure under 'Roads, streets, footpath' increase from Rs?8 millions (2006-07) to Rs?23?millions (2008-09) with estimate of Rs?832.5?millions (!)?in 2009-10 budget. Interestingly, there is no mention of 'footpaths' in the break up here and?it seems that most of the money is spent on re-surfacing/building roads. But I could be wrong here. * The total size of Ahmedabad budget estimate in 2009-10 was Rs. 23000 millions approximately. You can draw your own conclusion here. A word of caution -?we are only looking at a label called 'roads, streets, footpaths or roads/bridges'?here and it does not include money spent under any other specific projects. One often finds municipal officials commenting informally that the footpaths 'encourages' encroachments and in order to 'discourage' encroachments, we should?not invest in footpaths! So we have widest possible roads with smallest? possible footpaths in our city. And it is obviously not a great policy to 'stop' encroachments either. With more and more cities are likely to take up the transport project under JnNURM, it is becoming crucial to protect the needs of the pedestrians. There is no guarantee that the?money (for that matter, even space)?for pedestrians would not be subverted to be used as something else. It?would be a?great loss that even with more progressive national urban transport policy, we could not make legitimate space for walking in Indian cities. regards, Rutul ? ? ________________________________ From: Todd Alexander Litman To: Sudhir ; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Sent: Sun, 7 March, 2010 3:32:00 PM Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget For information on estimated public expenditures on pedestrian and cycling infrastructure in the U.S. see: "Bicycling and Walking in the U.S.: 2010 Benchmarking Report" by the Alliance for Biking & Walking, (http://www.peoplepoweredmovement.org/site/index.php/site/memberservices/C529. For information on the value of non-motorized transportation see: Todd Litman (2003), "Economic Value of Walkability," Transportation Research Record 1828, Transportation Research Board (www.trb.org), pp. 3-11; at www.vtpi.org/walkability.pdf. Todd Litman (2004), Quantifying the Benefits of Non-Motorized Transport for Achieving TDM Objectives, Victoria Transport Policy Institute (www.vtpi.org); at www.vtpi.org/nmt-tdm.pdf. Most conventional travel surveys greatly undercount walking and cycling activity because they overlook short trips, non-commute trips, travel by children, and walking links of motorized trips. For example, a bike-bus-walk trip is generally counted simply as a transit trip; the bicycling and walking links are ignored even if they involve more travel time than the bus or train ride. In virtually all examples studied, walking and cycling receive less funding than their proportional mode share. For example, even in North American cities typically 5-15% of trips and 15-30% of travel time are by non-motorized modes, yet walking and cycling receive less than 5% of total public infrastructure funding, and much less when parking facility subsidies are also considered. Best wishes, -Todd Litman At 08:22 PM 06/03/2010, Sudhir wrote: >Dear all, > >We are searching for % of Budget allocated for pedestrians in our cities and >unfortunately could not find many Asian cities. > >Do you know how much % of money authorities are planning? to invest on >pedestrians in your city? > >thanks, >Sudhir Gota >Transport Specialist >CAI-Asia Center >Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, >ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City >Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 >Tel: +63-2-395-2843begin_of_the_skype_highlighting??????????????+63-2-395-2843??????end_of_the_skype_highlighting >Fax: +63-2-395-2846 >Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org >Skype : sudhirgota >-------------------------------------------------------- >To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >-------------------------------------------------------- >If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the >real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >================================================================ >SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >countries (the 'Global South'). Sincerely, Todd Alexander Litman Victoria Transport Policy Institute (www.vtpi.org) litman@vtpi.org Phone & Fax 250-360-1560 1250 Rudlin Street, Victoria, BC, V8V 3R7, CANADA "Efficiency - Equity - Clarity" -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/ From yanivbin at gmail.com Tue Mar 9 14:26:17 2010 From: yanivbin at gmail.com (Vinay Baindur) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 10:56:17 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Here's the silver lining on B'lore's pollution cloud Message-ID: <86b8a7051003082126m4787e08w690143af7d08c4e1@mail.gmail.com> *Here's the silver lining on B'lore's pollution cloud* Bosky Khanna. Bangalore Here is one reason why Bus Day should occur not once a month, but right through the year, every day. Statistics obtained from the Karnataka State Pollution Control Board (KSPCB) show that there is a marked reduction in pollution levels on Bus Day. On both February 4 and March 4, there were lower levels of particulate suspended matter and other pollutants in city air, tested at different points. KSPCB chairman AS Sadashivaiah would like to err on the side of caution. He warns that there is inadequate data to draw conclusions on consistent patterns. The pollution levels are monitored at different locations in the city, so comparisons across these different sites do not reveal much about pollution levels at different points of time, he says. Air pollution levels depend on multiple factors ? dust levels, ongoing construction work, the nature of the area surrounding the location where the pollution level is monitored, whether it is residential or commercial, and the density of the population. More data and systematic studies are necessary before conclusions on the patterns of pollution can be established, Sadashivaiah points out. KSPCB data shows that the levels of respirable suspended particulate matter (RSPM) on February 4, when the Bus Day was observed for the first time, at Marathahalli (Old Airport Road) was 110 micrograms per metre cube (MPMC), while on March 4, at Bannerghatta Road, it was 96 MPMC. The standard value of RSPM is 100 MPMC. Pollution Control Board data also shows significant reduction in carbon monoxide levels at sites where pollution was monitored on Bus Day. CO2 levels fell by 12.73% on March 4. Although that is a note-worthy reduction, there is need for more data to corroborate the inference that the reduction in CO2 can be attributed to Bus Day. What is significant is that the data also indicates a sharp increase in pollution levels on the day after the Bus Day, showing that there is indeed a link between lower levels of pollutants in the air and the mode of transport. "It is good that the encouragement to ride the bus is fast becoming a regular feature," said Sadashivaiah, cautiously optimistic about the reduction of air pollution in the city. From sudhir at cai-asia.org Thu Mar 11 09:30:39 2010 From: sudhir at cai-asia.org (Sudhir) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:30:39 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget In-Reply-To: References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Jason, Rutul, Saiful and Todd, Thanks a lot for the insights from your side and now we have many examples to show as to whats happening in Asia... It looks that currently Taipei has a fairly detailed list which does not contain only footpath or overhead crossings.... I would be posting few things which i have found in next few days..... thanks Sudhir On 10 March 2010 23:51, JasonChang wrote: > Dear Sudhir and Friends, > > I got something from the 2010 Budget Plan of Taipei City Government: > > Total Budget of Taipei City Government (2010): US$5,246.06 million > > Budget for Pedestrians > (1) Side walk improvement: US$8.07 million > (2) Pedestrian access facilities to waterfront: US$9.71 million > (3) Pedestrian signal and related devices: US$0.1 million > (4) Others (e.g., access facilities connecting public transport, > maintenance, ...): 2.0 million (approximated) > > Jason > > -------------- > ????? ??????? > Dr. S. K. Jason CHANG (ZHANG Xue-kong) > Professor, Department of Civil Engineering > National Taiwan University > Visiting Professor > China Academy of Transportation Sciences, MOT China > Visiting Professor > Tongji University, Shanghai China > #1 Roosevelt Road, Section 4 > Taipei, 10617, Taiwan > voice:+886-935178543 fax:+886-223639990 > skchang@ntu.edu.tw skchang2020@yahoo.com.tw > http://ce11012.ce.ntu.edu.tw > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+skchang=ccms.ntu.edu.tw@list.jca.apc.org[mailto: > sustran-discuss-bounces+skchang = > ccms.ntu.edu.tw@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Cornie Huizenga > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 8:29 PM > To: Sudhir > Cc: Salil Bijur; Kanchan; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget > > Dear Sudhir and others, > > I think that it is important, desirable and possible to assess whether > pedestrian $$ are spend in a empowering manner for pedestrians, whether > they > are neutral or whether they are (as Sujit might put it) hidden incentives > for cars. > > I agree that i some cases, elevated walkways can make sense if they are > done > in a structured and systematic manner. E.g. Hong Kong, Bangkok or in parts > of Makati. The reason these work is that they have moved the grade from > ground level to one story up in the air. In the case of Hong Kong and > Bangkok they are directly linked to public transport. In other cases, as in > other parts of metro Manila they are done so that pedestrians are out of > the > way of the cars. Sometimes in a very inconvenient manner - the one at Edsa > and Ortigas avenue is constructed for midgets only. When I passed there I > had to crunch in order not too lose my head!! > > Cornie > > On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Sudhir wrote: > > > Dear Sujit, > > > > Coming from Bangalore, a city of flyovers which has just started massive > > pedestrian crossings in the air .. i cannot agree more. But i would also > > suggest that if you can have a context sensitive design in place.. it may > > work in few places as shown in Makati in Manila. One cannot just > retrofit > > staircases everywhere. > > > > We are about to complete a project for ADB which looks extensively at the > > issues pertaining to walkability. We are looking at around 10 cities. We > > partnered with local universities and local NGO's from CAI partnership in > > taking this challenge and doing small scale walkability surveys which > > includes infrastructure assessment and pedestrian interviews ( we have > > approx 2000 Asians suggesting their requirements as to what they need > from > > policymakers) . We hope to keep this alive with annual surveys and media > > campaign and you would be seeing more local level pressure being exerted > in > > coming days. > > > > we would circulate more in coming weeks... > > > > lets hope for the best.. > > > > thanks > > Sudhir > > > > On 7 March 2010 17:55, Sujit Patwardhan > > wrote: > > > > > 7 March 2010 > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sudhir, > > > We are doing an analysis of the PMC Budget - passed a few days back. > The > > > percentage of all Pedestrian and non motorised infrastructure is very > > small > > > though by including totally unnecessary and horrendous structures like > > the > > > Sky-Walk (another name for Pedestrian Over bridges where pedestrians > are > > > made to climb up many steps) under the head - "pedestrian facilities" > > the > > > budgets gives a misleading picture. These Sky-Walks just like most > > Flyovers > > > are nothing but opportunities for high kick backs and white elephant > > > projects for the agencies and contractors apart from acting as one more > > stab > > > in the back for pedestrians whose miserable life (having to walk on > most > > > roads with poor condition of pavements) is already so painful that it > is > > not > > > right to make him climb up many steps just to make the road free for > auto > > > vehicles. In fact the impetus for the sky-walks comes from two sources > - > > > first is corruption, and the second from the belief that roads are > meant > > > mainly for auto-mobiles and getting the pedestrians off the roads is a > > good > > > idea for improving traffic. > > > > > > We feel auto vehicles must stop as often and as long as necessary for > the > > > pedestrians to cross roads at grade. If on account of the high number > of > > > pedestrians the timing for cars to stop is too long - that is a proof > > that > > > the road is ripe for pedestrians only treatment. The automobile then > > needs > > > to be banned or severely restricted through TDM measures. > > > > > > As usual I have been liberal in answering your question but I thought > one > > > could get a wrong picture by taking too narrow a focus while looking at > > the > > > budget. > > > We will share our findings about the Pune Municipal Corporation Budget > > with > > > you. Should take about three weeks I guess. > > > > > > With warm regards, > > > -- > > > Sujit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Sudhir wrote: > > > > > >> Dear all, > > >> > > >> We are searching for % of Budget allocated for pedestrians in our > cities > > >> and > > >> unfortunately could not find many Asian cities. > > >> > > >> Do you know how much % of money authorities are planning to invest on > > >> pedestrians in your city? > > >> > > >> thanks, > > >> Sudhir Gota > > >> Transport Specialist > > >> CAI-Asia Center > > >> Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, > > >> ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City > > >> Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 > > >> Tel: +63-2-395-2843 > > >> Fax: +63-2-395-2846 > > >> Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org > > >> Skype : sudhirgota > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > >> > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > > real > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > >> > > >> ================================================================ > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ?..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment > > > to destroy the city? > > > > > > Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel > > > Munich 1970 > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > Sujit Patwardhan > > > patwardhan.sujit@gmail.com > > > sujitjp@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India > > > Tel: +91 20 25537955 > > > Cell: +91 98220 26627 > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Parisar: www.parisar.org > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Sudhir Gota > > Transport Specialist > > CAI-Asia Center > > Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, > > ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City > > Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 > > Tel: +63-2-395-2843 > > Fax: +63-2-395-2846 > > Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org > > Skype : sudhirgota > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > -- > Cornie Huizenga > Joint Convener > Partnership on Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport > Mobile: +86 13901949332 > cornie.huizenga@slocatpartnership.org > www.slocat.net > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > -- Sudhir Gota Transport Specialist CAI-Asia Center Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 Tel: +63-2-395-2843 Fax: +63-2-395-2846 Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org Skype : sudhirgota From carlosfpardo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 10:43:25 2010 From: carlosfpardo at gmail.com (Carlosfelipe Pardo) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:43:25 -0500 Subject: [sustran] What to do with 900 bikes? Message-ID: <7272a1b31003101743q3b4f17adne36e79ab8525ac0f@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I have a practical problem: Bogot?'s traffic police have taken away bicycles from people not wearing helmets, and getting them back costs more than the actual cost of the bike. In consequence, there are a couple of yards with some 900 bikes sitting there for the last 10 years. This week a judge has told a local organization that they are willing to "donate them" for a noble cause, but that they must be taken from the yards before this Friday. They are getting a warehouse to store them at least from Friday and during some weeks, but now the questions are: - Will they be at all useful (imagine, bikes that have been in the open and under rain, sun, etc for up to 10 years...)? - If they're not useful as fully-functional bikes, what can they be used for? Some people have said they should do a sculpture, do various sculptures and do an auction with those sculptures, turn them into blocks of scrap metal... Now my question to all of you is: what would you do with 900 used-disfunctional bicycles? (of course, imagine you have very limited amounts of money to do something). Best regards, -- Carlosfelipe Pardo From edelman at greenidea.eu Thu Mar 11 12:18:06 2010 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:18:06 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: What to do with 900 bikes? In-Reply-To: <7272a1b31003101743q3b4f17adne36e79ab8525ac0f@mail.gmail.com> References: <7272a1b31003101743q3b4f17adne36e79ab8525ac0f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9860EE.4090608@greenidea.eu> Hi from Berlin, Seems a lot of these bikes can be used, even as "Frankenbikes" (with parts from several bikes being used to make one whole bike). Best would be to get some org to get the whole lot, store them somewhere else, and then go through them slowly and repair or have people repair in order to get one for free, with remaining bits available temporarily for functional bike sculptures or just sculptures... Functional bike sculptures: In regards to use as sculptures: Wow, this kind of repression you never hear about in discussions about Ciclovia or cycling in Bogot?! Confiscating bikes for not wearing helmets! What is the Spanish or Columbian version of "ignoring the elephant in the china shop" (putting too much emphasis on something with debatable merits like helmets when it is automobile speeds and number + bad driving which are the main issue in regards to road safety)? Even the US government went too far with this and admitted a mistake! See the following link starting with "Handy Lessons from Overseas": * OK, a focused suggestion: How about if ITDP Colombia in tandem with some local orgs. organise or hopefully sponsor a contest wherein artists or anyone have to use the leftover bike junk as the only raw material for sculptures (and even performances) on that "ignoring the elephant..." theme, perhaps specifically using helmet confiscation to highlight/continue to discuss the good and not so good things about transport policy in Bogot?? Would some art schools there agree to participate as a way to help with financing? Encouraging artists to get more involved in transport politics is always a good idea... (after all, the talented mobility sculptor who heads ITDP Colombia is not a transport engineer). - T * I was one of a perhaps small number of people who complained about this. Carlosfelipe Pardo wrote: > Hi, > > I have a practical problem: Bogot?'s traffic police have taken away > bicycles from people not wearing helmets, and getting them back costs > more than the actual cost of the bike. In consequence, there are a > couple of yards with some 900 bikes sitting there for the last 10 > years. This week a judge has told a local organization that they are > willing to "donate them" for a noble cause, but that they must be > taken from the yards before this Friday. They are getting a warehouse > to store them at least from Friday and during some weeks, but now the > questions are: > - Will they be at all useful (imagine, bikes that have been in the > open and under rain, sun, etc for up to 10 years...)? > - If they're not useful as fully-functional bikes, what can they be > used for? Some people have said they should do a sculpture, do various > sculptures and do an auction with those sculptures, turn them into > blocks of scrap metal... > > Now my question to all of you is: what would you do with 900 > used-disfunctional bicycles? (of course, imagine you have very limited > amounts of money to do something). > > Best regards, > > -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Green Idea Factory Urbanstr. 45 D-10967 Berlin Germany Skype: toddedelman Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081 edelman@greenidea.eu www.greenidea.eu www.flickr.com/photos/edelman CAR* is over. If you want it. "Fort mit der Privatautostadt und was Neues hingebaut!" - B. Brecht (with slight modification) * "Car" is a sub-category of automobile, i.e. one used inappropriately, opportunistically or without creativity From agimjo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 15:43:24 2010 From: agimjo at gmail.com (Joachim Bergerhoff) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:43:24 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: What to do with 900 bikes? In-Reply-To: <7272a1b31003101743q3b4f17adne36e79ab8525ac0f@mail.gmail.com> References: <7272a1b31003101743q3b4f17adne36e79ab8525ac0f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <493cf1c01003102243v402b01b1n673a3d9c98fe2591@mail.gmail.com> Are helmets still compulsory? Are they still confiscating bikes? In this case, you might want to give the newer bikes to the social ngos and melt down the old ones to transform them into iron cast cycling helmets ... j On 11 March 2010 02:43, Carlosfelipe Pardo wrote: > Hi, > > I have a practical problem: Bogot?'s traffic police have taken away > bicycles from people not wearing helmets, and getting them back costs > more than the actual cost of the bike. In consequence, there are a > couple of yards with some 900 bikes sitting there for the last 10 > years. This week a judge has told a local organization that they are > willing to "donate them" for a noble cause, but that they must be > taken from the yards before this Friday. They are getting a warehouse > to store them at least from Friday and during some weeks, but now the > questions are: > - Will they be at all useful (imagine, bikes that have been in the > open and under rain, sun, etc for up to 10 years...)? > - If they're not useful as fully-functional bikes, what can they be > used for? Some people have said they should do a sculpture, do various > sculptures and do an auction with those sculptures, turn them into > blocks of scrap metal... > > Now my question to all of you is: what would you do with 900 > used-disfunctional bicycles? (of course, imagine you have very limited > amounts of money to do something). > > Best regards, > > -- > Carlosfelipe Pardo > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). From operations at velomondial.net Thu Mar 11 16:06:29 2010 From: operations at velomondial.net (Pascal van den Noort) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:06:29 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: What to do with 900 bikes? In-Reply-To: <7272a1b31003101743q3b4f17adne36e79ab8525ac0f@mail.gmail.com> References: <7272a1b31003101743q3b4f17adne36e79ab8525ac0f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6B7DB057-FDC4-46F4-AF8D-0C41F423730A@velomondial.net> We have three purposes for left over bikes in Amsterdam: 1. scrap the really bad ones 2. sell for very cheap to students 3. send the rest to developing countries Number 1 & 2 would work I guess. Plus: Make a law forbidding police to take away their transport if some rule is trespassed. Are cars taken away if drivers don't use their safety belts? Pascal J.W. van den Noort Executive Director Velo Mondial http://velomondial.blogspot.com operations@velomondial.net +31206270675 landline +31627055688 mobile phone On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:43 AM, Carlosfelipe Pardo wrote: > Hi, > > I have a practical problem: Bogot?'s traffic police have taken away > bicycles from people not wearing helmets, and getting them back costs > more than the actual cost of the bike. In consequence, there are a > couple of yards with some 900 bikes sitting there for the last 10 > years. This week a judge has told a local organization that they are > willing to "donate them" for a noble cause, but that they must be > taken from the yards before this Friday. They are getting a warehouse > to store them at least from Friday and during some weeks, but now the > questions are: > - Will they be at all useful (imagine, bikes that have been in the > open and under rain, sun, etc for up to 10 years...)? > - If they're not useful as fully-functional bikes, what can they be > used for? Some people have said they should do a sculpture, do various > sculptures and do an auction with those sculptures, turn them into > blocks of scrap metal... > > Now my question to all of you is: what would you do with 900 > used-disfunctional bicycles? (of course, imagine you have very limited > amounts of money to do something). > > Best regards, > > -- > Carlosfelipe Pardo > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > From Regina.Anderson at worleyparsons.com Thu Mar 11 16:20:26 2010 From: Regina.Anderson at worleyparsons.com (Anderson, Regina (Singapore)) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:20:26 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: What to do with 900 bikes? References: <7272a1b31003101743q3b4f17adne36e79ab8525ac0f@mail.gmail.com> <6B7DB057-FDC4-46F4-AF8D-0C41F423730A@velomondial.net> Message-ID: <786FA965F7F7384F9BB242BBD23B6570669671@sgsinwpexm01.WorleyParsons.com> Well said. Regina Anderson, AICP Manager - Select Infrastructure & Environment WorleyParsons www.worleyparsons.com Tel: +65 6501 7195 Singapore Power Building, 12th Floor 111 Somerset Road Singapore 238164 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+regina.anderson=worleyparsons.com@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+regina.anderson=worleyparsons.com@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Pascal van den Noort Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 3:06 PM To: Carlosfelipe Pardo Cc: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Re: What to do with 900 bikes? We have three purposes for left over bikes in Amsterdam: 1. scrap the really bad ones 2. sell for very cheap to students 3. send the rest to developing countries Number 1 & 2 would work I guess. Plus: Make a law forbidding police to take away their transport if some rule is trespassed. Are cars taken away if drivers don't use their safety belts? Pascal J.W. van den Noort Executive Director Velo Mondial http://velomondial.blogspot.com operations@velomondial.net +31206270675 landline +31627055688 mobile phone On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:43 AM, Carlosfelipe Pardo wrote: > Hi, > > I have a practical problem: Bogot?'s traffic police have taken away > bicycles from people not wearing helmets, and getting them back costs > more than the actual cost of the bike. In consequence, there are a > couple of yards with some 900 bikes sitting there for the last 10 > years. This week a judge has told a local organization that they are > willing to "donate them" for a noble cause, but that they must be > taken from the yards before this Friday. They are getting a warehouse > to store them at least from Friday and during some weeks, but now the > questions are: > - Will they be at all useful (imagine, bikes that have been in the > open and under rain, sun, etc for up to 10 years...)? > - If they're not useful as fully-functional bikes, what can they be > used for? Some people have said they should do a sculpture, do various > sculptures and do an auction with those sculptures, turn them into > blocks of scrap metal... > > Now my question to all of you is: what would you do with 900 > used-disfunctional bicycles? (of course, imagine you have very limited > amounts of money to do something). > > Best regards, > > -- > Carlosfelipe Pardo > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). *** WORLEYPARSONS GROUP NOTICE *** "This email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not disclose or use the information contained in it. If you have received this email in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the email and any attachments. Any personal views or opinions expressed by the writer may not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of any company in the WorleyParsons Group of Companies." From skchang at ntu.edu.tw Thu Mar 11 00:51:33 2010 From: skchang at ntu.edu.tw (JasonChang) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:51:33 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget In-Reply-To: <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Sudhir and Friends, I got something from the 2010 Budget Plan of Taipei City Government: Total Budget of Taipei City Government (2010): US$5,246.06 million Budget for Pedestrians (1) Side walk improvement: US$8.07 million (2) Pedestrian access facilities to waterfront: US$9.71 million (3) Pedestrian signal and related devices: US$0.1 million (4) Others (e.g., access facilities connecting public transport, maintenance, ...): 2.0 million (approximated) Jason -------------- ????? ??????? Dr. S. K. Jason CHANG (ZHANG Xue-kong) Professor, Department of Civil Engineering National Taiwan University Visiting Professor China Academy of Transportation Sciences, MOT China Visiting Professor Tongji University, Shanghai China #1 Roosevelt Road, Section 4 Taipei, 10617, Taiwan voice:+886-935178543 fax:+886-223639990 skchang@ntu.edu.tw skchang2020@yahoo.com.tw http://ce11012.ce.ntu.edu.tw -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+skchang=ccms.ntu.edu.tw@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+skchang=ccms.ntu.edu.tw@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Cornie Huizenga Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 8:29 PM To: Sudhir Cc: Salil Bijur; Kanchan; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget Dear Sudhir and others, I think that it is important, desirable and possible to assess whether pedestrian $$ are spend in a empowering manner for pedestrians, whether they are neutral or whether they are (as Sujit might put it) hidden incentives for cars. I agree that i some cases, elevated walkways can make sense if they are done in a structured and systematic manner. E.g. Hong Kong, Bangkok or in parts of Makati. The reason these work is that they have moved the grade from ground level to one story up in the air. In the case of Hong Kong and Bangkok they are directly linked to public transport. In other cases, as in other parts of metro Manila they are done so that pedestrians are out of the way of the cars. Sometimes in a very inconvenient manner - the one at Edsa and Ortigas avenue is constructed for midgets only. When I passed there I had to crunch in order not too lose my head!! Cornie On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Sudhir wrote: > Dear Sujit, > > Coming from Bangalore, a city of flyovers which has just started massive > pedestrian crossings in the air .. i cannot agree more. But i would also > suggest that if you can have a context sensitive design in place.. it may > work in few places as shown in Makati in Manila. One cannot just retrofit > staircases everywhere. > > We are about to complete a project for ADB which looks extensively at the > issues pertaining to walkability. We are looking at around 10 cities. We > partnered with local universities and local NGO's from CAI partnership in > taking this challenge and doing small scale walkability surveys which > includes infrastructure assessment and pedestrian interviews ( we have > approx 2000 Asians suggesting their requirements as to what they need from > policymakers) . We hope to keep this alive with annual surveys and media > campaign and you would be seeing more local level pressure being exerted in > coming days. > > we would circulate more in coming weeks... > > lets hope for the best.. > > thanks > Sudhir > > On 7 March 2010 17:55, Sujit Patwardhan > wrote: > > > 7 March 2010 > > > > > > > > Dear Sudhir, > > We are doing an analysis of the PMC Budget - passed a few days back. The > > percentage of all Pedestrian and non motorised infrastructure is very > small > > though by including totally unnecessary and horrendous structures like > the > > Sky-Walk (another name for Pedestrian Over bridges where pedestrians are > > made to climb up many steps) under the head - "pedestrian facilities" > the > > budgets gives a misleading picture. These Sky-Walks just like most > Flyovers > > are nothing but opportunities for high kick backs and white elephant > > projects for the agencies and contractors apart from acting as one more > stab > > in the back for pedestrians whose miserable life (having to walk on most > > roads with poor condition of pavements) is already so painful that it is > not > > right to make him climb up many steps just to make the road free for auto > > vehicles. In fact the impetus for the sky-walks comes from two sources - > > first is corruption, and the second from the belief that roads are meant > > mainly for auto-mobiles and getting the pedestrians off the roads is a > good > > idea for improving traffic. > > > > We feel auto vehicles must stop as often and as long as necessary for the > > pedestrians to cross roads at grade. If on account of the high number of > > pedestrians the timing for cars to stop is too long - that is a proof > that > > the road is ripe for pedestrians only treatment. The automobile then > needs > > to be banned or severely restricted through TDM measures. > > > > As usual I have been liberal in answering your question but I thought one > > could get a wrong picture by taking too narrow a focus while looking at > the > > budget. > > We will share our findings about the Pune Municipal Corporation Budget > with > > you. Should take about three weeks I guess. > > > > With warm regards, > > -- > > Sujit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Sudhir wrote: > > > >> Dear all, > >> > >> We are searching for % of Budget allocated for pedestrians in our cities > >> and > >> unfortunately could not find many Asian cities. > >> > >> Do you know how much % of money authorities are planning to invest on > >> pedestrians in your city? > >> > >> thanks, > >> Sudhir Gota > >> Transport Specialist > >> CAI-Asia Center > >> Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, > >> ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City > >> Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 > >> Tel: +63-2-395-2843 > >> Fax: +63-2-395-2846 > >> Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org > >> Skype : sudhirgota > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >> > >> ================================================================ > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > >> (the 'Global South'). > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ?..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment > > to destroy the city? > > > > Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel > > Munich 1970 > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Sujit Patwardhan > > patwardhan.sujit@gmail.com > > sujitjp@gmail.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India > > Tel: +91 20 25537955 > > Cell: +91 98220 26627 > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Parisar: www.parisar.org > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > -- > Sudhir Gota > Transport Specialist > CAI-Asia Center > Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, > ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City > Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 > Tel: +63-2-395-2843 > Fax: +63-2-395-2846 > Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org > Skype : sudhirgota > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- Cornie Huizenga Joint Convener Partnership on Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport Mobile: +86 13901949332 cornie.huizenga@slocatpartnership.org www.slocat.net -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From operations at velomondial.net Thu Mar 11 16:39:15 2010 From: operations at velomondial.net (Pascal van den Noort) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:39:15 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: What to do with 900 bikes? In-Reply-To: <786FA965F7F7384F9BB242BBD23B6570669671@sgsinwpexm01.WorleyParsons.com> References: <7272a1b31003101743q3b4f17adne36e79ab8525ac0f@mail.gmail.com> <6B7DB057-FDC4-46F4-AF8D-0C41F423730A@velomondial.net> <786FA965F7F7384F9BB242BBD23B6570669671@sgsinwpexm01.WorleyParsons.com> Message-ID: And indeed I forgot one other thing we do: Sell them to Bike Shops as registered second hand bikes; this can partly fund the program Pascal J.W. van den Noort Executive Director Velo Mondial http://velomondial.blogspot.com operations@velomondial.net +31206270675 landline +31627055688 mobile phone On Mar 11, 2010, at 8:20 AM, Anderson, Regina (Singapore) wrote: > Well said. > > > Regina Anderson, AICP > Manager - Select > Infrastructure & Environment > WorleyParsons > www.worleyparsons.com > > Tel: +65 6501 7195 > Singapore Power Building, 12th Floor > 111 Somerset Road > Singapore 238164 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+regina.anderson=worleyparsons.com@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+regina.anderson=worleyparsons.com@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Pascal van den Noort > Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 3:06 PM > To: Carlosfelipe Pardo > Cc: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > Subject: [sustran] Re: What to do with 900 bikes? > > We have three purposes for left over bikes in Amsterdam: > 1. scrap the really bad ones > 2. sell for very cheap to students > 3. send the rest to developing countries > > Number 1 & 2 would work I guess. > > Plus: Make a law forbidding police to take away their transport if some rule is trespassed. Are cars taken away if drivers don't use their safety belts? > > > Pascal J.W. van den Noort > Executive Director Velo Mondial > > http://velomondial.blogspot.com > operations@velomondial.net > > +31206270675 landline > +31627055688 mobile phone > > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:43 AM, Carlosfelipe Pardo wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I have a practical problem: Bogot?'s traffic police have taken away >> bicycles from people not wearing helmets, and getting them back costs >> more than the actual cost of the bike. In consequence, there are a >> couple of yards with some 900 bikes sitting there for the last 10 >> years. This week a judge has told a local organization that they are >> willing to "donate them" for a noble cause, but that they must be >> taken from the yards before this Friday. They are getting a warehouse >> to store them at least from Friday and during some weeks, but now the >> questions are: >> - Will they be at all useful (imagine, bikes that have been in the >> open and under rain, sun, etc for up to 10 years...)? >> - If they're not useful as fully-functional bikes, what can they be >> used for? Some people have said they should do a sculpture, do various >> sculptures and do an auction with those sculptures, turn them into >> blocks of scrap metal... >> >> Now my question to all of you is: what would you do with 900 >> used-disfunctional bicycles? (of course, imagine you have very limited >> amounts of money to do something). >> >> Best regards, >> >> -- >> Carlosfelipe Pardo >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). >> > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > > *** WORLEYPARSONS GROUP NOTICE *** > "This email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not disclose or use the information contained in it. > If you have received this email in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the email and any attachments. > Any personal views or opinions expressed by the writer may not > necessarily reflect the views or opinions of any company in the WorleyParsons Group of Companies." > > > From voodikon at yahoo.com Thu Mar 11 17:58:46 2010 From: voodikon at yahoo.com (jane.) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:58:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget In-Reply-To: References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This does not answer the budget question, but here in Chengdu, China, over the course of the past three months dozens of these pedestrian overpasses have been installed at the city's major intersections. They appear to be hurriedly constructed and installed (reinforcements were being made weeks after they were put up), the surface is steep and slippery (will be extremely difficult even for young, fully mobile people to navigate during the rainy season that is coming up), and while some sides have ramps, other sides are stair-only. But I think in any case the ramps are too steep and narrow for wheelchair access; I think they are meant for bicycles. And when cyclists bring their bikes up, they, combined with the merchants who have taken to laying out their wares on the bridges, make for a massive human traffic jam. Also, for those who are transporting heavy cargo by bicycle, now the only choice is to go about a kilometer farther to a street-level crossing. Even under the best circumstances, I (reasonably fit, in my 20s, with no leg or foot injuries), find it a drag to climb the 15 or so meters. So I've been surprised to hear a number of non-driving friends praise these things; they perceive them as "safer" and also "more convenient" because they don't have to wait for the light to change. ________________________________ From: JasonChang To: Cornie Huizenga ; Sudhir Cc: Kanchan ; Salil Bijur ; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:51:33 PM Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget Dear Sudhir and Friends, I got something from the 2010 Budget Plan of Taipei City Government: Total Budget of Taipei City Government (2010): US$5,246.06 million Budget for Pedestrians (1) Side walk improvement: US$8.07 million (2) Pedestrian access facilities to waterfront: US$9.71 million (3) Pedestrian signal and related devices: US$0.1 million (4) Others (e.g., access facilities connecting public transport, maintenance, ...): 2.0 million (approximated) Jason -------------- ????? ??????? Dr. S. K. Jason CHANG (ZHANG Xue-kong) Professor, Department of Civil Engineering National Taiwan University Visiting Professor China Academy of Transportation Sciences, MOT China Visiting Professor Tongji University, Shanghai China #1 Roosevelt Road, Section 4 Taipei, 10617, Taiwan voice:+886-935178543 fax:+886-223639990 skchang@ntu.edu.tw skchang2020@yahoo.com.tw http://ce11012.ce.ntu.edu.tw -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+skchang=ccms.ntu.edu.tw@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+skchang=ccms.ntu.edu.tw@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Cornie Huizenga Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 8:29 PM To: Sudhir Cc: Salil Bijur; Kanchan; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget Dear Sudhir and others, I think that it is important, desirable and possible to assess whether pedestrian $$ are spend in a empowering manner for pedestrians, whether they are neutral or whether they are (as Sujit might put it) hidden incentives for cars. I agree that i some cases, elevated walkways can make sense if they are done in a structured and systematic manner. E.g. Hong Kong, Bangkok or in parts of Makati. The reason these work is that they have moved the grade from ground level to one story up in the air. In the case of Hong Kong and Bangkok they are directly linked to public transport. In other cases, as in other parts of metro Manila they are done so that pedestrians are out of the way of the cars. Sometimes in a very inconvenient manner - the one at Edsa and Ortigas avenue is constructed for midgets only. When I passed there I had to crunch in order not too lose my head!! Cornie On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Sudhir wrote: > Dear Sujit, > > Coming from Bangalore, a city of flyovers which has just started massive > pedestrian crossings in the air .. i cannot agree more. But i would also > suggest that if you can have a context sensitive design in place.. it may > work in few places as shown in Makati in Manila. One cannot just retrofit > staircases everywhere. > > We are about to complete a project for ADB which looks extensively at the > issues pertaining to walkability. We are looking at around 10 cities. We > partnered with local universities and local NGO's from CAI partnership in > taking this challenge and doing small scale walkability surveys which > includes infrastructure assessment and pedestrian interviews ( we have > approx 2000 Asians suggesting their requirements as to what they need from > policymakers) . We hope to keep this alive with annual surveys and media > campaign and you would be seeing more local level pressure being exerted in > coming days. > > we would circulate more in coming weeks... > > lets hope for the best.. > > thanks > Sudhir > > On 7 March 2010 17:55, Sujit Patwardhan > wrote: > > > 7 March 2010 > > > > > > > > Dear Sudhir, > > We are doing an analysis of the PMC Budget - passed a few days back. The > > percentage of all Pedestrian and non motorised infrastructure is very > small > > though by including totally unnecessary and horrendous structures like > the > > Sky-Walk (another name for Pedestrian Over bridges where pedestrians are > > made to climb up many steps) under the head - "pedestrian facilities" > the > > budgets gives a misleading picture. These Sky-Walks just like most > Flyovers > > are nothing but opportunities for high kick backs and white elephant > > projects for the agencies and contractors apart from acting as one more > stab > > in the back for pedestrians whose miserable life (having to walk on most > > roads with poor condition of pavements) is already so painful that it is > not > > right to make him climb up many steps just to make the road free for auto > > vehicles. In fact the impetus for the sky-walks comes from two sources - > > first is corruption, and the second from the belief that roads are meant > > mainly for auto-mobiles and getting the pedestrians off the roads is a > good > > idea for improving traffic. > > > > We feel auto vehicles must stop as often and as long as necessary for the > > pedestrians to cross roads at grade. If on account of the high number of > > pedestrians the timing for cars to stop is too long - that is a proof > that > > the road is ripe for pedestrians only treatment. The automobile then > needs > > to be banned or severely restricted through TDM measures. > > > > As usual I have been liberal in answering your question but I thought one > > could get a wrong picture by taking too narrow a focus while looking at > the > > budget. > > We will share our findings about the Pune Municipal Corporation Budget > with > > you. Should take about three weeks I guess. > > > > With warm regards, > > -- > > Sujit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Sudhir wrote: > > > >> Dear all, > >> > >> We are searching for % of Budget allocated for pedestrians in our cities > >> and > >> unfortunately could not find many Asian cities. > >> > >> Do you know how much % of money authorities are planning to invest on > >> pedestrians in your city? > >> > >> thanks, > >> Sudhir Gota > >> Transport Specialist > >> CAI-Asia Center > >> Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, > >> ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City > >> Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 > >> Tel: +63-2-395-2843 > >> Fax: +63-2-395-2846 > >> Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org > >> Skype : sudhirgota > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >> > >> ================================================================ > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > >> (the 'Global South'). > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ?..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment > > to destroy the city? > > > > Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel > > Munich 1970 > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Sujit Patwardhan > > patwardhan.sujit@gmail.com > > sujitjp@gmail.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India > > Tel: +91 20 25537955 > > Cell: +91 98220 26627 > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Parisar: www.parisar.org > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > -- > Sudhir Gota > Transport Specialist > CAI-Asia Center > Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, > ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City > Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 > Tel: +63-2-395-2843 > Fax: +63-2-395-2846 > Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org > Skype : sudhirgota > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- Cornie Huizenga Joint Convener Partnership on Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport Mobile: +86 13901949332 cornie.huizenga@slocatpartnership.org www.slocat.net -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org Thu Mar 11 22:28:30 2010 From: cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org (Cornie Huizenga) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:28:30 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget In-Reply-To: <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> Jane, This is a very eloquent argument against the elevated foot bridges. I never fully appreciated the implications for cyclists. Cornie On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:58 PM, jane. wrote: > This does not answer the budget question, but here in Chengdu, China, over > the course of the past three months dozens of these pedestrian overpasses > have been installed at the city's major intersections. They appear to be > hurriedly constructed and installed (reinforcements were being made weeks > after they were put up), the surface is steep and slippery (will be > extremely difficult even for young, fully mobile people to navigate during > the rainy season that is coming up), and while some sides have ramps, other > sides are stair-only. But I think in any case the ramps are too steep and > narrow for wheelchair access; I think they are meant for bicycles. And when > cyclists bring their bikes up, they, combined with the merchants who have > taken to laying out their wares on the bridges, make for a massive human > traffic jam. Also, for those who are transporting heavy cargo by bicycle, > now the only choice is to go about a kilometer farther to a street-level > crossing. Even under the best circumstances, I (reasonably fit, in my 20s, > with no leg or foot injuries), find it a drag to climb the 15 or so meters. > So I've been surprised to hear a number of non-driving friends praise these > things; they perceive them as "safer" and also "more convenient" because > they don't have to wait for the light to change. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* JasonChang > *To:* Cornie Huizenga ; Sudhir < > sudhir@cai-asia.org> > *Cc:* Kanchan ; Salil Bijur ; > Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > *Sent:* Wed, March 10, 2010 11:51:33 PM > > *Subject:* [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget > > Dear Sudhir and Friends, > > I got something from the 2010 Budget Plan of Taipei City Government: > > Total Budget of Taipei City Government (2010): US$5,246.06 million > > Budget for Pedestrians > (1) Side walk improvement: US$8.07 million > (2) Pedestrian access facilities to waterfront: US$9.71 million > (3) Pedestrian signal and related devices: US$0.1 million > (4) Others (e.g., access facilities connecting public transport, > maintenance, ...): 2.0 million (approximated) > > Jason > > -------------- > ????? ??????? > Dr. S. K. Jason CHANG (ZHANG Xue-kong) > Professor, Department of Civil Engineering > National Taiwan University > Visiting Professor > China Academy of Transportation Sciences, MOT China > Visiting Professor > Tongji University, Shanghai China > #1 Roosevelt Road, Section 4 > Taipei, 10617, Taiwan > voice:+886-935178543 fax:+886-223639990 > skchang@ntu.edu.tw skchang2020@yahoo.com.tw > http://ce11012.ce.ntu.edu.tw > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+skchang=ccms.ntu.edu.tw@list.jca.apc.org[mailto: > sustran-discuss-bounces+skchang = > ccms.ntu.edu.tw@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Cornie Huizenga > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 8:29 PM > To: Sudhir > Cc: Salil Bijur; Kanchan; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget > > Dear Sudhir and others, > > I think that it is important, desirable and possible to assess whether > pedestrian $$ are spend in a empowering manner for pedestrians, whether > they > are neutral or whether they are (as Sujit might put it) hidden incentives > for cars. > > I agree that i some cases, elevated walkways can make sense if they are > done > in a structured and systematic manner. E.g. Hong Kong, Bangkok or in parts > of Makati. The reason these work is that they have moved the grade from > ground level to one story up in the air. In the case of Hong Kong and > Bangkok they are directly linked to public transport. In other cases, as in > other parts of metro Manila they are done so that pedestrians are out of > the > way of the cars. Sometimes in a very inconvenient manner - the one at Edsa > and Ortigas avenue is constructed for midgets only. When I passed there I > had to crunch in order not too lose my head!! > > Cornie > > On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Sudhir wrote: > > > Dear Sujit, > > > > Coming from Bangalore, a city of flyovers which has just started massive > > pedestrian crossings in the air .. i cannot agree more. But i would also > > suggest that if you can have a context sensitive design in place.. it may > > work in few places as shown in Makati in Manila. One cannot just > retrofit > > staircases everywhere. > > > > We are about to complete a project for ADB which looks extensively at the > > issues pertaining to walkability. We are looking at around 10 cities. We > > partnered with local universities and local NGO's from CAI partnership in > > taking this challenge and doing small scale walkability surveys which > > includes infrastructure assessment and pedestrian interviews ( we have > > approx 2000 Asians suggesting their requirements as to what they need > from > > policymakers) . We hope to keep this alive with annual surveys and media > > campaign and you would be seeing more local level pressure being exerted > in > > coming days. > > > > we would circulate more in coming weeks... > > > > lets hope for the best.. > > > > thanks > > Sudhir > > > > On 7 March 2010 17:55, Sujit Patwardhan > > wrote: > > > > > 7 March 2010 > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sudhir, > > > We are doing an analysis of the PMC Budget - passed a few days back. > The > > > percentage of all Pedestrian and non motorised infrastructure is very > > small > > > though by including totally unnecessary and horrendous structures like > > the > > > Sky-Walk (another name for Pedestrian Over bridges where pedestrians > are > > > made to climb up many steps) under the head - "pedestrian facilities" > > the > > > budgets gives a misleading picture. These Sky-Walks just like most > > Flyovers > > > are nothing but opportunities for high kick backs and white elephant > > > projects for the agencies and contractors apart from acting as one more > > stab > > > in the back for pedestrians whose miserable life (having to walk on > most > > > roads with poor condition of pavements) is already so painful that it > is > > not > > > right to make him climb up many steps just to make the road free for > auto > > > vehicles. In fact the impetus for the sky-walks comes from two sources > - > > > first is corruption, and the second from the belief that roads are > meant > > > mainly for auto-mobiles and getting the pedestrians off the roads is a > > good > > > idea for improving traffic. > > > > > > We feel auto vehicles must stop as often and as long as necessary for > the > > > pedestrians to cross roads at grade. If on account of the high number > of > > > pedestrians the timing for cars to stop is too long - that is a proof > > that > > > the road is ripe for pedestrians only treatment. The automobile then > > needs > > > to be banned or severely restricted through TDM measures. > > > > > > As usual I have been liberal in answering your question but I thought > one > > > could get a wrong picture by taking too narrow a focus while looking at > > the > > > budget. > > > We will share our findings about the Pune Municipal Corporation Budget > > with > > > you. Should take about three weeks I guess. > > > > > > With warm regards, > > > -- > > > Sujit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Sudhir wrote: > > > > > >> Dear all, > > >> > > >> We are searching for % of Budget allocated for pedestrians in our > cities > > >> and > > >> unfortunately could not find many Asian cities. > > >> > > >> Do you know how much % of money authorities are planning to invest on > > >> pedestrians in your city? > > >> > > >> thanks, > > >> Sudhir Gota > > >> Transport Specialist > > >> CAI-Asia Center > > >> Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, > > >> ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City > > >> Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 > > >> Tel: +63-2-395-2843 > > >> Fax: +63-2-395-2846 > > >> Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org > > >> Skype : sudhirgota > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > >> > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > > real > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > >> > > >> ================================================================ > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ?..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment > > > to destroy the city? > > > > > > Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel > > > Munich 1970 > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > Sujit Patwardhan > > > patwardhan.sujit@gmail.com > > > sujitjp@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India > > > Tel: +91 20 25537955 > > > Cell: +91 98220 26627 > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Parisar: www.parisar.org > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Sudhir Gota > > Transport Specialist > > CAI-Asia Center > > Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, > > ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City > > Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 > > Tel: +63-2-395-2843 > > Fax: +63-2-395-2846 > > Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org > > Skype : sudhirgota > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > -- > Cornie Huizenga > Joint Convener > Partnership on Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport > Mobile: +86 13901949332 > cornie.huizenga@slocatpartnership.org > www.slocat.net > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > -- Cornie Huizenga Joint Convener Partnership on Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport Mobile: +86 13901949332 cornie.huizenga@slocatpartnership.org www.slocat.net From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Fri Mar 12 00:04:11 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:04:11 +0100 Subject: [sustran] [World Streets] Listening to children Message-ID: <01bd01cac12c$26572e90$73058bb0$@britton@ecoplan.org> Listening to children Journal of World Transport Policy and Practice Volume 15, Number 1. March 2010 This issue contains two articles that on first reading may appear totally unrelated. This is not the case. The Kinnersly article ? "Transport and climate change on a planet near you " - is a comprehensive reflection on the links between economic growth, poor quality democracy, lack of will to deal with sustainability and biodiversity and the perversity of reckless decision taking that supports a business as usual (BAU) model of the world. Tranter and O?Brien in "Positive psychology, walking and well-being: Can walking school buses survive a policy of school closure?", show convincingly and persuasively that a child-centred policy based on listening to children, thinking about the wider issues around children and the journey to school can bring about a very different outcome to the ones currently on offer. Kinnersly?s well-founded worries about BAU are neatly dealt with by the child-centred model (CCM) advanced by Tranter and O?Brien. Equally there will be other non-BAU models that raise alternative visions and perspectives and this journal want to hear from older people, those with mobility difficulties and those who live in the accessibility poor ?facility deserts? that we have created in many British cities. --> The full text of this article appears in today?s World Streets at http://WorldStreets.org/ -- > Discussions on World Streets Forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldStreets (Post to WorldStreets@yahoogroups.com ) Read World Streets Today at http://www.worldstreets.org/ New Mobility Partnerships ? http://www.newmobility.org 8/10 rue Joseph Bara, 75006 Paris, France, Europe +331 4326 1323 eric.britton(at)newmobility.org Skype: newmobility . Image removed by sender. __,_._,___ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20100311/1277fd50/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 332 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20100311/1277fd50/attachment-0001.jpe From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Fri Mar 12 00:04:11 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:04:11 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian Budget In-Reply-To: <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01cf01cac12c$2a2a0880$7e7e1980$@britton@ecoplan.org> Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., walkers, cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can arrive unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the concept is otherwise billed.) Do I have that right? Kind thanks for informing, Best/Eric Britton PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent truth-seeking piece for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage of course. Candidates? Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. World Streets . www.worldstreets.org 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton From hs.sudhira at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 00:50:24 2010 From: hs.sudhira at gmail.com (H. S. Sudhira) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:20:24 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: What to do with 900 bikes? In-Reply-To: <6B7DB057-FDC4-46F4-AF8D-0C41F423730A@velomondial.net> References: <7272a1b31003101743q3b4f17adne36e79ab8525ac0f@mail.gmail.com> <6B7DB057-FDC4-46F4-AF8D-0C41F423730A@velomondial.net> Message-ID: <63ffe5801003110750s59c8973duede9627251d48a4f@mail.gmail.com> At the Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore the students have re-used the cycles and put them on common use. They have called it "Common Usage Bicycles (CUBs)". Every year about 300 students join the Institute and about 200-250 graduate. Most students use bicycles to commute on campus. Hence, new students joining typically end up buying new cycles, while the graduating students leave their cycles on campus and move out. These left over cycles used to end up as scrap. And later it was the onus of Centre for Campus Management and Development to dispose them. However, this year the Students'' Council along with a few volunteers took the initiative to re-cycle all the dis-used bicycles. They came up with a proposal for re-cycling them by asking one to repair two bicycles and keep one for him/herself and the other for the common pool. By this method, they have been able to get almost 140 bicycles re-cycled. About 65 of them have been put on common usage at various locations. It has been a big success and the initial usage has been good. Yet, there are challenges that the Students' Council has been facing with respect to repair and maintenance. A good model for ensuring the maintenance is yet to be put in place. Suggestions can be mailed to: scouncil@tejas.serc.iisc.ernet.in Sudhira. On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Pascal van den Noort < operations@velomondial.net> wrote: > We have three purposes for left over bikes in Amsterdam: > 1. scrap the really bad ones > 2. sell for very cheap to students > 3. send the rest to developing countries > > Number 1 & 2 would work I guess. > > Plus: Make a law forbidding police to take away their transport if some > rule is trespassed. Are cars taken away if drivers don't use their safety > belts? > > > Pascal J.W. van den Noort > Executive Director Velo Mondial > > http://velomondial.blogspot.com > operations@velomondial.net > > +31206270675 landline > +31627055688 mobile phone > > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:43 AM, Carlosfelipe Pardo wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I have a practical problem: Bogot?'s traffic police have taken away > > bicycles from people not wearing helmets, and getting them back costs > > more than the actual cost of the bike. In consequence, there are a > > couple of yards with some 900 bikes sitting there for the last 10 > > years. This week a judge has told a local organization that they are > > willing to "donate them" for a noble cause, but that they must be > > taken from the yards before this Friday. They are getting a warehouse > > to store them at least from Friday and during some weeks, but now the > > questions are: > > - Will they be at all useful (imagine, bikes that have been in the > > open and under rain, sun, etc for up to 10 years...)? > > - If they're not useful as fully-functional bikes, what can they be > > used for? Some people have said they should do a sculpture, do various > > sculptures and do an auction with those sculptures, turn them into > > blocks of scrap metal... > > > > Now my question to all of you is: what would you do with 900 > > used-disfunctional bicycles? (of course, imagine you have very limited > > amounts of money to do something). > > > > Best regards, > > > > -- > > Carlosfelipe Pardo > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CUBs-IISc.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 96724 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20100311/bc6bc475/CUBs-IISc.jpg From intlbike at ibike.org Fri Mar 12 01:33:46 2010 From: intlbike at ibike.org (intlbike at ibike.org) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 11:33:46 -0500 Subject: [sustran] =?utf-8?Q?Re=3A_What_to_do_with_900_bikes=3F?= In-Reply-To: <7272a1b31003101743q3b4f17adne36e79ab8525ac0f@mail.gmail.com> References: <7272a1b31003101743q3b4f17adne36e79ab8525ac0f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0472e01682e36eeedfadba61e4426795@imap.plato.hostingoperations.com> There are always organizations requesting bicycles. A partial list is posted at http://www.ibike.org/environment/recycling/request-bikes.htm. There has also been some discussion on the practicality and benefits of starting bicycle programs in Haiti. For information on organizations with experience with recycling bicycles visit http://www.ibike.org/environment/recycling/recycling-orgs.htm -David On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:43:25 -0500, Carlosfelipe Pardo wrote: > Hi, > > I have a practical problem: Bogot?'s traffic police have taken away > bicycles from people not wearing helmets, and getting them back costs > more than the actual cost of the bike. In consequence, there are a > couple of yards with some 900 bikes sitting there for the last 10 > years. This week a judge has told a local organization that they are > willing to "donate them" for a noble cause, but that they must be > taken from the yards before this Friday. They are getting a warehouse > to store them at least from Friday and during some weeks, but now the > questions are: > - Will they be at all useful (imagine, bikes that have been in the > open and under rain, sun, etc for up to 10 years...)? > - If they're not useful as fully-functional bikes, what can they be > used for? Some people have said they should do a sculpture, do various > sculptures and do an auction with those sculptures, turn them into > blocks of scrap metal... > > Now my question to all of you is: what would you do with 900 > used-disfunctional bicycles? (of course, imagine you have very limited > amounts of money to do something). > > Best regards, > > -- > Carlosfelipe Pardo > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). From sudhir at cai-asia.org Fri Mar 12 09:48:30 2010 From: sudhir at cai-asia.org (Sudhir) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:48:30 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Walkability in Asia Message-ID: Walkability Surveys from Kathmandu shows.... About 94 percent of all the surveyed road stretches has no existing facilities for persons with disabilities. http://www.nepalnews.com/main/index.php/component/content/article/13-top-column/4656-terrible-pedestrian-infrastructure-in-kathmandu.html We would be activating live discussions with local policy makers from Kathmandu on walkability and other issues in our COP's in next few months... see http://www.cleanairinitiative.org/portal/node/2985 -- Sudhir Gota Transport Specialist CAI-Asia Center Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 Tel: +63-2-395-2843 Fax: +63-2-395-2846 Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org Skype : sudhirgota From shovan1209 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 12 14:59:54 2010 From: shovan1209 at yahoo.com (Syed Saiful Alam via Yahoo!) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:59:54 -0800 Subject: [sustran] Syed Saiful Alam invites you to connect Message-ID: Join Syed Saiful Alam on Yahoo! Messenger. (your message goes here) Stay in the loop with all your friends. Get started : http://invite.msg.yahoo.com/invite?op=accept&intl=us&sig=p94cjA1v.bZDcrlDpRloPDK1XWcqjMMLkHf5agTg7uRvH87clnw_d4IR1MA- * Stay connected at home, at work, or on the go * Have fun with games, emoticons, and more * Join a community of over 100 million people from around the world Join Your Friends : http://invite.msg.yahoo.com/invite?op=accept&intl=us&sig=p94cjA1v.bZDcrlDpRloPDK1XWcqjMMLkHf5agTg7uRvH87clnw_d4IR1MA- -- this email was sent to you by an automated system - please do not reply directly From voodikon at yahoo.com Fri Mar 12 15:25:40 2010 From: voodikon at yahoo.com (jane.) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:25:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget In-Reply-To: <01cf01cac12c$2a2a0880$7e7e1980$@britton@ecoplan.org> References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <01cf01cac12c$2a2a0880$7e7e1980$@britton@ecoplan.org> Message-ID: <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they simply just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply notices. But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines of "improving traffic." ________________________________ From: Eric Britton To: Cornie Huizenga ; jane. Cc: Salil Bijur ; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport ; Kanchan ; JasonChang Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM Subject: Pedestrian Budget Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., walkers, cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can arrive unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the concept is otherwise billed.) Do I have that right? Kind thanks for informing, Best/Eric Britton PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent truth-seeking piece for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage of course. Candidates? Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. World Streets . www.worldstreets.org 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton From paulbarter at nus.edu.sg Fri Mar 12 18:10:25 2010 From: paulbarter at nus.edu.sg (Paul Barter) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:10:25 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Guangzhou BRT opened recently Message-ID: <6F850E42E4589F45AE2799F34B645C3604728991@MBX06.stf.nus.edu.sg> Some news from ITDP via http://www.itdp.org/index.php/news_events/news_detail/guangzhou_opens_highest_capacity_brt/ Guangzhou Opens Asia's Highest Capacity BRT System 05 Mar 2010 by Claudia Gunter, ITDP The city of Guangzhou, China, officially opened the 22.5-kilometer Guangzhou bus rapid transit system, known as GBRT, on February 21, after a ten-day test run over the Chinese New Year holiday period. The GBRT is a system of firsts: it is the first BRT to directly connect to a metro system, the first BRT system in China to include bike parking in its station design, it has the world's highest number of passenger boardings at BRT stations, highest BRT bus frequency, and longest BRT stations. Station operation is impressive, and its ridership levels are second only to Bogot?'s Transmilenio. [cid:image001.jpg@01CAC206.E8243600] The Guangzhou BRT is the highest-capacity system in Asia. Photo: Walter Hook Passenger interest in the system is high-all day at Tangxia and other stations people line the pedestrian bridges to view the system in operation. Passenger ridership now exceeds 25,000 passengers per hour in a single direction, at the highest demand point in the rush hour; more than triple any other BRT system in Asia. Daily passenger ridership is currently more than 800,000 boardings per day, which is more than any of Guangzhou's 5 metro lines, and is expected to exceed 1 million passenger trips per day by the end of 2010. More than 70,000 passenger boardings take place each day at a single station (Gangding). ... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 208181 bytes Desc: image001.jpg Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20100312/e1f6d55f/image001.jpg From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Sun Mar 14 19:14:06 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:14:06 +0100 Subject: [sustran] World Streets Open Edition - An invitation Message-ID: <00ce01cac35f$1e3aa630$5aaff290$@britton@ecoplan.org> cid:image013.png@01CAC2FF.54562060 Dear Sustran friends, This is to announce a new World Streets project - World Streets Open Edition at Www.open.WorldStreets.org -- which we have decided to develop in order to provide easy access for those colleagues living outside of cities and other parts of the world where high-speed Internet connections are not generally available. I wonder if you might have a look and give me your feedback on three basic issues which we will need to resolve if we are going to continue to develop and make available this free sustainability tool. 1. Are you able to access it relatively easy with a dial-up or other lower speed connection? And if you run into any problems in some part of the site, kindly let us know so we can try to either fix it or find a satisfactory workaround. 2. Do you find the content and the overall approach something which is worthy and possibly of use to you? Fortunately at the main World Streets blog (which does really require high-speed access) we know the answer since the site is being heavily used every day and many of our colleagues in different places around the world are participating with articles, comments, and suggestions for us. But with the new project like this we depend on individual feedback. 3. And finally, if you have working familiarity with any of the other dozen languages that are handled on the site, or if English is not your most comfortable working language, would you mind having a look at the machine translation engine which will find on the upper left of every page of the site. What is your reaction as far as the quality of the translation is concerned? yes, it is not perfect and at times a bit strange, but does not get the basic message across? That is the fundamental issue that we need to sort out. (For further background on this, may I point you to the article that you will find on the Open Edition menu for 10 March, plus the background note at http://tinyurl.com/ws-languages.) If your time and interest permit, it would be much appreciated if you could get back to us on this. We want to do a good job but it is also important that it is going to be useful. Many thanks, Eric Britton Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. World Streets . www.worldstreets.org Open Edition: www.open.worldstreets.org 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 53499 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20100314/7a6f6f34/attachment.png From sudhir at cai-asia.org Sun Mar 14 21:11:47 2010 From: sudhir at cai-asia.org (Sudhir) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 20:11:47 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian Budget In-Reply-To: <001301cac369$03f1a170$0bd4e450$@edu.tw> References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <001301cac369$03f1a170$0bd4e450$@edu.tw> Message-ID: Dear Jason, Its very interesting as many cities still have some kind of traditional thumb rules for suggesting elevated guidelines.. to give you an example consider this Indian practice "*Provision of controlled crossings at mid blocks when **peak hour volumes of pedestrians (P) and vehicles (V) are such that PV**2** **> 1 million (Undivided carriageway), PV**2**> 2 million (divided carriageway) , Stream speed of greater than 65 kmph, **Waiting time for pedestrians/vehicles become long"* How does it differ with Taipei guideline for "Cross Walk of Pedestrian" ? Can you please send us the guideline? It would be great if people can share experiences from other cities .... regards Sudhir On 14 March 2010 19:24, JasonChang wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Since Jane from Chengdu China mentioned several important issues related to > pedestrian facilities, I would like to provide more information regarding > policy changes on Pedestrian Facilities in Taipei as follows: > 1. Before 1990, there was a guideline for "Cross Walk of Pedestrian", in > which several criteria had been provided for construction of elevated cross > walk in intersections and the entrance of schools. Based on this guideline, > more than 60 elevated cross walk (over pass bridge or underground pass) had > been constructed. > 2. After developing dedicated bus lanes and network of 50km on 1993~1995, a > people-centered policy has been accepted so that our pedestrian has the > priority of walking on ground when crossing the streets. Although this new > policy has significant impact on general traffic flows, it has been accepted > by the general public. Therefore, there is no any elevated facilities for > pedestrian since 1995. > > I have enclosed few examples of layout of dedicated bus lane and traffic > engineering in the intersections in Taipei. Your comments and suggestions > will be highly appreciated. > > Jason > > -------------- > ????? ??????? > Dr. S. K. Jason CHANG (ZHANG Xue-kong) > Professor, Department of Civil Engineering > National Taiwan University > Visiting Professor > China Academy of Transportation Sciences, MOT China > Visiting Professor > Tongji University, Shanghai China > #1 Roosevelt Road, Section 4 > Taipei, 10617, Taiwan > voice:+886-935178543 fax:+886-223639990 > skchang@ntu.edu.tw skchang2020@yahoo.com.tw > http://ce11012.ce.ntu.edu.tw > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+skchang=ccms.ntu.edu.tw@list.jca.apc.org[mailto: > sustran-discuss-bounces+skchang = > ccms.ntu.edu.tw@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Sudhir > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:31 AM > To: JasonChang > Cc: Kanchan; Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget > > Dear Jason, Rutul, Saiful and Todd, > > Thanks a lot for the insights from your side and now we have many examples > to show as to whats happening in Asia... > > It looks that currently Taipei has a fairly detailed list which does not > contain only footpath or overhead crossings.... > > I would be posting few things which i have found in next few days..... > > thanks > Sudhir > > -- Sudhir Gota Transport Specialist CAI-Asia Center Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 Tel: +63-2-395-2843 Fax: +63-2-395-2846 Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org Skype : sudhirgota From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Sun Mar 14 21:43:59 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 13:43:59 +0100 Subject: [sustran] [World Streets] Musing: Thoughts on Communicating Science Message-ID: <015f01cac374$0737f1d0$15a7d570$@britton@ecoplan.org> Musing: Thoughts on Communicating Science Losing the battle for hearts and minds Food for thought as we try to turn our great ideas into reality (at which most of us are not so hot. Present company included I am afraid.) Here is a think piece musing on our communications skills by our long-time colleague Keith Sutter from Australia. He takes us into "minds", "hearts", "gut", and then, since it is the weekend and we can deal with it, "reproductive organs". His source argues that that these are the four ?layers? of communication, rather like a pyramid, with the layers getting broader as they move towards the base. Oops. --> The full text of this article appears in today?s World Streets at http://WorldStreets.org/ --> No broadband? No problem. Find it on the Open Edition at www.open.WorldStreets.org -- > Discussions on World Streets Forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldStreets (Post to WorldStreets@yahoogroups.com ) Read World Streets Today at http://www.worldstreets.org/ & www.open.worldstreets.org New Mobility Partnerships ? http://www.newmobility.org 8/10 rue Joseph Bara, 75006 Paris, France, Europe +331 4326 1323 eric.britton(at)newmobility.org Skype: newmobility From skchang at ntu.edu.tw Sun Mar 14 20:24:46 2010 From: skchang at ntu.edu.tw (JasonChang) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:24:46 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget In-Reply-To: References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001301cac369$03f1a170$0bd4e450$@edu.tw> Dear Friends, Since Jane from Chengdu China mentioned several important issues related to pedestrian facilities, I would like to provide more information regarding policy changes on Pedestrian Facilities in Taipei as follows: 1. Before 1990, there was a guideline for "Cross Walk of Pedestrian", in which several criteria had been provided for construction of elevated cross walk in intersections and the entrance of schools. Based on this guideline, more than 60 elevated cross walk (over pass bridge or underground pass) had been constructed. 2. After developing dedicated bus lanes and network of 50km on 1993~1995, a people-centered policy has been accepted so that our pedestrian has the priority of walking on ground when crossing the streets. Although this new policy has significant impact on general traffic flows, it has been accepted by the general public. Therefore, there is no any elevated facilities for pedestrian since 1995. I have enclosed few examples of layout of dedicated bus lane and traffic engineering in the intersections in Taipei. Your comments and suggestions will be highly appreciated. Jason -------------- ????? ??????? Dr. S. K. Jason CHANG (ZHANG Xue-kong) Professor, Department of Civil Engineering National Taiwan University Visiting Professor China Academy of Transportation Sciences, MOT China Visiting Professor Tongji University, Shanghai China #1 Roosevelt Road, Section 4 Taipei, 10617, Taiwan voice:+886-935178543 fax:+886-223639990 skchang@ntu.edu.tw skchang2020@yahoo.com.tw http://ce11012.ce.ntu.edu.tw -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+skchang=ccms.ntu.edu.tw@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+skchang=ccms.ntu.edu.tw@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Sudhir Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:31 AM To: JasonChang Cc: Kanchan; Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget Dear Jason, Rutul, Saiful and Todd, Thanks a lot for the insights from your side and now we have many examples to show as to whats happening in Asia... It looks that currently Taipei has a fairly detailed list which does not contain only footpath or overhead crossings.... I would be posting few things which i have found in next few days..... thanks Sudhir On 10 March 2010 23:51, JasonChang wrote: > Dear Sudhir and Friends, > > I got something from the 2010 Budget Plan of Taipei City Government: > > Total Budget of Taipei City Government (2010): US$5,246.06 million > > Budget for Pedestrians > (1) Side walk improvement: US$8.07 million > (2) Pedestrian access facilities to waterfront: US$9.71 million > (3) Pedestrian signal and related devices: US$0.1 million > (4) Others (e.g., access facilities connecting public transport, > maintenance, ...): 2.0 million (approximated) > > Jason > > -------------- > ????? ??????? > Dr. S. K. Jason CHANG (ZHANG Xue-kong) > Professor, Department of Civil Engineering > National Taiwan University > Visiting Professor > China Academy of Transportation Sciences, MOT China > Visiting Professor > Tongji University, Shanghai China > #1 Roosevelt Road, Section 4 > Taipei, 10617, Taiwan > voice:+886-935178543 fax:+886-223639990 > skchang@ntu.edu.tw skchang2020@yahoo.com.tw > http://ce11012.ce.ntu.edu.tw > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+skchang=ccms.ntu.edu.tw@list.jca.apc.org[mailto: > sustran-discuss-bounces+skchang = > ccms.ntu.edu.tw@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Cornie Huizenga > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 8:29 PM > To: Sudhir > Cc: Salil Bijur; Kanchan; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget > > Dear Sudhir and others, > > I think that it is important, desirable and possible to assess whether > pedestrian $$ are spend in a empowering manner for pedestrians, whether > they > are neutral or whether they are (as Sujit might put it) hidden incentives > for cars. > > I agree that i some cases, elevated walkways can make sense if they are > done > in a structured and systematic manner. E.g. Hong Kong, Bangkok or in parts > of Makati. The reason these work is that they have moved the grade from > ground level to one story up in the air. In the case of Hong Kong and > Bangkok they are directly linked to public transport. In other cases, as in > other parts of metro Manila they are done so that pedestrians are out of > the > way of the cars. Sometimes in a very inconvenient manner - the one at Edsa > and Ortigas avenue is constructed for midgets only. When I passed there I > had to crunch in order not too lose my head!! > > Cornie > > On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Sudhir wrote: > > > Dear Sujit, > > > > Coming from Bangalore, a city of flyovers which has just started massive > > pedestrian crossings in the air .. i cannot agree more. But i would also > > suggest that if you can have a context sensitive design in place.. it may > > work in few places as shown in Makati in Manila. One cannot just > retrofit > > staircases everywhere. > > > > We are about to complete a project for ADB which looks extensively at the > > issues pertaining to walkability. We are looking at around 10 cities. We > > partnered with local universities and local NGO's from CAI partnership in > > taking this challenge and doing small scale walkability surveys which > > includes infrastructure assessment and pedestrian interviews ( we have > > approx 2000 Asians suggesting their requirements as to what they need > from > > policymakers) . We hope to keep this alive with annual surveys and media > > campaign and you would be seeing more local level pressure being exerted > in > > coming days. > > > > we would circulate more in coming weeks... > > > > lets hope for the best.. > > > > thanks > > Sudhir > > > > On 7 March 2010 17:55, Sujit Patwardhan > > wrote: > > > > > 7 March 2010 > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sudhir, > > > We are doing an analysis of the PMC Budget - passed a few days back. > The > > > percentage of all Pedestrian and non motorised infrastructure is very > > small > > > though by including totally unnecessary and horrendous structures like > > the > > > Sky-Walk (another name for Pedestrian Over bridges where pedestrians > are > > > made to climb up many steps) under the head - "pedestrian facilities" > > the > > > budgets gives a misleading picture. These Sky-Walks just like most > > Flyovers > > > are nothing but opportunities for high kick backs and white elephant > > > projects for the agencies and contractors apart from acting as one more > > stab > > > in the back for pedestrians whose miserable life (having to walk on > most > > > roads with poor condition of pavements) is already so painful that it > is > > not > > > right to make him climb up many steps just to make the road free for > auto > > > vehicles. In fact the impetus for the sky-walks comes from two sources > - > > > first is corruption, and the second from the belief that roads are > meant > > > mainly for auto-mobiles and getting the pedestrians off the roads is a > > good > > > idea for improving traffic. > > > > > > We feel auto vehicles must stop as often and as long as necessary for > the > > > pedestrians to cross roads at grade. If on account of the high number > of > > > pedestrians the timing for cars to stop is too long - that is a proof > > that > > > the road is ripe for pedestrians only treatment. The automobile then > > needs > > > to be banned or severely restricted through TDM measures. > > > > > > As usual I have been liberal in answering your question but I thought > one > > > could get a wrong picture by taking too narrow a focus while looking at > > the > > > budget. > > > We will share our findings about the Pune Municipal Corporation Budget > > with > > > you. Should take about three weeks I guess. > > > > > > With warm regards, > > > -- > > > Sujit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Sudhir wrote: > > > > > >> Dear all, > > >> > > >> We are searching for % of Budget allocated for pedestrians in our > cities > > >> and > > >> unfortunately could not find many Asian cities. > > >> > > >> Do you know how much % of money authorities are planning to invest on > > >> pedestrians in your city? > > >> > > >> thanks, > > >> Sudhir Gota > > >> Transport Specialist > > >> CAI-Asia Center > > >> Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, > > >> ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City > > >> Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 > > >> Tel: +63-2-395-2843 > > >> Fax: +63-2-395-2846 > > >> Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org > > >> Skype : sudhirgota > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > >> > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > > real > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > >> > > >> ================================================================ > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ?..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment > > > to destroy the city? > > > > > > Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel > > > Munich 1970 > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > Sujit Patwardhan > > > patwardhan.sujit@gmail.com > > > sujitjp@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India > > > Tel: +91 20 25537955 > > > Cell: +91 98220 26627 > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Parisar: www.parisar.org > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Sudhir Gota > > Transport Specialist > > CAI-Asia Center > > Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, > > ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City > > Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 > > Tel: +63-2-395-2843 > > Fax: +63-2-395-2846 > > Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org > > Skype : sudhirgota > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > -- > Cornie Huizenga > Joint Convener > Partnership on Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport > Mobile: +86 13901949332 > cornie.huizenga@slocatpartnership.org > www.slocat.net > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > -- Sudhir Gota Transport Specialist CAI-Asia Center Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 Tel: +63-2-395-2843 Fax: +63-2-395-2846 Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org Skype : sudhirgota -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Taipei Dedicated Bus Lane.ppt Type: application/vnd.ms-powerpoint Size: 992256 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20100314/57d3c42f/TaipeiDedicatedBusLane.ppt From carlosfpardo at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 10:42:20 2010 From: carlosfpardo at gmail.com (Carlosfelipe Pardo) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 20:42:20 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <01cf01cac12c$2a2a0880$7e7e1980$@britton@ecoplan.org> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> Hi, The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries in Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and even pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" in a crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! I've been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a specific overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they don't understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they are also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to many (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car must just whizz by). This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... Best regards, Carlos. On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: > Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they simply just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply notices. But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines of "improving traffic." > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Eric Britton > To: Cornie Huizenga; jane. > Cc: Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport; Kanchan; JasonChang > Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM > Subject: Pedestrian Budget > > Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. > > The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., walkers, > cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can arrive > unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the concept > is otherwise billed.) > > Do I have that right? > > Kind thanks for informing, > > Best/Eric Britton > > PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent truth-seeking piece > for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage of > course. Candidates? > > > > Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France > +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility > New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org > 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > From brader at itpworld.net Mon Mar 15 18:47:41 2010 From: brader at itpworld.net (Colin Brader) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:47:41 -0000 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <01cf01cac12c$2a2a0880$7e7e1980$@britton@ecoplan.org><26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Carlos I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken user needs analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade crossings. I believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the at-grade crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian volume, appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is such that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take full consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being placed. Regards Colin Brader Director Integrated Transport Planning Ltd -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42 To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses Hi, The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries in Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and even pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" in a crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! I've been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a specific overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they don't understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they are also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to many (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car must just whizz by). This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... Best regards, Carlos. On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: > Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they simply just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply notices. But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines of "improving traffic." > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Eric Britton > To: Cornie Huizenga; jane. > Cc: Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport; Kanchan; JasonChang > Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM > Subject: Pedestrian Budget > > Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. > > The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., walkers, > cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can arrive > unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the concept > is otherwise billed.) > > Do I have that right? > > Kind thanks for informing, > > Best/Eric Britton > > PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent truth-seeking piece > for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage of > course. Candidates? > > > > Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France > +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility > New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org > 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From whook at itdp.org Mon Mar 15 23:44:02 2010 From: whook at itdp.org (Walter Hook) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:44:02 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and under many contexts. I believe that some basic general principals can be followed but also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted. People can normally cross two lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not three or more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be respected. even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, but as a rule of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and three lanes of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better. w. On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader wrote: > Dear Carlos > > I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken user needs > analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the > Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade crossings. I > believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the at-grade > crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian volume, > appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is such > that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not > require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take full > consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being > placed. > > > Regards > Colin Brader > Director > Integrated Transport Planning Ltd > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader = > itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo > Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42 > To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses > > Hi, > > The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of > level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries in > Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a > fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and even > pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" in a > crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! I've > been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a specific > overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they don't > understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they are > also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to many > (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car must just > > whizz by). > > This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... > > Best regards, > > Carlos. > > > On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: > > Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they simply > just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just > before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply notices. > But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines of > "improving traffic." > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Eric Britton > > To: Cornie Huizenga; > jane. > > Cc: Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable > Transport; > Kanchan; JasonChang > > Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM > > Subject: Pedestrian Budget > > > > Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. > > > > The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., > walkers, > > cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can > arrive > > unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the > concept > > is otherwise billed.) > > > > Do I have that right? > > > > Kind thanks for informing, > > > > Best/Eric Britton > > > > PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent truth-seeking > piece > > for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage of > > course. Candidates? > > > > > > > > Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > > > World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > > 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France > > +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility > > New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org > > 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > > +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- Walter Hook Executive Director Institute for Transportation and Development Policy 127 W 26 St, Ste 1002 New York, NY 10001 1-212-629-8001 www.itdp.org Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide. From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Tue Mar 16 00:31:22 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:31:22 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses redux In-Reply-To: <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <020901cac454$a28ce4c0$e7a6ae40$@britton@ecoplan.org> This conversation is coming along very nicely, and I thank you all for your insightful observations. I very much look forward to publishing one or more pieces on it in World Streets, as I mentioned earlier, and anybody who wants to get involved in providing an overview or overviews is invited to get in touch. We are not talking here about a minor technical detail. This is a central issue of good governance and social responsibility which contains in microcosm so many of the big issues that we need to deal with in a unified, consistent, and strategic manner. Ad hoc problem-solving will only make more problems. We have as many proofs of this as anyone can reasonably ask for. So what is the bottom line when it comes to pedestrian overpasses? There are three: Bottom line 1: People driving motor vehicles will drive just about as fast as they can. That is not because they are inherently evil or even selfish, but rather that they are just human and it requires quite a state of advanced civic behavior to expect otherwise. The number of places in the world that fit this latter pattern can be counted on a hand or two. Bottom line 2: So if we want to make it safe for pedestrians, including for example at a crosswalk, the only way to do this is through incontrovertible modification of the street architecture. Bingo! It should not be the responsibility of the pedestrian to make it her or his way across the street in the battlefield circumstances which we are seeing all too often in many of our cities today. We need to shift the onus to the cars and of course their drivers, bearing in mind that they are human beings and that human beings need pretty special treatment. So rather than spend our money and other resources in figuring out how to remove pedestrians and cyclists from traffic through these awful overpasses that turn them into earmarked last-class citizens, we need to redesign the traffic system so that they can safely make their way across the street. Every time! This is a splendid engineering problem and is one that we are not without good examples of. So let us get to work on it. I would imagine that I do not have an overwhelming consensus on this, but here is the third bottom line that you have perhaps forgotten: I am right. With all good wishes, Eric Eric Britton Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. World Streets . www.worldstreets.org Open Edition: www.open.worldstreets.org 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+eric.britton=ecoplan.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+eric.britton=ecoplan.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Walter Hook Sent: Monday, 15 March, 2010 15:44 To: Colin Brader Cc: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and under many contexts. I believe that some basic general principals can be followed but also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted. People can normally cross two lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not three or more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be respected. even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, but as a rule of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and three lanes of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better. Walter Hook Executive Director Institute for Transportation and Development Policy 127 W 26 St, Ste 1002 New York, NY 10001 1-212-629-8001 www.itdp.org On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader wrote: Dear Carlos I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken user needs analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade crossings. I believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the at-grade crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian volume, appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is such that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take full consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being placed. Regards Colin Brader Director Integrated Transport Planning Ltd -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42 To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses Hi, The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries in Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and even pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" in a crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! I've been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a specific overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they don't understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they are also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to many (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car must just whizz by). This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... Best regards, Carlos. On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they simply just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply notices. But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines of "improving traffic." From: Eric Britton References: <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> <-4518001769555807445@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: There seems to be an implicit assumption here that cars and pedestrians (and other non-motorized vehicles) will be *sharing the same infrastructure*. One of the things which has most impressed me in certain Northern cities is that they have well-connected *networks* which are dedicated to other forms of transportation. Pedestrians and bicycles can get around large parts of the city without coming into frequent contact (and conflict) with motorized vehicles. Connectivity and proper access to destinations is the key. If people cannot comfortably reach their destinations by foot, then it is only natural that they will resort to the car. There is a battle going on for the 'right of access'. This is not the first time that such a 'war' has been played out, and we are all too familiar with the results. Automobiles and the associated 'development' industries have a huge amount of financial resources behind them. Who is championing 'sustainable' development? Unless we can find some way to leverage this form of development to produce positive economic results, we are destined to find our planet as just more 'road-kill' on the highway to prosperity.... Zvi On 15 March 2010 11:31, Eric Britton wrote: > This conversation is coming along very nicely, and I thank you all for your > insightful observations. I very much look forward to publishing one or > more > pieces on it in World Streets, as I mentioned earlier, and anybody who > wants > to get involved in providing an overview or overviews is invited to get in > touch. > > We are not talking here about a minor technical detail. This is a central > issue of good governance and social responsibility which contains in > microcosm so many of the big issues that we need to deal with in a unified, > consistent, and strategic manner. Ad hoc problem-solving will only make > more problems. We have as many proofs of this as anyone can reasonably ask > for. > > So what is the bottom line when it comes to pedestrian overpasses? There > are three: > > Bottom line 1: People driving motor vehicles will drive just about as fast > as they can. That is not because they are inherently evil or even selfish, > but rather that they are just human and it requires quite a state of > advanced civic behavior to expect otherwise. The number of places in the > world that fit this latter pattern can be counted on a hand or two. > > Bottom line 2: So if we want to make it safe for pedestrians, including for > example at a crosswalk, the only way to do this is through incontrovertible > modification of the street architecture. Bingo! It should not be the > responsibility of the pedestrian to make it her or his way across the > street > in the battlefield circumstances which we are seeing all too often in many > of our cities today. We need to shift the onus to the cars and of course > their drivers, bearing in mind that they are human beings and that human > beings need pretty special treatment. > > So rather than spend our money and other resources in figuring out how to > remove pedestrians and cyclists from traffic through these awful overpasses > that turn them into earmarked last-class citizens, we need to redesign the > traffic system so that they can safely make their way across the street. > Every time! > > This is a splendid engineering problem and is one that we are not without > good examples of. So let us get to work on it. > > I would imagine that I do not have an overwhelming consensus on this, but > here is the third bottom line that you have perhaps forgotten: I am right. > > With all good wishes, > > Eric > > Eric Britton > > Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > World Streets . www.worldstreets.org Open Edition: > www.open.worldstreets.org > 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France > +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility > New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org > 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+eric.britton=ecoplan.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+eric.britton > =ecoplan.org@list.jca.apc.org] > On Behalf Of Walter Hook > Sent: Monday, 15 March, 2010 15:44 > To: Colin Brader > Cc: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses > > we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and under many > contexts. I believe that some basic general principals can be followed but > also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted. People can normally cross two > lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not three or > more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be respected. > even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, but as a rule > of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and three lanes > of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better. > > Walter Hook > Executive Director > Institute for Transportation and Development Policy > 127 W 26 St, Ste 1002 > New York, NY 10001 > 1-212-629-8001 > www.itdp.org > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader wrote: > > Dear Carlos > > I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken user needs > analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the > Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade crossings. I > believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the at-grade > crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian volume, > appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is such > that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not > require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take full > consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being > placed. > > > Regards > Colin Brader > Director > Integrated Transport Planning Ltd > > > -----Original Message----- > Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo > Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42 > To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses > > Hi, > The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of > level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries in > Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a > fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and even > pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" in a > crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! I've > been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a specific > overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they don't > understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they are > also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to many > (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car must just > whizz by). > > This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... > > Best regards, > > Carlos. > > > On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: > > Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they simply > just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just > before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply notices. > But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines of > "improving traffic." > > > From: Eric Britton To: Cornie Huizenga jane. Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM > Subject: Pedestrian Budget > > Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. > > The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., walkers, > cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can arrive > unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the concept > is otherwise billed.) > > Do I have that right? > > Kind thanks for informing, > > Best/Eric Britton > > PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent truth-seeking > piece for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage > of course. Candidates? > > Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France > +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility > New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners. > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > From edelman at greenidea.eu Tue Mar 16 01:23:03 2010 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:23:03 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9E5EE7.4020307@greenidea.eu> Hi all, First - I hope this does not seem and odd question - for the "experts" whom Carlos spoke of and others who ask ITDP about it, etc, what is the conceptual or philosophical starting point for a "street"? (And I mean all spaces for life between buildings, to paraphrase our dear Mr Gehl). Is the simple space between buildings the natural street, with everything else adding both positive (e.g. fast collective public transport, access for emergency vehicles) and/or negative (e.g. any private automobiles, or at least those moving over typical cycling speed) Or is the starting point the total-Hell-we-need-a-flyover-dont-we?-children-are-scared-to-cross-BUT-if-vehicles dont-move-fast-enough-the-same-children-will-somehow-starve road? Second - for wider streets with heavy/fast road vehicles - why not a pedestrian signal which allows the slowest walking people to cross in one go (no islands), assuming they get to the edge just as the light turns green for them? Or on any major pedestrian routes, how about having a "green wave" for pedestrians with signals based on walking speed along a single route? I see no need at all for a pedestrian flyover, even for streets with BRT or light rail and close intervals. So I am agreeing with Colin, but Walter, you seem to have some reason to disagree but I can't figure out what it is... - Todd (in Europe, on a pretty busy street) Walter Hook wrote: > we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and under many > contexts. I believe that some basic general principals can be followed but > also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted. People can normally cross two > lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not three or > more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be respected. > even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, but as a rule > of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and three lanes > of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better. > > w. > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader wrote: > > >> Dear Carlos >> >> I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken user needs >> analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the >> Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade crossings. I >> believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the at-grade >> crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian volume, >> appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is such >> that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not >> require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take full >> consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being >> placed. >> >> >> Regards >> Colin Brader >> Director >> Integrated Transport Planning Ltd >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader = >> itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org] On >> Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo >> Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42 >> To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport >> Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses >> >> Hi, >> >> The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of >> level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries in >> Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a >> fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and even >> pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" in a >> crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! I've >> been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a specific >> overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they don't >> understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they are >> also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to many >> (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car must just >> >> whizz by). >> >> This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... >> >> Best regards, >> >> Carlos. >> >> >> On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: >> >>> Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they simply >>> >> just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just >> before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply notices. >> But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines of >> "improving traffic." >> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Eric Britton >>> To: Cornie Huizenga; >>> >> jane. >> >>> Cc: Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable >>> >> Transport; >> Kanchan; JasonChang >> >>> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM >>> Subject: Pedestrian Budget >>> >>> Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. >>> >>> The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., >>> >> walkers, >> >>> cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can >>> >> arrive >> >>> unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the >>> >> concept >> >>> is otherwise billed.) >>> >>> Do I have that right? >>> >>> Kind thanks for informing, >>> >>> Best/Eric Britton >>> >>> PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent truth-seeking >>> >> piece >> >>> for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage of >>> course. Candidates? >>> >>> >>> >>> Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. >>> >>> World Streets . www.worldstreets.org >>> 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France >>> +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility >>> New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org >>> 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 >>> +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >>> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >>> >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >>> ================================================================ >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >>> >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> >> > > > > -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Green Idea Factory Urbanstr. 45 D-10967 Berlin Germany Skype: toddedelman Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081 edelman@greenidea.eu www.greenidea.eu www.flickr.com/photos/edelman CAR* is over. If you want it. "Fort mit der Privatautostadt und was Neues hingebaut!" - B. Brecht (with slight modification) * "Car" is a sub-category of automobile, i.e. one used inappropriately, opportunistically or without creativity From whook at itdp.org Tue Mar 16 02:07:53 2010 From: whook at itdp.org (Walter Hook) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:07:53 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: <4B9E5EE7.4020307@greenidea.eu> References: <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> <4B9E5EE7.4020307@greenidea.eu> Message-ID: <38e55ad31003151007i1ccfeec7ifae14e5ba82a4116@mail.gmail.com> Well, certainly we generally agree that its best to have at grade, but we tend to live in a second best world. We tend to recommend that brt stations be placed away from junctions because otherwise it slows down the busway because of bus stop/traffic signal interference, as witnessed in Delhi, significantly slowing both bus speeds and mixed traffic speeds. Placing the bus stop next to the intersection has its ideological merits but frequently results in slower speeds and capacity not only for motorists and also for bus passengers. This offset makes it more complicated for pedestrians who have to cross mid block somewhere. Some BRT roads still have three mixed traffic lanes even mid block, though not very many. TransMilenio does. TransJakarta does, etc. Maybe the road is a national road carrying a lot of long distance truck traffic, a lot of charter buses, minibuses, shared taxis, who knows. Sure, the best solution for three or more lanes of mixed traffic per direction might be a slow bump before the mid block ped crossing, and an elevated crosswalk, and a ped crossing signal, IF the traffic signal phase for pedstrians is reasonably short, when there are three lanes or more of mixed traffic to cross, but many such roads are wide national roads where there are currently restrictions against slow bumps and other major administrative and political hurdles which you just cannot overcome in a short time. If you just make people cross at grade but fail to provide a safe crossing environment for whatever reason, it is probably better to have a pedestrian flyover in a second best world. I've tried to cross mid-block in Jakarta at an at-grade traffic signal where I had to wait for the signal for a long time and then NOBODY respected the pedestrian crossing signal anyway, and I can tell you, in that situation I am very happy for the locations where there is a pedestrian overpass. That doesnt mean there should not also be an at grade crossing. i am all for giving the pedestrians as many choices as possible. So while it is fairly easy to take an ideological position on the matter, there may be a lot of local factors and political realities that dont give two hoots about a pure ideological position and actually do care about traffic flow, etc. So if we offer an at grade option, would we still be against also providing a pedestrian overpass? Pedestrian overpass design matters a lot. many of them are too high, the gradient is too steep, etc. What if there are escalators or elevators? In some cases they get used by a lot of people who are simply trying to cross the street who have trouble crossing the street anyway, in conditions where despite YEARS of advocacy efforts we have simply FAILED to convince the authorities to improve the surface condition. So, I am not sure a hard line against them is constructive. best walter On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory < edelman@greenidea.eu> wrote: > Hi all, > > First - I hope this does not seem and odd question - for the "experts" > whom Carlos spoke of and others who ask ITDP about it, etc, what is the > conceptual or philosophical starting point for a "street"? (And I mean > all spaces for life between buildings, to paraphrase our dear Mr Gehl). > Is the simple space between buildings the natural street, with > everything else adding both positive (e.g. fast collective public > transport, access for emergency vehicles) and/or negative (e.g. any > private automobiles, or at least those moving over typical cycling speed) > > Or is the starting point the > > total-Hell-we-need-a-flyover-dont-we?-children-are-scared-to-cross-BUT-if-vehicles > dont-move-fast-enough-the-same-children-will-somehow-starve road? > > Second - for wider streets with heavy/fast road vehicles - why not a > pedestrian signal which allows the slowest walking people to cross in > one go (no islands), assuming they get to the edge just as the light > turns green for them? Or on any major pedestrian routes, how about > having a "green wave" for > pedestrians with signals based on walking speed along a single route? I > see no need at all for a pedestrian flyover, even for streets with BRT > or light rail and close intervals. So I am agreeing with Colin, but > Walter, you seem to have some reason to disagree but I can't figure out > what it is... > > - Todd (in Europe, on a pretty busy street) > > Walter Hook wrote: > > we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and under many > > contexts. I believe that some basic general principals can be followed > but > > also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted. People can normally cross > two > > lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not three or > > more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be respected. > > even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, but as a > rule > > of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and three > lanes > > of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better. > > > > w. > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader > wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Carlos > >> > >> I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken user needs > >> analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the > >> Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade crossings. I > >> believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the at-grade > >> crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian volume, > >> appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is such > >> that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not > >> require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take full > >> consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being > >> placed. > >> > >> > >> Regards > >> Colin Brader > >> Director > >> Integrated Transport Planning Ltd > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org > >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader= > >> itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org] On > >> Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo > >> Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42 > >> To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > >> Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of > >> level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries in > >> Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a > >> fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and even > >> pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" in a > >> crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! I've > >> been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a specific > >> overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they don't > >> understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they are > >> also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to many > >> (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car must just > >> > >> whizz by). > >> > >> This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> Carlos. > >> > >> > >> On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: > >> > >>> Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they simply > >>> > >> just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just > >> before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply notices. > >> But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines of > >> "improving traffic." > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> From: Eric Britton > >>> To: Cornie Huizenga; > >>> > >> jane. > >> > >>> Cc: Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable > >>> > >> Transport; > >> Kanchan; JasonChang > >> > >>> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM > >>> Subject: Pedestrian Budget > >>> > >>> Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. > >>> > >>> The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., > >>> > >> walkers, > >> > >>> cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can > >>> > >> arrive > >> > >>> unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the > >>> > >> concept > >> > >>> is otherwise billed.) > >>> > >>> Do I have that right? > >>> > >>> Kind thanks for informing, > >>> > >>> Best/Eric Britton > >>> > >>> PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent truth-seeking > >>> > >> piece > >> > >>> for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage of > >>> course. Candidates? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > >>> > >>> World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > >>> 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France > >>> +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility > >>> New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org > >>> 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > >>> +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > >>> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > >>> > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >> > >>> ================================================================ > >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >>> > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > >> (the 'Global South'). > >> > >>> > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >> > >> ================================================================ > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > >> (the 'Global South'). > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >> > >> ================================================================ > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > >> (the 'Global South'). > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > -------------------------------------------- > > Todd Edelman > Green Idea Factory > > Urbanstr. 45 > D-10967 Berlin > Germany > > Skype: toddedelman > Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081 > > edelman@greenidea.eu > www.greenidea.eu > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman > > CAR* is over. If you want it. > > "Fort mit der Privatautostadt und was Neues hingebaut!" > - B. Brecht (with slight modification) > > * "Car" is a sub-category of automobile, i.e. one used inappropriately, > opportunistically or without creativity > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- Walter Hook Executive Director Institute for Transportation and Development Policy 127 W 26 St, Ste 1002 New York, NY 10001 1-212-629-8001 www.itdp.org Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide. From joachim.bergerhoff at unhabitat-kosovo.org Tue Mar 16 02:46:07 2010 From: joachim.bergerhoff at unhabitat-kosovo.org (Joachim Bergerhoff) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:46:07 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: <38e55ad31003151007i1ccfeec7ifae14e5ba82a4116@mail.gmail.com> References: <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> <4B9E5EE7.4020307@greenidea.eu> <38e55ad31003151007i1ccfeec7ifae14e5ba82a4116@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <493cf1c01003151046n55f0d560w2bf205488752198d@mail.gmail.com> Let's consider that, by definition, the street is where the pedestrians and cyclists are. If the street must go over or under a thick stream of motorised traffic flow, so be it. What matters is that this "over- or under- pass-street" is a real street with all the positive features that it should have from the point of view of non-motorised users: short connection, ample space, no obstacles for mobility impaired, safety, attractiveness, etc. An overpass can provide all this, if it is well designed at macro and micro scale. It will not even be perceived as an overpass any longer, because it IS the street and the motor traffic is now underground relative to it. This is of course difficult to achieve in many places, for physical and funding reasons. But I suggest that anybody who considers an over- or under-pass solution should have this vision in mind. Yours, Joachim On 15 March 2010 18:07, Walter Hook wrote: > Well, certainly we generally agree that its best to have at grade, but we > tend to live in a second best world. > > We tend to recommend that brt stations be placed away from junctions > because > otherwise it slows down the busway because of bus stop/traffic signal > interference, as witnessed in Delhi, significantly slowing both bus speeds > and mixed traffic speeds. Placing the bus stop next to the intersection > has > its ideological merits but frequently results in slower speeds and capacity > not only for motorists and also for bus passengers. > > This offset makes it more complicated for pedestrians who have to cross mid > block somewhere. Some BRT roads still have three mixed traffic lanes even > mid block, though not very many. TransMilenio does. TransJakarta does, > etc. Maybe the road is a national road carrying a lot of long distance > truck traffic, a lot of charter buses, minibuses, shared taxis, who knows. > > Sure, the best solution for three or more lanes of mixed traffic per > direction might be a slow bump before the mid block ped crossing, and an > elevated crosswalk, and a ped crossing signal, IF the traffic signal phase > for pedstrians is reasonably short, when there are three lanes or more of > mixed traffic to cross, but many such roads are wide national roads where > there are currently restrictions against slow bumps and other major > administrative and political hurdles which you just cannot overcome in a > short time. > > If you just make people cross at grade but fail to provide a safe crossing > environment for whatever reason, it is probably better to have a pedestrian > flyover in a second best world. I've tried to cross mid-block in Jakarta > at > an at-grade traffic signal where I had to wait for the signal for a long > time and then NOBODY respected the pedestrian crossing signal anyway, and I > can tell you, in that situation I am very happy for the locations where > there is a pedestrian overpass. > > That doesnt mean there should not also be an at grade crossing. i am all > for giving the pedestrians as many choices as possible. > > So while it is fairly easy to take an ideological position on the matter, > there may be a lot of local factors and political realities that dont give > two hoots about a pure ideological position and actually do care about > traffic flow, etc. > > So if we offer an at grade option, would we still be against also providing > a pedestrian overpass? > > Pedestrian overpass design matters a lot. many of them are too high, the > gradient is too steep, etc. What if there are escalators or elevators? > > In some cases they get used by a lot of people who are simply trying to > cross the street who have trouble crossing the street anyway, in conditions > where despite YEARS of advocacy efforts we have simply FAILED to convince > the authorities to improve the surface condition. > > So, I am not sure a hard line against them is constructive. > > best > walter > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory < > edelman@greenidea.eu> wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > First - I hope this does not seem and odd question - for the "experts" > > whom Carlos spoke of and others who ask ITDP about it, etc, what is the > > conceptual or philosophical starting point for a "street"? (And I mean > > all spaces for life between buildings, to paraphrase our dear Mr Gehl). > > Is the simple space between buildings the natural street, with > > everything else adding both positive (e.g. fast collective public > > transport, access for emergency vehicles) and/or negative (e.g. any > > private automobiles, or at least those moving over typical cycling speed) > > > > Or is the starting point the > > > > > total-Hell-we-need-a-flyover-dont-we?-children-are-scared-to-cross-BUT-if-vehicles > > dont-move-fast-enough-the-same-children-will-somehow-starve road? > > > > Second - for wider streets with heavy/fast road vehicles - why not a > > pedestrian signal which allows the slowest walking people to cross in > > one go (no islands), assuming they get to the edge just as the light > > turns green for them? Or on any major pedestrian routes, how about > > having a "green wave" for > > pedestrians with signals based on walking speed along a single route? I > > see no need at all for a pedestrian flyover, even for streets with BRT > > or light rail and close intervals. So I am agreeing with Colin, but > > Walter, you seem to have some reason to disagree but I can't figure out > > what it is... > > > > - Todd (in Europe, on a pretty busy street) > > > > Walter Hook wrote: > > > we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and under many > > > contexts. I believe that some basic general principals can be followed > > but > > > also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted. People can normally cross > > two > > > lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not three > or > > > more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be respected. > > > even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, but as a > > rule > > > of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and three > > lanes > > > of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better. > > > > > > w. > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >> Dear Carlos > > >> > > >> I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken user > needs > > >> analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the > > >> Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade crossings. > I > > >> believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the > at-grade > > >> crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian > volume, > > >> appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is such > > >> that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not > > >> require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take full > > >> consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being > > >> placed. > > >> > > >> > > >> Regards > > >> Colin Brader > > >> Director > > >> Integrated Transport Planning Ltd > > >> > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org > > >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader > = > > >> itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org] On > > >> Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo > > >> Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42 > > >> To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > > >> Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses > > >> > > >> Hi, > > >> > > >> The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of > > >> level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries in > > >> Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a > > >> fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and even > > >> pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" in a > > >> crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! > I've > > >> been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a specific > > >> overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they don't > > >> understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they are > > >> also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to many > > >> (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car must > just > > >> > > >> whizz by). > > >> > > >> This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... > > >> > > >> Best regards, > > >> > > >> Carlos. > > >> > > >> > > >> On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: > > >> > > >>> Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they simply > > >>> > > >> just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just > > >> before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply > notices. > > >> But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines of > > >> "improving traffic." > > >> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ________________________________ > > >>> From: Eric Britton > > >>> To: Cornie Huizenga; > > >>> > > >> jane. > > >> > > >>> Cc: Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable > > >>> > > >> Transport; > > >> Kanchan; JasonChang > > >> > > >>> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM > > >>> Subject: Pedestrian Budget > > >>> > > >>> Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. > > >>> > > >>> The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., > > >>> > > >> walkers, > > >> > > >>> cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can > > >>> > > >> arrive > > >> > > >>> unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the > > >>> > > >> concept > > >> > > >>> is otherwise billed.) > > >>> > > >>> Do I have that right? > > >>> > > >>> Kind thanks for informing, > > >>> > > >>> Best/Eric Britton > > >>> > > >>> PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent truth-seeking > > >>> > > >> piece > > >> > > >>> for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage > of > > >>> course. Candidates? > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > >>> > > >>> World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > > >>> 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France > > >>> +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype > newmobility > > >>> New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org > > >>> 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > > >>> +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > > >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > >>> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > >>> > > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > > >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > >>> > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > > real > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > >> > > >>> ================================================================ > > >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > >>> > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > >> > > >>> > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > >> > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > > real > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > >> > > >> ================================================================ > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > >> > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > > real > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > >> > > >> ================================================================ > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > Todd Edelman > > Green Idea Factory > > > > Urbanstr. 45 > > D-10967 Berlin > > Germany > > > > Skype: toddedelman > > Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081 > > > > edelman@greenidea.eu > > www.greenidea.eu > > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman > > > > CAR* is over. If you want it. > > > > "Fort mit der Privatautostadt und was Neues hingebaut!" > > - B. Brecht (with slight modification) > > > > * "Car" is a sub-category of automobile, i.e. one used inappropriately, > > opportunistically or without creativity > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > -- > > Walter Hook > Executive Director > Institute for Transportation and Development Policy > 127 W 26 St, Ste 1002 > New York, NY 10001 > 1-212-629-8001 > www.itdp.org > > Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide. > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > From patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 03:44:34 2010 From: patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com (Sujit Patwardhan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:14:34 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8fba064c1003151144g397c5d4eoa1a1331571f75eb6@mail.gmail.com> 15 March 2010 I feel that except for roads connecting heavy traffic between cities, one should avoid having more than two lanes per direction so the question of anything other than at grade pedestrian crossings just doesn't arise. However I don't know how a BRT is then going to fit into this ?? To me most streets in London and Paris (as well as many cites that I have been able to see as a pedestrian, like D?sseldorf, Berlin, Amsterdam, Heidelberg etc) seem to fit the bill. To allow city streets to expand to four lanes or more per direction in the first place (in order to facilitate faster movement of cars) is something to be avoided. If a few streets need to be that wide (for historical reasons rather than through deliberate design) then they should be pushed underground, in tunnels or with open to sky grade separators (like the autobahn passing through German cities like Duisburg) while pedestrian, cycles, buses and even slow moving cars continue to move slower than 30 Km/hr at the normal ground level, because we should be concerned not only about vehicular traffic but also the ambiance (Q of Life) of the city. Your observation that many pedestrians too prefer overpasses is correct but perhaps not for the obvious reason. Given the growing domination of the auto vehicle in developing countries and the high status cars enjoy, people just can't believe that making them (cars) stop for pedestrians is a very realistic or workable idea. If they get the taste of how pleasant it is for people to walk or cycle in safety and comfort in a city with enforced speed limits and adequate public spaces, I feel they will not look twice at overpasses designed to get them off the road for the benefit of the auto vehicle (two wheelers and cars). -- Sujit On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 7:12 AM, Carlosfelipe Pardo wrote: > Hi, > > The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of > level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries in > Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a > fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and even > pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" in a > crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! I've > been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a specific > overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they don't > understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they are > also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to many > (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car must just > whizz by). > > This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... > > Best regards, > > Carlos. > > > On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: > > Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they simply > just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just before > construction started, but as I recall, they were simply notices. But I > suppose the justification would be something along the lines of "improving > traffic." > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Eric Britton > > To: Cornie Huizenga; jane.< > voodikon@yahoo.com> > > Cc: Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport< > sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org>; Kanchan; > JasonChang > > Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM > > Subject: Pedestrian Budget > > > > Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. > > > > The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., walkers, > > cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can > arrive > > unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the > concept > > is otherwise billed.) > > > > Do I have that right? > > > > Kind thanks for informing, > > > > Best/Eric Britton > > > > PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent truth-seeking > piece > > for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage of > > course. Candidates? > > > > > > > > Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > > > World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > > 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France > > +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility > > New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org > > 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > > +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ?..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment to destroy the city? Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel Munich 1970 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sujit Patwardhan patwardhan.sujit@gmail.com sujitjp@gmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India Tel: +91 20 25537955 Cell: +91 98220 26627 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Parisar: www.parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From edelman at greenidea.eu Tue Mar 16 04:13:53 2010 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:13:53 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: <8fba064c1003151144g397c5d4eoa1a1331571f75eb6@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <8fba064c1003151144g397c5d4eoa1a1331571f75eb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9E86F1.1050307@greenidea.eu> Hi, Why should pedestrians or cyclists stop for cars? *** OK., I have had this communication idea for crossing the street, and will give it away*: This could be a web animation or with real actors... You see a person walking down the pavement on street with their dog. They leave the frame (view) towards traffic and you hear them say "sit". Then the camera pans over and you see that they are already most of the way across a zebra, crossing the street: It is the car at the zebra that is sitting. - T * More ideas where this came from. Sujit Patwardhan wrote: > 15 March 2010 > > > I feel that except for roads connecting heavy traffic between cities, one > should avoid having more than two lanes per direction so the question of > anything other than at grade pedestrian crossings just doesn't arise. > However I don't know how a BRT is then going to fit into this ?? > > To me most streets in London and Paris (as well as many cites that I have > been able to see as a pedestrian, like D?sseldorf, Berlin, Amsterdam, > Heidelberg etc) seem to fit the bill. To allow city streets to expand to > four lanes or more per direction in the first place (in order to facilitate > faster movement of cars) is something to be avoided. If a few streets need > to be that wide (for historical reasons rather than through deliberate > design) then they should be pushed underground, in tunnels or with open to > sky grade separators (like the autobahn passing through German cities like > Duisburg) while pedestrian, cycles, buses and even slow moving cars continue > to move slower than 30 Km/hr at the normal ground level, because we should > be concerned not only about vehicular traffic but also the ambiance (Q of > Life) of the city. > > Your observation that many pedestrians too prefer overpasses is correct but > perhaps not for the obvious reason. Given the growing domination of the auto > vehicle in developing countries and the high status cars enjoy, people just > can't believe that making them (cars) stop for pedestrians is a very > realistic or workable idea. > > If they get the taste of how pleasant it is for people to walk or cycle in > safety and comfort in a city with enforced speed limits and adequate public > spaces, I feel they will not look twice at overpasses designed to get them > off the road for the benefit of the auto vehicle (two wheelers and cars). > > -- > Sujit > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 7:12 AM, Carlosfelipe Pardo > wrote: > > >> Hi, >> >> The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of >> level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries in >> Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a >> fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and even >> pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" in a >> crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! I've >> been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a specific >> overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they don't >> understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they are >> also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to many >> (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car must just >> whizz by). >> >> This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... >> >> Best regards, >> >> Carlos. >> >> >> On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: >> >>> Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they simply >>> >> just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just before >> construction started, but as I recall, they were simply notices. But I >> suppose the justification would be something along the lines of "improving >> traffic." >> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Eric Britton >>> To: Cornie Huizenga; jane.< >>> >> voodikon@yahoo.com> >> >>> Cc: Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport< >>> >> sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org>; Kanchan; >> JasonChang >> >>> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM >>> Subject: Pedestrian Budget >>> >>> Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. >>> >>> The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., walkers, >>> cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can >>> >> arrive >> >>> unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the >>> >> concept >> >>> is otherwise billed.) >>> >>> Do I have that right? >>> >>> Kind thanks for informing, >>> >>> Best/Eric Britton >>> >>> PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent truth-seeking >>> >> piece >> >>> for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage of >>> course. Candidates? >>> >>> >>> >>> Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. >>> >>> World Streets . www.worldstreets.org >>> 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France >>> +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility >>> New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org >>> 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 >>> +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >>> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >>> >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >>> ================================================================ >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >>> >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> >> > > > > -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Green Idea Factory Urbanstr. 45 D-10967 Berlin Germany Skype: toddedelman Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081 edelman@greenidea.eu www.greenidea.eu www.flickr.com/photos/edelman CAR* is over. If you want it. "Fort mit der Privatautostadt und was Neues hingebaut!" - B. Brecht (with slight modification) * "Car" is a sub-category of automobile, i.e. one used inappropriately, opportunistically or without creativity From ianenvironmental at googlemail.com Tue Mar 16 08:17:22 2010 From: ianenvironmental at googlemail.com (Ian Perry) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:17:22 +0100 Subject: [sustran] 'Shared Space' Message-ID: In 1924, with a high accident rate amongst pedestrians, only 1% of Americans rated ?poor roads? as the ?biggest? cause of automobile accidents. In1926, a report on the accident problem in Connecticut put one accident in 150 down to road design. In fact, the eventual segregation of pedestrians and vehicles resulted in drivers speeding up and more accidents ? resulting in the dividers between carriageways, with which we are now familiar. In the US and Europe, despite segregation and education, humans still ?fail?? Given the success of ?shared space? in Europe, are the accidents in developing countries down to lack of segregation? Is the death toll amongst pedestrians acceptable where there is segregation? Perhaps, the sections of road where pedestrians are segregated increase driver expectations that all roads are, or should be, segregated. Are there clusters of accidents where drivers enter a non-segregated section, from a segregated one (that allows higher speeds)? Is the problem the ?quick? addition of ?advanced? vehicles to streets in the developing world, combined with drivers who have been educated by American movies to believe that ?roads are for cars?? Trucks, that move unpredictably, along with buses, account to 50-60% of fatalities on Indian roads. Light rail moves predictably and one cargo tram can carry the load of three trucks and one tram can replace many private cars. The department for Transport (UK) has appraised existing ?shared space? schemes in Europe. ?Shared space? makes life easier for many pedestrians and turns a street into a more aesthetically pleasing ?place?. Schemes appear to have increased the numbers of pedestrians and cyclists (particularly in the UK) without adverse affects on safety. http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/sustainable/sharedspace/stage1/pdf/stage1.pdf *?One of the conclusions is that the new approach can be applied for traffic volumes of up to 6600 motor vehicles per 24 hours without causing a noticeable difference in the number of accidents. Objective statistics show that there is no difference in road safety between the new planning approach and a traditional road layout. The study has shown, however, that applying the new approach to volumes of 13,7000 vehicles per 24 hours will have an adverse effect on the number of accidents. There is a grey area for traffic volumes of between 6600 and 13,700 vehicles per day.?* Bradford on Avon is the latest of many UK towns and cities (following Ashford, Newbury and Bristol) to announce a shared space scheme. http://www.bradfordonavon.com/archives/873 Other UK councils still believe that traffic and pedestrians should not mix, but when The London Road Safety Unit Research produced their report: ?The effect of newly installed Puffin crossings on collisions?,* *looking at changes in collisions before and after implementation of 23 new stand-alone Puffin crossings, despite collisions falling throughout London due to congestion, they found: ?*When grouped by previous crossing facility, there were reductions in total and pedestrian collisions for nearly all site types. However, where there had previously been no formal crossing, total collisions rose*.? http://londonroadsafety.tfl.gov.uk/www/downloads/publications/Puffin-Collision-Report-Final.pdf Ian Perry From ianenvironmental at googlemail.com Tue Mar 16 08:33:16 2010 From: ianenvironmental at googlemail.com (Ian Perry) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:33:16 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian Budget In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I have managed to find some information from the UK - though more a split of how money is spent on pedestrians/road safety than for the entire budget. I hope this is interesting, if not useful. In Wales, the Welsh Assembly Government's Local Road Safety Grant (2008/09) of ?313,000 to the Vale of Glamorgan council was budgeted as follows: ? ?98,500 to provide revenue for Road Safety Education Training and Publicity. ? ?210,000 will be used for Road Safety Engineering Projects ? ?4,500 as a contingency fund. >From the ?210,000 budget, the change of a zebra crossing to a puffin crossing in Cowbridge, cost ?45,000 (?30,000 for the crossing plus an additional ?15,000 because they moved the crossing 20 metres down the road to improve traffic flows). http://www.valeofglamorgan.gov.uk/our_council/council/minutes,_agendas__reports/reports/cabinet/2007/07-05-09/road_safety.aspx nb. "some" of the budget went on consultants and employee salaries. In Bridport in Dorset (UK), 2 years ago a Puffin crossing cost ?26,000 to install, at the same time a four way lights controlled junction was upgraded from Pelicans to Puffins costing ?85,000. Last year the removal of a Zebra crossing, resurfacing and installation of a Pelican crossing with pedestrian 'refuge' (caged) island cost ?100,000. For more information as to what traffic and pedestrian measures cost in the UK, see Appendix A of: http://www.bristol.gov.uk/item/wrap/Council/committee/2010/ne/ne003/0216_9.pdf Shared space costs ?75,000+ Zebra pedestrian crossing ?15-25,000 Pedestrian ?refuge? island ?10,000+ Infrastructure is expensive business! Ian Perry On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 5:22 AM, Sudhir wrote: > Dear all, > > We are searching for % of Budget allocated for pedestrians in our cities > and > unfortunately could not find many Asian cities. > > Do you know how much % of money authorities are planning to invest on > pedestrians in your city? > > thanks, > Sudhir Gota > Transport Specialist > CAI-Asia Center > Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, > ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City > Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 > Tel: +63-2-395-2843 > Fax: +63-2-395-2846 > Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org > Skype : sudhirgota > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > From sudhir at cai-asia.org Tue Mar 16 09:55:17 2010 From: sudhir at cai-asia.org (Sudhir) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:55:17 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: <493cf1c01003151046n55f0d560w2bf205488752198d@mail.gmail.com> References: <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> <4B9E5EE7.4020307@greenidea.eu> <38e55ad31003151007i1ccfeec7ifae14e5ba82a4116@mail.gmail.com> <493cf1c01003151046n55f0d560w2bf205488752198d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree with Joachim... if only we can provide the best space ...... I have been a very bad road designer in past and used to use many thumbrules ( which people call as guidelines) when designing the roads. I have realized over time that people are bound to take shortest and convenient route many a times irrespective of risks involved. Thus you see people running across in the road below a overpass. This explains the non-usage of bad overpass. In order to even prevent that we have used 1m medians to prevent people from thinking at-grade... Providing an overpass one needs to marry geometry with landscape....there are only few good asian examples of this... for the bad examples there are thousands... see this photo which i consider the best example of our mindset... i took this in cebu and was shocked when i saw this "wonder of new world" http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yhbUFBRBDMo/SgeA8NTVOYI/AAAAAAAAAD4/C-42VqEK3_4/s1600-h/Picture+1031.jpg cheers Sudhir On 16 March 2010 01:46, Joachim Bergerhoff < joachim.bergerhoff@unhabitat-kosovo.org> wrote: > Let's consider that, by definition, the street is where the pedestrians and > cyclists are. If the street must go over or under a thick stream of > motorised traffic flow, so be it. What matters is that this "over- or > under- pass-street" is a real street with all the positive features that it > should have from the point of view of non-motorised users: short > connection, > ample space, no obstacles for mobility impaired, safety, attractiveness, > etc. An overpass can provide all this, if it is well designed at macro and > micro scale. It will not even be perceived as an overpass any longer, > because it IS the street and the motor traffic is now underground relative > to it. This is of course difficult to achieve in many places, for physical > and funding reasons. But I suggest that anybody who considers an over- or > under-pass solution should have this vision in mind. > Yours, > Joachim > > > > > > > > > > > On 15 March 2010 18:07, Walter Hook wrote: > > > Well, certainly we generally agree that its best to have at grade, but we > > tend to live in a second best world. > > > > We tend to recommend that brt stations be placed away from junctions > > because > > otherwise it slows down the busway because of bus stop/traffic signal > > interference, as witnessed in Delhi, significantly slowing both bus > speeds > > and mixed traffic speeds. Placing the bus stop next to the intersection > > has > > its ideological merits but frequently results in slower speeds and > capacity > > not only for motorists and also for bus passengers. > > > > This offset makes it more complicated for pedestrians who have to cross > mid > > block somewhere. Some BRT roads still have three mixed traffic lanes > even > > mid block, though not very many. TransMilenio does. TransJakarta does, > > etc. Maybe the road is a national road carrying a lot of long distance > > truck traffic, a lot of charter buses, minibuses, shared taxis, who > knows. > > > > Sure, the best solution for three or more lanes of mixed traffic per > > direction might be a slow bump before the mid block ped crossing, and an > > elevated crosswalk, and a ped crossing signal, IF the traffic signal > phase > > for pedstrians is reasonably short, when there are three lanes or more of > > mixed traffic to cross, but many such roads are wide national roads where > > there are currently restrictions against slow bumps and other major > > administrative and political hurdles which you just cannot overcome in a > > short time. > > > > If you just make people cross at grade but fail to provide a safe > crossing > > environment for whatever reason, it is probably better to have a > pedestrian > > flyover in a second best world. I've tried to cross mid-block in Jakarta > > at > > an at-grade traffic signal where I had to wait for the signal for a long > > time and then NOBODY respected the pedestrian crossing signal anyway, and > I > > can tell you, in that situation I am very happy for the locations where > > there is a pedestrian overpass. > > > > That doesnt mean there should not also be an at grade crossing. i am > all > > for giving the pedestrians as many choices as possible. > > > > So while it is fairly easy to take an ideological position on the matter, > > there may be a lot of local factors and political realities that dont > give > > two hoots about a pure ideological position and actually do care about > > traffic flow, etc. > > > > So if we offer an at grade option, would we still be against also > providing > > a pedestrian overpass? > > > > Pedestrian overpass design matters a lot. many of them are too high, the > > gradient is too steep, etc. What if there are escalators or elevators? > > > > In some cases they get used by a lot of people who are simply trying to > > cross the street who have trouble crossing the street anyway, in > conditions > > where despite YEARS of advocacy efforts we have simply FAILED to convince > > the authorities to improve the surface condition. > > > > So, I am not sure a hard line against them is constructive. > > > > best > > walter > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory < > > edelman@greenidea.eu> wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > First - I hope this does not seem and odd question - for the "experts" > > > whom Carlos spoke of and others who ask ITDP about it, etc, what is the > > > conceptual or philosophical starting point for a "street"? (And I mean > > > all spaces for life between buildings, to paraphrase our dear Mr Gehl). > > > Is the simple space between buildings the natural street, with > > > everything else adding both positive (e.g. fast collective public > > > transport, access for emergency vehicles) and/or negative (e.g. any > > > private automobiles, or at least those moving over typical cycling > speed) > > > > > > Or is the starting point the > > > > > > > > > total-Hell-we-need-a-flyover-dont-we?-children-are-scared-to-cross-BUT-if-vehicles > > > dont-move-fast-enough-the-same-children-will-somehow-starve road? > > > > > > Second - for wider streets with heavy/fast road vehicles - why not a > > > pedestrian signal which allows the slowest walking people to cross in > > > one go (no islands), assuming they get to the edge just as the light > > > turns green for them? Or on any major pedestrian routes, how about > > > having a "green wave" for > > > pedestrians with signals based on walking speed along a single route? I > > > see no need at all for a pedestrian flyover, even for streets with BRT > > > or light rail and close intervals. So I am agreeing with Colin, but > > > Walter, you seem to have some reason to disagree but I can't figure out > > > what it is... > > > > > > - Todd (in Europe, on a pretty busy street) > > > > > > Walter Hook wrote: > > > > we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and under > many > > > > contexts. I believe that some basic general principals can be > followed > > > but > > > > also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted. People can normally > cross > > > two > > > > lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not > three > > or > > > > more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be > respected. > > > > even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, but as > a > > > rule > > > > of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and three > > > lanes > > > > of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better. > > > > > > > > w. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Dear Carlos > > > >> > > > >> I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken user > > needs > > > >> analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the > > > >> Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade > crossings. > > I > > > >> believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the > > at-grade > > > >> crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian > > volume, > > > >> appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is > such > > > >> that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not > > > >> require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take full > > > >> consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being > > > >> placed. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Regards > > > >> Colin Brader > > > >> Director > > > >> Integrated Transport Planning Ltd > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org > > > >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader > > > = > > > >> itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org] On > > > >> Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo > > > >> Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42 > > > >> To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > > > >> Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses > > > >> > > > >> Hi, > > > >> > > > >> The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of > > > >> level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries in > > > >> Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a > > > >> fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and even > > > >> pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" in > a > > > >> crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! > > I've > > > >> been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a specific > > > >> overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they > don't > > > >> understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they > are > > > >> also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to many > > > >> (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car must > > just > > > >> > > > >> whizz by). > > > >> > > > >> This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... > > > >> > > > >> Best regards, > > > >> > > > >> Carlos. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they > simply > > > >>> > > > >> just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just > > > >> before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply > > notices. > > > >> But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines > of > > > >> "improving traffic." > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> ________________________________ > > > >>> From: Eric Britton > > > >>> To: Cornie Huizenga; > > > >>> > > > >> jane. > > > >> > > > >>> Cc: Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable > > > >>> > > > >> Transport; > > > >> Kanchan; JasonChang > > > >> > > > >>> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM > > > >>> Subject: Pedestrian Budget > > > >>> > > > >>> Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. > > > >>> > > > >>> The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., > > > >>> > > > >> walkers, > > > >> > > > >>> cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can > > > >>> > > > >> arrive > > > >> > > > >>> unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the > > > >>> > > > >> concept > > > >> > > > >>> is otherwise billed.) > > > >>> > > > >>> Do I have that right? > > > >>> > > > >>> Kind thanks for informing, > > > >>> > > > >>> Best/Eric Britton > > > >>> > > > >>> PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent > truth-seeking > > > >>> > > > >> piece > > > >> > > > >>> for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage > > of > > > >>> course. Candidates? > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > > >>> > > > >>> World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > > > >>> 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France > > > >>> +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype > > newmobility > > > >>> New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org > > > >>> 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > > > >>> +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > >>> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > >>> > > > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > >>> > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > > > real > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > >> > > > >>> ================================================================ > > > >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > > >>> > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > countries > > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > >> > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > > > real > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > >> > > > >> ================================================================ > > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > countries > > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > >> > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > > > real > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > >> > > > >> ================================================================ > > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > countries > > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Todd Edelman > > > Green Idea Factory > > > > > > Urbanstr. 45 > > > D-10967 Berlin > > > Germany > > > > > > Skype: toddedelman > > > Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081 > > > > > > edelman@greenidea.eu > > > www.greenidea.eu > > > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman > > > > > > CAR* is over. If you want it. > > > > > > "Fort mit der Privatautostadt und was Neues hingebaut!" > > > - B. Brecht (with slight modification) > > > > > > * "Car" is a sub-category of automobile, i.e. one used inappropriately, > > > opportunistically or without creativity > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real > > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > > > ================================================================ > > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Walter Hook > > Executive Director > > Institute for Transportation and Development Policy > > 127 W 26 St, Ste 1002 > > New York, NY 10001 > > 1-212-629-8001 > > www.itdp.org > > > > Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- Sudhir Gota Transport Specialist CAI-Asia Center Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 Tel: +63-2-395-2843 Fax: +63-2-395-2846 Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org Skype : sudhirgota From bert.fabian at cai-asia.org Tue Mar 16 11:25:34 2010 From: bert.fabian at cai-asia.org (Bert Fabian) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:25:34 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: References: <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> <4B9E5EE7.4020307@greenidea.eu> <38e55ad31003151007i1ccfeec7ifae14e5ba82a4116@mail.gmail.com> <493cf1c01003151046n55f0d560w2bf205488752198d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <62bb88a1003151925gf165d93h94dcf6b79345c891@mail.gmail.com> Nice one Sudhir... "I've been a very bad road designer..." :-) I'm sure you were not. Problem with these overpasses in several areas here in the Philippines is that it's being used as a political propaganda by several politicians showing false progress. Also, there are cases, where it's perfectly ok to retain at-grade crossings because traffic cycle time can allow pedestrians to cross and especially when traffic is at standstill; but because there are overpasses, traffic enforcers simply don't allow people to use the street to cross at-grade. Dear Carlos, Sudhir and I had a discussion with the General Manager of the Metro Manila Development Authority because in one of our meetings last Nov we told him, that installing overpasses in all junctions and not allowing pedestrians to cross at-grade is not the trend if you look at other cities, especially in Europe. Of course, he challenged us to provide such studies or reports which indicate this. Unfortunately, there are not really many. In the report, we're preparing we will be able to show that pedestrian preference points to at-grade crossings. I agree with Walter that perhaps having a hardline on this issue will not be constructive after all. This goes back to the discussion of convincing the authorities to truly prioritize people over vehicles. In the case of Metro Manila, these traffic junction overpasses are clearly constructed to improve over-all traffic flow, as it is an indicator for the authorities that they are fixing the traffic congestion problem. Dear Colin, Good that you found preference for at-grade crossings in your work in the Philippines. We have also conducted some pedestrian preference surveys and results vary on the preference for crossings. In our Manila survey, we also got more preference for at-grade crossings but for Davao, majority was for overpasses. It would be interesting to see your results, if you can share this. I believe you conducted your user needs analysis for Cebu? Best regards, Bert On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Sudhir wrote: > I agree with Joachim... if only we can provide the best space ...... > > I have been a very bad road designer in past and used to use many > thumbrules ( which people call as guidelines) when designing the roads. I > have realized over time that people are bound to take shortest and > convenient route many a times irrespective of risks involved. Thus you see > people running across in the road below a overpass. This explains the > non-usage of bad overpass. > In order to even prevent that we have used 1m medians to prevent people > from > thinking at-grade... > > Providing an overpass one needs to marry geometry with landscape....there > are only few good asian examples of this... > > for the bad examples there are thousands... > > see this photo which i consider the best example of our mindset... > > i took this in cebu and was shocked when i saw this "wonder of new world" > > > http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yhbUFBRBDMo/SgeA8NTVOYI/AAAAAAAAAD4/C-42VqEK3_4/s1600-h/Picture+1031.jpg > > cheers > Sudhir > > > On 16 March 2010 01:46, Joachim Bergerhoff < > joachim.bergerhoff@unhabitat-kosovo.org> wrote: > > > Let's consider that, by definition, the street is where the pedestrians > and > > cyclists are. If the street must go over or under a thick stream of > > motorised traffic flow, so be it. What matters is that this "over- or > > under- pass-street" is a real street with all the positive features that > it > > should have from the point of view of non-motorised users: short > > connection, > > ample space, no obstacles for mobility impaired, safety, attractiveness, > > etc. An overpass can provide all this, if it is well designed at macro > and > > micro scale. It will not even be perceived as an overpass any longer, > > because it IS the street and the motor traffic is now underground > relative > > to it. This is of course difficult to achieve in many places, for > physical > > and funding reasons. But I suggest that anybody who considers an over- > or > > under-pass solution should have this vision in mind. > > Yours, > > Joachim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 15 March 2010 18:07, Walter Hook wrote: > > > > > Well, certainly we generally agree that its best to have at grade, but > we > > > tend to live in a second best world. > > > > > > We tend to recommend that brt stations be placed away from junctions > > > because > > > otherwise it slows down the busway because of bus stop/traffic signal > > > interference, as witnessed in Delhi, significantly slowing both bus > > speeds > > > and mixed traffic speeds. Placing the bus stop next to the > intersection > > > has > > > its ideological merits but frequently results in slower speeds and > > capacity > > > not only for motorists and also for bus passengers. > > > > > > This offset makes it more complicated for pedestrians who have to cross > > mid > > > block somewhere. Some BRT roads still have three mixed traffic lanes > > even > > > mid block, though not very many. TransMilenio does. TransJakarta > does, > > > etc. Maybe the road is a national road carrying a lot of long distance > > > truck traffic, a lot of charter buses, minibuses, shared taxis, who > > knows. > > > > > > Sure, the best solution for three or more lanes of mixed traffic per > > > direction might be a slow bump before the mid block ped crossing, and > an > > > elevated crosswalk, and a ped crossing signal, IF the traffic signal > > phase > > > for pedstrians is reasonably short, when there are three lanes or more > of > > > mixed traffic to cross, but many such roads are wide national roads > where > > > there are currently restrictions against slow bumps and other major > > > administrative and political hurdles which you just cannot overcome in > a > > > short time. > > > > > > If you just make people cross at grade but fail to provide a safe > > crossing > > > environment for whatever reason, it is probably better to have a > > pedestrian > > > flyover in a second best world. I've tried to cross mid-block in > Jakarta > > > at > > > an at-grade traffic signal where I had to wait for the signal for a > long > > > time and then NOBODY respected the pedestrian crossing signal anyway, > and > > I > > > can tell you, in that situation I am very happy for the locations where > > > there is a pedestrian overpass. > > > > > > That doesnt mean there should not also be an at grade crossing. i am > > all > > > for giving the pedestrians as many choices as possible. > > > > > > So while it is fairly easy to take an ideological position on the > matter, > > > there may be a lot of local factors and political realities that dont > > give > > > two hoots about a pure ideological position and actually do care about > > > traffic flow, etc. > > > > > > So if we offer an at grade option, would we still be against also > > providing > > > a pedestrian overpass? > > > > > > Pedestrian overpass design matters a lot. many of them are too high, > the > > > gradient is too steep, etc. What if there are escalators or elevators? > > > > > > In some cases they get used by a lot of people who are simply trying to > > > cross the street who have trouble crossing the street anyway, in > > conditions > > > where despite YEARS of advocacy efforts we have simply FAILED to > convince > > > the authorities to improve the surface condition. > > > > > > So, I am not sure a hard line against them is constructive. > > > > > > best > > > walter > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory < > > > edelman@greenidea.eu> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > First - I hope this does not seem and odd question - for the > "experts" > > > > whom Carlos spoke of and others who ask ITDP about it, etc, what is > the > > > > conceptual or philosophical starting point for a "street"? (And I > mean > > > > all spaces for life between buildings, to paraphrase our dear Mr > Gehl). > > > > Is the simple space between buildings the natural street, with > > > > everything else adding both positive (e.g. fast collective public > > > > transport, access for emergency vehicles) and/or negative (e.g. any > > > > private automobiles, or at least those moving over typical cycling > > speed) > > > > > > > > Or is the starting point the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > total-Hell-we-need-a-flyover-dont-we?-children-are-scared-to-cross-BUT-if-vehicles > > > > dont-move-fast-enough-the-same-children-will-somehow-starve road? > > > > > > > > Second - for wider streets with heavy/fast road vehicles - why not a > > > > pedestrian signal which allows the slowest walking people to cross in > > > > one go (no islands), assuming they get to the edge just as the light > > > > turns green for them? Or on any major pedestrian routes, how about > > > > having a "green wave" for > > > > pedestrians with signals based on walking speed along a single route? > I > > > > see no need at all for a pedestrian flyover, even for streets with > BRT > > > > or light rail and close intervals. So I am agreeing with Colin, but > > > > Walter, you seem to have some reason to disagree but I can't figure > out > > > > what it is... > > > > > > > > - Todd (in Europe, on a pretty busy street) > > > > > > > > Walter Hook wrote: > > > > > we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and under > > many > > > > > contexts. I believe that some basic general principals can be > > followed > > > > but > > > > > also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted. People can normally > > cross > > > > two > > > > > lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not > > three > > > or > > > > > more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be > > respected. > > > > > even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, but > as > > a > > > > rule > > > > > of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and > three > > > > lanes > > > > > of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better. > > > > > > > > > > w. > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Dear Carlos > > > > >> > > > > >> I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken user > > > needs > > > > >> analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the > > > > >> Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade > > crossings. > > > I > > > > >> believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the > > > at-grade > > > > >> crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian > > > volume, > > > > >> appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is > > such > > > > >> that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not > > > > >> require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take > full > > > > >> consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being > > > > >> placed. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Regards > > > > >> Colin Brader > > > > >> Director > > > > >> Integrated Transport Planning Ltd > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net@ > list.jca.apc.org > > > > >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader > > > > > > = > > > > >> itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org] On > > > > >> Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo > > > > >> Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42 > > > > >> To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > > > > >> Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses > > > > >> > > > > >> Hi, > > > > >> > > > > >> The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of > > > > >> level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries > in > > > > >> Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as > a > > > > >> fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and > even > > > > >> pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" > in > > a > > > > >> crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! > > > I've > > > > >> been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a > specific > > > > >> overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they > > don't > > > > >> understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they > > are > > > > >> also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to > many > > > > >> (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car > must > > > just > > > > >> > > > > >> whizz by). > > > > >> > > > > >> This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... > > > > >> > > > > >> Best regards, > > > > >> > > > > >> Carlos. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they > > simply > > > > >>> > > > > >> just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just > > > > >> before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply > > > notices. > > > > >> But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines > > of > > > > >> "improving traffic." > > > > >> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> ________________________________ > > > > >>> From: Eric Britton > > > > >>> To: Cornie Huizenga; > > > > >>> > > > > >> jane. > > > > >> > > > > >>> Cc: Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable > > > > >>> > > > > >> Transport; > > > > >> Kanchan; JasonChang > > > > >> > > > > >>> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM > > > > >>> Subject: Pedestrian Budget > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., > > > > >>> > > > > >> walkers, > > > > >> > > > > >>> cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers > can > > > > >>> > > > > >> arrive > > > > >> > > > > >>> unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how > the > > > > >>> > > > > >> concept > > > > >> > > > > >>> is otherwise billed.) > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Do I have that right? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Kind thanks for informing, > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Best/Eric Britton > > > > >>> > > > > >>> PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent > > truth-seeking > > > > >>> > > > > >> piece > > > > >> > > > > >>> for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced > coverage > > > of > > > > >>> course. Candidates? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > > > > >>> 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France > > > > >>> +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype > > > newmobility > > > > >>> New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org > > > > >>> 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > > > > >>> +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > > >>> > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > >>> > > > > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > > >>> > > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the > > > > real > > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > >> > > > > >>> ================================================================ > > > > >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of > people-centred, > > > > >>> > > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > > countries > > > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > > > >> > > > > >>> > > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > > >> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > >> > > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the > > > > real > > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > >> > > > > >> ================================================================ > > > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of > people-centred, > > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > > countries > > > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > > >> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > >> > > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the > > > > real > > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > >> > > > > >> ================================================================ > > > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of > people-centred, > > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > > countries > > > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Todd Edelman > > > > Green Idea Factory > > > > > > > > Urbanstr. 45 > > > > D-10967 Berlin > > > > Germany > > > > > > > > Skype: toddedelman > > > > Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081 > > > > > > > > edelman@greenidea.eu > > > > www.greenidea.eu > > > > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman > > > > > > > > CAR* is over. If you want it. > > > > > > > > "Fort mit der Privatautostadt und was Neues hingebaut!" > > > > - B. Brecht (with slight modification) > > > > > > > > * "Car" is a sub-category of automobile, i.e. one used > inappropriately, > > > > opportunistically or without creativity > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > > real > > > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > > > > > ================================================================ > > > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > countries > > > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Walter Hook > > > Executive Director > > > Institute for Transportation and Development Policy > > > 127 W 26 St, Ste 1002 > > > New York, NY 10001 > > > 1-212-629-8001 > > > www.itdp.org > > > > > > Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide. > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real > > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > > > ================================================================ > > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > -- > Sudhir Gota > Transport Specialist > CAI-Asia Center > Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, > ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City > Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 > Tel: +63-2-395-2843 > Fax: +63-2-395-2846 > Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org > Skype : sudhirgota > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- Herbert G. Fabian Transport Program Manager CAI-Asia Center Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 Tel: +63-2-395-2843 Fax: +63-2-395-2846 Skype: bertfabian http://www.cleanairinitiative.org From mreplogle at me.com Tue Mar 16 12:44:01 2010 From: mreplogle at me.com (Michael Replogle) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 23:44:01 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree with Walter Hook, but would add also the issue of traffic volume. If there are routine breaks in traffic due to upstream signals, and safety refuge islands in the median for pedestrians to cross the street in stages, crossing three lanes can work at grade without a signal. But it very much helps if there are added traffic calming devices, such as large bright lane markings, good street lighting, pedestrian crossing signs, and in some cases raised intersection tables, to which some places (e.g. Dubai) have even begun to add in pavement LED devices that flash to give pedestrians increased visibility and legitimacy. That said, Dutch traffic engineering design standards for years have said that in towns, no more than 2 lanes is appropriate without a refuge for crossing the street in stages. Michael Replogle Global Policy Director and Founder Institute for Transportation and Development Policy 1225 Eye Street NW, Ninth Floor Washington, DC 20005 USA +1.202.534.1604 +1.301.529.0351 mobile mreplogle@itdp.org On Mar 15, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Walter Hook wrote: > we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and under many > contexts. I believe that some basic general principals can be followed but > also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted. People can normally cross two > lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not three or > more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be respected. > even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, but as a rule > of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and three lanes > of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better. > > w. > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader wrote: > >> Dear Carlos >> >> I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken user needs >> analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the >> Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade crossings. I >> believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the at-grade >> crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian volume, >> appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is such >> that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not >> require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take full >> consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being >> placed. >> >> >> Regards >> Colin Brader >> Director >> Integrated Transport Planning Ltd >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader = >> itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org] On >> Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo >> Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42 >> To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport >> Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses >> >> Hi, >> >> The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of >> level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries in >> Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a >> fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and even >> pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" in a >> crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! I've >> been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a specific >> overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they don't >> understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they are >> also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to many >> (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car must just >> >> whizz by). >> >> This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... >> >> Best regards, >> >> Carlos. >> >> >> On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: >>> Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they simply >> just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just >> before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply notices. >> But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines of >> "improving traffic." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Eric Britton >>> To: Cornie Huizenga; >> jane. >>> Cc: Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable >> Transport; >> Kanchan; JasonChang >>> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM >>> Subject: Pedestrian Budget >>> >>> Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. >>> >>> The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., >> walkers, >>> cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can >> arrive >>> unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the >> concept >>> is otherwise billed.) >>> >>> Do I have that right? >>> >>> Kind thanks for informing, >>> >>> Best/Eric Britton >>> >>> PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent truth-seeking >> piece >>> for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage of >>> course. Candidates? >>> >>> >>> >>> Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. >>> >>> World Streets . www.worldstreets.org >>> 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France >>> +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility >>> New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org >>> 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 >>> +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >>> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >>> >>> ================================================================ >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >>> >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> > > > > -- > > Walter Hook > Executive Director > Institute for Transportation and Development Policy > 127 W 26 St, Ste 1002 > New York, NY 10001 > 1-212-629-8001 > www.itdp.org > > Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide. > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 13:12:25 2010 From: patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com (Sujit Patwardhan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:42:25 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: References: <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> <4B9E5EE7.4020307@greenidea.eu> <38e55ad31003151007i1ccfeec7ifae14e5ba82a4116@mail.gmail.com> <493cf1c01003151046n55f0d560w2bf205488752198d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8fba064c1003152112w6b787920sd623b4ec2b0b1f45@mail.gmail.com> Dear Sudhir, That's a super photograph, and may qualify the structure to become one of the "New Seven Wonders of the World" :-) -- Sujit On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 6:25 AM, Sudhir wrote: > I agree with Joachim... if only we can provide the best space ...... > > I have been a very bad road designer in past and used to use many > thumbrules ( which people call as guidelines) when designing the roads. I > have realized over time that people are bound to take shortest and > convenient route many a times irrespective of risks involved. Thus you see > people running across in the road below a overpass. This explains the > non-usage of bad overpass. > In order to even prevent that we have used 1m medians to prevent people > from > thinking at-grade... > > Providing an overpass one needs to marry geometry with landscape....there > are only few good asian examples of this... > > for the bad examples there are thousands... > > see this photo which i consider the best example of our mindset... > > i took this in cebu and was shocked when i saw this "wonder of new world" > > > http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yhbUFBRBDMo/SgeA8NTVOYI/AAAAAAAAAD4/C-42VqEK3_4/s1600-h/Picture+1031.jpg > > cheers > Sudhir > > > On 16 March 2010 01:46, Joachim Bergerhoff < > joachim.bergerhoff@unhabitat-kosovo.org> wrote: > > > Let's consider that, by definition, the street is where the pedestrians > and > > cyclists are. If the street must go over or under a thick stream of > > motorised traffic flow, so be it. What matters is that this "over- or > > under- pass-street" is a real street with all the positive features that > it > > should have from the point of view of non-motorised users: short > > connection, > > ample space, no obstacles for mobility impaired, safety, attractiveness, > > etc. An overpass can provide all this, if it is well designed at macro > and > > micro scale. It will not even be perceived as an overpass any longer, > > because it IS the street and the motor traffic is now underground > relative > > to it. This is of course difficult to achieve in many places, for > physical > > and funding reasons. But I suggest that anybody who considers an over- > or > > under-pass solution should have this vision in mind. > > Yours, > > Joachim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 15 March 2010 18:07, Walter Hook wrote: > > > > > Well, certainly we generally agree that its best to have at grade, but > we > > > tend to live in a second best world. > > > > > > We tend to recommend that brt stations be placed away from junctions > > > because > > > otherwise it slows down the busway because of bus stop/traffic signal > > > interference, as witnessed in Delhi, significantly slowing both bus > > speeds > > > and mixed traffic speeds. Placing the bus stop next to the > intersection > > > has > > > its ideological merits but frequently results in slower speeds and > > capacity > > > not only for motorists and also for bus passengers. > > > > > > This offset makes it more complicated for pedestrians who have to cross > > mid > > > block somewhere. Some BRT roads still have three mixed traffic lanes > > even > > > mid block, though not very many. TransMilenio does. TransJakarta > does, > > > etc. Maybe the road is a national road carrying a lot of long distance > > > truck traffic, a lot of charter buses, minibuses, shared taxis, who > > knows. > > > > > > Sure, the best solution for three or more lanes of mixed traffic per > > > direction might be a slow bump before the mid block ped crossing, and > an > > > elevated crosswalk, and a ped crossing signal, IF the traffic signal > > phase > > > for pedstrians is reasonably short, when there are three lanes or more > of > > > mixed traffic to cross, but many such roads are wide national roads > where > > > there are currently restrictions against slow bumps and other major > > > administrative and political hurdles which you just cannot overcome in > a > > > short time. > > > > > > If you just make people cross at grade but fail to provide a safe > > crossing > > > environment for whatever reason, it is probably better to have a > > pedestrian > > > flyover in a second best world. I've tried to cross mid-block in > Jakarta > > > at > > > an at-grade traffic signal where I had to wait for the signal for a > long > > > time and then NOBODY respected the pedestrian crossing signal anyway, > and > > I > > > can tell you, in that situation I am very happy for the locations where > > > there is a pedestrian overpass. > > > > > > That doesnt mean there should not also be an at grade crossing. i am > > all > > > for giving the pedestrians as many choices as possible. > > > > > > So while it is fairly easy to take an ideological position on the > matter, > > > there may be a lot of local factors and political realities that dont > > give > > > two hoots about a pure ideological position and actually do care about > > > traffic flow, etc. > > > > > > So if we offer an at grade option, would we still be against also > > providing > > > a pedestrian overpass? > > > > > > Pedestrian overpass design matters a lot. many of them are too high, > the > > > gradient is too steep, etc. What if there are escalators or elevators? > > > > > > In some cases they get used by a lot of people who are simply trying to > > > cross the street who have trouble crossing the street anyway, in > > conditions > > > where despite YEARS of advocacy efforts we have simply FAILED to > convince > > > the authorities to improve the surface condition. > > > > > > So, I am not sure a hard line against them is constructive. > > > > > > best > > > walter > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory < > > > edelman@greenidea.eu> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > First - I hope this does not seem and odd question - for the > "experts" > > > > whom Carlos spoke of and others who ask ITDP about it, etc, what is > the > > > > conceptual or philosophical starting point for a "street"? (And I > mean > > > > all spaces for life between buildings, to paraphrase our dear Mr > Gehl). > > > > Is the simple space between buildings the natural street, with > > > > everything else adding both positive (e.g. fast collective public > > > > transport, access for emergency vehicles) and/or negative (e.g. any > > > > private automobiles, or at least those moving over typical cycling > > speed) > > > > > > > > Or is the starting point the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > total-Hell-we-need-a-flyover-dont-we?-children-are-scared-to-cross-BUT-if-vehicles > > > > dont-move-fast-enough-the-same-children-will-somehow-starve road? > > > > > > > > Second - for wider streets with heavy/fast road vehicles - why not a > > > > pedestrian signal which allows the slowest walking people to cross in > > > > one go (no islands), assuming they get to the edge just as the light > > > > turns green for them? Or on any major pedestrian routes, how about > > > > having a "green wave" for > > > > pedestrians with signals based on walking speed along a single route? > I > > > > see no need at all for a pedestrian flyover, even for streets with > BRT > > > > or light rail and close intervals. So I am agreeing with Colin, but > > > > Walter, you seem to have some reason to disagree but I can't figure > out > > > > what it is... > > > > > > > > - Todd (in Europe, on a pretty busy street) > > > > > > > > Walter Hook wrote: > > > > > we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and under > > many > > > > > contexts. I believe that some basic general principals can be > > followed > > > > but > > > > > also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted. People can normally > > cross > > > > two > > > > > lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not > > three > > > or > > > > > more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be > > respected. > > > > > even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, but > as > > a > > > > rule > > > > > of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and > three > > > > lanes > > > > > of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better. > > > > > > > > > > w. > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Dear Carlos > > > > >> > > > > >> I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken user > > > needs > > > > >> analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the > > > > >> Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade > > crossings. > > > I > > > > >> believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the > > > at-grade > > > > >> crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian > > > volume, > > > > >> appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is > > such > > > > >> that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not > > > > >> require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take > full > > > > >> consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being > > > > >> placed. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Regards > > > > >> Colin Brader > > > > >> Director > > > > >> Integrated Transport Planning Ltd > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net@ > list.jca.apc.org > > > > >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader > > > > > > = > > > > >> itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org] On > > > > >> Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo > > > > >> Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42 > > > > >> To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > > > > >> Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses > > > > >> > > > > >> Hi, > > > > >> > > > > >> The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of > > > > >> level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries > in > > > > >> Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as > a > > > > >> fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and > even > > > > >> pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" > in > > a > > > > >> crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! > > > I've > > > > >> been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a > specific > > > > >> overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they > > don't > > > > >> understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they > > are > > > > >> also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to > many > > > > >> (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car > must > > > just > > > > >> > > > > >> whizz by). > > > > >> > > > > >> This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... > > > > >> > > > > >> Best regards, > > > > >> > > > > >> Carlos. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they > > simply > > > > >>> > > > > >> just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just > > > > >> before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply > > > notices. > > > > >> But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines > > of > > > > >> "improving traffic." > > > > >> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> ________________________________ > > > > >>> From: Eric Britton > > > > >>> To: Cornie Huizenga; > > > > >>> > > > > >> jane. > > > > >> > > > > >>> Cc: Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable > > > > >>> > > > > >> Transport; > > > > >> Kanchan; JasonChang > > > > >> > > > > >>> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM > > > > >>> Subject: Pedestrian Budget > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., > > > > >>> > > > > >> walkers, > > > > >> > > > > >>> cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers > can > > > > >>> > > > > >> arrive > > > > >> > > > > >>> unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how > the > > > > >>> > > > > >> concept > > > > >> > > > > >>> is otherwise billed.) > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Do I have that right? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Kind thanks for informing, > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Best/Eric Britton > > > > >>> > > > > >>> PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent > > truth-seeking > > > > >>> > > > > >> piece > > > > >> > > > > >>> for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced > coverage > > > of > > > > >>> course. Candidates? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > > > > >>> 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France > > > > >>> +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype > > > newmobility > > > > >>> New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org > > > > >>> 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > > > > >>> +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > > >>> > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > >>> > > > > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > > >>> > > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the > > > > real > > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > >> > > > > >>> ================================================================ > > > > >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of > people-centred, > > > > >>> > > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > > countries > > > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > > > >> > > > > >>> > > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > > >> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > >> > > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the > > > > real > > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > >> > > > > >> ================================================================ > > > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of > people-centred, > > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > > countries > > > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > > >> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > >> > > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the > > > > real > > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > >> > > > > >> ================================================================ > > > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of > people-centred, > > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > > countries > > > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Todd Edelman > > > > Green Idea Factory > > > > > > > > Urbanstr. 45 > > > > D-10967 Berlin > > > > Germany > > > > > > > > Skype: toddedelman > > > > Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081 > > > > > > > > edelman@greenidea.eu > > > > www.greenidea.eu > > > > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman > > > > > > > > CAR* is over. If you want it. > > > > > > > > "Fort mit der Privatautostadt und was Neues hingebaut!" > > > > - B. Brecht (with slight modification) > > > > > > > > * "Car" is a sub-category of automobile, i.e. one used > inappropriately, > > > > opportunistically or without creativity > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > > real > > > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > > > > > ================================================================ > > > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > countries > > > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Walter Hook > > > Executive Director > > > Institute for Transportation and Development Policy > > > 127 W 26 St, Ste 1002 > > > New York, NY 10001 > > > 1-212-629-8001 > > > www.itdp.org > > > > > > Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide. > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real > > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > > > ================================================================ > > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > -- > Sudhir Gota > Transport Specialist > CAI-Asia Center > Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, > ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City > Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 > Tel: +63-2-395-2843 > Fax: +63-2-395-2846 > Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org > Skype : sudhirgota > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ?..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment to destroy the city? Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel Munich 1970 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sujit Patwardhan patwardhan.sujit@gmail.com sujitjp@gmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India Tel: +91 20 25537955 Cell: +91 98220 26627 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Parisar: www.parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From ranjithsd at sltnet.lk Tue Mar 16 13:15:33 2010 From: ranjithsd at sltnet.lk (Ranjith de silva) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:45:33 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: References: <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> <4B9E5EE7.4020307@greenidea.eu> <38e55ad31003151007i1ccfeec7ifae14e5ba82a4116@mail.gmail.com> <493cf1c01003151046n55f0d560w2bf205488752198d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003001cac4bf$536cfe50$0201a8c0@user8a856d2dac> Dear All, Whoever, designs Pedestrian overpasses and /or pedestrian crossings in the Southern countries should consider the mobility needs of the disabled and the elderly people. They could be able to use them easily and safely. Best regards. Ranjith Ranjith de Silva Regional Coordinator IFRTD Asia & Pacific Sri Lanka -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+ranjithsd=sltnet.lk@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+ranjithsd=sltnet.lk@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Sudhir Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:25 AM To: Joachim Bergerhoff Cc: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses I agree with Joachim... if only we can provide the best space ...... I have been a very bad road designer in past and used to use many thumbrules ( which people call as guidelines) when designing the roads. I have realized over time that people are bound to take shortest and convenient route many a times irrespective of risks involved. Thus you see people running across in the road below a overpass. This explains the non-usage of bad overpass. In order to even prevent that we have used 1m medians to prevent people from thinking at-grade... Providing an overpass one needs to marry geometry with landscape....there are only few good asian examples of this... for the bad examples there are thousands... see this photo which i consider the best example of our mindset... i took this in cebu and was shocked when i saw this "wonder of new world" http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yhbUFBRBDMo/SgeA8NTVOYI/AAAAAAAAAD4/C-42VqEK3_4/s1 600-h/Picture+1031.jpg cheers Sudhir On 16 March 2010 01:46, Joachim Bergerhoff < joachim.bergerhoff@unhabitat-kosovo.org> wrote: > Let's consider that, by definition, the street is where the pedestrians and > cyclists are. If the street must go over or under a thick stream of > motorised traffic flow, so be it. What matters is that this "over- or > under- pass-street" is a real street with all the positive features that it > should have from the point of view of non-motorised users: short > connection, > ample space, no obstacles for mobility impaired, safety, attractiveness, > etc. An overpass can provide all this, if it is well designed at macro and > micro scale. It will not even be perceived as an overpass any longer, > because it IS the street and the motor traffic is now underground relative > to it. This is of course difficult to achieve in many places, for physical > and funding reasons. But I suggest that anybody who considers an over- or > under-pass solution should have this vision in mind. > Yours, > Joachim > > > > > > > > > > > On 15 March 2010 18:07, Walter Hook wrote: > > > Well, certainly we generally agree that its best to have at grade, but we > > tend to live in a second best world. > > > > We tend to recommend that brt stations be placed away from junctions > > because > > otherwise it slows down the busway because of bus stop/traffic signal > > interference, as witnessed in Delhi, significantly slowing both bus > speeds > > and mixed traffic speeds. Placing the bus stop next to the intersection > > has > > its ideological merits but frequently results in slower speeds and > capacity > > not only for motorists and also for bus passengers. > > > > This offset makes it more complicated for pedestrians who have to cross > mid > > block somewhere. Some BRT roads still have three mixed traffic lanes > even > > mid block, though not very many. TransMilenio does. TransJakarta does, > > etc. Maybe the road is a national road carrying a lot of long distance > > truck traffic, a lot of charter buses, minibuses, shared taxis, who > knows. > > > > Sure, the best solution for three or more lanes of mixed traffic per > > direction might be a slow bump before the mid block ped crossing, and an > > elevated crosswalk, and a ped crossing signal, IF the traffic signal > phase > > for pedstrians is reasonably short, when there are three lanes or more of > > mixed traffic to cross, but many such roads are wide national roads where > > there are currently restrictions against slow bumps and other major > > administrative and political hurdles which you just cannot overcome in a > > short time. > > > > If you just make people cross at grade but fail to provide a safe > crossing > > environment for whatever reason, it is probably better to have a > pedestrian > > flyover in a second best world. I've tried to cross mid-block in Jakarta > > at > > an at-grade traffic signal where I had to wait for the signal for a long > > time and then NOBODY respected the pedestrian crossing signal anyway, and > I > > can tell you, in that situation I am very happy for the locations where > > there is a pedestrian overpass. > > > > That doesnt mean there should not also be an at grade crossing. i am > all > > for giving the pedestrians as many choices as possible. > > > > So while it is fairly easy to take an ideological position on the matter, > > there may be a lot of local factors and political realities that dont > give > > two hoots about a pure ideological position and actually do care about > > traffic flow, etc. > > > > So if we offer an at grade option, would we still be against also > providing > > a pedestrian overpass? > > > > Pedestrian overpass design matters a lot. many of them are too high, the > > gradient is too steep, etc. What if there are escalators or elevators? > > > > In some cases they get used by a lot of people who are simply trying to > > cross the street who have trouble crossing the street anyway, in > conditions > > where despite YEARS of advocacy efforts we have simply FAILED to convince > > the authorities to improve the surface condition. > > > > So, I am not sure a hard line against them is constructive. > > > > best > > walter > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory < > > edelman@greenidea.eu> wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > First - I hope this does not seem and odd question - for the "experts" > > > whom Carlos spoke of and others who ask ITDP about it, etc, what is the > > > conceptual or philosophical starting point for a "street"? (And I mean > > > all spaces for life between buildings, to paraphrase our dear Mr Gehl). > > > Is the simple space between buildings the natural street, with > > > everything else adding both positive (e.g. fast collective public > > > transport, access for emergency vehicles) and/or negative (e.g. any > > > private automobiles, or at least those moving over typical cycling > speed) > > > > > > Or is the starting point the > > > > > > > > > total-Hell-we-need-a-flyover-dont-we?-children-are-scared-to-cross-BUT-if-ve hicles > > > dont-move-fast-enough-the-same-children-will-somehow-starve road? > > > > > > Second - for wider streets with heavy/fast road vehicles - why not a > > > pedestrian signal which allows the slowest walking people to cross in > > > one go (no islands), assuming they get to the edge just as the light > > > turns green for them? Or on any major pedestrian routes, how about > > > having a "green wave" for > > > pedestrians with signals based on walking speed along a single route? I > > > see no need at all for a pedestrian flyover, even for streets with BRT > > > or light rail and close intervals. So I am agreeing with Colin, but > > > Walter, you seem to have some reason to disagree but I can't figure out > > > what it is... > > > > > > - Todd (in Europe, on a pretty busy street) > > > > > > Walter Hook wrote: > > > > we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and under > many > > > > contexts. I believe that some basic general principals can be > followed > > > but > > > > also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted. People can normally > cross > > > two > > > > lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not > three > > or > > > > more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be > respected. > > > > even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, but as > a > > > rule > > > > of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and three > > > lanes > > > > of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better. > > > > > > > > w. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Dear Carlos > > > >> > > > >> I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken user > > needs > > > >> analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the > > > >> Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade > crossings. > > I > > > >> believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the > > at-grade > > > >> crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian > > volume, > > > >> appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is > such > > > >> that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not > > > >> require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take full > > > >> consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being > > > >> placed. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Regards > > > >> Colin Brader > > > >> Director > > > >> Integrated Transport Planning Ltd > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org > > > >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader > > > = > > > >> itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org] On > > > >> Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo > > > >> Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42 > > > >> To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > > > >> Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses > > > >> > > > >> Hi, > > > >> > > > >> The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of > > > >> level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries in > > > >> Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a > > > >> fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and even > > > >> pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" in > a > > > >> crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! > > I've > > > >> been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a specific > > > >> overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they > don't > > > >> understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they > are > > > >> also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to many > > > >> (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car must > > just > > > >> > > > >> whizz by). > > > >> > > > >> This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... > > > >> > > > >> Best regards, > > > >> > > > >> Carlos. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they > simply > > > >>> > > > >> just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just > > > >> before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply > > notices. > > > >> But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines > of > > > >> "improving traffic." > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> ________________________________ > > > >>> From: Eric Britton > > > >>> To: Cornie Huizenga; > > > >>> > > > >> jane. > > > >> > > > >>> Cc: Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable > > > >>> > > > >> Transport; > > > >> Kanchan; JasonChang > > > >> > > > >>> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM > > > >>> Subject: Pedestrian Budget > > > >>> > > > >>> Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. > > > >>> > > > >>> The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., > > > >>> > > > >> walkers, > > > >> > > > >>> cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can > > > >>> > > > >> arrive > > > >> > > > >>> unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the > > > >>> > > > >> concept > > > >> > > > >>> is otherwise billed.) > > > >>> > > > >>> Do I have that right? > > > >>> > > > >>> Kind thanks for informing, > > > >>> > > > >>> Best/Eric Britton > > > >>> > > > >>> PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent > truth-seeking > > > >>> > > > >> piece > > > >> > > > >>> for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage > > of > > > >>> course. Candidates? > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > > >>> > > > >>> World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > > > >>> 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France > > > >>> +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype > > newmobility > > > >>> New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org > > > >>> 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > > > >>> +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > >>> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > >>> > > > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > >>> > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > > > real > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > >> > > > >>> ================================================================ > > > >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > > >>> > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > countries > > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > >> > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > > > real > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > >> > > > >> ================================================================ > > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > countries > > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > >> > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > > > real > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > >> > > > >> ================================================================ > > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > countries > > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Todd Edelman > > > Green Idea Factory > > > > > > Urbanstr. 45 > > > D-10967 Berlin > > > Germany > > > > > > Skype: toddedelman > > > Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081 > > > > > > edelman@greenidea.eu > > > www.greenidea.eu > > > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman > > > > > > CAR* is over. If you want it. > > > > > > "Fort mit der Privatautostadt und was Neues hingebaut!" > > > - B. Brecht (with slight modification) > > > > > > * "Car" is a sub-category of automobile, i.e. one used inappropriately, > > > opportunistically or without creativity > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real > > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > > > ================================================================ > > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Walter Hook > > Executive Director > > Institute for Transportation and Development Policy > > 127 W 26 St, Ste 1002 > > New York, NY 10001 > > 1-212-629-8001 > > www.itdp.org > > > > Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- Sudhir Gota Transport Specialist CAI-Asia Center Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 Tel: +63-2-395-2843 Fax: +63-2-395-2846 Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org Skype : sudhirgota -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From simon.bishop at dimts.in Tue Mar 16 14:51:03 2010 From: simon.bishop at dimts.in (Simon Bishop) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:21:03 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <247EE4DD2AD33940B402771AC8C2CDFE3AED8E7DDF@dimts-exch.dimts.org> Should mention value of time and effort, something absolutely sacrosanct to any analysis of VEHICULAR traffic but usually absent when considering pedestrians or cyclists. When you consider the 'whole journey, door to door' of a pedestrian/public transport user you will often find that the journey time savings from establishing BRT or Metro infrastructure can be reduced significantly when a crossing is altered from being at grade to an FOB. In Delhi, like much of the world, the summer temperatures are punishing, trees are no longer planted as part of the road network to offer shade, and wannabee car users have to be given some scraps if they are to be encouraged to keep using public transit. This is especially the case given that the bus already has a significant time/comfort disadvantage over the car when considering door to door journeys, and often the bicycle too for that matter, for distances up to five miles. At grade crossings provide a decent time and comfort saving compared to FOBs. The FOB also adds unnecessarily amounts effort in climbing, especially for old people and the differently-abled. Anjlee Aggarwal of NGO Samarthyam calculates this figure at 75% of the population for Delhi when you take into account everyone from women with heavy shopping to asthmatics, etc, etc. Let's not kid ourselves either into thinking that those FOBs with escalators/lifts will be working ALL the time (most developing countries suffer from frequent power cuts for one and public agency maintenance is a serious issue), or that we could possibly provide enough lifts and escalator FOBs to make a city permeable). Subways are frequently closed after 11pm for 'security reasons' just when the drunken drivers are out and about and who likes being stuck in an escalator with someone using it as a urinal? Transport for London recently found a benefit cost ratio of 7.6 to 1 for CLOSING subways because of their overall dis-benefits. The difference between FOBs and ped subways isn't all that much. The FOB is also a huge deterrent to cyclists as I can vouch for personally having to schlep my bicycle up and down subways and FOBs in Delhi. No way to encourage public transport, walking or cycling. If driver habits are an obstacle they can be changed if there is a will to do so. On the Delhi BRT, marshals stand at crossings to ensure that pedestrians can cross and believe it or not, when I visit I see cars stopping at red lights now for pedestrians - the message is getting through with no pedestrian accidents over the last year of the BRT. Most drivers consider it 'inconvenient' to get mixed up in a road accident if they can avoid it. The will to change as evinced in the case of Taipei where FOBs have not been constructed after 1995 might hurry when, in megacities with 20 million or so people, gridlock arrives because everyone has been 'encouraged' to buy a car or motorcycle to avoid those long trips on FOBs and walking around flyovers and round guardrail to get to public transit or make a local journey. Would we have failed in our job as planners tho' if it has to reach this stage before any action is taken? Keep FOBs on motorways please, which should have no part in a densely populated city. -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+simon.bishop=dimts.in@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+simon.bishop=dimts.in@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Michael Replogle Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:14 AM To: Walter Hook; Colin Brader; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses I agree with Walter Hook, but would add also the issue of traffic volume. If there are routine breaks in traffic due to upstream signals, and safety refuge islands in the median for pedestrians to cross the street in stages, crossing three lanes can work at grade without a signal. But it very much helps if there are added traffic calming devices, such as large bright lane markings, good street lighting, pedestrian crossing signs, and in some cases raised intersection tables, to which some places (e.g. Dubai) have even begun to add in pavement LED devices that flash to give pedestrians increased visibility and legitimacy. That said, Dutch traffic engineering design standards for years have said that in towns, no more than 2 lanes is appropriate without a refuge for crossing the street in stages. Michael Replogle Global Policy Director and Founder Institute for Transportation and Development Policy 1225 Eye Street NW, Ninth Floor Washington, DC 20005 USA +1.202.534.1604 +1.301.529.0351 mobile mreplogle@itdp.org On Mar 15, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Walter Hook wrote: > we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and under many > contexts. I believe that some basic general principals can be followed but > also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted. People can normally cross two > lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not three or > more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be respected. > even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, but as a rule > of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and three lanes > of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better. > > w. > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader wrote: > >> Dear Carlos >> >> I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken user needs >> analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the >> Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade crossings. I >> believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the at-grade >> crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian volume, >> appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is such >> that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not >> require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take full >> consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being >> placed. >> >> >> Regards >> Colin Brader >> Director >> Integrated Transport Planning Ltd >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader = >> itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org] On >> Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo >> Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42 >> To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport >> Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses >> >> Hi, >> >> The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of >> level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries in >> Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a >> fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and even >> pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" in a >> crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! I've >> been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a specific >> overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they don't >> understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they are >> also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to many >> (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car must just >> >> whizz by). >> >> This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... >> >> Best regards, >> >> Carlos. >> >> >> On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: >>> Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they simply >> just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just >> before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply notices. >> But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines of >> "improving traffic." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Eric Britton >>> To: Cornie Huizenga; >> jane. >>> Cc: Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable >> Transport; >> Kanchan; JasonChang >>> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM >>> Subject: Pedestrian Budget >>> >>> Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. >>> >>> The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., >> walkers, >>> cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can >> arrive >>> unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the >> concept >>> is otherwise billed.) >>> >>> Do I have that right? >>> >>> Kind thanks for informing, >>> >>> Best/Eric Britton >>> >>> PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent truth-seeking >> piece >>> for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage of >>> course. Candidates? >>> >>> >>> >>> Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. >>> >>> World Streets . www.worldstreets.org >>> 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France >>> +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility >>> New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org >>> 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 >>> +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >>> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >>> >>> ================================================================ >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >>> >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> > > > > -- > > Walter Hook > Executive Director > Institute for Transportation and Development Policy > 127 W 26 St, Ste 1002 > New York, NY 10001 > 1-212-629-8001 > www.itdp.org > > Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide. > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From krc12353 at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 13:08:00 2010 From: krc12353 at gmail.com (Karthik Rao Cavale) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 00:08:00 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1effb6e51003142108w7c8193dcg4498ac573c2939b3@mail.gmail.com> I wrote this article for the WRI blog. http://mumbai.thecityfix.com/creating-streets-for-walkers-and-hawkers/ karthik On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Carlosfelipe Pardo wrote: > Hi, > > The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of > level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries in > Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a > fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and even > pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" in a > crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! I've > been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a specific > overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they don't > understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they are > also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to many > (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car must just > whizz by). > > This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... > > Best regards, > > Carlos. > > > On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: > > Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they simply > just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just before > construction started, but as I recall, they were simply notices. But I > suppose the justification would be something along the lines of "improving > traffic." > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Eric Britton > > To: Cornie Huizenga; jane.< > voodikon@yahoo.com> > > Cc: Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport< > sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org>; Kanchan; > JasonChang > > Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM > > Subject: Pedestrian Budget > > > > Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. > > > > The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., walkers, > > cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can > arrive > > unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the > concept > > is otherwise billed.) > > > > Do I have that right? > > > > Kind thanks for informing, > > > > Best/Eric Britton > > > > PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent truth-seeking > piece > > for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage of > > course. Candidates? > > > > > > > > Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > > > World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > > 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France > > +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility > > New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org > > 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > > +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > From voodikon at yahoo.com Tue Mar 16 16:30:52 2010 From: voodikon at yahoo.com (jane.) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: <247EE4DD2AD33940B402771AC8C2CDFE3AED8E7DDF@dimts-exch.dimts.org> References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> <247EE4DD2AD33940B402771AC8C2CDFE3AED8E7DDF@dimts-exch.dimts.org> Message-ID: <758466.25649.qm@web39503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Before we had the flyovers (known so nicely in Chinese as "sky bridges"), we had traffic guards, armed with whistles and vests, up to eight at an intersection, to patrol the traffic, both bike, pedestrian, and vehicular. Only at large intersections did anybody really pay them any mind; some guards were employed to stand at points where pedestrians frequently crossed illegally, and those guards were entirely ineffective. I always had the impression that they were temporary fixes until the sky bridges were put up; and, indeed, even after the sky bridges were open for use, people still adamantly ran across the road at grade (including across meridians and through hedges) until finally a meter-high metal fence was put up all along the meridian. Jane ________________________________ From: Simon Bishop To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Sent: Tue, March 16, 2010 1:51:03 PM Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses Should mention value of time and effort, something absolutely sacrosanct to any analysis of VEHICULAR traffic but usually absent when considering pedestrians or cyclists. When you consider the 'whole journey, door to door' of a pedestrian/public transport user you will often find that the journey time savings from establishing BRT or Metro infrastructure can be reduced significantly when a crossing is altered from being at grade to an FOB. In Delhi, like much of the world, the summer temperatures are punishing, trees are no longer planted as part of the road network to offer shade, and wannabee car users have to be given some scraps if they are to be encouraged to keep using public transit. This is especially the case given that the bus already has a significant time/comfort disadvantage over the car when considering door to door journeys, and often the bicycle too for that matter, for distances up to five miles. At grade crossings provide a decent time and comfort saving compared to FOBs. The FOB also adds unnecessarily amounts effort in climbing, especially for old people and the differently-abled. Anjlee Aggarwal of NGO Samarthyam calculates this figure at 75% of the population for Delhi when you take into account everyone from women with heavy shopping to asthmatics, etc, etc. Let's not kid ourselves either into thinking that those FOBs with escalators/lifts will be working ALL the time (most developing countries suffer from frequent power cuts for one and public agency maintenance is a serious issue), or that we could possibly provide enough lifts and escalator FOBs to make a city permeable). Subways are frequently closed after 11pm for 'security reasons' just when the drunken drivers are out and about and who likes being stuck in an escalator with someone using it as a urinal? Transport for London recently found a benefit cost ratio of 7.6 to 1 for CLOSING subways because of their overall dis-benefits. The difference between FOBs and ped subways isn't all that much. The FOB is also a huge deterrent to cyclists as I can vouch for personally having to schlep my bicycle up and down subways and FOBs in Delhi. No way to encourage public transport, walking or cycling. If driver habits are an obstacle they can be changed if there is a will to do so. On the Delhi BRT, marshals stand at crossings to ensure that pedestrians can cross and believe it or not, when I visit I see cars stopping at red lights now for pedestrians - the message is getting through with no pedestrian accidents over the last year of the BRT. Most drivers consider it 'inconvenient' to get mixed up in a road accident if they can avoid it. The will to change as evinced in the case of Taipei where FOBs have not been constructed after 1995 might hurry when, in megacities with 20 million or so people, gridlock arrives because everyone has been 'encouraged' to buy a car or motorcycle to avoid those long trips on FOBs and walking around flyovers and round guardrail to get to public transit or make a local journey. Would we have failed in our job as planners tho' if it has to reach this stage before any action is taken? Keep FOBs on motorways please, which should have no part in a densely populated city. -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+simon.bishop=dimts.in@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+simon.bishop=dimts.in@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Michael Replogle Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:14 AM To: Walter Hook; Colin Brader; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses I agree with Walter Hook, but would add also the issue of traffic volume. If there are routine breaks in traffic due to upstream signals, and safety refuge islands in the median for pedestrians to cross the street in stages, crossing three lanes can work at grade without a signal. But it very much helps if there are added traffic calming devices, such as large bright lane markings, good street lighting, pedestrian crossing signs, and in some cases raised intersection tables, to which some places (e.g. Dubai) have even begun to add in pavement LED devices that flash to give pedestrians increased visibility and legitimacy. That said, Dutch traffic engineering design standards for years have said that in towns, no more than 2 lanes is appropriate without a refuge for crossing the street in stages. Michael Replogle Global Policy Director and Founder Institute for Transportation and Development Policy 1225 Eye Street NW, Ninth Floor Washington, DC 20005 USA +1.202.534.1604 +1.301.529.0351 mobile mreplogle@itdp.org On Mar 15, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Walter Hook wrote: > we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and under many > contexts. I believe that some basic general principals can be followed but > also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted. People can normally cross two > lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not three or > more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be respected. > even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, but as a rule > of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and three lanes > of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better. > > w. > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader wrote: > >> Dear Carlos >> >> I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken user needs >> analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the >> Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade crossings. I >> believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the at-grade >> crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian volume, >> appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is such >> that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not >> require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take full >> consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being >> placed. >> >> >> Regards >> Colin Brader >> Director >> Integrated Transport Planning Ltd >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader = >> itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org] On >> Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo >> Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42 >> To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport >> Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses >> >> Hi, >> >> The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of >> level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries in >> Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a >> fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and even >> pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" in a >> crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! I've >> been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a specific >> overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they don't >> understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they are >> also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to many >> (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car must just >> >> whizz by). >> >> This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... >> >> Best regards, >> >> Carlos. >> >> >> On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: >>> Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they simply >> just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just >> before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply notices. >> But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines of >> "improving traffic." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Eric Britton >>> To: Cornie Huizenga; >> jane. >>> Cc: Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable >> Transport; >> Kanchan; JasonChang >>> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM >>> Subject: Pedestrian Budget >>> >>> Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. >>> >>> The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., >> walkers, >>> cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can >> arrive >>> unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the >> concept >>> is otherwise billed.) >>> >>> Do I have that right? >>> >>> Kind thanks for informing, >>> >>> Best/Eric Britton >>> >>> PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent truth-seeking >> piece >>> for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage of >>> course. Candidates? >>> >>> >>> >>> Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. >>> >>> World Streets . www.worldstreets.org >>> 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France >>> +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility >>> New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org >>> 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 >>> +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >>> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >>> >>> ================================================================ >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >>> >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> > > > > -- > > Walter Hook > Executive Director > Institute for Transportation and Development Policy > 127 W 26 St, Ste 1002 > New York, NY 10001 > 1-212-629-8001 > www.itdp.org > > Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide. > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From simon.bishop at dimts.in Tue Mar 16 16:43:07 2010 From: simon.bishop at dimts.in (Simon Bishop) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:13:07 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: <758466.25649.qm@web39503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> <247EE4DD2AD33940B402771AC8C2CDFE3AED8E7DDF@dimts-exch.dimts.org> <758466.25649.qm@web39503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <247EE4DD2AD33940B402771AC8C2CDFE3AED8E7E82@dimts-exch.dimts.org> It sounds like you're on the right track now, but perhaps some pedestrians are quite desperate to cross at grade if they have to put up a meter-high metal fence to deter them? Dear Jane and Everyone Else, A recent survey in Delhi found that only 10 per cent of those over 46 use FOBs if they have a choice not to. Quite strangely the article's spin was that this was down to the fact that they were 'old codgers' who couldn't catch up with the 'modern world' unlike their young counterparts. I thought this was ironic since the modern world that I'm from (London) is busily getting rid of FOBs and pedestrian subways as my quote from Transport for London's Cost Benefit Ratio Study showed (7.6:1 benefit in removing subways). More likely that older people find the physical effort of scaling these bridges too much to bear and the 'modern world' knows that they discourage use of a socially inclusive public transport system. Simon From: jane. [mailto:voodikon@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:01 PM To: Simon Bishop; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses Before we had the flyovers (known so nicely in Chinese as "sky bridges"), we had traffic guards, armed with whistles and vests, up to eight at an intersection, to patrol the traffic, both bike, pedestrian, and vehicular. Only at large intersections did anybody really pay them any mind; some guards were employed to stand at points where pedestrians frequently crossed illegally, and those guards were entirely ineffective. I always had the impression that they were temporary fixes until the sky bridges were put up; and, indeed, even after the sky bridges were open for use, people still adamantly ran across the road at grade (including across meridians and through hedges) until finally a meter-high metal fence was put up all along the meridian. Jane ________________________________ From: Simon Bishop To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Sent: Tue, March 16, 2010 1:51:03 PM Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses Should mention value of time and effort, something absolutely sacrosanct to any analysis of VEHICULAR traffic but usually absent when considering pedestrians or cyclists. When you consider the 'whole journey, door to door' of a pedestrian/public transport user you will often find that the journey time savings from establishing BRT or Metro infrastructure can be reduced significantly when a crossing is altered from being at grade to an FOB. In Delhi, like much of the world, the summer temperatures are punishing, trees are no longer planted as part of the road network to offer shade, and wannabee car users have to be given some scraps if they are to be encouraged to keep using public transit. This is especially the case given that the bus already has a significant time/comfort disadvantage over the car when considering door to door journeys, and often the bicycle too for that matter, for distances up to five miles. At grade crossings provide a decent time and comfort saving compared to FOBs. The FOB also adds unnecessarily amounts effort in climbing, especially for old people and the differently-abled. Anjlee Aggarwal of NGO Samarthyam calculates this figure at 75% of the population for Delhi when you take into account everyone from women with heavy shopping to asthmatics, etc, etc. Let's not kid ourselves either into thinking that those FOBs with escalators/lifts will be working ALL the time (most developing countries suffer from frequent power cuts for one and public agency maintenance is a serious issue), or that we could possibly provide enough lifts and escalator FOBs to make a city permeable). Subways are frequently closed after 11pm for 'security reasons' just when the drunken drivers are out and about and who likes being stuck in an escalator with someone using it as a urinal? Transport for London recently found a benefit cost ratio of 7.6 to 1 for CLOSING subways because of their overall dis-benefits. The difference between FOBs and ped subways isn't all that much. The FOB is also a huge deterrent to cyclists as I can vouch for personally having to schlep my bicycle up and down subways and FOBs in Delhi. No way to encourage public transport, walking or cycling. If driver habits are an obstacle they can be changed if there is a will to do so. On the Delhi BRT, marshals stand at crossings to ensure that pedestrians can cross and believe it or not, when I visit I see cars stopping at red lights now for pedestrians - the message is getting through with no pedestrian accidents over the last year of the BRT. Most drivers consider it 'inconvenient' to get mixed up in a road accident if they can avoid it. The will to change as evinced in the case of Taipei where FOBs have not been constructed after 1995 might hurry when, in megacities with 20 million or so people, gridlock arrives because everyone has been 'encouraged' to buy a car or motorcycle to avoid those long trips on FOBs and walking around flyovers and round guardrail to get to public transit or make a local journey. Would we have failed in our job as planners tho' if it has to reach this stage before any action is taken? Keep FOBs on motorways please, which should have no part in a densely populated city. -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+simon.bishop=dimts.in@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+simon.bishop=dimts.in@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Michael Replogle Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:14 AM To: Walter Hook; Colin Brader; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses I agree with Walter Hook, but would add also the issue of traffic volume. If there are routine breaks in traffic due to upstream signals, and safety refuge islands in the median for pedestrians to cross the street in stages, crossing three lanes can work at grade without a signal. But it very much helps if there are added traffic calming devices, such as large bright lane markings, good street lighting, pedestrian crossing signs, and in some cases raised intersection tables, to which some places (e.g. Dubai) have even begun to add in pavement LED devices that flash to give pedestrians increased visibility and legitimacy. That said, Dutch traffic engineering design standards for years have said that in towns, no more than 2 lanes is appropriate without a refuge for crossing the street in stages. Michael Replogle Global Policy Director and Founder Institute for Transportation and Development Policy 1225 Eye Street NW, Ninth Floor Washington, DC 20005 USA +1.202.534.1604 +1.301.529.0351 mobile mreplogle@itdp.org On Mar 15, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Walter Hook wrote: > we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and under many > contexts. I believe that some basic general principals can be followed but > also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted. People can normally cross two > lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not three or > more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be respected. > even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, but as a rule > of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and three lanes > of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better. > > w. > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader > wrote: > >> Dear Carlos >> >> I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken user needs >> analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the >> Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade crossings. I >> believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the at-grade >> crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian volume, >> appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is such >> that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not >> require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take full >> consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being >> placed. >> >> >> Regards >> Colin Brader >> Director >> Integrated Transport Planning Ltd >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader = >> itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org] On >> Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo >> Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42 >> To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport >> Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses >> >> Hi, >> >> The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of >> level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries in >> Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a >> fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and even >> pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" in a >> crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! I've >> been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a specific >> overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they don't >> understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they are >> also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to many >> (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car must just >> >> whizz by). >> >> This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... >> >> Best regards, >> >> Carlos. >> >> >> On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: >>> Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they simply >> just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just >> before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply notices. >> But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines of >> "improving traffic." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Eric Britton> >>> To: Cornie Huizenga>; >> jane.> >>> Cc: Salil Bijur>; Global 'South' Sustainable >> Transport>; >> Kanchan>; JasonChang> >>> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM >>> Subject: Pedestrian Budget >>> >>> Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. >>> >>> The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., >> walkers, >>> cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can >> arrive >>> unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the >> concept >>> is otherwise billed.) >>> >>> Do I have that right? >>> >>> Kind thanks for informing, >>> >>> Best/Eric Britton >>> >>> PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent truth-seeking >> piece >>> for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage of >>> course. Candidates? >>> >>> >>> >>> Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. >>> >>> World Streets . www.worldstreets.org >>> 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France >>> +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility >>> New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org >>> 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 >>> +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >>> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >>> >>> ================================================================ >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >>> >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> > > > > -- > > Walter Hook > Executive Director > Institute for Transportation and Development Policy > 127 W 26 St, Ste 1002 > New York, NY 10001 > 1-212-629-8001 > www.itdp.org > > Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide. > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Tue Mar 16 16:58:59 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:58:59 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: <8fba064c1003151144g397c5d4eoa1a1331571f75eb6@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <8fba064c1003151144g397c5d4eoa1a1331571f75eb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00cc01cac4de$8b3b17d0$a1b14770$@britton@ecoplan.org> When it comes to BRT and safe pedestrian crossings, it might be useful for you to have a quick look at the Paris experience. One of the interesting things about the 17 or so lines which are now given over to the Parisian version of BRT, which is called Mobilien, is that instead of a "one size fits all" approach the technicians here have decided to modulate many aspects of the system with reference to the specifics of the geometry and other characteristics of the streets and areas being served. What I can offer you on this busy Tuesday morning is not a complete exegesis of how all this works here -sorry no time --- but I can point you to a short film made by our friends from Streetfilms in New York during the course of the visit to Paris shopping around for ideas that might have some eventual usefulness in the American context. You can find their three-minute introductory film clip at http://www.streetfilms.org/mobilien/ Of course Paris is not Mumbai and while there are enormous differences in terms of size and density and variety of traffic and other street users, it is still perhaps not uninteresting to observe a couple things about the approach they have taken. First, you can see from the film the very careful treatment of intersections, the excellent street markings, the placement of the signals and the stops, and the use of traffic islands so that it is possible for pedestrians to cross larger streets in stages. Another characteristic of Paris traffic is that the street system is very dense, which means that in there are relatively very few long stretches without intersecting streets and signals. The Mobilien system and the engineers behind it have done a first rate job of putting these pieces together for this particular city and the thoughtful words of the engineer in charge of the system are I believe worthy of reflection. Eric Britton World Streets . www.worldstreets.org Open Edition: www.open.worldstreets.org 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton From patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:29:13 2010 From: patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com (Sujit Patwardhan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:59:13 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: <7441080419703791111@unknownmsgid> References: <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <8fba064c1003151144g397c5d4eoa1a1331571f75eb6@mail.gmail.com> <7441080419703791111@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <8fba064c1003160129r6b3f59f2q4fd3a95945dfef75@mail.gmail.com> 16 March 2010 Thanks Eric, I have seen a few of these (short films) on Mobilien and will catch up with the rest through the links you have kindly given. And I agree that if done properly, the street design itself should offer considerable assistance to the road users. Warm regards, -- Sujit On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Eric Britton wrote: > When it comes to BRT and safe pedestrian crossings, it might be useful for > you to have a quick look at the Paris experience. > > One of the interesting things about the 17 or so lines which are now given > over to the Parisian version of BRT, which is called Mobilien, is that > instead of a "one size fits all" approach the technicians here have decided > to modulate many aspects of the system with reference to the specifics of > the geometry and other characteristics of the streets and areas being > served. > > What I can offer you on this busy Tuesday morning is not a complete > exegesis > of how all this works here -sorry no time --- but I can point you to a > short film made by our friends from Streetfilms in New York during the > course of the visit to Paris shopping around for ideas that might have some > eventual usefulness in the American context. You can find their > three-minute introductory film clip at > http://www.streetfilms.org/mobilien/ > > Of course Paris is not Mumbai and while there are enormous differences in > terms of size and density and variety of traffic and other street users, it > is still perhaps not uninteresting to observe a couple things about the > approach they have taken. First, you can see from the film the very > careful > treatment of intersections, the excellent street markings, the placement of > the signals and the stops, and the use of traffic islands so that it is > possible for pedestrians to cross larger streets in stages. Another > characteristic of Paris traffic is that the street system is very dense, > which means that in there are relatively very few long stretches without > intersecting streets and signals. The Mobilien system and the engineers > behind it have done a first rate job of putting these pieces together for > this particular city and the thoughtful words of the engineer in charge of > the system are I believe worthy of reflection. > > Eric Britton > > > World Streets . www.worldstreets.org Open Edition: > www.open.worldstreets.org > 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France > +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility > New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org > 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ?..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment to destroy the city? Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel Munich 1970 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sujit Patwardhan patwardhan.sujit@gmail.com sujitjp@gmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India Tel: +91 20 25537955 Cell: +91 98220 26627 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Parisar: www.parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From edelman at greenidea.eu Tue Mar 16 18:19:26 2010 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:19:26 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: <38e55ad31003151007i1ccfeec7ifae14e5ba82a4116@mail.gmail.com> References: <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> <4B9E5EE7.4020307@greenidea.eu> <38e55ad31003151007i1ccfeec7ifae14e5ba82a4116@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9F4D1E.8090101@greenidea.eu> Hi Walter and everyone, Walter Hook wrote: > Well, certainly we generally agree that its best to have at grade, but > we tend to live in a second best world. CERTAINLY, or even third best! > > We tend to recommend that brt stations be placed away from junctions > because otherwise it slows down the busway because of bus stop/traffic > signal interference, as witnessed in Delhi, significantly slowing both > bus speeds and mixed traffic speeds. Placing the bus stop next to the > intersection has its ideological merits but frequently results in > slower speeds and capacity not only for motorists and also for bus > passengers. > > This offset makes it more complicated for pedestrians who have to > cross mid block somewhere. Some BRT roads still have three mixed > traffic lanes even mid block, though not very many. TransMilenio > does. TransJakarta does, etc. Maybe the road is a national road > carrying a lot of long distance truck traffic, a lot of charter buses, > minibuses, shared taxis, who knows. > > Sure, the best solution for three or more lanes of mixed traffic per > direction might be a slow bump before the mid block ped crossing, and > an elevated crosswalk, and a ped crossing signal, IF the traffic > signal phase for pedstrians is reasonably short, when there are three > lanes or more of mixed traffic to cross, but many such roads are wide > national roads where there are currently restrictions against slow > bumps and other major administrative and political hurdles which you > just cannot overcome in a short time. YES, and I should have clear that narrowing a street would come first -- and also that I thought we were talking about more central areas. Sujit refers to streets which have a "historical reason" for being wide - and it would seem that on these an overpass would be aesthetically challenging at least. Based on what Joachim says the crossings on these would ideally be a totally new street-bridge with ends perhaps a block back on both sides. Though I think a more common "new mobility" example is the cycling-oriented underpasses in Dutch suburbs or less dense areas. Indeed, these underpasses - and the pedestrian green wave I suggest - facilitate fast non-motorised traffic and are actually better if grade-separated, providing that there is nothing at... road level of interest OR if on a street both options are possible. > > If you just make people cross at grade but fail to provide a safe > crossing environment for whatever reason, it is probably better to > have a pedestrian flyover in a second best world. I've tried to cross > mid-block in Jakarta at an at-grade traffic signal where I had to wait > for the signal for a long time and then NOBODY respected the > pedestrian crossing signal anyway, and I can tell you, in that > situation I am very happy for the locations where there is a > pedestrian overpass. SURE, and then you can also hang fake drivers from the overpass to show what happens to drivers who disobey! > > That doesnt mean there should not also be an at grade crossing. i am > all for giving the pedestrians as many choices as possible. CURIOUS how often do local authorities agree to pay for both > > So while it is fairly easy to take an ideological position on the > matter, there may be a lot of local factors and political realities > that dont give two hoots about a pure ideological position and > actually do care about traffic flow, etc. BUT - suggest I from my armchair - "(motorised) traffic flow" is a (pure) idealogical position! > > So if we offer an at grade option, would we still be against also > providing a pedestrian overpass? > > Pedestrian overpass design matters a lot. many of them are too high, > the gradient is too steep, etc. What if there are escalators or > elevators? > > In some cases they get used by a lot of people who are simply trying > to cross the street who have trouble crossing the street anyway, in > conditions where despite YEARS of advocacy efforts we have simply > FAILED to convince the authorities to improve the surface condition. THANKS for your hard work. > > So, I am not sure a hard line against them is constructive. > > best > walter HOPE I was able to clarify some points in my earlier email. - T > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory > > wrote: > > Hi all, > > First - I hope this does not seem and odd question - for the "experts" > whom Carlos spoke of and others who ask ITDP about it, etc, what > is the > conceptual or philosophical starting point for a "street"? (And I mean > all spaces for life between buildings, to paraphrase our dear Mr > Gehl). > Is the simple space between buildings the natural street, with > everything else adding both positive (e.g. fast collective public > transport, access for emergency vehicles) and/or negative (e.g. any > private automobiles, or at least those moving over typical cycling > speed) > > Or is the starting point the > total-Hell-we-need-a-flyover-dont-we?-children-are-scared-to-cross-BUT-if-vehicles > dont-move-fast-enough-the-same-children-will-somehow-starve road? > > Second - for wider streets with heavy/fast road vehicles - why not a > pedestrian signal which allows the slowest walking people to cross in > one go (no islands), assuming they get to the edge just as the light > turns green for them? Or on any major pedestrian routes, how about > having a "green wave" for > pedestrians with signals based on walking speed along a single > route? I > see no need at all for a pedestrian flyover, even for streets with BRT > or light rail and close intervals. So I am agreeing with Colin, but > Walter, you seem to have some reason to disagree but I can't > figure out > what it is... > > - Todd (in Europe, on a pretty busy street) > > Walter Hook wrote: > > we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and > under many > > contexts. I believe that some basic general principals can be > followed but > > also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted. People can > normally cross two > > lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not > three or > > more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be > respected. > > even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, > but as a rule > > of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and > three lanes > > of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better. > > > > w. > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader > > wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Carlos > >> > >> I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken > user needs > >> analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the > >> Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade > crossings. I > >> believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the > at-grade > >> crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted > pedestrian volume, > >> appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality > is such > >> that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not > >> require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take full > >> consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being > >> placed. > >> > >> > >> Regards > >> Colin Brader > >> Director > >> Integrated Transport Planning Ltd > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net > @list.jca.apc.org > >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader > > = > >> itpworld.net @list.jca.apc.org > ] On > >> Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo > >> Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42 > >> To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > >> Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of > >> level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing > countries in > >> Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a > >> fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and > even > >> pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for > "safety" in a > >> crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate > crossing! I've > >> been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a > specific > >> overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they > don't > >> understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that > they are > >> also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to > many > >> (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car > must just > >> > >> whizz by). > >> > >> This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> Carlos. > >> > >> > >> On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: > >> > >>> Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they > simply > >>> > >> just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just > >> before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply > notices. > >> But I suppose the justification would be something along the > lines of > >> "improving traffic." > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> From: Eric Britton > > >>> To: Cornie Huizenga >; > >>> > >> jane.> > >> > >>> Cc: Salil Bijur>; > Global 'South' Sustainable > >>> > >> Transport >; > >> Kanchan >; JasonChang > > >> > >>> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM > >>> Subject: Pedestrian Budget > >>> > >>> Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. > >>> > >>> The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., > >>> > >> walkers, > >> > >>> cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that > drivers can > >>> > >> arrive > >> > >>> unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the > >>> > >> concept > >> > >>> is otherwise billed.) > >>> > >>> Do I have that right? > >>> > >>> Kind thanks for informing, > >>> > >>> Best/Eric Britton > >>> > >>> PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent > truth-seeking > >>> > >> piece > >> > >>> for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced > coverage of > >>> course. Candidates? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > >>> > >>> World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > > >>> 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France > >>> +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org > . Skype newmobility > >>> New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org > > >>> 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > >>> +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org > . Skype ericbritton > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > >>> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > >>> > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the real > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >> > >>> ================================================================ > >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of > people-centred, > >>> > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > >> (the 'Global South'). > >> > >>> > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the real > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >> > >> ================================================================ > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > >> (the 'Global South'). > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the real > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >> > >> ================================================================ > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > >> (the 'Global South'). > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > -------------------------------------------- > > Todd Edelman > Green Idea Factory > > Urbanstr. 45 > D-10967 Berlin > Germany > > Skype: toddedelman > Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081 > > edelman@greenidea.eu > www.greenidea.eu > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman > > CAR* is over. If you want it. > > "Fort mit der Privatautostadt und was Neues hingebaut!" > - B. Brecht (with slight modification) > > * "Car" is a sub-category of automobile, i.e. one used > inappropriately, opportunistically or without creativity > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of > people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus > on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > > > > -- > > Walter Hook > Executive Director > Institute for Transportation and Development Policy > 127 W 26 St, Ste 1002 > New York, NY 10001 > 1-212-629-8001 > www.itdp.org > > Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide. -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Green Idea Factory Urbanstr. 45 D-10967 Berlin Germany Skype: toddedelman Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081 edelman@greenidea.eu www.greenidea.eu www.flickr.com/photos/edelman CAR* is over. If you want it. "Fort mit der Privatautostadt und was Neues hingebaut!" - B. Brecht (with slight modification) * "Car" is a sub-category of automobile, i.e. one used inappropriately, opportunistically or without creativity From simon.bishop at dimts.in Tue Mar 16 20:54:24 2010 From: simon.bishop at dimts.in (Simon Bishop) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:24:24 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: <4B9F50A8.7010803@gmail.com> References: <8fba064c1003070155lee52700q73709c4540ccfe18@mail.gmail.com> <47a72ec51003070429i39804004gbddd034d051ac5f5@mail.gmail.com> <852710.23034.qm@web39505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> <247EE4DD2AD33940B402771AC8C2CDFE3AED8E7DDF@dimts-exch.dimts.org> <4B9F50A8.7010803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <247EE4DD2AD33940B402771AC8C2CDFE3AED8E7F38@dimts-exch.dimts.org> Dear All, Since some of you had asked me about the TfL study that emerged with a BCR of 7.6:1 in favor of removing subways this is the link to the Surface Transport Paper. I had to open in Quick View. http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:cA2JhuV_JJMJ:www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Item10-Subways.pdf+surface+transport+tfl+subways&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgU7ro3qNVfUdlfq6e6a4vvbGWhwUgnTBXKKBpimGVLJHVE2qEdphGYl1kX-jKrN__AtVQLsle2toM9Rm6YTRR-7BmArDE-PAdUMh06k5jVQXwp4TJevWidrVBbY_uHlOGvf48O&sig=AHIEtbTQ7M55zdSMgjXOQQG4LQn2pzdDdQ 1. Item 10 - Subways- Surface Transport Panel 24 February 2009 A few excerpts from meetings of the Surface Transport Panel at TfL that compare nicely to when to 'install' FOBs. My question is, 'Why do we have to repeat all the same mistakes again?'. STREETS Pedestrian Guardrail Removal 8.1 All pedestrian guardrail on the Transport for London Road Network has been assessed for removal. TfL now plans to remove 52 kilometres of pedestrian guardrail by June 2010, achieving our overall target to remove 60 kilometres of guardrail from the TLRN. Elephant and Castle Southern Roundabout - [a 'nightmare' roundabout with six arterial route arms in South London] 8.2 On 15 February, works to transform Elephant and Castle southern roundabout to a signalled junction began. The preliminary works will involve preparations for new traffic signals and street lighting, repairs to drainage systems and temporary alterations to the traffic island on the approach to the roundabout from Walworth Road. 8.3 Main works get underway this summer and will include putting in new cycle lanes and advanced stop lines for cyclists at junctions. Paved areas next to the roads will also be widened to provide more space for pedestrians and cyclists to navigate the junction quickly and safely. As traffic lights are being installed, the subways around the roundabout will be filled in and replaced with surface crossings, providing easier crossing options for local residents. New trees will be planted, and railings and other unnecessary clutter related to the subways removed. The main works are scheduled to complete by early 2011. From am.geekstuff at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 16 20:53:35 2010 From: am.geekstuff at yahoo.co.uk (anant m) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:53:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses Message-ID: <90545.73229.qm@web23008.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all, Thanks for this very useful conversation. I am an urban geographer with an interest in the politics of infrastructure, planning, economies of the street etc. So I follow debates like this with interest. Although not directly relevant to the questions at hand, the experience of Hyderabad, India with Foot Over Bridges (as pedestrian overpasses are known in this city). Following public furore over some ghastly accidents which killed school children and their grandparents, the Municipal Corporation of Hyderabad, India launched an ambitious program of building Foot Overbridges through BOT (Build Operate and Transfer Scheme). The private partners who took the opportunity saw FoBs as overhead advertising space and accordingly influenced decision makers to locate FoBs at vantage points along the roads where they will be visible to the largest number of motorists. In most places, this worked as an additional disincentive to pedestrians who were already reluctant to use the foot overbridges because of the effort involved in climbing up. Some of these were later pulled down because in any case, they came in the way of proposed flyovers (as the road overpasses for motor traffic are known in Hyderabad). The latest is that the Municipal Corporation is seriously considering putting in escalators on some of the foot overbridges to encourage more people to use them. The drama continues even as pedestrian fatality figures show no signs of going down. :( The point I guess I am driving at is that municipal governments at least in India have all kinds of considerations for every bit of infrastructure that gets built. I am sure that no planner would suggest that planning happens in an ideological vaccuum, or under perfectly sanitary conditions, but I am not sure exactly how and at what stage planners integrate politics into their critical praxis. Below is a link to a story which captures the complications that Foot Over Bridges ran into Hyderabad - protests from local businessmen and from providers of other infrastructures and services such as underground cables and pipelines!!. http://www.hindu.com/2007/03/01/stories/2007030117500300.htm anant On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Bert Fabian wrote: From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Thu Mar 18 15:49:54 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:49:54 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Heritage and transport: And leadership by example? Message-ID: <00d801cac667$3a03a910$ae0afb30$@britton@ecoplan.org> Heritage and transport: And leadership by example? "We?ll keep our cars thank you very much. And we shall park them where we want. And for as long as we choose to. If heritage is a barrier, let?s move it out of the way. And, by the way, what moral authority do you have to tell me otherwise?" - Simon Bishop, Delhi, India Climate Change is so serious explain the policy wonks that it is like a war. Did Gandhi then delay the salt march due to the searing heat of Gujarat? It took place when the Gujarat cauldron was heating, finishing in April 1930. Did Gandhi continue to take His Majesty?s coin as a lawyer as ?the system was made to support the Empire and until it changed. We wouldn?t? This is a key point. Until policymakers start to take a lead and practice what they preach who will believe the product they are trying to sell? . __,_._,__--> The full text of this article appears in today?s World Streets at http://WorldStreets.org/ --> No broadband? No problem. Find it on the Open Edition at www.open.WorldStreets.org -- > Discussions on World Streets Forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldStreets (Post to WorldStreets@yahoogroups.com ) Read World Streets Today at http://www.worldstreets.org/ & www.open.worldstreets.org New Mobility Partnerships ? http://www.newmobility.org 8/10 rue Joseph Bara, 75006 Paris, France, Europe +331 4326 1323 eric.britton(at)newmobility.org Skype: newmobility _ From kanthikannan at gmail.com Fri Mar 19 15:49:48 2010 From: kanthikannan at gmail.com (Kanthi Kannan) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:19:48 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Road Safety : It is that time of the year when we the powers that be talk about road safety:) Message-ID: <4ba31e9b.9413f30a.02f4.261e@mx.google.com> Agenda for road safety http://beta.thehindu.com/opinion/editorial/article257532.ece The resolution passed by the United Nations General Assembly urging all nations to launch a decade of action on road safety from 2011 resonates with India's vulnerable road users. The Global Status Report on Road Safety, published by the World Health Organisation in 2009, reveals that the country leads a group of 10 countries with an appalling record. This small group records over 60 per cent of the 1.3 million road accident deaths reported worldwide. In India, death and disability from accidents have been rising steadily in tandem with motorisation; and the majority of victims are pedestrians, cyclists, and two-wheeler riders. The magnitude of the problem is clear from the report of the Sundar Committee of the Union Ministry of Road Transport and Highways released three years ago. The failure of governments to act in the face of its findings is responsible for the loss of about 100,000 lives each year. The burden of injuries is no less staggering. Even with under-reporting, the number of people injured is five times the number of deaths. Research studies indicate that the actual figure could be 15 times more. Yet very little has been done to implement the road map for safety drawn up by the Ministry's expert committee. The U.N. resolution urging decade-long efforts should spur the Indian government to end the carnage on the roads. Action in key areas can achieve quick results. These include building better roads, curbing drunk driving, enforcing compulsory use of helmets and seat belts, and strict norms for use of cell phones while driving. Such interventions produce effective outcomes and the central and state governments must accord them high priority. A sizable part of the funds allocated for road safety during the 10th Plan period, and the first three years of the 11th Plan, remained unspent. This is partly because many States have not met mandatory norms for utilisation. The funds, running into several Crores of rupees a year, could have financed safety infrastructure, driver training, and modernisation. The hope is that the Road Safety Bill, which is expected to be introduced in Parliament during the current session, will address several long-pending issues. This law must not stop with creating the anticipated National Road Safety and Traffic Management Board, but compel state agencies to become accountable in the areas of infrastructure and enforcement. Meanwhile, there are simple ways of protecting people on the roads. A good start can be made in metropolitan and urban India by investing in pedestrian infrastructure, traffic calming, and public transport. It has been established that such measures lower accident risk dramatically. From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Sat Mar 20 22:32:24 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 14:32:24 +0100 Subject: [sustran] World Streets weekend lecture series : Fred Salvucci on a... Message-ID: <015001cac831$dddfe0f0$999fa2d0$@britton@ecoplan.org> Look, I admit it. The week is far too charged for most of us to find an hour for thoughtfulness in terms of what it takes to bring sustainable transportation into the front line of the policy debate. But hey, it's the week-end, so let's make a virtual zero-CO2 hop to MIT and the banks of the Charles River and listen to what Fred Salvucci of their Center for Transportation and Logistics has to tell us about US perspectives and opportunities in our field. Transportation Policy: Thinking Globally, Acting Locally and Walking the Talk Fred Salvucci observes that true sustainable transport requires making more than short-term fixes. A sustainable transportation program is built upon the pyramid of three "E"s: equity, environmental benefit, and economics. Maximizing on just one of these objectives imbalances the others, and leads to unintended and undesirable results. --> The full text of this article appears in today's World Streets at http://WorldStreets.org/ --> No broadband? No problem. Find it on the Open Edition at www.open.WorldStreets.org -- > Discussions on World Streets Forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldStreets (Post to WorldStreets@yahoogroups.com ) Read World Streets Today at http://www.worldstreets.org/ & www.open.worldstreets.org New Mobility Partnerships - http://www.newmobility.org 8/10 rue Joseph Bara, 75006 Paris, France, Europe +331 4326 1323 eric.britton(at)newmobility.org Skype: newmobility From yanivbin at gmail.com Sun Mar 21 15:02:08 2010 From: yanivbin at gmail.com (Vinay Baindur) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 11:32:08 +0530 Subject: [sustran] CAG favours independent body to fix bus fares Message-ID: <86b8a7051003202302s39cd05c9pae4f488b366ee47a@mail.gmail.com> *By Express News Service 20 Mar 2010 07:11:27 AM IST* *CAG favours independent body to fix bus fares* BANGALORE: The Comptroller and Auditor General of India (CAG) has recommended an independent body like the Karnataka Electricity Regulatory Commission (KERC) to regulate fares and services of all state-run transport corporations, including BMTC (Bangalore Metropolitan Transport Corporation). This recommendation was made in the CAG report for the year ending March 31, 2009 (commercial) that was placed in the Legislative Assembly on Friday. The report said that though the transportation fares were being revised by the government whenever there was an increase in the cost of fuel and dearness allowance, the revision did not take into consideration the increase in operational cost. So it was desirable to have a regulatory body to fix the rates. The report also pointed out that the corporations can also increase their profits by tapping non-conventional sources of revenue by undertaking PPP projects and putting a tab on the excess consumption of fuel. The KSRTC (Karnataka State Road Transport Corporation), NWKRTC (North West Karnataka Road Transport Corporation), NEKRTC (North East Karnataka Road Transport Corporation) which provide public transport in the state are incurring losses mainly due to their high cost of operations, excess consumption of fuel and negligible reliance on hired buses, the report observed. Recommending the closure of 16 non-working public sector undertakings, the audit also noticed various deficiencies in the functioning of all 72 working PSUs (66 companies and six statutory corporations), which employed 1.74 lakh employees in the state. The three-year audit reports of the state-run PSUs also pointed out the huge loss of Rs 549.70 crore incurred by them and also at the infructuous investments of Rs 392.60 crore made by the state government in these PSUs. The heavy losses were incurred by three major electricity supply companies including Bescom (Rs 560.51 crore), Hescom (560.51 crore) and Chescom (Rs 217.15 crore). The major contributors to profit were the Karnataka Power Corporation (Rs 391.93 crore), Mysore Minerals (Rs 192.42 crore) and The Hutti Gold Mines Company (Rs 154.09 crore). ?There is greater need for professionalism and accountability in the functioning of PSUs. They can perform better only if they are financially self-reliant,? the report said. From sutp at sutp.org Mon Mar 22 14:05:22 2010 From: sutp at sutp.org (Sustianable Urban Transport Project) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:05:22 +0700 Subject: [sustran] SUTP Newsletter Jan-Feb 2010 Message-ID: <8EB793B0-A2A8-40E0-B928-BEC59A4DE7B7@sutp.org> **** SUSTAINABLE URBAN TRANSPORT PROJECT (SUTP) **** **** Newsletter 01/10 - Jan - Feb 2010 **** Important: A HTML Version of this newsletter is also available from http://www.sutp.org/newsletters/NL-Jan-Feb-10.html ***SUTP re-launches its website*** The Sustainable Urban Transport Project, has revamped their website and relaunched a new website. The project webpage is still accessible from http://www.sutp.org. It is expected that the new look and the features in the site will enable the users to find information on the site with ease. Technical arrangements have been made so that existing users of the SUTP website need not re-register but continue using their old usernames and passwords. Comments and suggestions on further improving the website and/or the newsletter service will be most welcome. Please do drop a line at sutp[at]sutp.org. *** New Publications *** GTZ UPDATES LIST OF NEWSLETTERS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS Is it hard to find information on transport? Did you ever wanted to spread the word about the upcoming workshop/conference that will be of great benefit to the transport community? Considering these issues the transport team at GTZ has compiled a list of Newsletters and Discussion Groups for Researchers, Policy-makers and Planners in the Transport Sector. The 14-page document at-tempts to list all the well-visited transport discussion groups and also sorts these groups into specific areas of focus. In case you are aware of any other group that is active in transport please do send in your recommendations along with a small write up on the discussion group/Newsletter and the weblink where people can access the group/newsletter. Submissions can be sent to sutp[at]sutp.org Link: http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1911&Itemid=1&lang=en ---- BRT PLANNING GUIDE NOW IN SPANISH The Institute for Transportation and Development Policy (ITDP) has translated the Bus Rapid Transit Planning Guide into Spanish. The translation was made possible through a grant from the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. The Spanish version of the planning guide can also be downloaded from the SUTP website. More information on the Spanish version of the planning guide can be obtained by visiting the ITDP?s website (http://www.itdp.org/index.php/microsite/guia_de_planificacion_de_sistemas_brt_spanish_bus_rapid_transit_guide/) Link: http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1911&Itemid=1&lang=en ---- INTERNATIONAL FUEL PRICES 2009 - FULL EDITION The 2009 International Fuel Prices report provides an overview of the retail prices of gasoline and diesel in more than 170 countries, discusses pricing policies, presents case studies on the impact of high and volatile fuel prices in 2007/2008 in developing countries and provides access to numerous additional resources. (114 pages, over 450 graphs and figures). The document is available for download from the GTZ Fuel Prices website. Link: http://www.gtz.de/fuelprices The document is available for download from the SUTP website. Link: http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1895&Itemid=1&lang=en ---- ANALYSING TRANSPORT CHAPTERS OF TECHNOLOGY NEEDS ASSESSMENT By the year 2050, the OECD/ITF predicts a 120% growth of global transport emissions on 2000 levels. Most of this increase will be caused by road transport in developing and emerging economies. Technology transfer has always been a key is-sue in international negotiations on climate change. Technology Needs Assessments (TNAs) are submitted by developing countries to the UNFCCC to outline their respective needs for transfer of and capacity building on GHG mitigating technologies. This paper aims at making a contribution to improving the provision of transport-related chapters in TNA Country Reports, and in particular the range of transferable technologies and measures in the transport sector. Available Country Reports were analysed with regard to the general coverage of transportation issues and the range of proposed transport technologies suitable for GHG mitigation. The results of the analysis emphasise the importance of "soft" and low-cost measures in the transport sector, such as public transport improvements, land use planning or non-motorised transport. Link: http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1908&Itemid=1&lang=en ---- COPENHAGEN ACCORD NAMA SUBMISSIONS: IMPLICATIONS FOR THE TRANSPORT SECTOR A week after the official deadline for submissions, the Bridging the Gap Initiative has analysed the Nationally Appropriate Mitigation Actions (NAMAs) submissions for the Copenhagen Accord made by developing countries as of February 4, 2010 (see attachment). 16 out of 25 countries made explicit reference to the transport sector. This shows that transport gains increasingly importance on the agenda of climate change mitigation efforts. The analysis provides a comprehensive overview of NAMAs submitted and classifies them according to transport measures proposed. The results find that submissions vary to a great extent in detail and specification, but the inclusion of transport is already a very positive sign. This can be seen as the will to act and Bridging the Gap will help developing countries in the expansion of further transport NAMAs. The analysis will be updated as more NAMAs will be submitted. Stay tuned! For further information, please visit http://www.transport2012.org. This document can also be downloaded from the SUTP website. Link: http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1909&Itemid=1&lang=en *** Recent Events *** DULT, GTZ AND IUT ORGANISE A ONE DAY WORKSHOP ON BUS RAPID TRANSIT IN BANGALORE The Directorate of Urban Land Transport (DULT, Bangalore), the German Technical Co-operation (GTZ) and the Institute of Urban Transport (IUT) jointly organised a one day workshop on Bus Rapid Transit. The event was conducted on the 26 February 2010 at the Gold-finch Hotel, Bangalore. The funding for the event was provided by DULT while GTZ and IUT were the organising partners. The workshop focussed on the importance of BRT systems and the ways for integrating and marketing the BRT system. Various examples from India and abroad were elaborated in the workshop. The speakers for the workshop include Dr. Dario Hidalgo and Mr. Madhav Pai from WRI-EMBARQ, Prof. Shivanand Swamy, CEPT University, Ms. Shreya Gadepalli, ITDP, Ms. Sonia Kapoor, IUT/UMTC and Mr. Santhosh Kodukula, GTZ. More than 100 participants at-tended the workshop. The participants were mainly from the local governments who held the position of engineers or executive engineers. Also present at the event was Mr. Ranganath, Chief Secretary, Govt. of Karnataka and advisor to the Chief Minister of Karnataka on Urban Affairs. The principal secretary Mr. Subhir Hari Singh, Mr. Shankarlinge Gowda, Secretary, Transport, Mr. Gaurav Gupta, Managing Director, Karnataka State Road Transport Corporation (KSRTC) and Mr. Sayeed Zameer Pasha, Managing Director, Bangalore Metropolitan Transport Corporation (BMTC) were also pre-sent and have chaired some sessions. Link: http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1912&Itemid=1&lang=en ---- HOW TO ACHIEVE A GLOBAL LOW-CARBON TRANSPORT SYSTEM BY 2050 A session was held at the 89th Annual Meeting of the Transportation Research Board (TRB) looking at a study conducted by the Institute for Transportation Policy Studies (ITPS) titled ?Transport in a Low Carbon Society?, which takes a backcasting approach to identify pathways to reduce CO2 emissions from the transport sector by 50% compared to the total level of emissions in 2000, and make bold policy recommendations to achieve this goal. The session was chaired by Professor Lee Schipper of UC Berkeley, and began with a presentation by Cornie Huizenga (ADB) on the overall framework to address transport and climate change, and Yuki Tanaka (ITPS) on the overall study. They were followed by the authors of the regional studies (each of which analyses a major world region and collectively feed into the global study), who presented on the key approaches to mitigating emissions in their regions. These were given by Holger Dalkmann of TRL (Europe), Lee Schipper of UC Berkeley (North/Latin America) and Sophie Punte/Bert Fabian of CAI-Asia (ASEAN). The session concluded with a panel discussion with all the presenters. Link: http://pressamp.trb.org/conferences/programs/session.asp?event=508&session=17068 ---- TRANSFORMING TRANSPORTATION DAY2: NEXT STEPS AFTER COPENHAGEN The second day of the Transforming Transportation event in Washington on January 16, 2010, provided a forum for the transport, climate, and development communities to discuss the outcomes from the 2009 climate summit in Copenhagen. The event was organised by EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport in partnership with the Asian Development Bank, the Partnership on Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport (SLoCaT) and was hosted at the Inter-American Development Bank. Participants discussed the connection between climate change and other drivers of transport interventions in developing countries; and how the transport community can best en-gage in solving the challenges caused by climate change. The Bridging the Gap Initiative launched its report on the out-comes of the Copenhagen climate conference. Manfred Breithaupt (GTZ) joined Urda Eichhorst (Wuppertal Institute) to present on findings from a recent GTZ publication on adaptation in the transport sector. For the full agenda visit: http://www.embarq.org/en/day-2-next-steps-after-copenhagen ---- AHMEDABAD, INDIA WINS THE 2010 SUSTAINABLE TRANSPORT AWARD The developing world is leap-frogging developed countries when it comes to urban transport, with the city of Ahmedabad, India, announced as winner of the 2010 Sustainable Transport Award for the successful implementation of Janmarg, India's first full bus rapid transit (BRT) system. Ahmedabad's Janmarg BRT system is a sustainable model for the future of transportation in India, where a quarter of the world's population lives. "BRT systems can positively impact air quality if car and motorbike drivers start taking trips by bus," said Sophie Punte, Executive Director of the Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities (CAI-ASIA). "This is particularly important in Asian cities, where air pollution levels are often far above guidelines of the World Health Organisation." City residents have embraced their new BRT system; 18,000 daily passengers use Janmarg to commute to work, to school and elsewhere. In just a few months of operation, Janmarg has transformed the delivery of transit in South Asia. Janmarg uses innovative central median stations pulled away from the junctions. Bus stations feature passive solar design, an inexpensive way to keep stations naturally cool. The city is making continued efforts to be a leader in sustainable transport, including incorporating high quality pedestrian facilities in some corridors, as well as bicycle lanes. Ahmedabad has initiated car-free days and recently announced more. For the first time in the six-year history of the Sustainable Transport Award, all of the nominees are cities in developing nations. The four honourable mentions go to Cali, Colombia, for transforming citywide BRT service with MIO; Curitiba, Brazil, for opening a new BRT line and city park on a former federal highway; Guadalajara, Mexico, for completing a full BRT system in less than two years and at an affordable cost; and Johannesburg, South Africa, for creating Rea Vaya, Africa's first BRT and the first public transit system that connects Soweto to the downtown district. The city of Johannesburg, South Africa, opened the first full BRT in Africa, and completed the first mass transit in-vestments in the city since the fall of apartheid. Rea Vaya is the first public transit system to link the previously disadvantaged Soweto area to the central business district. "In under three years, Johannesburg opened a state-of-the-art BRT system that uses the cleanest buses on the continent," said Manfred Breithaupt of Deutsche Gesellschaft fur Technische Zusammenarbeit (GTZ) GmbH. "Johannesburg's accomplishment against enormous challenges and the up-grading of the corridor in Soweto with lighting and side-walks makes it an exceptional honourable mention." (Complete article is available from the link below) Link: http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1886&Itemid=1&lang=en ---- *** Upcoming Events *** 22.03.2010 Rio de Janeiro, BR: World Urban Forum http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_eventlist&Itemid=56&func=details&did=415&Lang=en 28.03.2010 Abu Dhabi, AE: Road Safety on Four Continents http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_eventlist&Itemid=56&func=details&did=419&Lang=en 03.05.2010 New York, USA: Committee on Sustainable Development http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_eventlist&Itemid=56&func=details&did=406&lang=en 25.05.2010 Lisbon,PT: 16th IRF World Road Meeting http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_eventlist&Itemid=56&func=details&did=361&lang=en 26.05.2010 Leipzig,DE: International Transport Forum 2010 http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_eventlist&Itemid=56&func=details&did=404&lang=en 28.05.2010 Bonn,DE: Resilient Cities 2010 http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_eventlist&Itemid=56&func=details&did=405&lang=en 02.06.2010 Hong Kong, CN: TRANSED 2010 http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_eventlist&Itemid=56&func=details&did=380&lang=en 07.06.2010 Brussels,BE: Transport Research Arena 2010 http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_eventlist&Itemid=56&func=details&did=391&lang=en 22.06.2010 Copenhagen, DK: Velo-City Global 2010 http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_eventlist&Itemid=56&func=details&did=421&lang=en 04.07.2010 Stuttgart, DE: Cities for Mobility World Congress 2010 http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_eventlist&Itemid=56&func=details&did=401&lang=en Important: A HTML Version of this newsletter is also available from http://www.sutp.org/newsletters/NL-Jan-Feb-10.html Note: All the documents mentioned here are available for download from the SUTP website. For registration please visit http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=registers&lang= From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Tue Mar 23 22:01:51 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 14:01:51 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Eric, Can Europe de-carbonise transport? Message-ID: <00a001caca89$04173300$0c459900$@britton@ecoplan.org> Oh dear. This thing (below) that just slithered in under the door this morning addressed to my first name with almost a friendly slap on the back, is interesting for at least one reason, and in fact I intend to publish an editorial today in World Streets that looks directly at this topic. Notice, they are uniformly and without another thought proposing a clean car, clean fuel (clean mind) future for "decarburizing transport" in Europe. Oops. Here are two bits of today's piece that I offer up as an appetizer: Proposition 1. Fred Salvucci's neat little meta-equation, which he comment in his yesterday's lecture in World Streets: cid:image001.png@01CACA8B.59225E90 Proposition 2. And this on the importance of knowing about single-action bias from CRED - Center for Research on Environmental Decisions, Columbia University In response to uncertain and risky situations, humans have a tendency to focus and simplify their decision making. Individuals responding to a threat are likely to rely on one action, even when it provides only incremental protection or risk reduction and may not be the most effective option. People often take no further action, presumably because the first one succeeded in reducing their feeling of worry or vulnerability. This phenomenon is called the single-action bias. If this is the sort of things that our friend at the Commission are touting as " de-carbonise transport", well then sustainability is at risk. How can we bring them around to understanding what the sustainability challenge is really all about the right hand half of Fred's equation? For now this is not the main line they appear to be pushing. But it should be. Eh? Comments? Eric Britton Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. World Streets . www.worldstreets.org Open Edition: www.open.worldstreets.org 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton From: Comment Visions [mailto:email@fwm.emv1.com] Sent: Tuesday, 23 March, 2010 12:31 To: Eric Subject: Eric, Can Europe de-carbonise transport? Comment Visions Dear Eric, Visit - www.commentvisions.com This month on Comment:Visions This March and April, Comment:Visions shifts gears as we focus on Transportation. With cheap oil supplies dwindling and increasing pressure to decrease emissions, how are we going to get around in the future? Are alternative fuels, electric vehicles, and a change in transportation culture part of the solution? Live Debate - Can Europe de-carbonise transport? As part of the EU Sustainable Energy Week 2010, Comment:Visions is hosting a live debate on the future of mobility on Tuesday, 23 March at the European Commission in Brussels. The event will also be broadcast live on www.commentvisions.com. What is the best way to achieve low-carbon mobility? How can the different branches of the transport sector contribute? Can mobility be de-coupled from energy consumption? Is it up to EU policymakers to decide upon Europe's industrial choices? Click here to register for our event or to watch it broadcasted live online Online Discussion February Poll Results www.commentvisions.com "It's realistic to think that we will achieve global agreement on climate change" I agree - 41% I so not agree - 67% I don't know - 2% In the monthly Visions From section online, March's discussion topic is taking place: As well as seeking alternative fuels, should we be changing our entire transportation culture? Interested in commenting in our April online discussion on electric vehicles? Then send us a written answer to the question: If the transition to electric vehicles is so important, then why isn't it happening faster? Click here to join the debate Website Redesign We'e re-launching www.commentvisions.com next month! The redesigned website will have a new look-and-feel and include more interactivity, and easily searchable topics. Stay tuned for more updates leading up to the launch. Comment:Visions on the web You can now connect with Comment:Visions and with each other through our Comment:Visions LinkedIn Group and our Twitter page. If you need any further information regarding the Comment:Visions project click here and a member of the team will contact you. We look forward to hearing from you. Yours sincerely, Partnerships We are proud to announce that we are media partner of: - Electrical Vehicles at the Corssorads: Towards a Comprehensive EU-Wide Strategy (18 February in Brussles) AWBriefing - World Biofuels Markets 2010 (15-17 March in Amsterdam) World Biofuels Markets - EU Sustainable Energy Week 2010 (22-26 March in Brussels) World Biofuels Markets - EV Battery Tech 2010 (25 - 26 March in London) World Biofuels Markets - European Road Transport Arena (TRA 2010) (7 - 10 June in Brussels) World Biofuels Markets -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 7428 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20100323/25880b1f/attachment.jpe From joachim.bergerhoff at unhabitat-kosovo.org Tue Mar 23 16:55:04 2010 From: joachim.bergerhoff at unhabitat-kosovo.org (Joachim Bergerhoff) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 08:55:04 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses In-Reply-To: References: <47a72ec51003110528l4023d3b4o7495939d4e829173@mail.gmail.com> <26771.10246.qm@web39501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B9D907C.5050401@gmail.com> <38e55ad31003150744p3a819e04tcb21fff4f11984b5@mail.gmail.com> <4B9E5EE7.4020307@greenidea.eu> <38e55ad31003151007i1ccfeec7ifae14e5ba82a4116@mail.gmail.com> <493cf1c01003151046n55f0d560w2bf205488752198d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <493cf1c01003230055h4d204de6rc4a7150d9dc3e58a@mail.gmail.com> Hello Sudhir and All, thanks for the lovely example of overpass surrealism. Deep in their hearts, engineers are artists. I attach another example, from Podgorica, Montenegro. The style is rather baroque, I guess. My point is that you have to see these things to appreciate them for what they are (art, flowers of mismanagement, ... or even elements of urban and road infrastructure) and most of us probably have a dozen examples in our photo libraries. We should use this photographic material to value the talent of our artist engineers ! If local people don't use the overpass they built, the entire world should have the opportunity to admire them in a web gallery. This might also encourage them to evolve in style, toward something more humane and useful. Does anyone know of a world blog on bad (and good) pedestrian over- (and under-) passes or would be interested in creating one ? Yours, Joachim On 16 March 2010 01:55, Sudhir wrote: > I agree with Joachim... if only we can provide the best space ...... > > I have been a very bad road designer in past and used to use many > thumbrules ( which people call as guidelines) when designing the roads. I > have realized over time that people are bound to take shortest and > convenient route many a times irrespective of risks involved. Thus you see > people running across in the road below a overpass. This explains the > non-usage of bad overpass. > In order to even prevent that we have used 1m medians to prevent people > from > thinking at-grade... > > Providing an overpass one needs to marry geometry with landscape....there > are only few good asian examples of this... > > for the bad examples there are thousands... > > see this photo which i consider the best example of our mindset... > > i took this in cebu and was shocked when i saw this "wonder of new world" > > > http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yhbUFBRBDMo/SgeA8NTVOYI/AAAAAAAAAD4/C-42VqEK3_4/s1600-h/Picture+1031.jpg > > cheers > Sudhir > > > On 16 March 2010 01:46, Joachim Bergerhoff < > joachim.bergerhoff@unhabitat-kosovo.org> wrote: > > > Let's consider that, by definition, the street is where the pedestrians > and > > cyclists are. If the street must go over or under a thick stream of > > motorised traffic flow, so be it. What matters is that this "over- or > > under- pass-street" is a real street with all the positive features that > it > > should have from the point of view of non-motorised users: short > > connection, > > ample space, no obstacles for mobility impaired, safety, attractiveness, > > etc. An overpass can provide all this, if it is well designed at macro > and > > micro scale. It will not even be perceived as an overpass any longer, > > because it IS the street and the motor traffic is now underground > relative > > to it. This is of course difficult to achieve in many places, for > physical > > and funding reasons. But I suggest that anybody who considers an over- > or > > under-pass solution should have this vision in mind. > > Yours, > > Joachim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 15 March 2010 18:07, Walter Hook wrote: > > > > > Well, certainly we generally agree that its best to have at grade, but > we > > > tend to live in a second best world. > > > > > > We tend to recommend that brt stations be placed away from junctions > > > because > > > otherwise it slows down the busway because of bus stop/traffic signal > > > interference, as witnessed in Delhi, significantly slowing both bus > > speeds > > > and mixed traffic speeds. Placing the bus stop next to the > intersection > > > has > > > its ideological merits but frequently results in slower speeds and > > capacity > > > not only for motorists and also for bus passengers. > > > > > > This offset makes it more complicated for pedestrians who have to cross > > mid > > > block somewhere. Some BRT roads still have three mixed traffic lanes > > even > > > mid block, though not very many. TransMilenio does. TransJakarta > does, > > > etc. Maybe the road is a national road carrying a lot of long distance > > > truck traffic, a lot of charter buses, minibuses, shared taxis, who > > knows. > > > > > > Sure, the best solution for three or more lanes of mixed traffic per > > > direction might be a slow bump before the mid block ped crossing, and > an > > > elevated crosswalk, and a ped crossing signal, IF the traffic signal > > phase > > > for pedstrians is reasonably short, when there are three lanes or more > of > > > mixed traffic to cross, but many such roads are wide national roads > where > > > there are currently restrictions against slow bumps and other major > > > administrative and political hurdles which you just cannot overcome in > a > > > short time. > > > > > > If you just make people cross at grade but fail to provide a safe > > crossing > > > environment for whatever reason, it is probably better to have a > > pedestrian > > > flyover in a second best world. I've tried to cross mid-block in > Jakarta > > > at > > > an at-grade traffic signal where I had to wait for the signal for a > long > > > time and then NOBODY respected the pedestrian crossing signal anyway, > and > > I > > > can tell you, in that situation I am very happy for the locations where > > > there is a pedestrian overpass. > > > > > > That doesnt mean there should not also be an at grade crossing. i am > > all > > > for giving the pedestrians as many choices as possible. > > > > > > So while it is fairly easy to take an ideological position on the > matter, > > > there may be a lot of local factors and political realities that dont > > give > > > two hoots about a pure ideological position and actually do care about > > > traffic flow, etc. > > > > > > So if we offer an at grade option, would we still be against also > > providing > > > a pedestrian overpass? > > > > > > Pedestrian overpass design matters a lot. many of them are too high, > the > > > gradient is too steep, etc. What if there are escalators or elevators? > > > > > > In some cases they get used by a lot of people who are simply trying to > > > cross the street who have trouble crossing the street anyway, in > > conditions > > > where despite YEARS of advocacy efforts we have simply FAILED to > convince > > > the authorities to improve the surface condition. > > > > > > So, I am not sure a hard line against them is constructive. > > > > > > best > > > walter > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory < > > > edelman@greenidea.eu> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > First - I hope this does not seem and odd question - for the > "experts" > > > > whom Carlos spoke of and others who ask ITDP about it, etc, what is > the > > > > conceptual or philosophical starting point for a "street"? (And I > mean > > > > all spaces for life between buildings, to paraphrase our dear Mr > Gehl). > > > > Is the simple space between buildings the natural street, with > > > > everything else adding both positive (e.g. fast collective public > > > > transport, access for emergency vehicles) and/or negative (e.g. any > > > > private automobiles, or at least those moving over typical cycling > > speed) > > > > > > > > Or is the starting point the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > total-Hell-we-need-a-flyover-dont-we?-children-are-scared-to-cross-BUT-if-vehicles > > > > dont-move-fast-enough-the-same-children-will-somehow-starve road? > > > > > > > > Second - for wider streets with heavy/fast road vehicles - why not a > > > > pedestrian signal which allows the slowest walking people to cross in > > > > one go (no islands), assuming they get to the edge just as the light > > > > turns green for them? Or on any major pedestrian routes, how about > > > > having a "green wave" for > > > > pedestrians with signals based on walking speed along a single route? > I > > > > see no need at all for a pedestrian flyover, even for streets with > BRT > > > > or light rail and close intervals. So I am agreeing with Colin, but > > > > Walter, you seem to have some reason to disagree but I can't figure > out > > > > what it is... > > > > > > > > - Todd (in Europe, on a pretty busy street) > > > > > > > > Walter Hook wrote: > > > > > we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and under > > many > > > > > contexts. I believe that some basic general principals can be > > followed > > > > but > > > > > also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted. People can normally > > cross > > > > two > > > > > lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not > > three > > > or > > > > > more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be > > respected. > > > > > even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, but > as > > a > > > > rule > > > > > of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and > three > > > > lanes > > > > > of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better. > > > > > > > > > > w. > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Dear Carlos > > > > >> > > > > >> I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken user > > > needs > > > > >> analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the > > > > >> Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade > > crossings. > > > I > > > > >> believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the > > > at-grade > > > > >> crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian > > > volume, > > > > >> appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is > > such > > > > >> that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not > > > > >> require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take > full > > > > >> consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being > > > > >> placed. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Regards > > > > >> Colin Brader > > > > >> Director > > > > >> Integrated Transport Planning Ltd > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net@ > list.jca.apc.org > > > > >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader > > > > > > = > > > > >> itpworld.net@list.jca.apc.org] On > > > > >> Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo > > > > >> Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42 > > > > >> To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > > > > >> Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses > > > > >> > > > > >> Hi, > > > > >> > > > > >> The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of > > > > >> level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries > in > > > > >> Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as > a > > > > >> fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and > even > > > > >> pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" > in > > a > > > > >> crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! > > > I've > > > > >> been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a > specific > > > > >> overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they > > don't > > > > >> understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they > > are > > > > >> also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to > many > > > > >> (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car > must > > > just > > > > >> > > > > >> whizz by). > > > > >> > > > > >> This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues... > > > > >> > > > > >> Best regards, > > > > >> > > > > >> Carlos. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they > > simply > > > > >>> > > > > >> just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just > > > > >> before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply > > > notices. > > > > >> But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines > > of > > > > >> "improving traffic." > > > > >> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> ________________________________ > > > > >>> From: Eric Britton > > > > >>> To: Cornie Huizenga; > > > > >>> > > > > >> jane. > > > > >> > > > > >>> Cc: Salil Bijur; Global 'South' Sustainable > > > > >>> > > > > >> Transport; > > > > >> Kanchan; JasonChang > > > > >> > > > > >>> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM > > > > >>> Subject: Pedestrian Budget > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e., > > > > >>> > > > > >> walkers, > > > > >> > > > > >>> cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers > can > > > > >>> > > > > >> arrive > > > > >> > > > > >>> unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how > the > > > > >>> > > > > >> concept > > > > >> > > > > >>> is otherwise billed.) > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Do I have that right? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Kind thanks for informing, > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Best/Eric Britton > > > > >>> > > > > >>> PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be an excellent > > truth-seeking > > > > >>> > > > > >> piece > > > > >> > > > > >>> for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced > coverage > > > of > > > > >>> course. Candidates? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > > > > >>> 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France > > > > >>> +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype > > > newmobility > > > > >>> New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org > > > > >>> 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > > > > >>> +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > > >>> > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > >>> > > > > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > > >>> > > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the > > > > real > > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > >> > > > > >>> ================================================================ > > > > >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of > people-centred, > > > > >>> > > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > > countries > > > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > > > >> > > > > >>> > > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > > >> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > >> > > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the > > > > real > > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > >> > > > > >> ================================================================ > > > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of > people-centred, > > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > > countries > > > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > > >> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > >> > > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the > > > > real > > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > >> > > > > >> ================================================================ > > > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of > people-centred, > > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > > countries > > > > >> (the 'Global South'). > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Todd Edelman > > > > Green Idea Factory > > > > > > > > Urbanstr. 45 > > > > D-10967 Berlin > > > > Germany > > > > > > > > Skype: toddedelman > > > > Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081 > > > > > > > > edelman@greenidea.eu > > > > www.greenidea.eu > > > > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman > > > > > > > > CAR* is over. If you want it. > > > > > > > > "Fort mit der Privatautostadt und was Neues hingebaut!" > > > > - B. Brecht (with slight modification) > > > > > > > > * "Car" is a sub-category of automobile, i.e. one used > inappropriately, > > > > opportunistically or without creativity > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > > real > > > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > > > > > ================================================================ > > > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > countries > > > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Walter Hook > > > Executive Director > > > Institute for Transportation and Development Policy > > > 127 W 26 St, Ste 1002 > > > New York, NY 10001 > > > 1-212-629-8001 > > > www.itdp.org > > > > > > Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide. > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real > > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > > > ================================================================ > > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > -- > Sudhir Gota > Transport Specialist > CAI-Asia Center > Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, > ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City > Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 > Tel: +63-2-395-2843 > Fax: +63-2-395-2846 > Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org > Skype : sudhirgota > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Podgoricaoverpass.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 422226 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20100323/68e25033/Podgoricaoverpass.jpeg From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Wed Mar 24 15:41:17 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 07:41:17 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Carsharing in Sweden in 2010 - World Streets 2010 Coountry report Message-ID: <013001cacb1d$18520900$48f61b00$@britton@ecoplan.org> Carsharing in Sweden in 2010 Carsharing is one of those areas of sustainable transport where people really know what they are dong. There is plenty of theory behind it but to get the job done one needs to be on top of the details and active on the ground. Whether at the level of the operators or those preparing new projects, or for those rare public officials who understand their importance, at the level of the city and more broadly. Given this, it is a miracle that we are able to get our any of busy colleagues to take the time away from their pressing responsibilities to share with us all their understanding and vision of carsharing in their country. This latest country survey provides excellent coverage of the situation in Sweden, thanks to Per Schillander of the SRA. --> The full text of this article appears in today's World Streets at http://WorldStreets.org/ --> No broadband? No problem. Find it on the Open Edition at www.open.WorldStreets.org -- > Discussions on World Streets Forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldStreets (Post to WorldStreets@yahoogroups.com ) Read World Streets Today at http://www.worldstreets.org/ & www.open.worldstreets.org New Mobility Partnerships - http://www.newmobility.org 8/10 rue Joseph Bara, 75006 Paris, France, Europe +331 4326 1323 eric.britton(at)newmobility.org Skype: newmobility __,_._,___ From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Wed Mar 24 17:34:38 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 09:34:38 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? Message-ID: <01c801cacb2c$e53ead10$afbc0730$@britton@ecoplan.org> Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? Should be transportation planners and policymakers working in cities the developing world be taking the time to follow developments in other places so that they are fully informed about planning and policy matters as necessary for ensuring successful carsharing in their cities and countries. We think they should. We (I guess that means me, but not really since I know I am not alone in this) firmly believe that carsharing is a practical transportation alternative that is relevant for just about every place in the world where there are people who need to have access to cars (and vans and trucks). It is not only a proven low carbon way to have access to and use cars, but it makes economic sense for most people, and (when it works properly) is a lot more convenient to boot. So please keep up on carshare developments world wide and bear it in mind that carsharing is "the last nail in the coffin of old mobility". Eric Britton For the World Carshare Consortium at www.worldcarshare.com Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. World Streets . www.worldstreets.org Open Edition: www.open.worldstreets.org 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Wed Mar 24 22:56:18 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 14:56:18 +0100 Subject: [sustran] [World Streets] Letter from Kathmandu: Promoting walking as sustainable... Message-ID: <0bd901cacb59$c983b3e0$5c8b1ba0$@britton@ecoplan.org> Letter from Kathmandu: Promoting walking as sustainable transportation Does anyone notice anything a bit strange in these two photos of traffic in Kathmandu Nepal on any typical day. To the left we have boiling Asia-style traffic propelling speeding high carbon males. While to the right we see a woman and a girl making their way as best they can by foot. Hmm. Status of Pedestrian Infrastructures in Kathmandu City - Charina Cabrido, Clean Air Initiatives for Asian Cities. Kathmandu, Nepal. __,_._,___--> The full text of this article appears in today?s World Streets at http://WorldStreets.org/ --> No broadband? No problem. Find it on the Open Edition at www.open.WorldStreets.org -- > Discussions on World Streets Forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldStreets (Post to WorldStreets@yahoogroups.com ) Read World Streets Today at http://www.worldstreets.org/ & www.open.worldstreets.org New Mobility Partnerships ? http://www.newmobility.org 8/10 rue Joseph Bara, 75006 Paris, France, Europe +331 4326 1323 eric.britton(at)newmobility.org Skype: newmobility From roger.gorham at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 23:55:43 2010 From: roger.gorham at gmail.com (Roger Gorham) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:55:43 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? In-Reply-To: <-5129345260036287943@unknownmsgid> References: <-5129345260036287943@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Eric, OK, I'll bite. I think that the question really depends on what you mean by car-"sharing" and what prevailing wage rates are (which itself ultimately depends on whether you are talking about middle, low, or very-low income countries). If by car-sharing you mean having relatively hassle-free access to automobility without the need to own and maintain a car by people with means to otherwise do so, then most cities in the global "south" already have car-sharing. They are called taxis. The main function of car-sharing is to variabilize a formerly fixed or sunk cost. In many low- and very low-income countries with very low wage rates, it is hard to envision a circumstance in which the variabilized costs of access to a fleet of self-drive vehicles could be made to be lower than the already-variabilized costs of access to taxis. Perhaps there would be certain niche markets in which some wealthier middle and upper-middle class people in low-income countries might prefer to take a well-maintained self-drive fleet vehicle than use a (often poorly maintained) taxi, but this niche would barely make a dent on overall urban mobility, and even there, I cannot envision a circumstance where you could convince these people in large numbers to choose car-sharing over owning their own vehicle. Car-sharing becomes more viable the higher your average wage rates, so I think your suggestion for transportation planners and policy makers to follow development elsewhere would only make sense (perhaps) for middle income countries. Roger Gorham On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 4:34 AM, Eric Britton wrote: > Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? > > Should be transportation planners and policymakers working in cities the > developing world be taking the time to follow developments in other places > so that they are fully informed about planning and policy matters as > necessary for ensuring successful carsharing in their cities and countries. > > We think they should. We (I guess that means me, but not really since I > know > I am not alone in this) firmly believe that carsharing is a practical > transportation alternative that is relevant for just about every place in > the world where there are people who need to have access to cars (and vans > and trucks). It is not only a proven low carbon way to have access to and > use cars, but it makes economic sense for most people, and (when it works > properly) is a lot more convenient to boot. > > So please keep up on carshare developments world wide and bear it in mind > that carsharing is "the last nail in the coffin of old mobility". > > Eric Britton > > For the World Carshare Consortium at > www.worldcarshare.com > > > > Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > Open Edition: www.open.worldstreets.org > 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France > +331 7550 3788 . > eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility > New Mobility Partnerships . > www.partners.newmobility.org > 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . > Skype ericbritton > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Thu Mar 25 03:54:42 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 19:54:42 +0100 Subject: [sustran] They are called taxis In-Reply-To: References: <-5129345260036287943@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <0cc401cacb83$796dbe30$6c493a90$@britton@ecoplan.org> Dear Roger. Thank you for biting. Taxis. Yes, yes and yes. Your points are excellent and you are on the button with your definition of carsharing. (You can check us out at World Carshare Consortium at www.worldcarshare.com where we look at this in all kinds of places and from all kinds of interesting angles.) The first one to ring this bell though was Joachim Bergerhoff who is working in Kosovo and who came in this morning with the same good point. Let me back up a step on this. First of all I am not pushing carsharing as a magic wand for low, or very-low income countries. But then you say niche markets, and indeed. The fact is though that the niches can be quite large.. The definition of India for example as a France surrounded by Africa, would suggest to me that there is potential there. And all the more so in many Latin American capitals and larger cities. But like city cycling, just to pick another good and underused mode out of a hat, this needs to be done with great feel. That's why we call the New Mobility Agenda, "The Politics of Transportation". ( The point stands though. I can easily name twenty, probably fifty cities in the developing world in which it could work if it had the right kind of policy support without even breaking into a sweat. So I think that we need to be sure they are a bit up on this approach, if nothing else. Also cause it's not only transport but it's also economics and culture, and there is room for improvement on both these scores. For more on carsharing worldwide, see the World Carshare Consortium at www.worldcarshare.com) Back to taxis and the three yes's: Yes because they are there and provide mobility - and jobs -- every day. Yes because they are best when shared. And Yes we know what's wrong with them and what to do to bring them more smoothly into the overall sustainable transport systems of our cities. (Sustainability in this instance being a direction, not necessarily a full and final accomplishment.) With all good wishes, Eric Bitten Text of marquee toward top left on World Streets: NEWMOB CARS: Carpooling * Carsharing * Car diets * Car rental * Ownership Patterns * Parking strategies * Use patterns PUBLIC TRANSPORT: Bus Rapid Transit * Buses * Community Bus * Free Public Transport * Integrated Fare Systems * Light rail * Small Bus Systems * Transit integration SHARE TRANSPORT: Bike-sharing * Car-sharing * Ride Sharing * Taxi-sharing * Space-sharing * Digital Hitchhiking * Hitchhiking, * Jitney * Paratransit * Shuttle Services * Slugging * Vanpooling ACTIVE TRANSPORT: * Bicycles * Bike/Transit Integration * Public Bicycle Systems * Telecommuting * Telework * Walk to School * Walking TDM: Congestion * Flexible Working * Flextime * Road Diets * Speed Reductions * Traffic Calming GOODS DISTRIBUTION: Consolidation centers * Combined delivery * Distribution schemes * Small vehicle delivery * Truck bans * Van/truck sharing INFRASTRUCTURE: Cycle adaptations * Enforcement * HOV Strategies * Pedestrianization * Road Architecture * Road diets. * Road pricing * SOV Strategies * Street Codes * Street Reclaiming * Transit Priorities * Universal design * Vehicle Use Restrictions LAND USE: Car Free Planning * Mixed Use * New Mobility HUBs * Public spaces * Tax policy * TOD * Value Capture From MPai at wri.org Thu Mar 25 19:27:48 2010 From: MPai at wri.org (Madhav Pai) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 06:27:48 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? In-Reply-To: <01c801cacb2c$e53ead10$afbc0730$@britton@ecoplan.org> References: <01c801cacb2c$e53ead10$afbc0730$@britton@ecoplan.org> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C079BF938@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> A form of car sharing in India very prevalent. In most cities you can rent a car/with a driver (half day:4 hours), full day: 8-12 hours, few days even a few months). The cars are available in all sizes small sedans to mini vans. The rates are pretty much fixed across the country. It usually starts at 4 Hours, 40 Kms is 400 Rs (10 USD) for a low small sedan. Car ownership may vary between from one car (owner/driver) to a few thousand cars. There is also an increasing number of fleet managers. That take these cars from individual owners/drivers, use technology elements (GPS tracking), call center etc and make them available to offices/companies. Would you call this car sharing? It would be interesting to study if the availability of these cars - prevent people from buying cars - do they end up buying smaller cars for city use and renting these bigger cars for long trips - what percentage of car use in our cities are these shared cars? - if one these large companies could transform themselves into membership based car sharing entities. Sincerely; Madhav Pai Technical Director EMBARQ - India -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+mpai=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+mpai=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Eric Britton Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:05 PM To: Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? Should be transportation planners and policymakers working in cities the developing world be taking the time to follow developments in other places so that they are fully informed about planning and policy matters as necessary for ensuring successful carsharing in their cities and countries. We think they should. We (I guess that means me, but not really since I know I am not alone in this) firmly believe that carsharing is a practical transportation alternative that is relevant for just about every place in the world where there are people who need to have access to cars (and vans and trucks). It is not only a proven low carbon way to have access to and use cars, but it makes economic sense for most people, and (when it works properly) is a lot more convenient to boot. So please keep up on carshare developments world wide and bear it in mind that carsharing is "the last nail in the coffin of old mobility". Eric Britton For the World Carshare Consortium at www.worldcarshare.com Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. World Streets . www.worldstreets.org Open Edition: www.open.worldstreets.org 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Thu Mar 25 20:01:06 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:01:06 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? In-Reply-To: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C079BF938@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> References: <01c801cacb2c$e53ead10$afbc0730$@britton@ecoplan.org> <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C079BF938@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Message-ID: <016a01cacc0a$7a1c8870$6e559950$@britton@ecoplan.org> This is a brilliant project idea Madhav. I very much hope that EMBARQ or some other investigator or group will get behind this. It would be a fine contribution for transport policy in India, opening up the debate in a friendly and positive way concerning what it means to have and use a car. It would also, I am sure, serve as a leading example to encourage others to do the same. The idea behind the New Mobility approach is that there are many ways of skinning the cat of un-sustainable transport (also known as Old Mobility) and we need to know more about every one. Then when we understand them better, we can begin to stitch them together in different combination and different ways for different people and different cites. (Who said that sustainable transportation was supposed to be easy.) I am sure that I am not the only one here who will support this idea. Eric Britton A form of car sharing in India very prevalent. In most cities you can rent a car/with a driver (half day: 4 hours), full day: 8-12 hours, few days even a few months). The cars are available in all sizes small sedans to mini vans. The rates are pretty much fixed across the country. It usually starts at 4 Hours, 40 Kms is 400 Rs (10 USD) for a low small sedan. Car ownership may vary between from one car (owner/driver) to a few thousand cars. There is also an increasing number of fleet managers. That take these cars from individual owners/drivers, use technology elements (GPS tracking), call center etc and make them available to offices/companies. Would you call this car sharing? It would be interesting to study if the availability of these cars - prevent people from buying cars - do they end up buying smaller cars for city use and renting these bigger cars for long trips - what percentage of car use in our cities are these shared cars? - if one these large companies could transform themselves into membership based car sharing entities. Sincerely; Madhav Pai Technical Director EMBARQ - India From cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org Thu Mar 25 20:13:05 2010 From: cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org (Cornie Huizenga) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 19:13:05 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? In-Reply-To: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C079BF938@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> References: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C079BF938@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Message-ID: <47a72ec51003250413h4efa4141s959671d58ff9fe63@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, For the last 13 years I have lived in Asia without owning a car. Fir 10 years in Manila I did what Madhav described - take a car with driver so that you don't have problems with parking. One reason for taking car with driver was that taxis were unreliable. I am certain that in this manner I avoided a lot of kilometers compared to having a car myself. Cornie On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 6:27 PM, Madhav Pai wrote: > A form of car sharing in India very prevalent. > > In most cities you can rent a car/with a driver (half day:4 hours), full > day: 8-12 hours, few days even a few months). The cars are available in > all sizes small sedans to mini vans. The rates are pretty much fixed > across the country. It usually starts at 4 Hours, 40 Kms is 400 Rs (10 > USD) for a low small sedan. > > Car ownership may vary between from one car (owner/driver) to a few > thousand cars. > There is also an increasing number of fleet managers. That take these > cars from individual owners/drivers, use technology elements (GPS > tracking), call center etc and make them available to offices/companies. > > > Would you call this car sharing? > > It would be interesting to study if the availability of these cars > - prevent people from buying cars > - do they end up buying smaller cars for city use and renting these > bigger cars for long trips > - what percentage of car use in our cities are these shared cars? > - if one these large companies could transform themselves into > membership based car sharing entities. > > > Sincerely; > Madhav Pai > Technical Director > EMBARQ - India > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+mpai=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+mpai = > wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf > Of Eric Britton > Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:05 PM > To: Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? > > Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? > > Should be transportation planners and policymakers working in cities the > developing world be taking the time to follow developments in other > places so that they are fully informed about planning and policy matters > as necessary for ensuring successful carsharing in their cities and > countries. > > We think they should. We (I guess that means me, but not really since I > know I am not alone in this) firmly believe that carsharing is a > practical transportation alternative that is relevant for just about > every place in the world where there are people who need to have access > to cars (and vans and trucks). It is not only a proven low carbon way to > have access to and use cars, but it makes economic sense for most > people, and (when it works > properly) is a lot more convenient to boot. > > So please keep up on carshare developments world wide and bear it in > mind that carsharing is "the last nail in the coffin of old mobility". > > Eric Britton > > For the World Carshare Consortium at > www.worldcarshare.com > > > > Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > Open Edition: www.open.worldstreets.org 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris > 75006 France > +331 7550 3788 . > eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility > New Mobility Partnerships . > www.partners.newmobility.org > 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . > Skype ericbritton > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- Cornie Huizenga Joint Convener Partnership on Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport Mobile: +86 13901949332 cornie.huizenga@slocatpartnership.org www.slocat.net From alok.priyanka at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 20:33:12 2010 From: alok.priyanka at gmail.com (Jains) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:03:12 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? In-Reply-To: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C079BF938@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> References: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C079BF938@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Message-ID: <6e4025ad1003250433q1179b0f1yd5e5c6bebac19617@mail.gmail.com> Interesting point, Madhav. I have recently moved to India after living for 15 years in Hong Kong and enjoying a very good public transport system. In my quest to live car-less (which I must admit is not very easy in Mumbai), I am a regular user of rent-a-car system that you mention below. They are usually quite reliable. With phone numbers of a few of such providers stored in my phone, I have always managed to arrange one or the other. Has it prevented me to purchase a car? So far, yes. But when one looks at the public transport alternatives available, it is not very difficult for anybody who can afford to get convinced to purchase a car and use it regularly. Regards Alok Jain On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:57 PM, Madhav Pai wrote: > A form of car sharing in India very prevalent. > > In most cities you can rent a car/with a driver (half day:4 hours), full > day: 8-12 hours, few days even a few months). The cars are available in > all sizes small sedans to mini vans. The rates are pretty much fixed > across the country. It usually starts at 4 Hours, 40 Kms is 400 Rs (10 > USD) for a low small sedan. > > Car ownership may vary between from one car (owner/driver) to a few > thousand cars. > There is also an increasing number of fleet managers. That take these > cars from individual owners/drivers, use technology elements (GPS > tracking), call center etc and make them available to offices/companies. > > > Would you call this car sharing? > > It would be interesting to study if the availability of these cars > - prevent people from buying cars > - do they end up buying smaller cars for city use and renting these > bigger cars for long trips > - what percentage of car use in our cities are these shared cars? > - if one these large companies could transform themselves into > membership based car sharing entities. > > > Sincerely; > Madhav Pai > Technical Director > EMBARQ - India > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+mpai=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+mpai = > wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf > Of Eric Britton > Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:05 PM > To: Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? > > Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? > > Should be transportation planners and policymakers working in cities the > developing world be taking the time to follow developments in other > places so that they are fully informed about planning and policy matters > as necessary for ensuring successful carsharing in their cities and > countries. > > We think they should. We (I guess that means me, but not really since I > know I am not alone in this) firmly believe that carsharing is a > practical transportation alternative that is relevant for just about > every place in the world where there are people who need to have access > to cars (and vans and trucks). It is not only a proven low carbon way to > have access to and use cars, but it makes economic sense for most > people, and (when it works > properly) is a lot more convenient to boot. > > So please keep up on carshare developments world wide and bear it in > mind that carsharing is "the last nail in the coffin of old mobility". > > Eric Britton > > For the World Carshare Consortium at > www.worldcarshare.com > > > > Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > Open Edition: www.open.worldstreets.org 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris > 75006 France > +331 7550 3788 . > eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility > New Mobility Partnerships . > www.partners.newmobility.org > 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . > Skype ericbritton > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > From sguttikunda at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 21:08:51 2010 From: sguttikunda at gmail.com (Sarath Guttikunda) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:38:51 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? In-Reply-To: <6e4025ad1003250433q1179b0f1yd5e5c6bebac19617@mail.gmail.com> References: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C079BF938@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> <6e4025ad1003250433q1179b0f1yd5e5c6bebac19617@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <683ba1ca1003250508w49835c69p462404e29eb91214@mail.gmail.com> to the car-less list. I do not own a car and use the autorickshaws, bus, or rent-a-car, depending on how many meetings I have and the accessibility of transport at various locations. This saves me time from looking for parking, sitting behind the wheel in congestion cursing the driver ahead of me, honking non-stop in hope that the sound energy will some how transform the congested roads to lift the cars into the air, and gives me time to read the papers. Then, there was a statement last week by the Delhi Chief Minister, to ban the Autorickshaws. Is this good for promoting car-sharing? Yes, the autorickshaw drivers can be annoying and at times, hard to bargain with. Nevertheless, once in the routine and have an idea of the distances and prices, one learns to bargains. I am not talking from the perspective of the drivers and their incomes, but from the mobility perspective. Yes, the autorickshaws move slower than the regular-new-model-cars-and-suvs. But, they move people as much as the cars. Without providing an adequate alternative, like at least doubling of the public transport system, this is a sorry move. Same goes for the car-sharing or taxis in the city. Too few. Even after the metro becomes operational in Delhi, the role of autorickshaws will garner a more prominent role in shuttling passengers between stations to the residential and commercial neighborhoods. For example, take a look at the two wheeler service in Bangkok at the sky train stations. Even, in Mumbai, the concept of the shared taxis at the subway stations. An effective service for the public, especially for the short trips, and an integrated multi-modal transport system. With regards, Sarath -- Sarath Guttikunda New Delhi, India Phone: +91 9891 315 946 @ http://www.urbanemissions.info @ http://www.dri.edu/People/Sarath.Guttikunda/ On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 5:03 PM, Jains wrote: > Interesting point, Madhav. > > I have recently moved to India after living for 15 years in Hong Kong and > enjoying a very good public transport system. > > In my quest to live car-less (which I must admit is not very easy in > Mumbai), I am a regular user of rent-a-car system that you mention below. > They are usually quite reliable. With phone numbers of a few of such > providers stored in my phone, I have always managed to arrange one or the > other. Has it prevented me to purchase a car? So far, yes. But when one > looks at the public transport alternatives available, it is not very > difficult for anybody who can afford to get convinced to purchase a car and > use it regularly. > > Regards > Alok Jain > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:57 PM, Madhav Pai wrote: > > > A form of car sharing in India very prevalent. > > > > In most cities you can rent a car/with a driver (half day:4 hours), full > > day: 8-12 hours, few days even a few months). The cars are available in > > all sizes small sedans to mini vans. The rates are pretty much fixed > > across the country. It usually starts at 4 Hours, 40 Kms is 400 Rs (10 > > USD) for a low small sedan. > > > > Car ownership may vary between from one car (owner/driver) to a few > > thousand cars. > > There is also an increasing number of fleet managers. That take these > > cars from individual owners/drivers, use technology elements (GPS > > tracking), call center etc and make them available to offices/companies. > > > > > > Would you call this car sharing? > > > > It would be interesting to study if the availability of these cars > > - prevent people from buying cars > > - do they end up buying smaller cars for city use and renting these > > bigger cars for long trips > > - what percentage of car use in our cities are these shared cars? > > - if one these large companies could transform themselves into > > membership based car sharing entities. > > > > > > Sincerely; > > Madhav Pai > > Technical Director > > EMBARQ - India > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+mpai=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+mpai = > > wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf > > Of Eric Britton > > Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:05 PM > > To: Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > > Subject: [sustran] Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? > > > > Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? > > > > Should be transportation planners and policymakers working in cities the > > developing world be taking the time to follow developments in other > > places so that they are fully informed about planning and policy matters > > as necessary for ensuring successful carsharing in their cities and > > countries. > > > > We think they should. We (I guess that means me, but not really since I > > know I am not alone in this) firmly believe that carsharing is a > > practical transportation alternative that is relevant for just about > > every place in the world where there are people who need to have access > > to cars (and vans and trucks). It is not only a proven low carbon way to > > have access to and use cars, but it makes economic sense for most > > people, and (when it works > > properly) is a lot more convenient to boot. > > > > So please keep up on carshare developments world wide and bear it in > > mind that carsharing is "the last nail in the coffin of old mobility". > > > > Eric Britton > > > > For the World Carshare Consortium at > > www.worldcarshare.com > > > > > > > > Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > > > World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > > Open Edition: www.open.worldstreets.org 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris > > 75006 France > > +331 7550 3788 . > > eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility > > New Mobility Partnerships . > > www.partners.newmobility.org > > 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > > +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . > > Skype ericbritton > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Thu Mar 25 22:14:05 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:14:05 +0100 Subject: [sustran] How to build more traffic? It's not hard. Read on. Message-ID: <01a301cacc1d$0e042130$2a0c6390$@britton@ecoplan.org> Freeways Responsible For Emptying Out Cities A recent study shows that for every significant freeway that gets built in a major city, population declines by about 18%. Nathaniel Baum-Snow, author of the study, talks with Planetizen. Nathaniel Baum-Snow is a professor of economics at Brown University. His research has been remarkable consistent and urban-centric since writing his dissertation in 2000 on "The Effects of New Public Projects to Expand Urban Rail Transit." Baum-Snow?s work came to our attention when he was cited in a recent Boston Globe article quoting his study that concluded that each new federally-funded highway passing through a central city "reduces its population by about 18 percent." The implication of this type of data-driven evidence of the effect of highway construction on cities is often hard to find, so we went to the source. --> The full text of this article appears in today?s World Streets at http://WorldStreets.org/ --> No broadband? No problem. Find it on the Open Edition at www.open.WorldStreets.org -- > Discussions on World Streets Forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldStreets (Post to WorldStreets@yahoogroups.com ) Read World Streets Today at http://www.worldstreets.org/ & www.open.worldstreets.org New Mobility Partnerships ? http://www.newmobility.org 8/10 rue Joseph Bara, 75006 Paris, France, Europe +331 4326 1323 eric.britton(at)newmobility.org Skype: newmobility From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Thu Mar 25 22:28:08 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:28:08 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? In-Reply-To: <683ba1ca1003250508w49835c69p462404e29eb91214@mail.gmail.com> References: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C079BF938@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> <6e4025ad1003250433q1179b0f1yd5e5c6bebac19617@mail.gmail.com> <683ba1ca1003250508w49835c69p462404e29eb91214@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01c601cacc1f$04654a80$0d2fdf80$@britton@ecoplan.org> If I may keep going on this a bit because it is, you have to admit, coming along very nicely. What are we seeing here? At least two things I would suggest. . First (and this is very neat), let's never never allow ourselves to become a prisoner of someone else's language or choice of (loaded?) terms, by which I mean some largely accepted, perhaps insufficiently questioned definition of a term. Declare independence and define it for yourself. a. This is working out very nicely here as we are hearing about lots of ways to share cars, and some of the reasons why it's not a bad option. Even for the Global South. The entire conversation becomes much richer and more useful for policy purposes when we pursue it in this way. b. Can someone remind me of our list thus far of what we define as "carsharing": taxis, shared taxis (by many names), rent a car, rent a driver, rickshaws, auto rickshaws . . . and have I missed anything. c. What they have in common is that there are what one might call "initiative responses" to the felt need for mobility. DRST - Demand Responsive Small Transit. No one had to go to MIT to plan them or to the World Bank to pay for them, but there they are out on the street every day getting people to where they want to go (most of the time). And they provide jobs. . And now the second point, which is we are hearing informally why "carsharing" by whatever flavor is for some a preferred option to own-car ownership and operation. I am hearing things like, it's cheaper, more convenient, saves time, avoids the danger/boredom of driving a car in traffic, no parking problems, more democratic, more social, avoiding elitism . . . (Then there is the matter of all that is wrong with them and how to fix it, but that is for another day.) a. It would be great if those of you who have chosen to be "car free" might share with us a simple list of your reasons, perhaps in the order you feel them. Then we could look at the lot and perhaps an idea or two would come out of it. Thank you all so much. From Lwright at vivacities.org Thu Mar 25 22:46:03 2010 From: Lwright at vivacities.org (Lloyd Wright) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 21:46:03 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? In-Reply-To: <47a72ec51003250413h4efa4141s959671d58ff9fe63@mail.gmail.com> References: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C079BF938@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> <47a72ec51003250413h4efa4141s959671d58ff9fe63@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001301cacc21$86a35a80$93ea0f80$@org> Of course, if a driver takes you to work and then returns to the trip origin to park, one has effectively doubled the kilometers for every trip...and doubled the emissions. This by the way is the same problem when there is no scholar transport and each parent individually takes their child to school. A single trip purpose requires double the distance. -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+lwright=vivacities.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+lwright=vivacities.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Cornie Huizenga Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 19:13 To: Madhav Pai Cc: Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? Dear All, For the last 13 years I have lived in Asia without owning a car. Fir 10 years in Manila I did what Madhav described - take a car with driver so that you don't have problems with parking. One reason for taking car with driver was that taxis were unreliable. I am certain that in this manner I avoided a lot of kilometers compared to having a car myself. Cornie On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 6:27 PM, Madhav Pai wrote: > A form of car sharing in India very prevalent. > > In most cities you can rent a car/with a driver (half day:4 hours), full > day: 8-12 hours, few days even a few months). The cars are available in > all sizes small sedans to mini vans. The rates are pretty much fixed > across the country. It usually starts at 4 Hours, 40 Kms is 400 Rs (10 > USD) for a low small sedan. > > Car ownership may vary between from one car (owner/driver) to a few > thousand cars. > There is also an increasing number of fleet managers. That take these > cars from individual owners/drivers, use technology elements (GPS > tracking), call center etc and make them available to offices/companies. > > > Would you call this car sharing? > > It would be interesting to study if the availability of these cars > - prevent people from buying cars > - do they end up buying smaller cars for city use and renting these > bigger cars for long trips > - what percentage of car use in our cities are these shared cars? > - if one these large companies could transform themselves into > membership based car sharing entities. > > > Sincerely; > Madhav Pai > Technical Director > EMBARQ - India > From eschlaikjer at wri.org Thu Mar 25 22:56:01 2010 From: eschlaikjer at wri.org (Erica Schlaikjer) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 09:56:01 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? In-Reply-To: <683ba1ca1003250508w49835c69p462404e29eb91214@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In regards to the role of auto rickshaws in India, I recommend that you read Megan McConville's latest post on TheCityFix: http://thecityfix.com/the-role-of-auto-rickshaws-in-modern-indian-cities/ On 3/25/10 8:08 AM, "Sarath Guttikunda" wrote: > to the car-less list. > > I do not own a car and use the autorickshaws, bus, or rent-a-car, depending > on how many meetings I have and the accessibility of transport at various > locations. This saves me time from looking for parking, sitting behind the > wheel in congestion cursing the driver ahead of me, honking non-stop in hope > that the sound energy will some how transform the congested roads to lift > the cars into the air, and gives me time to read the papers. > > Then, there was a statement last week by the Delhi Chief Minister, to ban > the Autorickshaws. > > Is this good for promoting car-sharing? > > Yes, the autorickshaw drivers can be annoying and at times, hard to bargain > with. Nevertheless, once in the routine and have an idea of the distances > and prices, one learns to bargains. > > I am not talking from the perspective of the drivers and their incomes, but > from the mobility perspective. Yes, the autorickshaws move slower than the > regular-new-model-cars-and-suvs. But, they move people as much as the cars. > Without providing an adequate alternative, like at least doubling of the > public transport system, this is a sorry move. > > Same goes for the car-sharing or taxis in the city. Too few. > > Even after the metro becomes operational in Delhi, the role of autorickshaws > will garner a more prominent role in shuttling passengers between stations > to the residential and commercial neighborhoods. For example, take a look at > the two wheeler service in Bangkok at the sky train stations. Even, in > Mumbai, the concept of the shared taxis at the subway stations. An effective > service for the public, especially for the short trips, and an integrated > multi-modal transport system. > > With regards, > Sarath > > -- > Sarath Guttikunda > New Delhi, India > Phone: +91 9891 315 946 > @ http://www.urbanemissions.info > @ http://www.dri.edu/People/Sarath.Guttikunda/ > > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 5:03 PM, Jains wrote: > >> Interesting point, Madhav. >> >> I have recently moved to India after living for 15 years in Hong Kong and >> enjoying a very good public transport system. >> >> In my quest to live car-less (which I must admit is not very easy in >> Mumbai), I am a regular user of rent-a-car system that you mention below. >> They are usually quite reliable. With phone numbers of a few of such >> providers stored in my phone, I have always managed to arrange one or the >> other. Has it prevented me to purchase a car? So far, yes. But when one >> looks at the public transport alternatives available, it is not very >> difficult for anybody who can afford to get convinced to purchase a car and >> use it regularly. >> >> Regards >> Alok Jain >> >> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:57 PM, Madhav Pai wrote: >> >>> A form of car sharing in India very prevalent. >>> >>> In most cities you can rent a car/with a driver (half day:4 hours), full >>> day: 8-12 hours, few days even a few months). The cars are available in >>> all sizes small sedans to mini vans. The rates are pretty much fixed >>> across the country. It usually starts at 4 Hours, 40 Kms is 400 Rs (10 >>> USD) for a low small sedan. >>> >>> Car ownership may vary between from one car (owner/driver) to a few >>> thousand cars. >>> There is also an increasing number of fleet managers. That take these >>> cars from individual owners/drivers, use technology elements (GPS >>> tracking), call center etc and make them available to offices/companies. >>> >>> >>> Would you call this car sharing? >>> >>> It would be interesting to study if the availability of these cars >>> - prevent people from buying cars >>> - do they end up buying smaller cars for city use and renting these >>> bigger cars for long trips >>> - what percentage of car use in our cities are these shared cars? >>> - if one these large companies could transform themselves into >>> membership based car sharing entities. >>> >>> >>> Sincerely; >>> Madhav Pai >>> Technical Director >>> EMBARQ - India >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+mpai=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org >>> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+mpai >>> = >>> wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf >>> Of Eric Britton >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:05 PM >>> To: Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >>> Subject: [sustran] Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? >>> >>> Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? >>> >>> Should be transportation planners and policymakers working in cities the >>> developing world be taking the time to follow developments in other >>> places so that they are fully informed about planning and policy matters >>> as necessary for ensuring successful carsharing in their cities and >>> countries. >>> >>> We think they should. We (I guess that means me, but not really since I >>> know I am not alone in this) firmly believe that carsharing is a >>> practical transportation alternative that is relevant for just about >>> every place in the world where there are people who need to have access >>> to cars (and vans and trucks). It is not only a proven low carbon way to >>> have access to and use cars, but it makes economic sense for most >>> people, and (when it works >>> properly) is a lot more convenient to boot. >>> >>> So please keep up on carshare developments world wide and bear it in >>> mind that carsharing is "the last nail in the coffin of old mobility". >>> >>> Eric Britton >>> >>> For the World Carshare Consortium at >>> www.worldcarshare.com >>> >>> >>> >>> Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. >>> >>> World Streets . www.worldstreets.org >>> Open Edition: www.open.worldstreets.org 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris >>> 75006 France >>> +331 7550 3788 . >>> eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility >>> New Mobility Partnerships . >>> www.partners.newmobility.org >>> 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 >>> +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . >>> Skype ericbritton >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >>> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >>> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >>> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >>> >>> ================================================================ >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >>> (the 'Global South'). >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >>> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >>> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >>> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >>> >>> ================================================================ >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >>> (the 'Global South'). >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable > and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global > South'). -- Erica Schlaikjer Media Relations and Online Engagement Coordinator EMBARQ ? The WRI Center for Sustainable Transport World Resources Institute Mail: 10 G Street NE, Suite 800, Washington, DC, 20002 Phone: (202) 729-7722 Fax: (202) 729-7775 Email: eschlaikjer@wri.org Website: www.EMBARQ.org Blog: www.TheCityFix.com Follow me: www.twitter.com/EMBARQNetwork www.twitter.com/TheCityFix Be our fan on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/EMBARQ/63736313585 From zvi.leve at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 23:15:14 2010 From: zvi.leve at gmail.com (Zvi Leve) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:15:14 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? In-Reply-To: References: <-5129345260036287943@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: I agree that 'taxis' and other 'professional' driver fleets are already filling this roll to some extent, and this certainly could be developed further to make such systems more efficient. Another point which has not been mentioned (yet) is that car-sharing presumes that people actually know how to drive a car (or a motorcycle, or whatever vehicle it is that is being shared)! People surrounded by cars and car-culture tend to assume that everyone knows how to drive, but this is not necessarily the case. Learning to drive requires a significant investment of time and resources in and of itself. Once the effort to learn how to drive has been undertaken, one can assume that the person who has made such an effort will have a strong incentive to make the additional investment to acquire their own vehicle. Which begs the question, is teaching people how to drive a good investment of limited resources? Interesting discussion.... Cheers, Zvi On 24 March 2010 10:55, Roger Gorham wrote: > Eric, > > OK, I'll bite. I think that the question really depends on what you mean > by > car-"sharing" and what prevailing wage rates are (which itself ultimately > depends on whether you are talking about middle, low, or very-low income > countries). > > If by car-sharing you mean having relatively hassle-free access to > automobility without the need to own and maintain a car by people with > means > to otherwise do so, then most cities in the global "south" already have > car-sharing. They are called taxis. The main function of car-sharing is > to > variabilize a formerly fixed or sunk cost. In many low- and very > low-income > countries with very low wage rates, it is hard to envision a circumstance > in > which the variabilized costs of access to a fleet of self-drive vehicles > could be made to be lower than the already-variabilized costs of access to > taxis. > > Perhaps there would be certain niche markets in which some wealthier middle > and upper-middle class people in low-income countries might prefer to take > a > well-maintained self-drive fleet vehicle than use a (often poorly > maintained) taxi, but this niche would barely make a dent on overall urban > mobility, and even there, I cannot envision a circumstance where you could > convince these people in large numbers to choose car-sharing over owning > their own vehicle. > > Car-sharing becomes more viable the higher your average wage rates, so I > think your suggestion for transportation planners and policy makers to > follow development elsewhere would only make sense (perhaps) for middle > income countries. > > Roger Gorham > > > From joshirutul at yahoo.co.in Fri Mar 26 01:00:36 2010 From: joshirutul at yahoo.co.in (Rutul Joshi) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 21:30:36 +0530 (IST) Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? In-Reply-To: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C079BF938@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> References: <01c801cacb2c$e53ead10$afbc0730$@britton@ecoplan.org> <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C079BF938@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Message-ID: <130875.52712.qm@web8403.mail.in.yahoo.com> In Indian context, one sees wider range of informal practices of vehicle sharing which often do not get recorded. One of the most intersting one is the auto-rickshaw sharing which I have closely seen in Ahmedabad and in smaller towns of the Gujarat state. Most of the auto-rickshaw drivers have mobile phones and I know many families who call them often. Nothing is formalised here and the Auto-driver belonging to the neighbourhood or known through someone is more reliable and assumed to be a safer choice, especially for the women. The working women almost regularly call auto-rickshaws to drop them/to pick them up in groups. The cost are shared and thus, it becomes affordable for a regular practice. In fact, it gives tough competition to public transport in smaller cities. I also know some friends who use these auto-rickshaws on call (instead of taxis) to access the airport and the railway stations. The Autos would be cheaper and as efficient option. It becomes even more affordable and useful in smaller Indian cities which lacks good public transport. The mobile phones have made the auto-drivers more enterprising. Informal social networks take care of safety and other issues. I believe, the debates about 'car sharing' should be broadly defined as 'mode sharing' or 'vehicle sharing'. There are lot of interesting informal practices which needs to be researched. cheers, Rutul. Rutul Joshi, Lecturer, Faculty of Planning and Public Policy (on study leave) CEPT University, Ahmedabad - 380 009. www.spcept.ac.in ________________________________ From: Madhav Pai To: Eric Britton ; Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Sent: Thu, 25 March, 2010 10:27:48 AM Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? A form of car sharing in India very prevalent. In most cities you can rent a car/with a driver (half day:4 hours), full day: 8-12 hours, few days even a few months). The cars are available in all sizes small sedans to mini vans. The rates are pretty much fixed across the country. It usually starts at 4 Hours, 40 Kms is 400 Rs (10 USD) for a low small sedan. Car ownership may vary between from one car (owner/driver) to a few thousand cars. There is also an increasing number of fleet managers. That take these cars from individual owners/drivers, use technology elements (GPS tracking), call center etc and make them available to offices/companies. Would you call this car sharing? It would be interesting to study if the availability of these cars - prevent people from buying cars - do they end up buying smaller cars for city use and renting these bigger cars for long trips - what percentage of car use in our cities are these shared cars? - if one these large companies could transform themselves into membership based car sharing entities. Sincerely; Madhav Pai Technical Director EMBARQ - India -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+mpai=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+mpai=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Eric Britton Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:05 PM To: Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? Should be transportation planners and policymakers working in cities the developing world be taking the time to follow developments in other places so that they are fully informed about planning and policy matters as necessary for ensuring successful carsharing in their cities and countries. We think they should. We (I guess that means me, but not really since I know I am not alone in this) firmly believe that carsharing is a practical transportation alternative that is relevant for just about every place in the world where there are people who need to have access to cars (and vans and trucks). It is not only a proven low carbon way to have access to and use cars, but it makes economic sense for most people, and (when it works properly) is a lot more convenient to boot. So please keep up on carshare developments world wide and bear it in mind that carsharing is "the last nail in the coffin of old mobility". Eric Britton For the World Carshare Consortium at www.worldcarshare.com Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. World Streets . www.worldstreets.org Open Edition: www.open.worldstreets.org 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/ From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Fri Mar 26 04:37:46 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 20:37:46 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Le origini e la diffusione del car sharing in Italia
The... Message-ID: <034f01cacc52$aab9d350$002d79f0$@britton@ecoplan.org> Le origini e la diffusione del car sharing in Italia The origins and structure of Car Sharing in Italy With this latest report from our Italian sister publication Nuova Mobilit?, we put before you our second article on the growth and status of carsharing in Italy. Italy, as you will see here, has a very different development trajectory from most of the rest of Europe or North America. What else in new? La creativit? italiana But this time we are not going to help out with an edited version of the machine translation, rather we are going to give you the first few paragraphs of the machine translation, and then the links so that you can read the entire report in either the original Italian or what we think is a pretty good machine transition into English. If you want to know, you will know. --> The full text of this article appears in today?s World Streets at http://WorldStreets.org/ --> No broadband? No problem. Find it on the Open Edition at www.open.WorldStreets.org -- > Discussions on World Streets Forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldStreets (Post to WorldStreets@yahoogroups.com ) Read World Streets Today at http://www.worldstreets.org/ & www.open.worldstreets.org New Mobility Partnerships ? http://www.newmobility.org 8/10 rue Joseph Bara, 75006 Paris, France, Europe +331 4326 1323 eric.britton(at)newmobility.org Skype: newmobility From krc12353 at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 01:03:24 2010 From: krc12353 at gmail.com (Karthik Rao Cavale) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:03:24 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? In-Reply-To: <683ba1ca1003250508w49835c69p462404e29eb91214@mail.gmail.com> References: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C079BF938@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> <6e4025ad1003250433q1179b0f1yd5e5c6bebac19617@mail.gmail.com> <683ba1ca1003250508w49835c69p462404e29eb91214@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1effb6e51003250903q4941d5fj547f475c172f6a35@mail.gmail.com> As for the ubiquitousness of vehicle-sharing in India, I have a personal story to share. I lived in Navi Mumbai for six months before coming to the United States for my Masters in Urban Planning. While I was there, I used to learn vocal music from a great Indian classical musician called Ustad Fariduddin Dagar . His Gurukul (traditionally, a place where students would go to stay with their Gurus) was five kilometers away from the last station in the Mumbai suburban railway system on the harbour line - Panvel. This Gurukulwas on the road to Palaspe, still only a village, and the house itself was in the middle of nowhere. The only way of commuting to his house was to take a share-rickshaw that ferried people from Palaspe to Panvel station and back. So, every Sunday, I would wake up at 5 am so that I can reach before 8 am to do my *riyaaz* in my Guru's presence (8 am was quite late in the day by the standards of Indian Classical Music). From my house in Kharghar, I would wait for a bus (or I would hire a three-wheeler if I were feeling rich that day) to the train station. Then I would take the train to Panvel, after which I would have to wait, often for half an hour, for the share-rickshaw to fill up with passengers. By the time it was filled up, the auto would look something like this. (And I've attached a map of my trip that can be opened on Google Earth) It was a 16 km trip, but it would take me about two hours to complete. Because I was male, and young, I would almost always have to share the front seat with the driver. It was perhaps a little more thigh-contact than what I had bargained for, and one did stand the risk of falling off when the rickshaw made a steep turn. But I always tried to think in terms of systemic failures, rather than in terms of personal grievances. I was not exactly poor, and this was a discretionary trip (and I am ashamed to say that I did forego this trip very often, risking my Guru's disapproval). But I tried to think of others for whom the daily trip from Palaspe to Panvel was not a discretionary trip and who were not as comfortably placed as I was. The bus ride from my house to the station cost me 5 Rs. (10 cents) The train ticket would be about 5 Rs. more, and the share auto would charge 7 Rs. for a ride to the point where I got off. A total of 34 Rs for a round trip. If I took an auto from home to the train station, I would spend 25 Rs. extra. Additionally, if I took a "personal" auto from the Panvel station to my Guru's house, I would spend 43 Rs. more. So, in total, even though I would travel from Panvel to Kharghar by train, I would end up spending 170 Rs. I was not poor, but even I couldn't afford that much money for one round trip. So what am I saying? The point I am trying to make is that Palaspe might never get sufficiently populated to get train connectivity. But there is still going to be a great deal of demand for shared vehicles which act as a feeder service to Panvel. That demand already exists, and even though policymakers don't like the idea of allowing vehicles that should ideally be off the roads because of their emission-ratings, that too with such a large number of passengers, one has to think in terms of creating alternatives for them. We need to think multi-modal. And we need to be creating solutions for places outside the inner city, because mobility is a really large issue in the outer suburbs and this barely gets addressed in sustainable transport circles, because we continue obsessed with the inner cities. I hope my story wasn't a drag. karthik On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 8:08 AM, Sarath Guttikunda wrote: > to the car-less list. > > I do not own a car and use the autorickshaws, bus, or rent-a-car, depending > on how many meetings I have and the accessibility of transport at various > locations. This saves me time from looking for parking, sitting behind the > wheel in congestion cursing the driver ahead of me, honking non-stop in > hope > that the sound energy will some how transform the congested roads to lift > the cars into the air, and gives me time to read the papers. > > Then, there was a statement last week by the Delhi Chief Minister, to ban > the Autorickshaws. > > Is this good for promoting car-sharing? > > Yes, the autorickshaw drivers can be annoying and at times, hard to bargain > with. Nevertheless, once in the routine and have an idea of the distances > and prices, one learns to bargains. > > I am not talking from the perspective of the drivers and their incomes, but > from the mobility perspective. Yes, the autorickshaws move slower than the > regular-new-model-cars-and-suvs. But, they move people as much as the cars. > Without providing an adequate alternative, like at least doubling of the > public transport system, this is a sorry move. > > Same goes for the car-sharing or taxis in the city. Too few. > > Even after the metro becomes operational in Delhi, the role of > autorickshaws > will garner a more prominent role in shuttling passengers between stations > to the residential and commercial neighborhoods. For example, take a look > at > the two wheeler service in Bangkok at the sky train stations. Even, in > Mumbai, the concept of the shared taxis at the subway stations. An > effective > service for the public, especially for the short trips, and an integrated > multi-modal transport system. > > With regards, > Sarath > > -- > Sarath Guttikunda > New Delhi, India > Phone: +91 9891 315 946 > @ http://www.urbanemissions.info > @ http://www.dri.edu/People/Sarath.Guttikunda/ > > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 5:03 PM, Jains wrote: > > > Interesting point, Madhav. > > > > I have recently moved to India after living for 15 years in Hong Kong and > > enjoying a very good public transport system. > > > > In my quest to live car-less (which I must admit is not very easy in > > Mumbai), I am a regular user of rent-a-car system that you mention below. > > They are usually quite reliable. With phone numbers of a few of such > > providers stored in my phone, I have always managed to arrange one or the > > other. Has it prevented me to purchase a car? So far, yes. But when one > > looks at the public transport alternatives available, it is not very > > difficult for anybody who can afford to get convinced to purchase a car > and > > use it regularly. > > > > Regards > > Alok Jain > > > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:57 PM, Madhav Pai wrote: > > > > > A form of car sharing in India very prevalent. > > > > > > In most cities you can rent a car/with a driver (half day:4 hours), > full > > > day: 8-12 hours, few days even a few months). The cars are available in > > > all sizes small sedans to mini vans. The rates are pretty much fixed > > > across the country. It usually starts at 4 Hours, 40 Kms is 400 Rs (10 > > > USD) for a low small sedan. > > > > > > Car ownership may vary between from one car (owner/driver) to a few > > > thousand cars. > > > There is also an increasing number of fleet managers. That take these > > > cars from individual owners/drivers, use technology elements (GPS > > > tracking), call center etc and make them available to > offices/companies. > > > > > > > > > Would you call this car sharing? > > > > > > It would be interesting to study if the availability of these cars > > > - prevent people from buying cars > > > - do they end up buying smaller cars for city use and renting these > > > bigger cars for long trips > > > - what percentage of car use in our cities are these shared cars? > > > - if one these large companies could transform themselves into > > > membership based car sharing entities. > > > > > > > > > Sincerely; > > > Madhav Pai > > > Technical Director > > > EMBARQ - India > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+mpai=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > > > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+mpai = > > > wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf > > > Of Eric Britton > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:05 PM > > > To: Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > > > Subject: [sustran] Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? > > > > > > Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? > > > > > > Should be transportation planners and policymakers working in cities > the > > > developing world be taking the time to follow developments in other > > > places so that they are fully informed about planning and policy > matters > > > as necessary for ensuring successful carsharing in their cities and > > > countries. > > > > > > We think they should. We (I guess that means me, but not really since I > > > know I am not alone in this) firmly believe that carsharing is a > > > practical transportation alternative that is relevant for just about > > > every place in the world where there are people who need to have access > > > to cars (and vans and trucks). It is not only a proven low carbon way > to > > > have access to and use cars, but it makes economic sense for most > > > people, and (when it works > > > properly) is a lot more convenient to boot. > > > > > > So please keep up on carshare developments world wide and bear it in > > > mind that carsharing is "the last nail in the coffin of old mobility". > > > > > > Eric Britton > > > > > > For the World Carshare Consortium at > > > www.worldcarshare.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > > > > > World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > > > Open Edition: www.open.worldstreets.org 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . > Paris > > > 75006 France > > > +331 7550 3788 . > > > eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility > > > New Mobility Partnerships . > > > www.partners.newmobility.org > > > 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > > > +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org. > > > Skype ericbritton > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real > > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > > > ================================================================ > > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > > (the 'Global South'). > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real > > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > > > ================================================================ > > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Palaspe tour.kmz Type: application/vnd.google-earth.kmz Size: 8968 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20100325/3283fd8a/Palaspetour.bin From ashok.sreenivas at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 11:29:42 2010 From: ashok.sreenivas at gmail.com (Ashok Sreenivas) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 07:59:42 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? In-Reply-To: <130875.52712.qm@web8403.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <01c801cacb2c$e53ead10$afbc0730$@britton@ecoplan.org> <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C079BF938@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> <130875.52712.qm@web8403.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BAC1C16.4050000@gmail.com> Dear Rutul (and others) No discussion on car-sharing or vehicle-sharing in Gujarat can be complete without including the uniquely Gujarati invention: the chakda!! http://specials.rediff.com/election/2004/apr/16sld1.jpg http://forum.60kph.com/userpix/340_GRK_033_1.jpg And then there are the jeep services that penetrate parts of the country that are not touched (or at least not touched well) by public transport services. These are very common in Maharashtra and something of which I have availed often enough in the past (including sharing the trailer of a pickup with some cattle once). http://farm1.static.flickr.com/50/119165877_cfdc98aa94.jpg?v=0 http://thumb15.shutterstock.com.edgesuite.net/display_pic_with_logo/196486/196486,1207787192,3/stock-photo-people-traveling-in-over-crowded-jeeps-is-common-in-western-india-11338222.jpg Yes, there are many innovative car-sharing or vehicle-sharing schemes in operation outside (or at the peripheries of) our cities. Ashok On 25/03/2010 9:30 PM, Rutul Joshi wrote: > In Indian context, one sees wider range of informal practices of vehicle sharing which often do not get recorded. One of the most intersting one is the auto-rickshaw sharing which I have closely seen in Ahmedabad and in smaller towns of the Gujarat state. > > Most of the auto-rickshaw drivers have mobile phones and I know many > families who call them often. Nothing is formalised here and the > Auto-driver belonging to the neighbourhood or known through someone is > more reliable and assumed to be a safer choice, especially for the > women. The working women almost regularly call auto-rickshaws to drop > them/to pick them up in groups. The cost are shared and thus, it becomes affordable for a regular practice. In fact, it gives tough competition > to public transport in smaller cities. I also know some friends who use > these auto-rickshaws on call (instead of taxis) to access the airport > and the railway stations. The Autos would be cheaper and as efficient > option. It becomes even more affordable and useful in smaller Indian > cities which lacks good public transport. The mobile phones have made > the auto-drivers more enterprising. Informal social networks take care > of safety and other issues. > > I believe, the debates about 'car sharing' should be broadly defined as > 'mode sharing' or 'vehicle sharing'. There are lot of interesting > informal practices which needs to be researched. > > cheers, > Rutul. > > > > > > Rutul Joshi, > Lecturer, Faculty of Planning and > Public Policy (on study leave) > CEPT University, Ahmedabad - 380 009. > www.spcept.ac.in > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Madhav Pai > To: Eric Britton ; Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Sent: Thu, 25 March, 2010 10:27:48 AM > Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? > > A form of car sharing in India very prevalent. > > In most cities you can rent a car/with a driver (half day:4 hours), full > day: 8-12 hours, few days even a few months). The cars are available in > all sizes small sedans to mini vans. The rates are pretty much fixed > across the country. It usually starts at 4 Hours, 40 Kms is 400 Rs (10 > USD) for a low small sedan. > > Car ownership may vary between from one car (owner/driver) to a few > thousand cars. > There is also an increasing number of fleet managers. That take these > cars from individual owners/drivers, use technology elements (GPS > tracking), call center etc and make them available to offices/companies. > > > Would you call this car sharing? > > It would be interesting to study if the availability of these cars > - prevent people from buying cars > - do they end up buying smaller cars for city use and renting these > bigger cars for long trips > - what percentage of car use in our cities are these shared cars? > - if one these large companies could transform themselves into > membership based car sharing entities. > > > Sincerely; > Madhav Pai > Technical Director > EMBARQ - India > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+mpai=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+mpai=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf > Of Eric Britton > Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:05 PM > To: Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? > > Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? > > Should be transportation planners and policymakers working in cities the > developing world be taking the time to follow developments in other > places so that they are fully informed about planning and policy matters > as necessary for ensuring successful carsharing in their cities and > countries. > > We think they should. We (I guess that means me, but not really since I > know I am not alone in this) firmly believe that carsharing is a > practical transportation alternative that is relevant for just about > every place in the world where there are people who need to have access > to cars (and vans and trucks). It is not only a proven low carbon way to > have access to and use cars, but it makes economic sense for most > people, and (when it works > properly) is a lot more convenient to boot. > > So please keep up on carshare developments world wide and bear it in > mind that carsharing is "the last nail in the coffin of old mobility". > > Eric Britton > > For the World Carshare Consortium at > www.worldcarshare.com > > > > Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. > > World Streets . www.worldstreets.org > Open Edition: www.open.worldstreets.org 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris > 75006 France > +331 7550 3788 . > eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility > New Mobility Partnerships . > www.partners.newmobility.org > 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 > +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . > Skype ericbritton > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/ > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Fri Mar 26 16:29:19 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:29:19 +0100 Subject: [sustran] PRT Industry Update: "Brilliant Fun," Saves Climate Message-ID: <009301caccb6$1245a9f0$36d0fdd0$@britton@ecoplan.org> ??? Comment invited. Be brave. Eric Britton From: steveraneyc21 [mailto:steve_raney@cities21.org] Sent: Friday, 26 March, 2010 04:13 To: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com Subject: PRT Industry Update: "Brilliant Fun," Saves Climate Q1 2010 Update: PRT (personal rapid transit) is an electric, 200-mpg-equivalent, elevated transit system with many four-person vehicles. Working as NICHE circulator transit for office parks, airports, universities, entertainment centers, and other major activity centers, PRT is faster than a car. In these applications, PRT makes carpooling, iPooling, light rail, commuter rail, bus, carsharing, and bike more effective, by solving the "last mile problem." Highlights: * BBC: World's first PRT passenger: "Something from a James Bond movie. A serious bit of kit. It's so Star Trek. Incredibly quiet, smooth. Not quite normal. Brilliant fun." * Minnesota: "We need to explore innovative strategies that are efficient and cost-effective and can improve motorists' commutes. We owe it to the citizens of our state to keep on the leading edge of technology and present these options to them." * San Jose: "San Jose, as the Capital of Silicon Valley, is stepping into a leadership role to help further the development of innovative transit technologies that have the potential to reshape how we move in the future and organize our cities in a more sustainable and livable way." * Times of London: "One of 20 proven ways to save the earth." * UK Sustainable Development Commission: "The ultimate in changing travel behavior." * Architecture: PRT fosters invention and innovation. PRT's svelte, elevated form enables low-impact threading through a 420-year-old city where other modes cannot pass. SketchUp 3D PRT models available to anyone with talent/creativity. * First youtube look at 2gethere PRT running at Masdar Ecocity * 17 vehicles at London Heathrow ULTra PRT * Vectus PRT's Suncheon (S. Korea) MOU. * Harvard Biz School case study: "PRT creates huge value: reducing automobile congestion, and getting passengers to their desired destinations more quickly and more reliably." DETAILS: 1. BBC's very popular Inside Out program covered the ULTra London Heathrow system, with reporter Josie d'Arby serving as the first member of the public to take a ride. "Something from a James Bond movie. A serious bit of kit. It's so Star Trek. Incredibly quiet, smooth. Not quite normal. It's weird, completely weird. Brilliant fun." Featured in the segment are ATS Founder Martin Lowson, ATS CEO Phil Smith, BAA PRT Manager David Holdcroft ("Very green. Really good passenger service. Fun."), and ATS Vehicle Manager Adam Ruddle. Available are: BBC's news story and program transcript and stills. BBC's video material is unfortunately not viewable within the US. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8377030.stm, http://www.ultraprt.net/cms/index.php?page=bbc-brilliant-fun 2. Minnesota's DOT launched a significant PRT effort. MN Transportation Commissioner Tom Sorel: "PRT systems are being developed around the world. We need to explore innovative strategies that are efficient and cost-effective and can improve motorists' commutes. We owe it to the citizens of our state to keep on the leading edge of technology and present these options to them." Sorel said he's had many discussions about PRT with Governor Tim Pawlenty, who he said supports exploring PRT. PRT system concept sketches are provided for Edina, St. Paul, and Rochester. http://www.ultraprt.net/mn.htm 3. Not to be outdone, San Jose trumpeted US PRT leadership. Hans Larsen, Acting Director, San Jose DOT on PRT: "San Jose, as the Capital of Silicon Valley, is stepping into a leadership role to help further the development of innovative transit technologies that have the potential to reshape how we move in the future and organize our cities in a more sustainable and livable way. Silicon Valley is the innovation center of the world and it would be a natural fit for Silicon Valley to be the epicenter for developing new, modern transit technology. Constructing a PRT system would advance a number of the City's high-priority goals, including advancing San Jose's Green Vision goals supporting technological innovation, and improving the effectiveness of the City's existing transit network." http://gas2.org/2009/12/09/san-jose-to-participate-in-sustainable-transporta tion-conference-in-sweden/ 4. Times of London lists PRT as one of 20 climate-saving solutions in their Sunday feature article entitled "20 proven ways to save the earth." http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6931775.ece 5. The UK Sustainable Development Commission concluded that PRT is "the ultimate in changing vehicle behavior," as published in the report entitled: "Smarter Moves: How Information Communications Technology can promote Sustainable Mobility." http://www.sd-commission.org.uk/publications.php?id=1050 6. Architectural Innovations. PRT has created a brand new architectural arena of invention and innovation. ATS ULTra's recent Bath Design Competition explored theoretical options for placing PRT within a historically sensitive city founded in 1590. PRT's svelte, elevated form enables low-impact threading where other modes cannot pass. PRT guideway can be easily tailored to blend in with the most architecturally challenging backdrops. As evidenced by the many submissions, architects enjoy working with PRT. Many of the submissions presented first-of-its-kind concepts. http://www.ultraprt.net/cms/index.php?page=architecture-innovations Google SketchUp 3D ULTra PRT models are available. Models for guideway, stations, and vehicles are available for download with specifications, design guidelines, and instructions. Sample customizations are suggested. SketchUp was designed to be very easy to use. http://www.ultraprt.net/cms/index.php?page=sketchup-3d-models 7. First youtube look at 2gethere PRT running at Masdar Ecocity. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDzq-lqe8_c 8. Vectus PRT's Suncheon (South Korea) MOU for a first system. PDF: http://tinyurl.com/y959sux 9. 17 vehicles at London Heathrow ULTra PRT. As of Feb 16, there were 17 vehicles at the London Heathrow ULTra site. A youtube video shows six vehicles participating in a test traveling between the three Heathrow stations. All system components (including automatic berth doors, vehicle charging, and passenger destination selection kiosks) are fully operational. "In 2010 we will progress through a comprehensive series of confidence-building passenger trials, as we move towards the commencement of public operations in the first half of the year" - Phil Smith, ATS ULTra CEO. http://www.atsltd.co.uk/news/55/85/Multi-Vehicle-Testing-at-Heathrow/ New Heathrow pictures show Terminal 5 station details, Business Car Park station details, destination selection kiosks, the vehicle maintenance/storage depot, control room operation, and control room CCTV. http://www.ultraprt.net/cms/LHRimagesFeb10.htm 10. Harvard Business School Professor Benjamin Edelman recently published a case study on PRT: "Business and communities small and large are increasingly aware of PRT as a `green' solution to multiple transportation problems from (in)convenience to price to congestion. I'm convinced that PRT creates huge value-reducing automobile congestion, and getting passengers to their desired destinations more quickly and more reliably. I'm particularly struck by the use of PRT to increase the value of land that might otherwise be viewed as undesirable. Consider a parcel that's a bit beyond walking distance from the subway, restaurants, and the like. Right now, a developer must accept a dramatically reduced price for that kind of land. But PRT could connect outlying buildings directly to a subway platform and a restaurant district." http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/6333.html Source: http://www.cities21.org/cms/index.php?page=feb2010 Regards, Steve Raney, Palo Alto From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Sat Mar 27 03:57:03 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 19:57:03 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Bodhisattva in the metro Message-ID: <01fe01cacd16$22b0d7f0$681287d0$@britton@ecoplan.org> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_kbTo-M_pSuw/S6uxnscH7II/AAAAAAAACwE/ALKY0hzJPKk/s2 00/ws-metro.jpgBodhisattva in the metro The Sanskrit term Bodhisattva is the name given to anyone who, motivated by great compassion, has generated bodhichitta, which is a spontaneous wish to attain Buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings. What makes someone a Bodhisattva is her or his dedication to the ultimate welfare of other beings World Streets: It's not the destination, it's the voyage. --> The full text of this article appears in today's World Streets at http://WorldStreets.org/ --> No broadband? No problem. Find it on the Open Edition at www.open.WorldStreets.org -- > Discussions on World Streets Forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldStreets (Post to WorldStreets@yahoogroups.com ) Read World Streets Today at http://www.worldstreets.org/ & www.open.worldstreets.org New Mobility Partnerships - http://www.newmobility.org 8/10 rue Joseph Bara, 75006 Paris, France, Europe +331 4326 1323 eric.britton(at)newmobility.org Skype: newmobility -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 5745 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20100326/70d55a59/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 2810 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20100326/70d55a59/attachment-0001.jpe From sguttikunda at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 12:06:24 2010 From: sguttikunda at gmail.com (Sarath Guttikunda) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 08:36:24 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? In-Reply-To: <001301cacc21$86a35a80$93ea0f80$@org> References: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C079BF938@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> <47a72ec51003250413h4efa4141s959671d58ff9fe63@mail.gmail.com> <001301cacc21$86a35a80$93ea0f80$@org> Message-ID: <683ba1ca1003262006i17e3034bgdb511c26bcd2b9b@mail.gmail.com> Dear Lloyd, yes, this does not apply for people who use driver for pick-up and drop-off. It does double the vehicle kilometers traveled. Speaking of Delhi and some friends around here, In general, there is a tendency to promote telecommuting when possible and most of the big institutions have mini-bus services to pick-up and drop-off staff, which is a good practice, and needs promotion from the corporate side. With regards, Sarath -- Sarath Guttikunda New Delhi, India Phone: +91 9891 315 946 @ http://www.urbanemissions.info @ http://www.dri.edu/People/Sarath.Guttikunda/ On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 7:16 PM, Lloyd Wright wrote: > Of course, if a driver takes you to work and then returns to the trip > origin > to park, one has effectively doubled the kilometers for every trip...and > doubled the emissions. > > This by the way is the same problem when there is no scholar transport and > each parent individually takes their child to school. A single trip > purpose > requires double the distance. > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+lwright=vivacities.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+lwright > =vivacities.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of Cornie Huizenga > Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 19:13 > To: Madhav Pai > Cc: Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? > > Dear All, > > For the last 13 years I have lived in Asia without owning a car. > > Fir 10 years in Manila I did what Madhav described - take a car with driver > so that you don't have problems with parking. One reason for taking car > with driver was that taxis were unreliable. I am certain that in this > manner I avoided a lot of kilometers compared to having a car myself. > > Cornie > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 6:27 PM, Madhav Pai wrote: > > > A form of car sharing in India very prevalent. > > > > In most cities you can rent a car/with a driver (half day:4 hours), full > > day: 8-12 hours, few days even a few months). The cars are available in > > all sizes small sedans to mini vans. The rates are pretty much fixed > > across the country. It usually starts at 4 Hours, 40 Kms is 400 Rs (10 > > USD) for a low small sedan. > > > > Car ownership may vary between from one car (owner/driver) to a few > > thousand cars. > > There is also an increasing number of fleet managers. That take these > > cars from individual owners/drivers, use technology elements (GPS > > tracking), call center etc and make them available to offices/companies. > > > > > > Would you call this car sharing? > > > > It would be interesting to study if the availability of these cars > > - prevent people from buying cars > > - do they end up buying smaller cars for city use and renting these > > bigger cars for long trips > > - what percentage of car use in our cities are these shared cars? > > - if one these large companies could transform themselves into > > membership based car sharing entities. > > > > > > Sincerely; > > Madhav Pai > > Technical Director > > EMBARQ - India > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > From sguttikunda at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 12:19:48 2010 From: sguttikunda at gmail.com (Sarath Guttikunda) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 08:49:48 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Car-sharing vs. Other options? Message-ID: <683ba1ca1003262019u5d8cf246jb3c78c7221fec2c5@mail.gmail.com> it's good to see some discussion on furthering car-sharing. This depends on how one person orients his/her life style and still a personal choice. Why isn't there a similar push for the other modes. Quote from "Field of Dreams".. "if you build it, he will come". I am neither interested in building new roads nor BRT options. What if the cities were to double or triple the bus fleets, especially in Asia? (logistics of operations and maintenance aside) What does it take to persuade the city officials to focus on the pedestrian transport? Any transport policy document discusses these two options and yet, there is no dent towards implementing it. Comments? -- Sarath Guttikunda New Delhi, India Phone: +91 9891 315 946 @ http://www.urbanemissions.info @ http://www.dri.edu/People/Sarath.Guttikunda/ From Lwright at vivacities.org Sat Mar 27 12:41:03 2010 From: Lwright at vivacities.org (Lloyd Wright) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:41:03 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? In-Reply-To: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C07A5E398@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> References: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C079BF938@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local><47a72ec51003250413h4efa4141s959671d58ff9fe63@mail.gmail.com><001301cacc21$86a35a80$93ea0f80$@org> <683ba1ca1003262006i17e3034bgdb511c26bcd2b9b@mail.gmail.com> <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C07A5E398@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Message-ID: <000301cacd5f$54cfc450$fe6f4cf0$@org> Yes, the cost comparisons are interesting, but what are the environmental benefits? Auto-rickshaws and metered taxis spend much of their operating time with dead kilometers, i.e. kilometers spent looking for passengers rather than serving a useful trip. Chauffeured trips typically double the distance travelled. The corporate shuttles are okay (Google runs a pretty good service in the Bay area), but are these not really a sign that the public sector has failed to deliver a decent public transport? And by developing a closed elite service does this undermine the eventual creation of quality public transport by taking away passengers? Or alternatively, does it create a two-dimensional world of good corporate services and lousy public services? I would prefer to see the corporate firms pushing local government to develop a high-quality public system and contributing funds to that end (which is what Ayala Land wants to do in Manila). I think that car-sharing is an interesting concept that deserves continued study, but it seems like it should be a second priority compared to good quality public transport, NMT facilities, TDM measures, and smart growth land use. Car-sharing might just be a mechanism towards a slightly more benign form of private motorization. Maybe in places like the US where cars are already 90%+ mode share, car-sharing is the best one can hope. But does it make sense to push car-sharing in cities where over half the existing trips are public transport or NMT? Should not the first priority be improving the sustainable modes so that they do not collapse altogether? Best regards, Lloyd -----Original Message----- From: Lee Schipper [mailto:lschipper@wri.org] Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 11:13 To: Sarath Guttikunda; Lloyd Wright Cc: Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? I think the key issues are a bit different 1. What is the cost of getting a driver's license and insurance? Does car sharing include insurance? IS it worth investing in the license ONLY to use a car occasionally? 2. Or is car sharing just a kind of adaptation to car ownership, a first, somewhat less expensive step. The points made below about the cost of hiring a car/drive are well taken. Hidden in Cornie's point is a key reason that promotes car ownership -- free or almost free parking at work. But in a society where having a driver or taking a taxi is expensive, car ownership and a round trip to work may still be cheap compared to other means, particularly of the cost of ownership is now written off over 12 000 km/year. So I'm worried that car sharing is an inexpensive way towards becoming a car owner. Lee -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Sarath Guttikunda Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 8:06 PM To: Lloyd Wright Cc: Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? Dear Lloyd, yes, this does not apply for people who use driver for pick-up and drop-off. It does double the vehicle kilometers traveled. Speaking of Delhi and some friends around here, In general, there is a tendency to promote telecommuting when possible and most of the big institutions have mini-bus services to pick-up and drop-off staff, which is a good practice, and needs promotion from the corporate side. With regards, Sarath -- Sarath Guttikunda New Delhi, India Phone: +91 9891 315 946 @ http://www.urbanemissions.info @ http://www.dri.edu/People/Sarath.Guttikunda/ From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Sat Mar 27 15:39:54 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 07:39:54 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Bodhisattva in the metro Message-ID: <000001cacd78$53bd1270$fb373750$@britton@ecoplan.org> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_kbTo-M_pSuw/S6uxnscH7II/AAAAAAAACwE/ALKY0hzJPKk/s2 00/ws-metro.jpgBodhisattva in the metro The Sanskrit term Bodhisattva is the name given to anyone who, motivated by great compassion, has generated bodhichitta, which is a spontaneous wish to attain Buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings. What makes someone a Bodhisattva is her or his dedication to the ultimate welfare of other beings World Streets: It's not the destination, it's the voyage. --> The full text of this article appears in today's World Streets at http://WorldStreets.org/ --> No broadband? No problem. Find it on the Open Edition at www.open.WorldStreets.org -- > Discussions on World Streets Forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldStreets (Post to WorldStreets@yahoogroups.com ) Read World Streets Today at http://www.worldstreets.org/ & www.open.worldstreets.org New Mobility Partnerships - http://www.newmobility.org 8/10 rue Joseph Bara, 75006 Paris, France, Europe +331 4326 1323 eric.britton(at)newmobility.org Skype: newmobility -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 5745 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20100327/dbf0c3e8/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 2810 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20100327/dbf0c3e8/attachment-0001.jpe From lschipper at wri.org Sat Mar 27 12:13:19 2010 From: lschipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 23:13:19 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? In-Reply-To: <683ba1ca1003262006i17e3034bgdb511c26bcd2b9b@mail.gmail.com> References: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C079BF938@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local><47a72ec51003250413h4efa4141s959671d58ff9fe63@mail.gmail.com><001301cacc21$86a35a80$93ea0f80$@org> <683ba1ca1003262006i17e3034bgdb511c26bcd2b9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C07A5E398@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> I think the key issues are a bit different 1. What is the cost of getting a driver's license and insurance? Does car sharing include insurance? IS it worth investing in the license ONLY to use a car occasionally? 2. Or is car sharing just a kind of adaptation to car ownership, a first, somewhat less expensive step. The points made below about the cost of hiring a car/drive are well taken. Hidden in Cornie's point is a key reason that promotes car ownership -- free or almost free parking at work. But in a society where having a driver or taking a taxi is expensive, car ownership and a round trip to work may still be cheap compared to other means, particularly of the cost of ownership is now written off over 12 000 km/year. So I'm worried that car sharing is an inexpensive way towards becoming a car owner. Lee -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Sarath Guttikunda Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 8:06 PM To: Lloyd Wright Cc: Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? Dear Lloyd, yes, this does not apply for people who use driver for pick-up and drop-off. It does double the vehicle kilometers traveled. Speaking of Delhi and some friends around here, In general, there is a tendency to promote telecommuting when possible and most of the big institutions have mini-bus services to pick-up and drop-off staff, which is a good practice, and needs promotion from the corporate side. With regards, Sarath -- Sarath Guttikunda New Delhi, India Phone: +91 9891 315 946 @ http://www.urbanemissions.info @ http://www.dri.edu/People/Sarath.Guttikunda/ On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 7:16 PM, Lloyd Wright wrote: > Of course, if a driver takes you to work and then returns to the trip > origin to park, one has effectively doubled the kilometers for every > trip...and doubled the emissions. > > This by the way is the same problem when there is no scholar transport > and each parent individually takes their child to school. A single > trip purpose requires double the distance. > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+lwright=vivacities.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+lwright ght> > =vivacities.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of Cornie Huizenga > Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 19:13 > To: Madhav Pai > Cc: Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Is carsharing irrelevant for the Global South? > > Dear All, > > For the last 13 years I have lived in Asia without owning a car. > > Fir 10 years in Manila I did what Madhav described - take a car with > driver so that you don't have problems with parking. One reason for > taking car with driver was that taxis were unreliable. I am certain > that in this manner I avoided a lot of kilometers compared to having a car myself. > > Cornie > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 6:27 PM, Madhav Pai wrote: > > > A form of car sharing in India very prevalent. > > > > In most cities you can rent a car/with a driver (half day:4 hours), > > full > > day: 8-12 hours, few days even a few months). The cars are available > > in all sizes small sedans to mini vans. The rates are pretty much > > fixed across the country. It usually starts at 4 Hours, 40 Kms is > > 400 Rs (10 > > USD) for a low small sedan. > > > > Car ownership may vary between from one car (owner/driver) to a few > > thousand cars. > > There is also an increasing number of fleet managers. That take > > these cars from individual owners/drivers, use technology elements > > (GPS tracking), call center etc and make them available to offices/companies. > > > > > > Would you call this car sharing? > > > > It would be interesting to study if the availability of these cars > > - prevent people from buying cars > > - do they end up buying smaller cars for city use and renting these > > bigger cars for long trips > > - what percentage of car use in our cities are these shared cars? > > - if one these large companies could transform themselves into > > membership based car sharing entities. > > > > > > Sincerely; > > Madhav Pai > > Technical Director > > EMBARQ - India > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Tue Mar 30 01:09:18 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:09:18 +0200 Subject: [sustran] The Take It Down Department Message-ID: <031f01cacf5a$31fd4a90$95f7dfb0$@britton@ecoplan.org> Robert Moskowitz, who follows matters of transportation and public policy with interest from Los Angeles, and who periodically shares with World Streets information, clues and comments on matters of old and new mobility, poses the following for our consideration this morning: "I've noticed there's a whole infrastructure in our cities in charge of putting up stop signs, traffic lights, and the like, but no infrastructure in charge of taking them down when they've outlived their usefulness. If I were a traffic scientist, I would have studied and published on these topics. But I had no standing and no time to have more than opinions." Reflecting on Robert's suggestion, it seems obvious that there is no possibility that any city or nation, or person for that matter, can have even a chance of moving seriously toward sustainability, without specifically reversing a lot of past decisions, investments, and physical facts of everyday life. So if that is true -- it is, isn't it? - it is something that presidents, governors, mayors and anyone else in the political establishment should be aware of and ready to engage. Anywhere on this planet. Nest step: World Streets would very much like to do one or more articles on anything that resembles a Take It Down Department that you might be able to point us to. It would be a great contribution. The Editor -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 28045 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20100329/96d0ba54/attachment.png From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Wed Mar 31 18:25:19 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:25:19 +0200 Subject: [sustran] The path to clean air (in the transport sector at least) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010d01cad0b4$17a1c990$46e55cb0$@britton@ecoplan.org> Dear friends and colleagues, To my mind (see below) we are in the transport sector giving far too much attention to clean autos, green autos, electric autos, hydrogen autos, clean energy, new fuels, and in almost all cases in rhyme with the auto and energy industries. Is that what "sustainable mobility" (and clean air) is all about? I seriously doubt it and would like to launch a high profile public conversation on this topic. Here is what we know for sure - and it's bullet proof! The most effective way to clean air in the transport sector (and many other important things that together make up the transition to truly sustainable transport (or at least getting on the path to get there) is summarized in the right half of this little meta-equation which you will find introduced in a lecture by Fred Salvucci, former Secretary of Transportation for the state of Massachusetts and currently of the MIT Center for Transportation and Logistics, which is available for you this morning at http://newmobilityagenda.blogspot.com/2010/03/world-streets-worldwide-visiti ng.html : (Vehicle hours traveled, Vehicle miles travelled. # vehicles) By this I am trying to plead for far more attention to "fixing the system" as opposed to "fixing the auto". What is ironic (but understandable if you take the time to dig deep enough) is that it is the left side of the equation that is getting almost all the money and the attention. This is a major strategic challenge and decision. It is important to show what side we are on here. It is not that the 'fix the auto' business is to be ignored. But to be put in its place. With the bulk of the attention and the $$$ invested to the right., I shall try to provide my best statement of this in World Streets before the end of the week. I look forward very much to statements and arguments to the contrary. I want to do my bit if not to reverse this significant strategic error, at least to encourage more attention to it. With all good wishes, Eric Britton Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records. World Streets . www.worldstreets.org Open Edition: www.open.worldstreets.org 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara . Paris 75006 France +331 7550 3788 . eric.britton@newmobility.org . Skype newmobility New Mobility Partnerships . www.partners.newmobility.org 9440 Readcrest Drive . Los Angeles, CA 90210 +1 213 984 1277 . fekbritton@gmail.org . Skype ericbritton -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 18558 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20100331/bcfe86bb/attachment.png From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Wed Mar 31 23:32:10 2010 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:32:10 +0200 Subject: [sustran] The Take It Down Department.
(A suggestion from one of ... Message-ID: <024301cad0de$f53b1ed0$dfb15c70$@britton@ecoplan.org> The Take It Down Department. (A suggestion from one of our alert readers.) Robert Moskowitz, who follows matters of transportation and public policy with interest from Los Angeles, and who periodically shares with World Streets information, clues and comments on matters of old and new mobility, poses the following for our consideration this morning: "I've noticed there's a whole infrastructure in our cities in charge of putting up stop signs, traffic lights, and the like, but no infrastructure in charge of taking them down when they've outlived their usefulness. If I were a traffic scientist, I would have studied and published on these topics. But I had no standing and no time to have more than opinions." __,_._,___--> The full text of this article appears in today's World Streets at http://WorldStreets.org/ --> No broadband? No problem. Find it on the Open Edition at www.open.WorldStreets.org -- > Discussions on World Streets Forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldStreets (Post to WorldStreets@yahoogroups.com ) Read World Streets Today at http://www.worldstreets.org/ & www.open.worldstreets.org New Mobility Partnerships - http://www.newmobility.org 8/10 rue Joseph Bara, 75006 Paris, France, Europe +331 4326 1323 eric.britton(at)newmobility.org Skype: newmobility