From carlosfpardo at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 00:14:31 2008 From: carlosfpardo at gmail.com (Carlosfelipe Pardo) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:14:31 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Slow transport? Message-ID: <47790757.7000906@gmail.com> Hi, Does anyone know of any research or theory of urban planning or transport planning that takes *speed* as a factor to be taken into account? I have been searching for this and haven't found anything. I thought about this because I've seen that transport planning normally takes land use, modes, infrastructure and other factors into account, but it doesn't seem to take speed as a component in its own right. The only explicit reference I could find was Le Corbusier, who emphasizes the role of high speeds in a city, and plans around those high speeds (elevated highways, etc). Should we think about slowness as a *positive* characteristic of transport? Should we propose slow transport as one solution to the problem? I think slowness should be promoted not just for reasons of road safety but for issues of sustainability in shorter distances traveled (slower speeds means longer travel times, so people would try to reduce their travel distances) and thus lower energy expenditures and emissions. Of course, this would need us to think about strategies to reduce speeds, which would include what we're normally promoting (bicycles, pedestrian areas, 30km/h speed limits, etc). Comments on this are most welcome. Ah, and happy new year! Best regards, -- Carlosfelipe Pardo From litman at vtpi.org Tue Jan 1 02:16:13 2008 From: litman at vtpi.org (Todd Alexander Litman) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 09:16:13 -0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: Slow transport? In-Reply-To: <47790757.7000906@gmail.com> References: <47790757.7000906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071231082022.078cf860@mail.islandnet.com> Your question raises several related issues: First is the distinction between "mobility" and "accessibility" (http://www.vtpi.org/access.pdf ). Most current transport planning uses indicators that reflect mobility, and so inherently favor higher speed modes over lower speed modes, and mobility over accessibility. For example, transportation engineers often use estimates of vehicle traffic delays and roadway level-of-service (LOS) ratings to identify where transportation improvements are needed, which justifies widening roadways, even if this reduces access by walking and cycling, and stimulates sprawled land use patterns, which increases the distance that people must travel to reach destinations. Many planning professionals now realize that improving land use accessibility (for example, by creating more compact, walkable communities) is a legitimate way to improve transportation. In addition, many planners now recognize the effects of "induced travel" and a "constant travel time budget" (http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf ) which imply that efforts to increase travel speeds do not really reduce congestion or save travel time over the long run, they stimulate more mobility and sprawl. This may provide direct benefits to users (the people who travel more and live in more distant communities) but imposes numerous external costs on soceity, including increased traffic congestion, accident risk, land use impacts, energy consumption and sprawl (http://www.vtpi.org/landuse.pdf ). Since travel time costs are a major factor in transportation project evaluation, it is important that it be correctly valued (http://www.vtpi.org/tca/tca0502.pdf ). Unfortunately, most current travel models are biased in ways that undervalue walking, cycling and public transit service quality improvements, and overvalue highway capacity expansion, because they ignore the higher cost that should be assigned to unpleasant conditions (walking on busy roads that lack sidewalks, crossing busy highways, waiting for a bus alongside a busy roadway, traveling by crowded bus or train), which should give priority to improvements to these modes (http://www.vtpi.org/quality.pdf ). Described differently, more objective transportation investment models would be willing to spend as much to reduce per-minute travel time costs (for example, by reducing bus crowding or improving pedestrian conditions) as is spent to reduce the minutes spent in travel (for example, by widening roadways). In addition, current planning practices tend to undercount total walking and cycling activity, and ignore or undervalue many of the benefits of shifts from motorized to nonmotorized modes (http://www.vtpi.org/walkability.pdf ). Fortunately, many people within the transportation planning profession are realizing these points. For example, many recent issues of the Institute of Transportation Engineers Journal (http://www.ite.org/itejournal/index.asp ) have been filled with articles concerning pedestrian and transit improvement techniques. Best wishes, -Todd Litman and the implications of a fixed travel time budget. At 07:14 AM 12/31/2007, Carlosfelipe Pardo wrote: >Hi, > >Does anyone know of any research or theory of urban planning or >transport planning that takes *speed* as a factor to be taken into >account? I have been searching for this and haven't found anything. >I thought about this because I've seen that transport planning normally >takes land use, modes, infrastructure and other factors into account, >but it doesn't seem to take speed as a component in its own right. > >The only explicit reference I could find was Le Corbusier, who >emphasizes the role of high speeds in a city, and plans around those >high speeds (elevated highways, etc). Should we think about slowness as >a *positive* characteristic of transport? Should we propose slow >transport as one solution to the problem? > >I think slowness should be promoted not just for reasons of road safety >but for issues of sustainability in shorter distances traveled (slower >speeds means longer travel times, so people would try to reduce their >travel distances) and thus lower energy expenditures and emissions. Of >course, this would need us to think about strategies to reduce speeds, >which would include what we're normally promoting (bicycles, pedestrian >areas, 30km/h speed limits, etc). > >Comments on this are most welcome. > >Ah, and happy new year! > >Best regards, > >-- >Carlosfelipe Pardo > >-------------------------------------------------------- >IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > >Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss >to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The >yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post >to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it >seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > >================================================================ >SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >countries (the 'Global South'). Sincerely, Todd Alexander Litman Victoria Transport Policy Institute (www.vtpi.org) litman@vtpi.org Phone & Fax 250-360-1560 1250 Rudlin Street, Victoria, BC, V8V 3R7, CANADA "Efficiency - Equity - Clarity" From s.j.baddeley at bham.ac.uk Tue Jan 1 03:51:59 2008 From: s.j.baddeley at bham.ac.uk (Simon Baddeley) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:51:59 +0000 Subject: [sustran] Re: [carfree_cities] Slow transport? (edited slightly - sorry) In-Reply-To: <47790757.7000906@gmail.com> Message-ID: Try looking at Newman and Kenworthy (if you haven't already). http://davidpritchard.org/sustrans/NewKen99/ These authors use a model of the pedestrian, the rapid transit and the autodependent city - in which time is fixed. People seem willing to spend a given amount of time commuting so you can imagine 30 minutes mainly on foot producing what are now the small compact often 'heritage' old towns of most autodependent cities. The rapid-transit city where people will do a 30 minute train, tram or bus journey into the centre. This produces a spider pattern of lineal routes in and out with small settlements around rail stations and other rapid transit stops. With cars the door-to-door capability of the car means that in the same 30 minutes people will live anywhere that is 30 minutes from their work and removes the need for 'centres' and 'places' containing premises for trading, for worship, attending school, participating in government. 30 minutes remains the same but the settlement patterns differ according to dominant means of transport. What Adams also says is that drivers use up their extra safety on speed, and use their 'enhanced' speed on distance - so that the 30 minute periphery of the auto-city gets larger, especially if more roads are built. So time and people's willingness to spend a given amount of it on travel is a very significant parameter. As an urban cyclist for the last 15 years I have valued cycling less for its speed but for the amount of predictability that cycling introduces into the planning of travel. It is often faster to get from A to B in a city by cycle, but for me the greatest value is the way I can plan my day when cycling between different meetings - sometimes combining this with tram, bus or train travel, a combination made far better as more information about rapid transit schedules becomes available. Best wishes S Simon Baddeley Inlogov, School of Public Policy University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham B15 2TT 0121 554 9794 VoIP 0121 343 3614 mobile 07775 655842 Campus: Sue Platt 0121 414 5002 s.p.platt@bham.ac.uk http://www.inlogov.bham.ac.uk/staff/Baddeley.shtml > From: Carlosfelipe Pardo > Reply-To: > Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:14:31 -0500 > To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport , > Newmobility Cafe , > > Subject: [carfree_cities] Slow transport? > > Hi, > > Does anyone know of any research or theory of urban planning or > transport planning that takes *speed* as a factor to be taken into > account? I have been searching for this and haven't found anything. > I thought about this because I've seen that transport planning normally > takes land use, modes, infrastructure and other factors into account, > but it doesn't seem to take speed as a component in its own right. > > The only explicit reference I could find was Le Corbusier, who > emphasizes the role of high speeds in a city, and plans around those > high speeds (elevated highways, etc). Should we think about slowness as > a *positive* characteristic of transport? Should we propose slow > transport as one solution to the problem? > > I think slowness should be promoted not just for reasons of road safety > but for issues of sustainability in shorter distances traveled (slower > speeds means longer travel times, so people would try to reduce their > travel distances) and thus lower energy expenditures and emissions. Of > course, this would need us to think about strategies to reduce speeds, > which would include what we're normally promoting (bicycles, pedestrian > areas, 30km/h speed limits, etc). > > Comments on this are most welcome. > > Ah, and happy new year! > > Best regards, > > -- > Carlosfelipe Pardo > From schipper at wri.org Tue Jan 1 09:37:20 2008 From: schipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 19:37:20 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: [sustain] Re: [carfree_cities] Slow transport? (edited slightly -sorry) References: Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342CFFEAC2@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> And I cycled to work for six years in DC and 6 years in Paris just to see what the city looked like on the surface. But I also paid through the nose to live in homes close to cycling opportunities/Metro (in a pinch) etc. Those that choose larger homes over proximity to the most densely built up areas must need more room from their 100 cm (40 inch) plasma LED Dvs and their large motorized lawn mowers! The question for megacities I think one has to be concerned about is where do millions of people live, under what kinds of real estate prices, with how much area to live in, as they get wealthier. There are huge apartment buildings going up in Shanghai in Puxi, the densest oldest part. Sadly, these are displacing the older traditional walkup houses, making room for more commercial space, probably leaving the day + night time population density higher. The result is much more built space/capita. The nice thing about these skyscrapers is that an elevator takes inhabitants part of the way to the metro or bus line. The bummer is that they are totally overwhelming. Even after 18 trips to Shanghai in nearly 10 years I feel dwarfed, and more so than in NY City. (And if you like Shanghai, just watch Dubai!) If the Chinese continue with a mostly walking/two wheeler (motorized and non motorized) urban structure, how many jobs and other opportunities are available within the 30 minute radius of each person's home. The answer is plenty if a large share of people and jobs live in these towers, thanks to Mr. Otis and his elevators. If they beyond metro and to some extent bus based, how long can they hold the line (and their pocketbooks) before jumping to cars at the fringes in order to (perhaps falsely) "enjoy" more space. What is a key element in all of this is land -- values, prices, regulation, housing prices and above all housing space available in a city of 1 to 10 million or more. My guess is that per capita space in Shanghai is 10-15 sq m/capita of home, up from 5 sq m in say 1985. That's quite an achievement, but it only came by pushing out hundreds of thousands of traditional dwellings in low rise buildings in order to make room for the skyscrapers. But in the US that number is closer to sixty square meters, reinforced by housing tax policies. What will keep Chinese bundled up in small homes, for how long? In New York the number for per capita area is smaller, to be sure, but in Manhattan expensive. That seems to be the reality - proximity in dense cities is cramped and expensive. There is also the issue of proximity to good transit and land prices. Land and housing near Transmilenio in Bogota is more expensive than elsewhere. (I commend you to Benoit Lefevre's new Phd (in French) that dealt with this issue extensively). In places like Bogota (soon), NYCity, Shanghai (soon), Hong Kong, Stockholm certainly Barcelona (80% of population within 500 m of a metro or fast bus line) it's hard to argue that there is a big bias towards places near fast transport, since most of the city is relatively close. In places like San Francisco region, Los Angeles, certainly Atlanta, relatively few live by rapid transit, transit that came at an enormous price, too. But housing space is higher. So there is a key element here-- living space and its cost has to be fit into speed/travel time, urban structure, etc. Discussion about what kinds of urban forms, densities, etc that focus solely on transport and speed and ignore how much space (of what quality) there is inside buildings for living, shopping, having fun, etc may be missing the forest through the trees, or rather the buildings for the streets. Wish I had the answers! Happy New Year to everyone. Lee Schipper Director of Research, EMBARQ the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and Visiting Scholar, Univ of Calif Transport Center Berkeley CA www.uctc.net skype: mrmeter 510 642 6889 202 262 7476 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Simon Baddeley Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 10:52 AM To: Carfree Cities Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: [carfree_cities] Slow transport? (edited slightly -sorry) Try looking at Newman and Kenworthy (if you haven't already). http://davidpritchard.org/sustrans/NewKen99/ These authors use a model of the pedestrian, the rapid transit and the autodependent city - in which time is fixed. People seem willing to spend a given amount of time commuting so you can imagine 30 minutes mainly on foot producing what are now the small compact often 'heritage' old towns of most autodependent cities. The rapid-transit city where people will do a 30 minute train, tram or bus journey into the centre. This produces a spider pattern of lineal routes in and out with small settlements around rail stations and other rapid transit stops. With cars the door-to-door capability of the car means that in the same 30 minutes people will live anywhere that is 30 minutes from their work and removes the need for 'centres' and 'places' containing premises for trading, for worship, attending school, participating in government. 30 minutes remains the same but the settlement patterns differ according to dominant means of transport. What Adams also says is that drivers use up their extra safety on speed, and use their 'enhanced' speed on distance - so that the 30 minute periphery of the auto-city gets larger, especially if more roads are built. So time and people's willingness to spend a given amount of it on travel is a very significant parameter. As an urban cyclist for the last 15 years I have valued cycling less for its speed but for the amount of predictability that cycling introduces into the planning of travel. It is often faster to get from A to B in a city by cycle, but for me the greatest value is the way I can plan my day when cycling between different meetings - sometimes combining this with tram, bus or train travel, a combination made far better as more information about rapid transit schedules becomes available. Best wishes S Simon Baddeley Inlogov, School of Public Policy University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham B15 2TT 0121 554 9794 VoIP 0121 343 3614 mobile 07775 655842 Campus: Sue Platt 0121 414 5002 s.p.platt@bham.ac.uk http://www.inlogov.bham.ac.uk/staff/Baddeley.shtml > From: Carlosfelipe Pardo > Reply-To: > Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:14:31 -0500 > To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport , > Newmobility Cafe , > > Subject: [carfree_cities] Slow transport? > > Hi, > > Does anyone know of any research or theory of urban planning or > transport planning that takes *speed* as a factor to be taken into > account? I have been searching for this and haven't found anything. > I thought about this because I've seen that transport planning normally > takes land use, modes, infrastructure and other factors into account, > but it doesn't seem to take speed as a component in its own right. > > The only explicit reference I could find was Le Corbusier, who > emphasizes the role of high speeds in a city, and plans around those > high speeds (elevated highways, etc). Should we think about slowness as > a *positive* characteristic of transport? Should we propose slow > transport as one solution to the problem? > > I think slowness should be promoted not just for reasons of road safety > but for issues of sustainability in shorter distances traveled (slower > speeds means longer travel times, so people would try to reduce their > travel distances) and thus lower energy expenditures and emissions. Of > course, this would need us to think about strategies to reduce speeds, > which would include what we're normally promoting (bicycles, pedestrian > areas, 30km/h speed limits, etc). > > Comments on this are most welcome. > > Ah, and happy new year! > > Best regards, > > -- > Carlosfelipe Pardo > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Wed Jan 2 02:06:56 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 18:06:56 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Slowth Message-ID: <005e01c84c98$bb0f2110$312d6330$@britton@ecoplan.org> Thanks, Carlos, Todd, Lee, Sujit, Simon. Much in this spirit I have for some years been a firm supporter of the concept of "slowth" - that which occurs in situations when your top speed is limited but somehow you get there first. Myriad examples abound, and in addition to Aesop's good write-up of this highly technical point a few years back, we have the example of thousands of cities - Paris being one -- in which you or I just about invariably get there first if we take our bike and not our Ferrari. (I am not sure as to when or where I first ran into this word, but I have been using it rather often in my own work for more than a decade now. A traffic system based on slowth is going to be carefully calibrated to lower top speeds - way 20 or 30 kph works well for me - but where the entire system leads to far steadier flows and throughput, and, with it, greater safety, lower emissions, and higher quality of life all around. If I were a young traffic engineer, I would certainly want to make this a pillar of my life work - which of course is exactly what wonderful people like Hans Monderman, Jan Gehl and a growing cohort of young practitioners are now doing. It's a splendid thing to do. Eric Britton PS. Just looked slowth up in the Urban Dictionary which provides the following, to me, rather unpromising definition: "Slowness. Generally sloth-like behavior, especially of computers or co-workers." (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slowth) PS2. That done I next looked up slowth just now in the Wikipedia and found no entry. But now if you go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slowth you will see the following entry, which I hope that one or more of you may wish to jump in and complete. It's a very important concept and really does need a far higher profile. Words count. Slowth is a New Mobility transport planning concept, describing a physical situation, usually in a city, in which lower top speeds can lead to shorter overall travel times. (The traditional "model" for this is of course Aesop's tale of the race between the tortoise and the hare, in which the slow turtle arrives well before the fast rabbit.) This is a powerful model which transport and city planners are only recently starting to take seriously. A traffic system based on slowth is carefully calibrated to lower top speeds - 20 or 30 kph on most city streets is one common target - but where the entire system leads to far steadier flows and throughput, and, with it, greater safety, lower emissions, and higher quality of life all around. ************ now help make this better. ******* From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Wed Jan 2 02:19:17 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 18:19:17 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Slowth Message-ID: <006301c84c9a$72f284b0$58d78e10$@britton@ecoplan.org> From: Peter Newman [mailto:P.Newman@murdoch.edu.au] Sent: Tuesday, 1 January 2008 17:48 To: eric.britton@ecoplan.org Subject: RE: Slowth Great concept. It is at the heart of traffic calming of course and now 'Naked Streets' as well as the Slow Cities idea from Italy. It is interesting that 20 to 30 kph is the speed that we are bilogically made for as our maximum. It is the speed that sprinters reach and of course over thousands of years our hand eye co-ordination has adapted to that speed so we see so much more at or below that speed. Birds can see at much faster speeds and have adapted their skills and observation accordingly. We can't do much at high speed other than stay straight so we have awful accidents all the time due to 'human error' and somehow get surprised by it. Peter Newman _____ From: eric.britton [mailto:eric.britton@ecoplan.org] Sent: Tue 1/01/2008 23:21 To: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Cc: Lee Schipper; 'Carlosfelipe Pardo'; 'Sujit Patwardhan'; Todd Litman (Todd Litman); s.p.platt@bham.ac.uk; Hans Monderman; Jan Gehl; Aaron Naparstek; Peter Newman; Jeff Kenworthy Subject: Slowth Thanks, Carlos, Todd, Lee, Sujit, Simon. Much in this spirit I have for some years been a firm supporter of the concept of "slowth" - that which occurs in situations when your top speed is limited but somehow you get there first. Myriad examples abound, and in addition to Aesop's good write-up of this highly technical point a few years back, we have the example of thousands of cities - Paris being one -- in which you or I just about invariably get there first if we take our bike and not our Ferrari. (I am not sure as to when or where I first ran into this word, but I have been using it rather often in my own work for more than a decade now. A traffic system based on slowth is going to be carefully calibrated to lower top speeds - way 20 or 30 kph works well for me - but where the entire system leads to far steadier flows and throughput, and, with it, greater safety, lower emissions, and higher quality of life all around. If I were a young traffic engineer, I would certainly want to make this a pillar of my life work - which of course is exactly what wonderful people like Hans Monderman, Jan Gehl and a growing cohort of young practitioners are now doing. It's a splendid thing to do. Eric Britton PS. Just looked slowth up in the Urban Dictionary which provides the following, to me, rather unpromising definition: "Slowness. Generally sloth-like behavior, especially of computers or co-workers." (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slowth) PS2. That done I next looked up slowth just now in the Wikipedia and found no entry. But now if you go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slowth you will see the following entry, which I hope that one or more of you may wish to jump in and complete. It's a very important concept and really does need a far higher profile. Words count. Slowth is a New Mobility transport planning concept, describing a physical situation, usually in a city, in which lower top speeds can lead to shorter overall travel times. (The traditional "model" for this is of course Aesop's tale of the race between the tortoise and the hare, in which the slow turtle arrives well before the fast rabbit.) This is a powerful model which transport and city planners are only recently starting to take seriously. A traffic system based on slowth is carefully calibrated to lower top speeds - 20 or 30 kph on most city streets is one common target - but where the entire system leads to far steadier flows and throughput, and, with it, greater safety, lower emissions, and higher quality of life all around. ************ now help make this better. ******* From litman at vtpi.org Wed Jan 2 03:23:29 2008 From: litman at vtpi.org (Todd Alexander Litman) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 10:23:29 -0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: Slow transport? (edited slightly -sorry) In-Reply-To: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342CFFEAC2@wricsex029330.WRI.C RM.Local> References: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342CFFEAC2@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080101101040.078d02c0@mail.islandnet.com> Lee, I think you raise an important point: that our ultimate goal is to maximize human happiness (or more technically "social welfare") which requires consideration of factors such as the urban quality of life and cultural preservation. Understanding how to make dense megacities livable will be a major challenge. It may be that there is a city size and density that is overall optimal, beyond which incremental economic and social costs exceed the benefits. I suspect that many countries would benefit by encouraging more development in secondary cities, to avoid excessive city size. However, megacities exist so we shouldn't dismiss them. I've been impressed with the quality of development in some large cities, such as Seoul, where thoughtful planning is responsive to residents quality of life, for example, by creating urban villages (residential neighborhoods with public services and opportunities for social interactions) and preserving public greenspace. Best New Years Wishes, -Todd Litman At 04:37 PM 12/31/2007, Lee Schipper wrote: >And I cycled to work for six years in DC and 6 years in Paris just to >see what the city looked like on the surface. But I also paid through >the nose to live in homes close to cycling opportunities/Metro (in a >pinch) etc. Those that choose larger homes over proximity to the most >densely built up areas must need more room from their 100 cm (40 inch) >plasma LED Dvs and their large motorized lawn mowers! > >The question for megacities I think one has to be concerned about is >where do millions of people live, under what kinds of real estate >prices, with how much area to live in, as they get wealthier. There are >huge apartment buildings going up in Shanghai in Puxi, the densest >oldest part. Sadly, these are displacing the older traditional walkup >houses, making room for more commercial space, probably leaving the day >+ night time population density higher. The result is much more built >space/capita. The nice thing about these skyscrapers is that an elevator >takes inhabitants part of the way to the metro or bus line. The bummer >is that they are totally overwhelming. Even after 18 trips to Shanghai >in nearly 10 years I feel dwarfed, and more so than in NY City. (And if >you like Shanghai, just watch Dubai!) > >If the Chinese continue with a mostly walking/two wheeler (motorized and >non motorized) urban structure, how many jobs and other opportunities >are available within the 30 minute radius of each person's home. The >answer is plenty if a large share of people and jobs live in these >towers, thanks to Mr. Otis and his elevators. If they beyond metro and >to some extent bus based, how long can they hold the line (and their >pocketbooks) before jumping to cars at the fringes in order to (perhaps >falsely) "enjoy" more space. > >What is a key element in all of this is land -- values, prices, >regulation, housing prices and above all housing space available in a >city of 1 to 10 million or more. My guess is that per capita space in >Shanghai is 10-15 sq m/capita of home, up from 5 sq m in say 1985. >That's quite an achievement, but it only came by pushing out hundreds of >thousands of traditional dwellings in low rise buildings in order to >make room for the skyscrapers. > >But in the US that number is closer to sixty square meters, reinforced >by housing tax policies. What will keep Chinese bundled up in small >homes, for how long? In New York the number for per capita area is >smaller, to be sure, but in Manhattan expensive. That seems to be the >reality - proximity in dense cities is cramped and expensive. > >There is also the issue of proximity to good transit and land prices. >Land and housing near Transmilenio in Bogota is more expensive than >elsewhere. (I commend you to Benoit Lefevre's new Phd (in French) that >dealt with this issue extensively). In places like Bogota (soon), >NYCity, Shanghai (soon), Hong Kong, Stockholm certainly Barcelona (80% >of population within 500 m of a metro or fast bus line) it's hard to >argue that there is a big bias towards places near fast transport, since >most of the city is relatively close. In places like San Francisco >region, Los Angeles, certainly Atlanta, relatively few live by rapid >transit, transit that came at an enormous price, too. But housing space >is higher. > >So there is a key element here-- living space and its cost has to be fit >into speed/travel time, urban structure, etc. Discussion about what >kinds of urban forms, densities, etc that focus solely on transport and >speed and ignore how much space (of what quality) there is inside >buildings for living, shopping, having fun, etc may be missing the >forest through the trees, or rather the buildings for the streets. Sincerely, Todd Alexander Litman Victoria Transport Policy Institute (www.vtpi.org) litman@vtpi.org Phone & Fax 250-360-1560 1250 Rudlin Street, Victoria, BC, V8V 3R7, CANADA "Efficiency - Equity - Clarity" From schipper at wri.org Wed Jan 2 03:57:17 2008 From: schipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 13:57:17 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Slow transport? (edited slightly -sorry) References: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342CFFEAC2@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> <6.2.3.4.2.20080101101040.078d02c0@mail.islandnet.com> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342CC73800@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Thanks Todd. I think the catcher is "quality of life". I remember going to Disneyland on invitation opening day in 1955 and seeing the Monsanto/GE House of the future, the Richfield (later Arco, later BP) "autopia" and other "visions" of quality of life Disney was subtly putting forward. We fell for it. I won't write down here how much income I deducted legally last year for mortgage interest, but it was a huge amount and to me one of the driving factors in defining lots of space and cars as "quality of life". With or without such tax benefits, I think most of well to do and middle classes in Asia are falling for it, as Latin America tried to and l learned last month (and so did Eric), "it" is now in full swing in Dubai. And in Bali during and after the Climate meeting I experienced mostly endless strip development, whether in shacks, concrete store fronts, or real malls. I remember Seoul in 1980, barely a sixth of its present population, and then 13 years later, a nightmare. They fell for it too, so when parts of the city reform, its heartening when most of the world is running towards a greater mess. Lee Schipper EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org >From Oct 1, Visiting Scholar, UC Transportation Center UC Berkeley, CA www.uctc.net 510 642 6889 202 262 7476 ________________________________ From: Todd Alexander Litman [mailto:litman@vtpi.org] Sent: Tue 1/1/2008 10:23 AM To: Lee Schipper; Simon Baddeley; Carfree Cities; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: Re: Slow transport? (edited slightly -sorry) Lee, I think you raise an important point: that our ultimate goal is to maximize human happiness (or more technically "social welfare") which requires consideration of factors such as the urban quality of life and cultural preservation. Understanding how to make dense megacities livable will be a major challenge. It may be that there is a city size and density that is overall optimal, beyond which incremental economic and social costs exceed the benefits. I suspect that many countries would benefit by encouraging more development in secondary cities, to avoid excessive city size. However, megacities exist so we shouldn't dismiss them. I've been impressed with the quality of development in some large cities, such as Seoul, where thoughtful planning is responsive to residents quality of life, for example, by creating urban villages (residential neighborhoods with public services and opportunities for social interactions) and preserving public greenspace. Best New Years Wishes, -Todd Litman At 04:37 PM 12/31/2007, Lee Schipper wrote: And I cycled to work for six years in DC and 6 years in Paris just to see what the city looked like on the surface. But I also paid through the nose to live in homes close to cycling opportunities/Metro (in a pinch) etc. Those that choose larger homes over proximity to the most densely built up areas must need more room from their 100 cm (40 inch) plasma LED Dvs and their large motorized lawn mowers! The question for megacities I think one has to be concerned about is where do millions of people live, under what kinds of real estate prices, with how much area to live in, as they get wealthier. There are huge apartment buildings going up in Shanghai in Puxi, the densest oldest part. Sadly, these are displacing the older traditional walkup houses, making room for more commercial space, probably leaving the day + night time population density higher. The result is much more built space/capita. The nice thing about these skyscrapers is that an elevator takes inhabitants part of the way to the metro or bus line. The bummer is that they are totally overwhelming. Even after 18 trips to Shanghai in nearly 10 years I feel dwarfed, and more so than in NY City. (And if you like Shanghai, just watch Dubai!) If the Chinese continue with a mostly walking/two wheeler (motorized and non motorized) urban structure, how many jobs and other opportunities are available within the 30 minute radius of each person's home. The answer is plenty if a large share of people and jobs live in these towers, thanks to Mr. Otis and his elevators. If they beyond metro and to some extent bus based, how long can they hold the line (and their pocketbooks) before jumping to cars at the fringes in order to (perhaps falsely) "enjoy" more space. What is a key element in all of this is land -- values, prices, regulation, housing prices and above all housing space available in a city of 1 to 10 million or more. My guess is that per capita space in Shanghai is 10-15 sq m/capita of home, up from 5 sq m in say 1985. That's quite an achievement, but it only came by pushing out hundreds of thousands of traditional dwellings in low rise buildings in order to make room for the skyscrapers. But in the US that number is closer to sixty square meters, reinforced by housing tax policies. What will keep Chinese bundled up in small homes, for how long? In New York the number for per capita area is smaller, to be sure, but in Manhattan expensive. That seems to be the reality - proximity in dense cities is cramped and expensive. There is also the issue of proximity to good transit and land prices. Land and housing near Transmilenio in Bogota is more expensive than elsewhere. (I commend you to Benoit Lefevre's new Phd (in French) that dealt with this issue extensively). In places like Bogota (soon), NYCity, Shanghai (soon), Hong Kong, Stockholm certainly Barcelona (80% of population within 500 m of a metro or fast bus line) it's hard to argue that there is a big bias towards places near fast transport, since most of the city is relatively close. In places like San Francisco region, Los Angeles, certainly Atlanta, relatively few live by rapid transit, transit that came at an enormous price, too. But housing space is higher. So there is a key element here-- living space and its cost has to be fit into speed/travel time, urban structure, etc. Discussion about what kinds of urban forms, densities, etc that focus solely on transport and speed and ignore how much space (of what quality) there is inside buildings for living, shopping, having fun, etc may be missing the forest through the trees, or rather the buildings for the streets. Sincerely, Todd Alexander Litman Victoria Transport Policy Institute (www.vtpi.org ) litman@vtpi.org Phone & Fax 250-360-1560 1250 Rudlin Street, Victoria, BC, V8V 3R7, CANADA "Efficiency - Equity - Clarity" From schipper at wri.org Wed Jan 2 07:45:35 2008 From: schipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:45:35 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Slowth (was "Slow transport?") References: <002501c84c81$8ed03100$ac709300$@britton@ecoplan.org> <477AC12B.9040608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342CFFEB00@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> There is a much more deadly disease you get from cycling -helmet hair! Lee Schipper Director of Research, EMBARQ the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and Visiting Scholar, Univ of Calif Transport Center Berkeley CA www.uctc.net skype: mrmeter 510 642 6889 202 262 7476 From: Carlosfelipe Pardo [mailto:carlosfpardo@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 2:40 PM To: eric.britton@ecoplan.org Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Lee Schipper; 'Sujit Patwardhan'; Todd Litman (Todd Litman); s.p.platt@bham.ac.uk; Hans Monderman; Jan Gehl; Aaron Naparstek; Peter Newman; Jeff Kenworthy Subject: Re: Slowth (was "Slow transport?") Yes! This was more or less what I was aiming at when I asked my initial question about "slow transport" or "slowth" or whatever name comes out of this. Other than the "tortoise and hare" concept, there are other arguments such as the whole idea behind slow food, slow cities and slow living in general (there have been various documents on this recently, such as the book by Wendy Parkins or the work of Paul Virilio). It's also interesting to see what Peter Newman mentioned about human capacities of 20-30 km/h. If you look at the history of the bicycle, everyone was afraid to ride it because of the risk of getting "bicycle face" (your face would suffer a deformation due to the "high speeds" of the vehicle). Also, people did not like the train ride because they didn't feel they could perceive the journey and its surroundings, due to its very high speeds (initially, around 30 km/h!). And to make it all more complex, we have followed a process of "speed desensitization" (not sure if this term is right, it's the shortest way to describe the concept): in the 19th century, trains h were "excessively fast" as were also bicycles, Today, speed limits of 30 km/h are difficult (or impossible) to enforce and bicycles and choo-choo trainers are the slowest vehicles one can think of. Thus, we don't perceive the impressive acceleration of our daily lives, but we want to go faster. To reiterate the idea from the beginning: In transport and land use, greater speeds generate greater distances traveled, which in turn can generate the idea (or action) of living farther from work, study and everything else. This normally has greater sprawl as a consequence, and thus greater energy use and increased emissions. Most of this is common to many, but the issue of speed as a factor in this is normally neglected. I really think there should be more work on this issue of speed, and I've seen that speed (or slowness) has not been treated as a goal, but as a means for something else. If we improve the situation, we could see as a result: lower speeds = reduced distances traveled = living closer to work, study, etc =more appropriate densities = reduced energy use = reduced emissions... increased quality of life. Thanks for your feedback, especially around new year! Best regards, Carlosfelipe Pardo eric.britton wrote: Thanks, Carlos, Todd, Lee, Sujit, Simon. Much in this spirit I have for some years been a firm supporter of the concept of "slowth" - that which occurs in situations when your top speed is limited but somehow you get there first. Myriad examples abound, and in addition to Aesop's good write-up of this highly technical point a few years back, we have the example of thousands of cities - Paris being one -- in which you or I just about invariably get there first if we take our bike and not our Ferrari. (I am not sure as to when or where I first ran into this word, but I have been using it rather often in my own work for more than a decade now. A traffic system based on slowth is going to be carefully calibrated to lower top speeds - way 20 or 30 kph works well for me - but where the entire system leads to far steadier flows and throughput, and, with it, greater safety, lower emissions, and higher quality of life all around. If I were a young traffic engineer, I would certainly want to make this a pillar of my life work - which of course is exactly what wonderful people like Hans Monderman, Jan Gehl and a growing cohort of young practitioners are now doing. It's a splendid thing to do. Eric Britton PS. Just looked slowth up in the Urban Dictionary which provides the following, to me, rather unpromising definition: "Slowness. Generally sloth-like behavior, especially of computers or co-workers." (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slowth) PS2. That done I next looked up slowth just now in the Wikipedia and found no entry. But now if you go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slowth you will see the following entry, which I hope that one or more of you may wish to jump in and complete. It's a very important concept and really does need a far higher profile. Words count. Slowth is a New Mobility transport planning concept, describing a physical situation, usually in a city, in which lower top speeds can lead to shorter overall travel times. (The traditional "model" for this is of course Aesop's tale of the race between the tortoise and the hare, in which the slow turtle arrives well before the fast rabbit.) This is a powerful model which transport and city planners are only recently starting to take seriously. A traffic system based on slowth is carefully calibrated to lower top speeds - 20 or 30 kph on most city streets is one common target - but where the entire system leads to far steadier flows and throughput, and, with it, greater safety, lower emissions, and higher quality of life all around. ************ now help make this better. ******* From carlosfpardo at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 07:49:59 2008 From: carlosfpardo at gmail.com (Carlosfelipe Pardo) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:49:59 -0500 Subject: [sustran] [Fwd: Re: Slowth (was "Slow transport?")] Message-ID: <477AC397.8040007@gmail.com> didn't go through for some reason.... -------- Original Message -------- Yes! This was more or less what I was aiming at when I asked my initial question about "slow transport" or "slowth" or whatever name comes out of this. Other than the "tortoise and hare" concept, there are other arguments such as the whole idea behind slow food, slow cities and slow living in general (there have been various documents on this recently, such as the book by Wendy Parkins or the work of Paul Virilio). It's also interesting to see what Peter Newman mentioned about human capacities of 20-30 km/h. If you look at the history of the bicycle, everyone was afraid to ride it because of the risk of getting "bicycle face" (your face would suffer a deformation due to the "high speeds" of the vehicle). Also, people did not like the train ride because they didn?t feel they could perceive the journey and its surroundings, due to its very high speeds (initially, around 30 km/h!). And to make it all more complex, we have followed a process of ?speed desensitization? (not sure if this term is right, it?s the shortest way to describe the concept): in the 19th century, trains h were ?excessively fast? as were also bicycles, Today, speed limits of 30 km/h are difficult (or impossible) to enforce and bicycles and choo-choo trainers are the slowest vehicles one can think of. Thus, we don?t perceive the impressive acceleration of our daily lives, but we want to go faster. To reiterate the idea from the beginning: In transport and land use, greater speeds generate greater distances traveled, which in turn can generate the idea (or action) of living farther from work, study and everything else. This normally has greater sprawl as a consequence, and thus greater energy use and increased emissions. Most of this is common to many, but the issue of speed as a factor in this is normally neglected. I really think there should be more work on this issue of speed, and I've seen that speed (or slowness) has not been treated as a goal, but as a means for something else. If we improve the situation, we could see as a result: lower speeds = reduced distances traveled = living closer to work, study, etc =more appropriate densities = reduced energy use = reduced emissions? increased quality of life. Thanks for your feedback, especially around new year! Best regards, Carlosfelipe Pardo eric.britton wrote: > > Thanks, Carlos, Todd, Lee, Sujit, Simon. > > Much in this spirit I have for some years been a firm supporter of the > concept of ?slowth? ? that which occurs in situations when your top > speed is limited but somehow you get there first. Myriad examples > abound, and in addition to Aesop?s good write-up of this highly > technical point a few years back, we have the example of thousands of > cities ? Paris being one -- in which you or I just about invariably > get there first if we take our bike and not our Ferrari. > > (I am not sure as to when or where I first ran into this word, but I > have been using it rather often in my own work for more than a decade > now. > > A traffic system based on slowth is going to be carefully calibrated > to lower top speeds ? way 20 or 30 kph works well for me ? but where > the entire system leads to far steadier flows and throughput, and, > with it, greater safety, lower emissions, and higher quality of life > all around. > > If I were a young traffic engineer, I would certainly want to make > this a pillar of my life work ? which of course is exactly what > wonderful people like Hans Monderman, Jan Gehl and a growing cohort of > young practitioners are now doing. It?s a splendid thing to do. > > Eric Britton > > PS. Just looked slowth up in the Urban Dictionary which provides the > following, to me, rather unpromising definition: ?Slowness. Generally > sloth-like behavior, especially of computers or co-workers.? > (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slowth) > > PS2. That done I next looked up slowth just now in the Wikipedia and > found no entry. But now if you go to > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slowth you will see the following entry, > which I hope that one or more of you may wish to jump in and complete. > It?s a very important concept and really does need a far higher > profile. Words count. > > Slowth is a New Mobility > > transport planning concept, describing a physical situation, usually > in a city, in which lower top speeds can lead to shorter overall > travel times. > > (The traditional "model" for this is of course Aesop?s tale of the > race between the tortoise and the hare, in which the slow turtle > arrives well before the fast rabbit.) > > This is a powerful model which transport and city planners are only > recently starting to take seriously. > > A traffic system based on slowth is carefully calibrated to lower top > speeds ? 20 or 30 kph on most city streets is one common target ? but > where the entire system leads to far steadier flows and throughput, > and, with it, greater safety, lower emissions, and higher quality of > life all around. > > ************ now help make this better. ****** > From sudhir at secon.in Wed Jan 2 12:36:48 2008 From: sudhir at secon.in (Sudhir) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:06:48 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Slowth - concept Message-ID: <005801c84cf0$b4a3e100$d607a8c0@SA152A> Dear Sir, Sir, the roads are mainly designed for 30,50 and 80 kmph for access,feeder and collector/arterial categories. The major lucune in design is that it does not consider the issue of landuse development. as the road gets improved, landuse changes thus allowing more access to the road which invariably decreases the operating speed. it is a known fact that generation of shock-waves due to rapid change in speeds is the main cause of accidents. As an Engineer, i would like to see a lower speed of 30kmph as the operating speed in an ideal city. Implementing such a speed would decrease the number of fatalities in accidents. with urban people are so used to congestion that unhindered movement of 30kmph would allow them to traverse the city through one end to another end in an hour thus improving the throughputs without allowing any dissent. the main issue is should we allow such an arrangement to all modes?? Or should we allow the mass transportation modes which are only 5% of all vehicular modes to travel at 30kmph slowing down the other modes intentionally. Regards Sudhir From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Wed Jan 2 17:38:07 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:38:07 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Slowth In-Reply-To: <477AC16E.3020109@gmail.com> References: <477AC16E.3020109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003701c84d1a$cf6106b0$6e231410$@britton@ecoplan.org> From: Carlosfelipe Pardo [mailto:carlosfpardo@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, 1 January 2008 23:41 Thanks for your support! This, I hope, will be my "pillar of life work". But I really like the term "slow transport" more than "slowth"... don't you? ************************************************************* Depends Carlos. Different words can or at least may do different jobs. Coolth is of course a complete barbarism, as well as unknown (outside of my head until recently I believe) and hence ambiguous and confusing. Slow transport is proper simple English, in itself a very strong argument. One possible advantage of letting the barbarism live for at least a bit is that it seems to create a certain flurry of interest as folks try to find out what it might mean. Which brings them to slow transport (ST). And beyond this, one possible downside of slow transport is that it will often be seen as a negative concept, where as our barbarism got right may just get people to thinking about a brave new world, in a positive sense. IN another note of this date you mention at one point that "speed limits of 30 km/h are difficult (or impossible) to enforce", which is in my view not the "problem" but rather the "problematique" Thus the challenge becomes that of solving the problematique, i.e., to use what we can find to get those top speeds down. Street architecture is a great start, both in terms of the lengths of speed-appealing straight-aways and those nice smooth surfaces that beg for the accelerator. Our traffic management friends, going all the way back to the original Woonerfs (Woonerven) in 1968, have certainly led the way on that. Then too, as many of our friends here know better than you or I, are all the great things that can be done in terms of visual narrowing, roundabouts, et al. A very long and inviting list indeed. BTW, I continue to try to factor some of this feedback into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slowth but perhaps some of you may chose to join me in this? Eric Britton From edelman at greenidea.eu Wed Jan 2 21:11:12 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 13:11:12 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: Slowth - concept In-Reply-To: <005801c84cf0$b4a3e100$d607a8c0@SA152A> References: <005801c84cf0$b4a3e100$d607a8c0@SA152A> Message-ID: <477B7F60.9040806@greenidea.eu> Hi Sudhir, Sudhir wrote: > [...] > the main issue is should we allow such an arrangement to all modes?? > Or should we allow the mass transportation modes which are only 5% of all vehicular modes to travel at 30kmph slowing down the other modes intentionally. > 5% of number of vehicles? I think a better percentage to look at is that of passenger throughput (and also emissions per passenger mile, etc.). And remember, that speed limits are just made up things, based on what is acceptable from view of crashes, getting somewhere etc. 30km/h is a good speed, I would argue, not because it slows down cars to an acceptable level (and in my view no speed for a personal car in a city is acceptable) but because it is more or less the normal top speed - or nominal speed - for cycling on level ground (not talking about sports... or tailwinds) in attention to the perception things already mentioned. BUT, thanks... that gives me a few ideas... - T > Regards > Sudhir -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net From edelman at greenidea.eu Thu Jan 3 01:13:53 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 17:13:53 +0100 Subject: [sustran] "Public Transport: Self-Harming Adverts" visits Canada and goes back to Bogota... Message-ID: <477BB841.7090200@greenidea.eu> Happy New Year!, My series on Self-Harming Adverts in Public Transport... (see NEW introduction...) ...has been updated - with a contribution from Canada, and a second one from Bogota: See... Canada: Bogota: earlier contribution from Transmillenio: Be good, T -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net From damantoro at swisscontact.or.id Wed Jan 2 20:16:58 2008 From: damantoro at swisscontact.or.id (Tory Damantoro) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 18:16:58 +0700 Subject: [sustran] Re: [NewMobilityCafe] Slow transport? Message-ID: <7DB275FD89044E4B96C42D5CC020957B5E5774@sbs2003.Swisscontact.local> Dear Carlos, Happy new year for you, your wife and your little baby. May God bless you with health and prosperity for the whole year. I remember reading a book about the history and development of sign board design (sorry I could not remember the title). Due to close relation between speed and vision, the size of sign board spans overtime. It is very much the same with architectural fa?ade. Prior to motorization era, building facade full of detail ornament that can best enjoyed with walking speed. Now days, the fastest people move the plainer building fa?ade leave the ornamental detail as an interior luxury. Regarding to the relation between speed and urban planning, it is a very good idea. I think the first thing that you have to address is the role of speed mobility in human quality of life. Hence you can derivate more detail indicator to measure it and relate it with other indicator if urban quality of life. You may also refer to transportation behavior study which determining relation between speed, side vision and geometric requirement to incorporate it. People from highway engineering are familiar with this issue. Cheers, Damantoro ________________________________ From: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 10:15 PM To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport; Newmobility Cafe; carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com Subject: [NewMobilityCafe] Slow transport? Hi, Does anyone know of any research or theory of urban planning or transport planning that takes *speed* as a factor to be taken into account? I have been searching for this and haven't found anything. I thought about this because I've seen that transport planning normally takes land use, modes, infrastructure and other factors into account, but it doesn't seem to take speed as a component in its own right. The only explicit reference I could find was Le Corbusier, who emphasizes the role of high speeds in a city, and plans around those high speeds (elevated highways, etc). Should we think about slowness as a *positive* characteristic of transport? Should we propose slow transport as one solution to the problem? I think slowness should be promoted not just for reasons of road safety but for issues of sustainability in shorter distances traveled (slower speeds means longer travel times, so people would try to reduce their travel distances) and thus lower energy expenditures and emissions. Of course, this would need us to think about strategies to reduce speeds, which would include what we're normally promoting (bicycles, pedestrian areas, 30km/h speed limits, etc). Comments on this are most welcome. Ah, and happy new year! Best regards, -- Carlosfelipe Pardo __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Links | Database | Polls | Calendar Check in here via the homepage at http://www.newmobility.org To post message to group: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com Please think twice before posting to the group as a whole (It might be that your note is best sent to one person?) MARKETPLACE ________________________________ Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. Yahoo! Groups Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Visit Your Group Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. Green Groups on Yahoo! Groups share your passion for the planet. Yahoo! Groups Health & Fitness Find and share weight loss tips. . __,_._,___ From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Tue Jan 8 14:30:38 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 06:30:38 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Sad news - Hans Monderman Message-ID: <003301c851b7$9c0075c0$d4016140$@britton@ecoplan.org> Dear Friends With much sadness I heard today of the death, early this morning, of Hans Monderman. Although he had been suffering from cancer for many months, he remained very active and uncomplaining until the end. He will be very sorely missed by all those who, like me, were able to benefit from his wisdom, intellect, courage and generosity of spirit. If anyone wishes to write to his widow Tineke, her address is: Fazant 13 9247 GK Ureterp The Netherlands Yours Ben Ben Hamilton-Baillie Hamilton-Baillie Associates Limited Dean House, 94 Whiteladies Road, Bristol BS8 2QX E-mail: ben@hamilton-baillie.co.uk Tel: 0117 911 4221 Mob: 07968 774280 www.hamilton-baillie.co.uk From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Tue Jan 8 19:51:52 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:51:52 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Homage to Hans Monderman Message-ID: <00a801c851e4$7c8dcbc0$75a96340$@britton@ecoplan.org> Hans Monderman, 1947 - 2008. In memoriam As we were going to press this morning with this report and work plan for 2008, I learned of the sad news that our deal friend and colleague Hans Monderman has passed away. As many of you know very well, Hans was an exceptionally creative , energetic and original thinker and doer. His specialty was not to write reports or go to conferences, but rather to get out onto the street and show people and policy makers what can be done if we apply our minds to it. His approach has been called Designing for Negotiation, which he in his usual modesty admitted works better in some places than others. At busy urban intersections with slow traffic, he found that it is often safer and more effective to get road users to focus on looking at one another instead of traffic control devices. An article that appeared in the New York Times on his work in 2005 started with the following, which I share with you here as a good lead-in to his original approach: "I want to take you on a walk," said Hans Monderman, abruptly stopping his car and striding - hatless, and nearly hairless - into the freezing rain. Like a naturalist conducting a tour of the jungle, he led the way to a busy intersection in the center of town, where several odd things immediately became clear. Not only was it virtually naked, stripped of all lights, signs and road markings, but there was no division between road and sidewalk. It was, basically, a bare brick square. But in spite of the apparently anarchical layout, the traffic, a steady stream of trucks, cars, buses, motorcycles, bicycles and pedestrians, moved along fluidly and easily, as if directed by an invisible conductor. When Monderman, a traffic engineer and the intersection's proud designer, deliberately failed to check for oncoming traffic before crossing the street, the drivers slowed for him. No one honked or shouted rude words out the window. "Who has the right of way?" he asked rhetorically. "I don't care. People here have to find their own way, negotiate for themselves, use their own brains. We were lucky to know about and benefit from his work over the years and when I learned that Hans's health was starting to be threatened in 2004 I took the initiative of nominating him for the 2005 Word Technology Environment Award and then putting the full force of our international network behind his nomination,. It worked and brought him to the award ceremonies in San Francisco where he thrilled the audience with his lively acceptance speech outlining his original ideas and approaches. To learn more about his work and contributions, a good place to start is the Wikipedia entry, and for a shot at his work have a look at the joyful little film that Robert Stussi turned on the occasion of a visit "Unexpected interview in Groningen: A Homage to Hand Monderman". The full text of that Times article can be had here . Hans wrote me a few lines just last Tuesday reacting to my proposal for something I call "slowth" in part derived from his work, with measuredly optimist comments that the approach to sharing space is taking hold. His note ends with the words: "I attach two pieces of text I found very challenging." Which I can now share with you: * John Adams on "Hypermobility: A Challenge to Governance", Amsterdam, 11 May 2006 * Pier Giorgio Di Cicco's Closing Address to the Oct. 2007 Walk21 Conference, Toronto, 3 Oct. 2007 I am honored to dedicate the work of the New Mobility Agenda over 2008 to the memory of Hans Monderman. We shall miss him greatly. From carlosfpardo at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 19:53:38 2008 From: carlosfpardo at gmail.com (carlosfpardo at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 05:53:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [sustran] IHT.com Article: India offers cheapest car on earth Message-ID: <20080108105338.6B4A8FA17@dumpty.iht.com> This IHT.com article has been sent to you by: carlosfpardo@gmail.com The beast is out of the cage... ------------------------------------------------------ India offers cheapest car on earth By Anand Giridharadas International Herald Tribune Tuesday, January 8, 2008 There was the $400 airplane seat that plummeted to $40. Then there was the $2,000 laptop reborn for $200. And now the $25,000 car has a $2,500 cousin. Every now and again in business history, a disruption comes along that breaks the conventional wisdom about cost, tweaking and paring features once thought untouchable. Likewise, the $2,500 car, scheduled for introduction Thursday by the Indian company Tata, swims against the current, with a rear-mounted engine, a trunk that fits little more than a briefcase, and plastics and adhesives replacing metal and bolts in certain nooks. (Some analysts expect the car to be priced closer to $3,000, still making it the cheapest on earth.) But the still-untold story of how the Tata car was built is less about big-bang innovations than about a long string of $20 trims: a steering-wheel shaft rendered hollow here, a small headlight leveler removed there, the use of an analog speedometer less accurate than its digital equivalent. The car is thus a triumph, not of one great invention but of a new engineering philosophy rising out of the developing world, with potential to change how cars everywhere are made, industry experts say. Just as Japan popularized kanban (just in time) and kaizen (continuous improvement), so Tata may export to the world what can perhaps be called "Gandhi engineering" - a mantra that combines irreverence toward established ways with a scarcity mentality that spurns superfluities. "It's basically throwing out everything the auto industry had thought about cost structures in the past and taking out a clean sheet of paper and asking, 'What's possible?' " said Daryl Rolley, the head of North American and Asian operations for Ariba, which provides parts for Tata and other auto makers like BMW and Toyota. "In the next 5 to 10 years, the whole auto industry is going to be flipped upside-down." Low-cost cars are already having global impact. Tata's move, announced in 2004, has already inspired two rivals to plan their own ultracheap cars: the French-Japanese alliance Renault-Nissan and the Indian-Japanese joint venture Maruti Suzuki. Meanwhile, struggling Western automakers are increasingly borrowing from the cost-obsessed ethos of the developing world. Yet it is unclear whether the Tata car itself, so small and wispy and lacking the most cutting-edge emissions and safety technologies, will ever drive a Western road - or whether it can sell briskly enough at home to reap a profit. The "People's Car," so called in homage to Volkswagen's Beetle and Ford's Model T, is a carefully guarded secret. The company refuses to provide details of how it was built, and it has signed legal agreements with suppliers not to divulge details. But as the debut date approaches, a handful of suppliers broke their silence to offer an early, impressionistic picture of how the automobile, a machine invented by a 19th-century German, is being propelled by 21st-century Indians across a new frontier - to cost as little as the optional DVD player on the Lexus LX470 sport utility vehicle. The handful of people who have seen the car describe a tiny, charming, four-door, five-seat hatchback shaped like a jellybean, tiny in the front and broad in the back, the better to reduce wind resistance and permit a cheaper engine. "It's a nice car - cute," said A.K. Chaturvedi, senior vice president for business development at Lumax Industries, a supplier in Delhi that developed the headlights and interior lamps for the car. Driving the cost-cutting were Tata's engineers, who in an earlier project questioned whether their trucks really needed all four brake pads or could make do with three. As they built the People's Car, for about half the price of the next-cheapest Indian alternative, their guiding philosophy appears to have been one question: Do we really need that? The model appearing Thursday has no radio, no power steering, no power windows, no air conditioning, and one windshield wiper instead of two, according to suppliers and Tata's own statements. Bucking prevailing habits, the car lacks a tachometer and uses an analog rather than digital speedometer, according to Ashok Taneja, who until recently was president of the Automotive Component Manufacturers Association of India, representing many of Tata's suppliers as they signed deals with the company. "So what if I'm going at 65 or 75?" Taneja said, referring to the use of a less precise speedometer. The frugal method also pervades the car's internal machinery, invisible to consumers but perhaps with even greater implications for the vehicle's safety and longevity. To save just $10, Tata engineers redesigned the suspension to eliminate actuators in the headlights, the levelers that adjust the angle of the beam depending on how the car is loaded, according to Chaturvedi of Lumax. In lieu of the solid steel beam that typically connects steering wheels to axles, one supplier, Sona Koyo Steering Systems, used a hollow tube, said Kiran Deshmukh, the Delhi company's chief operating officer. The car's cheapness could come at the cost of longevity. For example, Tata chose wheel bearings that are strong enough to drive the car up to 70 kilometers, or 45 miles, an hour, but will suffer wear and tear above that speed, reducing the car's life span but never threatening consumer safety, according to Taneja. "When I need silver," he said, "why am I investing in gold?" Tata's focus on reducing the weight curbed material costs and also permitted a cheaper engine. People familiar with the car describe a $700 rear-mounted engine built by the German company Bosch, measuring 600 to 660 cubic centimeters, with a horsepower in the range of 30 to 35 - no more powerful than some commercial lawn mowers. The Tata car, according to industry experts, runs on the somewhat forgotten technology of continuous variable transmission, a lighter alternative to the manual or automatic kinds. Conceived by Leonardo da Vinci in the late 15th century, it is an elegant, stepless transmission reliant on pulleys. While it was never popular in the United States because of often sluggish acceleration, continuous transmission was once widespread in Europe and has resurfaced in the United States in offerings like the Nissan Murano SUV and the Toyota Prius. Even as Tata reverted to old technologies, it embraced cutting-edge sourcing practices, said Rolley at Ariba, which has assisted both Tata and its foreign rivals with buying parts. Traditionally, carmakers cultivated long-term relationships with suppliers, but companies have gradually embraced electronic sourcing, using Internet auctions that force multiple suppliers to compete for business. Yet even the most efficient carmakers buy no more than 10 percent to 15 percent of parts electronically, Rolley said, while Tata sources 30 percent to 40 percent of its parts that way. Critics of the Tata car have asked how a car that prunes thousands of dollars from regular prices can comply with safety and environmental norms. The answer may be that it comes at a fortuitous moment in India's developmental arc, when India is affluent enough to support vigorous demand for cars but not yet so affluent as to have enacted the regulations common to wealthy countries. Tata executives say the car will comply with all Indian norms. But those norms are changing, and so might the car's price. India's major cities plan to adopt the Euro IV emissions standard in April 2010, requiring a costly reduction in sulfur emissions to a 35th of those allowed in the current Euro III standard, according to Anumita Roychowdhury of the Center for Science and Environment in New Delhi. New safety rules mandating airbags, antilock brakes and full-body crash tests are also forthcoming, she said. Roychowdhury gives the car "not much" chance of retaining its populist price tag. That happens to many ultra-cheap offerings: even the "$100 laptop" ended up selling for $200 over the recent holiday season. And the car may be less than environmentally friendly even in complying with Indian standards. Unlike U.S. cars, Indian ones are not tested after use on real roads, which often batter the systems that curb emissions. Michael Walsh, a pollution consultant and former U.S. Environmental Protection Agency regulator, said that a car so cheap was likely to lack the complex technology to maintain its initial level of emissions and that without such technology cars could pollute four to five times their initial amount before long. "It strikes me as impossible that such a vehicle will be a very clean vehicle over the life of the vehicle," Walsh said. In a recent interview, Ratan Tata, chairman of Tata Group, also suggested that the car's lightness, while favorable for the environment, had frustrated efforts to make it safe. "We will have far lower emissions than today's low-end cars," he said. But, he added, "The emissions standards were much easier to meet than the crash test." That is understandable. In most U.S. cars, safety features alone cost more than $2,500, said Adrian Lund, president of the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety in Arlington, Virginia. But, he added, "If what we're talking about in India is people having the option of getting off the streets, from motorcycles and bicycles where they are at risk from bigger vehicles, this may actually be an improvement of the safety environment." Even if the Tata car never plies Western roads, the philosophy behind it will influence global car makers, Rolley of Ariba said. Manufacturers are searching for ways to make small cars for the middle class in India and China; to produce small cars for their own home markets, roiled by rising gasoline prices; and to improve the profitability of existing larger cars. With old tactics failing, Tata's car will be mined for applicable lessons, Rolley said. Automakers will create more cars from scratch with low cost built in from the start, Rolley said, and embrace the sensibility in which every design choice is made with cost foremost in mind. After Renault-Nissan began making cheap cars in Romania, it cross-pollinated low-cost engineering techniques to its plants producing more expensive models - for example, making doors flatter so they could be stacked in greater volume in shipping containers, according to a Nissan spokeswoman. Consumers in wealthy nations can perhaps expect more thin doors, hollow steering shafts, actuator-free headlights and tiny trunks. "This will be no different," Rolley said, "from when U.S. companies spent a whole decade in the '80s thinking about what Japanese management techniques they had to adopt." iht.com/biz http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/07/business/car.php From whook at itdp.org Wed Jan 9 00:31:26 2008 From: whook at itdp.org (Walter Hook) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:31:26 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Homage to Hans Monderman In-Reply-To: <00a801c851e4$7c8dcbc0$75a96340$@britton@ecoplan.org> Message-ID: <000001c8520b$8926fa10$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> It is a real shame. John Howe and I were sitting together at an ICE organized workshop, in Utrecht I think, when we first heard Hans speak. John and I both shook our heads, and said to each other, 'amazing'. He generously shared his powerpoints, which have gotten a lot of use since then! He turned so much of our thinking on our heads. He started us walking down a new path. Ahead, in the foggy distance, are enticing other possibilities that we would never have dreamed of, had it not been for Hans. Walter -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of eric.britton Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 5:52 AM To: Sustran Resource Centre Subject: [sustran] Homage to Hans Monderman Hans Monderman, 1947 - 2008. In memoriam As we were going to press this morning with this report and work plan for 2008, I learned of the sad news that our deal friend and colleague Hans Monderman has passed away. As many of you know very well, Hans was an exceptionally creative , energetic and original thinker and doer. His specialty was not to write reports or go to conferences, but rather to get out onto the street and show people and policy makers what can be done if we apply our minds to it. His approach has been called Designing for Negotiation, which he in his usual modesty admitted works better in some places than others. At busy urban intersections with slow traffic, he found that it is often safer and more effective to get road users to focus on looking at one another instead of traffic control devices. An article that appeared in the New York Times on his work in 2005 started with the following, which I share with you here as a good lead-in to his original approach: "I want to take you on a walk," said Hans Monderman, abruptly stopping his car and striding - hatless, and nearly hairless - into the freezing rain. Like a naturalist conducting a tour of the jungle, he led the way to a busy intersection in the center of town, where several odd things immediately became clear. Not only was it virtually naked, stripped of all lights, signs and road markings, but there was no division between road and sidewalk. It was, basically, a bare brick square. But in spite of the apparently anarchical layout, the traffic, a steady stream of trucks, cars, buses, motorcycles, bicycles and pedestrians, moved along fluidly and easily, as if directed by an invisible conductor. When Monderman, a traffic engineer and the intersection's proud designer, deliberately failed to check for oncoming traffic before crossing the street, the drivers slowed for him. No one honked or shouted rude words out the window. "Who has the right of way?" he asked rhetorically. "I don't care. People here have to find their own way, negotiate for themselves, use their own brains. We were lucky to know about and benefit from his work over the years and when I learned that Hans's health was starting to be threatened in 2004 I took the initiative of nominating him for the 2005 Word Technology Environment Award and then putting the full force of our international network behind his nomination,. It worked and brought him to the award ceremonies in San Francisco where he thrilled the audience with his lively acceptance speech outlining his original ideas and approaches. To learn more about his work and contributions, a good place to start is the Wikipedia entry, and for a shot at his work have a look at the joyful little film that Robert Stussi turned on the occasion of a visit "Unexpected interview in Groningen: A Homage to Hand Monderman". The full text of that Times article can be had here . Hans wrote me a few lines just last Tuesday reacting to my proposal for something I call "slowth" in part derived from his work, with measuredly optimist comments that the approach to sharing space is taking hold. His note ends with the words: "I attach two pieces of text I found very challenging." Which I can now share with you: * John Adams on "Hypermobility: A Challenge to Governance", Amsterdam, 11 May 2006 * Pier Giorgio Di Cicco's Closing Address to the Oct. 2007 Walk21 Conference, Toronto, 3 Oct. 2007 I am honored to dedicate the work of the New Mobility Agenda over 2008 to the memory of Hans Monderman. We shall miss him greatly. -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Thu Jan 10 03:09:46 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 19:09:46 +0100 Subject: [sustran] condolence registry for Hans Monderman Message-ID: <056701c852ea$d3310850$799318f0$@britton@ecoplan.org> A condolence registry for messages that will reach Hans's colleagues and family has been set up at http://www.shared-space.org/default.asp?ObjectID=24828 On January 7th the sad news reached us that Mr. Hans Monderman, head of the Shared Space Expert Team, had died at the age of 62. Hans was an impassioned person. He showed vision and since the eighties he had worked untiringly for his ideal: restoring human measure to street and society. In this way he did not only lay the foundation for the European Shared Space project but he also managed to inspire and challenge a countless number of people from all over the world to look critically at themselves and their environment. He was frequently able point out failings and mistakes that most took for granted, and was never discouraged by the sceptism or hostile reactions that such pioneering work generated. Especially in his own professional field, the traffic sector, he regularly encountered a lack of understanding. However, he was not daunted by this but used this 'feedback' to elaborate his vision further. We will certainly miss Hans' contribution, commitment and enthusiasm as the pater familias of the Shared Space project. We wish his wife and children much strength to cope with this loss. From litman at vtpi.org Fri Jan 11 03:23:13 2008 From: litman at vtpi.org (Todd Alexander Litman) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:23:13 -0800 Subject: [sustran] VTPI NEWS - Winter 2008 Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080110102228.076c7568@mail.islandnet.com> ----------- VTPI NEWS ----------- Victoria Transport Policy Institute "Efficiency - Equity - Clarity" ------------------------------------- Winter 2008 Vol. 11, No. 1 ----------------------------------- The Victoria Transport Policy Institute is an independent research organization dedicated to developing innovative solutions to transportation problems. The VTPI website (http://www.vtpi.org ) has many resources addressing a wide range of transport planning and policy issues. VTPI also provides consulting services. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ACTION ALERT ============== "Tax-Free Transit Benefits In Canada" (http://www.vtpi.org/TT_alert.htm ) For more than a decade VTPI has promoted employer-based incentives for public transit, called "tax-free transit benefit" or "tax-free transit passes" (http://www.vtpi.org/tdm/tdm8.htm ). There is now a promising opportunity to have this policy established in Canada?s tax code. If you are a Canadian resident, your support can help. Please click the link above for information. NEW DOCUMENTS ============== "Smart Transportation Emission Reductions" (http://www.vtpi.org/ster.pdf ) This report investigates how to identify the optimal (best overall, taking into account all benefits and costs) transportation emission reduction strategies. Current evaluation methods tend to undervalue mobility management due to various types of biases. More comprehensive and objective analysis tends to rank mobility management strategies among the most cost-effective emission reduction options. This report describes ways to correct current planning bias so mobility management solutions can be implemented to the degree optimal. "Measuring The Performance Of Transit-Oriented Developments In Western Australia," (http://www.vtpi.org/renne_tod_performance.pdf ) This new report by Professor John Renne summarizes factors to consider when evaluating TOD transport, economic social and environmental impacts. It recommends longitudinal measurement of performance indicators in six categories, including travel behaviour, the local economy, the natural environment, the built environment, the social environment and the policy context. "Sustainable Transportation Indicators: A Recommended Program To Define A Standard Set of Indicators For Sustainable Transportation Planning" (www.vtpi.org/sustain/sti.pdf ) This paper, a cooperative effort by the Transportation Research Board?s 'Sustainable Transportation Indicators Subcommittee' (ADD40 [1]), discusses how to develop a standard set of indicators for sustainable transportation evaluation. It describes sustainable transportation definitions and concepts, discusses factors to consider when selecting indictors, recommends specific sustainable transportation indicators, and discusses issues of data quality. We hope this will lead to the development of a standardized set of sustainable transportation indictors for worldwide use. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ UPDATED DOCUMENTS ============== "Appropriate Response To Rising Fuel Prices" (www.vtpi.org/fuelprice.pdf ) This paper evaluates public policy options for responding to rising fuel prices. There is popular support for policies to minimize retail prices by reducing fuel taxes or providing production subsidies. But price-minimization policies are likely to harm consumers and the economy overall by encouraging transportation system inefficiency. Rather than reducing fuel prices it would be better to allow prices to rise and simultaneously working to improve transport system efficiency. "Smart Growth Reforms" (http://www.vtpi.org/smart_growth_reforms.pdf ) This paper identifies specific policy, planning, regulatory and fiscal reforms that support smart growth. "Land Use Impacts On Transport" (http://www.vtpi.org/landtravel.pdf ). This paper examines how various land use factors such as density, regional accessibility, mix and roadway connectivity affect travel behavior, including per capita vehicle travel, mode split and nonmotorized travel. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ IN THE NEWS ============ "Connected Urban Development" program with Cisco Systems and the Clinton Foundation (http://commitments.clintonglobalinitiative.org/projects.htm?mode=progressreport&rid=43067&blogId=216 ). I'm a special advisor on transportation and land use planning. The project will include bus transit improvements, a handheld navigation device (a mobile telephone with web-browsing, GPS and automatic fare payment capabilities), road pricing (likely to be implemented in Seoul), some smart growth policies, plus promotion of telework. For more information see Ted Samson's InfoWorld Sustainable IT blog (http://weblog.infoworld.com/sustainableit/archives/2007/12/cisco_clinton_g.html ). We Rock Geekaliciously! (http://www.sightline.org/daily_score/archive/2007/10/15/congestion-is-the-cure-worse-than-the-disease ) Litman's Planetizen Blogs (http://www.planetizen.com/user/2394 ). VTPI Executive Director Todd Litman shares information and insites in blogs posted on Planetizen, a public-interest information exchange for urban planners, designs, and developers. Below are examples: "Smart Emission Reduction Strategies" (http://www.planetizen.com/node/28841 ). "Place Trumps Mobility Equals Paradise," Planetizen Blog (http://www.planetizen.com/node/28195 ) "Smart Growth Safety Benefits," Planetizen Blog (http://www.planetizen.com/node/28523 ) "Ten Insights on Carbon Policy," Seeking Alpha ? Stock Market Opinion & Analysis" (http://seekingalpha.com/article/56026-ten-insights-on-carbon-policy ), by Tom Konrad. "Transportation model decreased travel costs, added options" The Daily Journal (http://www.daily-journal.com/archives/dj/display.php?id=406356 ), 26 October 2007. "Gas prices affect TransLink" Georgia Straight (http://www.straight.com/article-115501/gas-prices-affect-translink ), 25 October 2007. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ BEEN THERE, DONE THAT ========================== "US Conference of Mayors Climate Protection Summit" (www.seattle.gov/mayor/climateSummit2007.htm ) The two-day U.S. Conference of Mayors' Climate Protection Summit in Seattle, included presentations by former President Bill Clinton, Vice President Al Gore via satellite, New York Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, and VTPI E.D. Todd Litman. This event stressed the importance of local and regional actions to create more livable, efficient and sustainable communities (http://www.smartgrowth.org/news/article.asp?art=6336&state=52 ). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ UPCOMING EVENTS ================ Transportation Research Board Annual Meeting (http://www.trb.org/meeting ). Below are some events VTPI will participate in: Workshop 141, "Cutting Carbs in the Transportation Sector: International Efforts to Address Global Climate Change," Sunday, 13 January 2008, 12:15pm-5:30pm, Hilton, International East 'Macrolevel Collision Prediction Models to Evaluate Road Safety Effects of Mobility Management Strategies: New Empirical Tools to Promote Sustainable Development' (08-2385), http://www.trb.org/am/ip/paper_detail.asp?paperid=21962, Poster Session 253, Monday, January 14, 2008, 9:30am-12:00pm. "Evaluating Quality of Accessibility for Transportation Planning" (08-0495); SESSION #: 332, Monday, January 14, 2008, 2:30pm- 5:00pm. (http://www.vtpi.org/access.pdf ) "Valuing Service Quality Improvements in Transport Planning" (08-0998); SESSION #: 337, Monday, January 14, 2008, 2:30pm- 5:00pm (http://www.vtpi.org/quality.pdf ) Transportation and Sustainability Committee" (ADD40); Monday, January 14, 2008, 7:30 PM - 9:30 PM, Hilton Map Room, Hilton Hotel "Sustainable Transportation Indicators Subcommittee" (ADD40[1]); SESSION MMM08-035, Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 12:15pm- 1:15pm Bancroft Room, Hilton Hotel "Performance Measures for Sustainability" (Session 677); Wednesday, January 16, 2008, 10:15 AM - 12:00 PM, Hilton "New Perspectives on Sustainable Transportation" (Session 734); Wednesday, January 16, 2008, 4:30 PM - 6:00 PM, Hilton "The Carmichael Conference On The Future of American Transportation," (http://www.nationalcorridors.org ), St. Louis, MO, January 28-29, 2008. This conference is organized by the National Corridors Initiative with the support of major transportation advocacy organizations including AASHTO, APTA, NARP, ETC. "Transportation Demand Management Toolkit" (http://www.academicimpressions.com/pdf/0108-transportation-demand.pdf ), January 28-30, San Diego, CA. This conference on Campus Transport Management (http://www.vtpi.org/tdm/tdm5.htm ) will help participants learn to plan and implement techniques that can reduce parking costs, improve town-gown relations, help green your campus, and reduce single occupant vehicle trips to and around campus. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ USEFUL RESOURCES ================= "Growing Cooler: The Evidence on Urban Development and Climate Change," (http://www.smartgrowthamerica.org/gcindex.html ). This book documents how land development changes could help reduce vehicle greenhouse gas emissions, based on a comprehensive review of dozens of studies. The authors make the case that one of the best ways to reduce vehicle travel is compact development: building places in which people can get from one place to another without driving. "Transport and Climate Change: A new module of the GTZ Sustainable Urban Transport Sourcebook" (http://www.sutp.org/component/option,com_docman/task,doc_details/gid,383/lang,uk ) This new module summarises the challenges that climate change mitigation has to face in the transport sector and presents options to deal with them. "Smart Growth E-Learning Portal" (http://www.moodleserv.com/smartgrowthca ), is an educational program describing various smart growth concepts and implementation strategies, developed by the Smart Growth Canada Network, sponsored by Natural Resources Canada. "ITE Journal? (http://www.ite.org/itejournal/0711.asp ), Vol. 77, No. 11, November 2007. This issue includes two excellent articles which indicate that the Institute of Transportation Engineers supports multiple modes and community livability: 'President's Award for Merit in Transportation Engineering: Road Diet Handbook,', by Jennifer A. Rosales. This award-winning paper describes the benefits of road diets and how they can be implemented. "Innovative Intermodal Solutions for Urban Transportation Paper Award: Quantifying Transit-Oriented Development's Ability To Change Travel Behavior," by John Gard. This award-winning paper summarizes information on transit-oriented development impacts on transit rider and automobile trip generation. It indicates that TOD typically increases per captia transit ridership 2-5 times and reduces vehicle trip generation 8% to 32%. "Your Next Move: Choosing a Neighbourhood with Sustainable Features," (http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/odpub/pdf/62180.pdf ), helps consumers evaluate community sustainability when selecting a home. It describes features that create safe, convenient, environmentally-friendly and affordable neighborhoods. 'Making Cycling Irresistible: Lessons from the Netherlands, Denmark, and Germany,' by John Pucher and Ralph Buehler, published in "Transport Reviews," Vol. 28, No. 4, July 2008; at http://www.policy.rutgers.edu/faculty/pucher/Irresistible.pdf . This paper describes the policies and planning practices that result in very high levels of cycling transportation in the Netherlands, Denmark, and Germany, and the feasibility of applying these strategies in other countries. "Design Guidelines for 'Greening' Surface Parking Lots," (http://www.toronto.ca/planning/urbdesign/greening_parking_lots.htm ). These Guidelines by the City of Toronto are designed to deal with common urban design and environmental challenges found within and around surface parking lots. Two Cool Videos: "Ciclovia and Recreovia" (http://www.streetfilms.org/archives/ciclovia ). This video clip shows the 'Ciclovia and Recreovia' program, in which major streets in Bogota, Columbia are closed to motor vehicle traffic so residents can walk, bike, run, skate, recreate, picnic, and visit. "Parking Illustrated: Toy Cars And Stop-Motion Animation Show How Parking Reform Can Work,? (http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/21/donald-shoup-plays-with-parking-fees-and-matchbox-cars ). A fun video with Parking Master Professor Donald Shoup. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please let us know if you have comments or questions about any information in this newsletter, or if you would like to be removed from our email list. And please pass this newsletter on to others who may find it useful. Sincerely, Todd Alexander Litman Victoria Transport Policy Institute (www.vtpi.org) litman@vtpi.org Phone & Fax 250-360-1560 1250 Rudlin Street, Victoria, BC, V8V 3R7, CANADA ?Efficiency - Equity - Clarity? From sunny.enie at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 13:34:04 2008 From: sunny.enie at gmail.com (Sunny) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:34:04 +0700 Subject: [sustran] Tata Nano aimed at common man, says Kamal Nath Message-ID: <27b8dced0801102034o77484e6ehad047ca569e7e72f@mail.gmail.com> Tata Nano aimed at common man, says Kamal Nath Nano, Tata Motors' Rs 1,00,000 "people's car" unveiled at the Auto Expo 2008 in New Delhi on Thursday will help the common man shift from two-wheelers to four-wheelers, Commerce Minister Kamal Nath said. "This is a proud moment for India. It demonstrates India's technological and entrepreneurial ability," Kamal Nath told reporters on Thursday. "It fulfils the need of the common Indian who aspires to move from a two-wheeler to a four-wheeler," he added. Tata Motors chairman Ratan Tata spoke in a similar vein at a press conference immediately after unveiling the Nano. "I have observed families riding on two-wheelers - the father driving the scooter, his young son standing in front of him, his wife seated behind him, holding a baby," he said. "It made me to wonder whether one could conceive of a safe, affordable, all-weather form of transport for such a family," Tata added. "Tata Motors' engineers and designers gave their all for about four years to realise this goal. Today, we indeed have a people's car that is affordable and meets safety and emission norms." Tata said. "We are happy to present the people's car to India and we hope it brings the joy, pride and utility of owning a car to many families who need personal mobility," he added. Jagidsh Khattar, the former chief of Maruti Udyog Limited that manufactures Maruti 800 that "Nano" is seen to target, said it was early days yet for this to happen. "It's a good product but it's still too early to say whether it will overtake the (Maruti) 800 because it caters to a totally new market segment," he pointed out. An official of Hyundai Motors that unveiled an LPG version of its Santro Thursday was more direct. "We definitely see it as impacting on our sales," he said, speaking on condition of anonymity. Bajaj Auto head Rajiv Bajaj wondered about Nano's commercial viability and whether Tata Motors would be able to maintain the Rs 1,00,000 ($2,500) price tag. "My scepticism about the Tata car is not about Tata's ability to put it together but to put it together at the price of Rs1,00,000. I still haven't heard them (the Tatas) say it will be profitable," Bajaj said. The Tata car could "jam cities" and raise pollution, NGO Centre for Science and Environment said. Pointing out that the average vehicle speed in the national capital had dropped, CSE said on its website: "As congestion builds up and vehicles slow down, emissions increase up to five times." From sunny.enie at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 13:53:30 2008 From: sunny.enie at gmail.com (Sunny) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:53:30 +0700 Subject: [sustran] Why critics of the Tata small car are barking up the wrong tree news Message-ID: <27b8dced0801102053o46e72292k526e7060b94cabc9@mail.gmail.com> Why critics of the Tata small car are barking up the wrong tree news Vivek Sharma 10 January 2008 Those who criticise the Tata small car are barking up the wrong tree and some of their arguments are elitist and discriminatory. "India is in serious danger", warned the hugely popular New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman last November in one of his columns. The danger, he said, is from the $2,500-Tata small car which he believes is a highly retrograde initiative from a country capable of incredible innovation. Why is Friedman so worried about a car that may never be seen on American roads? Because, he is very concerned about the well-being of us Indians! He is worried that we will make an even bigger mess of our road traffic and pollute our way to motoring bliss. He even asked Americans to urge Indians not to imitate the indulgent American way of life, but leapfrog and invent 'cheap-scale', sustainable solutions to big problems like public transport. On the face of it, the column reads like yet another patronising sermon from a westerner baulking at the thought of third world masses enjoying cheap personal transport the way Americans do. But Friedman, a three times Pulitzer prize winner, is unlikely to harbour any prejudice against India and Indians. After all, one of his biggest claims to fame is a true 'eureka moment' when it dawned on him that 'the world is flat' - while playing golf in Bangalore! The picture of Bangalore he paints in that book, with gleaming skyscrapers housing development centres for Microsoft, Sun and Oracle adorning his view from the golf course, would easily beat BJP's old 'India Shining' campaign. Tom Friedman is not alone in deriding the Tata small car. Ever since Ratan Tata announced his intention to build the cheapest car ever, there has been no let up from a variety of Tata baiters. Some competitors ridiculed the idea and questioned the company's ability to launch a car at such a low price. Green activists and 'concerned' souls, much before it caught Friedman's attention, have been warning us of the terrible fate that awaits us if the small car becomes a reality. Their objections range from vehicle safety to pollution and some of them sound plain elitist in their arguments. The elite who pretend to be liberals Last year, a columnist in a major Indian financial newspaper wondered how this country could allow a product like the Tata small car that would make our urban lives messier and all the more tedious. This is one of the biggest complaints against the Tata small car. But the question is, messier and tedious for whom? Obviously the urban rich, for the lives of the urban lower middle class and the poor cannot be made any messier! So, those who cannot afford more expensive cars must stick to their motorbikes so that the rich can continue to enjoy comfortable rides in thin traffic! Another curious argument is that most of the potential buyers of the Tata car would have no parking space at their homes. So, it is said, they will all start parking their puny little cars by the roadside and clog traffic. A car manufacturer cannot be asked to sell to only those who have their own parking space. It is the potential buyers' problem to find a safe parking space. If they cannot find adequate parking space, or find parking to be very expensive, they will not take out their cars very often or will abstain from buying them in the worst case. Given our 'highly developed civic sense' and 'ready willingness to obey the rules', it is likely that many of the new small car owners would conveniently park their vehicles where they should not. But, doesn't that happen even now with those who can afford expensive cars? It is the rich who flout traffic rules more blatantly and it is very likely that cars left at 'no parking' areas will be the most expensive ones because they know the traffic policeman will usually not dare to touch the 'sahib's gaadi'. When that is the case, this argument smacks of blatant elitism. The less affluent cannot be denied the safety and comfort of a cheap four-wheeled vehicle, only because the existing infrastructure will come under further strain. Any move to restrict the number of cars should apply to all vehicles, irrespective of their cost. Even then, it should be ensured that the costs of such measures - like increased road taxes and parking charges - should be proportionate to the owners' ability to pay. Anything else will be discriminatory and simply unfair. The safety bogey Another potential fault critics have come up with is safety. "When you lower prices that drastically, how will you be able to meet safety standards?" - Anumita Roychoudhury of the Centre for Science and Environment (CES), one of the most-quoted critics of the Tata car, is reported to have asked. Does she really believe that there are no safety standards for vehicles in India? Even if they are inadequate, are we supposed to believe that a manufacturer from the House of Tatas, would risk its reputation and compromise on safety just to cut costs? Even if the Tata small car is deemed less safe in terms of passenger injuries in the event of a collision, we need to remember that nobody in their right senses would enter such a car in a drag race! Neither will any sensible driver try to test the car's speed limit on our dangerous highways. Most potential buyers, ordinary middle class buyers, will drive the car to work or take their families for an outing on weekends. Is the probability of high speed collisions on our city roads, where the average speed is in the range of 20 to 30 kmph, so high? In high-speed highway collisions, will the passengers in other small cars like the Maruti 800, Alto or even a Santro fare any better? Furthermore, won't the Tata small car be far safer for lower middle class families who now use motorcycles and scooters with only the rider wearing a safety helmet in equally "dangerous" traffic conditions? Roychoudhury has also argued that the Tata car has "not much chance" of retaining its price tag when safety features like airbags and anti-lock brakes are made standard in all vehicles. It is Ratan Tata who should worry about that, not his detractors. Oh! Shouldn't his critics be happier if the car becomes costlier and beyond the reach of its target customers! The pollution bogey R K Pachauri, with all the added gravitas from the Nobel Peace Prize, said the Tata small car is giving him "nightmares" - presumably implying the environmental impact of emissions from more cars on our streets. He is one of the biggest stars of the global warming campaigners, second only to Al Gore, and it is understandable that he gets nightmares. Just when he and his scientists and experts had convinced the sceptics that global warming was for real, here is a company from his own country, which he believes, is hell bent on worsening the problem! Roychoudhury of CES is worried that "we have a time bomb ticking away" in terms of the environmental impact of hundreds of thousands of Tata small cars that will flood the streets in the coming years. Others are no less appalled or frightened. But, how real is the potential pollution problem posed by the Tata small car? Ratan Tata has said that the car's emissions will be comparable to two-wheelers on a per passenger basis. That is assuming that the car will always have four passengers, which is unlikely. So, if the car replaces as many two-wheelers on our roads, total emissions will undoubtedly be higher. But there is a potential upside, too. The Tata small car is said to be twice as fuel-efficient as other small cars. So, if some of the existing and potential owners of other small cars switch to the new car, the increase in overall fuel demand and emissions will be lower. Again, it is not that millions of Tata small cars will be rolled out every year. Tata Motors' current capacity is 250,000 units per year, which is less than a quarter of the total cars produced in the country. In the long run, yes, the number of Tata small cars on our roads could be in millions. But, the number of other small car models sold over a period of as many years will also run into millions. Then, why single out the Tata car for criticism? The Tata small car will definitely increase the pace of passenger car sales. But, the incremental addition to total car sales may not be as high as it is being made out to be. On balance, potential emissions are not the "nightmare" critics want us to believe. The traffic chaos bogey More cars on roads definitely mean more congestion. But, will the Tata small car make it that worse as some fear? It is estimated that there are over 12 million vehicles in India - four wheelers and above. Around a million are being added every year, and the additions will only increase. If Tata Motors sells as much as it can produce, we will see 250,000 cars being added every year. By the time the company reaches full capacity, at the earliest in 2009-10, total number of vehicles will be around 15 million. In percentage terms, the Tata small cars will constitute less than 2 per cent of total vehicles on our roads. Even if the company doubles its capacity, it will still be less than 4 per cent. Is that a big problem? Our roads are congested in urban areas, not so much in semi-urban and rural areas. It is likely that a substantial number of Tata small cars will be sold in areas where the road traffic is not that bad. So, should the village aam aadmi also be denied a cheap personal vehicle? Even if the Tata small cars create utter traffic chaos in our cities, it may be a blessing in disguise. The transport infrastructure in our cities is pathetic probably because our netas never have to suffer traffic blocks. The big shots, who take all the decisions, have police vehicles clearing the way for them. The lesser minions, who lobby to influence the decisions, are usually chauffeured around and hence commuting is less tedious for them. So, to take a highly charitable view on our netas, it is possible that they are really not aware of the problems. When we protest loudly, they will agree to 'look into the matter', without really grasping the enormity of the problem and hence cannot be blamed for forgetting the promise. But, they will grasp the problem better and will be forced to 'look into it' if their cars cannot move. For them to roll down their windows and see reality, the traffic should become so bad that even police vehicles cannot clear the way. Then they will do something about our roads or let the private sector do it. I am all for mass transport systems - metro rail systems, high capacity buses on dedicated lanes and so on - for our cities. Many commuters would prefer public transport to driving their own cars, provided they are safe, comfortable and reliable. There is no doubt that, in the not too distant future, a majority of city dwellers will switch to public transport from cars. Because it will be impossible to take out the cars daily and our public transport systems would have improved beyond recognition by then. But, that will be a gradual transition. All we can do is to exert pressure to speed up the process, and that is what all the activists railing against the Tata small car should be doing. Until we have better public transport, commuters would prefer personal transport - if they can afford it - and there will be huge demand for personal vehicles. You cannot fault a business for trying to meet market demand, in a supposedly liberalised economy. If the Tatas had not done it, somebody else would have. Bajaj already has a prototype ready! All those who are arguing against the Tata small car are barking up the wrong tree! From sunny.enie at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 14:34:16 2008 From: sunny.enie at gmail.com (Sunny) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:34:16 +0700 Subject: [sustran] Links for the news items posted earlier Message-ID: <27b8dced0801102134p40530a55we027557c2fe4189a@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, I forgot to send the links for the news i posted before. Please find the same below. cheers sunny Tata Nano aimed at common man, says Kamal Nath Link: http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=decfe71c-4d4c-4b8b-9db8-145faf7ce6d6&MatchID1=4619&TeamID1=3&TeamID2=4&MatchType1=1&SeriesID1=1163&MatchID2=4617&TeamID3=3&TeamID4=4&MatchType2=1&SeriesID2=1163&PrimaryID=4619&Headline=Tata+Nano+aimed+at+common+man%2c+says+Kamal+Nath Why critics of the Tata small car are barking up the wrong tree http://www.domain-b.com/companies/companies_t/Tata_Motors/20080110_tata_small_car.html From cowherdr at wit.edu Fri Jan 11 20:40:14 2008 From: cowherdr at wit.edu (Robert Cowherd) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:40:14 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Tata Car and getting our act together In-Reply-To: <27b8dced0801102053o46e72292k526e7060b94cabc9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Despite the thinness of Sharma's laying out of one specious argument after another, the elitist charge has a history of stopping otherwise well-meaning and effective people in their tracks. This comes at a great cost. The double whammie here is how nicely the elitist charge meshes with the petro-automaker public campaign to extend personal mobility (automobility) to the developing world as a social justice imperative. Unfortunately, as in telling Brazil to stop cutting its rainforests, the elitism charge has teeth. The key is to mobilize the measures to restrict auto use, not necessarily ownership (see Singapore), in ways that benefit the poor first (congestion pricing funding bus-only right of ways, etc.). The Tata car makes it clearer than even it has been that the reasons for the developed west to get its act together is quickly becoming less about reducing our direct global impact and more about our effectiveness in presenting a model for India, China, Indonesia and the rest of the developing world before our cultural appeal and thus our capacity to lead fades to black. Robert Cowherd, PhD, Associate Professor of Architecture Wentworth Institute of Technology 550 Huntington Ave. Boston, MA 02115 USA cowherdr@wit.edu; +1 617 989-4453 On 1/10/08 11:53 PM, "Sunny" wrote: > Why critics of the Tata small car are barking up the wrong tree news > Vivek Sharma > 10 January 2008 > > Those who criticise the Tata small car are barking up the wrong tree and > some of their arguments are elitist and discriminatory. > From schipper at wri.org Sat Jan 12 22:58:42 2008 From: schipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:58:42 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Car and getting our act together References: Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342CC73907@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Let me propose a simple equation -- weight the benefits of the "Nano" owners (whomever they may turn out to be) against the disbenefits of the large majority of Indians on foot (note I did not say "on the sidewalk"),on pedals, or on two wheelers. Seeing the current onslaught of two wheelers against "foot people" and against each other in India, I have a hard time believing that the benefits will outweight the disbenefits. If you want to argue that some day a huge percentage of Indians will be driving Nanos, which will somehow mean that foot people are no longer at risk then I would simply argue that Indian cities will have collapsed under the tires of cars.... Lee Schipper EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org >From Oct 1, Visiting Scholar, UC Transportation Center UC Berkeley, CA www.uctc.net 510 642 6889 202 262 7476 ________________________________ From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Robert Cowherd Sent: Fri 1/11/2008 3:40 AM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Tata Car and getting our act together Despite the thinness of Sharma's laying out of one specious argument after another, the elitist charge has a history of stopping otherwise well-meaning and effective people in their tracks. This comes at a great cost. The double whammie here is how nicely the elitist charge meshes with the petro-automaker public campaign to extend personal mobility (automobility) to the developing world as a social justice imperative. Unfortunately, as in telling Brazil to stop cutting its rainforests, the elitism charge has teeth. The key is to mobilize the measures to restrict auto use, not necessarily ownership (see Singapore), in ways that benefit the poor first (congestion pricing funding bus-only right of ways, etc.). The Tata car makes it clearer than even it has been that the reasons for the developed west to get its act together is quickly becoming less about reducing our direct global impact and more about our effectiveness in presenting a model for India, China, Indonesia and the rest of the developing world before our cultural appeal and thus our capacity to lead fades to black. Robert Cowherd, PhD, Associate Professor of Architecture Wentworth Institute of Technology 550 Huntington Ave. Boston, MA 02115 USA cowherdr@wit.edu; +1 617 989-4453 On 1/10/08 11:53 PM, "Sunny" wrote: > Why critics of the Tata small car are barking up the wrong tree news > Vivek Sharma > 10 January 2008 > > Those who criticise the Tata small car are barking up the wrong tree and > some of their arguments are elitist and discriminatory. > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From hghazali at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 13:47:45 2008 From: hghazali at gmail.com (Hassaan Ghazali) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:47:45 +0500 Subject: [sustran] Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime Message-ID: Friends, There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the developed and developing world create the context to despise such an incredible product? Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory oversight, etc.) are also provided. Regards, Hassaan -- Institutional Development Specialist Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & Development Department, Government of the Punjab A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) F: 9213585 M: 0345 455 6016 Skype: halgazel http://hghazali.googlepages.com *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* From regina at wholechoice.net Mon Jan 14 17:46:01 2008 From: regina at wholechoice.net (Gina Anderson) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:46:01 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080114164601.0qxb4uemo8g04o40@www.wholechoice.net> Dear Hassaan, All, when the Model T rolled off the assembly line there was definitely much excitement. Now, 80-90 years later, and with the example in the US of how debilitating automobile-centered development patterns are, how unsustainable economically and environmentally, and the health problems resulting in a society grown used to car-centered development and life - there is real cause for alarm to see something like the Nano. The problem is, that, as you say, the "whole suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory oversight, etc.)" that also need to be provided, won't be. Mass, cheap car production was bad for the US, and it will be bad for India and other countries. The seduction of allowing personal car use to become the prime mode catered for is too strong; other more efficient modes (road-space-wise, price-wise, etc) will loose out to the car. That's the real tragedy for India and the masses of people there. That is the tragedy in the US as well, where people are saddled with the costs of owning a car because in many cases there are no buses, no taxis, no trains available. Gina Anderson -- Regina Anderson, AICP WholeChoice Master Planning, Pedestrian Design, Sustainability Singapore phone +65 6467-6594 Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : > Friends, > > There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line every few > seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting and the most > positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's mobility breakthrough > has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to see so many negative > sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I don't remember so many > issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart car came out. Regardless of > the fact that the Smart car was probably one major reason for the eventual > divorce between Daimler and Chrysler, how does the economic and social > disparity between the developed and developing world create the context to > despise such an incredible product? > > Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the masses > or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole suite of > technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory oversight, > etc.) are also provided. > > Regards, > > Hassaan > > > -- > Institutional Development Specialist > Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) > Planning & Development Department, > Government of the Punjab > > A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan > T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) > F: 9213585 > M: 0345 455 6016 > Skype: halgazel > http://hghazali.googlepages.com > > *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot > post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site > makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries (the 'Global South'). > From sri at giaspn01.vsnl.net.in Mon Jan 14 13:23:27 2008 From: sri at giaspn01.vsnl.net.in (Prof J G Krishnayya) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:53:27 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Essay by Vivek Sharma forwared by Sunny-- Why critics of the Tatasmall car are barking up thewrongtree news In-Reply-To: <27b8dced0801102053o46e72292k526e7060b94cabc9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005f01c85665$3cd50c20$155741db@JGK> Mr. Sharma makes the point that those who critique the idea of the Tata Small Car for India are elitist windbags riding around in their chauffer-driven limos; and that the car, according to Ratan Tata, has emissions comparable on a per-passenger basis to those of motorcycles. In short they are 4 times as bad as motorcycles. Note that they have 2-stroke; 2-cyclinder engines. He says that 250,000 cars, which is Tata's estimate of production in the first year, would be "only" 1/4 of the number of cars already being produced in India.....That the Nano would add to congestion - but not probably in rural areas where the aam admi will now have a car. That the Nano would be parked all over the scene for lack of parking space, etc, But this does not matter, since parking and road space are not Mr. Tata's problem to deal with. Does this all sound crazy to you? It sounds like Mr. Vivek Sharma is barking mad. If the Tatas have so much design expertise at their disposal, it is sad that the first 10 low-slung busses provided, e.g. to Pune Municipal Transport two years ago could not be driven faster than 30 kmph because of vibration, and almost broke apart; that their linkages to rear engines did not work - among a list of some 25 other major faults (all documented, by the way); and that they could not repair these vehicles and put them on the road for 15 months, long after full payment had been made. The World Bank team was taken for a ride in one of these busses and got off vibrating in every bone. The House of Tata would have done India a much bigger favour if they had designed and built a series of better busses for Public transit use, intra-urban and inter-urban. As it is, Public transport in India is buying Volvo busses (bodies as well as chassis) and the Chinese King Long. Are Mr. Tata and his subordinates not ashamed that this enormous market has been gifted away to Volvo (which are extremely well liked though enormously expensive) and Chinese King Long?? It should be clear to the meanest intelligence that the Nano will become primarily a 2nd, 3rd or 4th car for upmarket urban dwellers who have parking room in their compounds, and possibly will cater also to the wealthy non-tax-paying rural upper classes. Road space that could have gone to Public Transport will now be totally absent. All the thinking behind BRT, routing and road-furniture to suit pedestrians, cyclists will go by the board while city administrators struggle with the problems of accommodating the Nano. The whole idea - while engineering-wise a remarkable achievement - is overall a retrogressive and viciously undemocratic step. And that is much before we take up either pollution or energy issues. Prof J G Krishnayya Director, Systems Research Institute, 17-A Gultekdi, PUNE 411037, India www.sripune.org Tel +91-20-2426-0323 jkrishnayya@yahoo.com Res 020-2636-3930 sri@giaspn01.vsnl.net.in Fax +91-20-2444-7902 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+sri=pn1.vsnl.net.in@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+sri=pn1.vsnl.net.in@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Sunny Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 10:24 AM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Why critics of the Tata small car are barking up thewrongtree news Why critics of the Tata small car are barking up the wrong tree news Vivek Sharma 10 January 2008 Those who criticise the Tata small car are barking up the wrong tree and some of their arguments are elitist and discriminatory. "India is in serious danger", warned the hugely popular New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman last November in one of his columns. The danger, he said, is from the $2,500-Tata small car which he believes is a highly retrograde initiative from a country capable of incredible innovation. Why is Friedman so worried about a car that may never be seen on American roads? Because, he is very concerned about the well-being of us Indians! He is worried that we will make an even bigger mess of our road traffic and pollute our way to motoring bliss. He even asked Americans to urge Indians not to imitate the indulgent American way of life, but leapfrog and invent 'cheap-scale', sustainable solutions to big problems like public transport. On the face of it, the column reads like yet another patronising sermon from a westerner baulking at the thought of third world masses enjoying cheap personal transport the way Americans do. But Friedman, a three times Pulitzer prize winner, is unlikely to harbour any prejudice against India and Indians. After all, one of his biggest claims to fame is a true 'eureka moment' when it dawned on him that 'the world is flat' - while playing golf in Bangalore! The picture of Bangalore he paints in that book, with gleaming skyscrapers housing development centres for Microsoft, Sun and Oracle adorning his view from the golf course, would easily beat BJP's old 'India Shining' campaign. Tom Friedman is not alone in deriding the Tata small car. Ever since Ratan Tata announced his intention to build the cheapest car ever, there has been no let up from a variety of Tata baiters. Some competitors ridiculed the idea and questioned the company's ability to launch a car at such a low price. Green activists and 'concerned' souls, much before it caught Friedman's attention, have been warning us of the terrible fate that awaits us if the small car becomes a reality. Their objections range from vehicle safety to pollution and some of them sound plain elitist in their arguments. The elite who pretend to be liberals Last year, a columnist in a major Indian financial newspaper wondered how this country could allow a product like the Tata small car that would make our urban lives messier and all the more tedious. This is one of the biggest complaints against the Tata small car. But the question is, messier and tedious for whom? Obviously the urban rich, for the lives of the urban lower middle class and the poor cannot be made any messier! So, those who cannot afford more expensive cars must stick to their motorbikes so that the rich can continue to enjoy comfortable rides in thin traffic! Another curious argument is that most of the potential buyers of the Tata car would have no parking space at their homes. So, it is said, they will all start parking their puny little cars by the roadside and clog traffic. A car manufacturer cannot be asked to sell to only those who have their own parking space. It is the potential buyers' problem to find a safe parking space. If they cannot find adequate parking space, or find parking to be very expensive, they will not take out their cars very often or will abstain from buying them in the worst case. Given our 'highly developed civic sense' and 'ready willingness to obey the rules', it is likely that many of the new small car owners would conveniently park their vehicles where they should not. But, doesn't that happen even now with those who can afford expensive cars? It is the rich who flout traffic rules more blatantly and it is very likely that cars left at 'no parking' areas will be the most expensive ones because they know the traffic policeman will usually not dare to touch the 'sahib's gaadi'. When that is the case, this argument smacks of blatant elitism. The less affluent cannot be denied the safety and comfort of a cheap four-wheeled vehicle, only because the existing infrastructure will come under further strain. Any move to restrict the number of cars should apply to all vehicles, irrespective of their cost. Even then, it should be ensured that the costs of such measures - like increased road taxes and parking charges - should be proportionate to the owners' ability to pay. Anything else will be discriminatory and simply unfair. The safety bogey Another potential fault critics have come up with is safety. "When you lower prices that drastically, how will you be able to meet safety standards?" - Anumita Roychoudhury of the Centre for Science and Environment (CES), one of the most-quoted critics of the Tata car, is reported to have asked. Does she really believe that there are no safety standards for vehicles in India? Even if they are inadequate, are we supposed to believe that a manufacturer from the House of Tatas, would risk its reputation and compromise on safety just to cut costs? Even if the Tata small car is deemed less safe in terms of passenger injuries in the event of a collision, we need to remember that nobody in their right senses would enter such a car in a drag race! Neither will any sensible driver try to test the car's speed limit on our dangerous highways. Most potential buyers, ordinary middle class buyers, will drive the car to work or take their families for an outing on weekends. Is the probability of high speed collisions on our city roads, where the average speed is in the range of 20 to 30 kmph, so high? In high-speed highway collisions, will the passengers in other small cars like the Maruti 800, Alto or even a Santro fare any better? Furthermore, won't the Tata small car be far safer for lower middle class families who now use motorcycles and scooters with only the rider wearing a safety helmet in equally "dangerous" traffic conditions? Roychoudhury has also argued that the Tata car has "not much chance" of retaining its price tag when safety features like airbags and anti-lock brakes are made standard in all vehicles. It is Ratan Tata who should worry about that, not his detractors. Oh! Shouldn't his critics be happier if the car becomes costlier and beyond the reach of its target customers! The pollution bogey R K Pachauri, with all the added gravitas from the Nobel Peace Prize, said the Tata small car is giving him "nightmares" - presumably implying the environmental impact of emissions from more cars on our streets. He is one of the biggest stars of the global warming campaigners, second only to Al Gore, and it is understandable that he gets nightmares. Just when he and his scientists and experts had convinced the sceptics that global warming was for real, here is a company from his own country, which he believes, is hell bent on worsening the problem! Roychoudhury of CES is worried that "we have a time bomb ticking away" in terms of the environmental impact of hundreds of thousands of Tata small cars that will flood the streets in the coming years. Others are no less appalled or frightened. But, how real is the potential pollution problem posed by the Tata small car? Ratan Tata has said that the car's emissions will be comparable to two-wheelers on a per passenger basis. That is assuming that the car will always have four passengers, which is unlikely. So, if the car replaces as many two-wheelers on our roads, total emissions will undoubtedly be higher. But there is a potential upside, too. The Tata small car is said to be twice as fuel-efficient as other small cars. So, if some of the existing and potential owners of other small cars switch to the new car, the increase in overall fuel demand and emissions will be lower. Again, it is not that millions of Tata small cars will be rolled out every year. Tata Motors' current capacity is 250,000 units per year, which is less than a quarter of the total cars produced in the country. In the long run, yes, the number of Tata small cars on our roads could be in millions. But, the number of other small car models sold over a period of as many years will also run into millions. Then, why single out the Tata car for criticism? The Tata small car will definitely increase the pace of passenger car sales. But, the incremental addition to total car sales may not be as high as it is being made out to be. On balance, potential emissions are not the "nightmare" critics want us to believe. The traffic chaos bogey More cars on roads definitely mean more congestion. But, will the Tata small car make it that worse as some fear? It is estimated that there are over 12 million vehicles in India - four wheelers and above. Around a million are being added every year, and the additions will only increase. If Tata Motors sells as much as it can produce, we will see 250,000 cars being added every year. By the time the company reaches full capacity, at the earliest in 2009-10, total number of vehicles will be around 15 million. In percentage terms, the Tata small cars will constitute less than 2 per cent of total vehicles on our roads. Even if the company doubles its capacity, it will still be less than 4 per cent. Is that a big problem? Our roads are congested in urban areas, not so much in semi-urban and rural areas. It is likely that a substantial number of Tata small cars will be sold in areas where the road traffic is not that bad. So, should the village aam aadmi also be denied a cheap personal vehicle? Even if the Tata small cars create utter traffic chaos in our cities, it may be a blessing in disguise. The transport infrastructure in our cities is pathetic probably because our netas never have to suffer traffic blocks. The big shots, who take all the decisions, have police vehicles clearing the way for them. The lesser minions, who lobby to influence the decisions, are usually chauffeured around and hence commuting is less tedious for them. So, to take a highly charitable view on our netas, it is possible that they are really not aware of the problems. When we protest loudly, they will agree to 'look into the matter', without really grasping the enormity of the problem and hence cannot be blamed for forgetting the promise. But, they will grasp the problem better and will be forced to 'look into it' if their cars cannot move. For them to roll down their windows and see reality, the traffic should become so bad that even police vehicles cannot clear the way. Then they will do something about our roads or let the private sector do it. I am all for mass transport systems - metro rail systems, high capacity buses on dedicated lanes and so on - for our cities. Many commuters would prefer public transport to driving their own cars, provided they are safe, comfortable and reliable. There is no doubt that, in the not too distant future, a majority of city dwellers will switch to public transport from cars. Because it will be impossible to take out the cars daily and our public transport systems would have improved beyond recognition by then. But, that will be a gradual transition. All we can do is to exert pressure to speed up the process, and that is what all the activists railing against the Tata small car should be doing. Until we have better public transport, commuters would prefer personal transport - if they can afford it - and there will be huge demand for personal vehicles. You cannot fault a business for trying to meet market demand, in a supposedly liberalised economy. If the Tatas had not done it, somebody else would have. Bajaj already has a prototype ready! All those who are arguing against the Tata small car are barking up the wrong tree! -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Mon Jan 14 22:33:46 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:33:46 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Hans Monderman messages Message-ID: <00f001c856b2$19014460$4b03cd20$@britton@ecoplan.org> Dear Terence, Ben and others. In fact what we call shared space is probably the most common arrangement taking in the world as a whole. Highly regulated traffic systems with strong separation of modes and types of traffic is mostly found in developed western countries, and other countries where western consultants and engineers have left their mark. How well shared space works depends on many things, but one factor that strikes me as important is speed of vehicles, and the differences in speed of different vehicles. For example where there is a big mix of cyclists and slow-moving motor vehicles, it works well. Where motor vehicles predominate and there are few pedestrians it is more difficult to get drivers to go slowly, and then the system breaks down. Another aspect is attitudes and behaviour of the population concerned. Hans Monderman recognised the difference in behaviour of a local village resident in a vehicle, and a driver from elsewhere (perhaps even from another country) passing through and being unaware of local driving norms. In busy streets in China one can spot the western foreigners because they try to dodge the vehicles when crossing the road, whereas the norm is to walk slowly but deliberately across the road, and let the drivers dodge you. I have many other thoughts on this, but they will have to await my next book (well, article anyway). Terence, I would like to hear more about Vietnam when we next meet. Best regards to all Tim Pharoah On 14/1/08 09:44, "Terence Bendixson" wrote: Dear Ben Thanks for your report. I have been in Vietnam and had missed the news. Oddly enough I was thinking about Monderman and you when there. As I expect you know, traffic in places like Hanoi flows almost without benefit of traffic engineering and control - and virtually never gets blocked. It is a tribute to human interaction, decentralisation and the smallness of most of the vehicles. It is not pretty but it works. Have you witnessed it? Regards Terence Bendixson Secretary ITC From edelman at greenidea.eu Tue Jan 15 01:36:27 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:36:27 +0100 Subject: [sustran] "PT: Self-Harming Adverts" presents coolest thing ever from Flanders... plus London, plus Chicago... Message-ID: <478B8F8B.9010207@greenidea.eu> Happy whatever you are celebrating!, My series on Self-Harming Adverts in Public Transport... ... NOW has the coolest thing ever from Flanders: PLUS this from London -- A blast from the past with what you might call a modern flavour: AND finally, a new ad from Lincoln, which gives a bad Rap on public transport (in Chicago) and is clearly in a delirium about a lot of related things: Be good, T Extra special bonus!!!: -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net From anupam9gupta at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 14:15:48 2008 From: anupam9gupta at gmail.com (Anupam Gupta) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:45:48 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime (Hassaan Ghazali) In-Reply-To: <20080115030127.1341B2C44D@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> References: <20080115030127.1341B2C44D@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> Message-ID: <000e01c85735$b3aef510$1b0cdf30$@com> Dear Mr. Hassaan - Sir, I'm not sure that the choice is as binary as shunning or taking up the Tata technology. There are many more issues pertaining to mobility on a discussion pertaining to the Nano. While one can praise what can, arguably, be termed as a technological achievement, one has to also be aware of it's impact on mobility in a country that has all the growth, but none of the development. As Ms. Gina has pointed out, the US - the country where the Model T was launched and celebrated - isn't exactly the epitome of responsibility on mobility or environmental matters. The celebrations come first, the impact comes years later. I thought we should learn from history. I fully agree with Prof. Krishnayya's excellent riposte to Mr. Sharma's article. Best regards Anupam From sutp at sutp.org Tue Jan 15 14:28:16 2008 From: sutp at sutp.org (SUTP Team) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:28:16 +0700 Subject: [sustran] 2008 Sustainable Urban Transport Award announced in Washington DC Message-ID: <478C4470.8020508@sutp.org> *LONDON, PARIS EDGE OUT GUATEMALA CITY, GUATEMALA; EUGENE, OREGON; AND PEREIRA, COLOMBIA FOR 2008 SUSTAINABLE TRANSPORT AWARD* /Finalists to be honored tonight in Washington, DC for cutting traffic and air pollution, fighting climate change to create high-quality public spaces/ (Washington, DC ? January 14, 2008) London and Paris edged out Guatemala City, Guatemala; Eugene, Oregon; and Pereira, Colombia to win the 2008 Sustainable Transport Award. These cities were nominated for the 4th annual international honor for enhancing the sustainability and livability of their community or region by adopting innovative transportation strategies that lessen the impact of climate change by reducing transportation greenhouse and air pollution emissions. "All of these cities took politically risky decisions that made a huge contribution to reducing greenhouse gas emissions and making their cities more livable," said selection committee member Dr. Walter Hook, executive director of the Institute for Transportation and Development Policy. ?With their success, dozens of mayors around the world are now finding the courage to take similar steps. We are proud to honor these cities tonight.? *London* is the largest city to adopt congestion pricing and its success has inspired cities in the United States, such as *New York City* and *San Francisco*, to consider implementing it. Cities in developing countries such as Shenzen, P.R. China also see congestion pricing as a meaningful instrument to address the problems associated with the rapid growth in vehicles. In 2007, London expanded on the success of its groundbreaking 2003 congestion pricing plan with a doubling of the congestion zone, increased fees for motor vehicles, and new city-wide emission-based tolls that are spurring more rapid adoption of cleaner, fuel efficient vehicles. ?London is providing the political cover for major cities like New York to adopt congestion pricing because --once it's implemented -- it?s popular with most voters, even with those who initially oppose it,? said selection committee member Michael Replogle, transportation director for Environmental Defense and a former consultant for the U.S. Federal Highway Administration. ?Congestion pricing is a superior gridlock and pollution solution because it has a financial incentive that discourages driving, encourages mass transit and funds it.? Prior to the charge, London drivers spent 50 percent of their time in traffic jams, costing the city between ?2?4 million ($4?8 million) every week. Now, congestion has dropped 21 percent in 2007. About 70,000 fewer vehicles enter the extended congestion pricing zone on a daily basis, reducing global warming carbon dioxide emissions by 16 percent. Each year more than ?123 million ($243 million) are raised for public transport improvements. Bus ridership has increased 45 percent as people are switching to bus transportation in London because their travel time has decreased due to congestion pricing. Bike use has increased by 43 percent. Emission-based toll incentives further boost environmental benefits. *Paris* revolutionized bike sharing programs of the past to create an individualized mass transit system called V?lib (?Freedom Bikes?). People pay a low fee to use the bikes from one of the many bike parking stations located in the city and they can return the bikes to any station they wish. By the end of 2007, V?lib had more than 1,200 stations and 15,000 bikes in the system. ?Freedom bikes? in Paris fill the streets, proving more popular than anticipated. As of November 2007, more than 11 million trips have been made on these bikes. V?lib is just one component of Paris? new mobility plan that uses transportation innovation to revitalize community life in public spaces. Paris is prioritizing pedestrians by renovating public squares and plazas, widening sidewalks, and adding new landscaping and raised crosswalks. Paris has built more than 314 kilometers (195 miles) of bike lanes, and bicycling has increased 48 percent during the past five years. Three corridors of the new bus rapid transit system also opened in 2007. These improvements led to a decrease in private vehicle traffic by 20 percent and a nine percent reduction in carbon dioxide emissions. ?Paris is a great example of how a city can transform by implementing a package of measures, like V?lib or the Quartiers Verts, that all aim to improve transport in the city and quality of life for its citizens,? said selection committee member Manfred Breithaupt from GTZ, the German Technical Cooperation. ?Paris and London have demonstrated that effective leadership can result in real change,? said selection committee member Cornie Huizenga, executive director of the Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities (CAI-Asia) Center. ?Asian city authorities should carefully look at the experience of Paris and London and decide what can be replicated in their cities. We hope that this will help to bring back the award to Asia in the near future." *Guatemala City, Guatemala* won an honorable mention for implementing TransMetro, the first bus rapid transit system in Central America. The first 11 kilometers of dedicated median busways with on-level boarding have reduced travel times by 20 percent, as well as significantly reducing air pollution and traffic accidents. The first corridor carries 145,000 passengers a day and by the end of the year more than 50 million people will have taken the new service. TransMetro is part of a grander vision of Mayor Arz? to create ?A City for Living.? This plan focuses on sustainable development for the fastest growing city in the region, as well as bringing social cohesion to Guatemala City after suffering 30 years of civil war. *Eugene, Oregon* won an honorable mention for opening one of the first full bus rapid transit systems in the United States using diesel-electric hybrid articulated buses. The Green Line of the Emerald Express Rapid Transit system (EmX) has dedicated busways and on-level boarding, as well as having a parallel bicycle lane along the corridor. The buses were also designed so people can bring their bikes onto the buses with them. Since opening, bus ridership has doubled on the corridor, surpassing projections. More corridors are being planned because EmX has shown that it is politically possible to take traffic lanes in the United States from private cars for a high-quality, lower-cost rapid transit system. *Pereira, Colombia* garnered an honorable mention by continuing to be a leading city in the country for coordinating land use development and transport planning. Megabus, its bus rapid transit system and one of the key elements to this development strategy, was appropriately designed according to the local conditions and financial capacity, and carries 155,000 passengers per day. In the narrow streets of downtown Pereira, Megabus makes a clear statement of the importance of giving priority to bus users, rather than the users of private vehicles. It is also well coordinated with the improvement of pedestrian facilities in downtown, the redevelopment of the old marketplace area into large plazas, and redevelopment of the city center. The award presentation for the two winning and three honorable mention cities will take place tonight, 6pm-7:30pm, at the Washington Hilton in Washington, DC as part of the international Transportation Research Board Annual Conference, which is expected to attract 10,000 transportation professionals from around the world. The award selection committee includes the most respected experts and organizations working internationally on sustainable transportation. It includes representatives from the Institute for Transportation and Development Policy, Environmental Defense, the Transportation Research Board Committee on Transportation in Developing Countries, the Clean Air Initiatives for Asia, Latin America, and Africa, GTZ (Deutsche Gesellschaft f?r Technische Zusammenarbeit), and the United Nations? Centre for Regional Development (UNCRD). For more information, photos, and videos about the award and its current and past winners, visit http://www.itdp.org/index.php/news_events/event_detail/sustainable_transport_award/. _Contacts_: Sean Crowley, Environmental Defense, +1-202-550-6524, scrowley@ed.org This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it Aimee Gauthier, Institute for Transportation and Development Policy, +1-212-629-8001, agauthier@itdp.org This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it Cornie Huizenga, Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities (CAI-Asia) Center, cornie.huizenga@cai-asia.org This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it Carlosfelipe Pardo, German Technical Cooperation, carlos.pardo@sutp.org This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it From edelman at greenidea.eu Wed Jan 16 07:50:35 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 23:50:35 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: Hans Monderman messages In-Reply-To: <00f001c856b2$19014460$4b03cd20$@britton@ecoplan.org> References: <00f001c856b2$19014460$4b03cd20$@britton@ecoplan.org> Message-ID: <478D38BB.6000302@greenidea.eu> Hi, "Shared Space" or shared space in cities and towns is a wonderful thing, a piece of the most rich, moist and totally delicious cake - if you will - but one which has a piece of glass inside of it. The glass is the private car (for now, and, eventually - I hope - all cars). I especially appreciate that Hans Monderman recognised that Shared Space was not a panacea, and - to put my opinion in - it is not just not a cure-all for road safety in cities, but for sustainability in general. We need to remove the glass from the cake.... but, after doing so, we may find that we don't need the cake, or the "Cake". So I hope Shared Space will be used to help people find this glass, to show - perhaps - that it is not the traffic rules and behaviour which are the problem, but the automobile itself. I realise that this was/is not the goal of Shared Space, but that is what makes it work for me (and I think many others, who, for solid, rational and scientific reasons object to cars no matter how much they... share.) - T .britton wrote: > Dear Terence, Ben and others. > > In fact what we call shared space is probably the most common arrangement > taking in the world as a whole. Highly regulated traffic systems with strong > separation of modes and types of traffic is mostly found in developed > western countries, and other countries where western consultants and > engineers have left their mark. > > How well shared space works depends on many things, but one factor that > strikes me as important is speed of vehicles, and the differences in speed > of different vehicles. For example where there is a big mix of cyclists and > slow-moving motor vehicles, it works well. Where motor vehicles predominate > and there are few pedestrians it is more difficult to get drivers to go > slowly, and then the system breaks down. > > Another aspect is attitudes and behaviour of the population concerned. Hans > Monderman recognised the difference in behaviour of a local village resident > in a vehicle, and a driver from elsewhere (perhaps even from another > country) passing through and being unaware of local driving norms. In busy > streets in China one can spot the western foreigners because they try to > dodge the vehicles when crossing the road, whereas the norm is to walk > slowly but deliberately across the road, and let the drivers dodge you. > > I have many other thoughts on this, but they will have to await my next book > (well, article anyway). > > Terence, I would like to hear more about Vietnam when we next meet. > > Best regards to all > > Tim Pharoah > > > On 14/1/08 09:44, "Terence Bendixson" wrote: > > Dear Ben > > Thanks for your report. I have been in Vietnam and had missed the news. > Oddly enough I was thinking about Monderman and you when there. As I expect > you know, traffic in places like Hanoi flows almost without benefit of > traffic engineering and control - and virtually never gets blocked. It is a > tribute to human interaction, decentralisation and the smallness of most of > the vehicles. It is not pretty but it works. Have you witnessed it? > > Regards > > Terence Bendixson > Secretary > ITC > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net From edelman at greenidea.eu Thu Jan 17 01:40:24 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:40:24 +0100 Subject: [sustran] 'World's Cheapest Car Environmentally Costly' Message-ID: <478E3378.7030006@greenidea.eu> Hi everyone, There is some stuff here I have not seen in other reports... note which political party is giving support... and some of the analysis is quite clever.... - T *** INDIA: 'World's Cheapest Car Environmentally Costly' By Praful Bidwai *NEW DELHI, Jan 16 (IPS) - Nothing has generated as much hyperbole in the global automobile industry in recent years as the unveiling, last week, of an ultra-cheap bare-bones car made by the Tatas, India?s steel and engineering giant. * Ppriced at 2,500 US dollars, the 'Nano' is arguably the world?s cheapest four-wheeled passenger vehicle. However, the ?dream car? may turn out to be an ecological nightmare and a not-so-safe driving machine, without airbags to protect riders or anti-lock braking systems. It could prove a menace to India?s already congested roads, and a source of enormous pollution and of health damage, besides becoming a drain on public resources. Above all, it will set back the all-important fight against global warming, in which the Indian government is at best a reluctant partner who refuses to accept any time-bound commitment to reduce his greenhouse emissions, now growing three times faster than the world average. According to management experts, the car has created a new paradigm of "frugal engineering" and will trigger breathtaking innovations in manufacturing technology in the global automobile industry based on severe cost-cutting. Yet, despite stripping the Nano down to its most rudimentary dimensions to produce what a United States media presenter termed as "a golf cart crossed with a jelly bean", Tata Motors is unlikely to be able to fulfil its 2,500 price promise for long. "In fact, the figure is an introductory offer excluding taxes and local duties; on the road, the car will actually cost between 3,310 ? 3,819 dollars,?? says Dinesh Mohan, a transportation expert and professor of biomedical engineering at the Indian Institute of Technology, Delhi. "And that?s the initial cost of the bare-bones model. Other versions, including an air-conditioned model, will cost more." Tata Motors chairman Ratan Tata has already hinted that the introductory price may not last long. "We may not be able to hold the price emotionally. We have to understand that steel and tyre prices ? are rising," he said, while launching the car last week. He recalled that in 1983, the Maruti 800 car made in India by Suzuki too was offered at 1,145 dollars, but the price almost doubled within a year. The Nano?s ultra-low price tag covers major subsidies offered by the Marxist government of West Bengal, where the car will be manufactured. According to former state finance minister Ashok Mitra, the subsidies (210 million dollars) work out to one-fourth of the car project?s initial capital cost. The Left Front state government has leased 997 acres of land to the Tatas virtually free, with no down-payment. It?s also advancing them a 50 million dollar loan at one percent interest and further granting an exemption from the value-added tax for 10 years, amounting to 125 million dollars. If the indirect subsidies given to private automobiles through the free use of roads and parking space are added, cars like the Nano would no longer be ultra-cheap to the point of being ironic. Hype about "the world?s cheapest car" apart, the Nano is deeply flawed because of inadequate safety features and emission standards, say environmentalists and experts. "This car is likely to have low longevity and high maintenance costs,'' commented Mohan. ''It already fails the current Western emission and safety standards, and will soon fail Indian standards too as India adopts the ?Euro-IV? emission norms applicable in many European Union countries." The ruthless way the Tatas have pared down the Nano?s costs has meant cutting many corners to stay focused on frugality and minimalism. For instance, the Nano's designers reportedly used a hollow shaft instead of a solid beam to connect the steering-wheel to the axle, and plastics and adhesives in place of many studs and bolts. The car?s low-performance wheel bearings may wear out rapidly beyond 70 kmph. It has only one windshield wiper instead of two. It uses belt-driven continuous variable transmission, which slows down acceleration. To save merely ten dollars the suspension was redesigned to eliminate devices called actuators, which adjust the angle of the car?s lights to the way it?s loaded. "Such measures are likely to have an impact on the car?s safety, sturdiness and durability/longevity," adds Mohan. "Some of it will only become apparent once the car has been on the road for a few years. It?s premature today to certify that the Nano is safe and reliable." Tata?s claim that the Nano has passed the crash test and meets the national emission standards called Bharat-II and -III has not been verified by an independent and competent agency. Besides, Tata himself admits that the Nano, as of now, falls short of the Euro-IV standards. "India should have adopted these norms long ago, but delayed doing so under the automobile lobby?s pressure", says Anumita Roychowdhury of the Centre for Science and Environment (CSE) an internationally-known green lobby in New Delhi. Euro-IV norms will come into force in India?s major cities in April 2010 and are considerably stricter than Bharat-II or III, which are 10 to 5 years behind Europe. For instance, under Euro-IV, sulphur emissions must be reduced 35-fold in relation to Bharat-II. "Similarly, key safety standards are long overdue in India which has unacceptably high road accident and casualty rates,'' adds Roychowdhury. "They are on their way. These include full-body crash tests -- which determine how cars will crumple in collisions, minimising the impact on passengers -- airbags and anti-lock braking systems. Implementing them will raise the Nano?s claimed costs by 40 to 50 percent." "It?s not good enough to have safety systems; cars must be frequently and rigorously inspected after they have experienced actual roads conditions, which often affect the systems that control emissions. This rarely happens in India,?? Mohan said. Michael Walsh, a pollution consultant and former U.S. Environmental Protection Agency regulator, has been quoted as saying that a car as cheap as the Nano is likely to lack the complex technology needed to maintain its initial level of emissions, and it could soon produce four to five times its initial pollution levels. "It strikes me as impossible that such a vehicle will be a very clean vehicle" over its lifetime, he told The New York Times. The Tata car will set a trend under which industry will take advantage of India?s existing poor emission standards and rush to produce new vehicles before better standards are in place. Scooter manufacturer Bajaj Auto has already announced that it will make a 3,000 dollar car in collaboration with Renault. Volkswagen, Nissan and General Motors are also considering plans to make stripped-down cars priced between the Nano and the Maruti 800. The addition of these vehicles will further slow down traffic in Indian cities--whose speed has considerably decreased, and in some case halved in recent years. It will greatly add to pollution, which has reached critical levels in 57 percent of Indian cities and is generating a health havoc, with disorders ranging from respiratory illnesses and hypertension to obesity. India and China are emerging as leaders in low-cost car manufacture and consumption. In India, forecasts a consultancy firm, an additional 30 million households will be ready to buy a small car by 2010 --20 times the present market size. By 2013, India?s car market will be annually growing at 14.5 percent, and China?s at just over eight percent. By 2020, some forecasts say, more than 150 million Indians and 140 million Chinese will have cars. If this really happens, it will become nearly impossible to achieve major reductions in global greenhouse gas emissions. China and India account for 70 percent of the global increase in energy demand over the past two years. If the "Nano trend" continues, the small window of opportunity to control spiralling energy use and greenhouse emissions will slam shut. If India is serious about reversing climate change, it must rethink its automobile policy. (END/2008) -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net From edelman at greenidea.eu Thu Jan 17 01:41:44 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:41:44 +0100 Subject: [sustran] 'World's Cheapest Car Environmentally Costly' ADDENDUM Message-ID: <478E33C8.1090700@greenidea.eu> Hi, sorry, here is the url: -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net From edelman at greenidea.eu Thu Jan 17 08:05:50 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 00:05:50 +0100 Subject: [sustran] [Fwd: [carfree_network] Registration is open for Towards Carfree Cities conference] Message-ID: <478E8DCE.6020907@greenidea.eu> Dear transportation wonks and livability lovers, Registration has begun for Towards Carfree Cities VIII. More details about the conference will be coming in the next few days. In the meantime, here is the registration web site: http://www.carfreeportland.org/register/ If you have submitted a proposal, please do not register yet -- we will contact you by February 18th with a 25% registration discount code which should give you time to register with the early fee. Shift is a member of the World Carfree Network -- Shifters can check yes on the membership and receive discounted admission. Individuals and organizations can become members -- please consider joining. Membership benefits include access to some very good informational resources for nonprofits and activists, networking with other members, and the opportunity to apply to host the Towards Carfree Cities conference in future years. More information can be found at worldcarfree.net/join Only volunteers who will be working with us for the duration of the conference will receive free admission. For information on volunteer opportunities, contact volunteer@carfreeportland.org If you are a student or need a reduced rate please contact portland@worldcarfree.net with a brief explanation of why you would like to receive the scholarship rate. If you will be travelling from elsewhere and plan to fundraise to help pay for your trip, feel free to contact us for advice. Thank you -- our team is looking forward to hosting you and providing an exciting program. Elly Blue Conference Coordinator Towards Carfree Cities VIII [carfree_network] list guidelines and unsubscribe information are found at http://www.worldcarfree.net/listservs/. Send messages for the entire list to carfree_network@lists.riseup.net. Send replies to individuals off-list. -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net From mike.co at cai-asia.org Wed Jan 16 16:54:12 2008 From: mike.co at cai-asia.org (Michael Co) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:54:12 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Fwd: REMINDER: BAQ 2008 CALL FOR ABSTRACTS Message-ID: <478DB824.5060804@cai-asia.org> BAQ 2008 CALL FOR ABSTRACTS The theme for the Better Air Quality 2008 (BAQ 2008) workshop is: ?Air Quality and Climate Change: Scaling up Win-Win Solutions for Asia.? It is directly related to the need to intensify efforts on urban air quality management to minimize present and future health and environmental damages and the recommendation of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) recommendation to actively link air quality management with climate change mitigation. BAQ 2008 also intends to contribute to the successful implementation of the Bali road map which was agreed upon in December 2007 in Bali, Indonesia . BAQ 2008 especially intends to contribute towards ?national appropriate mitigation actions by developing country Parties in the context of sustainable development, supported and enabled by technology, financing and capacity building, in a measurable, reportable and verifiable manner? (Bali Action Plan ? 1, b, ii.) A more scientific term of win-win solutions for urban air quality improvement and climate change mitigation is ?co-benefits?. Co-benefits are defined as follows: * Development benefits resulting from climate change mitigation measures, such as reduced air pollution and associated health benefits, and improved energy security through reduced energy costs and dependency on oil imports and increased access to energy for the poor; * Climate change benefits, most importantly reductions in greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions, resulting from measures to address development issues such as air pollution. The BAQ 2008 organizing committee encourages you to submit abstracts on co-benefits of air quality management and climate change mitigation. Abstracts can cover academic, technical- or policy-related studies on co-benefits or describe the impacts of specific programs or projects on co-benefits. Abstracts can relate to the city, national or regional levels. An Asian focus is required; those with a focus on Europe, USA, or others parts of the world should clearly state the relevance of the proposed paper for air quality management in Asia, and if applicable, its impact on reducing greenhouse gases. Priority will be given to abstracts which focus on new research and innovative policies and solutions. Special consideration will be given to abstracts which describe or assess the potential for scaling up technical and policy solutions. Please submit your abstracts using the correct format (maximum of 300 words) to bert.fabian@cai-asia.org and copy cornie.huizenga@cai-asia.org. A sample abstract in the correct format is attached (you may also download this at http://www.baq2008.org). Deadline for submission is 30 March 2008. Abstracts on the following topics will be a priority: 1. Co-benefits and Air Quality Management * Scientific understanding of linkage between air pollutant emissions and GHG emissions at the local, national and regional scale * Monitoring and modeling * Inventories and source apportionment * Impacts on health and environment * Policies and legislation * Financing and cost-benefit analysis * Institutional arrangements to promote a co-benefits approach * Technology transfer 2. Co-benefits and Transport * Inventories, emission factors and measuring methodology * Engine technology * Fuels and fuel quality standards * Sustainable transport planning and implementation * Land use planning * Policy instruments * Financing, including CDM or alternative approaches such as sectoral or policy based CDM 3. Co-benefits and Industry and Power Generation * Inventories, emission factors and measuring methodology * Combustion and processing technology * Energy efficiency * Fuels and renewable energy * Policy instruments * Financing, including CDM or alternative approaches such as sectoral or policy based CDM 4. Co-benefits and Indoor Air Pollution * Linkage between indoor-outdoor air * Relationship in-door air quality and climate change * Inventories, emission factors and measuring methodology * Impacts * Technology developments From info at autofrei-wohnen.de Fri Jan 18 01:00:09 2008 From: info at autofrei-wohnen.de (Markus Heller) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:00:09 +0100 Subject: [sustran] "External costs" in transport: EU Commission prepares the ground for efficient and fair pricing of transport services Message-ID: <02c601c85926$c3e6c7d0$0100a8c0@Markus> http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/08/54&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en "External costs" in transport: Commission prepares the ground for efficient and fair pricing of transport services The European Commission has released a comprehensive compilation of existing studies on external costs in the transport sector. This handbook, jointly prepared by several transport research institutes, summarises the state of the art as regards the valuation of external costs. The Commission intends to make use of the handbook as one element which prepares the communication on the internalisation of external costs for all modes of transport that is due in June 2008 and a proposal to revise the directive on the charging of heavy goods vehicles. The handbook assembles best practice methods to estimate and monetize the external costs generated by transport activities. It concentrates on air pollution, noise, climate change, congestion and accidents in road transport which constitutes the overwhelming share of transport external costs, but it also considers other external costs and other modes of transport. It brings together the key parameters to apply these methods as well as examples of unit values per travelled distance according to typical traffic situations, as for instance air pollution cost of a lorry in an urban area. The handbook will help policy makers and other interested parties value external costs when developing policy measures for internalisation. It shows that external costs depend strongly on parameters like vehicle characteristics (EURO standards), location (urban or interurban) and the period of time (peak, off-peak and night time). The handbook was compiled by a consortium of research institutes from different countries and its content commits solely their authors. This release is part of the process launched by the Commission to prepare a communication on a strategy for the stepwise integration of the external costs into the price to be paid for transport services, as requested under the directive on the charging for heavy goods vehicles. As part of this process, technical workshops were held with industry representatives, environmental organisations and scientific experts. The preliminary findings of this handbook were subject to a peer review by scientific experts from member States. In parallel, a broad public consultation was organised by the Commission services on possible ways to internalise these external costs. The results of this public consultation, which ended in December 2007, will be presented and discussed at a High Level stakeholders' conference on 31.1.2008 with the participation of Commission Vice-President Jacques Barrot. Both the handbook and the consultation paper are available at: http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road/policy/index_en.htm http://ec.europa.eu/transport/white_paper/consultations/index_en.htm > http://ec.europa.eu/transport/costs/handbook/index_en.htm download (4494 Kb) Internalisation Measures and Policies for All external Cost of Transport (IMPACT) http://ec.europa.eu/transport/costs/handbook/doc/2008_01_15_handbook_external_cost_en.pdf * Markus www.autofrei-wohnen.de/homeEngl.html From ktsourl at mailbox.gr Sat Jan 19 21:33:45 2008 From: ktsourl at mailbox.gr (K. Tsourlakis) Date: 19 Jan 2008 14:33:45 +0200 Subject: [sustran] sustran] 2008 Sustainable Urban Transport Award announced in Washington DC Message-ID: <20080119123345.26247.qmail@mailbox.gr> Once again the usual hype about the congestion charge (though emission-based tolls make somehow more sense, but suffer the same shortcomings as the carbon emission rights trading system) - for a more elaborate discussion http://www.geocities.com/pezosgr/LCC.htm However, although I don't have anything particular against the London mayor (actually I have in mind some much worse than him), I wonder how such a "sustainability" policy is compatible with the persecution of bikers I saw recently in http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2338091070755237169 It seems London has created a special squadron to pursue bikers >Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:28:16 +0700 >From: SUTP Team >Subject: [sustran] 2008 Sustainable Urban Transport Award announced in > Washington DC >To: Asia and the Pacific sustainable transport > >Message-ID: <478C4470.8020508@sutp.org> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > >*LONDON, PARIS EDGE OUT GUATEMALA CITY, GUATEMALA; EUGENE, OREGON; AND >PEREIRA, COLOMBIA FOR 2008 SUSTAINABLE TRANSPORT AWARD* > >/Finalists to be honored tonight in Washington, DC for cutting traffic >and air pollution, fighting climate change to create high-quality public >spaces/ > >(Washington, DC ? January 14, 2008) London and Paris edged out Guatemala >City, Guatemala; Eugene, Oregon; and Pereira, Colombia to win the 2008 >Sustainable Transport Award. These cities were nominated for the 4th >annual international honor for enhancing the sustainability and >livability of their community or region by adopting innovative >transportation strategies that lessen the impact of climate change by >reducing transportation greenhouse and air pollution emissions. > >"All of these cities took politically risky decisions that made a huge >contribution to reducing greenhouse gas emissions and making their >cities more livable," said selection committee member Dr. Walter Hook, >executive director of the Institute for Transportation and Development >Policy. ?With their success, dozens of mayors around the world are now >finding the courage to take similar steps. We are proud to honor these >cities tonight.? > >*London* is the largest city to adopt congestion pricing and its success >has inspired cities in the United States, such as *New York City* and >*San Francisco*, to consider implementing it. Cities in developing >countries such as Shenzen, P.R. China also see congestion pricing as a >meaningful instrument to address the problems associated with the rapid >growth in vehicles. In 2007, London expanded on the success of its >groundbreaking 2003 congestion pricing plan with a doubling of the >congestion zone, increased fees for motor vehicles, and new city-wide >emission-based tolls that are spurring more rapid adoption of cleaner, >fuel efficient vehicles. > >?London is providing the political cover for major cities like New York >to adopt congestion pricing because --once it's implemented -- it?s >popular with most voters, even with those who initially oppose it,? said >selection committee member Michael Replogle, transportation director for >Environmental Defense and a former consultant for the U.S. Federal >Highway Administration. ?Congestion pricing is a superior gridlock and >pollution solution because it has a financial incentive that discourages >driving, encourages mass transit and funds it.? > >Prior to the charge, London drivers spent 50 percent of their time in >traffic jams, costing the city between > >?2?4 million ($4?8 million) every week. Now, congestion has dropped 21 >percent in 2007. About 70,000 fewer vehicles enter the extended >congestion pricing zone on a daily basis, reducing global warming carbon >dioxide emissions by 16 percent. Each year more than ?123 million ($243 >million) are raised for public transport improvements. Bus ridership has >increased 45 percent as people are switching to bus transportation in >London because their travel time has decreased due to congestion >pricing. Bike use has increased by 43 percent. Emission-based toll >incentives further boost environmental benefits. > >*Paris* revolutionized bike sharing programs of the past to create an >individualized mass transit system called V?lib (?Freedom Bikes?). >People pay a low fee to use the bikes from one of the many bike parking >stations located in the city and they can return the bikes to any >station they wish. By the end of 2007, V?lib had more than 1,200 >stations and 15,000 bikes in the system. ?Freedom bikes? in Paris fill >the streets, proving more popular than anticipated. As of November >2007, more than 11 million trips have been made on these bikes. > >V?lib is just one component of Paris? new mobility plan that uses >transportation innovation to revitalize community life in public >spaces. Paris is prioritizing pedestrians by renovating public squares >and plazas, widening sidewalks, and adding new landscaping and raised >crosswalks. Paris has built more than 314 kilometers (195 miles) of >bike lanes, and bicycling has increased 48 percent during the past five >years. Three corridors of the new bus rapid transit system also opened >in 2007. These improvements led to a decrease in private vehicle >traffic by 20 percent and a nine percent reduction in carbon dioxide >emissions. > >?Paris is a great example of how a city can transform by implementing a >package of measures, like V?lib or the Quartiers Verts, that all aim to >improve transport in the city and quality of life for its citizens,? >said selection committee member Manfred Breithaupt from GTZ, the German >Technical Cooperation. > >?Paris and London have demonstrated that effective leadership can result >in real change,? said selection committee member Cornie Huizenga, >executive director of the Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities >(CAI-Asia) Center. ?Asian city authorities should carefully look at the >experience of Paris and London and decide what can be replicated in >their cities. We hope that this will help to bring back the award to >Asia in the near future." > >*Guatemala City, Guatemala* won an honorable mention for implementing >TransMetro, the first bus rapid transit system in Central America. The >first 11 kilometers of dedicated median busways with on-level boarding >have reduced travel times by 20 percent, as well as significantly >reducing air pollution and traffic accidents. The first corridor >carries 145,000 passengers a day and by the end of the year more than 50 >million people will have taken the new service. TransMetro is part of a >grander vision of Mayor Arz? to create ?A City for Living.? This plan >focuses on sustainable development for the fastest growing city in the >region, as well as bringing social cohesion to Guatemala City after >suffering 30 years of civil war. > >*Eugene, Oregon* won an honorable mention for opening one of the first >full bus rapid transit systems in the United States using >diesel-electric hybrid articulated buses. The Green Line of the Emerald >Express Rapid Transit system (EmX) has dedicated busways and on-level >boarding, as well as having a parallel bicycle lane along the corridor. >The buses were also designed so people can bring their bikes onto the >buses with them. Since opening, bus ridership has doubled on the >corridor, surpassing projections. More corridors are being planned >because EmX has shown that it is politically possible to take traffic >lanes in the United States from private cars for a high-quality, >lower-cost rapid transit system. > >*Pereira, Colombia* garnered an honorable mention by continuing to be a >leading city in the country for coordinating land use development and >transport planning. Megabus, its bus rapid transit system and one of >the key elements to this development strategy, was appropriately >designed according to the local conditions and financial capacity, and >carries 155,000 passengers per day. In the narrow streets of downtown >Pereira, Megabus makes a clear statement of the importance of giving >priority to bus users, rather than the users of private vehicles. It is >also well coordinated with the improvement of pedestrian facilities in >downtown, the redevelopment of the old marketplace area into large >plazas, and redevelopment of the city center. > >The award presentation for the two winning and three honorable mention >cities will take place tonight, 6pm-7:30pm, at the Washington Hilton in >Washington, DC as part of the international Transportation Research >Board Annual Conference, which is expected to attract 10,000 >transportation professionals from around the world. > >The award selection committee includes the most respected experts and >organizations working internationally on sustainable transportation. It >includes representatives from the Institute for Transportation and >Development Policy, Environmental Defense, the Transportation Research >Board Committee on Transportation in Developing Countries, the Clean Air >Initiatives for Asia, Latin America, and Africa, GTZ (Deutsche >Gesellschaft f?r Technische Zusammenarbeit), and the United Nations? >Centre for Regional Development (UNCRD). For more information, photos, >and videos about the award and its current and past winners, visit >http://www.itdp.org/index.php/news_events/event_detail/sustainable_transport_award/. > > >_Contacts_: > >Sean Crowley, Environmental Defense, +1-202-550-6524, scrowley@ed.org >This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need >JavaScript enabled to view it > >Aimee Gauthier, Institute for Transportation and Development Policy, >+1-212-629-8001, agauthier@itdp.org This e-mail address is being >protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it > >Cornie Huizenga, Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities (CAI-Asia) >Center, cornie.huizenga@cai-asia.org This e-mail address is being >protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it > >Carlosfelipe Pardo, German Technical Cooperation, carlos.pardo@sutp.org >This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need >JavaScript enabled to view it > _____________________________________________________________________________________ http://www.mailbox.gr ÁðïêôÞóôå äùñåÜí ôï ìïíáäéêü óáò e-mail. http://www.superweb.gr ÏéêïíïìéêÜ êáé áîéüðéóôá ðáêÝôá web hosting ìå áóöáëÝò Åëëçíéêü controlpanel http://wwww.domains24.gr Ôï üíïìÜ óáò óôï internet áðü 9.95 Åõñþ. From au.ables at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 17:03:39 2008 From: au.ables at gmail.com (Au ABLES) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:03:39 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Sustainable Urban Mobility in Asia (SUMA) News Digest 18 January 2008 Message-ID: Sustainable Urban Mobility in Asia (SUMA) News Digest Vol. 5 Issue 1 18 January 2008 SUMA News Digest is a free weekly e-mail publication that features news, information, and events related to sustainable urban transportation in Asia. To contribute articles, news items, or event announcements for the next issue, send an email with the complete details and URL source to suma-news-owner@googlegroups.com with subject "FOR SUMA NEWS". mailto: suma-news-owner@googlegroups.com?subject=FOR_SUMA_NEWS . Past issues from Feb 2007 are found at http://groups.google.com/group/suma-news *** VISIT THE SUMA PAGES: http://www.cleanairnet.org/suma *** * * * * * HEADLINES EU: Cleaner trucks and buses: Tighter limits for nitrogen oxides and particulate matter (Euro VI) The Commission has proposed to reduce emissions from trucks and busses of nitrogen oxides by 80% and particulate matter by 66% compared to the Euro V stage. The new 'Euro VI' standard will significantly contribute to a further improvement of air quality in Europe. It will also be a step forward towards global harmonisation as it foresees limit values similar to those of the United States of America. http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72330.html INDIA: Delhi to curb diesel pollution The Delhi government has announced plans to cut diesel emissions in the national capital region in the wake of strong public concerns about rising numbers of diesel vehicles and diesel related pollutants in the city's ambient air. The plan recently approved by the Cabinet proposes an Environment Cess on diesel fuel. The revenue from this cess will be used to create a fund to finance Delhi's clean air action plan. Delhi Chief minister Sheila Dikshit has also written to the Union government to introduce Euro IV diesel fuels and standards in the National Capital Region by 2008-09. http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/channel.html INDIA: 'World's Cheapest Car Environmentally Costly' 16 January 2008 By Praful Bidwai, IPS (Credit:Tata Motors) Nothing has generated as much hyperbole in the global automobile industry in recent years as the unveiling, last week, of an ultra-cheap bare-bones car made by the Tatas, India's steel and engineering giant. http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72345.html CANADA: Canada seen setting new car efficiency standards 16 January 2008 4:26pm EST, Reuters Canadian Transport Minister Lawrence Cannon is planning an environmental announcement at an international auto show on Thursday, with one industry observer saying it was to announce new car efficiency standards. http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72346.html BERLIN, GERMANY: Germany begins ban on polluting cars in city centers http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/world/view_article.php?article_id=109905 02 January 2008 8:17 GMT+8 Agence France-Presse, inquirer.net Three German cities, including the capital Berlin, began implementing a new air pollution system on Tuesday that bans the dirtiest vehicles from their centers. http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72326.html BEIJING, PR CHINA: Beijing introduces cleaner fuel standards 01 January 2008 8:33pm EST Reuters China has introduced cleaner fuel standards in its capital Beijing, its latest effort to curb the city's notorious pollution ahead of the Olympic Games in August. Under the new standards, retailers will be required to supply gasoline and diesel equivalent to the Euro IV standard, a move that will cut emissions of acid rain-causing sulphur dioxide by 1,840 tonnes, the China Daily said on Wednesday, citing Beijing's Environmental Protection Bureau. http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72328.html For more news on China see also Ms. Li Shuang and Ms. XiaoJia Bao's CAI-Asia Project e-newsletter, http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-69329.html More air quality and sustainable mobility news at http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/propertyvalue-14783.html * * * * * INTERESTING FINDS *UPDATED* Emission Standards for New Light-Duty Vehicles (as of 8 January 2008) CAI-Asia Center has updated its chart on emission standards for light-duty vehicles. See which countries in Asia are going for Euro 2, 3, or 4. http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-58969.html BRT Planning Guide (2007) The BRT Planning Guide is co-edited by Lloyd Wright, Executive Director of Viva; and Walter Hook, Executive Director of the Institute for Transportation and Development Policy (ITDP). It was developed through support from the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, the Global Environment Facility/United Nations Environment Programme, and Deutsche Gesellschaft f?r Technische Zusammenarbeit (GTZ) GmbH. http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72340.html Two-wheeled Vehicle Ownership Trends and Issues in the Asian Region (2003) Yumiko NAGAI, Atsushi FUKUDA, Yuka OKADA, and Yoshihiko HASHINO analyze the characteristics of two-wheeled vehicle ownership and four-wheeled vehicle ownership in Asia, especially Thailand for both macroscopic and microscopic points of view. The results of their study show that ownership for both kinds of vehicles are highly dependent on income levels. It also shows that ownership of two-wheeled vehicles tends to be suppressed in the presence of public transport in the urban area. However, ownership of two-wheeled vehicles increase accordingly with the economic condition of the economic area even if alternative public transportation was introduced. The study is published in the Journal of the Eastern Asia Society for Transportation Studies, Vol.5, October, 2003. http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72350.html Transport and GHG Emissions (2007) Presentation by J. Short at the Transportation and Climate Policy. 11th Biennial Conference on Transportation, Energy and Environmental Policy, Pacific Grove, California, 21-24 August 2007 http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72329.html * * * * * MARK YOUR CALENDARS Better Air Quality (BAQ) Workshop 2008 12-14 November 2008 Bangkok, Thailand Call for Abstracts ongoing http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72312.html TRB 87th Annual Meeting 13-17 Jan 2008 Washington, DC http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72251.html Transforming Transportation 2008 13-18 January 2008 Washington, DC http://embarq.wri.org/en/ConferencesDetail.aspx?ID=55 JARI China Round Table 2008 19 January 2008 Shanghai, China http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72316.html The Art Center Summit 2008: Systems, Cities, and Sustainable Mobility February 5?7, 2008 Pasadena, California, USA http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72347.html Third Regional Environmentally Sustainable Transport (EST) Forum 17-19 Mar 2008 Singapore http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72269.html International Conference on Funding Transportation Infrastructure & la Dixi?me Journ?e Transport 19-20 Jun 2008 Paris, France http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72268.html 4th International Symposium on Travel Demand Management 16-18 Jul 2008 Vienna, Austria http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72218.html Towards Carfree Cities VIII 16-20 Jun 2008 Portland, Oregon, USA http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72243.html See more SUT events http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/propertyvalue-27089.html See CAI-Asia's events calendar http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/propertyvalue-13577.html * * * * THANKS * * * * Thank you Li Shuang, XiaoJia Bao, Keiko Hirota, and Bert Fabian for your inputs; and to Jaja Panopio and Mike Co for uploading the articles. - Aurora Fe Ables, Editor, SUMA News; Transport Specialist, CAI-Asia Center * * * ABOUT SUMA * * * The Sustainable Urban Mobility in Asia (SUMA) program of the Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities ( www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia), Asian Development Bank (www.adb.org), EMBARQ-the World Resources Institute Center for Sustainable Transport ( http://embarq.wri.org ), GTZ Sustainable Urban Transport Project ( www.sutp.org), Interface for Cycling Expertise (www.cycling.nl), Institute for Transportation and Development Policy ( www.itdp.org), and United Nations Center for Regional Development (www.uncrd.or.jp/est) is made possible through the generous support of the Swedish International Development Cooperation Agency ( www.sida.se). SUMA works with Asian countries and cities to strengthen then formulation and implementation of sustainable urban transportation policies, specifically in (i) improving urban air quality by adopting AQM planning in sustainable transport policies and promoting public transportation, (ii) improving road safety by encouraging non-motorized transport and public transport, and (iii) reducing transport's contribution to climate change by adopting a co-benefits approach with urban air quality management. -- best regards, Au Aurora Fe Ables, P.Chem Transport Specialist Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities Center t. +63(2)395-2843 and 45 f. +63(2)395-2846 m. +63(919)237-4338 au.ables[at]cai-asia.org au.ables[at]gmail.com skype au.ables www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia From edelman at greenidea.eu Mon Jan 21 12:44:27 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 04:44:27 +0100 Subject: [sustran] JCDecaux, Skoda Auto and Prague Transport attack sustainability in "PT: Self-Harming Adverts" + bonus Message-ID: <4794151B.7040009@greenidea.eu> VIEW this on my BLOG at: +++ Hello all! Prague is a marvellous place to be cynical! My series on Self-Harming Adverts in Public Transport... ... continues with coverage of an absolute bombardment for the New Year, in which Skoda Auto, (owned in full by VW, which is partly owned by Porsche ), aided by JCDecaux (the saviour of Paris) and Prague (Public) Transport, invite the latter's (future former) customers - among others - to BELIEVE that if you need to: * Carry a large animal, * Move house, or * Have unexpected visitors... You need a new Skoda combi. The intention of Porsche/VW/Skoda is clear, the confusion of Prague Transport in assaulting their city is not, and if anyone thinks that JCDecaux actually cares about sustainability, well, then they have their head buried in the sand at the Seine. This next totally-predictable miracle of the Automobile Advertising Industrial Gigaplex starts here: (Then browse forward...) *** Bonus: Of course, the bombardment is not just coming from Stuttgart*, Wolfsburg**, Mlada Boleslav*** and Neuilly-sur-Seine****, but also from Seoul***** and Vevey******: HQ index: * Porsche ** VW *** Skoda Auto **** JCDecaux ***** Kia ****** Nestle (; owner of Orion) Be good, T +++ VIEW this on my BLOG at: -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Mon Jan 21 20:31:53 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:31:53 +0100 Subject: [sustran] "At the Frontiers of Cycling: Policy Innovations in the Netherlands, Denmark, and Germany". - Journal of World Transport Policy & Practice In-Reply-To: <050901c85c03$031a4650$0201a8c0@John> References: <001601c85bfe$d441ec10$7cc5c430$@britton@ecoplan.org> <050901c85c03$031a4650$0201a8c0@John> Message-ID: <009701c85c21$3b981d40$b2c857c0$@britton@ecoplan.org> The latest number of the Journal of World Transport Policy & Practice is now available: Vol. 13, No. 1. ?At the Frontiers of Cycling: Policy Innovations in the Netherlands, Denmark, and Germany?. >From the Editor's Foreword: "This is a special-issue WTPP monograph on cycling ? particularly on international variations in cycling activity. The objective here is to make sure that the intelligence virus infects enough of our senior decision-takers, politicians and bureaucrats to produce a radical transformation of cycling so that in the majority of urban areas of the world we can deliver one third or more of all trips by bike. The same point applies to walking trips and to so-called ?active-travel? in general. It is clear to us that many of our much publicised transport policy objectives including climate change, health and social inclusion will not be achieved until we produce seriously high levels of active travel/". John Whitelegg. You can pick up this latest issue of our journal from the website of the World City Bike project at http://www.citybike.newmobility.org/, by clicking Homework/Toolkit on the left menu. You?ll find it. (A more direct link is via Eco-Logica at http://www.eco-logica.co.uk/pdf/wtpp13.3.pdf). You comments on this latest WTPP number are invited via the New Mobility Caf?, address WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com. It would also be appreciated if you might copy to Professor Whitelegg who is always glad to have feedback on the journal. From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Mon Jan 21 20:41:02 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:41:02 +0100 Subject: [sustran] London Low Emission Zone project - announcing new restrictions on commercial, diesel vehicles in Greater London (14 m people). Message-ID: <00aa01c85c22$825c2720$87147560$@britton@ecoplan.org> Heads-up by Noel Hodson. Thanks Noel >From Transport for London: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/default.aspx The Mayor of London has confirmed plans to introduce a Low Emission Zone (LEZ) across London. The aim of the scheme is to improve air quality in the city by deterring the most polluting vehicles from driving in the area. The vehicles affected by the LEZ are older diesel-engine lorries, buses, coaches, large vans, minibuses and other heavy vehicles that are derived from lorries and vans, such as motor caravans and motorised horse boxes. There will be a phased introduction of the scheme from 4 February 2008 through to January 2012. Cars and motorcycles are not affected by the scheme. TfL gives operators leeway on LEZ compliance http://www.roadtransport.com/Articles/2008/01/17/129541/tfl-gives-operators- leeway-on-lez-compliance.html 17 January 2008 Rapid developments have occurred since Commercial Motor's story on operators needing more time to prepare for the London Low Emission Zone. Transport for London has now given operators some leeway regarding the London LEZ, after it emerged that many were not receiving their aftermarket diesel particulate filters on time. A TfL statement reads: "Transport for London is giving operators who drive in the zone with vehicles that do not comply a 28 day warning period in which to bring their vehicles into compliance. During this time they will not be fined, but after 28 days penalty charge notices will be issued and it will be up to the operator to show that they have made all reasonable progress before the introduction of the zone." Nick Fairholme, head of the London LEZ , says: "We are making the warning letter and the 28 day period known to operators now, particularly those who have sought to take action in the period up to 4 February and are concerned that they are waiting on delivery of new vehicles or to have abatement equipment fitted." This follows a barrage of complaints from operators and the RHA, after particulate filter manufacturers said they could not match demand due to large order books and problems with raw materials procurement. AdTech Ad Dylan Gray Email at dylan.gray@rbi.co.uk London hauliers get 28 days to clean up their act Transport for London (TfL) has been praised by small business leaders, after adding a 28-day "grace period" to its new Low Emission Zone (LEZ) legislation. The LEZ scheme, which launches in February, will fine heavily polluting vehicles that drive into Greater London. Responding to concerns raised by the Federation of Small Businesses (FSB), TfL adjusted the rules, giving firms time to bring their vehicles up to standard. Polluters, who will predominantly be haulage businesses, will be allowed 28 days after a first warning letter to show they are taking steps to lower vehicle emissions. During this period they will not receive further fines and, if they can prove they have "sought to comply with emissions standards", they will be able to apply to have all previous fines refunded. Chris Glen, Transport Chair of the FSB , said: "We support the principle of improving London's air quality but we need to make sure people are aware of the scheme in advance and can make changes so costs can be kept low." "Transport for London's approach to the introduction of the scheme is very welcome news indeed. This will give businesses that weren't aware of the scheme more time to prepare." From regina at wholechoice.net Tue Jan 22 09:47:18 2008 From: regina at wholechoice.net (Gina Anderson) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:47:18 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Fwd: "Census Transportation Planning Products" Job at Census Bureau Message-ID: <20080122084718.73hxzwbqwwk0gk4s@www.wholechoice.net> Dear All, any statistics/data heads and transport experts out there? See position below. best, Gina -- Regina Anderson, AICP WholeChoice Master Planning, Pedestrian Design, Sustainability Singapore phone +65 6467-6594 ----- Forwarded message from edc@berwyned.com ----- Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:03:38 -0600 From: Ed Christopher Reply-To: Ed Christopher Subject: [CTPP] CTPP Job at Census Bureau Please accept my apologies for cross posting but it is important that we find someone good who is dedicated to the cause. The Census Bureau CB) has a position available (GS13) for someone to work on the Census Transportation Planning Products (CTPP) program within the Bureau in Suitland Maryland. Although this person will be "inside the CB" they will be an integral component of the larger CTPP family. Here is the link to the job posting which closes February 8, 2008. http://jobsearch.usajobs.gov/ftva.asp?seeker=1&JobID=67488731 According to the job description.... this position is located in the Journey to Work and Migration Statistics Branch of the Housing and Household Economic Statistics Division. Incumbent will report to the Chief of the branch and serve as the project coordinator for the Census Transportation Planning Products (CTPP) program inside the Census Bureau. Serves as main point of contact between the Census Bureau, the American Association of State Highway Transportation Officials (AASHTO), and the Department of Transportation (DOT) concerning the CTPP program. Monitors day-to-day program activities for achieving agreed-upon milestones, verifying and validating cost projections, meeting user requirements, and delivering projected benefits. Participates in the planning, design, and coordination of the CTPP program. Assists in determining the subject matter and geographic content of custom products for the project and participates in creation, review, and distribution of products and associated data access tools. Conducts research analyses associated with the project. The project coordinator may also assist in training and outreach activities associated with the program. Please distribute this to anyone you think might be interested. -- _______________________________________________ ctpp-news mailing list ctpp-news@chrispy.net http://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news ----- End forwarded message ----- From bruun at seas.upenn.edu Wed Jan 23 05:16:43 2008 From: bruun at seas.upenn.edu (bruun at seas.upenn.edu) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 15:16:43 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080122151643.yw6t3tjzcoos8448@webmail.seas.upenn.edu> Hassaan The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists themselves in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a very lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of their users as well, and bring the ratio up. This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well known, is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5 percent auto ownership. On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right that the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's government works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. Eric Bruun Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : > Friends, > > There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line every few > seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting and the most > positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's mobility breakthrough > has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to see so many negative > sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I don't remember so many > issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart car came out. Regardless of > the fact that the Smart car was probably one major reason for the eventual > divorce between Daimler and Chrysler, how does the economic and social > disparity between the developed and developing world create the context to > despise such an incredible product? > > Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the masses > or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole suite of > technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory oversight, > etc.) are also provided. > > Regards, > > Hassaan > > > -- > Institutional Development Specialist > Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) > Planning & Development Department, > Government of the Punjab > > A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan > T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) > F: 9213585 > M: 0345 455 6016 > Skype: halgazel > http://hghazali.googlepages.com > > *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot > post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site > makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries (the 'Global South'). > > From schipper at wri.org Wed Jan 23 05:21:18 2008 From: schipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 15:21:18 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime References: <20080122151643.yw6t3tjzcoos8448@webmail.seas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C011A99D5@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show, today which you Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems as I know where there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita Roychowdry of CSE and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and there were call ins as well. lee Lee Schipper EMBARQ Fellow EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net skype: mrmeter +1 510 642 6889 Cell +1 202 262 7476 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of bruun@seas.upenn.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime Hassaan The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists themselves in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a very lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of their users as well, and bring the ratio up. This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well known, is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5 percent auto ownership. On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right that the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's government works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. Eric Bruun Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : > Friends, > > There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line > every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting > and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's > mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to > see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I > don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart > car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably > one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and > Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the > developed and developing world create the context to despise such an incredible product? > > Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the > masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole > suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory > oversight, > etc.) are also provided. > > Regards, > > Hassaan > > > -- > Institutional Development Specialist > Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & > Development Department, Government of the Punjab > > A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan > T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) > F: 9213585 > M: 0345 455 6016 > Skype: halgazel > http://hghazali.googlepages.com > > *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot > post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes > it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From whook at itdp.org Wed Jan 23 07:42:17 2008 From: whook at itdp.org (Walter Hook) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:42:17 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime In-Reply-To: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C011A99D5@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Message-ID: <000201c85d48$0e1206b0$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't think that the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem. If the vehicle is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe emission standards, those are serious social problems. Other than this, it is great if the cost of vehicles goes down. However, it will create pressure on the governments to charge prices that more accurately reflect the full social cost of the use of the vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road user charges. Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive ones. I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it wasn't picked up. -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Lee Schipper Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM To: bruun@seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show, today which you Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems as I know where there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita Roychowdry of CSE and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and there were call ins as well. lee Lee Schipper EMBARQ Fellow EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net skype: mrmeter +1 510 642 6889 Cell +1 202 262 7476 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of bruun@seas.upenn.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime Hassaan The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists themselves in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a very lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of their users as well, and bring the ratio up. This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well known, is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5 percent auto ownership. On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right that the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's government works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. Eric Bruun Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : > Friends, > > There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line > every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting > and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's > mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to > see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I > don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart > car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably > one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and > Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the > developed and developing world create the context to despise such an incredible product? > > Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the > masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole > suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory > oversight, > etc.) are also provided. > > Regards, > > Hassaan > > > -- > Institutional Development Specialist > Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & > Development Department, Government of the Punjab > > A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan > T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) > F: 9213585 > M: 0345 455 6016 > Skype: halgazel > http://hghazali.googlepages.com > > *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot > post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes > it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From edelman at greenidea.eu Wed Jan 23 08:33:20 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:33:20 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime In-Reply-To: <000201c85d48$0e1206b0$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> References: <000201c85d48$0e1206b0$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> Message-ID: <47967D40.1040405@greenidea.eu> Hi Walter, Walter Hook wrote: > I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't think that > the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem. OK > If the vehicle > is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe emission > standards, those are serious social problems. YES > Other than this, it is great > if the cost of vehicles goes down. WHY? > However, it will create pressure on the > governments to charge prices that more accurately reflect the full social > cost of the use of the vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road > user charges. COULD you explain this, please? > Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive > ones. I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it wasn't > picked up. > THANKS, T > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf > Of Lee Schipper > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM > To: bruun@seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime > > WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show, > today which you > Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems as I know where > there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita Roychowdry of CSE > and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and there were call ins > as well. > > lee > > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > and > Visiting Scholar > UC Transportation Center > Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > +1 510 642 6889 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of bruun@seas.upenn.edu > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM > To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime > > Hassaan > > The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is > going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and > livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about > fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. > > One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to > pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists themselves > in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to > them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a very > lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of their > users as well, and bring the ratio up. > > This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people > haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well known, > is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. > Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within > many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause > many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5 > percent auto ownership. > > On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right that > the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's government > works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be > working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as > possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other > people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be > class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. > > Eric Bruun > > > > > Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : > > >> Friends, >> >> There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line >> every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting >> and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's >> mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to >> see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I >> don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart >> car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably >> one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and >> Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the >> developed and developing world create the context to despise such an >> > incredible product? > >> Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the >> masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole >> suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory >> oversight, >> etc.) are also provided. >> >> Regards, >> >> Hassaan >> >> >> -- >> Institutional Development Specialist >> Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & >> Development Department, Government of the Punjab >> >> A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan >> T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) >> F: 9213585 >> M: 0345 455 6016 >> Skype: halgazel >> http://hghazali.googlepages.com >> >> *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >> > YAHOOGROUPS. > >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss >> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot >> post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes >> it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >> countries (the 'Global South'). >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. From sudhir at secon.in Wed Jan 23 08:48:09 2008 From: sudhir at secon.in (Sudhir) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 05:18:09 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime In-Reply-To: <000201c85d48$0e1206b0$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> References: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C011A99D5@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> <000201c85d48$0e1206b0$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> Message-ID: Sir, Rapid Motorisation is the main cause of urban chaos in India. The problem with cars such as tata is that is is highly affordable to the Indian middle class. The middle class which generally prefer 2 wheelers would start shifting towards cars which would further increase the congestion problems. The safety is not an issue here as the car would be much safer than walking, 2 wheelers. already cities are undergoing multiple vehicle ownership phenomenon without having space to park at home/work/road. The public transportation would suffer further degradation as competition would bring 2-wheeler price down in order to keep the sales. One lakh car (price) would add many lakhs of vehicles on road and that is the main problem. Regards Sudhir -----Original Message----- From: "Walter Hook" To: "'Lee Schipper'" , , Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:42:17 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't think that the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem. If the vehicle is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe emission standards, those are serious social problems. Other than this, it is great if the cost of vehicles goes down. However, it will create pressure on the governments to charge prices that more accurately reflect the full social cost of the use of the vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road user charges. Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive ones. I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it wasn't picked up. -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Lee Schipper Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM To: bruun@seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show, today which you Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems as I know where there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita Roychowdry of CSE and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and there were call ins as well. lee Lee Schipper EMBARQ Fellow EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org [http://www.embarq.wri.org/] and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net [http://www.uctc.net/] skype: mrmeter +1 510 642 6889 Cell +1 202 262 7476 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of bruun@seas.upenn.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime Hassaan The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists themselves in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a very lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of their users as well, and bring the ratio up. This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well known, is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5 percent auto ownership. On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right that the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's government works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. Eric Bruun Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : > Friends, > > There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line > every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting > and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's > mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to > see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I > don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart > car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably > one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and > Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the > developed and developing world create the context to despise such an incredible product? > > Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the > masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole > suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory > oversight, > etc.) are also provided. > > Regards, > > Hassaan > > > -- > Institutional Development Specialist > Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & > Development Department, Government of the Punjab > > A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan > T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) > F: 9213585 > M: 0345 455 6016 > Skype: halgazel > http://hghazali.googlepages.com [http://hghazali.googlepages.com/] > > *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss [http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss] > to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot > post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes > it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss [http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss] to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss [http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss] to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss [http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss] to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From schipper at wri.org Wed Jan 23 09:22:47 2008 From: schipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:22:47 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility orMobilizing Crime References: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C011A99D5@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> <000201c85d48$0e1206b0$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342CC73A50@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Judging from the callers to the radio show I did today, Americans don't seem to grasp what Sudhir (and others) have written, that Indian streets are already jammed and that providing yet another cheap mode of individual motorization makes life worse for everyone (including those stuck in their cars) more than it might enhance the well being of those inside the mini cars. In that sense the point below about cheap cars forcing two wheelers to be even cheaper is very well taken Lee Schipper EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org >From Oct 1, Visiting Scholar, UC Transportation Center UC Berkeley, CA www.uctc.net 510 642 6889 202 262 7476 ________________________________ From: Sudhir [mailto:sudhir@secon.in] Sent: Tue 1/22/2008 3:48 PM To: Walter Hook; Lee Schipper; bruun@seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility orMobilizing Crime Sir, Rapid Motorisation is the main cause of urban chaos in India. The problem with cars such as tata is that is is highly affordable to the Indian middle class. The middle class which generally prefer 2 wheelers would start shifting towards cars which would further increase the congestion problems. The safety is not an issue here as the car would be much safer than walking, 2 wheelers. already cities are undergoing multiple vehicle ownership phenomenon without having space to park at home/work/road. The public transportation would suffer further degradation as competition would bring 2-wheeler price down in order to keep the sales. One lakh car (price) would add many lakhs of vehicles on road and that is the main problem. Regards Sudhir -----Original Message----- From: "Walter Hook" To: "'Lee Schipper'" , , Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:42:17 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't think that the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem. If the vehicle is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe emission standards, those are serious social problems. Other than this, it is great if the cost of vehicles goes down. However, it will create pressure on the governments to charge prices that more accurately reflect the full social cost of the use of the vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road user charges. Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive ones. I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it wasn't picked up. -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Lee Schipper Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM To: bruun@seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show, today which you Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems as I know where there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita Roychowdry of CSE and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and there were call ins as well. lee Lee Schipper EMBARQ Fellow EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net skype: mrmeter +1 510 642 6889 Cell +1 202 262 7476 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of bruun@seas.upenn.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime Hassaan The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists themselves in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a very lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of their users as well, and bring the ratio up. This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well known, is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5 percent auto ownership. On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right that the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's government works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. Eric Bruun Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : > Friends, > > There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line > every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting > and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's > mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to > see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I > don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart > car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably > one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and > Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the > developed and developing world create the context to despise such an incredible product? > > Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the > masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole > suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory > oversight, > etc.) are also provided. > > Regards, > > Hassaan > > > -- > Institutional Development Specialist > Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & > Development Department, Government of the Punjab > > A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan > T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) > F: 9213585 > M: 0345 455 6016 > Skype: halgazel > http://hghazali.googlepages.com > > *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot > post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes > it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From info at autofrei-wohnen.de Thu Jan 24 00:10:47 2008 From: info at autofrei-wohnen.de (Markus Heller) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:10:47 +0100 Subject: [sustran] lowemissionzones.eu - new website on European Low Emission Zones References: <00aa01c85c22$825c2720$87147560$@britton@ecoplan.org> Message-ID: <01ee01c85dd2$a7fc8a40$0100a8c0@Markus> New website on European "Low Emission Zones" (LEZ): http://www.lowemissionzones.eu * List of LEZ Cities: http://www.lowemissionzones.eu/content/view/107/145/lang,en/ * about: This website is run by a Network of EU LEZ cities, on behalf of cities, ministries and regions, working together to spread information about the LEZs that they run. Full information is given on the LEZs operated by members of the Network. Very basic information is given on LEZs for non-members. All the LEZs displayed on this website have been confirmed as in operation or preparation. In a very few cases this may change, for example the air quality may improve through other means, or the start date may slip. There may also be LEZs that are under preparation but not yet confirmed, that are not on this website. If you want to contact anyone about the LEZs, then please contact the individual city, the websites are given on the links page and on the individual LEZ city page. * Today`s press release from Berlin (in German): http://www.berlin.de/landespressestelle/archiv/2008/01/23/92599/index.html Berlin initiated a common information platform on Low Emission Zones together with other european partner cities like London, Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Utrecht (...) website gives overview where LEZs already exist or are planned (...) website provides all technical details (...) ~70 cities have or are planning LEZs (...) more info / contact: Sadler Consultants, http://www.airqualitypolicy.co.uk * Markus www.autofrei-wohnen.de/homeEngl.html From whook at itdp.org Thu Jan 24 02:44:30 2008 From: whook at itdp.org (Walter Hook) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:44:30 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime In-Reply-To: <47967D40.1040405@greenidea.eu> Message-ID: <000c01c85de7$9ca162f0$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> Todd People in developing countries still face significant mobility constraints, and for them low cost vehicles are a boon. A motorbike, a motorized three wheeler, a car, these things may be an economic lifeline to a relatively poor family. Ownership without use poses relatively minor social problems, so what is the problem with a cheap car? The social problems are primarily associated with use, so it is primarily the cost of the use of vehicles that needs to be increased to reflect the true social cost, not the ownership of the vehicle. The optimal cost of the car is the cost it takes to make a car someone wants safely that meets all the regulatory requirements. With China and India becoming big producers and mechanization proceeding apace, the price of motor vehicles in real terms is likely to fall over time. All manufactured goods fall in price. Falling consumer prices are in general a sign of progress. Less of society's labor required to produce the vehicle, leaves money to spend on something else. However, what is never going to fall in price is the value of downtown real estate, including the value of road space in desirable locations. There is only one Greenwich Village in Manhattan, and on streets with extremely expensive real estate parking is absolutely free. Of course the result is that there is virtually no parking available, and most of this valuable real estate ends up being used as a car storage facility for local residents and shop owners. This is completely crazy, and people are slowly waking up to this madness. What is also unlikely to fall in price is oil. Hence, over time the use of vehicles is going to increase in price, and the cost of ownership decrease in relative terms. It is not impossible to imagine that at some point cars, like cell phones, will be practically given away for free in order to sell much more expensive services related to them, like parking, oil, whatever. With Zip Car, you don't need to own the vehicle at all, you are mainly paying for the garaging and gasoline and vehicle maintenance. The replacement cost of the vehicle is relatively minor. One can imagine that you could pay so much for a parking slot in a garage that the garage eventually will throw in the use of the car for free. It seems to me an exercise in futility and risks sounding elitist to complain about the low cost of vehicles when the social problem lies elsewhere. w -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:33 PM Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime Hi Walter, Walter Hook wrote: > I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't think that > the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem. OK > If the vehicle > is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe emission > standards, those are serious social problems. YES > Other than this, it is great > if the cost of vehicles goes down. WHY? > However, it will create pressure on the > governments to charge prices that more accurately reflect the full social > cost of the use of the vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road > user charges. COULD you explain this, please? > Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive > ones. I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it wasn't > picked up. > THANKS, T > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf > Of Lee Schipper > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM > To: bruun@seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime > > WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show, > today which you > Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems as I know where > there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita Roychowdry of CSE > and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and there were call ins > as well. > > lee > > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > and > Visiting Scholar > UC Transportation Center > Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > +1 510 642 6889 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of bruun@seas.upenn.edu > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM > To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime > > Hassaan > > The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is > going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and > livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about > fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. > > One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to > pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists themselves > in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to > them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a very > lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of their > users as well, and bring the ratio up. > > This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people > haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well known, > is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. > Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within > many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause > many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5 > percent auto ownership. > > On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right that > the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's government > works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be > working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as > possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other > people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be > class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. > > Eric Bruun > > > > > Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : > > >> Friends, >> >> There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line >> every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting >> and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's >> mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to >> see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I >> don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart >> car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably >> one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and >> Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the >> developed and developing world create the context to despise such an >> > incredible product? > >> Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the >> masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole >> suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory >> oversight, >> etc.) are also provided. >> >> Regards, >> >> Hassaan >> >> >> -- >> Institutional Development Specialist >> Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & >> Development Department, Government of the Punjab >> >> A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan >> T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) >> F: 9213585 >> M: 0345 455 6016 >> Skype: halgazel >> http://hghazali.googlepages.com >> >> *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >> > YAHOOGROUPS. > >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss >> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot >> post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes >> it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >> countries (the 'Global South'). >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From pendakur at interchange.ubc.ca Thu Jan 24 03:15:54 2008 From: pendakur at interchange.ubc.ca (Pendakur) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:15:54 -0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime In-Reply-To: <000c01c85de7$9ca162f0$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> Message-ID: <20080123181604.DF1EB2C1E1@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> It would be good if all the people who have sent in discussions on the "smart Tata car", to place themselves in the position of a person, say in Bangalore (india), who has two children and a spouse, all going to different destinations. Even though the bus system is ok in Banaglore, compared to other cities in India, it would take this family a great deal of time and money to reach their destinations,. In addition, all four destinations (2 schools and 2 work places) are farther apart. This smart car is a boon to this family. It will cut their travel time in half and provide a safer vehicle than the motor cycle they use now. Eloquence is good (criminalizing mobility) but empty eloquence from a distance is rarely of any significance. Cheers. Setty Dr. V. Setty Pendakur Professor Emeritus, University of BC Honorary Professor, China National Academy of Sciences; Director, ITDP (NY) & Secretary, ABE90-TRB President, Pacific Policy and Planning Associates 702- 1099 Marinaside Cresecent, Vancouver, BC Canada V6Z 2Z3 604-263-3576; Fax: 604-263-6493 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org ] On Behalf Of Walter Hook Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:45 AM To: edelman@greenidea.eu Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime Todd People in developing countries still face significant mobility constraints, and for them low cost vehicles are a boon. A motorbike, a motorized three wheeler, a car, these things may be an economic lifeline to a relatively poor family. Ownership without use poses relatively minor social problems, so what is the problem with a cheap car? The social problems are primarily associated with use, so it is primarily the cost of the use of vehicles that needs to be increased to reflect the true social cost, not the ownership of the vehicle. The optimal cost of the car is the cost it takes to make a car someone wants safely that meets all the regulatory requirements. With China and India becoming big producers and mechanization proceeding apace, the price of motor vehicles in real terms is likely to fall over time. All manufactured goods fall in price. Falling consumer prices are in general a sign of progress. Less of society's labor required to produce the vehicle, leaves money to spend on something else. However, what is never going to fall in price is the value of downtown real estate, including the value of road space in desirable locations. There is only one Greenwich Village in Manhattan, and on streets with extremely expensive real estate parking is absolutely free. Of course the result is that there is virtually no parking available, and most of this valuable real estate ends up being used as a car storage facility for local residents and shop owners. This is completely crazy, and people are slowly waking up to this madness. What is also unlikely to fall in price is oil. Hence, over time the use of vehicles is going to increase in price, and the cost of ownership decrease in relative terms. It is not impossible to imagine that at some point cars, like cell phones, will be practically given away for free in order to sell much more expensive services related to them, like parking, oil, whatever. With Zip Car, you don't need to own the vehicle at all, you are mainly paying for the garaging and gasoline and vehicle maintenance. The replacement cost of the vehicle is relatively minor. One can imagine that you could pay so much for a parking slot in a garage that the garage eventually will throw in the use of the car for free. It seems to me an exercise in futility and risks sounding elitist to complain about the low cost of vehicles when the social problem lies elsewhere. w -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:33 PM Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime Hi Walter, Walter Hook wrote: > I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't think that > the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem. OK > If the vehicle > is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe emission > standards, those are serious social problems. YES > Other than this, it is great > if the cost of vehicles goes down. WHY? > However, it will create pressure on the > governments to charge prices that more accurately reflect the full social > cost of the use of the vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road > user charges. COULD you explain this, please? > Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive > ones. I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it wasn't > picked up. > THANKS, T > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf > Of Lee Schipper > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM > To: bruun@seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime > > WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show, > today which you > Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems as I know where > there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita Roychowdry of CSE > and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and there were call ins > as well. > > lee > > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > and > Visiting Scholar > UC Transportation Center > Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > +1 510 642 6889 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of bruun@seas.upenn.edu > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM > To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime > > Hassaan > > The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is > going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and > livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about > fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. > > One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to > pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists themselves > in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to > them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a very > lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of their > users as well, and bring the ratio up. > > This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people > haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well known, > is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. > Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within > many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause > many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5 > percent auto ownership. > > On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right that > the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's government > works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be > working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as > possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other > people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be > class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. > > Eric Bruun > > > > > Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : > > >> Friends, >> >> There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line >> every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting >> and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's >> mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to >> see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I >> don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart >> car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably >> one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and >> Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the >> developed and developing world create the context to despise such an >> > incredible product? > >> Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the >> masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole >> suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory >> oversight, >> etc.) are also provided. >> >> Regards, >> >> Hassaan >> >> >> -- >> Institutional Development Specialist >> Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & >> Development Department, Government of the Punjab >> >> A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan >> T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) >> F: 9213585 >> M: 0345 455 6016 >> Skype: halgazel >> http://hghazali.googlepages.com >> >> *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >> > YAHOOGROUPS. > >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss >> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot >> post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes >> it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >> countries (the 'Global South'). >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From schipper at wri.org Thu Jan 24 06:03:28 2008 From: schipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:03:28 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility orMobilizing Crime References: <20080123181604.DF1EB2C1E1@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C011EDD97@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Setty makes a fair point, but that's just the dilemma facing transport everywhere. The time-space geographer Waerneryd used the problem in the early 1970s -- only a car will connect all the tasks for those parents. The problem is that Waerneryd worked in Sweden, where even in the 1970s the kinds of congestion Bangalore and other Indian cities have NOW was unknown (and is still pretty mild). So an additional driver in Sweden could pretty much count on connecting more dots with a car than with collective transport. Steven Tyler studied Knivsta, a town n. of Stockholm on the main railroad line and road to Uppsala. He wondered why so many people drove to work? There were two answer -- one, tax policy permitted deduction for commuting expenses, and a car could be deducted if it saved 1/2 hour, and two, far more jobs were accessible by car than by mass transit within a given amount of driving time. In the early 1970s Sweden had the highest car ownership in Europe -- but it lost that lead to Germany, Italy, and now even other countries. One reason may be the good mass transit, i.e., that the number of people who really save money and time driving to work maxed out. Local authorities are trying to do that all over Scandinavia to reduce driving. Who is doing that in India, China, or the US today? Sweden also pioneered green taxes. If you bought a "standard" car in the 1990s you paid somewhat higher purchase taxes than if you bought one that satisfied California's more demanding pollution norms. This eased in a rapid transition away from leaded fuel (which cost more than unleaded from the mid 1980s) and from "high" sulfur diesel (high compared to the present <15 ppm in Sweden today, but well below Indian levels!). Now let's consider an Indian city. The roads are already choked - some will save time as above if they now drive to where they have to go. But how much time (and pollution) will everyone else suffer? Is the balance the same as in Sweden (or if you will, the US, where the AVERAGE commute is still under 25 minutes, albeit with a clear tail)? Stockholm recently opted for a congesting charging scheme to try to ration better the available space on the limited number of bridges and other ways into town. Could or should Indian cities do the same? Should they start NOW before decisions about car ownership and housing are made, or after, as Stockholm did? Congestion charging may not be the ideal mechanism for India, but it has helped achieve a better balance on crowded roads in Stockholm, London, and for many years Singapore So Setty, the question is not whether the family you describe is right or wrong, rather, what policy package would put them in a position to consider ALL costs not just their own gains in time? And what mechanisms are appropriate for ALL cities to achieve a better balance between individual and collective traffic? It seems to me that if motorizing cities act first to strengthen collective transport, strengthen and enforce emissions and fuel norms, and establish a clear tradition that everyone pays for the costs he/she imposes on others (congestion, noise, air pollution etc) I wish I knew the answer. Unfortunately even the so called leader of the Free Market, the US, can't seem to wrap its mind around the Swedish approach. Which one will India choose? Lee Schipper EMBARQ Fellow EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net skype: mrmeter +1 510 642 6889 Cell +1 202 262 7476 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Pendakur Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:16 AM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility orMobilizing Crime It would be good if all the people who have sent in discussions on the "smart Tata car", to place themselves in the position of a person, say in Bangalore (india), who has two children and a spouse, all going to different destinations. Even though the bus system is ok in Banaglore, compared to other cities in India, it would take this family a great deal of time and money to reach their destinations,. In addition, all four destinations (2 schools and 2 work places) are farther apart. This smart car is a boon to this family. It will cut their travel time in half and provide a safer vehicle than the motor cycle they use now. Eloquence is good (criminalizing mobility) but empty eloquence from a distance is rarely of any significance. Cheers. Setty Dr. V. Setty Pendakur Professor Emeritus, University of BC Honorary Professor, China National Academy of Sciences; Director, ITDP (NY) & Secretary, ABE90-TRB President, Pacific Policy and Planning Associates 702- 1099 Marinaside Cresecent, Vancouver, BC Canada V6Z 2Z3 604-263-3576; Fax: 604-263-6493 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc .org ] On Behalf Of Walter Hook Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:45 AM To: edelman@greenidea.eu Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime Todd People in developing countries still face significant mobility constraints, and for them low cost vehicles are a boon. A motorbike, a motorized three wheeler, a car, these things may be an economic lifeline to a relatively poor family. Ownership without use poses relatively minor social problems, so what is the problem with a cheap car? The social problems are primarily associated with use, so it is primarily the cost of the use of vehicles that needs to be increased to reflect the true social cost, not the ownership of the vehicle. The optimal cost of the car is the cost it takes to make a car someone wants safely that meets all the regulatory requirements. With China and India becoming big producers and mechanization proceeding apace, the price of motor vehicles in real terms is likely to fall over time. All manufactured goods fall in price. Falling consumer prices are in general a sign of progress. Less of society's labor required to produce the vehicle, leaves money to spend on something else. However, what is never going to fall in price is the value of downtown real estate, including the value of road space in desirable locations. There is only one Greenwich Village in Manhattan, and on streets with extremely expensive real estate parking is absolutely free. Of course the result is that there is virtually no parking available, and most of this valuable real estate ends up being used as a car storage facility for local residents and shop owners. This is completely crazy, and people are slowly waking up to this madness. What is also unlikely to fall in price is oil. Hence, over time the use of vehicles is going to increase in price, and the cost of ownership decrease in relative terms. It is not impossible to imagine that at some point cars, like cell phones, will be practically given away for free in order to sell much more expensive services related to them, like parking, oil, whatever. With Zip Car, you don't need to own the vehicle at all, you are mainly paying for the garaging and gasoline and vehicle maintenance. The replacement cost of the vehicle is relatively minor. One can imagine that you could pay so much for a parking slot in a garage that the garage eventually will throw in the use of the car for free. It seems to me an exercise in futility and risks sounding elitist to complain about the low cost of vehicles when the social problem lies elsewhere. w -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:33 PM Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime Hi Walter, Walter Hook wrote: > I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't > think that > the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem. OK > If the vehicle > is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe > emission standards, those are serious social problems. YES > Other than this, it is great > if the cost of vehicles goes down. WHY? > However, it will create pressure on the governments to charge prices > that more accurately reflect the full social cost of the use of the > vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road user charges. COULD you explain this, please? > Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive > ones. I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it wasn't > picked up. > THANKS, T > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf > Of Lee Schipper > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM > To: bruun@seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime > > WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show, > today which you > Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems as I know where > there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita Roychowdry of CSE > and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and there were call ins > as well. > > lee > > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > and > Visiting Scholar > UC Transportation Center > Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > +1 510 642 6889 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of bruun@seas.upenn.edu > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM > To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime > > Hassaan > > The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is > going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and > livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about > fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. > > One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to > pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists themselves > in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to > them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a very > lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of their > users as well, and bring the ratio up. > > This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people > haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well known, > is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. > Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within > many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause > many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5 > percent auto ownership. > > On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right that > the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's government > works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be > working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as > possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other > people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be > class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. > > Eric Bruun > > > > > Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : > > >> Friends, >> >> There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line >> every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting >> and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's >> mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to >> see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I >> don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart >> car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably >> one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and >> Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the >> developed and developing world create the context to despise such an >> > incredible product? > >> Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the >> masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole >> suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory >> oversight, >> etc.) are also provided. >> >> Regards, >> >> Hassaan >> >> >> -- >> Institutional Development Specialist >> Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & >> Development Department, Government of the Punjab >> >> A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan >> T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) >> F: 9213585 >> M: 0345 455 6016 >> Skype: halgazel >> http://hghazali.googlepages.com >> >> *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >> > YAHOOGROUPS. > >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss >> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot >> post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes >> it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >> countries (the 'Global South'). >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From sujit at vsnl.com Thu Jan 24 06:16:17 2008 From: sujit at vsnl.com (Sujit Patwardhan) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 02:46:17 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility orMobilizing Crime In-Reply-To: <20080123181604.DF1EB2C1E1@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> References: <000c01c85de7$9ca162f0$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> <20080123181604.DF1EB2C1E1@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> Message-ID: <4cfd20aa0801231316g127eda63qc140570654fb29c1@mail.gmail.com> If they are all going to different destinations I don't see how owning the Nano would help very much, unless they buy several Nanos per family. And wouldn't it be much cheaper to improve the public transport (presently getting slower each year mainly due to the increased number of personal auto vehicles coming on the roads) by introducing bus lanes, more buses etc than to get into the vicious circle of building more roads, flyovers, parking lots etc which will not solve congestion but make it worse? Fortunately the central government has recently stopped funds to Bangalore city under the Jawaharlal Nehru National Urban renewal Mission (JNNURM) for flyovers and roads without preparation of a comprehensive citywide mobility plan that favours "mobility of people rather than vehicles" as stressed by the National Urban Transport Policy. Many NGOs in India welcome this step as explosion of auto vehicle numbers (not just the Nano) will be disaster for the country. -- Sujit On Jan 23, 2008 11:45 PM, Pendakur wrote: > It would be good if all the people who have sent in discussions on the > "smart Tata car", to place themselves in the position of a person, say in > Bangalore (india), who has two children and a spouse, all going to > different > destinations. Even though the bus system is ok in Banaglore, compared to > other cities in India, it would take this family a great deal of time and > money to reach their destinations,. In addition, all four destinations (2 > schools and 2 work places) are farther apart. This smart car is a boon to > this family. It will cut their travel time in half and provide a safer > vehicle than the motor cycle they use now. > > Eloquence is good (criminalizing mobility) but empty eloquence from a > distance is rarely of any significance. > > Cheers. > > Setty > Dr. V. Setty Pendakur > Professor Emeritus, University of BC > Honorary Professor, China National Academy of Sciences; > Director, ITDP (NY) & Secretary, ABE90-TRB > > President, Pacific Policy and Planning Associates > 702- 1099 Marinaside Cresecent, Vancouver, BC > Canada V6Z 2Z3 > 604-263-3576; Fax: 604-263-6493 > > -- ------------------------------------------------------ Sujit Patwardhan sujit@vsnl.com sujitjp@gmail.com "Yamuna", ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007 India Tel: 25537955 ----------------------------------------------------- Hon. Secretary: Parisar www.parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------ Founder Member: PTTF (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum) www.pttf.net ------------------------------------------------------ From sujit at vsnl.com Thu Jan 24 06:30:32 2008 From: sujit at vsnl.com (Sujit Patwardhan) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:00:32 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Bangalore Gets JNNURM Kick In-Reply-To: <4cfd20aa0801231248s55cdd420j76f5b77011874d8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4cfd20aa0801231248s55cdd420j76f5b77011874d8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4cfd20aa0801231330w1d45444bmcb1fd7dab74bf9aa@mail.gmail.com> 23 January 2008 About time this was done. JNNURM funds are not meant for projects meant mainly for personal auto vehicles. Are the authorities and politicians in Pune aware of this? Or do they need to be reminded by similar cancellation of funds for proposed flyovers in the city that are being pushed for by our political parties and the administration? -- Sujit http://www.downtoearth.org.in/full6.asp?foldername=20080131&filename=news&sec_id=4&sid=30 End of the road for Bangalore? *Bangalore Gets JNNURM Kick* RAVLEEN KAUR *Officials in the Union Ministry of Urban Development say the ministry has decided not to clear any more road and transport projects under JNNURM unless cities submitted a comprehensive mobility plan. "There is no blanket ban but we have asked cities to submit a mobility plan. We did return some projects because cities did not have it," says S K Lohia, director in the ministry. The centre formulated a National Urban Transport Policy in April 2006, which stressed that projects should be designed keeping in mind "the mobility of people rather than vehicles and should accordingly give priority to pedestrians, public transport and integrate land use and transport planning".* Bangalore Municipal Corporation's road projects have hit a dead end due to non-availability of funds. The corporation had applied for Rs 7,536 crore for flyovers and grade-separator projects under the Jawaharlal Nehru National Urban Renewal Mission (JNNURM). "Our city development plan had many road projects because the public expressed the need for them. We haven't received the second instalment for a lot of projects and Rs 105 crore for developing 170 km of arterial and sub-arterial roads have still not been released. We haven't even got an official response," says J Manjunath of the Bruhat Bangalore Mahanagar Palike. Officials in the Union Ministry of Urban Development say the ministry has decided not to clear any more road and transport projects under JNNURM unless cities submitted a comprehensive mobility plan. "There is no blanket ban but we have asked cities to submit a mobility plan. We did return some projects because cities did not have it," says S K Lohia, director in the ministry. The centre formulated a National Urban Transport Policy in April 2006, which stressed that projects should be designed keeping in mind "the mobility of people rather than vehicles and should accordingly give priority to pedestrians, public transport and integrate land use and transport planning". O P Mathur of the National Institute of Public Finance and Policy, New Delhi, says the government was focusing more on transport than roads. "Initially, they cleared a lot of projects but suddenly realized that a lot of money is going into flyovers. But this was not abrupt. They have given money for improving roads where cities have given convincing data for the need," he said. "We need to remember that the focus of jnnurm is reforms and not just infrastructure. If Bangalore corporation has not been issued finds, it may be because they have not been able to carry out certain reforms," he added. The move has been criticized because of the centre's delayed response. "The government should have made it clear that no flyovers and road projects will be sanctioned unless cities kept in mind decongestion, peddlers and bullock carts. They cleared projects because they were in a hurry to allot funds," says Vinay Baindur of Collaborative for Advancement of Studies in Urbanism through Mix-Media. -- ------------------------------------------------------ Sujit Patwardhan sujit@vsnl.com sujitjp@gmail.com "Yamuna", ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007 India Tel: 25537955 ----------------------------------------------------- Hon. Secretary: Parisar www.parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------ Founder Member: PTTF (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum) www.pttf.net ------------------------------------------------------ -- ------------------------------------------------------ Sujit Patwardhan sujit@vsnl.com sujitjp@gmail.com "Yamuna", ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007 India Tel: 25537955 ----------------------------------------------------- Hon. Secretary: Parisar www.parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------ Founder Member: PTTF (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum) www.pttf.net ------------------------------------------------------ From regina at wholechoice.net Thu Jan 24 10:40:26 2008 From: regina at wholechoice.net (Gina Anderson) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:40:26 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility orMobilizing Crime In-Reply-To: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C011EDD97@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> References: <20080123181604.DF1EB2C1E1@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C011EDD97@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Message-ID: <20080124094026.k250rdeijac0wwco@www.wholechoice.net> Thanks for setting some things out clearly Lee. Walter, your remarks seem a bit disingenuous. While theoretically there is no "problem" with an inexpensive car, I'm guessing you'd say there is a problem with government's ability/willingness to price parking/fuel/road use? to optimize efficient and equitable transport. But, the situation in most cities worldwide including Indian cities is that conventional mechanisms and pricing related to transport are in place. Introducing a cheap vehicle in such circumstances will clearly lead to worse levels of congestion in urban areas. I'm sure you know the term "super crush loading", which is a technical term that had to be coined to describe the level of service (LOS) on Indian commuter trains at peak times when passengers were hanging onto the outside of cars for their commute; certainly I made use of it when you were my thesis advisor 10 years or so back. Wouldn't a similar type of term need to be used to describe the LOS on roads in developing countries where motorization is expanding rapidly? Using the "theory of second best", meaning that the ideal solution is too difficult to reach (assuring sustainable transport by having "use" pricing that adequately promotes efficient modes, assuring all people can have their mobility needs met), the second best solution would have to be concerned with a very low cost car. It will skew the economics of transport decision-making and will cause worse mass congestion - and then truly only those with higher incomes will be able to get around. Gina Agarwal Anderson -- Regina Anderson, AICP WholeChoice Master Planning, Pedestrian Design, Sustainability Singapore phone +65 6467-6594 Quoting Lee Schipper : > Setty makes a fair point, but that's just the dilemma facing transport > everywhere. The time-space geographer Waerneryd used the problem in the > early 1970s -- only a car will connect all the tasks for those parents. > > The problem is that Waerneryd worked in Sweden, where even in the 1970s > the kinds of congestion Bangalore and other Indian cities have NOW was > unknown (and is still pretty mild). So an additional driver in Sweden > could pretty much count on connecting more dots with a car than with > collective transport. > > Steven Tyler studied Knivsta, a town n. of Stockholm on the main > railroad line and road to Uppsala. He wondered why so many people drove > to work? There were two answer -- one, tax policy permitted deduction > for commuting expenses, and a car could be deducted if it saved 1/2 > hour, and two, far more jobs were accessible by car than by mass transit > within a given amount of driving time. In the early 1970s Sweden had > the highest car ownership in Europe -- but it lost that lead to Germany, > Italy, and now even other countries. One reason may be the good mass > transit, i.e., that the number of people who really save money and time > driving to work maxed out. Local authorities are trying to do that all > over Scandinavia to reduce driving. Who is doing that in India, China, > or the US today? > > Sweden also pioneered green taxes. If you bought a "standard" car in the > 1990s you paid somewhat higher purchase taxes than if you bought one > that satisfied California's more demanding pollution norms. This eased > in a rapid transition away from leaded fuel (which cost more than > unleaded from the mid 1980s) and from "high" sulfur diesel (high > compared to the present <15 ppm in Sweden today, but well below Indian > levels!). > > Now let's consider an Indian city. The roads are already choked - some > will save time as above if they now drive to where they have to go. But > how much time (and pollution) will everyone else suffer? Is the balance > the same as in Sweden (or if you will, the US, where the AVERAGE commute > is still under 25 minutes, albeit with a clear tail)? Stockholm recently > opted for a congesting charging scheme to try to ration better the > available space on the limited number of bridges and other ways into > town. Could or should Indian cities do the same? Should they start NOW > before decisions about car ownership and housing are made, or after, as > Stockholm did? Congestion charging may not be the ideal mechanism for > India, but it has helped achieve a better balance on crowded roads in > Stockholm, London, and for many years Singapore > > So Setty, the question is not whether the family you describe is right > or wrong, rather, what policy package would put them in a position to > consider ALL costs not just their own gains in time? And what mechanisms > are appropriate for ALL cities to achieve a better balance between > individual and collective traffic? It seems to me that if motorizing > cities act first to strengthen collective transport, strengthen and > enforce emissions and fuel norms, and establish a clear tradition that > everyone pays for the costs he/she imposes on others (congestion, noise, > air pollution etc) > > I wish I knew the answer. Unfortunately even the so called leader of the > Free Market, the US, can't seem to wrap its mind around the Swedish > approach. Which one will India choose? > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > and > Visiting Scholar > UC Transportation Center > Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > +1 510 642 6889 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of Pendakur > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:16 AM > To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility > orMobilizing Crime > > It would be good if all the people who have sent in discussions on the > "smart Tata car", to place themselves in the position of a person, say > in Bangalore (india), who has two children and a spouse, all going to > different destinations. Even though the bus system is ok in Banaglore, > compared to other cities in India, it would take this family a great > deal of time and money to reach their destinations,. In addition, all > four destinations (2 schools and 2 work places) are farther apart. This > smart car is a boon to this family. It will cut their travel time in > half and provide a safer vehicle than the motor cycle they use now. > > Eloquence is good (criminalizing mobility) but empty eloquence from a > distance is rarely of any significance. > > Cheers. > > Setty > Dr. V. Setty Pendakur > Professor Emeritus, University of BC > Honorary Professor, China National Academy of Sciences; Director, ITDP > (NY) & Secretary, ABE90-TRB > > President, Pacific Policy and Planning Associates > 702- 1099 Marinaside Cresecent, Vancouver, BC Canada V6Z 2Z3 > 604-263-3576; Fax: 604-263-6493 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: > sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc > .org > ] On Behalf Of Walter Hook > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:45 AM > To: edelman@greenidea.eu > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime > > Todd > > People in developing countries still face significant mobility > constraints, and for them low cost vehicles are a boon. A motorbike, a > motorized three wheeler, a car, these things may be an economic lifeline > to a relatively poor family. > > Ownership without use poses relatively minor social problems, so what is > the problem with a cheap car? The social problems are primarily > associated with use, so it is primarily the cost of the use of vehicles > that needs to be increased to reflect the true social cost, not the > ownership of the vehicle. > > The optimal cost of the car is the cost it takes to make a car someone > wants safely that meets all the regulatory requirements. With China and > India becoming big producers and mechanization proceeding apace, the > price of motor vehicles in real terms is likely to fall over time. All > manufactured goods fall in price. Falling consumer prices are in > general a sign of progress. Less of society's labor required to produce > the vehicle, leaves money to spend on something else. > > However, what is never going to fall in price is the value of downtown > real estate, including the value of road space in desirable locations. > There is only one Greenwich Village in Manhattan, and on streets with > extremely expensive real estate parking is absolutely free. Of course > the result is that there is virtually no parking available, and most of > this valuable real estate ends up being used as a car storage facility > for local residents and shop owners. This is completely crazy, and > people are slowly waking up to this madness. > > What is also unlikely to fall in price is oil. Hence, over time the use > of vehicles is going to increase in price, and the cost of ownership > decrease in relative terms. > > It is not impossible to imagine that at some point cars, like cell > phones, will be practically given away for free in order to sell much > more expensive services related to them, like parking, oil, whatever. > With Zip Car, you don't need to own the vehicle at all, you are mainly > paying for the garaging and gasoline and vehicle maintenance. The > replacement cost of the vehicle is relatively minor. One can imagine > that you could pay so much for a parking slot in a garage that the > garage eventually will throw in the use of the car for free. > > It seems to me an exercise in futility and risks sounding elitist to > complain about the low cost of vehicles when the social problem lies > elsewhere. > > w > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:33 PM > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime > > Hi Walter, > > Walter Hook wrote: >> I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't >> think > that >> the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem. > OK >> If the vehicle >> is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe >> emission standards, those are serious social problems. > YES >> Other than this, it is great >> if the cost of vehicles goes down. > WHY? >> However, it will create pressure on the governments to charge prices > >> that more accurately reflect the full social cost of the use of the >> vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road user charges. > COULD you explain this, please? > >> Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive >> ones. I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it > wasn't >> picked up. >> > THANKS, > T > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf >> Of Lee Schipper >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM >> To: bruun@seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime >> >> WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show, >> today which you >> Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems as I know where >> there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita Roychowdry of CSE >> and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and there were call ins >> as well. >> >> lee >> >> >> Lee Schipper >> EMBARQ Fellow >> EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport >> www.embarq.wri.org >> and >> Visiting Scholar >> UC Transportation Center >> Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net >> skype: mrmeter >> +1 510 642 6889 >> Cell +1 202 262 7476 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On >> Behalf Of bruun@seas.upenn.edu >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM >> To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing >> Crime >> >> Hassaan >> >> The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is >> going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and >> livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about >> fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. >> >> One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to >> pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists > themselves >> in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to >> them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a > very >> lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of > their >> users as well, and bring the ratio up. >> >> This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people >> haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well > known, >> is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. >> Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within >> many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause >> many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5 >> percent auto ownership. >> >> On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right > that >> the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's > government >> works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be >> working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as >> possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other >> people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be >> class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. >> >> Eric Bruun >> >> >> >> >> Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : >> >> >>> Friends, >>> >>> There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line >>> every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting >>> and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's >>> mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to >>> see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I >>> don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart > >>> car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably >>> one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and >>> Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the >>> developed and developing world create the context to despise such an >>> >> incredible product? >> >>> Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the >>> masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole >>> suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory > >>> oversight, >>> etc.) are also provided. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Hassaan >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Institutional Development Specialist >>> Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & >>> Development Department, Government of the Punjab >>> >>> A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan >>> T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) >>> F: 9213585 >>> M: 0345 455 6016 >>> Skype: halgazel >>> http://hghazali.googlepages.com >>> >>> *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >>> >> YAHOOGROUPS. >> >>> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss >>> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >>> The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot >>> post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes > >>> it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >>> >>> ================================================================ >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >>> countries (the 'Global South'). >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >> YAHOOGROUPS. >> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to >> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The >> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post > to >> the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem >> like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >> YAHOOGROUPS. >> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to > join >> the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups >> version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real >> sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). >> Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. >> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like > you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). >> >> > > > -- > -------------------------------------------- > > Todd Edelman > Director > Green Idea Factory > > Korunni 72 > CZ-10100 Praha 10 > Czech Republic > > Skype: toddedelman > ++420 605 915 970 > ++420 222 517 832 > > edelman@greenidea.eu > http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman > > Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network > www.worldcarfree.net > > CAR is over. If you WANT it. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot > post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site > makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries (the 'Global South'). > From ranjithsd at sltnet.lk Thu Jan 24 12:29:53 2008 From: ranjithsd at sltnet.lk (Ranjith de Silva) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:59:53 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility orMobilizing Crime In-Reply-To: <20080123181604.DF1EB2C1E1@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> Message-ID: <20080124024536.5FCD31A0010@ovw1.sltnet.lk> Hi all, I was wondering what would happen when the road space used by two wheelers (motorcycles) when they are replaced by a bigger vehicle like a small car (as the latter comes within the purchasing power of the normal two-wheel user). Can you imagine this situation in a country like Vietnam? There will also be more demand for fuel than at present and naturally the cost will fly high making it difficult for the low income groups to use their vehicles having invested their hard earned money. Thanks. Ranjith Ranjith de Silva Regional Coordinator for Asia International Forum for Rural Transport and Development (IFRTD) C/o. 310/10 Ramanayaka Mawatha Erawwala Pannipitiya 10230 Sri Lanka Phone: +94 11 2842972 / 5018180 Email: ranjith@ifrtd.org Web: www.ifrtd.org / www.ruralwaterways.org / www.mobilityandhealth.org The IFRTD is a global network of individuals and organisations working together towards improved access, mobility and economic opportunity for poor communities in developing countries. -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+ranjithsd=sltnet.lk@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+ranjithsd=sltnet.lk@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Pendakur Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:46 PM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility orMobilizing Crime It would be good if all the people who have sent in discussions on the "smart Tata car", to place themselves in the position of a person, say in Bangalore (india), who has two children and a spouse, all going to different destinations. Even though the bus system is ok in Banaglore, compared to other cities in India, it would take this family a great deal of time and money to reach their destinations,. In addition, all four destinations (2 schools and 2 work places) are farther apart. This smart car is a boon to this family. It will cut their travel time in half and provide a safer vehicle than the motor cycle they use now. Eloquence is good (criminalizing mobility) but empty eloquence from a distance is rarely of any significance. Cheers. Setty Dr. V. Setty Pendakur Professor Emeritus, University of BC Honorary Professor, China National Academy of Sciences; Director, ITDP (NY) & Secretary, ABE90-TRB President, Pacific Policy and Planning Associates 702- 1099 Marinaside Cresecent, Vancouver, BC Canada V6Z 2Z3 604-263-3576; Fax: 604-263-6493 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org ] On Behalf Of Walter Hook Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:45 AM To: edelman@greenidea.eu Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime Todd People in developing countries still face significant mobility constraints, and for them low cost vehicles are a boon. A motorbike, a motorized three wheeler, a car, these things may be an economic lifeline to a relatively poor family. Ownership without use poses relatively minor social problems, so what is the problem with a cheap car? The social problems are primarily associated with use, so it is primarily the cost of the use of vehicles that needs to be increased to reflect the true social cost, not the ownership of the vehicle. The optimal cost of the car is the cost it takes to make a car someone wants safely that meets all the regulatory requirements. With China and India becoming big producers and mechanization proceeding apace, the price of motor vehicles in real terms is likely to fall over time. All manufactured goods fall in price. Falling consumer prices are in general a sign of progress. Less of society's labor required to produce the vehicle, leaves money to spend on something else. However, what is never going to fall in price is the value of downtown real estate, including the value of road space in desirable locations. There is only one Greenwich Village in Manhattan, and on streets with extremely expensive real estate parking is absolutely free. Of course the result is that there is virtually no parking available, and most of this valuable real estate ends up being used as a car storage facility for local residents and shop owners. This is completely crazy, and people are slowly waking up to this madness. What is also unlikely to fall in price is oil. Hence, over time the use of vehicles is going to increase in price, and the cost of ownership decrease in relative terms. It is not impossible to imagine that at some point cars, like cell phones, will be practically given away for free in order to sell much more expensive services related to them, like parking, oil, whatever. With Zip Car, you don't need to own the vehicle at all, you are mainly paying for the garaging and gasoline and vehicle maintenance. The replacement cost of the vehicle is relatively minor. One can imagine that you could pay so much for a parking slot in a garage that the garage eventually will throw in the use of the car for free. It seems to me an exercise in futility and risks sounding elitist to complain about the low cost of vehicles when the social problem lies elsewhere. w -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:33 PM Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime Hi Walter, Walter Hook wrote: > I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't think that > the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem. OK > If the vehicle > is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe emission > standards, those are serious social problems. YES > Other than this, it is great > if the cost of vehicles goes down. WHY? > However, it will create pressure on the > governments to charge prices that more accurately reflect the full social > cost of the use of the vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road > user charges. COULD you explain this, please? > Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive > ones. I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it wasn't > picked up. > THANKS, T > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf > Of Lee Schipper > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM > To: bruun@seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime > > WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show, > today which you > Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems as I know where > there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita Roychowdry of CSE > and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and there were call ins > as well. > > lee > > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > and > Visiting Scholar > UC Transportation Center > Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > +1 510 642 6889 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of bruun@seas.upenn.edu > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM > To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime > > Hassaan > > The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is > going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and > livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about > fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. > > One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to > pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists themselves > in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to > them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a very > lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of their > users as well, and bring the ratio up. > > This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people > haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well known, > is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. > Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within > many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause > many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5 > percent auto ownership. > > On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right that > the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's government > works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be > working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as > possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other > people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be > class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. > > Eric Bruun > > > > > Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : > > >> Friends, >> >> There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line >> every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting >> and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's >> mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to >> see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I >> don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart >> car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably >> one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and >> Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the >> developed and developing world create the context to despise such an >> > incredible product? > >> Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the >> masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole >> suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory >> oversight, >> etc.) are also provided. >> >> Regards, >> >> Hassaan >> >> >> -- >> Institutional Development Specialist >> Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & >> Development Department, Government of the Punjab >> >> A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan >> T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) >> F: 9213585 >> M: 0345 455 6016 >> Skype: halgazel >> http://hghazali.googlepages.com >> >> *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >> > YAHOOGROUPS. > >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss >> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot >> post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes >> it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >> countries (the 'Global South'). >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From schipper at wri.org Thu Jan 24 18:50:05 2008 From: schipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 04:50:05 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing MobilityorMobilizing Crime References: <20080124024536.5FCD31A0010@ovw1.sltnet.lk> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342CC73A78@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Another point well made. When I was in Hanoi in 2004 with a broken foot and the hotel drove me to a hospital in a van, we had trouble, not with the motorbikes, but teh cars parked on the narrow streets that almost blocked them. Its bad enough wht the sidewalks blocked by parked two wheelers. Where are all the Nano's going to park? Lee Schipper EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org >From Oct 1, Visiting Scholar, UC Transportation Center UC Berkeley, CA www.uctc.net 510 642 6889 202 262 7476 ________________________________ From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Ranjith de Silva Sent: Wed 1/23/2008 7:29 PM To: 'Pendakur'; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing MobilityorMobilizing Crime Hi all, I was wondering what would happen when the road space used by two wheelers (motorcycles) when they are replaced by a bigger vehicle like a small car (as the latter comes within the purchasing power of the normal two-wheel user). Can you imagine this situation in a country like Vietnam? There will also be more demand for fuel than at present and naturally the cost will fly high making it difficult for the low income groups to use their vehicles having invested their hard earned money. Thanks. Ranjith Ranjith de Silva Regional Coordinator for Asia International Forum for Rural Transport and Development (IFRTD) C/o. 310/10 Ramanayaka Mawatha Erawwala Pannipitiya 10230 Sri Lanka Phone: +94 11 2842972 / 5018180 Email: ranjith@ifrtd.org Web: www.ifrtd.org / www.ruralwaterways.org / www.mobilityandhealth.org The IFRTD is a global network of individuals and organisations working together towards improved access, mobility and economic opportunity for poor communities in developing countries. -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+ranjithsd=sltnet.lk@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+ranjithsd=sltnet.lk@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Pendakur Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:46 PM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility orMobilizing Crime It would be good if all the people who have sent in discussions on the "smart Tata car", to place themselves in the position of a person, say in Bangalore (india), who has two children and a spouse, all going to different destinations. Even though the bus system is ok in Banaglore, compared to other cities in India, it would take this family a great deal of time and money to reach their destinations,. In addition, all four destinations (2 schools and 2 work places) are farther apart. This smart car is a boon to this family. It will cut their travel time in half and provide a safer vehicle than the motor cycle they use now. Eloquence is good (criminalizing mobility) but empty eloquence from a distance is rarely of any significance. Cheers. Setty Dr. V. Setty Pendakur Professor Emeritus, University of BC Honorary Professor, China National Academy of Sciences; Director, ITDP (NY) & Secretary, ABE90-TRB President, Pacific Policy and Planning Associates 702- 1099 Marinaside Cresecent, Vancouver, BC Canada V6Z 2Z3 604-263-3576; Fax: 604-263-6493 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org ] On Behalf Of Walter Hook Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:45 AM To: edelman@greenidea.eu Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime Todd People in developing countries still face significant mobility constraints, and for them low cost vehicles are a boon. A motorbike, a motorized three wheeler, a car, these things may be an economic lifeline to a relatively poor family. Ownership without use poses relatively minor social problems, so what is the problem with a cheap car? The social problems are primarily associated with use, so it is primarily the cost of the use of vehicles that needs to be increased to reflect the true social cost, not the ownership of the vehicle. The optimal cost of the car is the cost it takes to make a car someone wants safely that meets all the regulatory requirements. With China and India becoming big producers and mechanization proceeding apace, the price of motor vehicles in real terms is likely to fall over time. All manufactured goods fall in price. Falling consumer prices are in general a sign of progress. Less of society's labor required to produce the vehicle, leaves money to spend on something else. However, what is never going to fall in price is the value of downtown real estate, including the value of road space in desirable locations. There is only one Greenwich Village in Manhattan, and on streets with extremely expensive real estate parking is absolutely free. Of course the result is that there is virtually no parking available, and most of this valuable real estate ends up being used as a car storage facility for local residents and shop owners. This is completely crazy, and people are slowly waking up to this madness. What is also unlikely to fall in price is oil. Hence, over time the use of vehicles is going to increase in price, and the cost of ownership decrease in relative terms. It is not impossible to imagine that at some point cars, like cell phones, will be practically given away for free in order to sell much more expensive services related to them, like parking, oil, whatever. With Zip Car, you don't need to own the vehicle at all, you are mainly paying for the garaging and gasoline and vehicle maintenance. The replacement cost of the vehicle is relatively minor. One can imagine that you could pay so much for a parking slot in a garage that the garage eventually will throw in the use of the car for free. It seems to me an exercise in futility and risks sounding elitist to complain about the low cost of vehicles when the social problem lies elsewhere. w -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:33 PM Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime Hi Walter, Walter Hook wrote: > I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't think that > the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem. OK > If the vehicle > is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe emission > standards, those are serious social problems. YES > Other than this, it is great > if the cost of vehicles goes down. WHY? > However, it will create pressure on the > governments to charge prices that more accurately reflect the full social > cost of the use of the vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road > user charges. COULD you explain this, please? > Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive > ones. I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it wasn't > picked up. > THANKS, T > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf > Of Lee Schipper > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM > To: bruun@seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime > > WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show, > today which you > Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems as I know where > there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita Roychowdry of CSE > and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and there were call ins > as well. > > lee > > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > and > Visiting Scholar > UC Transportation Center > Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > +1 510 642 6889 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of bruun@seas.upenn.edu > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM > To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime > > Hassaan > > The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is > going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and > livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about > fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. > > One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to > pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists themselves > in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to > them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a very > lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of their > users as well, and bring the ratio up. > > This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people > haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well known, > is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. > Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within > many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause > many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5 > percent auto ownership. > > On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right that > the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's government > works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be > working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as > possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other > people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be > class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. > > Eric Bruun > > > > > Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : > > >> Friends, >> >> There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line >> every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting >> and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's >> mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to >> see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I >> don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart >> car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably >> one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and >> Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the >> developed and developing world create the context to despise such an >> > incredible product? > >> Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the >> masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole >> suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory >> oversight, >> etc.) are also provided. >> >> Regards, >> >> Hassaan >> >> >> -- >> Institutional Development Specialist >> Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & >> Development Department, Government of the Punjab >> >> A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan >> T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) >> F: 9213585 >> M: 0345 455 6016 >> Skype: halgazel >> http://hghazali.googlepages.com >> >> *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >> > YAHOOGROUPS. > >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss >> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot >> post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes >> it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >> countries (the 'Global South'). >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From edelman at greenidea.eu Thu Jan 24 19:18:38 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:18:38 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility orMobilizing Crime In-Reply-To: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C011EDD97@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> References: <20080123181604.DF1EB2C1E1@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C011EDD97@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Message-ID: <479865FE.5020503@greenidea.eu> Hi Lee, Could you please explain what you mean by "balance"? Lee Schipper wrote: > [...] Is the balance > the same as in Sweden [...] > [...] what mechanisms are appropriate for ALL cities to achieve a better balance between > individual and collective traffic?[...] AS you might agree, there is this myth that there can be an ideal "balance" between various forms of transport, and adherents to this philosophy seem to becoming fewer in number.... I don't think this is what you meant - and I don't want to split hairs over terminology - but are you saying "balance" instead of "modal share"? The former is quite subjective, the latter is not (though of course it might be oversimplified because all journeys are multimodal unless you sleep (and so on...) on the bus, etc.). Thanks, T -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. From schipper at wri.org Thu Jan 24 19:54:08 2008 From: schipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 05:54:08 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility orMobilizing Crime References: <20080123181604.DF1EB2C1E1@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C011EDD97@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> <479865FE.5020503@greenidea.eu> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342CC73A8F@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Todd put his finger on the problem. What is the balance? Whatever it is, adding more inexpensive cars long before the NURM and other local plans have really strengthened alternatives will only make whatever that balance is be even mroe elusve and move indian cities farther away-- the only question is how long we have to argue where the balance point is? Lee Schipper EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org >From Oct 1, Visiting Scholar, UC Transportation Center UC Berkeley, CA www.uctc.net 510 642 6889 202 262 7476 ________________________________ From: Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory [mailto:edelman@greenidea.eu] Sent: Thu 1/24/2008 2:18 AM To: Lee Schipper Cc: Pendakur; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility orMobilizing Crime Hi Lee, Could you please explain what you mean by "balance"? Lee Schipper wrote: > [...] Is the balance > the same as in Sweden [...] > [...] what mechanisms are appropriate for ALL cities to achieve a better balance between > individual and collective traffic?[...] AS you might agree, there is this myth that there can be an ideal "balance" between various forms of transport, and adherents to this philosophy seem to becoming fewer in number.... I don't think this is what you meant - and I don't want to split hairs over terminology - but are you saying "balance" instead of "modal share"? The former is quite subjective, the latter is not (though of course it might be oversimplified because all journeys are multimodal unless you sleep (and so on...) on the bus, etc.). Thanks, T -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. From whook at itdp.org Fri Jan 25 00:04:55 2008 From: whook at itdp.org (Walter Hook) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:04:55 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime In-Reply-To: <20080124094026.k250rdeijac0wwco@www.wholechoice.net> Message-ID: <003201c85e9a$7d7b8280$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> Gina, Nice to hear from you! Of course there is going to be a major problem, but there will be a problem whatever the price of the car, it will just manifest itself sooner with lower car prices. Mumbai was proposing banning the car. Well, if they proposed banning it for some safety or tailpipe emission reason, ok, but it is absurd to ban it because the cost is low. This is, however, the tendency in Asia, to simply ban vehicle categories. They also banned non motorized three wheelers, diesel buses, etc. In Guangzhou they just banned motorcycles. Some good results of this, and some bad ones. In my view, banning vehicles due to low cost is a bad idea and sets an absurd regulatory precedent. There is a general problem in India of using such blanket bans to make up for the general inability of government to regulate in a more sophisticated way. I am hoping that over time pressure from motorization might lead to the use of more sophisticated regulatory tools, like parking regulation, proper tailpipe regulation, road worthiness testing, etc. -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Gina Anderson Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:40 PM To: Lee Schipper Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime Thanks for setting some things out clearly Lee. Walter, your remarks seem a bit disingenuous. While theoretically there is no "problem" with an inexpensive car, I'm guessing you'd say there is a problem with government's ability/willingness to price parking/fuel/road use? to optimize efficient and equitable transport. But, the situation in most cities worldwide including Indian cities is that conventional mechanisms and pricing related to transport are in place. Introducing a cheap vehicle in such circumstances will clearly lead to worse levels of congestion in urban areas. I'm sure you know the term "super crush loading", which is a technical term that had to be coined to describe the level of service (LOS) on Indian commuter trains at peak times when passengers were hanging onto the outside of cars for their commute; certainly I made use of it when you were my thesis advisor 10 years or so back. Wouldn't a similar type of term need to be used to describe the LOS on roads in developing countries where motorization is expanding rapidly? Using the "theory of second best", meaning that the ideal solution is too difficult to reach (assuring sustainable transport by having "use" pricing that adequately promotes efficient modes, assuring all people can have their mobility needs met), the second best solution would have to be concerned with a very low cost car. It will skew the economics of transport decision-making and will cause worse mass congestion - and then truly only those with higher incomes will be able to get around. Gina Agarwal Anderson -- Regina Anderson, AICP WholeChoice Master Planning, Pedestrian Design, Sustainability Singapore phone +65 6467-6594 Quoting Lee Schipper : > Setty makes a fair point, but that's just the dilemma facing transport > everywhere. The time-space geographer Waerneryd used the problem in the > early 1970s -- only a car will connect all the tasks for those parents. > > The problem is that Waerneryd worked in Sweden, where even in the 1970s > the kinds of congestion Bangalore and other Indian cities have NOW was > unknown (and is still pretty mild). So an additional driver in Sweden > could pretty much count on connecting more dots with a car than with > collective transport. > > Steven Tyler studied Knivsta, a town n. of Stockholm on the main > railroad line and road to Uppsala. He wondered why so many people drove > to work? There were two answer -- one, tax policy permitted deduction > for commuting expenses, and a car could be deducted if it saved 1/2 > hour, and two, far more jobs were accessible by car than by mass transit > within a given amount of driving time. In the early 1970s Sweden had > the highest car ownership in Europe -- but it lost that lead to Germany, > Italy, and now even other countries. One reason may be the good mass > transit, i.e., that the number of people who really save money and time > driving to work maxed out. Local authorities are trying to do that all > over Scandinavia to reduce driving. Who is doing that in India, China, > or the US today? > > Sweden also pioneered green taxes. If you bought a "standard" car in the > 1990s you paid somewhat higher purchase taxes than if you bought one > that satisfied California's more demanding pollution norms. This eased > in a rapid transition away from leaded fuel (which cost more than > unleaded from the mid 1980s) and from "high" sulfur diesel (high > compared to the present <15 ppm in Sweden today, but well below Indian > levels!). > > Now let's consider an Indian city. The roads are already choked - some > will save time as above if they now drive to where they have to go. But > how much time (and pollution) will everyone else suffer? Is the balance > the same as in Sweden (or if you will, the US, where the AVERAGE commute > is still under 25 minutes, albeit with a clear tail)? Stockholm recently > opted for a congesting charging scheme to try to ration better the > available space on the limited number of bridges and other ways into > town. Could or should Indian cities do the same? Should they start NOW > before decisions about car ownership and housing are made, or after, as > Stockholm did? Congestion charging may not be the ideal mechanism for > India, but it has helped achieve a better balance on crowded roads in > Stockholm, London, and for many years Singapore > > So Setty, the question is not whether the family you describe is right > or wrong, rather, what policy package would put them in a position to > consider ALL costs not just their own gains in time? And what mechanisms > are appropriate for ALL cities to achieve a better balance between > individual and collective traffic? It seems to me that if motorizing > cities act first to strengthen collective transport, strengthen and > enforce emissions and fuel norms, and establish a clear tradition that > everyone pays for the costs he/she imposes on others (congestion, noise, > air pollution etc) > > I wish I knew the answer. Unfortunately even the so called leader of the > Free Market, the US, can't seem to wrap its mind around the Swedish > approach. Which one will India choose? > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > and > Visiting Scholar > UC Transportation Center > Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > +1 510 642 6889 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of Pendakur > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:16 AM > To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility > orMobilizing Crime > > It would be good if all the people who have sent in discussions on the > "smart Tata car", to place themselves in the position of a person, say > in Bangalore (india), who has two children and a spouse, all going to > different destinations. Even though the bus system is ok in Banaglore, > compared to other cities in India, it would take this family a great > deal of time and money to reach their destinations,. In addition, all > four destinations (2 schools and 2 work places) are farther apart. This > smart car is a boon to this family. It will cut their travel time in > half and provide a safer vehicle than the motor cycle they use now. > > Eloquence is good (criminalizing mobility) but empty eloquence from a > distance is rarely of any significance. > > Cheers. > > Setty > Dr. V. Setty Pendakur > Professor Emeritus, University of BC > Honorary Professor, China National Academy of Sciences; Director, ITDP > (NY) & Secretary, ABE90-TRB > > President, Pacific Policy and Planning Associates > 702- 1099 Marinaside Cresecent, Vancouver, BC Canada V6Z 2Z3 > 604-263-3576; Fax: 604-263-6493 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: > sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc > .org > ] On Behalf Of Walter Hook > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:45 AM > To: edelman@greenidea.eu > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime > > Todd > > People in developing countries still face significant mobility > constraints, and for them low cost vehicles are a boon. A motorbike, a > motorized three wheeler, a car, these things may be an economic lifeline > to a relatively poor family. > > Ownership without use poses relatively minor social problems, so what is > the problem with a cheap car? The social problems are primarily > associated with use, so it is primarily the cost of the use of vehicles > that needs to be increased to reflect the true social cost, not the > ownership of the vehicle. > > The optimal cost of the car is the cost it takes to make a car someone > wants safely that meets all the regulatory requirements. With China and > India becoming big producers and mechanization proceeding apace, the > price of motor vehicles in real terms is likely to fall over time. All > manufactured goods fall in price. Falling consumer prices are in > general a sign of progress. Less of society's labor required to produce > the vehicle, leaves money to spend on something else. > > However, what is never going to fall in price is the value of downtown > real estate, including the value of road space in desirable locations. > There is only one Greenwich Village in Manhattan, and on streets with > extremely expensive real estate parking is absolutely free. Of course > the result is that there is virtually no parking available, and most of > this valuable real estate ends up being used as a car storage facility > for local residents and shop owners. This is completely crazy, and > people are slowly waking up to this madness. > > What is also unlikely to fall in price is oil. Hence, over time the use > of vehicles is going to increase in price, and the cost of ownership > decrease in relative terms. > > It is not impossible to imagine that at some point cars, like cell > phones, will be practically given away for free in order to sell much > more expensive services related to them, like parking, oil, whatever. > With Zip Car, you don't need to own the vehicle at all, you are mainly > paying for the garaging and gasoline and vehicle maintenance. The > replacement cost of the vehicle is relatively minor. One can imagine > that you could pay so much for a parking slot in a garage that the > garage eventually will throw in the use of the car for free. > > It seems to me an exercise in futility and risks sounding elitist to > complain about the low cost of vehicles when the social problem lies > elsewhere. > > w > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:33 PM > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime > > Hi Walter, > > Walter Hook wrote: >> I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't >> think > that >> the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem. > OK >> If the vehicle >> is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe >> emission standards, those are serious social problems. > YES >> Other than this, it is great >> if the cost of vehicles goes down. > WHY? >> However, it will create pressure on the governments to charge prices > >> that more accurately reflect the full social cost of the use of the >> vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road user charges. > COULD you explain this, please? > >> Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive >> ones. I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it > wasn't >> picked up. >> > THANKS, > T > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf >> Of Lee Schipper >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM >> To: bruun@seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime >> >> WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show, >> today which you >> Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems as I know where >> there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita Roychowdry of CSE >> and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and there were call ins >> as well. >> >> lee >> >> >> Lee Schipper >> EMBARQ Fellow >> EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport >> www.embarq.wri.org >> and >> Visiting Scholar >> UC Transportation Center >> Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net >> skype: mrmeter >> +1 510 642 6889 >> Cell +1 202 262 7476 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On >> Behalf Of bruun@seas.upenn.edu >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM >> To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing >> Crime >> >> Hassaan >> >> The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is >> going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and >> livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about >> fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. >> >> One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to >> pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists > themselves >> in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to >> them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a > very >> lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of > their >> users as well, and bring the ratio up. >> >> This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people >> haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well > known, >> is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. >> Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within >> many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause >> many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5 >> percent auto ownership. >> >> On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right > that >> the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's > government >> works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be >> working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as >> possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other >> people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be >> class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. >> >> Eric Bruun >> >> >> >> >> Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : >> >> >>> Friends, >>> >>> There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line >>> every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting >>> and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's >>> mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to >>> see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I >>> don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart > >>> car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably >>> one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and >>> Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the >>> developed and developing world create the context to despise such an >>> >> incredible product? >> >>> Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the >>> masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole >>> suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory > >>> oversight, >>> etc.) are also provided. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Hassaan >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Institutional Development Specialist >>> Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & >>> Development Department, Government of the Punjab >>> >>> A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan >>> T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) >>> F: 9213585 >>> M: 0345 455 6016 >>> Skype: halgazel >>> http://hghazali.googlepages.com >>> >>> *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >>> >> YAHOOGROUPS. >> >>> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss >>> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >>> The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot >>> post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes > >>> it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >>> >>> ================================================================ >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >>> countries (the 'Global South'). >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >> YAHOOGROUPS. >> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to >> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The >> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post > to >> the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem >> like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >> YAHOOGROUPS. >> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to > join >> the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups >> version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real >> sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). >> Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. >> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like > you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). >> >> > > > -- > -------------------------------------------- > > Todd Edelman > Director > Green Idea Factory > > Korunni 72 > CZ-10100 Praha 10 > Czech Republic > > Skype: toddedelman > ++420 605 915 970 > ++420 222 517 832 > > edelman@greenidea.eu > http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman > > Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network > www.worldcarfree.net > > CAR is over. If you WANT it. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot > post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site > makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From schipper at wri.org Fri Jan 25 00:12:59 2008 From: schipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:12:59 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime References: <003201c85e9a$7d7b8280$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C011EE1E8@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> I think Walter the problem is timing. If a cheap car races in and mesmerizes everyone BEFORE a truly sustainable collective system with good and well protected NMT is there, all is lost...If the entrance of the car is slowed down, and really mean much slower, I fear chaos will reign on streets. One doesn't have to ban it but one has to be sure one is charging for its reall costs imposed on local and global citizens. Lee Schipper EMBARQ Fellow EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net skype: mrmeter +1 510 642 6889 Cell +1 202 262 7476 -----Original Message----- From: Walter Hook [mailto:whook@itdp.org] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:05 AM To: 'Gina Anderson'; Lee Schipper Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime Gina, Nice to hear from you! Of course there is going to be a major problem, but there will be a problem whatever the price of the car, it will just manifest itself sooner with lower car prices. Mumbai was proposing banning the car. Well, if they proposed banning it for some safety or tailpipe emission reason, ok, but it is absurd to ban it because the cost is low. This is, however, the tendency in Asia, to simply ban vehicle categories. They also banned non motorized three wheelers, diesel buses, etc. In Guangzhou they just banned motorcycles. Some good results of this, and some bad ones. In my view, banning vehicles due to low cost is a bad idea and sets an absurd regulatory precedent. There is a general problem in India of using such blanket bans to make up for the general inability of government to regulate in a more sophisticated way. I am hoping that over time pressure from motorization might lead to the use of more sophisticated regulatory tools, like parking regulation, proper tailpipe regulation, road worthiness testing, etc. -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Gina Anderson Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:40 PM To: Lee Schipper Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime Thanks for setting some things out clearly Lee. Walter, your remarks seem a bit disingenuous. While theoretically there is no "problem" with an inexpensive car, I'm guessing you'd say there is a problem with government's ability/willingness to price parking/fuel/road use? to optimize efficient and equitable transport. But, the situation in most cities worldwide including Indian cities is that conventional mechanisms and pricing related to transport are in place. Introducing a cheap vehicle in such circumstances will clearly lead to worse levels of congestion in urban areas. I'm sure you know the term "super crush loading", which is a technical term that had to be coined to describe the level of service (LOS) on Indian commuter trains at peak times when passengers were hanging onto the outside of cars for their commute; certainly I made use of it when you were my thesis advisor 10 years or so back. Wouldn't a similar type of term need to be used to describe the LOS on roads in developing countries where motorization is expanding rapidly? Using the "theory of second best", meaning that the ideal solution is too difficult to reach (assuring sustainable transport by having "use" pricing that adequately promotes efficient modes, assuring all people can have their mobility needs met), the second best solution would have to be concerned with a very low cost car. It will skew the economics of transport decision-making and will cause worse mass congestion - and then truly only those with higher incomes will be able to get around. Gina Agarwal Anderson -- Regina Anderson, AICP WholeChoice Master Planning, Pedestrian Design, Sustainability Singapore phone +65 6467-6594 Quoting Lee Schipper : > Setty makes a fair point, but that's just the dilemma facing transport > everywhere. The time-space geographer Waerneryd used the problem in the > early 1970s -- only a car will connect all the tasks for those parents. > > The problem is that Waerneryd worked in Sweden, where even in the 1970s > the kinds of congestion Bangalore and other Indian cities have NOW was > unknown (and is still pretty mild). So an additional driver in Sweden > could pretty much count on connecting more dots with a car than with > collective transport. > > Steven Tyler studied Knivsta, a town n. of Stockholm on the main > railroad line and road to Uppsala. He wondered why so many people drove > to work? There were two answer -- one, tax policy permitted deduction > for commuting expenses, and a car could be deducted if it saved 1/2 > hour, and two, far more jobs were accessible by car than by mass transit > within a given amount of driving time. In the early 1970s Sweden had > the highest car ownership in Europe -- but it lost that lead to Germany, > Italy, and now even other countries. One reason may be the good mass > transit, i.e., that the number of people who really save money and time > driving to work maxed out. Local authorities are trying to do that all > over Scandinavia to reduce driving. Who is doing that in India, China, > or the US today? > > Sweden also pioneered green taxes. If you bought a "standard" car in the > 1990s you paid somewhat higher purchase taxes than if you bought one > that satisfied California's more demanding pollution norms. This eased > in a rapid transition away from leaded fuel (which cost more than > unleaded from the mid 1980s) and from "high" sulfur diesel (high > compared to the present <15 ppm in Sweden today, but well below Indian > levels!). > > Now let's consider an Indian city. The roads are already choked - some > will save time as above if they now drive to where they have to go. But > how much time (and pollution) will everyone else suffer? Is the balance > the same as in Sweden (or if you will, the US, where the AVERAGE commute > is still under 25 minutes, albeit with a clear tail)? Stockholm recently > opted for a congesting charging scheme to try to ration better the > available space on the limited number of bridges and other ways into > town. Could or should Indian cities do the same? Should they start NOW > before decisions about car ownership and housing are made, or after, as > Stockholm did? Congestion charging may not be the ideal mechanism for > India, but it has helped achieve a better balance on crowded roads in > Stockholm, London, and for many years Singapore > > So Setty, the question is not whether the family you describe is right > or wrong, rather, what policy package would put them in a position to > consider ALL costs not just their own gains in time? And what mechanisms > are appropriate for ALL cities to achieve a better balance between > individual and collective traffic? It seems to me that if motorizing > cities act first to strengthen collective transport, strengthen and > enforce emissions and fuel norms, and establish a clear tradition that > everyone pays for the costs he/she imposes on others (congestion, noise, > air pollution etc) > > I wish I knew the answer. Unfortunately even the so called leader of the > Free Market, the US, can't seem to wrap its mind around the Swedish > approach. Which one will India choose? > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > and > Visiting Scholar > UC Transportation Center > Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > +1 510 642 6889 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of Pendakur > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:16 AM > To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility > orMobilizing Crime > > It would be good if all the people who have sent in discussions on the > "smart Tata car", to place themselves in the position of a person, say > in Bangalore (india), who has two children and a spouse, all going to > different destinations. Even though the bus system is ok in Banaglore, > compared to other cities in India, it would take this family a great > deal of time and money to reach their destinations,. In addition, all > four destinations (2 schools and 2 work places) are farther apart. This > smart car is a boon to this family. It will cut their travel time in > half and provide a safer vehicle than the motor cycle they use now. > > Eloquence is good (criminalizing mobility) but empty eloquence from a > distance is rarely of any significance. > > Cheers. > > Setty > Dr. V. Setty Pendakur > Professor Emeritus, University of BC > Honorary Professor, China National Academy of Sciences; Director, ITDP > (NY) & Secretary, ABE90-TRB > > President, Pacific Policy and Planning Associates > 702- 1099 Marinaside Cresecent, Vancouver, BC Canada V6Z 2Z3 > 604-263-3576; Fax: 604-263-6493 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: > sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc > .org > ] On Behalf Of Walter Hook > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:45 AM > To: edelman@greenidea.eu > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime > > Todd > > People in developing countries still face significant mobility > constraints, and for them low cost vehicles are a boon. A motorbike, a > motorized three wheeler, a car, these things may be an economic lifeline > to a relatively poor family. > > Ownership without use poses relatively minor social problems, so what is > the problem with a cheap car? The social problems are primarily > associated with use, so it is primarily the cost of the use of vehicles > that needs to be increased to reflect the true social cost, not the > ownership of the vehicle. > > The optimal cost of the car is the cost it takes to make a car someone > wants safely that meets all the regulatory requirements. With China and > India becoming big producers and mechanization proceeding apace, the > price of motor vehicles in real terms is likely to fall over time. All > manufactured goods fall in price. Falling consumer prices are in > general a sign of progress. Less of society's labor required to produce > the vehicle, leaves money to spend on something else. > > However, what is never going to fall in price is the value of downtown > real estate, including the value of road space in desirable locations. > There is only one Greenwich Village in Manhattan, and on streets with > extremely expensive real estate parking is absolutely free. Of course > the result is that there is virtually no parking available, and most of > this valuable real estate ends up being used as a car storage facility > for local residents and shop owners. This is completely crazy, and > people are slowly waking up to this madness. > > What is also unlikely to fall in price is oil. Hence, over time the use > of vehicles is going to increase in price, and the cost of ownership > decrease in relative terms. > > It is not impossible to imagine that at some point cars, like cell > phones, will be practically given away for free in order to sell much > more expensive services related to them, like parking, oil, whatever. > With Zip Car, you don't need to own the vehicle at all, you are mainly > paying for the garaging and gasoline and vehicle maintenance. The > replacement cost of the vehicle is relatively minor. One can imagine > that you could pay so much for a parking slot in a garage that the > garage eventually will throw in the use of the car for free. > > It seems to me an exercise in futility and risks sounding elitist to > complain about the low cost of vehicles when the social problem lies > elsewhere. > > w > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:33 PM > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime > > Hi Walter, > > Walter Hook wrote: >> I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't >> think > that >> the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem. > OK >> If the vehicle >> is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe >> emission standards, those are serious social problems. > YES >> Other than this, it is great >> if the cost of vehicles goes down. > WHY? >> However, it will create pressure on the governments to charge prices > >> that more accurately reflect the full social cost of the use of the >> vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road user charges. > COULD you explain this, please? > >> Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive >> ones. I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it > wasn't >> picked up. >> > THANKS, > T > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf >> Of Lee Schipper >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM >> To: bruun@seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime >> >> WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show, >> today which you >> Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems as I know where >> there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita Roychowdry of CSE >> and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and there were call ins >> as well. >> >> lee >> >> >> Lee Schipper >> EMBARQ Fellow >> EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport >> www.embarq.wri.org >> and >> Visiting Scholar >> UC Transportation Center >> Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net >> skype: mrmeter >> +1 510 642 6889 >> Cell +1 202 262 7476 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On >> Behalf Of bruun@seas.upenn.edu >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM >> To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing >> Crime >> >> Hassaan >> >> The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is >> going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and >> livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about >> fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. >> >> One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to >> pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists > themselves >> in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to >> them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a > very >> lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of > their >> users as well, and bring the ratio up. >> >> This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people >> haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well > known, >> is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. >> Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within >> many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause >> many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5 >> percent auto ownership. >> >> On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right > that >> the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's > government >> works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be >> working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as >> possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other >> people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be >> class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. >> >> Eric Bruun >> >> >> >> >> Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : >> >> >>> Friends, >>> >>> There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line >>> every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting >>> and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's >>> mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to >>> see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I >>> don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart > >>> car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably >>> one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and >>> Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the >>> developed and developing world create the context to despise such an >>> >> incredible product? >> >>> Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the >>> masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole >>> suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory > >>> oversight, >>> etc.) are also provided. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Hassaan >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Institutional Development Specialist >>> Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & >>> Development Department, Government of the Punjab >>> >>> A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan >>> T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) >>> F: 9213585 >>> M: 0345 455 6016 >>> Skype: halgazel >>> http://hghazali.googlepages.com >>> >>> *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >>> >> YAHOOGROUPS. >> >>> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss >>> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >>> The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot >>> post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes > >>> it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >>> >>> ================================================================ >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >>> countries (the 'Global South'). >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >> YAHOOGROUPS. >> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to >> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The >> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post > to >> the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem >> like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >> YAHOOGROUPS. >> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to > join >> the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups >> version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real >> sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). >> Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. >> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like > you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). >> >> > > > -- > -------------------------------------------- > > Todd Edelman > Director > Green Idea Factory > > Korunni 72 > CZ-10100 Praha 10 > Czech Republic > > Skype: toddedelman > ++420 605 915 970 > ++420 222 517 832 > > edelman@greenidea.eu > http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman > > Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network > www.worldcarfree.net > > CAR is over. If you WANT it. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot > post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site > makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From whook at itdp.org Fri Jan 25 00:23:01 2008 From: whook at itdp.org (Walter Hook) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:23:01 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime In-Reply-To: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C011EE1E8@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Message-ID: <003d01c85e9d$02d06f70$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> So what are you proposing? Banning them? If there are safety and tailpile grounds to single out this vehicle, ok, then the case should be articulated in that way. But I think this is hyperbole. You can already get dirt cheap motorbikes, you can already use dirt cheap three wheelers, dirt cheap used Ambassadors which probably cost roughly the same and are probably as good value for money, traffic is already chaos in some places. -----Original Message----- From: Lee Schipper [mailto:schipper@wri.org] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:13 AM To: Walter Hook; Gina Anderson Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom; anumita@cseindia.org Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime I think Walter the problem is timing. If a cheap car races in and mesmerizes everyone BEFORE a truly sustainable collective system with good and well protected NMT is there, all is lost...If the entrance of the car is slowed down, and really mean much slower, I fear chaos will reign on streets. One doesn't have to ban it but one has to be sure one is charging for its reall costs imposed on local and global citizens. Lee Schipper EMBARQ Fellow EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net skype: mrmeter +1 510 642 6889 Cell +1 202 262 7476 -----Original Message----- From: Walter Hook [mailto:whook@itdp.org] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:05 AM To: 'Gina Anderson'; Lee Schipper Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime Gina, Nice to hear from you! Of course there is going to be a major problem, but there will be a problem whatever the price of the car, it will just manifest itself sooner with lower car prices. Mumbai was proposing banning the car. Well, if they proposed banning it for some safety or tailpipe emission reason, ok, but it is absurd to ban it because the cost is low. This is, however, the tendency in Asia, to simply ban vehicle categories. They also banned non motorized three wheelers, diesel buses, etc. In Guangzhou they just banned motorcycles. Some good results of this, and some bad ones. In my view, banning vehicles due to low cost is a bad idea and sets an absurd regulatory precedent. There is a general problem in India of using such blanket bans to make up for the general inability of government to regulate in a more sophisticated way. I am hoping that over time pressure from motorization might lead to the use of more sophisticated regulatory tools, like parking regulation, proper tailpipe regulation, road worthiness testing, etc. -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Gina Anderson Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:40 PM To: Lee Schipper Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime Thanks for setting some things out clearly Lee. Walter, your remarks seem a bit disingenuous. While theoretically there is no "problem" with an inexpensive car, I'm guessing you'd say there is a problem with government's ability/willingness to price parking/fuel/road use? to optimize efficient and equitable transport. But, the situation in most cities worldwide including Indian cities is that conventional mechanisms and pricing related to transport are in place. Introducing a cheap vehicle in such circumstances will clearly lead to worse levels of congestion in urban areas. I'm sure you know the term "super crush loading", which is a technical term that had to be coined to describe the level of service (LOS) on Indian commuter trains at peak times when passengers were hanging onto the outside of cars for their commute; certainly I made use of it when you were my thesis advisor 10 years or so back. Wouldn't a similar type of term need to be used to describe the LOS on roads in developing countries where motorization is expanding rapidly? Using the "theory of second best", meaning that the ideal solution is too difficult to reach (assuring sustainable transport by having "use" pricing that adequately promotes efficient modes, assuring all people can have their mobility needs met), the second best solution would have to be concerned with a very low cost car. It will skew the economics of transport decision-making and will cause worse mass congestion - and then truly only those with higher incomes will be able to get around. Gina Agarwal Anderson -- Regina Anderson, AICP WholeChoice Master Planning, Pedestrian Design, Sustainability Singapore phone +65 6467-6594 Quoting Lee Schipper : > Setty makes a fair point, but that's just the dilemma facing transport > everywhere. The time-space geographer Waerneryd used the problem in the > early 1970s -- only a car will connect all the tasks for those parents. > > The problem is that Waerneryd worked in Sweden, where even in the 1970s > the kinds of congestion Bangalore and other Indian cities have NOW was > unknown (and is still pretty mild). So an additional driver in Sweden > could pretty much count on connecting more dots with a car than with > collective transport. > > Steven Tyler studied Knivsta, a town n. of Stockholm on the main > railroad line and road to Uppsala. He wondered why so many people drove > to work? There were two answer -- one, tax policy permitted deduction > for commuting expenses, and a car could be deducted if it saved 1/2 > hour, and two, far more jobs were accessible by car than by mass transit > within a given amount of driving time. In the early 1970s Sweden had > the highest car ownership in Europe -- but it lost that lead to Germany, > Italy, and now even other countries. One reason may be the good mass > transit, i.e., that the number of people who really save money and time > driving to work maxed out. Local authorities are trying to do that all > over Scandinavia to reduce driving. Who is doing that in India, China, > or the US today? > > Sweden also pioneered green taxes. If you bought a "standard" car in the > 1990s you paid somewhat higher purchase taxes than if you bought one > that satisfied California's more demanding pollution norms. This eased > in a rapid transition away from leaded fuel (which cost more than > unleaded from the mid 1980s) and from "high" sulfur diesel (high > compared to the present <15 ppm in Sweden today, but well below Indian > levels!). > > Now let's consider an Indian city. The roads are already choked - some > will save time as above if they now drive to where they have to go. But > how much time (and pollution) will everyone else suffer? Is the balance > the same as in Sweden (or if you will, the US, where the AVERAGE commute > is still under 25 minutes, albeit with a clear tail)? Stockholm recently > opted for a congesting charging scheme to try to ration better the > available space on the limited number of bridges and other ways into > town. Could or should Indian cities do the same? Should they start NOW > before decisions about car ownership and housing are made, or after, as > Stockholm did? Congestion charging may not be the ideal mechanism for > India, but it has helped achieve a better balance on crowded roads in > Stockholm, London, and for many years Singapore > > So Setty, the question is not whether the family you describe is right > or wrong, rather, what policy package would put them in a position to > consider ALL costs not just their own gains in time? And what mechanisms > are appropriate for ALL cities to achieve a better balance between > individual and collective traffic? It seems to me that if motorizing > cities act first to strengthen collective transport, strengthen and > enforce emissions and fuel norms, and establish a clear tradition that > everyone pays for the costs he/she imposes on others (congestion, noise, > air pollution etc) > > I wish I knew the answer. Unfortunately even the so called leader of the > Free Market, the US, can't seem to wrap its mind around the Swedish > approach. Which one will India choose? > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > and > Visiting Scholar > UC Transportation Center > Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > +1 510 642 6889 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of Pendakur > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:16 AM > To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility > orMobilizing Crime > > It would be good if all the people who have sent in discussions on the > "smart Tata car", to place themselves in the position of a person, say > in Bangalore (india), who has two children and a spouse, all going to > different destinations. Even though the bus system is ok in Banaglore, > compared to other cities in India, it would take this family a great > deal of time and money to reach their destinations,. In addition, all > four destinations (2 schools and 2 work places) are farther apart. This > smart car is a boon to this family. It will cut their travel time in > half and provide a safer vehicle than the motor cycle they use now. > > Eloquence is good (criminalizing mobility) but empty eloquence from a > distance is rarely of any significance. > > Cheers. > > Setty > Dr. V. Setty Pendakur > Professor Emeritus, University of BC > Honorary Professor, China National Academy of Sciences; Director, ITDP > (NY) & Secretary, ABE90-TRB > > President, Pacific Policy and Planning Associates > 702- 1099 Marinaside Cresecent, Vancouver, BC Canada V6Z 2Z3 > 604-263-3576; Fax: 604-263-6493 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: > sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc > .org > ] On Behalf Of Walter Hook > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:45 AM > To: edelman@greenidea.eu > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime > > Todd > > People in developing countries still face significant mobility > constraints, and for them low cost vehicles are a boon. A motorbike, a > motorized three wheeler, a car, these things may be an economic lifeline > to a relatively poor family. > > Ownership without use poses relatively minor social problems, so what is > the problem with a cheap car? The social problems are primarily > associated with use, so it is primarily the cost of the use of vehicles > that needs to be increased to reflect the true social cost, not the > ownership of the vehicle. > > The optimal cost of the car is the cost it takes to make a car someone > wants safely that meets all the regulatory requirements. With China and > India becoming big producers and mechanization proceeding apace, the > price of motor vehicles in real terms is likely to fall over time. All > manufactured goods fall in price. Falling consumer prices are in > general a sign of progress. Less of society's labor required to produce > the vehicle, leaves money to spend on something else. > > However, what is never going to fall in price is the value of downtown > real estate, including the value of road space in desirable locations. > There is only one Greenwich Village in Manhattan, and on streets with > extremely expensive real estate parking is absolutely free. Of course > the result is that there is virtually no parking available, and most of > this valuable real estate ends up being used as a car storage facility > for local residents and shop owners. This is completely crazy, and > people are slowly waking up to this madness. > > What is also unlikely to fall in price is oil. Hence, over time the use > of vehicles is going to increase in price, and the cost of ownership > decrease in relative terms. > > It is not impossible to imagine that at some point cars, like cell > phones, will be practically given away for free in order to sell much > more expensive services related to them, like parking, oil, whatever. > With Zip Car, you don't need to own the vehicle at all, you are mainly > paying for the garaging and gasoline and vehicle maintenance. The > replacement cost of the vehicle is relatively minor. One can imagine > that you could pay so much for a parking slot in a garage that the > garage eventually will throw in the use of the car for free. > > It seems to me an exercise in futility and risks sounding elitist to > complain about the low cost of vehicles when the social problem lies > elsewhere. > > w > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:33 PM > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime > > Hi Walter, > > Walter Hook wrote: >> I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't >> think > that >> the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem. > OK >> If the vehicle >> is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe >> emission standards, those are serious social problems. > YES >> Other than this, it is great >> if the cost of vehicles goes down. > WHY? >> However, it will create pressure on the governments to charge prices > >> that more accurately reflect the full social cost of the use of the >> vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road user charges. > COULD you explain this, please? > >> Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive >> ones. I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it > wasn't >> picked up. >> > THANKS, > T > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf >> Of Lee Schipper >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM >> To: bruun@seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime >> >> WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show, >> today which you >> Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems as I know where >> there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita Roychowdry of CSE >> and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and there were call ins >> as well. >> >> lee >> >> >> Lee Schipper >> EMBARQ Fellow >> EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport >> www.embarq.wri.org >> and >> Visiting Scholar >> UC Transportation Center >> Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net >> skype: mrmeter >> +1 510 642 6889 >> Cell +1 202 262 7476 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On >> Behalf Of bruun@seas.upenn.edu >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM >> To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing >> Crime >> >> Hassaan >> >> The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is >> going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and >> livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about >> fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. >> >> One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to >> pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists > themselves >> in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to >> them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a > very >> lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of > their >> users as well, and bring the ratio up. >> >> This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people >> haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well > known, >> is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. >> Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within >> many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause >> many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5 >> percent auto ownership. >> >> On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right > that >> the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's > government >> works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be >> working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as >> possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other >> people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be >> class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. >> >> Eric Bruun >> >> >> >> >> Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : >> >> >>> Friends, >>> >>> There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line >>> every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting >>> and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's >>> mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to >>> see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I >>> don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart > >>> car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably >>> one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and >>> Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the >>> developed and developing world create the context to despise such an >>> >> incredible product? >> >>> Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the >>> masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole >>> suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory > >>> oversight, >>> etc.) are also provided. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Hassaan >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Institutional Development Specialist >>> Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & >>> Development Department, Government of the Punjab >>> >>> A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan >>> T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) >>> F: 9213585 >>> M: 0345 455 6016 >>> Skype: halgazel >>> http://hghazali.googlepages.com >>> >>> *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >>> >> YAHOOGROUPS. >> >>> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss >>> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >>> The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot >>> post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes > >>> it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >>> >>> ================================================================ >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >>> countries (the 'Global South'). >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >> YAHOOGROUPS. >> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to >> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The >> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post > to >> the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem >> like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >> YAHOOGROUPS. >> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to > join >> the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups >> version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real >> sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). >> Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. >> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like > you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). >> >> > > > -- > -------------------------------------------- > > Todd Edelman > Director > Green Idea Factory > > Korunni 72 > CZ-10100 Praha 10 > Czech Republic > > Skype: toddedelman > ++420 605 915 970 > ++420 222 517 832 > > edelman@greenidea.eu > http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman > > Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network > www.worldcarfree.net > > CAR is over. If you WANT it. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot > post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site > makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From schipper at wri.org Fri Jan 25 00:40:10 2008 From: schipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:40:10 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime References: <003d01c85e9d$02d06f70$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C011EE269@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Anumita, what do you say? Sounds like we're between a piece of rubber and a spare tyre Lee Schipper EMBARQ Fellow EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net skype: mrmeter +1 510 642 6889 Cell +1 202 262 7476 -----Original Message----- From: Walter Hook [mailto:whook@itdp.org] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:23 AM To: Lee Schipper; 'Gina Anderson' Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom; anumita@cseindia.org Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime So what are you proposing? Banning them? If there are safety and tailpile grounds to single out this vehicle, ok, then the case should be articulated in that way. But I think this is hyperbole. You can already get dirt cheap motorbikes, you can already use dirt cheap three wheelers, dirt cheap used Ambassadors which probably cost roughly the same and are probably as good value for money, traffic is already chaos in some places. -----Original Message----- From: Lee Schipper [mailto:schipper@wri.org] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:13 AM To: Walter Hook; Gina Anderson Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom; anumita@cseindia.org Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime I think Walter the problem is timing. If a cheap car races in and mesmerizes everyone BEFORE a truly sustainable collective system with good and well protected NMT is there, all is lost...If the entrance of the car is slowed down, and really mean much slower, I fear chaos will reign on streets. One doesn't have to ban it but one has to be sure one is charging for its reall costs imposed on local and global citizens. Lee Schipper EMBARQ Fellow EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net skype: mrmeter +1 510 642 6889 Cell +1 202 262 7476 -----Original Message----- From: Walter Hook [mailto:whook@itdp.org] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:05 AM To: 'Gina Anderson'; Lee Schipper Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime Gina, Nice to hear from you! Of course there is going to be a major problem, but there will be a problem whatever the price of the car, it will just manifest itself sooner with lower car prices. Mumbai was proposing banning the car. Well, if they proposed banning it for some safety or tailpipe emission reason, ok, but it is absurd to ban it because the cost is low. This is, however, the tendency in Asia, to simply ban vehicle categories. They also banned non motorized three wheelers, diesel buses, etc. In Guangzhou they just banned motorcycles. Some good results of this, and some bad ones. In my view, banning vehicles due to low cost is a bad idea and sets an absurd regulatory precedent. There is a general problem in India of using such blanket bans to make up for the general inability of government to regulate in a more sophisticated way. I am hoping that over time pressure from motorization might lead to the use of more sophisticated regulatory tools, like parking regulation, proper tailpipe regulation, road worthiness testing, etc. -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Gina Anderson Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:40 PM To: Lee Schipper Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime Thanks for setting some things out clearly Lee. Walter, your remarks seem a bit disingenuous. While theoretically there is no "problem" with an inexpensive car, I'm guessing you'd say there is a problem with government's ability/willingness to price parking/fuel/road use? to optimize efficient and equitable transport. But, the situation in most cities worldwide including Indian cities is that conventional mechanisms and pricing related to transport are in place. Introducing a cheap vehicle in such circumstances will clearly lead to worse levels of congestion in urban areas. I'm sure you know the term "super crush loading", which is a technical term that had to be coined to describe the level of service (LOS) on Indian commuter trains at peak times when passengers were hanging onto the outside of cars for their commute; certainly I made use of it when you were my thesis advisor 10 years or so back. Wouldn't a similar type of term need to be used to describe the LOS on roads in developing countries where motorization is expanding rapidly? Using the "theory of second best", meaning that the ideal solution is too difficult to reach (assuring sustainable transport by having "use" pricing that adequately promotes efficient modes, assuring all people can have their mobility needs met), the second best solution would have to be concerned with a very low cost car. It will skew the economics of transport decision-making and will cause worse mass congestion - and then truly only those with higher incomes will be able to get around. Gina Agarwal Anderson -- Regina Anderson, AICP WholeChoice Master Planning, Pedestrian Design, Sustainability Singapore phone +65 6467-6594 Quoting Lee Schipper : > Setty makes a fair point, but that's just the dilemma facing transport > everywhere. The time-space geographer Waerneryd used the problem in the > early 1970s -- only a car will connect all the tasks for those parents. > > The problem is that Waerneryd worked in Sweden, where even in the 1970s > the kinds of congestion Bangalore and other Indian cities have NOW was > unknown (and is still pretty mild). So an additional driver in Sweden > could pretty much count on connecting more dots with a car than with > collective transport. > > Steven Tyler studied Knivsta, a town n. of Stockholm on the main > railroad line and road to Uppsala. He wondered why so many people drove > to work? There were two answer -- one, tax policy permitted deduction > for commuting expenses, and a car could be deducted if it saved 1/2 > hour, and two, far more jobs were accessible by car than by mass transit > within a given amount of driving time. In the early 1970s Sweden had > the highest car ownership in Europe -- but it lost that lead to Germany, > Italy, and now even other countries. One reason may be the good mass > transit, i.e., that the number of people who really save money and time > driving to work maxed out. Local authorities are trying to do that all > over Scandinavia to reduce driving. Who is doing that in India, China, > or the US today? > > Sweden also pioneered green taxes. If you bought a "standard" car in the > 1990s you paid somewhat higher purchase taxes than if you bought one > that satisfied California's more demanding pollution norms. This eased > in a rapid transition away from leaded fuel (which cost more than > unleaded from the mid 1980s) and from "high" sulfur diesel (high > compared to the present <15 ppm in Sweden today, but well below Indian > levels!). > > Now let's consider an Indian city. The roads are already choked - some > will save time as above if they now drive to where they have to go. But > how much time (and pollution) will everyone else suffer? Is the balance > the same as in Sweden (or if you will, the US, where the AVERAGE commute > is still under 25 minutes, albeit with a clear tail)? Stockholm recently > opted for a congesting charging scheme to try to ration better the > available space on the limited number of bridges and other ways into > town. Could or should Indian cities do the same? Should they start NOW > before decisions about car ownership and housing are made, or after, as > Stockholm did? Congestion charging may not be the ideal mechanism for > India, but it has helped achieve a better balance on crowded roads in > Stockholm, London, and for many years Singapore > > So Setty, the question is not whether the family you describe is right > or wrong, rather, what policy package would put them in a position to > consider ALL costs not just their own gains in time? And what mechanisms > are appropriate for ALL cities to achieve a better balance between > individual and collective traffic? It seems to me that if motorizing > cities act first to strengthen collective transport, strengthen and > enforce emissions and fuel norms, and establish a clear tradition that > everyone pays for the costs he/she imposes on others (congestion, noise, > air pollution etc) > > I wish I knew the answer. Unfortunately even the so called leader of the > Free Market, the US, can't seem to wrap its mind around the Swedish > approach. Which one will India choose? > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org > and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA > www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > +1 510 642 6889 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of Pendakur > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:16 AM > To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility > orMobilizing Crime > > It would be good if all the people who have sent in discussions on the > "smart Tata car", to place themselves in the position of a person, say > in Bangalore (india), who has two children and a spouse, all going to > different destinations. Even though the bus system is ok in Banaglore, > compared to other cities in India, it would take this family a great > deal of time and money to reach their destinations,. In addition, all > four destinations (2 schools and 2 work places) are farther apart. This > smart car is a boon to this family. It will cut their travel time in > half and provide a safer vehicle than the motor cycle they use now. > > Eloquence is good (criminalizing mobility) but empty eloquence from a > distance is rarely of any significance. > > Cheers. > > Setty > Dr. V. Setty Pendakur > Professor Emeritus, University of BC > Honorary Professor, China National Academy of Sciences; Director, ITDP > (NY) & Secretary, ABE90-TRB > > President, Pacific Policy and Planning Associates > 702- 1099 Marinaside Cresecent, Vancouver, BC Canada V6Z 2Z3 > 604-263-3576; Fax: 604-263-6493 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: > sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc > .org > ] On Behalf Of Walter Hook > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:45 AM > To: edelman@greenidea.eu > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime > > Todd > > People in developing countries still face significant mobility > constraints, and for them low cost vehicles are a boon. A motorbike, a > motorized three wheeler, a car, these things may be an economic lifeline > to a relatively poor family. > > Ownership without use poses relatively minor social problems, so what is > the problem with a cheap car? The social problems are primarily > associated with use, so it is primarily the cost of the use of vehicles > that needs to be increased to reflect the true social cost, not the > ownership of the vehicle. > > The optimal cost of the car is the cost it takes to make a car someone > wants safely that meets all the regulatory requirements. With China and > India becoming big producers and mechanization proceeding apace, the > price of motor vehicles in real terms is likely to fall over time. All > manufactured goods fall in price. Falling consumer prices are in > general a sign of progress. Less of society's labor required to produce > the vehicle, leaves money to spend on something else. > > However, what is never going to fall in price is the value of downtown > real estate, including the value of road space in desirable locations. > There is only one Greenwich Village in Manhattan, and on streets with > extremely expensive real estate parking is absolutely free. Of course > the result is that there is virtually no parking available, and most of > this valuable real estate ends up being used as a car storage facility > for local residents and shop owners. This is completely crazy, and > people are slowly waking up to this madness. > > What is also unlikely to fall in price is oil. Hence, over time the use > of vehicles is going to increase in price, and the cost of ownership > decrease in relative terms. > > It is not impossible to imagine that at some point cars, like cell > phones, will be practically given away for free in order to sell much > more expensive services related to them, like parking, oil, whatever. > With Zip Car, you don't need to own the vehicle at all, you are mainly > paying for the garaging and gasoline and vehicle maintenance. The > replacement cost of the vehicle is relatively minor. One can imagine > that you could pay so much for a parking slot in a garage that the > garage eventually will throw in the use of the car for free. > > It seems to me an exercise in futility and risks sounding elitist to > complain about the low cost of vehicles when the social problem lies > elsewhere. > > w > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:33 PM > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime > > Hi Walter, > > Walter Hook wrote: >> I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't >> think > that >> the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem. > OK >> If the vehicle >> is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe >> emission standards, those are serious social problems. > YES >> Other than this, it is great >> if the cost of vehicles goes down. > WHY? >> However, it will create pressure on the governments to charge prices > >> that more accurately reflect the full social cost of the use of the >> vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road user charges. > COULD you explain this, please? > >> Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive ones. >> I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it > wasn't >> picked up. >> > THANKS, > T > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf >> Of Lee Schipper >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM >> To: bruun@seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > Crime >> >> WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show, >> today which you Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems >> as I know where there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita >> Roychowdry of CSE and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and >> there were call ins >> as well. >> >> lee >> >> >> Lee Schipper >> EMBARQ Fellow >> EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org >> and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA >> www.uctc.net >> skype: mrmeter >> +1 510 642 6889 >> Cell +1 202 262 7476 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On >> Behalf Of bruun@seas.upenn.edu >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM >> To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing >> Crime >> >> Hassaan >> >> The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is >> going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and >> livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about >> fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. >> >> One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to >> pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists > themselves >> in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to >> them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a > very >> lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of > their >> users as well, and bring the ratio up. >> >> This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people >> haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well > known, >> is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. >> Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within >> many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause >> many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5 >> percent auto ownership. >> >> On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right > that >> the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's > government >> works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be >> working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as >> possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other >> people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be >> class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. >> >> Eric Bruun >> >> >> >> >> Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : >> >> >>> Friends, >>> >>> There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line >>> every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting >>> and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's >>> mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to >>> see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I >>> don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart > >>> car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably >>> one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and >>> Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the >>> developed and developing world create the context to despise such an >>> >> incredible product? >> >>> Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the >>> masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole >>> suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory > >>> oversight, >>> etc.) are also provided. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Hassaan >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Institutional Development Specialist Urban Sector Policy and >>> Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & Development Department, >>> Government of the Punjab >>> >>> A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan >>> T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) >>> F: 9213585 >>> M: 0345 455 6016 >>> Skype: halgazel >>> http://hghazali.googlepages.com >>> >>> *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >>> >> YAHOOGROUPS. >> >>> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss >>> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >>> The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot >>> post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes > >>> it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >>> >>> ================================================================ >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >>> countries (the 'Global South'). >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >> YAHOOGROUPS. >> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to >> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The >> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post > to >> the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem >> like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >> YAHOOGROUPS. >> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to > join >> the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups >> version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real >> sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). >> Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. >> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like > you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). >> >> > > > -- > -------------------------------------------- > > Todd Edelman > Director > Green Idea Factory > > Korunni 72 > CZ-10100 Praha 10 > Czech Republic > > Skype: toddedelman > ++420 605 915 970 > ++420 222 517 832 > > edelman@greenidea.eu > http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman > > Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network > www.worldcarfree.net > > CAR is over. If you WANT it. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot > post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes > it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From schipper at wri.org Fri Jan 25 00:41:41 2008 From: schipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:41:41 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime References: <003d01c85e9d$02d06f70$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> <4798AF52.5030208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C011EE26D@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> thanks Carlos -- mi faltan las palabres! And greetings from Stockholm, where the discussion continues tomorrow (friday) as part of David Bauner's Thesis defense, for which I am the "opponent". This issue will come up. Lee Schipper EMBARQ Fellow EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net skype: mrmeter +1 510 642 6889 Cell +1 202 262 7476 ________________________________ From: Carlosfelipe Pardo [mailto:carlosfpardo@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:32 AM To: Walter Hook Cc: Lee Schipper; 'Gina Anderson'; anumita@cseindia.org; Rhys Thom; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime So we would have to really work on convincing government (Indian and others... even Colombians are now saving for the Nano, which is predicted to be here in a year or two) so that pricing for vehicle use is adequate: road pricing, parking policies, etc. That way, citizens wil find that using a vehicle is not as cheap as just buying it. If the charges for using the vehicle are invested in proper public transport, etc, people may think "hey, using the car is just too expensive, I'll take the (improved) bus today". I think Walter's point on regulation is fair and very useful to take into account. If the industry thrives on the cheapness of a new vehicle, it's because the government hasn't been able to properly regulate the industry and costs are not reflected. If the Nano is sold in Singapore, I think the final cost of just buying it would be approx 7500 USD. And using it every day to go to the CBD would also reflect true costs. So it's our job to work on the regulations, while industry works on the vehicle itself. Maybe production of the Nano has less carbon emissions than other vehicles? (SUVs, at least, must be much more carbon emitting...). Carlosfelipe Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 Bogot? D.C., Colombia Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org Walter Hook wrote: So what are you proposing? Banning them? If there are safety and tailpile grounds to single out this vehicle, ok, then the case should be articulated in that way. But I think this is hyperbole. You can already get dirt cheap motorbikes, you can already use dirt cheap three wheelers, dirt cheap used Ambassadors which probably cost roughly the same and are probably as good value for money, traffic is already chaos in some places. -----Original Message----- From: Lee Schipper [mailto:schipper@wri.org] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:13 AM To: Walter Hook; Gina Anderson Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom; anumita@cseindia.org Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime I think Walter the problem is timing. If a cheap car races in and mesmerizes everyone BEFORE a truly sustainable collective system with good and well protected NMT is there, all is lost...If the entrance of the car is slowed down, and really mean much slower, I fear chaos will reign on streets. One doesn't have to ban it but one has to be sure one is charging for its reall costs imposed on local and global citizens. Lee Schipper EMBARQ Fellow EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net skype: mrmeter +1 510 642 6889 Cell +1 202 262 7476 -----Original Message----- From: Walter Hook [mailto:whook@itdp.org] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:05 AM To: 'Gina Anderson'; Lee Schipper Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime Gina, Nice to hear from you! Of course there is going to be a major problem, but there will be a problem whatever the price of the car, it will just manifest itself sooner with lower car prices. Mumbai was proposing banning the car. Well, if they proposed banning it for some safety or tailpipe emission reason, ok, but it is absurd to ban it because the cost is low. This is, however, the tendency in Asia, to simply ban vehicle categories. They also banned non motorized three wheelers, diesel buses, etc. In Guangzhou they just banned motorcycles. Some good results of this, and some bad ones. In my view, banning vehicles due to low cost is a bad idea and sets an absurd regulatory precedent. There is a general problem in India of using such blanket bans to make up for the general inability of government to regulate in a more sophisticated way. I am hoping that over time pressure from motorization might lead to the use of more sophisticated regulatory tools, like parking regulation, proper tailpipe regulation, road worthiness testing, etc. -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Gina Anderson Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:40 PM To: Lee Schipper Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime Thanks for setting some things out clearly Lee. Walter, your remarks seem a bit disingenuous. While theoretically there is no "problem" with an inexpensive car, I'm guessing you'd say there is a problem with government's ability/willingness to price parking/fuel/road use? to optimize efficient and equitable transport. But, the situation in most cities worldwide including Indian cities is that conventional mechanisms and pricing related to transport are in place. Introducing a cheap vehicle in such circumstances will clearly lead to worse levels of congestion in urban areas. I'm sure you know the term "super crush loading", which is a technical term that had to be coined to describe the level of service (LOS) on Indian commuter trains at peak times when passengers were hanging onto the outside of cars for their commute; certainly I made use of it when you were my thesis advisor 10 years or so back. Wouldn't a similar type of term need to be used to describe the LOS on roads in developing countries where motorization is expanding rapidly? Using the "theory of second best", meaning that the ideal solution is too difficult to reach (assuring sustainable transport by having "use" pricing that adequately promotes efficient modes, assuring all people can have their mobility needs met), the second best solution would have to be concerned with a very low cost car. It will skew the economics of transport decision-making and will cause worse mass congestion - and then truly only those with higher incomes will be able to get around. Gina Agarwal Anderson -- Regina Anderson, AICP WholeChoice Master Planning, Pedestrian Design, Sustainability Singapore phone +65 6467-6594 Quoting Lee Schipper : Setty makes a fair point, but that's just the dilemma facing transport everywhere. The time-space geographer Waerneryd used the problem in the early 1970s -- only a car will connect all the tasks for those parents. The problem is that Waerneryd worked in Sweden, where even in the 1970s the kinds of congestion Bangalore and other Indian cities have NOW was unknown (and is still pretty mild). So an additional driver in Sweden could pretty much count on connecting more dots with a car than with collective transport. Steven Tyler studied Knivsta, a town n. of Stockholm on the main railroad line and road to Uppsala. He wondered why so many people drove to work? There were two answer -- one, tax policy permitted deduction for commuting expenses, and a car could be deducted if it saved 1/2 hour, and two, far more jobs were accessible by car than by mass transit within a given amount of driving time. In the early 1970s Sweden had the highest car ownership in Europe -- but it lost that lead to Germany, Italy, and now even other countries. One reason may be the good mass transit, i.e., that the number of people who really save money and time driving to work maxed out. Local authorities are trying to do that all over Scandinavia to reduce driving. Who is doing that in India, China, or the US today? Sweden also pioneered green taxes. If you bought a "standard" car in the 1990s you paid somewhat higher purchase taxes than if you bought one that satisfied California's more demanding pollution norms. This eased in a rapid transition away from leaded fuel (which cost more than unleaded from the mid 1980s) and from "high" sulfur diesel (high compared to the present <15 ppm in Sweden today, but well below Indian levels!). Now let's consider an Indian city. The roads are already choked - some will save time as above if they now drive to where they have to go. But how much time (and pollution) will everyone else suffer? Is the balance the same as in Sweden (or if you will, the US, where the AVERAGE commute is still under 25 minutes, albeit with a clear tail)? Stockholm recently opted for a congesting charging scheme to try to ration better the available space on the limited number of bridges and other ways into town. Could or should Indian cities do the same? Should they start NOW before decisions about car ownership and housing are made, or after, as Stockholm did? Congestion charging may not be the ideal mechanism for India, but it has helped achieve a better balance on crowded roads in Stockholm, London, and for many years Singapore So Setty, the question is not whether the family you describe is right or wrong, rather, what policy package would put them in a position to consider ALL costs not just their own gains in time? And what mechanisms are appropriate for ALL cities to achieve a better balance between individual and collective traffic? It seems to me that if motorizing cities act first to strengthen collective transport, strengthen and enforce emissions and fuel norms, and establish a clear tradition that everyone pays for the costs he/she imposes on others (congestion, noise, air pollution etc) I wish I knew the answer. Unfortunately even the so called leader of the Free Market, the US, can't seem to wrap its mind around the Swedish approach. Which one will India choose? Lee Schipper EMBARQ Fellow EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net skype: mrmeter +1 510 642 6889 Cell +1 202 262 7476 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Pendakur Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:16 AM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility orMobilizing Crime It would be good if all the people who have sent in discussions on the "smart Tata car", to place themselves in the position of a person, say in Bangalore (india), who has two children and a spouse, all going to different destinations. Even though the bus system is ok in Banaglore, compared to other cities in India, it would take this family a great deal of time and money to reach their destinations,. In addition, all four destinations (2 schools and 2 work places) are farther apart. This smart car is a boon to this family. It will cut their travel time in half and provide a safer vehicle than the motor cycle they use now. Eloquence is good (criminalizing mobility) but empty eloquence from a distance is rarely of any significance. Cheers. Setty Dr. V. Setty Pendakur Professor Emeritus, University of BC Honorary Professor, China National Academy of Sciences; Director, ITDP (NY) & Secretary, ABE90-TRB President, Pacific Policy and Planning Associates 702- 1099 Marinaside Cresecent, Vancouver, BC Canada V6Z 2Z3 604-263-3576; Fax: 604-263-6493 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc .org ] On Behalf Of Walter Hook Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:45 AM To: edelman@greenidea.eu Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime Todd People in developing countries still face significant mobility constraints, and for them low cost vehicles are a boon. A motorbike, a motorized three wheeler, a car, these things may be an economic lifeline to a relatively poor family. Ownership without use poses relatively minor social problems, so what is the problem with a cheap car? The social problems are primarily associated with use, so it is primarily the cost of the use of vehicles that needs to be increased to reflect the true social cost, not the ownership of the vehicle. The optimal cost of the car is the cost it takes to make a car someone wants safely that meets all the regulatory requirements. With China and India becoming big producers and mechanization proceeding apace, the price of motor vehicles in real terms is likely to fall over time. All manufactured goods fall in price. Falling consumer prices are in general a sign of progress. Less of society's labor required to produce the vehicle, leaves money to spend on something else. However, what is never going to fall in price is the value of downtown real estate, including the value of road space in desirable locations. There is only one Greenwich Village in Manhattan, and on streets with extremely expensive real estate parking is absolutely free. Of course the result is that there is virtually no parking available, and most of this valuable real estate ends up being used as a car storage facility for local residents and shop owners. This is completely crazy, and people are slowly waking up to this madness. What is also unlikely to fall in price is oil. Hence, over time the use of vehicles is going to increase in price, and the cost of ownership decrease in relative terms. It is not impossible to imagine that at some point cars, like cell phones, will be practically given away for free in order to sell much more expensive services related to them, like parking, oil, whatever. With Zip Car, you don't need to own the vehicle at all, you are mainly paying for the garaging and gasoline and vehicle maintenance. The replacement cost of the vehicle is relatively minor. One can imagine that you could pay so much for a parking slot in a garage that the garage eventually will throw in the use of the car for free. It seems to me an exercise in futility and risks sounding elitist to complain about the low cost of vehicles when the social problem lies elsewhere. w -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:33 PM Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime Hi Walter, Walter Hook wrote: I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't think that the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem. OK If the vehicle is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe emission standards, those are serious social problems. YES Other than this, it is great if the cost of vehicles goes down. WHY? However, it will create pressure on the governments to charge prices that more accurately reflect the full social cost of the use of the vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road user charges. COULD you explain this, please? Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive ones. I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it wasn't picked up. THANKS, T -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Lee Schipper Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM To: bruun@seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show, today which you Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems as I know where there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita Roychowdry of CSE and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and there were call ins as well. lee Lee Schipper EMBARQ Fellow EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net skype: mrmeter +1 510 642 6889 Cell +1 202 262 7476 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of bruun@seas.upenn.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime Hassaan The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists themselves in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a very lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of their users as well, and bring the ratio up. This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well known, is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5 percent auto ownership. On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right that the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's government works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. Eric Bruun Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : Friends, There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the developed and developing world create the context to despise such an incredible product? Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory oversight, etc.) are also provided. Regards, Hassaan -- Institutional Development Specialist Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & Development Department, Government of the Punjab A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) F: 9213585 M: 0345 455 6016 Skype: halgazel http://hghazali.googlepages.com *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From sujit at vsnl.com Fri Jan 25 02:16:11 2008 From: sujit at vsnl.com (Sujit Patwardhan) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:46:11 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Bikes Outsell Cars in Oz In-Reply-To: <4cfd20aa0801240902m6fc10274t63223a3e308738ae@mail.gmail.com> References: <4cfd20aa0801240902m6fc10274t63223a3e308738ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4cfd20aa0801240916l18acc23cyd62a43407c3c21e1@mail.gmail.com> Take a look at this site and the story "Bikes Outsell Cars in Oz". http://www.carectomy.com/index.php/Bikes/Bikes-Outsell-Cars-in-Oz There is plenty more on it. Thanks to Shirish Kanitkar for pointing out this site. -- Sujit -- ------------------------------------------------------ Sujit Patwardhan sujit@vsnl.com sujitjp@gmail.com "Yamuna", ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007 India Tel: 25537955 ----------------------------------------------------- Hon. Secretary: Parisar www.parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------ Founder Member: PTTF (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum) www.pttf.net ------------------------------------------------------ -- ------------------------------------------------------ Sujit Patwardhan sujit@vsnl.com sujitjp@gmail.com "Yamuna", ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007 India Tel: 25537955 ----------------------------------------------------- Hon. Secretary: Parisar www.parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------ Founder Member: PTTF (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum) www.pttf.net ------------------------------------------------------ From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Fri Jan 25 15:24:06 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:24:06 +0100 Subject: [sustran] New forum on City Bikes - An invitation Message-ID: <002001c85f1a$e6014350$b203c9f0$@britton@ecoplan.org> This is to invite any of you who may share this interest to join a new forum here specifically focused on the issues around City or Public Bicycles. This is intended to provide a useful supplement to our on-going World City Bike Implementation Strategies project, for which you can find full details at http://www.citybike.newmobility.org/ Do we really need yet one more discussion group? Well I can think of two possible justifications for this. First. To save you and the others in this group the time and bother of yet more email and details in this specific area which may not be of immediate interest to all here. And second because, no more, no less, the world really does need people and groups who care about this useful form of low-carbon, high-equity new mobility to put their brains and energies together to make it happen. More, faster, and better! You can bet it won't be world government that will do it for us. ;-) To join: a blank message to WorldCityBike-subscribe@yahoogroups.com will do it nicely. And if you have thoughts for me on this, please do let me know. Eric Britton One more New Mobility guy From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Fri Jan 25 15:24:06 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:24:06 +0100 Subject: [sustran] [NewMobilityCafe] New forum on City Bikes - An invitation Message-ID: <002001c85f1a$e6014350$b203c9f0$@britton@ecoplan.org> This is to invite any of you who may share this interest to join a new forum here specifically focused on the issues around City or Public Bicycles. This is intended to provide a useful supplement to our on-going World City Bike Implementation Strategies project, for which you can find full details at http://www.citybike.newmobility.org/ Do we really need yet one more discussion group? Well I can think of two possible justifications for this. First. To save you and the others in this group the time and bother of yet more email and details in this specific area which may not be of immediate interest to all here. And second because, no more, no less, the world really does need people and groups who care about this useful form of low-carbon, high-equity new mobility to put their brains and energies together to make it happen. More, faster, and better! You can bet it won't be world government that will do it for us. ;-) To join: a blank message to WorldCityBike-subscribe@yahoogroups.com will do it nicely. And if you have thoughts for me on this, please do let me know. Eric Britton One more New Mobility guy From schipper at wri.org Fri Jan 25 17:07:58 2008 From: schipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:07:58 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime References: <4799CE5A.15285.2ADB6F@localhost> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C011EE8A0@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Thanks Anumita. I think the key statement is buried below: "-- cars may drive growth and aspirations, but they can never meet the commuting needs of the urban majority" And then she proceeds to list options that define and seek balance. Hope India defines that balance and grabs the options to make them real Lee Schipper EMBARQ Fellow EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net skype: mrmeter +1 510 642 6889 Cell +1 202 262 7476 -----Original Message----- From: Anumita [mailto:anumita@cseindia.org] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:26 PM To: Lee Schipper Cc: whook@itdp.org; regina@wholechoice.net; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom; carlosfpardo@gmail.com Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime Lee, I guess all of us are saying the same thing. Clearly, this fuss over Nano is just not about Nano but about cars, all cars - big, small, cheap, expensive cars. Nano has given us the chance to focus the public debate on congestion, oil guzzling and emissions and make these concerns more visible. This debate is certainly very nuanced. -- Look at the Indian paradox today - super cheap cars like Nano will expand the bottom of the market pyramid when rising incomes have already triggered a steady drift to bigger cars and SUVs. So the ends are stretched both ways. Car companies will continue to compete on costs in a price sensitive market. With frugal engineering, weak regulations, fiscal largess to the car companies, even for their production facilities, cars can come very cheap. Question is how do we deal with it? -- Interestingly, in a car to car comparison nano or any small car can offer fuel savings - certainly more sensible than the bigger, more powerful, high performance cars that are about several hundreds per 1000 people in many industrialized cities. But the new investments in the Indian auto sector will have to be linked with stringent emissions regulations, in-use compliance requirements and efficiency standards. - But the reason why we are debating Nano, and, are so concerned today, is because we still have the time, the chance and the alternatives to plan mobility systems differently in Indian cities. We already have a reasonable strength in the usage of public transport at least in big cities, NMT and walking -- that if protected and improved can help us to take an alternative route and avoid huge emissions and oil guzzling in Indian cities. Building alternatives at this stage of motorisation is critical -- cars may drive growth and aspirations, but they can never meet the commuting needs of the urban majority. -- But this is where we draw a blank. As in the rest of the world we have also realized that to a very great extent mobility management hinges on fiscal measures (in addition to providing good public transport). But the wisdom of taxing a product for the vice and not just for their values is still quite alien to the Indian and many other Asian fiscal regimes. The governments are strongly entrenched in command and control strategies. They are still not looking at fiscal measures that can change consumer and commuter choices, push cities to make better choices on transportation options, create alternative sources of revenue and broaden the revenue base to fund mobility and technology transition. But this will require a different kind of maturity and sophistication in our fiscal regimen. -- Greening of taxes will be an even bigger battle in the present context of governance and public awareness. Aspirational vote bank never says tax our cars and the governance systems in cities are not strong enough to force it down. Therefore, just the opposite is happening today. The city governments penalize buses by taxing them higher per passenger they carry than cars that carry lot less and use up more road space etc. -- In Delhi, we are amidst discussions on fuel taxes, parking charges, road taxes etc. But resistance is unbelievable. Even if matters move in Delhi it will still be a drop in the ocean. The policy mandate on transportation and mobility matters is so decentralized that it is the ability of all individual cities that will ultimately decide the progress on this front. National policies like JNURM etc are still not strong enough framework to create a template for the cities. Smaller cities are going to be even more badly hit by small car explosion as public policies on public transport are virtually non existent for these cities - just because these cities do not have high density travel corridors to justify investment in 'profitable' public transport. This means millions are left to organise their own mobility and will happily graduate from bicycles and cycle rickshaws to cheap cars. -- We need to understand that when it comes to practical planning for mobility management in our cities the basic policy tools, databases, policy indicators of sustainability etc do not even exist to enable city level planning and action. Even public voice remains dormant. This is where we need to move fast to see some real action. Otherwise, good ideas will remain good ideas while cars take over. Anumita On 24 Jan 2008 at 10:40, Lee Schipper wrote: > Anumita, what do you say? Sounds like we're between a piece of rubber > and a spare tyre > > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org > and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA > www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > +1 510 642 6889 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Walter Hook [mailto:whook@itdp.org] > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:23 AM > To: Lee Schipper; 'Gina Anderson' > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom; anumita@cseindia.org > Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: > CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime > > So what are you proposing? Banning them? If there are safety and > tailpile grounds to single out this vehicle, ok, then the case should > be articulated in that way. > > But I think this is hyperbole. You can already get dirt cheap > motorbikes, you can already use dirt cheap three wheelers, dirt cheap > used Ambassadors which probably cost roughly the same and are probably > as good value for money, traffic is already chaos in some places. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lee Schipper [mailto:schipper@wri.org] > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:13 AM > To: Walter Hook; Gina Anderson > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom; anumita@cseindia.org > Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: > CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime > > I think Walter the problem is timing. If a cheap car races in and > mesmerizes everyone BEFORE a truly sustainable collective system with > good and well protected NMT is there, all is lost...If the entrance of > the car is slowed down, and really mean much slower, I fear chaos will > reign on streets. One doesn't have to ban it but one has to be sure > one is charging for its reall costs imposed on local and global citizens. > > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org > and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA > www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > +1 510 642 6889 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Walter Hook [mailto:whook@itdp.org] > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:05 AM > To: 'Gina Anderson'; Lee Schipper > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom > Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: > CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime > > Gina, > > Nice to hear from you! Of course there is going to be a major > problem, but there will be a problem whatever the price of the car, it > will just manifest itself sooner with lower car prices. Mumbai was > proposing banning the car. > Well, if they proposed banning it for some safety or tailpipe emission > reason, ok, but it is absurd to ban it because the cost is low. This > is, however, the tendency in Asia, to simply ban vehicle categories. > They also banned non motorized three wheelers, diesel buses, etc. In > Guangzhou they just banned motorcycles. Some good results of this, > and some bad ones. In my view, banning vehicles due to low cost is a > bad idea and sets an absurd regulatory precedent. There is a general > problem in India of using such blanket bans to make up for the general > inability of government to regulate in a more sophisticated way. I am > hoping that over time pressure from motorization might lead to the use > of more sophisticated regulatory tools, like parking regulation, > proper tailpipe regulation, road worthiness testing, etc. > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of Gina Anderson > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:40 PM > To: Lee Schipper > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom > Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility > orMobilizing Crime > > Thanks for setting some things out clearly Lee. > > Walter, your remarks seem a bit disingenuous. While theoretically > there is no "problem" with an inexpensive car, I'm guessing you'd say > there is a problem with government's ability/willingness to price > parking/fuel/road use? to optimize efficient and equitable transport. > But, the situation in most cities worldwide including Indian cities is > that conventional mechanisms and pricing related to transport are in > place. Introducing a cheap vehicle in such circumstances will clearly > lead to worse levels of congestion in urban areas. I'm sure you know > the term "super crush loading", which is a technical term that had to > be coined to describe the level of service (LOS) on Indian commuter > trains at peak times when passengers were hanging onto the outside of > cars for their commute; certainly I made use of it when you were my > thesis advisor 10 years or so back. Wouldn't a similar type of term > need to be used to describe the LOS on roads in developing countries > where motorization is expanding rapidly? > > Using the "theory of second best", meaning that the ideal solution is > too difficult to reach (assuring sustainable transport by having "use" > pricing that adequately promotes efficient modes, assuring all people > can have their mobility needs met), the second best solution would > have to be concerned with a very low cost car. It will skew the > economics of transport decision-making and will cause worse mass > congestion - and then truly only those with higher incomes will be able to get around. > > Gina Agarwal Anderson > > -- > Regina Anderson, AICP > WholeChoice Master Planning, Pedestrian Design, Sustainability > Singapore phone +65 6467-6594 > > > Quoting Lee Schipper : > > > Setty makes a fair point, but that's just the dilemma facing > > transport > > > everywhere. The time-space geographer Waerneryd used the problem in > the > > early 1970s -- only a car will connect all the tasks for those > parents. > > > > The problem is that Waerneryd worked in Sweden, where even in the > 1970s > > the kinds of congestion Bangalore and other Indian cities have NOW > was > > unknown (and is still pretty mild). So an additional driver in > > Sweden could pretty much count on connecting more dots with a car > > than with collective transport. > > > > Steven Tyler studied Knivsta, a town n. of Stockholm on the main > > railroad line and road to Uppsala. He wondered why so many people > drove > > to work? There were two answer -- one, tax policy permitted > > deduction for commuting expenses, and a car could be deducted if it > > saved 1/2 hour, and two, far more jobs were accessible by car than > > by mass > transit > > within a given amount of driving time. In the early 1970s Sweden > > had the highest car ownership in Europe -- but it lost that lead to > Germany, > > Italy, and now even other countries. One reason may be the good mass > > transit, i.e., that the number of people who really save money and > time > > driving to work maxed out. Local authorities are trying to do that > > all > > > over Scandinavia to reduce driving. Who is doing that in India, > > China, > > > or the US today? > > > > Sweden also pioneered green taxes. If you bought a "standard" car in > the > > 1990s you paid somewhat higher purchase taxes than if you bought one > > that satisfied California's more demanding pollution norms. This > > eased > > > in a rapid transition away from leaded fuel (which cost more than > > unleaded from the mid 1980s) and from "high" sulfur diesel (high > > compared to the present <15 ppm in Sweden today, but well below > > Indian > > > levels!). > > > > Now let's consider an Indian city. The roads are already choked - > > some > > > will save time as above if they now drive to where they have to go. > But > > how much time (and pollution) will everyone else suffer? Is the > balance > > the same as in Sweden (or if you will, the US, where the AVERAGE > commute > > is still under 25 minutes, albeit with a clear tail)? Stockholm > recently > > opted for a congesting charging scheme to try to ration better the > > available space on the limited number of bridges and other ways into > > town. Could or should Indian cities do the same? Should they start > > NOW > > > before decisions about car ownership and housing are made, or after, > as > > Stockholm did? Congestion charging may not be the ideal mechanism > > for India, but it has helped achieve a better balance on crowded > > roads in > > > Stockholm, London, and for many years Singapore > > > > So Setty, the question is not whether the family you describe is > > right > > > or wrong, rather, what policy package would put them in a position > > to consider ALL costs not just their own gains in time? And what > mechanisms > > are appropriate for ALL cities to achieve a better balance between > > individual and collective traffic? It seems to me that if motorizing > > cities act first to strengthen collective transport, strengthen and > > enforce emissions and fuel norms, and establish a clear tradition > > that > > > everyone pays for the costs he/she imposes on others (congestion, > noise, > > air pollution etc) > > > > I wish I knew the answer. Unfortunately even the so called leader of > the > > Free Market, the US, can't seem to wrap its mind around the Swedish > > approach. Which one will India choose? > > > > Lee Schipper > > EMBARQ Fellow > > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org > > and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA > > www.uctc.net > > skype: mrmeter > > +1 510 642 6889 > > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] > > On Behalf Of Pendakur > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:16 AM > > To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > > Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing > > Mobility > > > orMobilizing Crime > > > > It would be good if all the people who have sent in discussions on > > the > > > "smart Tata car", to place themselves in the position of a person, > > say > > > in Bangalore (india), who has two children and a spouse, all going > > to different destinations. Even though the bus system is ok in > Banaglore, > > compared to other cities in India, it would take this family a great > > deal of time and money to reach their destinations,. In addition, > > all > > > four destinations (2 schools and 2 work places) are farther apart. > This > > smart car is a boon to this family. It will cut their travel time > > in half and provide a safer vehicle than the motor cycle they use now. > > > > Eloquence is good (criminalizing mobility) but empty eloquence from > > a distance is rarely of any significance. > > > > Cheers. > > > > Setty > > Dr. V. Setty Pendakur > > Professor Emeritus, University of BC Honorary Professor, China > > National Academy of Sciences; Director, ITDP > > (NY) & Secretary, ABE90-TRB > > > > President, Pacific Policy and Planning Associates > > 702- 1099 Marinaside Cresecent, Vancouver, BC Canada V6Z 2Z3 > > 604-263-3576; Fax: 604-263-6493 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: > > sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org > > > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.a > pc > > .org > > ] On Behalf Of Walter Hook > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:45 AM > > To: edelman@greenidea.eu > > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or > > Mobilizing > > > Crime > > > > Todd > > > > People in developing countries still face significant mobility > > constraints, and for them low cost vehicles are a boon. A motorbike, > > a > > > motorized three wheeler, a car, these things may be an economic > lifeline > > to a relatively poor family. > > > > Ownership without use poses relatively minor social problems, so > > what > is > > the problem with a cheap car? The social problems are primarily > > associated with use, so it is primarily the cost of the use of > vehicles > > that needs to be increased to reflect the true social cost, not the > > ownership of the vehicle. > > > > The optimal cost of the car is the cost it takes to make a car > > someone > > > wants safely that meets all the regulatory requirements. With China > and > > India becoming big producers and mechanization proceeding apace, the > > price of motor vehicles in real terms is likely to fall over time. > All > > manufactured goods fall in price. Falling consumer prices are in > > general a sign of progress. Less of society's labor required to > produce > > the vehicle, leaves money to spend on something else. > > > > However, what is never going to fall in price is the value of > > downtown > > > real estate, including the value of road space in desirable locations. > > There is only one Greenwich Village in Manhattan, and on streets > > with extremely expensive real estate parking is absolutely free. Of > > course > > > the result is that there is virtually no parking available, and most > of > > this valuable real estate ends up being used as a car storage > > facility > > > for local residents and shop owners. This is completely crazy, and > > people are slowly waking up to this madness. > > > > What is also unlikely to fall in price is oil. Hence, over time the > use > > of vehicles is going to increase in price, and the cost of ownership > > decrease in relative terms. > > > > It is not impossible to imagine that at some point cars, like cell > > phones, will be practically given away for free in order to sell > > much more expensive services related to them, like parking, oil, whatever. > > With Zip Car, you don't need to own the vehicle at all, you are > > mainly > > > paying for the garaging and gasoline and vehicle maintenance. The > > replacement cost of the vehicle is relatively minor. One can > > imagine that you could pay so much for a parking slot in a garage > > that the garage eventually will throw in the use of the car for free. > > > > It seems to me an exercise in futility and risks sounding elitist to > > complain about the low cost of vehicles when the social problem lies > > elsewhere. > > > > w > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > > Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:33 PM > > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or > > Mobilizing > > > Crime > > > > Hi Walter, > > > > Walter Hook wrote: > >> I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't > >> think > > that > >> the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem. > > OK > >> If the vehicle > >> is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe > >> emission standards, those are serious social problems. > > YES > >> Other than this, it is great > >> if the cost of vehicles goes down. > > WHY? > >> However, it will create pressure on the governments to charge > prices > > > >> that more accurately reflect the full social cost of the use of the > >> vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road user charges. > > COULD you explain this, please? > > > >> Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive ones. > > >> I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it > > wasn't > >> picked up. > >> > > THANKS, > > T > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > > Behalf > >> Of Lee Schipper > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM > >> To: bruun@seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or > Mobilizing > > Crime > >> > >> WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio > >> show, > > >> today which you Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems > >> as I know where there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita > >> Roychowdry of CSE and a Professor from MIT were also on the show > >> and there were call > ins > >> as well. > >> > >> lee > >> > >> > >> Lee Schipper > >> EMBARQ Fellow > >> EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org > >> and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA > >> www.uctc.net > >> skype: mrmeter > >> +1 510 642 6889 > >> Cell +1 202 262 7476 > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] > >> On > > >> Behalf Of bruun@seas.upenn.edu > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM > >> To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or > Mobilizing > >> Crime > >> > >> Hassaan > >> > >> The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is > >> going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and > >> livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been > >> about > > >> fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. > >> > >> One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to > >> pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists > > themselves > >> in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming > >> to them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built > >> to a > > very > >> lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of > > their > >> users as well, and bring the ratio up. > >> > >> This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things > >> people > > >> haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well > > known, > >> is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. > >> Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space > >> within many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly > >> to cause many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, > >> with only 2.5 > > >> percent auto ownership. > >> > >> On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right > > that > >> the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's > > government > >> works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will > be > >> working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as > >> possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other > >> people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would > >> be > > >> class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. > >> > >> Eric Bruun > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : > >> > >> > >>> Friends, > >>> > >>> There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line > >>> every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most > >>> exciting and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it > >>> seems Tata's mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I > >>> am surprised to > > >>> see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. > >>> I > > >>> don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's > Smart > > > >>> car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was > >>> probably > > >>> one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and > >>> Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the > >>> developed and developing world create the context to despise such > >>> an > >>> > >> incredible product? > >> > >>> Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower > >>> the masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the > >>> whole suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, > regulatory > > > >>> oversight, > >>> etc.) are also provided. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> > >>> Hassaan > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Institutional Development Specialist Urban Sector Policy and > >>> Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & Development > >>> Department, Government of the Punjab > >>> > >>> A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan > >>> T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) > >>> F: 9213585 > >>> M: 0345 455 6016 > >>> Skype: halgazel > >>> http://hghazali.googlepages.com > >>> > >>> *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > >>> > >> YAHOOGROUPS. > >> > >>> Please go to > >>> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > >>> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >>> The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there > >>> cannot > > >>> post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site > makes > > > >>> it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > >>> > >>> ================================================================ > >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of > >>> people-centred, > > > >>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > >>> countries (the 'Global South'). > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > >> YAHOOGROUPS. > >> > >> Please go to > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > > to > >> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > >> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot > >> post > > to > >> the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it > >> seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > >> > >> ================================================================ > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > countries > >> (the 'Global South'). > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > >> YAHOOGROUPS. > >> > >> Please go to > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > > to > > join > >> the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > > yahoogroups > >> version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > >> real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > >> like you > > can). > >> Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > >> > >> ================================================================ > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > countries > >> (the 'Global South'). > >> > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > > YAHOOGROUPS. > >> > >> Please go to > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > > to > > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post > to > > the > > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > >> > >> ================================================================ > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > (the 'Global South'). > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > Todd Edelman > > Director > > Green Idea Factory > > > > Korunni 72 > > CZ-10100 Praha 10 > > Czech Republic > > > > Skype: toddedelman > > ++420 605 915 970 > > ++420 222 517 832 > > > > edelman@greenidea.eu > > http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ > > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman > > > > Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network > > www.worldcarfree.net > > > > CAR is over. If you WANT it. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > > YAHOOGROUPS. > > > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to > > join > > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups > > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > > can). > > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > > YAHOOGROUPS. > > > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to > > join > > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups > > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > > can). > > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > > YAHOOGROUPS. > > > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to > > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post > to > > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > > to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot > > post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site > > makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > countries (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post > to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it > seem like you can). > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > ******************************************************** Anumita Roychowdhury Associate Director,Research and Advocacy Centre for Science and Environment 41, Tughlakabad Institutional Area New Delhi 110062 Tel: 91-11-29955124, 29955125, 29956394 Fax: 91-11-29955879, 29955870 Email: anumita@cseindia.org Website: www.cseindia.org *************************************************** From ranjit.gadgil at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 19:19:29 2008 From: ranjit.gadgil at gmail.com (Ranjit Gadgil) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:49:29 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility orMobilizing Crime In-Reply-To: <4cfd20aa0801231316g127eda63qc140570654fb29c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <000c01c85de7$9ca162f0$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> <20080123181604.DF1EB2C1E1@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> <4cfd20aa0801231316g127eda63qc140570654fb29c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: au contraire, Professor Setty, we live and travel in Pune, so our eloquence is actually from much closer than British Columbia! I find your remarks in light of this paper of yours surprising. http://www.ucalgary.ca/ev/designresearch/projects/2000/cuc/tp/outreach/setty(transportation).pdf Of course what you probably failed to identify in the paper is that costs of an MV itself might drop fast enough to allow more MV ownership, thus negating this statement of yours *Considering all these factors: increasing average household incomes, inflation, cost of MVs and MCs, it appears that most of the households in Asia will not have the economic capacity to own and operate a MV, at least to the year 2010.* Have you changed your position on sustainable transport due to this? - Ranjit On Jan 24, 2008 2:46 AM, Sujit Patwardhan wrote: > > > > If they are all going to different destinations I don't see how owning the > Nano would help very much, unless they buy several Nanos per family. And > wouldn't it be much cheaper to improve the public transport (presently > getting slower each year mainly due to the increased number of personal auto > vehicles coming on the roads) by introducing bus lanes, more buses etc than > to get into the vicious circle of building more roads, flyovers, parking > lots etc which will not solve congestion but make it worse? Fortunately the > central government has recently stopped funds to Bangalore city under the > Jawaharlal Nehru National Urban renewal Mission (JNNURM) for flyovers and > roads without preparation of a comprehensive citywide mobility plan that > favours "mobility of people rather than vehicles" as stressed by the > National Urban Transport Policy. Many NGOs in India welcome this step as > explosion of auto vehicle numbers (not just the Nano) will be disaster for > the country. > -- > Sujit > > > > > > > On Jan 23, 2008 11:45 PM, Pendakur wrote: > > > It would be good if all the people who have sent in discussions on the > > "smart Tata car", to place themselves in the position of a person, say > > in > > Bangalore (india), who has two children and a spouse, all going to > > different > > destinations. Even though the bus system is ok in Banaglore, compared > > to > > other cities in India, it would take this family a great deal of time > > and > > money to reach their destinations,. In addition, all four destinations > > (2 > > schools and 2 work places) are farther apart. This smart car is a boon > > to > > this family. It will cut their travel time in half and provide a safer > > vehicle than the motor cycle they use now. > > > > Eloquence is good (criminalizing mobility) but empty eloquence from a > > distance is rarely of any significance. > > > > Cheers. > > > > Setty > > Dr. V. Setty Pendakur > > Professor Emeritus, University of BC > > Honorary Professor, China National Academy of Sciences; > > Director, ITDP (NY) & Secretary, ABE90-TRB > > > > President, Pacific Policy and Planning Associates > > 702- 1099 Marinaside Cresecent, Vancouver, BC > > Canada V6Z 2Z3 > > 604-263-3576; Fax: 604-263-6493 > > > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------ > Sujit Patwardhan > sujit@vsnl.com > sujitjp@gmail.com > > "Yamuna", > ICS Colony, > Ganeshkhind Road, > Pune 411 007 > India > Tel: 25537955 > ----------------------------------------------------- > Hon. Secretary: > Parisar > www.parisar.org > ------------------------------------------------------ > Founder Member: > PTTF > (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum) > www.pttf.net > ------------------------------------------------------ -- - Ranjit From anumita at cseindia.org Fri Jan 25 15:26:10 2008 From: anumita at cseindia.org (Anumita) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 11:56:10 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime In-Reply-To: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C011EE269@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Message-ID: <4799CE5A.15285.2ADB6F@localhost> Lee, I guess all of us are saying the same thing. Clearly, this fuss over Nano is just not about Nano but about cars, all cars ? big, small, cheap, expensive cars. Nano has given us the chance to focus the public debate on congestion, oil guzzling and emissions and make these concerns more visible. This debate is certainly very nuanced. -- Look at the Indian paradox today ? super cheap cars like Nano will expand the bottom of the market pyramid when rising incomes have already triggered a steady drift to bigger cars and SUVs. So the ends are stretched both ways. Car companies will continue to compete on costs in a price sensitive market. With frugal engineering, weak regulations, fiscal largess to the car companies, even for their production facilities, cars can come very cheap. Question is how do we deal with it? -- Interestingly, in a car to car comparison nano or any small car can offer fuel savings ? certainly more sensible than the bigger, more powerful, high performance cars that are about several hundreds per 1000 people in many industrialized cities. But the new investments in the Indian auto sector will have to be linked with stringent emissions regulations, in-use compliance requirements and efficiency standards. ? But the reason why we are debating Nano, and, are so concerned today, is because we still have the time, the chance and the alternatives to plan mobility systems differently in Indian cities. We already have a reasonable strength in the usage of public transport at least in big cities, NMT and walking -- that if protected and improved can help us to take an alternative route and avoid huge emissions and oil guzzling in Indian cities. Building alternatives at this stage of motorisation is critical -- cars may drive growth and aspirations, but they can never meet the commuting needs of the urban majority. -- But this is where we draw a blank. As in the rest of the world we have also realized that to a very great extent mobility management hinges on fiscal measures (in addition to providing good public transport). But the wisdom of taxing a product for the vice and not just for their values is still quite alien to the Indian and many other Asian fiscal regimes. The governments are strongly entrenched in command and control strategies. They are still not looking at fiscal measures that can change consumer and commuter choices, push cities to make better choices on transportation options, create alternative sources of revenue and broaden the revenue base to fund mobility and technology transition. But this will require a different kind of maturity and sophistication in our fiscal regimen. -- Greening of taxes will be an even bigger battle in the present context of governance and public awareness. Aspirational vote bank never says tax our cars and the governance systems in cities are not strong enough to force it down. Therefore, just the opposite is happening today. The city governments penalize buses by taxing them higher per passenger they carry than cars that carry lot less and use up more road space etc. -- In Delhi, we are amidst discussions on fuel taxes, parking charges, road taxes etc. But resistance is unbelievable. Even if matters move in Delhi it will still be a drop in the ocean. The policy mandate on transportation and mobility matters is so decentralized that it is the ability of all individual cities that will ultimately decide the progress on this front. National policies like JNURM etc are still not strong enough framework to create a template for the cities. Smaller cities are going to be even more badly hit by small car explosion as public policies on public transport are virtually non existent for these cities ? just because these cities do not have high density travel corridors to justify investment in ?profitable? public transport. This means millions are left to organise their own mobility and will happily graduate from bicycles and cycle rickshaws to cheap cars. -- We need to understand that when it comes to practical planning for mobility management in our cities the basic policy tools, databases, policy indicators of sustainability etc do not even exist to enable city level planning and action. Even public voice remains dormant. This is where we need to move fast to see some real action. Otherwise, good ideas will remain good ideas while cars take over. Anumita On 24 Jan 2008 at 10:40, Lee Schipper wrote: > Anumita, what do you say? Sounds like we're between a piece of rubber > and a spare tyre > > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > and > Visiting Scholar > UC Transportation Center > Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > +1 510 642 6889 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Walter Hook [mailto:whook@itdp.org] > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:23 AM > To: Lee Schipper; 'Gina Anderson' > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom; anumita@cseindia.org > Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: > CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime > > So what are you proposing? Banning them? If there are safety and > tailpile grounds to single out this vehicle, ok, then the case should be > articulated in that way. > > But I think this is hyperbole. You can already get dirt cheap > motorbikes, you can already use dirt cheap three wheelers, dirt cheap > used Ambassadors which probably cost roughly the same and are probably > as good value for money, traffic is already chaos in some places. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lee Schipper [mailto:schipper@wri.org] > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:13 AM > To: Walter Hook; Gina Anderson > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom; anumita@cseindia.org > Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: > CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime > > I think Walter the problem is timing. If a cheap car races in and > mesmerizes everyone BEFORE a truly sustainable collective system with > good and well protected NMT is there, all is lost...If the entrance of > the car is slowed down, and really mean much slower, I fear chaos will > reign on streets. One doesn't have to ban it but one has to be sure one > is charging for its reall costs imposed on local and global citizens. > > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and > Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > +1 510 642 6889 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Walter Hook [mailto:whook@itdp.org] > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:05 AM > To: 'Gina Anderson'; Lee Schipper > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom > Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: > CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime > > Gina, > > Nice to hear from you! Of course there is going to be a major problem, > but there will be a problem whatever the price of the car, it will just > manifest itself sooner with lower car prices. Mumbai was proposing > banning the car. > Well, if they proposed banning it for some safety or tailpipe emission > reason, ok, but it is absurd to ban it because the cost is low. This > is, however, the tendency in Asia, to simply ban vehicle categories. > They also banned non motorized three wheelers, diesel buses, etc. In > Guangzhou they just banned motorcycles. Some good results of this, and > some bad ones. In my view, banning vehicles due to low cost is a bad > idea and sets an absurd regulatory precedent. There is a general > problem in India of using such blanket bans to make up for the general > inability of government to regulate in a more sophisticated way. I am > hoping that over time pressure from motorization might lead to the use > of more sophisticated regulatory tools, like parking regulation, proper > tailpipe regulation, road worthiness testing, etc. > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of Gina Anderson > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:40 PM > To: Lee Schipper > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom > Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility > orMobilizing Crime > > Thanks for setting some things out clearly Lee. > > Walter, your remarks seem a bit disingenuous. While theoretically there > is no "problem" with an inexpensive car, I'm guessing you'd say there is > a problem with government's ability/willingness to price > parking/fuel/road use? to optimize efficient and equitable transport. > But, the situation in most cities worldwide including Indian cities is > that conventional mechanisms and pricing related to transport are in > place. Introducing a cheap vehicle in such circumstances will clearly > lead to worse levels of congestion in urban areas. I'm sure you know > the term "super crush loading", which is a technical term that had to be > coined to describe the level of service (LOS) on Indian commuter trains > at peak times when passengers were hanging onto the outside of cars for > their commute; certainly I made use of it when you were my thesis > advisor 10 years or so back. Wouldn't a similar type of term need to be > used to describe the LOS on roads in developing countries where > motorization is expanding rapidly? > > Using the "theory of second best", meaning that the ideal solution is > too difficult to reach (assuring sustainable transport by having "use" > pricing that adequately promotes efficient modes, assuring all people > can have their mobility needs met), the second best solution would have > to be concerned with a very low cost car. It will skew the economics of > transport decision-making and will cause worse mass congestion - and > then truly only those with higher incomes will be able to get around. > > Gina Agarwal Anderson > > -- > Regina Anderson, AICP > WholeChoice Master Planning, Pedestrian Design, Sustainability Singapore > phone +65 6467-6594 > > > Quoting Lee Schipper : > > > Setty makes a fair point, but that's just the dilemma facing transport > > > everywhere. The time-space geographer Waerneryd used the problem in > the > > early 1970s -- only a car will connect all the tasks for those > parents. > > > > The problem is that Waerneryd worked in Sweden, where even in the > 1970s > > the kinds of congestion Bangalore and other Indian cities have NOW > was > > unknown (and is still pretty mild). So an additional driver in Sweden > > could pretty much count on connecting more dots with a car than with > > collective transport. > > > > Steven Tyler studied Knivsta, a town n. of Stockholm on the main > > railroad line and road to Uppsala. He wondered why so many people > drove > > to work? There were two answer -- one, tax policy permitted deduction > > for commuting expenses, and a car could be deducted if it saved 1/2 > > hour, and two, far more jobs were accessible by car than by mass > transit > > within a given amount of driving time. In the early 1970s Sweden had > > the highest car ownership in Europe -- but it lost that lead to > Germany, > > Italy, and now even other countries. One reason may be the good mass > > transit, i.e., that the number of people who really save money and > time > > driving to work maxed out. Local authorities are trying to do that all > > > over Scandinavia to reduce driving. Who is doing that in India, China, > > > or the US today? > > > > Sweden also pioneered green taxes. If you bought a "standard" car in > the > > 1990s you paid somewhat higher purchase taxes than if you bought one > > that satisfied California's more demanding pollution norms. This eased > > > in a rapid transition away from leaded fuel (which cost more than > > unleaded from the mid 1980s) and from "high" sulfur diesel (high > > compared to the present <15 ppm in Sweden today, but well below Indian > > > levels!). > > > > Now let's consider an Indian city. The roads are already choked - some > > > will save time as above if they now drive to where they have to go. > But > > how much time (and pollution) will everyone else suffer? Is the > balance > > the same as in Sweden (or if you will, the US, where the AVERAGE > commute > > is still under 25 minutes, albeit with a clear tail)? Stockholm > recently > > opted for a congesting charging scheme to try to ration better the > > available space on the limited number of bridges and other ways into > > town. Could or should Indian cities do the same? Should they start NOW > > > before decisions about car ownership and housing are made, or after, > as > > Stockholm did? Congestion charging may not be the ideal mechanism for > > India, but it has helped achieve a better balance on crowded roads in > > > Stockholm, London, and for many years Singapore > > > > So Setty, the question is not whether the family you describe is right > > > or wrong, rather, what policy package would put them in a position to > > consider ALL costs not just their own gains in time? And what > mechanisms > > are appropriate for ALL cities to achieve a better balance between > > individual and collective traffic? It seems to me that if motorizing > > cities act first to strengthen collective transport, strengthen and > > enforce emissions and fuel norms, and establish a clear tradition that > > > everyone pays for the costs he/she imposes on others (congestion, > noise, > > air pollution etc) > > > > I wish I knew the answer. Unfortunately even the so called leader of > the > > Free Market, the US, can't seem to wrap its mind around the Swedish > > approach. Which one will India choose? > > > > Lee Schipper > > EMBARQ Fellow > > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org > > and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA > > www.uctc.net > > skype: mrmeter > > +1 510 642 6889 > > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > > Behalf Of Pendakur > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:16 AM > > To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > > Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility > > > orMobilizing Crime > > > > It would be good if all the people who have sent in discussions on the > > > "smart Tata car", to place themselves in the position of a person, say > > > in Bangalore (india), who has two children and a spouse, all going to > > different destinations. Even though the bus system is ok in > Banaglore, > > compared to other cities in India, it would take this family a great > > deal of time and money to reach their destinations,. In addition, all > > > four destinations (2 schools and 2 work places) are farther apart. > This > > smart car is a boon to this family. It will cut their travel time in > > half and provide a safer vehicle than the motor cycle they use now. > > > > Eloquence is good (criminalizing mobility) but empty eloquence from a > > distance is rarely of any significance. > > > > Cheers. > > > > Setty > > Dr. V. Setty Pendakur > > Professor Emeritus, University of BC > > Honorary Professor, China National Academy of Sciences; Director, ITDP > > (NY) & Secretary, ABE90-TRB > > > > President, Pacific Policy and Planning Associates > > 702- 1099 Marinaside Cresecent, Vancouver, BC Canada V6Z 2Z3 > > 604-263-3576; Fax: 604-263-6493 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: > > sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org > > > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc > > .org > > ] On Behalf Of Walter Hook > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:45 AM > > To: edelman@greenidea.eu > > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > > > Crime > > > > Todd > > > > People in developing countries still face significant mobility > > constraints, and for them low cost vehicles are a boon. A motorbike, a > > > motorized three wheeler, a car, these things may be an economic > lifeline > > to a relatively poor family. > > > > Ownership without use poses relatively minor social problems, so what > is > > the problem with a cheap car? The social problems are primarily > > associated with use, so it is primarily the cost of the use of > vehicles > > that needs to be increased to reflect the true social cost, not the > > ownership of the vehicle. > > > > The optimal cost of the car is the cost it takes to make a car someone > > > wants safely that meets all the regulatory requirements. With China > and > > India becoming big producers and mechanization proceeding apace, the > > price of motor vehicles in real terms is likely to fall over time. > All > > manufactured goods fall in price. Falling consumer prices are in > > general a sign of progress. Less of society's labor required to > produce > > the vehicle, leaves money to spend on something else. > > > > However, what is never going to fall in price is the value of downtown > > > real estate, including the value of road space in desirable locations. > > There is only one Greenwich Village in Manhattan, and on streets with > > extremely expensive real estate parking is absolutely free. Of course > > > the result is that there is virtually no parking available, and most > of > > this valuable real estate ends up being used as a car storage facility > > > for local residents and shop owners. This is completely crazy, and > > people are slowly waking up to this madness. > > > > What is also unlikely to fall in price is oil. Hence, over time the > use > > of vehicles is going to increase in price, and the cost of ownership > > decrease in relative terms. > > > > It is not impossible to imagine that at some point cars, like cell > > phones, will be practically given away for free in order to sell much > > more expensive services related to them, like parking, oil, whatever. > > With Zip Car, you don't need to own the vehicle at all, you are mainly > > > paying for the garaging and gasoline and vehicle maintenance. The > > replacement cost of the vehicle is relatively minor. One can imagine > > that you could pay so much for a parking slot in a garage that the > > garage eventually will throw in the use of the car for free. > > > > It seems to me an exercise in futility and risks sounding elitist to > > complain about the low cost of vehicles when the social problem lies > > elsewhere. > > > > w > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > > Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:33 PM > > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing > > > Crime > > > > Hi Walter, > > > > Walter Hook wrote: > >> I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't > >> think > > that > >> the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem. > > OK > >> If the vehicle > >> is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe > >> emission standards, those are serious social problems. > > YES > >> Other than this, it is great > >> if the cost of vehicles goes down. > > WHY? > >> However, it will create pressure on the governments to charge > prices > > > >> that more accurately reflect the full social cost of the use of the > >> vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road user charges. > > COULD you explain this, please? > > > >> Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive ones. > > >> I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it > > wasn't > >> picked up. > >> > > THANKS, > > T > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > > Behalf > >> Of Lee Schipper > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM > >> To: bruun@seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or > Mobilizing > > Crime > >> > >> WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show, > > >> today which you Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems > >> as I know where there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita > >> Roychowdry of CSE and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and > >> there were call > ins > >> as well. > >> > >> lee > >> > >> > >> Lee Schipper > >> EMBARQ Fellow > >> EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org > >> and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA > >> www.uctc.net > >> skype: mrmeter > >> +1 510 642 6889 > >> Cell +1 202 262 7476 > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > > >> Behalf Of bruun@seas.upenn.edu > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM > >> To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or > Mobilizing > >> Crime > >> > >> Hassaan > >> > >> The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is > >> going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and > >> livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about > > >> fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution. > >> > >> One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to > >> pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists > > themselves > >> in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to > >> them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a > > very > >> lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of > > their > >> users as well, and bring the ratio up. > >> > >> This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people > > >> haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well > > known, > >> is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars. > >> Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within > >> many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause > >> many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5 > > >> percent auto ownership. > >> > >> On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right > > that > >> the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's > > government > >> works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will > be > >> working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as > >> possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other > >> people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be > > >> class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars. > >> > >> Eric Bruun > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Quoting Hassaan Ghazali : > >> > >> > >>> Friends, > >>> > >>> There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line > >>> every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting > >>> and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's > >>> mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to > > >>> see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I > > >>> don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's > Smart > > > >>> car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably > > >>> one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and > >>> Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the > >>> developed and developing world create the context to despise such an > >>> > >> incredible product? > >> > >>> Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the > >>> masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole > >>> suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, > regulatory > > > >>> oversight, > >>> etc.) are also provided. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> > >>> Hassaan > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Institutional Development Specialist Urban Sector Policy and > >>> Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & Development Department, > >>> Government of the Punjab > >>> > >>> A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan > >>> T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116) > >>> F: 9213585 > >>> M: 0345 455 6016 > >>> Skype: halgazel > >>> http://hghazali.googlepages.com > >>> > >>> *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong* > >>> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > >>> > >> YAHOOGROUPS. > >> > >>> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > >>> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >>> The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot > > >>> post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site > makes > > > >>> it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > >>> > >>> ================================================================ > >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > > >>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > >>> countries (the 'Global South'). > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > >> YAHOOGROUPS. > >> > >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > > to > >> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > >> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post > > to > >> the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > >> like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > >> > >> ================================================================ > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > countries > >> (the 'Global South'). > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > >> YAHOOGROUPS. > >> > >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > > to > > join > >> the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > > yahoogroups > >> version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > >> sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > > can). > >> Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > >> > >> ================================================================ > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > countries > >> (the 'Global South'). > >> > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > > YAHOOGROUPS. > >> > >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > > to > > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post > to > > the > > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like > > you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > >> > >> ================================================================ > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > (the 'Global South'). > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > Todd Edelman > > Director > > Green Idea Factory > > > > Korunni 72 > > CZ-10100 Praha 10 > > Czech Republic > > > > Skype: toddedelman > > ++420 605 915 970 > > ++420 222 517 832 > > > > edelman@greenidea.eu > > http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ > > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman > > > > Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network > > www.worldcarfree.net > > > > CAR is over. If you WANT it. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > > YAHOOGROUPS. > > > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to > > join > > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups > > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > > can). > > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > > YAHOOGROUPS. > > > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to > > join > > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups > > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > > can). > > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > > YAHOOGROUPS. > > > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to > > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post > to > > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > > to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot > > post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes > > it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > > countries (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). > Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > ******************************************************** Anumita Roychowdhury Associate Director,Research and Advocacy Centre for Science and Environment 41, Tughlakabad Institutional Area New Delhi 110062 Tel: 91-11-29955124, 29955125, 29956394 Fax: 91-11-29955879, 29955870 Email: anumita@cseindia.org Website: www.cseindia.org *************************************************** From sutp at sutp.org Mon Jan 28 16:20:57 2008 From: sutp at sutp.org (SUTP Team) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:20:57 +0700 Subject: [sustran] SUTP Newsletter November 2007 - January 2008 Message-ID: <479D8259.60508@sutp.org> Sustainable Urban Transport Project (GTZ SUTP) update November 2007 - January, 2008 GTZ-SUTP wishes all our registered users and subscribers a happy and prosperous new year in 2008! This newsletter gives updates on the SUTP resources, news and events related to our topic of interest. For more information or feedback, please contact sutp@sutp.org, or visit our website at www.sutp.org (China users go to www.sutp.cn ). *****Project related News***** (For greater detail of the news below, please click the link below each item) 2008 Sustainable Transport Award Announced in Washington DC 14 January 2008 (Washington, DC ? January 14, 2008) London and Paris edged out Guatemala City, Guatemala; Eugene, Oregon; and Pereira, Colombia to win the 2008 Sustainable Transport Award, also supported by GTZ SUTP, which was in the evaluation committee. These cities were nominated for the 4th annual international honor for enhancing the sustainability and livability of their community or region by adopting innovative transportation strategies that lessen the impact of climate change by reducing transportation greenhouse and air pollution emissions. Read More: http://www.sutp.org/content/view/1041/1/lang,uk/ GTZ-SUTP participates at the Curb-Air project international workshop in Brussels 12 January 2008 Mr. Carlos F. Pardo, SUTP project coordinator, participated in the "Combating Urban Air Pollution and Climate Change in Asia: Project Opportunities and Role of CDM". The workshop was held at the NH Atlanta Hotel, Brussels, Belgium on the 09th January 2008. Participants from India, China, Japan, Indonesia, Philippines were present at the event. Read More: http://www.sutp.org/content/view/1038/1/lang,uk/ GTZ-SUTP presentations in side event to COP 13, Bali 29 December 2007 Mr. Manfred Breithaupt, GTZ Senior Transport Advisor and SUTP Project Director, presented on the 7th and 8th December at "Getting the climate right for transport", one of the side events at the UN Climate Change Conference , held in Bali, Indonesia. The event was organized by UITP (the International Association of Public Transport with some 3000 members in 90 countries); UIC (the international union of railways for passenger and freight with 170 members on all five continents); the Transport Research Laboratory (a major think tank from UK that advises governments internationally on many transport issues); the GTZ (the German Technical Cooperation) and the Tokyo based Institution for Transport Policy Studies (a research and advisory body). Read More: http://www.sutp.org/content/view/961/1/lang,uk/ GTZ SUTECA - New Forum on Sustainable Urban Transport in Eastern Europe and Central Asia 14 December 2007 As a follow up of the workshops on sustainable urban transport in Plock (2006, 2007) and Tallinn (2007), UNITAR and GTZ SUTP are happy to introduce this newsgroup and webpage as focal point for professionals and decision-makers in the ECA-region in order to facilitate and to enhance the dialogue on sustainable urban transport. The web page www.sutp.org/suteca offers ample space for your contributions, news and information from the region and updates on on-going activities related to sustainable urban transport. Read More: http://www.sutp.org/content/view/979/1/lang,uk/ GTZ supports the EcoMobility Alliance 10 December 2007 The United Nations Climate Change Conference in Bali, Indonesia saw the launch of a Global Alliance for Ecomobility, of which GTZ has also taken part. More than 30 global companies, business and user associations, expert organizations, local governments and United Nations agencies have joined together in a partnership for the integrated promotion of walking, cycling, wheeling and ?passenging? (the use of public transport) in cities. Read More: http://www.sutp.org/content/view/960/1/lang,uk/ GTZ participation at 3rd Transpower Workshop 09 December 2007 Mr. Manfred Breithaupt and Mr. Armin Wagner, both from GTZ, participated in the 3rd TRANSPOWER workshop in Sibiu/Romania on 26-27th November 2007. The workshop focused on non-motorized transport and featured high-level presentations e.g. by Michael Cramer (Member of European Parliament) on "From the Green Paper to cycling tracks ? overcoming political barriers". Read More: http://www.sutp.org/content/view/978/1/lang,uk/ Spanish Translation of Module 7a: Gender and Urban Transport 07 December 2007 The Sustainable Urban Transport Project has published the Spanish translation of the module "Gender and Urban Transport" ("G?nero y Transporte Urbano"), originally written by Mika Kunieda and Aim?e Gauthier. Registered users can download the module from the SUTP website. Read More: http://www.sutp.org/content/view/959/1/lang,uk/ Spanish Translation of Module 5e: Transport and Climate Change 07 December 2007 The Sustainable Urban Transport Project has published the Spanish translation of the module "Transport and Climate Change" (Transporte y Cambio Clim?tico"), originally written by Holger Dalkmann and Charlotte Brannigan. Registered users can download the module from the SUTP website. Read More: http://www.sutp.org/content/view/958/1/lang,uk/ GTZ co organized NMT training in Rio de Janeiro 29 November 2007 GTZ SUTP co organized a training course on Non motorised transport (NMT) along with local organizations Instituto Pereira Passos and Transporte Ativo, and international organizations ITDP (Institute for Transportation and Development Policy) and I-ce (Interface for Cycling Expertise). The training was held during 26 and 27 November, 2007 in Rio de Janeiro, and the 50 participants were mainly from public institutions involved in planning bikeways, environmental institutions and others. Read More: http://www.sutp.org/content/view/945/1/lang,uk/ GTZ-SUTP at a postgraduate course in TU Dresden 26 November 2007 Mr. Manfred Breithaupt, GTZ's senior transport advisor and SUTP's project director, was invited to deliver a guest lecture at a postgraduate course offered by Technical University of Dresden in cooperation with German Ministry of Environment, UNEP and UNESCO. The lecture was delivered on 23rd Nov, 2007 in Dresden to a class of 21 students from 18 countries in Latin America, Asia and Africa. Read More: http://www.sutp.org/content/view/944/1/lang,uk/ Portuguese translation of the Module 5 d: the CDM in the Transport Sector 26 November 2007 GTZ-SUTP released the Portuguese translation of the Module 5d: The CDM in the Transport Sector. The module, authored by Dr. J?rg M. Gr?tter of Gr?tter Consulting, summarises the core issues of CDM transport projects and presents the Transmilenio BRT as a case study. Read More: http://www.sutp.org/content/view/943/1/lang,uk/ GTZ-SUTP conducted training course for Chinese mayors 16 November 2007 GTZ-SUTP conducted a half day training course, on 8th November, 2007, for mayors from large and medium Chinese cities within the programme of the National Training Center for Mayors,in Beijing, China. The course was titled ?Transport and City Development for China?. Topics such as urban transport and urban development, economic impacts of transport, relation between land use and transport, public transport and mass rapid transport were discussed. Read More: http://www.sutp.org/content/view/941/1/lang,uk/ GTZ-SUTP conducted ?Train-the-Trainer? initial course in Beijing, China 16 November 2007 GTZ-SUTP, partner of the Sustainable Urban Mobility in Asia (SUMA) project, successfully concluded its initial course of the ?Train-the-Trainer? program which is an initiative of the the SUMA project in partnership with CAI-Asia and other organizations. The participants, ?Future Trainers?, were preselected professionals on urban transport from India and China. Also a few participants from Pakistan and Philippines participated. In total there were 20 participants. The course was held for two weeks from the 5th to the 16th of November, 2007 in Beijing, China Read More: http://www.sutp.org/content/view/936/1/lang,uk/ GTZ-SUTP Training Course on Sustainable Transport in Beijing, China 14 November 2007 GTZ-SUTP in cooperation with Tsinghua University, Clean Air Initiative (CAI) ? Asia and China Sustainable Transportation Center conducted a 3 day training course titled ?Sustainable Urban Transport (Green Transport) Training Course? for participants from all over China in Beijing, China, from 12th - 14th November, 2007. The course was also supported by the Ministry of Construction, China. Read More: http://www.sutp.org/content/view/935/1/lang,uk/ GTZ-SUTP at the Road Safety Conference in Bangkok, Thailand 16 November 2007 Mr. Manfred Breithaupt, GTZ's senior transport advisor and project director of SUTP, presented at the ?Road Safety on Four Continents? conference held from 14th to 16th November 2007 in Bangkok, Thailand. Read More: http://www.sutp.org/content/view/933/1/lang,uk/ ****Upcoming Events about Sustainable Urban Transport**** *segregated chronologically Date of the event : 28.01.2008 Where the event is : Paris, FR Name of the Event : New Energy Indicators for Transport For more information : http://www.sutp.org/component/option,com_eventlist/Itemid,56/func,details/did,220/lang,uk/ Date of the event : 29.01.2008 Where the event is : France Name of the Event : Mobility and Living Environment For more information : http://www.sutp.org/component/option,com_eventlist/Itemid,56/func,details/did,133/lang,uk/ Date of the event : 06.02.2008 Where the event is : Ljubljana, SI Name of the Event : 2nd European Transportation Research Arena For more information : http://www.sutp.org/component/option,com_eventlist/Itemid,56/func,details/did,134/lang,uk/ Date of the event : 06.02.2008 Where the event is : Versailles, FR Name of the Event : International Congress ATEC-ITS For more information : http://www.sutp.org/component/option,com_eventlist/Itemid,56/func,details/did,195/lang,uk/ Date of the event : 06.02.2008 Where the event is : Nantes, FR Name of the Event : Road Technical Days For more information : http://www.sutp.org/component/option,com_eventlist/Itemid,56/func,details/did,196/lang,uk/ Date of the event : 13.02.2008 Where the event is : Rio Grande do Sul, BR Name of the Event : World Conference on Development of Cities: Democratic innovation and social transformation for inclusive cities in the 21st century For more information : http://www.sutp.org/component/option,com_eventlist/Itemid,56/func,details/did,223/lang,uk/ Date of the event : 13.02.2008 Where the event is : Karlsruhe, DE Name of the Event : IT-TRANS For more information : http://www.sutp.org/component/option,com_eventlist/Itemid,56/func,details/did,197/lang,uk/ Date of the event : 17.02.2008 Where the event is : Adelaide, AU Name of the Event : 3rd International Solar Cities Congress For more information : http://www.sutp.org/component/option,com_eventlist/Itemid,56/func,details/did,168/lang,uk/ More events can be viewed from the link below http://www.sutp.org/component/option,com_eventlist/Itemid,56/lang,uk/ IMPORTANT NOTE If you haven?t registered to our site or were only registered to the previous website, we would be pleased if you can validate your email and account info just by going to http://www.sutp.org/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=registers&lang=en and registering on-line. Alternatively, you can send us the following details to sutp@sutp.org and we?ll send you details of your login information: Name: Organisation: Position: Email address: SUTP username (we suggest using namelastname): Postal Address: City: Country: Thank you very much for your consideration. SUTP TEAM From rivera at iss.nl Mon Jan 28 16:22:57 2008 From: rivera at iss.nl (Roselle Rivera) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 08:22:57 +0100 Subject: [sustran] help In-Reply-To: <20071115030125.1FECE2D3C2@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> References: <20071115030125.1FECE2D3C2@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> Message-ID: unsubscribe ROSELLE LEAH K RIVERA PhD Fellow Human Resource and Local Development Staff Group Institute of Social Studies Kortenaerkade 12 2518 AX The Hague, Netherlands Office Tel: +31 70 4260428 Fax: +31 70 4260507 Mobile: +31 627315444 Please refer to: http://www.iss.nl/content/view/full/2873 for ISS? email disclaimer. From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Mon Jan 28 19:31:11 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:31:11 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Free public information as part of the World City Bike project Message-ID: <005b01c86198$ec6d2bc0$c5478340$@britton@ecoplan.org> Dear Sustran/Global South Friends, This is to draw your attention to a collaborative sustainable transport project that we have been working on quite assiduously over the last six months, and which I think could be a pretty important stepping stone toward a New Mobility Agenda for many of our cities -- the World City Bike project at http://www.citybike.newmobility.org - concerning which I would very much like to have your views and counsel. The basic justification for the project is pretty well set out on the site, so I shall not take your time with it here. But there are really two sets of parallel objectives, of which the second may be of interest to some of you here. The first objective is (a) to make a timely contribution at a time when there are not all that many approaches which are actually able to get started and make a difference on the really important bottom lines, and (b) in parallel hopefully to find a way to pay for it through subscriptions and eventual grants. All that you can see on the site. But it's the second wing of this effort, a responsibility which I take very seriously and which I think more directly concern the members of our fine group here, to which I would like to draw your attention and get your good counsel and ideas on. And that is: how can we be of use on all this to cities and groups without budgets for this sort of thing - despite its potential importance, at least to study and understand as one _possible_ element of a new mobility strategy. (I am well aware as you might imagine of all the barriers that exist in developing cities which may well make this approach not appropriate at this time. You will see a checklist of useful preconditions on the site which makes this quite clear.) But all that said, the concept is nonetheless an excellent one at the very least to reflect on in the context of your city, since it can provide valuable clues about other projects and approaches. To this end, I have tried hard to tailor the site and its contents in such a way that it provides already valuable materials, links and insights on the topic, without requiring any investment on the part of the interested person or group, other than of their time, energy and brains. You will see most of this content under the section at the top left menu entitled 2. Check it out/Public information. I would be grateful to have your thoughts on this, probably best to me personally unless you think it will be of use to the group as a whole. We need this kind of counsel if we are to make something useful of al this for our Global South cities, which after all are well more than half of the problem (and the opportunity). Kind thanks, Eric Britton From sudhir at secon.in Mon Jan 28 19:34:23 2008 From: sudhir at secon.in (Sudhir) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 16:04:23 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Clarkson on road safety Message-ID: <001c01c86199$59bcdfe0$d607a8c0@SA152A> Dear all, Please follow the link http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/jeremy_clarkson/greatest_hits/article3250710.ece?Submitted=true I don't know how these kind of articles get published. What ails our transportation system? The answer can be the logic of Public Transportation is for Poor People. The day we can change this kind of attitute we can have sustianable Transportation. With Regards Sudhir Project Engineer, Highways Div. SECON Pvt Ltd. 147, 7B Road, EPIP, Whitefield, Bangalore 560066 Ph: 080-41197778 (413) From sguttikunda at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 20:40:32 2008 From: sguttikunda at gmail.com (Sarath Guttikunda) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:10:32 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime In-Reply-To: <4799CE5A.15285.2ADB6F@localhost> References: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C011EE269@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> <4799CE5A.15285.2ADB6F@localhost> Message-ID: <683ba1ca0801280340t2b4c59f3i1b4268c8773de2d1@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anumita, Thanks for your elaborate email.. My 2 cents, In an interview with Ratan Tata, he mentioned that goal behind making Nano is family safety and he is inspired to making Nano after seeing a family on a motorcycle. I have seen some arguments in papers and on net, that the largest jump in buying a Nano will come from the MC group. This I doubt. A simple math between MCs and Cars, assuming all gasoline (priced at Rs.50per liter) and a family traveling 30 km per day. MCs give 60 km per lit, which translates to Rs.0.83 per km or Rs.7800 per year per family. If the family jumps to a Nano, assuming a 20 km per lit, math translates to Rs.2.50per km or Rs.23,400 per year per family. One year = 6 working days per week and 52 weeks. On an average, a middle class family with MC in India earns between 10K to 15K. Even if we take the higher end of 15K, this accounts to 4% for MCs and 13% for cars on fuel expenses per year. That is a big change. This does not account for the price difference (~Rs.40K for MC and Rs.125Kfor Nano) and interests they will incur for 5 or 10 years of loans, insurance, and maintenance. And lets not forget Parking - even if it is cheap compared to the developed nations. There is no doubt that with growing demand for cars, Nano will be a hit (similar to Maruti 800 when it arrived in the 80's) - given the production levels are as high as the current demand. What we saw on TV is a glimpse of the car which is still a year away or less from hitting the roads. A good public awareness campaign with numbers will do good - explaining what people will end up spending - both in terms on money and time (leading to more congestion). MCs are by far the largest number in the country and will remain so for the coming decades. On the other side, a good price differential and extra tax for cars, Nano could shift some people away from buying SUVs, who knows :-) Cars are not bad, but more cars on road make it worse. Similarly, there are some discussions on how Nano will cut into the 3Ws and Taxi market, which is also stretching the limits. In the cities like Delhi, Mumbai, Hyderabad, or Bangalore, parking has already become a problem, and more cars will not make it easy. Under a parking cap, 3Ws and Taxis still rule the short trip version. As we argue on cars and MCs, as Anumita pointed out, we have to also understand the lack of "public transport" in place to take the current travel loads. And also the share of diesel on road. We are basically stuck at "Access to Mobility". with regards, Sarath -- Sarath Guttikunda New Delhi, India Phone: +91 9891 315 946 Email: sguttikunda@gmail.com On Jan 25, 2008 11:56 AM, Anumita wrote: > Lee, > > I guess all of us are saying the same thing. Clearly, this fuss over Nano > is just not > about Nano but about cars, all cars ? big, small, cheap, expensive cars. > Nano has > given us the chance to focus the public debate on congestion, oil guzzling > and > emissions and make these concerns more visible. This debate is certainly > very > nuanced. > > -- Look at the Indian paradox today ? super cheap cars like Nano will > expand the > bottom of the market pyramid when rising incomes have already triggered a > steady > drift to bigger cars and SUVs. So the ends are stretched both ways. Car > companies > will continue to compete on costs in a price sensitive market. With frugal > engineering, > weak regulations, fiscal largess to the car companies, even for their > production > facilities, cars can come very cheap. Question is how do we deal with it? > > -- Interestingly, in a car to car comparison nano or any small car can > offer fuel > savings ? certainly more sensible than the bigger, more powerful, high > performance > cars that are about several hundreds per 1000 people in many > industrialized cities. > But the new investments in the Indian auto sector will have to be linked > with stringent > emissions regulations, in-use compliance requirements and efficiency > standards. > > ? But the reason why we are debating Nano, and, are so concerned today, is > because we still have the time, the chance and the alternatives to plan > mobility > systems differently in Indian cities. We already have a reasonable > strength in the > usage of public transport at least in big cities, NMT and walking -- that > if protected > and improved can help us to take an alternative route and avoid huge > emissions and > oil guzzling in Indian cities. Building alternatives at this stage of > motorisation is critical > -- cars may drive growth and aspirations, but they can never meet the > commuting > needs of the urban majority. > > -- But this is where we draw a blank. As in the rest of the world we have > also realized > that to a very great extent mobility management hinges on fiscal measures > (in > addition to providing good public transport). But the wisdom of taxing a > product for > the vice and not just for their values is still quite alien to the Indian > and many other > Asian fiscal regimes. The governments are strongly entrenched in command > and > control strategies. They are still not looking at fiscal measures that can > change > consumer and commuter choices, push cities to make better choices on > transportation options, create alternative sources of revenue and broaden > the > revenue base to fund mobility and technology transition. But this will > require a > different kind of maturity and sophistication in our fiscal regimen. > > -- Greening of taxes will be an even bigger battle in the present context > of > governance and public awareness. Aspirational vote bank never says tax our > cars > and the governance systems in cities are not strong enough to force it > down. > Therefore, just the opposite is happening today. The city governments > penalize buses > by taxing them higher per passenger they carry than cars that carry lot > less and use > up more road space etc. > > -- In Delhi, we are amidst discussions on fuel taxes, parking charges, > road taxes etc. > But resistance is unbelievable. Even if matters move in Delhi it will > still be a drop in > the ocean. The policy mandate on transportation and mobility matters is so > decentralized that it is the ability of all individual cities that will > ultimately decide the > progress on this front. National policies like JNURM etc are still not > strong enough > framework to create a template for the cities. Smaller cities are going to > be even > more badly hit by small car explosion as public policies on public > transport are > virtually non existent for these cities ? just because these cities do not > have high > density travel corridors to justify investment in 'profitable' public > transport. This > means millions are left to organise their own mobility and will happily > graduate from > bicycles and cycle rickshaws to cheap cars. > > -- We need to understand that when it comes to practical planning for > mobility > management in our cities the basic policy tools, databases, policy > indicators of > sustainability etc do not even exist to enable city level planning and > action. Even > public voice remains dormant. This is where we need to move fast to see > some real > action. Otherwise, good ideas will remain good ideas while cars take over. > > Anumita > > ****************************** > > > > ************************** > > Anumita Roychowdhury > > Associate Director,Research and Advocacy > > Centre for Science and Environment > > 41, Tughlakabad Institutional Area > > New Delhi 110062 > > Tel: 91-11-29955124, 29955125, 29956394 > > Fax: 91-11-29955879, 29955870 > > Email: anumita@cseindia.org > > Website: www.cseindia.org > > *************************************************** > > > On 24 Jan 2008 at 10:40, Lee Schipper wrote: > > > Anumita, what do you say? Sounds like we're between a piece of rubber > > and a spare tyre > > > > > > Lee Schipper > > EMBARQ Fellow > > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > > www.embarq.wri.org > > and > > Visiting Scholar > > UC Transportation Center > > Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net > > skype: mrmeter > > +1 510 642 6889 > > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > > > From kennaughkb at yahoo.com.au Tue Jan 29 18:11:28 2008 From: kennaughkb at yahoo.com.au (Kirk Bendall) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:11:28 +1100 (EST) Subject: [sustran] Re: Clarkson on road safety In-Reply-To: <001c01c86199$59bcdfe0$d607a8c0@SA152A> Message-ID: <486027.82619.qm@web34215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Unfortunately the antics of the Top Gear boys are spreading - see http://www21.sbs.com.au/topgear/ Perhaps a 'Pavalova welcome' for Jeremy as an Aussie reprise of his pie in the face? Kirk Sydney Australia --- Sudhir wrote: > Dear all, > > Please follow the link > > http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/jeremy_clarkson/greatest_hits/article3250710.ece?Submitted=true > > I don't know how these kind of articles get > published. > What ails our transportation system? > The answer can be the logic of Public Transportation > is for Poor People. > The day we can change this kind of attitute we can > have sustianable Transportation. > > With Regards > Sudhir > Project Engineer, > Highways Div. > SECON Pvt Ltd. > 147, 7B Road, EPIP, > Whitefield, Bangalore 560066 > Ph: 080-41197778 (413) > -------------------------------------------------------- > > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss > messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to join the real sustran-discuss and get full > membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a > mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes > it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing > arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of > people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport > with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global > South'). > Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail