[sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car

[Lee Schipper]

Thanks Lloyd. 
You know there was a fraud recently perpetrated as someone claimed (and columnist George Will cited) that a Prius used more energy over its lifetime than a hummer.  The clown who made the comparison assumed that a hummer lasted 3 times longer (so he could write off the energy invested in the hummer over more miles) yet somehow used far less fuel/km...Its all in the assumptions and in where the boundaries are drawn!

The manufacturing is a non trivial amount in any case. 

>>> "Lloyd Wright" <lwright at vivacities.org> 7/11/2007 4:34 PM >>>
Hi Lee,

The numbers I quoted are from a UK study by Martin Michaelis, which was
based on a cradle to grave approach (including the mining of aluminum
and/or steel from Australia, Nigeria, etc.).  Perhaps the Volvo / VW
numbers are based on what happens inside their factory walls.  But given
the number of variables, I am sure it is highly dependent on the
assumptions made.  I would be keen on any studies / citations that you
might have.

In case you are interested, I am ataching a couple summary pages from
the German study on solid waste from manufacturing and disposal.

Whether manufacturing/disposal is 15-20% or 20-30% of total lifetime CO2
emissions, I am sure we would agree that it is a non-trivial amount.

Thanks,

Lloyd

-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Schipper [mailto:SCHIPPER at wri.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 1:43 PM
To: 'Global 'South' Sustainable Transport'; lwright at vivacities.org 
Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car


I think I disagree with Lloyd's number-- a rule of thumb is about 10% of
the lifetime energy of car goes for the car, 5% for the refined fuel and
the rest to run the car.  The calculation is obviously very sensitive to
the fuel economy of the car (which is roughly inverse to the weight, and
therefore to the amount of energy required to create all that weight) as
well as to the lifetime of the car expressed in total km run. Perhaps
the German EPA has different assumptions, but ones I poured over once
with both Volvo and VW (in 1997) came out with numbers like those I
quoted above.

For the US, cars are 35% heavier than those in Europe, but they are run
35% more and use 35% more fuel/km, and they are not forced-retired as
some countries do when cars get old and phunky. Hence  the relationship
Lloyd expressed -- a smaller share of lifetime emissions is bound up in
the car in the US than in Europe -- is true

At the end of the day it comes down to what the car is made of, and
whether the masses of aluminium and steel are made mostly with coal
(like in Australia, where the electricity for the Aluminium is
coal-fired), natural gas, or some combination of those two plus hydro
and nuclear (the Swedish case). IF steel or Al is imported that makes it
even more complicated.

My best guess is more like 15% for the US and 20% of a much smaller
total number for Europe.