From mobility at igc.org Fri Mar 1 02:10:04 2002 From: mobility at igc.org (mobility) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:10:04 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Mumba requires a new terminus for upcountry trains. References: <004801c1ab14$438ffcd0$02c8c8c8@solar> <005901c1abb7$4a9aac20$3226020a@im.eth.net> Message-ID: <3C7E646C.972627E3@igc.org> Kisan, It is true that the World Bank is moving forward with the impending World Bank loan for Mumbai. I've reviewed briefly the below materials and your letter to President Wolfensohn of the World Bank. It seems to me that the World Bank has been reasonably good about at least forcing the MMDA to hold some sort of public hearing where you got some good information. I think the tone of your communications to the World Bank seems a little bit too hostile given what we are talking about here. I mean, the World Bank is not proposing to blast a big highway through the middle of Mumbai, nor are they planning to finance the numerous disastrous fly-overs that the MMDA is constructing, and behind the scenes they have been quite critical of them. Before needlessly antagonizing a possible ally on many of your concerns, it would help if you would clarify the following points. Then maybe the Sustran Steering Committee could speak with one voice on these issues in a constructive way. a. are you against any World Bank loan for mumbai? My impression is that the vast majority of funds ($600 million!) is directed at improving rail services, which given Bombay's structure would seem to be desperately needed. Isn't this a good thing? If you basically support the loan, shouldn't the tone of your communications with the Bank and the MMDA be less hostile? If you are against the whole thing, can you explain to me why? b. you are against the inclusion of some road elements. My understanding has been that the road elements are intended to separate surface-level road and rail traffic. This seems quite reasonable. Am I missing something here? I mean, the World Bank isnt proposing to fund these 50 flyovers that Mumbai and many other Indian cities are building, quite disasterously. c. You feel that the road elements included should have sidewalks, as should many other streets in the project area, and that they are required in national policy and not being implemented. This is a valid concern and the World Bank SHOULD be an ally on this issue, given the statements in their new Urban Transport Strategy. These comments on the actual proposed designs being hostile to pedestrians the project managers at the World Bank should be able to address. I have forwarded your concerns to a few people inside the Bank. d. Have the railway improvements in the loan been completely worked out or are they still under negotiation? If still under negotiation, do we NGOs have any credible rail experts who could voice a professional opinion on some of these issues that would be seen as credible by the World Bank and the MMDA? e. A big focus of the World Bank has been to get this new institutional structure where the municipality has more control over commuter rail and the national railway has less. I don't know the status of this institutional change. Do you know -if this new institution has been created, and - is it in the long run going to help improve commuter rail services? best Walter Hook kisan mehta wrote: > Dear Sustran colleagues, Kanu Kamdar's suggestion for achieving > sustainablemobility in Mumbai deserves serious > consideration. Situation is that the user of the Island City is > changingfrom housing to non-housing with the result that thepattern of > long distance railway traffic has as wellchanged drastically. No need > to start and terminatethese trains in the crowded Island City. > Tracksreleased can be utilised to more suburban trains.Suburban trains > provide 6 million journeys and alongwith the public road service (4.5 > million journeys)provide the maximum and affordable mobility. Faster > and more frequent suburban trains help inreducing suffocating crowding > in Mumbai. Let ushope that his suggestions are taken seriously bythe > authorities. Mumbai is now working on MumbaiUrban Transport Project. > Augmentation andrationalising of public transport only can > providerelief to Mumbai residents. Building roads withoutpavement and > flyovers only increase the hardshipof people. Best wishes. Priya Salvi > and Kisan Mehta > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Harshad Kamdar > To: sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:03 PM > Subject: [sustran] Mumba requires a new terminus for > upcountry trains. > On Jan 21 the above item was discussed in our group. While > many of us in Bombay are opposing flyovers and roads over > the sea to speed up traffic, one fundamental existing > resource is being missed. Our long distance trains on the C. > Rly, W. Rly & the newly formed Konkan Rly. are terminated in > South Bombay at the Mumbai Central (W Rly.) and at CST (C. > Rly.). These trains carry hardly 10% passengers, most of > them getting out at earlier suburban stations. Thus these > outstation trains occupy vital tracks which can be put to > use for commuters. Where shall we then terminate upcountry > trains ?There is a tract of 4 sq. kms of land between the > Matunga & Matunga Road & Dadar Central & Western, belonging > to the Indian Railways, which is used today for a C Rly > Workshop and for various offices and Residential buildings & > Recreation Club etc. These are not essential to be located > on this prime land. These can be locted elsewhere and the > land relesed can be used for locating both the terminii and > will provide additional space for adequate parking and other > essential services. While the major rehabilitation is > planned local loop lines can be developed for trains from C > Rly to W Rly and viceversa. The two lines released between > Dadar and respective terminus can be used for these loop > lines and trains from Western suburbs can proceed directly > to CST and viceversaFor the CST terminus, expansion can be > developed at the former goods sheds at Carnac Bunder & Wadi > bunder which are idling. One has to give a new thought to > this proposal which has the potential of increasing train > frequency on both railways to 2 mins.This will also reduce > the hardship of passengers changing from one terminus to the > other. As it is 80% of the passengers alight in the suburbs > or at Dadar.It will also give space for additional trains in > the peak morning evening traffic and ease commuter density > on trains and overall encourage more motorists to use rail > commutng Kanu H. J. KamdarPrakruti & Save Bombay > Commmiteehjk@rincon.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/private/sustran-discuss/attachments/20020228/7498941d/attachment.htm From BruunB at aol.com Fri Mar 1 02:29:29 2002 From: BruunB at aol.com (BruunB@aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:29:29 EST Subject: [sustran] Re: Bus and rail (fwd) Message-ID: Additional issues to consider off of the top of my head include 1) the peaking characteristics of travel -- rail is much better at meeting large surges in demand since high frequency can be maintained all day long at the same operator cost, only the consist size changes. 2) I have heard the Sao Paolo busways are atrocious to be located near. The wall of buses is very noisy and severs the corridor, much like freeways have done to the US. 3) The type of alignment used. Once building an elevated section or tunnel anyway, the case for rail becomes much stronger. 4) The number of corridors that need improvement. Cities that are more linear with with fewer corridors can better afford to concentrate investment than ones that have a sprawling grid to cover. 5) The higher the income level of passengers you are trying to attract and the higher the income level of the vehicle operators, the more sense rail makes. Eric Bruun From sagaris at terra.cl Fri Mar 1 06:34:58 2002 From: sagaris at terra.cl (Lake Sagaris) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:34:58 -0300 Subject: [sustran] Re: Bus and rail (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020228183435.00a72ec0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Interesting observations, Eric, especially the last. Thanks. Lake Sagaris Living City (Ciudad Viva) Santiago At 12:29 PM 2/28/02 -0500, you wrote: >Additional issues to consider off of the top of my head include >1) the peaking characteristics of travel -- rail is much better at meeting >large surges in demand since high frequency can be maintained all day long at >the same operator cost, only the consist size changes. >2) I have heard the Sao Paolo busways are atrocious to be located near. The >wall of buses is very noisy and severs the corridor, much like freeways have >done to the US. >3) The type of alignment used. Once building an elevated section or tunnel >anyway, the case for rail becomes much stronger. >4) The number of corridors that need improvement. Cities that are more linear >with with fewer corridors can better afford to concentrate investment than >ones that have a sprawling grid to cover. >5) The higher the income level of passengers you are trying to attract and >the higher the income level of the vehicle operators, the more sense rail >makes. > >Eric Bruun From brent.efford at techmedia.co.nz Fri Mar 1 07:53:00 2002 From: brent.efford at techmedia.co.nz (Brent Efford) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:53:00 +1300 Subject: [sustran] RE: sustran-discuss V1 #985 In-Reply-To: <200202281700.CAA24087@mail.jca.apc.org> Message-ID: <000401c1c0aa$abea31f0$0161fea9@techmedia> A significant example of the "trojan horse" use of busways is Auckland, New Zealand, where busways are being promoted by an anti-rail coalition backing extensive freeway construction - i.e. as a sop to pro-public transport sentiment without seriously challenging the car-dependent paradigm. There are some busways already, using the shoulders of existing freeways, but they come to an end where there is real competition for road width, like over the harbour bridge. To be in any way comparable to rail systems, busways would need to provide an unobstructed right of way end-to-end. Busways can provide fast transit through suburban areas but seem to exacerbate congestion problems downtown where the buses have to mix with ordinary traffic, and become congestion agents in their own right. Compare central Melbourne, where over-all congestion is quite low and few bus routes enter the central city (and the trams stick obediently to the middle of the street) with Brisbane or Sydney. Brent Efford Co-ordinator, Transport 2000+ NZ PO Box 2626, Wellington 6015 New Zealand -----Original Message----- From: owner-sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org [mailto:owner-sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org] Sent: Friday, 1 March 2002 6:01 a.m. To: sustran-discuss-digest@jca.apc.org Subject: sustran-discuss V1 #985 * To leave, send the message UNSUBSCRIBE sustran-discuss-digest * to majordomo@mail.jca.ax.apc.org sustran-discuss Friday, March 1 2002 Volume 01 : Number 985 In this issue: [sustran] Re: Bus and rail (fwd) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:06:31 +0800 From: Craig Townsend Subject: [sustran] Re: Bus and rail (fwd) Not including externalities and long term costs and benefits of operations, there are additional benefits to construction of rail. Supply of E & M equipment and steel contribute toward heavy industrialization and the provision of high skill, well paid jobs, and technological spin-offs: this has been done in Japan and more recently in Korea. The benefits are such that industrialized nations are willing to offer loans on very favourable terms in order to build rail systems in industrializing nations. Bangkok's subway is under construction with a loan from the Japan Bank for International Cooperation (formerly OECF) with an interest rate of 0.75% for 40 years and a 10 year grace period. I would be interested to know how the costs of capital for construction differ between rail and busway. Some of the comparisons being made appear to be between at-grade busways and elevated rail. I would suggest that this is an inappropriate comparison unless the rights of way required are really that different. How do the rights of way compare between busway systems in operation versus LRT systems in operation? I too don't like getting into discussions pitting one form of transit aganist another. As Lloyd suggests, the way around this is to state the values and objectives and then choose appropriate means of working toward those objectives. Thus, busways should be supported if they are part of a package of measures supporting public transport and non-motorized transport. However, they are being used as a "trojan horse" to make massive road building more politically palatable in some places. My concern for the enthusiasm over urban busways is not that they perform poorly, but that they are promoted as a means of facilitating an eventual shift to a road based, private, and motorized transport system. (I should have stated that assumption explicitly in my previous message.) Alan suggests that busways can be "picked up" and moved: I doubt that, but I would be interested to hear of specific cases. I suspect that they will be converted into road space for private vehicles in the future, which is why those of us concerned about sustainable transport should be wary of them in the first place! At 05:58 PM 27/02/02 +0530, you wrote: >Contd. > >Correction Please read "Population 8-10 millon or more" in place of >population 80-100 million or more" in my earlier mail. >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:10:17 +0530 (IST) >From: Prof S L Dhingra >To: sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org >Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: Bus and rail ________________________________________________ Craig Townsend Institute for Sustainability & Technology Policy Murdoch University South Street, Murdoch Perth, Western Australia 6150 tel: (61 8) 9360 6278 fax: (61 8) 9360 6421 email: townsend@central.murdoch.edu.au ------------------------------ End of sustran-discuss V1 #985 ****************************** From kerry.wood at paradise.net.nz Fri Mar 1 12:04:22 2002 From: kerry.wood at paradise.net.nz (Kerry Wood) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:04:22 +1300 Subject: [sustran] Re: Bus and rail (fwd) References: Message-ID: <3C7EEFB1.1D18D6D5@paradise.net.nz> More issues to consider 1) Capacity Some of the busway capacities quoted are greater than light rail can manage. That's great if you can do it, but it might be a good idea to think about why. Two hundred passengers in each unit of a triple LRV at 90 seconds headway = 24 000 pass/h. It may look OK on paper, but the units need to be no longer than a city block and the cross traffic needs to get a look-in. More practically, a LRV can carry 400 passengers and clear a junction from a standing start in 12 seconds. Call it 18 seconds of junction time, and allow for both directions and say 2 minutes headway. On this basis light rail is using 30% of total junction time (both directions), for a capacity of 12 000 pass/hr. Near-absolute priority for light rail is possible. Eight 50-passenger buses will need a lot more than 18 seconds, even if they can manage a neat convoy (I am still thinking how to work out their junction time). Random arrivals in say 80-passenger bendy-buses will need 150 buses an hour, or 300 buses/hr for both directions. Allow say 12 seconds of junction time each and the buses will need just 100% of junction time, or a little bit less allowing for queuing and simultaneous arrivals. Near-absolute priority is not an option: it is essential. On-street light rail is unlikely to be dearer than buses on an overpass. And very unlikely to be noisier. Make your own assumptions and plug in your own numbers, but do the sums. 2) Alignment width Bus lane width is much the same as light rail for guided buses, greater for manual guidance, or much greater if stopping bays or overtaking lanes are needed. A paper by G Gardner ("A study of high capacity busways in developing countries," Proc Inst Civ Engrs, Transp 95, 8/1992) shows a Sao Paulo layout as 3 lanes wide, plus the stop platform: Allow say 2.5 m for the platform, 3.5 m for the stopping lane and 2 x 4.0 m for through lanes (extra width to get bendy buses through the S-bend between offset platforms for the two directions) and the minimum width needed is about 14 m. Gardner shows another layout, from Belo Horizonte, which does not use offsetting: Say 2 x 2.5 m platforms, 2 x 4.0 m laybys and 2 x 3.5 m through lanes, or about 20 m. The equivalent width for light rail might be 2.5 m + 2 x 3.5 m, or 9.5 m for offset stop platforms, or 12 m without offsetting. 3) Continuity Obviously, light rail tracks have to be continuous. Bus routes have to be continuous too, but it is less obvious that the priority needs to be as continuous as for light rail. Political pressure to give up on continuity might be very hard to resist. This may not matter too much in the suburbs, but in the city centre it is a very different matter. The city-centre continuity of the Ottawa busways was never more than an underground pipe-dream, and now Ottawa is considering light rail. 4) Journey time This is the objective, at least in richer cities. If public transport journey time effectively controls the speed of traffic (Martin Mogridge's theory: I have found some evidence for it in the ISTP data) this this is what matters. It is probably NOT what matters in all cities, but it seems to be important in a lot of cities, large and small. And fast, reliable journeys need good interchanges, which in turn need good timekeeping, which needs a delay-free route, which needs high priority on most or all junctions. -- Kerry Wood Sustainable Transport Consulting Engineer From lfwright at usa.net Fri Mar 1 22:59:02 2002 From: lfwright at usa.net (Lloyd Wright) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:59:02 EST Subject: [sustran] Re: [[sustran] Re: Bus and rail (fwd)] Message-ID: <20020301135902.5215.qmail@cpdvg100.netaddress.usa.net> As I previsously stated, I do not wish to engage in a contest between public transit options since I would hope that the relative merits can be weighed by each municipality in a transparent and fair way. And also, I think the debate on the particular technology obscures more important issues like customer service and general political will towards supporting public transit. However, I thought it would be worthwhile to address a few issues that have been raised. 1. Image A common point raised in the favour of rail is that it has a superior image, and thus has greater potential to draw a wider base of customers, including high-income groups. This would certainly appear to be the case when rail is compared to a typical diesel-belching, trapped-in-congestion municipal bus system. A more relevant comparison, though, would be to a system like Bogota’s TransMilenio. Such systems appear as “sexy” and visually attractive as any metro system in the world. I do not believe the people of Bogota, or Curitiba or Quito, feel in any way that they have an inferior product. And by the looks of the clientele, the systems seem to attract a large number of well-suited, upwardly mobile professionals. Having said this, though, I would agree that image and market draw is a legitimate issue. And it remains to be seen if the high-quality bus systems in developed-nation cities like Brisbane, Honolulu and Bradford can draw people out of their cars. But then again, metros face the same issue. 2. Noise, Community, and Grade Separation It was mentioned that busways can be noisy and can separate communities. Yes, these are certainly issues of concern and hopefully can be ameliorated with good design. However, I am not sure that rail is exempt from these issues. It seems like a rail line in your backyard creates noise and can cut through your sense of community. And some of the solutions are similar. Quieter buses, such as the Electric Trolebus in Quito, are one option. Additionally, there is sometimes the presumption that separating grades is something that only rail can do. Cities like Seattle and Boston have gone underground with their bus lines. Quito uses underpasses to avoid conflicts at intersections. Certainly there are costs to consider here, but I am not sure the concepts are exclusive to rail. 3. Operating costs It was suggested that rail performs better with respect to operating costs, especially since its operating costs are the same throughout the day, including peak times. I am not sure I understand this. It seems like labour and fuel costs go up with use regardless of the type of system. I have also not seen any advantage to rail in terms of operating costs in Latin America. The majority of the bus rapid transit systems (Bogota, Curitiba, Porto Alegre) run with zero operating subsidies and relatively low fares. Porto Alegre, Brazil is a good example because it has both a bus rapid transit system and a metro rail system. The bus rapid transit lines receive no public monies. Each rail fare must receive a public subsidy of 69% to break even. 4. The Trojan Horse Strategy and Industrial Policy A point was made that rail offers much in terms of industrial policy, namely, high skilled, well paying jobs and the introduction of new technologies. It has also been argued that governments like Japan (I would also add France) will provide financing at very favourable terms. Well, part of the reason Japan and France are aggressively marketing these systems is that it does create jobs and technological advantages, but mostly in Japan and France. The capital-intensive nature and low economies of scale of rail production tends to make it difficult to disperse manufacturing, and thus keeping jobs and technology in the north. Bus manufacturing, and its associated jobs and technology, is common in many countries. Mercedes Benz has a plant in Sao Paulo, and Volvo, in response to the success of Curitiba, manufactures from Curitiba. Marco Polo now manufactures in Colombia in response to the success and market draw of Bogota’s TransMilenio. Also, many bus manufacturing firms are indigenous companies creating local solutions to local needs. I would also point out that you can find the same favourable financing deals from governments with successful bus manufacturers. Municipalities should first decide what system and technology is best for them, and then seek out the best terms and offers. However, in many places, the opposite is happening. Sales people dazzle municipal staff with their technology and successfully lock out competitive ideas. These countries likewise are partaking in a form of the Trojan Horse strategy. An initial line of a technology is built on highly subsidized terms. The municipality is now committed to a particular technology, and the expectation is that future lines will opt for the same technology, albeit at non-subsidized prices. A few examples from Latin America: Medellin, Colombia’s second largest city, opted for a European-built metro rail system several years back. The system came with the usual array of subsidized financing. However, it has been a quite costly decision for the city. The high operating costs mean that the system runs perpetually with taxpayer subsidies. And now that the favourable financing terms are no longer available, the city cannot not afford to expand as transit needs have grown. With the successful Bogota TransMilenio system now in full view, Medellin is looking to extend its metro system using bus rapid transit. The French government recently funded studies into the form and design of a public transit system for Panama City. The study concluded that the only technology meeting the city’s needs was a French-built light rail system. Bus rapid transit was eliminated from consideration because the consultants told the city that bus rapid transit cannot carry more than 6000 passengers per hour per direction, which clearly contradicts international experience. The French government is offering $60 million in subsidies for system construction, which will take the price of the one line down to $12 million per kilometre. Like Medellin, though, future lines will probably not receive this subsidy, and the tax payers of Panama will be paying rather large sums for an over-priced system. If one is selling a particular technology, then crafting the argument and shaping the debate to your product is a legitimate part of marketing. And I am not necessarily criticising governments like Japan and France since they may well be acting in the best interests of their industrial firms. However, as an NGO actor, I would like to see municipalities have all the options before them in a fully transparent manner, and make the decision on a number of criteria including capital costs, operating costs, and system performance. It is terrible that pro-auto groups in countries like New Zealand are using bus systems as a means to further road construction for private vehicles and not as a means to better public transport. However, this should not be a reason to oppose the consideration of improved bus services. Rail firms will win their share of the contracts without any additional help. Bus rapid transit should be an option on the table and should be given equal consideration. Best wishes, Lloyd Lloyd Wright Director, Latin America Institute for Transportation & Development Policy Email LFWright@usa.net ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 From howes at emirates.net.ae Sat Mar 2 02:02:46 2002 From: howes at emirates.net.ae (Alan P Howes) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 21:02:46 +0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: Bus and rail (fwd) In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20020228094955.009fe6d0@central.murdoch.edu.au> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020228094955.009fe6d0@central.murdoch.edu.au> Message-ID: Do I hear a conspiracy theorist? I would be interested to hear of these places where Craig considers that busways are a trojan horse for more road provision. From all I understand, this is not the case in Europe, or in North or South America, and would not be here in Dubai either - assuming we ever got any busway built. His points about costs of capital _may_ be fair, and I certainly agree that capital costs should be compared on a like-for-like basis, wrt elevated, at-grade etc. I did not really mean that the busway infrastructure can be picked up and used elsewhere - but the buses certainly can, and they can easily use part of the existing busway plus street running where appropriate. The ability to operate off the busway onto the ordinary street system is a big bus way advantage. On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:06:31 +0800, Craig Townsend wrote to sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org: >Not including externalities and long term costs and benefits of operations, >there are additional benefits to construction of rail. Supply of E & M >equipment and steel contribute toward heavy industrialization and the >provision of high skill, well paid jobs, and technological spin-offs: this >has been done in Japan and more recently in Korea. The benefits are such >that industrialized nations are willing to offer loans on very favourable >terms in order to build rail systems in industrializing nations. Bangkok's >subway is under construction with a loan from the Japan Bank for >International Cooperation (formerly OECF) with an interest rate of 0.75% >for 40 years and a 10 year grace period. I would be interested to know how >the costs of capital for construction differ between rail and busway. > >Some of the comparisons being made appear to be between at-grade busways >and elevated rail. I would suggest that this is an inappropriate comparison >unless the rights of way required are really that different. How do the >rights of way compare between busway systems in operation versus LRT >systems in operation? > >I too don't like getting into discussions pitting one form of transit >aganist another. As Lloyd suggests, the way around this is to state the >values and objectives and then choose appropriate means of working toward >those objectives. Thus, busways should be supported if they are part of a >package of measures supporting public transport and non-motorized >transport. However, they are being used as a "trojan horse" to make massive >road building more politically palatable in some places. My concern for the >enthusiasm over urban busways is not that they perform poorly, but that >they are promoted as a means of facilitating an eventual shift to a road >based, private, and motorized transport system. (I should have stated that >assumption explicitly in my previous message.) Alan suggests that busways >can be "picked up" and moved: I doubt that, but I would be interested to >hear of specific cases. I suspect that they will be converted into road >space for private vehicles in the future, which is why those of us >concerned about sustainable transport should be wary of them in the first >place! -- Alan Howes, Dubai, UAE (Otherwise Perthshire, Scotland) alaninthegulf@yahoo.co.uk Professional website (Needs Updating!): http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/alanhowes/ From BruunB at aol.com Sat Mar 2 10:08:40 2002 From: BruunB at aol.com (BruunB@aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:08:40 EST Subject: [sustran] More on Bus and rail (fwd)] Message-ID: <6c.184e240e.29b18018@aol.com> I have inserted some brief comments below. Eric In a message dated 3/1/02 9:03:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, lfwright@usa.net writes: << ubj: [sustran] Re: [[sustran] Re: Bus and rail (fwd)] Date: 3/1/02 9:03:30 AM Eastern Standard Time From: lfwright@usa.net (Lloyd Wright) Sender: owner-sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org Reply-to: sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org To: sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org As I previsously stated, I do not wish to engage in a contest between public transit options since I would hope that the relative merits can be weighed by each municipality in a transparent and fair way. And also, I think the debate on the particular technology obscures more important issues like customer service and general political will towards supporting public transit. However, I thought it would be worthwhile to address a few issues that have been raised. 1. Image A common point raised in the favour of rail is that it has a superior image, and thus has greater potential to draw a wider base of customers, including high-income groups. This would certainly appear to be the case when rail is compared to a typical diesel-belching, trapped-in-congestion municipal bus system. A more relevant comparison, though, would be to a system like Bogota?s TransMilenio. Such systems appear as ?sexy? and visually attractive as any metro system in the world. I do not believe the people of Bogota, or Curitiba or Quito, feel in any way that they have an inferior product. And by the looks of the clientele, the systems seem to attract a large number of well-suited, upwardly mobile professionals. Having said this, though, I would agree that image and market draw is a legitimate issue. And it remains to be seen if the high-quality bus systems in developed-nation cities like Brisbane, Honolulu and Bradford can draw people out of their cars. But then again, metros face the same issue. >> It is not always just image, sometimes there is a difference in speed and comfort. Buses can be very good, rail can be very bad, but at their best, rail can reach higher standards. That is my only point. 2. Noise, Community, and Grade Separation It was mentioned that busways can be noisy and can separate communities. Yes, these are certainly issues of concern and hopefully can be ameliorated with good design. However, I am not sure that rail is exempt from these issues. It seems like a rail line in your backyard creates noise and can cut through your sense of community. And some of the solutions are similar. Quieter buses, such as the Electric Trolebus in Quito, are one option. Additionally, there is sometimes the presumption that separating grades is something that only rail can do. Cities like Seattle and Boston have gone underground with their bus lines. Quito uses underpasses to avoid conflicts at intersections. Certainly there are costs to consider here, but I am not sure the concepts are exclusive to rail. >> No argument that rail can be loud as well. But lets look at BART in San Francisco to state a clear case. It has 10 car trains every 15 minutes on most lines with 5 minutes in the peak. If this were to be done with buses, the buses would be coming by every few seconds. This makes a difference. 3. Operating costs It was suggested that rail performs better with respect to operating costs, especially since its operating costs are the same throughout the day, including peak times. I am not sure I understand this. It seems like labour and fuel costs go up with use regardless of the type of system. I have also not seen any advantage to rail in terms of operating costs in Latin America. The majority of the bus rapid transit systems (Bogota, Curitiba, Porto Alegre) run with zero operating subsidies and relatively low fares. Porto Alegre, Brazil is a good example because it has both a bus rapid transit system and a metro rail system. The bus rapid transit lines receive no public monies. Each rail fare must receive a public subsidy of 69% to break even. >> I am not just suggesting the difference in operating costs, its a fact. If one actually has to cost out a schedule based on lengthening consists versus adding more vehicles, the latter costs more. At least this is true with the cost structure of the richer countries. Cities with good rail systems tend to also have better bus frequencies, since the trunk line is relatively cheap to operate while buses run shorter connecting routes. 4. The Trojan Horse Strategy and Industrial Policy A point was made that rail offers much in terms of industrial policy, namely, high skilled, well paying jobs and the introduction of new technologies. It has also been argued that governments like Japan (I would also add France) will provide financing at very favourable terms. Well, part of the reason Japan and France are aggressively marketing these systems is that it does create jobs and technological advantages, but mostly in Japan and France. The capital-intensive nature and low economies of scale of rail production tends to make it difficult to disperse manufacturing, and thus keeping jobs and technology in the north. Bus manufacturing, and its associated jobs and technology, is common in many countries. Mercedes Benz has a plant in Sao Paulo, and Volvo, in response to the success of Curitiba, manufactures from Curitiba. Marco Polo now manufactures in Colombia in response to the success and market draw of Bogota?s TransMilenio. Also, many bus manufacturing firms are indigenous companies creating local solutions to local needs. I would also point out that you can find the same favourable financing deals from governments with successful bus manufacturers. Municipalities should first decide what system and technology is best for them, and then seek out the best terms and offers. However, in many places, the opposite is happening. Sales people dazzle municipal staff with their technology and successfully lock out competitive ideas. These countries likewise are partaking in a form of the Trojan Horse strategy. An initial line of a technology is built on highly subsidized terms. The municipality is now committed to a particular technology, and the expectation is that future lines will opt for the same technology, albeit at non-subsidized prices. A few examples from Latin America: Medellin, Colombia?s second largest city, opted for a European-built metro rail system several years back. The system came with the usual array of subsidized financing. However, it has been a quite costly decision for the city. The high operating costs mean that the system runs perpetually with taxpayer subsidies. And now that the favourable financing terms are no longer available, the city cannot not afford to expand as transit needs have grown. With the successful Bogota TransMilenio system now in full view, Medellin is looking to extend its metro system using bus rapid transit. The French government recently funded studies into the form and design of a public transit system for Panama City. The study concluded that the only technology meeting the city?s needs was a French-built light rail system. Bus rapid transit was eliminated from consideration because the consultants told the city that bus rapid transit cannot carry more than 6000 passengers per hour per direction, which clearly contradicts international experience. The French government is offering $60 million in subsidies for system construction, which will take the price of the one line down to $12 million per kilometre. Like Medellin, though, future lines will probably not receive this subsidy, and the tax payers of Panama will be paying rather large sums for an over-priced system. If one is selling a particular technology, then crafting the argument and shaping the debate to your product is a legitimate part of marketing. And I am not necessarily criticising governments like Japan and France since they may well be acting in the best interests of their industrial firms. However, as an NGO actor, I would like to see municipalities have all the options before them in a fully transparent manner, and make the decision on a number of criteria including capital costs, operating costs, and system performance. It is terrible that pro-auto groups in countries like New Zealand are using bus systems as a means to further road construction for private vehicles and not as a means to better public transport. However, this should not be a reason to oppose the consideration of improved bus services. Rail firms will win their share of the contracts without any additional help. Bus rapid transit should be an option on the table and should be given equal consideration. Best wishes, Lloyd Lloyd Wright Director, Latin America Institute for Transportation & Development Policy Email LFWright@usa.net >> From APHOWES at dm.gov.ae Sat Mar 2 13:03:10 2002 From: APHOWES at dm.gov.ae (Alan Patrick Howes) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:03:10 +0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: Bus and rail (fwd) Message-ID: Indeed. And presumably the converse also applies? Driver (operator) costs are hardy an issue here, and in less developed countries even less so. And the attractiveness of rail to higher income riders is something of a cultural issue. In some parts of the world (eg parts of South America and SE Asia, Turkey), rail has a pretty negative image, while in Europe it is very much the reverse. -- Alan P Howes, Special Transport Advisor, Dubai Municipality Public Transport Department aphowes@dm.gov.ae Tel: +971 4 286 1616 ext 214 Mobile: +971 50 5989661 > -----Original Message----- > From: Lake Sagaris [mailto:sagaris@terra.cl] > Sent: Fri, March 01, 2002 1:35 AM > To: sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: Bus and rail (fwd) > > > Interesting observations, Eric, especially the last. Thanks. > > Lake Sagaris > Living City (Ciudad Viva) > Santiago > > At 12:29 PM 2/28/02 -0500, you wrote: > >Additional issues to consider off of the top of my head include > >1) the peaking characteristics of travel -- rail is much > better at meeting > >large surges in demand since high frequency can be > maintained all day long at > >the same operator cost, only the consist size changes. > >2) I have heard the Sao Paolo busways are atrocious to be > located near. The > >wall of buses is very noisy and severs the corridor, much > like freeways have > >done to the US. > >3) The type of alignment used. Once building an elevated > section or tunnel > >anyway, the case for rail becomes much stronger. > >4) The number of corridors that need improvement. Cities > that are more linear > >with with fewer corridors can better afford to concentrate > investment than > >ones that have a sprawling grid to cover. > >5) The higher the income level of passengers you are trying > to attract and > >the higher the income level of the vehicle operators, the > more sense rail > >makes. > > > >Eric Bruun > > From APHOWES at dm.gov.ae Sat Mar 2 13:12:44 2002 From: APHOWES at dm.gov.ae (Alan Patrick Howes) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:12:44 +0400 Subject: [sustran] Bus and rail Message-ID: Obviously for Busways / BRT to be successful it needs to be segregated from general traffic downtown. Anything else indicates lack of political nerve. A generalised, idealised busway network might have - - exclusive RoW in downtown, either elevated, or in subway (may need dual-mode buses) or perhaps in Europe at the edge of a rail RoW, - median or shoulder bus lanes on major radials - mixed-traffic running within suburban areas. -- Alan P Howes, Special Transport Advisor, Dubai Municipality Public Transport Department aphowes@dm.gov.ae Tel: +971 4 286 1616 ext 214 Mobile: +971 50 5989661 > -----Original Message----- > From: Brent Efford [mailto:brent.efford@techmedia.co.nz] > Sent: Fri, March 01, 2002 2:53 AM > To: sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] RE: sustran-discuss V1 #985 > > > A significant example of the "trojan horse" use of busways is > Auckland, New > Zealand, where busways are being promoted by an anti-rail > coalition backing > extensive freeway construction - i.e. as a sop to pro-public transport > sentiment without seriously challenging the car-dependent > paradigm. There > are some busways already, using the shoulders of existing > freeways, but they > come to an end where there is real competition for road > width, like over the > harbour bridge. > > To be in any way comparable to rail systems, busways would > need to provide > an unobstructed right of way end-to-end. Busways can provide > fast transit > through suburban areas but seem to exacerbate congestion > problems downtown > where the buses have to mix with ordinary traffic, and become > congestion > agents in their own right. Compare central Melbourne, where over-all > congestion is quite low and few bus routes enter the central > city (and the > trams stick obediently to the middle of the street) with > Brisbane or Sydney. > > Brent Efford > Co-ordinator, Transport 2000+ NZ > PO Box 2626, Wellington 6015 > New Zealand > From huright at vsnl.com Sat Mar 2 22:33:35 2002 From: huright at vsnl.com (huright) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 19:03:35 +0530 Subject: [sustran] URGENT GUJARAT Message-ID: <019301c1c1ef$0a833500$3d06c5cb@badadada1> Dear Friends, We have been in touch with friends in Gujarat. The situation against the minorities is completely out of control. The police is actively involved in perpetrating violence against the Muslims. The army has not been allowed to act. Please immediately send faxes to the CM of Gujarat, the President, NHRC, the PM asking them to act. At the moment there is a complete situation of state sponsored genocide. Can you please send this out to as many people as possible. In solidarity, Deepika D'Souza India Centre for Human Rights and Law -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/private/sustran-discuss/attachments/20020302/621b7716/attachment.htm From huright at vsnl.com Sat Mar 2 22:33:35 2002 From: huright at vsnl.com (huright) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 19:03:35 +0530 Subject: [sustran] URGENT GUJARAT Message-ID: <019301c1c1ef$0a833500$3d06c5cb@badadada1> Dear Friends, We have been in touch with friends in Gujarat. The situation against the minorities is completely out of control. The police is actively involved in perpetrating violence against the Muslims. The army has not been allowed to act. Please immediately send faxes to the CM of Gujarat, the President, NHRC, the PM asking them to act. At the moment there is a complete situation of state sponsored genocide. Can you please send this out to as many people as possible. In solidarity, Deepika D'Souza India Centre for Human Rights and Law -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/private/sustran-discuss/attachments/20020302/621b7716/attachment-0001.htm From geobpa at nus.edu.sg Mon Mar 4 08:09:19 2002 From: geobpa at nus.edu.sg (Paul Barter) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 07:09:19 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: URGENT GUJARAT Message-ID: <2C9E855D35B9D01198190020AFFBE8CB0FCB1BB4@exs04.ex.nus.edu.sg> Dear Deepika D'Souza at the India Centre for Human Rights and Law I know the problem in Gujarat right now is a most urgent and important issue and I wish you very well in your great work. Unfortunately, the sustran-discuss list is the wrong forum in which to raise it. I am sorry but I cannot make exceptions to this rule. The email discussion list, sustran-discuss, has a very specific focus on transport issues in the global South. If we allow other issues to be discussed here then the list will become useless and of no interest to its members who came here because of their interest in transport issues. I have sent warnings about this to [huright@vsnl.com] before. I am sorry if this seems harsh but I am removing you now from the sustran-discuss list. To get your message out more effectively I suggest you become a member of email discussion lists that are more relevant to the issues that you are working on. If you ever wish to participate again in the transport-focused discussions on sustran-discuss then please do rejoin the list. But then please stick to transport-related issues. Sincerely Paul sustran-discuss list manager -----Original Message----- From: owner-sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org [mailto:owner-sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org] On Behalf Of huright Sent: Saturday, 2 March 2002 9:34 PM To: Sutapa; sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org; sustran-discuss@jca.apc.org; Sushil Raj; Suresh; Surendra/Sanghamitra Gadekar Subject: [sustran] URGENT GUJARAT Dear Friends, We have been in touch with friends in Gujarat. The situation against the minorities is completely out of control. The police is actively involved in perpetrating violence against the Muslims. The army has not been allowed to act. Please immediately send faxes to the CM of Gujarat, the President, NHRC, the PM asking them to act. At the moment there is a complete situation of state sponsored genocide. Can you please send this out to as many people as possible. In solidarity, Deepika D'Souza India Centre for Human Rights and Law From APHOWES at dm.gov.ae Mon Mar 4 15:22:30 2002 From: APHOWES at dm.gov.ae (Alan Patrick Howes) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:22:30 +0400 Subject: [sustran] Info please - PCU value, Articulated Bus Message-ID: Can anyone give me an accepted pcu-value for a typical articulated bus in urban traffic conditions? (One hinge, 18m. (60ft) long.) For that matter, what about a standard rigid bus? According to a Geography Asociation web document, the pcu value for this is 3.0, which (intuitively) seems to me a tad high. But Peter White's standard work on Public Transport says "... a bus carrying 50 passengers receives little more weight than a private car" - that seems on the low side. Cheers, Alan. -- Alan P Howes, Special Transport Advisor, Dubai Municipality Public Transport Department aphowes@dm.gov.ae Tel: +971 4 286 1616 ext 214 Mobile: +971 50 5989661 From debi at beag.net Mon Mar 4 20:22:19 2002 From: debi at beag.net (Debi Goenka) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:52:19 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: URGENT GUJARAT References: <2C9E855D35B9D01198190020AFFBE8CB0FCB1BB4@exs04.ex.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <000701c1c36e$d90e5aa0$300110ac@powersurfer.net> Dear Paul, Debi is in Singapore. Wiil return to Bombay on the 10th of March. Lily. ------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorised copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden. -------------------------------------------------------- Debi Goenka Bombay Environmental Action Group e-mail: debi@beag.net /&\ debi@powersurfer.net Environmental Education Office Kalbadevi Municipal School # 54, 2nd floor, Mumbai 400002 Tel:91-22-2423126 Tfax:91-22-2426385 Residence B 502 Glengate, Hiran Gardens Powai Mumbai 400076 Tel:91-22-5700638 Tfax:91-22-5701459 ---------------------------------------------- From debi at beag.net Mon Mar 4 20:47:43 2002 From: debi at beag.net (Debi Goenka) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 17:17:43 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: URGENT GUJARAT References: <2C9E855D35B9D01198190020AFFBE8CB0FCB1BB4@exs04.ex.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <000201c1c372$65a22de0$300110ac@powersurfer.net> Dear Paul, Am sending u Debi's contact no in Singapore. It is 96178644.Lilyl ------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorised copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden. -------------------------------------------------------- Debi Goenka Bombay Environmental Action Group e-mail: debi@beag.net /&\ debi@powersurfer.net Environmental Education Office Kalbadevi Municipal School # 54, 2nd floor, Mumbai 400002 Tel:91-22-2423126 Tfax:91-22-2426385 Residence B 502 Glengate, Hiran Gardens Powai Mumbai 400076 Tel:91-22-5700638 Tfax:91-22-5701459 ---------------------------------------------- From debi at beag.net Mon Mar 4 21:29:18 2002 From: debi at beag.net (Debi Goenka) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 17:59:18 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: URGENT GUJARAT References: <2C9E855D35B9D01198190020AFFBE8CB0FCB1BB4@exs04.ex.nus.edu.sg> <000201c1c372$65a22de0$300110ac@powersurfer.net> Message-ID: <001a01c1c378$34c370c0$300110ac@powersurfer.net> ------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorised copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden. -------------------------------------------------------- Debi Goenka Bombay Environmental Action Group e-mail: debi@beag.net /&\ debi@powersurfer.net Environmental Education Office Kalbadevi Municipal School # 54, 2nd floor, Mumbai 400002 Tel:91-22-2423126 Tfax:91-22-2426385 Residence B 502 Glengate, Hiran Gardens Powai Mumbai 400076 Tel:91-22-5700638 Tfax:91-22-5701459 ---------------------------------------------- From mobility at igc.org Tue Mar 5 05:07:57 2002 From: mobility at igc.org (mobility) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 15:07:57 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Bus and rail (fwd) References: Message-ID: <3C83D41D.68867869@igc.org> Two small points on the BRT/MRT debate. i looked at the photos of the Transmilenio system in Bogota regarding the severance impact it might have on pedestrians and cyclists crossing the system. The severance problem was definitiely made worse by the construction of Trans-Milenio. That being said, it also severed motor vehicle trips, which allowed it to function as a form of traffic demand management (ie. by restricting access points into the downtown). One could almost use the BRT to create a ''cordon" within which to impose cordon pricing. anybody explored this? You would have neither of these effects of a burried metro line. Also, for better or worse, if you build the BRT at surface and you are taking road capacity away from motorists, the BRT can function as a TDM measure at the same time. Regarding the costs of operations, it would seem to depend on whether you consider large scale maintenance part of operating costs or not. If you exclude large scale maintenance in New York, the subways have lower operating costs than buses, but if you include large scale maintenance they are higher. We have a habit in the US of calling large scale maintenance ''capital'' investment, but in fact the entire capital budget of the NYCTA is not actually building anything new, it is just keeping the system from further deteriorating, other than some very slow signalling system improvements and perhaps marginally better trains. BruunB@aol.com wrote: > Additional issues to consider off of the top of my head include > 1) the peaking characteristics of travel -- rail is much better at meeting > large surges in demand since high frequency can be maintained all day long at > the same operator cost, only the consist size changes. > 2) I have heard the Sao Paolo busways are atrocious to be located near. The > wall of buses is very noisy and severs the corridor, much like freeways have > done to the US. > 3) The type of alignment used. Once building an elevated section or tunnel > anyway, the case for rail becomes much stronger. > 4) The number of corridors that need improvement. Cities that are more linear > with with fewer corridors can better afford to concentrate investment than > ones that have a sprawling grid to cover. > 5) The higher the income level of passengers you are trying to attract and > the higher the income level of the vehicle operators, the more sense rail > makes. > > Eric Bruun From sagaris at terra.cl Tue Mar 5 05:41:10 2002 From: sagaris at terra.cl (Lake Sagaris) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:41:10 -0300 Subject: [sustran] Re: Bus and rail (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3C83D41D.68867869@igc.org> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020304173536.021b0740@pop3.norton.antivirus> Hi Eric I'm not sure what photos you saw, and we certainly didn't see all of TransMilenio, but we did use the central section intensively during our visit last year, and travelled from the city centre to the northern terminal on the system as well. In general (there may well be some exceptions) the system respected the same stop lights as the regular roads did, so the only real change was that it does make it incredibly silly to jaywalk. We actually attempted this early on, so enthralled by the station we found that we wanted a picture, but were quickly discouraged by the onrush of cars and their disgusted drivers. Perhaps someone directly involved could comment on TransMilenio's overall strategy for dealing with intersections? Best Lake At 03:07 PM 3/4/02 -0500, you wrote: >Two small points on the BRT/MRT debate. > >i looked at the photos of the Transmilenio system in Bogota regarding the >severance impact it might have on pedestrians and cyclists crossing the >system. >The severance problem was definitiely made worse by the construction of >Trans-Milenio. > >That being said, it also severed motor vehicle trips, which allowed it to >function as a form of traffic demand management (ie. by restricting access >points >into the downtown). One could almost use the BRT to create a ''cordon" within >which to impose cordon pricing. anybody explored this? You would have >neither of >these effects of a burried metro line. Also, for better or worse, if you >build >the BRT at surface and you are taking road capacity away from motorists, >the BRT >can function as a TDM measure at the same time. > >Regarding the costs of operations, it would seem to depend on whether you >consider large scale maintenance part of operating costs or not. If you >exclude >large scale maintenance in New York, the subways have lower operating >costs than >buses, but if you include large scale maintenance they are higher. We have a >habit in the US of calling large scale maintenance ''capital'' investment, >but in >fact the entire capital budget of the NYCTA is not actually building anything >new, it is just keeping the system from further deteriorating, other than some >very slow signalling system improvements and perhaps marginally better trains. > > > >BruunB@aol.com wrote: > > > Additional issues to consider off of the top of my head include > > 1) the peaking characteristics of travel -- rail is much better at meeting > > large surges in demand since high frequency can be maintained all day > long at > > the same operator cost, only the consist size changes. > > 2) I have heard the Sao Paolo busways are atrocious to be located near. The > > wall of buses is very noisy and severs the corridor, much like freeways > have > > done to the US. > > 3) The type of alignment used. Once building an elevated section or tunnel > > anyway, the case for rail becomes much stronger. > > 4) The number of corridors that need improvement. Cities that are more > linear > > with with fewer corridors can better afford to concentrate investment than > > ones that have a sprawling grid to cover. > > 5) The higher the income level of passengers you are trying to attract and > > the higher the income level of the vehicle operators, the more sense rail > > makes. > > > > Eric Bruun From kerry.wood at paradise.net.nz Tue Mar 5 06:16:30 2002 From: kerry.wood at paradise.net.nz (Kerry Wood) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 10:16:30 +1300 Subject: [sustran] Re: Info please - PCU value, Articulated Bus References: Message-ID: <3C83E42D.27CC6B6A@paradise.net.nz> I have seen 2.5 used for a standard bus but cannot run down where I saw it. If that figure seems OK, then how about 3.0 for a bendybus? Kerry Wood Alan Patrick Howes wrote: > Can anyone give me an accepted pcu-value for a typical articulated bus in > urban traffic conditions? (One hinge, 18m. (60ft) long.) > > For that matter, what about a standard rigid bus? According to a Geography > Asociation web document, the pcu value for this is 3.0, which (intuitively) > seems to me a tad high. But Peter White's standard work on Public Transport > says "... a bus carrying 50 passengers receives little more weight than a > private car" - that seems on the low side. > > Cheers, Alan. > > -- > Alan P Howes, Special Transport Advisor, > Dubai Municipality Public Transport Department > aphowes@dm.gov.ae > Tel: +971 4 286 1616 ext 214 > Mobile: +971 50 5989661 From BruunB at aol.com Tue Mar 5 08:40:08 2002 From: BruunB at aol.com (BruunB@aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 18:40:08 EST Subject: [sustran] more on Bus and rail (fwd) Message-ID: <63.7851bb4.29b55fd8@aol.com> Is that you, Walter, who raised these good points? Just to complicate things further, NYC's capital costs are higher than average due to the abnormal complexity of the system and the starving of repair budgets for many decades, up to the early 1980s. I think this is why normal maintenance balloons into major capital investments. Eric In a message dated 3/4/02 3:09:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, mobility@igc.org writes: << Two small points on the BRT/MRT debate. i looked at the photos of the Transmilenio system in Bogota regarding the severance impact it might have on pedestrians and cyclists crossing the system. The severance problem was definitiely made worse by the construction of Trans-Milenio. That being said, it also severed motor vehicle trips, which allowed it to function as a form of traffic demand management (ie. by restricting access points into the downtown). One could almost use the BRT to create a ''cordon" within which to impose cordon pricing. anybody explored this? You would have neither of these effects of a burried metro line. Also, for better or worse, if you build the BRT at surface and you are taking road capacity away from motorists, the BRT can function as a TDM measure at the same time. Regarding the costs of operations, it would seem to depend on whether you consider large scale maintenance part of operating costs or not. If you exclude large scale maintenance in New York, the subways have lower operating costs than buses, but if you include large scale maintenance they are higher. We have a habit in the US of calling large scale maintenance ''capital'' investment, but in fact the entire capital budget of the NYCTA is not actually building anything new, it is just keeping the system from further deteriorating, other than some very slow signalling system improvements and perhaps marginally better trains. >> From BruunB at aol.com Tue Mar 5 08:48:05 2002 From: BruunB at aol.com (BruunB@aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 18:48:05 EST Subject: [sustran] Re: Bus and rail (fwd) Message-ID: <43.7867691.29b561b5@aol.com> I was referrring to the Sao Paolo busways. I have not seen photos of the Bogota system. Eric From APHOWES at dm.gov.ae Tue Mar 5 13:01:44 2002 From: APHOWES at dm.gov.ae (Alan Patrick Howes) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 08:01:44 +0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: more on Bus and rail Message-ID: I'm not an expert on US funding arrangements, but if NYCTA can get Maintenance treated as Capital (and thus presumably attract Federal funding), I can see why they do it. But the whole idea of separating Capital and Operating costs in the way they do in the US is grotesque - the problem is that Americans think it is the way God planned, and what America thinks we all have to think too :-) The only thing to be said for it is that it (sort of) puts transit spending on a level playing field with road spending. The big problem is that it skews comparison of different transit solutions depending on how capital-intensive they are (which is one of the reasons why our US consultants are recommending an LRT for Dubai). But the real answer is for proper cost-benefit comparisons of ALL transport schemes, taking into account environmental factors too - as well as costs of capital, and the sort of things Craig was talking about. Seems the reason this is not done in the US is that they can't agree on cost parameters for environmental effects - or even, I suspect, values of personal time. OK, that's a real problem, but it should not stop an attempt being made with quantified assumptions, plus a sensitivity analysis. Of course, if this was done, in urban areas at least, few road-based schemes would be justified. Perhaps, bearing in mind who calls the shots, this is why this approach is not followed in so many countries ... Just my personal opinions. -- Alan P Howes, Special Transport Advisor, Dubai Municipality Public Transport Department aphowes@dm.gov.ae Tel: +971 4 286 1616 ext 214 Mobile: +971 50 5989661 > -----Original Message----- > From: BruunB@aol.com [mailto:BruunB@aol.com] > Sent: Tue, March 05, 2002 3:40 AM > To: sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] more on Bus and rail (fwd) > > > > Is that you, Walter, who raised these good points? > > Just to complicate things further, NYC's capital costs are > higher than average > due to the abnormal complexity of the system and the starving > of repair > budgets for many decades, up to the early 1980s. I think this > is why normal > maintenance balloons into major capital investments. > > Eric > > > > > In a message dated 3/4/02 3:09:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, > mobility@igc.org > writes: > > Regarding the costs of operations, it would seem to depend > on whether you > consider large scale maintenance part of operating costs or > not. If you > exclude > large scale maintenance in New York, the subways have lower > operating costs > than > buses, but if you include large scale maintenance they are > higher. We have a > habit in the US of calling large scale maintenance > ''capital'' investment, > but in > fact the entire capital budget of the NYCTA is not actually > building anything > new, it is just keeping the system from further > deteriorating, other than > some > very slow signalling system improvements and perhaps > marginally better > trains. > > > >> > From PeterBeste at smrtcorp.com.sg Tue Mar 5 13:19:42 2002 From: PeterBeste at smrtcorp.com.sg (Peter Beste) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 12:19:42 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: more on Bus and rail References: Message-ID: <002e01c1c3fc$fc509940$793813ac@smrt.com.sg> Alan have the consultants for Dubai taken life cycle costs of vehicles and infrastructure into account for their evaluation? > I'm not an expert on US funding arrangements, but if NYCTA can get > Maintenance treated as Capital (and thus presumably attract Federal > funding), I can see why they do it. > > But the whole idea of separating Capital and Operating costs in the way they > do in the US is grotesque - the problem is that Americans think it is the > way God planned, and what America thinks we all have to think too :-) > > The only thing to be said for it is that it (sort of) puts transit spending > on a level playing field with road spending. The big problem is that it > skews comparison of different transit solutions depending on how > capital-intensive they are (which is one of the reasons why our US > consultants are recommending an LRT for Dubai). > > But the real answer is for proper cost-benefit comparisons of ALL transport > schemes, taking into account environmental factors too - as well as costs of > capital, and the sort of things Craig was talking about. Seems the reason > this is not done in the US is that they can't agree on cost parameters for > environmental effects - or even, I suspect, values of personal time. OK, > that's a real problem, but it should not stop an attempt being made with > quantified assumptions, plus a sensitivity analysis. > > Of course, if this was done, in urban areas at least, few road-based schemes > would be justified. Perhaps, bearing in mind who calls the shots, this is > why this approach is not followed in so many countries ... > > Just my personal opinions. > -- > Alan P Howes, Special Transport Advisor, > Dubai Municipality Public Transport Department > aphowes@dm.gov.ae > Tel: +971 4 286 1616 ext 214 > Mobile: +971 50 5989661 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: BruunB@aol.com [mailto:BruunB@aol.com] > > Sent: Tue, March 05, 2002 3:40 AM > > To: sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org > > Subject: [sustran] more on Bus and rail (fwd) > > > > > > > > Is that you, Walter, who raised these good points? > > > > Just to complicate things further, NYC's capital costs are > > higher than average > > due to the abnormal complexity of the system and the starving > > of repair > > budgets for many decades, up to the early 1980s. I think this > > is why normal > > maintenance balloons into major capital investments. > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 3/4/02 3:09:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > mobility@igc.org > > writes: > > > > > Regarding the costs of operations, it would seem to depend > > on whether you > > consider large scale maintenance part of operating costs or > > not. If you > > exclude > > large scale maintenance in New York, the subways have lower > > operating costs > > than > > buses, but if you include large scale maintenance they are > > higher. We have a > > habit in the US of calling large scale maintenance > > ''capital'' investment, > > but in > > fact the entire capital budget of the NYCTA is not actually > > building anything > > new, it is just keeping the system from further > > deteriorating, other than > > some > > very slow signalling system improvements and perhaps > > marginally better > > trains. > > > > > > >> > > From APHOWES at dm.gov.ae Tue Mar 5 15:06:22 2002 From: APHOWES at dm.gov.ae (Alan Patrick Howes) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:06:22 +0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: more on Bus and rail Message-ID: Yes. -- Alan P Howes, Special Transport Advisor, Dubai Municipality Public Transport Department aphowes@dm.gov.ae Tel: +971 4 286 1616 ext 214 Mobile: +971 50 5989661 > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Beste [mailto:PeterBeste@smrtcorp.com.sg] > Sent: Tue, March 05, 2002 8:20 AM > To: sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: more on Bus and rail > > > Alan > > have the consultants for Dubai taken life cycle costs of vehicles and > infrastructure into account for their evaluation? > > > > > > I'm not an expert on US funding arrangements, but if NYCTA can get > > Maintenance treated as Capital (and thus presumably attract Federal > > funding), I can see why they do it. > > > > But the whole idea of separating Capital and Operating > costs in the way > they > > do in the US is grotesque - the problem is that Americans > think it is the > > way God planned, and what America thinks we all have to > think too :-) > > > > The only thing to be said for it is that it (sort of) puts transit > spending > > on a level playing field with road spending. The big > problem is that it > > skews comparison of different transit solutions depending on how > > capital-intensive they are (which is one of the reasons why our US > > consultants are recommending an LRT for Dubai). > > > > But the real answer is for proper cost-benefit comparisons of ALL > transport > > schemes, taking into account environmental factors too - as > well as costs > of > > capital, and the sort of things Craig was talking about. > Seems the reason > > this is not done in the US is that they can't agree on cost > parameters for > > environmental effects - or even, I suspect, values of > personal time. OK, > > that's a real problem, but it should not stop an attempt > being made with > > quantified assumptions, plus a sensitivity analysis. > > > > Of course, if this was done, in urban areas at least, few road-based > schemes > > would be justified. Perhaps, bearing in mind who calls the > shots, this is > > why this approach is not followed in so many countries ... > > > > Just my personal opinions. > > -- > > Alan P Howes, Special Transport Advisor, > > Dubai Municipality Public Transport Department > > aphowes@dm.gov.ae > > Tel: +971 4 286 1616 ext 214 > > Mobile: +971 50 5989661 > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: BruunB@aol.com [mailto:BruunB@aol.com] > > > Sent: Tue, March 05, 2002 3:40 AM > > > To: sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org > > > Subject: [sustran] more on Bus and rail (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > > > Is that you, Walter, who raised these good points? > > > > > > Just to complicate things further, NYC's capital costs are > > > higher than average > > > due to the abnormal complexity of the system and the starving > > > of repair > > > budgets for many decades, up to the early 1980s. I think this > > > is why normal > > > maintenance balloons into major capital investments. > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 3/4/02 3:09:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > > mobility@igc.org > > > writes: > > > > > > > > Regarding the costs of operations, it would seem to depend > > > on whether you > > > consider large scale maintenance part of operating costs or > > > not. If you > > > exclude > > > large scale maintenance in New York, the subways have lower > > > operating costs > > > than > > > buses, but if you include large scale maintenance they are > > > higher. We have a > > > habit in the US of calling large scale maintenance > > > ''capital'' investment, > > > but in > > > fact the entire capital budget of the NYCTA is not actually > > > building anything > > > new, it is just keeping the system from further > > > deteriorating, other than > > > some > > > very slow signalling system improvements and perhaps > > > marginally better > > > trains. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > From sagaris at terra.cl Wed Mar 6 21:25:01 2002 From: sagaris at terra.cl (Lake Sagaris) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 09:25:01 -0300 Subject: [sustran] Bus, rail, Transmilenio and pedestrian crossings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020306092110.029bb380@pop3.norton.antivirus> Hi Folks I realize that Eric has clarified that he was actually talking about the bus system in Sao Paolo, but in the meantime I requested and received some interesting responses on our Spanish-language, Latin American list, innovacion urbana. They do provide some insight into how Transmilenio (Bogot?) has affected pedestrian crossings and other transport modes. Hope this is useful. All best Lake From: "German C. Lleras" Mailing-List: list Innovacionurbana@yahoogroups.com; contact Innovacionurbana-owner@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 20:45:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [Innovacionurbana] Fwd: Re: [sustran] Re: Bus and rail (fwd) Regarding the situation for pedestrians and bikers I would say that Transmilenio has improved it in several ways rather than the contrary. First, I think that the comparisons should be made considering the previous situation and should be done under the appropriate context. This is not to say that we did not consider the feasible optimum as a desired condition or that further improvements should be made. I don't know exactly what pictures were shown; however, the situation changes if you are looking at Calle 80, Autopista Norte or Av. Caracas. In Autopista Norte the situation improved substantially, this road was first designed (early 60's) as a limited access highway (10 lanes, 5 in each direction) and therefore only a few pedestrian or bike crossing were included in its original design, always attached to grade intersections designed for vehicles. Not a single at grade-signalized intersection exists in about ten kilometers making almost impossible to cross it. Over the years, some grade intersections were built connecting the eastern and western part of the city, some of them were pedestrian bridges used also by bikes, even though they did not have ramps and therefore were not easily accessible for bicycles, let alone wheelchairs. The BRT system enabled the construction of pedestrian bridges with ramps (Colombian equivalent to ADA compliance), some of them integrated to what is called "linear parks" and the citywide bikeway network. These overpasses serve as well as the main access to the stations in the median, encouraging the use of these facilities and reducing the number of fatalities and injuries involving pedestrian and bikers. An additional effect is that these new crossings are now attached to a bigger infrastructure that plays a more relevant role than an individual pedestrian overpass; thus its maintenance is, in a way, more secure. It is important to stress that some of the existent overpasses were poorly built and maintained even to the point of collapse (one or two actually collapsed over the last five years) and the personal safety (many crimes took place in those bridges) was endanger because of the lack of lighting and poorly designed and maintained neighboring areas. It can be argued that the pedestrian use of the area has been extended for an additional few hours. Now, in relation to Calle 80, I think that the whole area has improved in terms of mode segregation in an integrated way, I don't know if that is that the right expression, but the point is that previously, there were not conditions for pedestrians or bikers at all. They had to coexist in the same road space with literally hundreds of buses fighting a battle for passengers and therefore the number of injuries and fatalities was very high and the idea of riding a bike was discouraging. It is important to say that many of the pedestrian and bikers were, and still are, captive users of these modes rather than choice users as may be thought in the US, making this a more relevant case in terms of accessibility and equity. Although built as a highway connecting the city to the western part of the country, it had several at grade-signalized intersections used as the main points of crossing, most of these intersections remained part of the BRT design, however, some adjustments to the phases were made. In addition new overpasses were constructed where the access to the stations were being built increasing the number of opportunities to cross the buslane safely. The crossing distance has been maintained and the urban design and traffic signal phasing have been also improved. Not to say that parallel to the bus lane there has been an extensive program to build sidewalks where none exist before, creating an environment where people can actually walk. Finally, in Av. Caracas, perhaps the most critical road in terms of pedestrians and bikers, the improvement has also been relevant. I'm not sure if the people in this forum are aware of the conditions previously existing in this area; it was the most hated venue in the whole city, people walking there, did it because that was the only alternative. It was the most dangerous place for pedestrians and bikers in terms of accidents and fatalities, let alone the pollution caused by the number of ill-maintained and noisy buses circulating (approx.1000 per hour). Those are the conditions in many other main arteries in the developing world. As Lake pointed out, the bus lane infrastructure in this area has discouraged jaywalking and enabled crossing at places where it is safer to walk (that was the main problem for pedestrian use of the road). The crossing distance has remained the same and now the extended and improved median serves as a shelter between green phases for the buses. The presence of police and Transmilenio staff in this area also helps to encourage more activities in this area and pedestrian use of the sidewalks that, as in Calle 80 underwent a major restoration. This is a more central road going through the CBD and the old part of town, therefore it is more densely populated and the number of at-grade intersection is very high becoming, in some areas, an obstacle to the desired speed for the buses. That is certainly an issue when making a trade off between bus speed and pedestrian facilities. However, the constraints are usually associated with phases to allow other cars to cross rather than with the pedestrians. In fact several signals were implemented along the corridor to allow pedestrians to cross the road, and gain access to the BRT, where no cars are allowed to do so. It is important to stress that the fact that the stations are located in the median and the system operating without subsidies requires all the possible demand makes imperative the pedestrian friendliness of the areas around stations. Something that is still and issue and need to be improved. I would like to hear more about the debate pertaining the operational costs, I don't think that the BRT costs under the operational scheme established for Transmilenio will result in higher costs even including maintenance of the infrastructure and vehicles when comapred to agencies like the MBTA, the CTA or the MTA. German Lleras Candidate MST/MCP Massachusetts Institute of Technology Para participar en este grupo, por favor enviar un correo-e a Innovacionurbana-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/private/sustran-discuss/attachments/20020306/533fc306/attachment.htm From sagaris at terra.cl Wed Mar 6 21:33:23 2002 From: sagaris at terra.cl (Lake Sagaris) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 09:33:23 -0300 Subject: [sustran] Fwd: Re: [[Innovacionurbana] Fwd: Re: Bus and rail (fwd)] Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020306092606.00ab0ba0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Also from Innovacion Urbana (Spanish-language list, see previous message), these observations from Lloyd Wright. Subscribe: Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 16:47:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [[Innovacionurbana] Fwd: Re: [sustran] Re: Bus and rail (fwd)] Reply-To: Innovacionurbana@yahoogroups.com For me, the situation for pedestrians and cyclists was worse before Transmilenio (bus system in Bogot?). Caracas Avenue was almost impossible to cross. Now, with exclusive bus lanes and better signalling the traffic has calmed. Other measures, such as "pico y placa" and more cycle routes have also reduced traffic. Also, in some places on Caracas Avenue and most of Ochenta Avenue, TransMilenio built excellent bridges for cyclists and pedestrians. It's a shame that we can't include photos with messages to Innovaci?n Urbana because the infrastructure photos are impressive (Note: we will be improving the Innovacion Urbana section of Ciudad Viva's web page this year, in order to include photos so that list members and others interested can visit and enjoy these images -- contributions are welcome -- please contact Lake, sagaris@terra.cl if you would like to send something in). Of course, crossing Caracas Avenue remains somewhat difficult, but Bogota with TransMilenio is a pleasure compared to the previous situation. Saludos, Lloyd Lloyd Wright Director, Am?rica Latina Institue for Transportation & Development Policy Para mi, la situaci?n para peatones y ciclistas era peor antes de TransMilenio. Avenida Caracas fue casi imposible cruzar. Ahora, los carriles exclusivos para los buses y la mejor se?alizaci?n ha calmado el tr?fico. Y hay menos tr?fico por causa de las otras medidas como pico y placa y m?s ciclo-rutas. Tambi?n, en algunos lugares de Avenida Caracas y la mayoria de Avenida Ochenta, TransMilenio ha constru?do puentes excelentes para ciclistas y peatones. Es una l?stima que no sea posible incluir fotos con mensajes en Innovaci?n Urbana porque las fotos de la infraestructura son impresionantes. Claro, cruzar Avenida Caracas todov?a es un poco d?ficl, pero Bogot? con TransMilenio es un placer en comparisi?n con la situaci?n antes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/private/sustran-discuss/attachments/20020306/1b84ba7f/attachment.htm From kisansbc at vsnl.com Fri Mar 8 02:30:16 2002 From: kisansbc at vsnl.com (kisan mehta) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 23:00:16 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: wb loan References: <3C8794EE.F5ACE552@igc.org> Message-ID: <000901c1c5fd$bf17f2a0$3226020a@im.eth.net> Dear Walter and Sustran Friends, The Times of India carries this morning a news report saying that the World Bank money would start flowing from June 2002 for the MUTP. Mr Ed Dotson's name is mentioned in the news item. We are not sure whether our morning message reached Walter on what we should achieve for sustainable transport. Hence we repeat hereunder: !. Two road subprojects should comprise of 4 carriageway lanes and pavementof 4 m on both sides. The MSRDC and MMRDA has not carried out any study to establish need for constructing six lanes and no pavements. Six lane plus pavements would necessitate considerable reclamation and should be avoided. 2. Many Mumbai roads do not have pavements, The MMRDA should carry out survey with the help of citrizens and make a comprehensive programme for providing pavements where they do not exist and restore where in bad shape. This may require Rs 10 to 15 billion. The present MUTP should have a component for constructing pavements with allocation of Rs 2 billion. Mun should be asked to prepare priority schedule for utilising Rs 2 billion in consultation with citizens. There is no need to engage consultancy firm for the preparation of programme. 2. Road overbridges over railway tracks not having pavements should not be included in the MUTP. With level crossing officially closed and pavements not provided on road overbridges, fatalities on tracks are bound to increase as pedestrianswould jump over the tracks. For ensuring faster speed to trains, all level crossings without exception should be replaced by grade separated road overbridges having pavements. 3. Parking of 2, 3 and 4 wheelers on pavements should be banned. 4. Citizens should be involved in the monitoring of the MUTP during and after implementation. Programmes coming under railway subprojects should be reviewed involving citizens and rationalised with their active support. Best wishes. Kisan Mehta and Priya Salvi ----- Original Message ----- From: Walter Hook To: Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 9:57 PM Subject: wb loan > Dear Kisan and Priya, > > Thanks. This is very clear. I forwarded it to Ed to see what he says. > I should see him or talk to him at the end of the month and will let you > know if i learn anything about what happened in the negotations. > > best > walter > > Access ITDP's New Website: www.ITDP.org > The Institute for Transportation and Development Policy > 115 W. 30th Street - Suite 1205 - New York, NY 10001 - USA > tel: (212) 629-8001 fax: (212) 629-8033 From sagaris at terra.cl Fri Mar 8 22:36:00 2002 From: sagaris at terra.cl (Lake Sagaris) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 10:36:00 -0300 Subject: [sustran] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fwd:_Sitio_web_Transmilenio_en_Bogot=E1?= Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020308103330.029f71e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Hi Everyone >Just received this reminder that Transmilenio, the express bus system in >Bogot? has its own web site. It is primarily in Spanish, but there is a >brief explanation of the system available in English and a very >interesting photo gallery, which of course tends to speak for itself. >There are also texts from an international seminar on transportation held >in Bogot? in November 2001 which look extremely interesting. Some of them >may be in English (I haven't had time to download them all and take a >look). Anyway, this is well worth a visit for anyone interested in the >train versus bus options, particularly in Latin American cities. Bogot? >opted for TransMilenio when it became clear that the long hoped for subway >was too expensive for the government purse. Best Lake >>>http://www.transmilenio.gov.co:8080/transmilenio/Transmilenio.htm From binac at rediffmail.com Sat Mar 9 02:50:57 2002 From: binac at rediffmail.com (Bina CBalakrishnan) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:50:57 -0000 Subject: [sustran] Re: wb loan Message-ID: <20020308175057.5813.qmail@mailweb21.rediffmail.com> Correction: In my earlier letter, I had mentioned the MMRDA web-site as www.mmrda.org. Please read it as www.mmrdamumbai.org. The error is regretted. Bina C. Balakrishnan On Thu, 07 Mar 2002 kisan mehta wrote : >Dear Walter and Sustran Friends, > >The Times of India carries this morning a news report saying >that >the World Bank money would start flowing from June 2002 for the >MUTP. Mr Ed Dotson's name is mentioned in the news item. > >We are not sure whether our morning message reached Walter on >what we should achieve for sustainable transport. Hence we >repeat >hereunder: > >!. Two road subprojects should comprise of 4 carriageway lanes >and pavementof 4 m on both sides. The MSRDC and MMRDA has >not carried out any study to establish need for constructing >six >lanes and no pavements. Six lane plus pavements would >necessitate >considerable reclamation and should be avoided. > >2. Many Mumbai roads do not have pavements, The MMRDA >should carry out survey with the help of citrizens and make a >comprehensive programme for providing pavements where they do >not exist and restore where in bad shape. This may require Rs >10 >to 15 billion. The present MUTP should have a component for >constructing pavements with allocation of Rs 2 billion. Mun >should >be asked to prepare priority schedule for utilising Rs 2 billion >in >consultation with citizens. There is no need to engage >consultancy firm for the preparation of programme. > >2. Road overbridges over railway tracks not having pavements >should not be included in the MUTP. With level crossing >officially >closed and pavements not provided on road overbridges, >fatalities >on tracks are bound to increase as pedestrianswould jump over >the >tracks. For ensuring faster speed to trains, all level >crossings >without exception should be replaced by grade separated road >overbridges having pavements. > >3. Parking of 2, 3 and 4 wheelers on pavements should be >banned. > >4. Citizens should be involved in the monitoring of the MUTP >during >and after implementation. > >Programmes coming under railway subprojects should be reviewed >involving citizens and rationalised with their active support. >Best wishes. > >Kisan Mehta and Priya Salvi > >----- Original Message ----- > From: Walter Hook >To: >Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 9:57 PM >Subject: wb loan > > > > Dear Kisan and Priya, > > > > Thanks. This is very clear. I forwarded it to Ed to see what >he says. > > I should see him or talk to him at the end of the month and >will let you > > know if i learn anything about what happened in the >negotations. > > > > best > > walter > > > > Access ITDP's New Website: www.ITDP.org > > The Institute for Transportation and Development Policy > > 115 W. 30th Street - Suite 1205 - New York, NY 10001 - USA > > tel: (212) 629-8001 fax: (212) 629-8033 > > > From binac at rediffmail.com Sun Mar 10 00:31:40 2002 From: binac at rediffmail.com (Bina CBalakrishnan) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 15:31:40 -0000 Subject: [sustran] Re: wb loan Message-ID: <20020309153140.5941.qmail@mailweb18.rediffmail.com> Dear Walter, Mr.Kisan Mehta: I had read Mr Mehta's answers to Walter's queries dated 2nd March on the World Bank aided MUTP for Mumbai and had not intended commenting on them. However, in view of this latest note, and esp. Walter's comments, I think it's time for some clarifications. I am a Transportation Planner, and have done some work in this field in Mumbai. I had earlier sent my comments as a file attachment, but Paul responded saying that the sustran-discuss list could not handle file attachments. So I have redone the entire discussion in two separate letters, which follow this one. I have had to retain all of Mr. Mehta's comments, as only then does mine make any sense. However, I have not responded to all of them, as that would REALLY take up your time! I have condensed Walter's questions to some extent, for the sake of brevity. This makes for rather cumbersome reading- but please bear with us! Thank you. Regards, Bina C. Balakrishnan Consultant, Transportation Planning and Engineering Mumbai e-mail: binac@rediffmail.com On Thu, 07 Mar 2002 kisan mehta wrote : >Dear Walter and Sustran Friends, > >The Times of India carries this morning a news report saying that >the World Bank money would start flowing from June 2002 for the >MUTP. Mr Ed Dotson's name is mentioned in the news item. We are >not sure whether our morning message reached Walter on what we >should achieve for sustainable transport. Hence we repeat >hereunder: > >!. Two road subprojects should comprise of 4 carriageway lanes >and pavementof 4 m on both sides. The MSRDC and MMRDA has not >carried out any study to establish need for constructing six >lanes and no pavements. Six lane plus pavements would >necessitate >considerable reclamation and should be avoided. > >2. Many Mumbai roads do not have pavements, The MMRDA >should carry out survey with the help of citrizens and make a >comprehensive programme for providing pavements where they do not >exist and restore where in bad shape. This may require Rs 10 to >15 billion. The present MUTP should have a component for >constructing pavements with allocation of Rs 2 billion. Mun >should be asked to prepare priority schedule for utilising Rs 2 >billion in >consultation with citizens. There is no need to engage >consultancy firm for the preparation of programme. > >2. Road overbridges over railway tracks not having pavements >should not be included in the MUTP. With level crossing >officially closed and pavements not provided on road overbridges, >fatalities on tracks are bound to increase as pedestrianswould >jump over the >tracks. For ensuring faster speed to trains, all level >crossings without exception should be replaced by grade separated >road overbridges having pavements. > >3. Parking of 2, 3 and 4 wheelers on pavements should be >banned. > >4. Citizens should be involved in the monitoring of the MUTP >during and after implementation. Programmes coming under railway >subprojects should be reviewed >involving citizens and rationalised with their active support. >Best wishes. > >Kisan Mehta and Priya Salvi > >----- Original Message ----- > From: Walter Hook >To: >Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 9:57 PM >Subject: wb loan > > > > Dear Kisan and Priya, > > > > Thanks. This is very clear. I forwarded it to Ed to see what >he says. > > I should see him or talk to him at the end of the month and >will let you know if i learn anything about what happened in the >negotations. > > > > best > > walter > > > > Access ITDP's New Website: www.ITDP.org > > The Institute for Transportation and Development Policy > > 115 W. 30th Street - Suite 1205 - New York, NY 10001 - USA > > tel: (212) 629-8001 fax: (212) 629-8033 > > > From binac at rediffmail.com Sun Mar 10 00:50:47 2002 From: binac at rediffmail.com (Bina CBalakrishnan) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 15:50:47 -0000 Subject: [sustran] Re: World Bank loan for MUTP Message-ID: <20020309155047.21417.qmail@mailweb18.rediffmail.com> Hi everyone, The following is the first part of Mr Kisan Mehta's letter, in response to Walter's queries, and to which I have added my comments, at specific areas. The second part follows immediately. Bina C. Balakrishnan Consultant Transportation Planning and Engineering Mumbai e-mail: binac@rediffmail.com Dear Walter, Paul and Sustran Friends, We must record our appreciation of Walter's approach and strategy that helps to get the World Bank support. We now take up issues raised by Walter. Walter:. are you against any World Bank loan for mumbai? My impression is that the vast majority of funds ($600 million!) is directed at improving rail services, which given Bombay's structure would seem to be desperately needed. If you are against the whole thing, can you explain to me why? K.M:-We are not opposed to the Bank loan per se. We are opposed to the way subprojects are included and implemented or under implementation. Road subprojects cannot be justified at all as 50 and odd flyovers and elevated roads implemented without simultanously implementing programmes for mitigating damage to environment and hardship to citizens. Two road subprojects proposed for inclusion are already under construction by MSRDC, govt agency building flyovers, and by the MMRDA. Bina:-The flyovers you mention are in no way connected to the World Bank loan, and have been designed and implemented independently by the MSRDC. As for the road sub-projects that you mention, may I know which ones you are referring to? If they are the SCLR- i.e. the Santa Cruz-Chembur Link Road, and the JVLR- i.e. the Jogeshwari -Vikhroli Link Road, then you as an old resident of Mumbai should know how very badly the city needs these East West Connectors. The absence of any arterial road in the East-West direction in the suburbs- or for that matter, even in the Island City, puts tremendous strain on the road network, as everyone is aware. In fact, these roads were recommended for Mumbai (then Bombay), as far back as 1962, by the then transportation consultants, Wilbur Smith and Associates. K.M.:- The MSRDC project for six lane road without pavements going on for ten years is made to pass through some of the green areas abutting two lakes. The natural and more used route is shorter and more convenient yet the MSRDC alignment is through green areas. The MMRDA is a special planning authority appointed to develop Bandra-Kurla Complex where it has earned over Rs 20 billion by selling land with double the normal FSI (increasing crowding and citizen hardship). Bina:- The entire EIA of all the projects and subprojects of the MUTP is available on the Net. K.M.:-This road built within the Complex too is sans pavement. The MMRDA has the primary obligation to provide link roads. In the citizen consultation, we raised these issues yet not a single Bank official uttered a word to show the Bank concern on these two dangerous subprojects. Bank officials are a party in finalising the present MUTP. How can the Bank justify extending of loan to road subprojects where monitoring is not possible and which will result in more hardship? Bina:-Why do you say that Monitoring is not possible, and what are the hardships that will result from the construction of these roads? Can you give me the names of these roads? And can you also mention the hardships that would result? K.M:- Should public authorities abdicate the duty to provide roads from their funds? Road overbridges over railway tracks are not provided with pavements the yet allow ingress of more personal cars in the crowded areas. Level crossings were picked up selectively for grade separated road overbridges to facilitate car accessibility. Unless all level crossings are replaced by overbridges, rly service cannot improve. Bina:- The Road over- bridges, where they have been provided in a location slightly away from the existing level crossing, have been provided with minimum footpaths, as per standards. And at the original location of the level crossings, the pedestrians have been provided with foot-over bridges, so that they do not have to deviate from their regular route. You also do not seem to be aware that all but three of the level crossings have already been/ are being replaced by ROBs by the BMC at their own cost, and these remaining three are those that have been included in the World Bank aided Mumbai Urban Transport Project (MUTP). K.M:- The railway subprojects have to be evaluated from the point of their capability to reduce crash overcrowding of average 3000 persons. Bina:- This is exactly what the MUTP is attempting to do, with the assistance of the World Bank, if you will permit them, Mr. Mehta. And incidentally, that figure is 4500 persons per 9-car train, not 3000. These projects were selected based on the study made by W.S. Atkins International et al - the Comprehensive Transport Plan for Bombay Metropolitan Region. If you have taken the trouble of going through the report, you will find that its recommendations contain a phased program of implementation, separately for Railway System Development, Bus and Ferry System Development, and Highway Schemes, which include the ROBs that you are speaking against. Please refer to chapter 7, Transport Investment Programme, of the Final Report. This is available at the library of the MMRDA, on the 6th floor. The library is open to all members of the public, and there is no membership fee. Para 7.3 starts: " The strategy is aimed at strengthening public transport services in the region so as to maintain their role in the face of ever increasing availability of private vehicle modes .." K.M.:- One has to visualise quantum change and not talk of normal extension. What is the use of developing a single track instead of a pair when the object is of increasing the frequency by cutting down headway from 4 to 3 minutes? Our suggestions with complete drawings are summarily rejected. Road overbridges have not improved train frequency. Bina:- The frequency of trains has already been increased from 5 minutes to 4 minutes, if you check with the railways. K.M:- Public buses are subjected to severe restrictions. They are not allowed to use flyovers. Bina:- They are at full liberty to use the flyovers, if they so decide to route the buses. However, they choose not to use the flyovers, because the bus- stops are located at -grade, since the movement of pedestrians - and the origins and destinations of pedestrians - is at -grade. The speeds of buses on roads that have had flyovers constructed have improved because the rest of the traffic uses the flyovers, and therefore there is substantial reduction of vehicular traffic on the bus routes. K.M:- Many roads closed to buses are open to private cars even for parking. Bus fares include 15-17% of passenger tax not charged to car owners. Money spent on flyovers is not being recovered from cars. We do not wish to be hostile but there is no go. We try to talk to the MMRDA but no success. We have met Bank teams one after another for over 8 years now but no result. We value your suggestion to not to be hostile. Walter:- you are against the inclusion of some road elements. My understanding has been that the road elements are intended to separate surface-level road and rail traffic. This seems quite reasonable. Am I missing something here? I mean, the World Bank isnt proposing to fund these 50 flyovers that Mumbai and many other Indian cities are building, quite disasterously Bina:- I have already answered these statements earlier. K.M:- Road subprojects comprise of road overbridges for grade separation (but included in railway subprojects). Some (not all) level crossings are changed to road overbridges without pavements. With old level crossings closed, pedestrians trespass on railway tracks instead of using far away stepped foot overbridges. Average five persons die daily due to track crossing and fall from overcrowded trains. Two road subprojects that we oppose are 6 lane 8-10 km long carriageways without pavements passing through crowded residential areas, under implementation by MSRDC and MMRDA. The Bank has not insisted on pavements or natural alignment. Flyovers built earlier are paid for from public funds. Authorities should find money (if it all they prove that such roads are unavoidable) from elsewhere. The Bank cannot extend loan for pavementless roads yet the Bank officials are actively supporting such projects. Bina:- I myself was in a meeting with the visiting World Bank team, where they clearly told us that they were allocating funds separately for grade separated pedestrian crossings as well as for footpaths at grade. (Message continues in second part) Bina C. Balakrishnan From binac at rediffmail.com Sun Mar 10 01:00:42 2002 From: binac at rediffmail.com (Bina CBalakrishnan) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:00:42 -0000 Subject: [sustran] Re: World Bank loan for MUTP(2) Message-ID: <20020309160042.32042.qmail@mailweb18.rediffmail.com> Hi again, The following is part 2- and the last, on the subject. Regards, Bina K.M:- Mumbai has the world's highest road fatality rate, pedestrians forming 81% of victims. Incidence of cardio-vascular diseases is 30% higher than the national average, thanks to poor air quality and auto exhaust. About 7 years ago the Bank team had visited Mumbai for MUTP. We took the traffic expert from a Bank Consulting Agency to a flyover site. She opined against flyover. Concerned Bank officials forced the consulting agency to remove the expert from service. The Bank officially withdrew from the project in 1997 when we showed the Team as to how flyovers under construction would foul the MUTP II. We had expected that the Bank would not revive it until the government took measures to correct the damage caused by 50 and odd flyovers/elevated roads built in Mumbai, (The MSRDC is foisting many more flyovers in other cities). Now if the Bank supports road subprojects, it would be construed to have blessed flyovers. Walter:- You feel that the road elements included should have sidewalks, as should many other streets in the project area, and that they are required in national policy and not being implemented. This is a valid concern and the World Bank SHOULD be an ally on this issue, given the statements in their new Urban Transport Strategy. These comments on the actual proposed designs being hostile to pedestrians the project managers at the World Bank should be able to address. I have forwarded your concerns to a few people inside the Bank. K.M:- Majority of Mumbai's roads do not have pavements. Bina;- Correction, Mr. Mehta. Majority of Mumbai's roads have pavements that are encroached upon. And as I have mentioned earlier, the World Bank HAS agreed to allocate funds for pavements and foot over bridges. K.M:_ There are unpaved sidewalks which car drivers use for parking or overtaking from wrong side. This results in pedestrians being hit and higher SPM and other pollution levels. The MMRDA has not carried out studies of existing air quality levels as well as not estimated likely increase in these levels due to implementation of the MUTP. In fact even no count of vehicles plying in as well as visiting Mumbai has been taken. Space below flyovers already constructed is given over for car parking in crowded areas where parking was not allowed earlier. Glaring case is the JJ Hospital to Crawford Market where the longest 3 km elevated road is under construction. This is one of the mosted crowded area having over 100,000 resident density per sq km and visitor density of addtional 300,000 during working hours. Pavements are cut down for carriageway. Space below the elevated road is used for parking estimated 500 vehicles. 25 bus routes having over 50 buses in one km length during peak hours suffer. Both side parking is allowed on single entry roads (a few such roads closed to BEST buses). A NGO moved the Bombay High Court on pavements and got the Court directive on the Municipal Corporation, a partner of the MUTP, to build pavements where not existing and restore where in bad state. Yet not a single pavement is built or restored. Walter:- Have the railway improvements in the loan been completely worked out or are they still under negotiation? If still under negotiation, do we NGOs have any credible rail experts who could voice a professional opinion on some of these issues that would be seen as credible by the World Bank and the MMRDA? Agreed' Bina :-To answer Walter's question, yes the rail improvements have been completely worked out between the railways and the World Bank. K.M:- During the consultation, the MMRDA took a stand that the MUTP as presented was frozen and citizens cannot propose any amendment. Railway component was never presented to citizens before. Bina:- There have been several public presentations and workshops on this project, where you yourself have been very visibly present. Also, if you will please check their web site www.mmrdamumbai.org , you will get any further information that you need. K.M:- Our detailed suggestions including to the Railway Minister from time to time were never acknowledged, what to talk of considered. In the consultation, we drew attention to some anomalies. Bank officials remained silent. The MMRDA has sent reply to some by saying `the Railways may consider them in future' or `it is upto the Railways to consider'. Signals are that though the debt is being created on citizens, they have no right to suggest. We have amongst us colleagues who have worked consistently and acquired credibility however the MMRDA and authorities set them aside. The Save Bombay Committee has invariably got issues studied and provided workable alternatives also in the railway sector but of no avail. Even one Minister knowing me very well could not get the railway officers to discuss the proposals in the larger interests. Proposals made by us even at present deserve in depth consideration for improving commutation conditions. We are ready to discuss the proposals in depth with the Bank. Walter:- A big focus of the World Bank has been to get this new institutional structure where the municipality has more control over commuter rail and the national railway has less. I don't know the status of this institutional change. Do you know -if this new institution has been created, and - is it in the long run going to help improve commuter rail services? K.M:- Probably you have in mind the new joint venture regional railway company in 50:50 partnership of the national Rly Dept and the Maharashtra Govt set up last year. The officers are all active or retired railway officers. Bina:- You are probably referring to the very active Mumbai Rail Vikas Corporation (MRVC). This is certainly not composed of retired officers. The MRVC is manned by officers from the Indian Railway Service, all of them very senior, and some of them have put in over 30 years of service with the Railways in various capacities. I think the MRVC is therefore in very safe, very experienced hands. As for functioning only for the levying of taxes, the MRVC has been able to increase the central funding from Rs.40 Crores to Rs. 180 Crores just for the new Borivli- Virar line. MUTP-Phase I has already been submitted to the Railway Board, and they are confident of obtaining the sanction for the projects in the first phase in the current year itself. In addition, several new items have also been sent to the Planning Commission for approval. The MRVC have also made certain commitments to the World Bank regarding improvements in the quality of the service provided, and the passenger carrying capacity, by increasing the length of the trains to 12 cars from 9 cars. Several of the trains are already 12 cars, if you have cared to notice. Increasing to 12 cars obviously entails increasing the length of the platforms, and this is also in progress. Also, it follows that there will have to be improvements in the signalling system- which is also in progress. The other rail components of the MUTP can be viewed from the web site. K.M:- A retired not so senior rly officer acts as advisor to the MMRDA. The new company pushes proposals formulated by Rly Dept. A few MUTP proposals are implemented and others under implementation. The national Rly Board pursues them so much so that some of the MUTP proposals are included in the annual national Rly budget that the Rly Minister presented in the national Parliament last Monday. The activities of the new company are restricted to levying of taxes on Mumbai commuters that was not legally possible under the old set up. Municipality has no role in the set up. No window for citizens to present viable alternatives. We would be willing to explain citizen proposals without any bias again if the Bank can organise. This is essential. We would appreciate if you can get the Bank to discuss the proposals for public rail and road transport. We look forward to the Sustran Steering Committee and Sustran Members support. Mumbai suburban railways carry 40% of total journeys provided by the Indian Railways throughout India. Quantum improvement in the suburban commutation in Mumbai region can bring all round relief. Best wishes and good luck in your efforts. A new Bank team is in Mumbai and we are meeting it on 4 March. We shall try to remain sober. Kisan Mehta and Priya Salvi From kisansbc at vsnl.com Sun Mar 10 14:21:36 2002 From: kisansbc at vsnl.com (kisan mehta) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 10:51:36 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: World Bank loan for MUTP References: <20020309155047.21417.qmail@mailweb18.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <001001c1c7f3$734274c0$3226020a@im.eth.net> Dear Bina, We were happy to read your elaborate response to our emails to the Sustran Colleagues and Walter Hook.on the World Bank Loan for the MUTP We initially thought of replying on points picked up from our reply for giving you response. Then we observed that you are a Mumbai resident. We thought it may be more appropriate in the ultimate benefit of Mumbai residents (and visitors too) that we discuss issues amongst ourselves and draw up a joint working plan, if necessitated, for obtaining all good and enticing the MUTP promises with the Bank help. May we invite you to our office for a meeting at a mutually convenient time? A Sustranmember, Mr William Ross is visiting Mumbai from 16 till (I believe) 23 March. We could request him as well to join after our preliminary meeting before the 16th. Best wishes. Kisan Mehta kisansbc@vsnl.com Priya Salvi priya_salvi@yahoo.com Save Bombay Committee 620, Jame Jamshed Road, Dadar East, Mumbai 400 014 Tel: 00 91 22 414 9688 Fax: 00 91 22 415 5536 ----- Original Message ----- From: Bina CBalakrishnan To: sustran-discuss Cc: kisan mehta ; Walter Hook Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 9:20 PM Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: World Bank loan for MUTP From binac at rediffmail.com Sun Mar 10 21:57:55 2002 From: binac at rediffmail.com (Bina CBalakrishnan) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 12:57:55 -0000 Subject: [sustran] Re: World Bank loan for MUTP Message-ID: <20020310125755.465.qmail@mailweb25.rediffmail.com> Dear Mr. Mehta, Ms. Salvi, Thank you for the gracious invitation to meet with you at your offices in Mumbai. Maybe I should tell you where I'm coming from, and where I stand, first. As I said earlier, I am an independent consultant in Transportation Planning and Engineering, based in Mumbai. I was fortunate to do a study for Mumbai in 1999-2000, where I interacted very closely with the senior officers of the MMRDA, the BMC, the Maharashtra Maritime Board, the Western and Central Railways, and the then newly formed MRVC. I was impressed with the commitment I saw there. As we will all readily admit, Mumbai as a city is barely functional. These people try to do their best, despite tremendous odds, funds crunch, and the sheer weight of numbers. But as an independent consultant, once I finished my job, I moved on. Last year, I was drawn into a very novel movement here in Mumbai. Aware of the problems facing the city, and also aware of the Government's limitations in resolving them, a group of NGOs had come together to stem the city's rapid downslide. The most obvious problem was transportation, and the immediate fallout - apart from other issues- was the increased levels of pollution in the city. The group targeted this, therefore. They called themselves NeTrA - an acronym for Networking for Transportation Alternatives. I am now very actively involved with NeTrA, and guide them on transportation related issues. NeTrA is committed to improving the transportation system of Mumbai, and believes in working very closely with the concerned authorities in order to achieve this objective. Confrontations solve very few problems, and generally results in the waste of a lot of time. NeTrA therefore focuses on issues, and forces a meaningful dialogue with the Government, getting it to make commitments, and setting target dates for achieving these commitments. Coming now to the much-discussed MUTP, we at NeTrA believe in trying the application of management solutions to solve a transportation problem, before resorting to an engineering, or supply side, solution. However, having done the earlier job in Mumbai, I am aware of the limitations of the road network of the city, and also of the transportation system as a whole. Therefore, I feel that those projects that have been identified within the scope of the MUTP are sorely needed, and the sooner they are implemented, the better off the city and its residents will be. Be very assured, however, that we are not any part of the "Car lobby", but are actively trying to promote mass transportation- both road based and rail based, and if possible, water based too! This does not imply that we have blindly agreed to whatever the plans involve. We have been attending the public presentations, and making suggestions, some of which have been included in the scope of the MUTP. Where we do not agree, we raise an objection, and it has been looked into. As I said earlier, the entire EIA is on the net, and available to anyone who may be interested. Having said this much, I would be happy to meet with you, either as an independent planner or as a member of NeTrA. My very best regards to you and Ms. Salvi. Bina C. Balakrishnan Consultant Transportation Planning and Engineering e-mail: binac@rediffmail.com On Sun, 10 Mar 2002 kisan mehta wrote : >Dear Bina, > >We were happy to read your elaborate response to our emails to >the >Sustran Colleagues and Walter Hook.on the World Bank Loan for >the MUTP We initially thought of replying on points picked >up > from our reply for giving you response. Then we observed >that >you are a Mumbai resident. We thought it may be more >appropriate >in the ultimate benefit of Mumbai residents (and visitors too) >that >we discuss issues amongst ourselves and draw up a joint working >plan, if necessitated, for obtaining all good and enticing the >MUTP >promises with the Bank help. May we invite you to our office >for >a meeting at a mutually convenient time? > >A Sustranmember, Mr William Ross is visiting Mumbai from >16 till (I believe) 23 March. We could request him as well to >join after our preliminary meeting before the 16th. Best >wishes. > >Kisan Mehta kisansbc@vsnl.com >Priya Salvi priya_salvi@yahoo.com >Save Bombay Committee >620, Jame Jamshed Road, Dadar East, >Mumbai 400 014 >Tel: 00 91 22 414 9688 >Fax: 00 91 22 415 5536 > >----- Original Message ----- > From: Bina CBalakrishnan >To: sustran-discuss >Cc: kisan mehta ; Walter Hook > >Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 9:20 PM >Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: World Bank loan for MUTP > > From kisansbc at vsnl.com Mon Mar 11 00:32:48 2002 From: kisansbc at vsnl.com (kisan mehta) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 21:02:48 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: World Bank loan for MUTP References: <20020310125755.465.qmail@mailweb25.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <001b01c1c848$d58a5da0$3226020a@im.eth.net> Dear Bina, Your three messages one after another this evening shows your anxiety to improve the conditions in Mumbai. Let us meet at the earliest to start work for a better Mumbai. Priya is out to her farm so amsending thismessage in her absence, Best wishes. Kisan ----- Original Message ----- From: Bina CBalakrishnan To: sustran-discuss Cc: kisan mehta ; Walter Hook Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 6:27 PM Subject: [sustran] Re: World Bank loan for MUTP > Dear Mr. Mehta, Ms. Salvi, > > Thank you for the gracious invitation to meet with you at your > offices in Mumbai. > > Maybe I should tell you where I'm coming from, and where I stand, > first. > > As I said earlier, I am an independent consultant in > Transportation Planning and Engineering, based in Mumbai. I was > fortunate to do a study for Mumbai in 1999-2000, where I > interacted very closely with the senior officers of the MMRDA, the > BMC, the Maharashtra Maritime Board, the Western and Central > Railways, and the then newly formed MRVC. I was impressed with the > commitment I saw there. > > As we will all readily admit, Mumbai as a city is barely > functional. These people try to do their best, despite tremendous > odds, funds crunch, and the sheer weight of numbers. But as an > independent consultant, once I finished my job, I moved on. > > Last year, I was drawn into a very novel movement here in Mumbai. > Aware of the problems facing the city, and also aware of the > Government's limitations in resolving them, a group of NGOs had > come together to stem the city's rapid downslide. The most obvious > problem was transportation, and the immediate fallout - apart from > other issues- was the increased levels of pollution in the city. > The group targeted this, therefore. They called themselves NeTrA - > an acronym for Networking for Transportation Alternatives. I am > now very actively involved with NeTrA, and guide them on > transportation related issues. > > NeTrA is committed to improving the transportation system of > Mumbai, and believes in working very closely with the concerned > authorities in order to achieve this objective. Confrontations > solve very few problems, and generally results in the waste of a > lot of time. NeTrA therefore focuses on issues, and forces a > meaningful dialogue with the Government, getting it to make > commitments, and setting target dates for achieving these > commitments. > > Coming now to the much-discussed MUTP, we at NeTrA believe in > trying the application of management solutions to solve a > transportation problem, before resorting to an engineering, or > supply side, solution. However, having done the earlier job in > Mumbai, I am aware of the limitations of the road network of the > city, and also of the transportation system as a whole. Therefore, > I feel that those projects that have been identified within the > scope of the MUTP are sorely needed, and the sooner they are > implemented, the better off the city and its residents will be. Be > very assured, however, that we are not any part of the "Car > lobby", but are actively trying to promote mass transportation- > both road based and rail based, and if possible, water based > too! > > This does not imply that we have blindly agreed to whatever the > plans involve. We have been attending the public presentations, > and making suggestions, some of which have been included in the > scope of the MUTP. Where we do not agree, we raise an objection, > and it has been looked into. As I said earlier, the entire EIA is > on the net, and available to anyone who may be interested. > > Having said this much, I would be happy to meet with you, either > as an independent planner or as a member of NeTrA. > > My very best regards to you and Ms. Salvi. > Bina C. Balakrishnan > Consultant > Transportation Planning and Engineering > e-mail: binac@rediffmail.com > > > On Sun, 10 Mar 2002 kisan mehta wrote : > >Dear Bina, > > > >We were happy to read your elaborate response to our emails to > >the > >Sustran Colleagues and Walter Hook.on the World Bank Loan for > >the MUTP We initially thought of replying on points picked > >up > > from our reply for giving you response. Then we observed > >that > >you are a Mumbai resident. We thought it may be more > >appropriate > >in the ultimate benefit of Mumbai residents (and visitors too) > >that > >we discuss issues amongst ourselves and draw up a joint working > >plan, if necessitated, for obtaining all good and enticing the > >MUTP > >promises with the Bank help. May we invite you to our office > >for > >a meeting at a mutually convenient time? > > > >A Sustranmember, Mr William Ross is visiting Mumbai from > >16 till (I believe) 23 March. We could request him as well to > >join after our preliminary meeting before the 16th. Best > >wishes. > > > >Kisan Mehta kisansbc@vsnl.com > >Priya Salvi priya_salvi@yahoo.com > >Save Bombay Committee > >620, Jame Jamshed Road, Dadar East, > >Mumbai 400 014 > >Tel: 00 91 22 414 9688 > >Fax: 00 91 22 415 5536 > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bina CBalakrishnan > >To: sustran-discuss > >Cc: kisan mehta ; Walter Hook > > > >Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 9:20 PM > >Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: World Bank loan for MUTP > > > > > > From varghese at krec.ernet.in Wed Mar 13 14:35:09 2002 From: varghese at krec.ernet.in (varghese@krec.ernet.in) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:05:09 +0530 (IST) Subject: [sustran] Re: World Bank loan for MUTP In-Reply-To: <20020310125755.465.qmail@mailweb25.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: Dear sustran Let me refer to what Bina CBalakrishnan wrote on 10 Mar 2002, > As we will all readily admit, Mumbai as a city is barely > functional. These people try to do their best, despite tremendous Mumbai is the commercial capital of the country where 60% of all commercial transactions are undertaken. It is one of the fastest growing financial capitals of the world. To say that " Mumbai as a city is barely functional" as Bina has construed is ridiculous. Should the email from Bina be considered as a 'Self Advertisement Campaign' or is it realy borne out of a genuine concern for Mumbai Transport Scenario?.... Or, is it aimed at providing publicity to NeTrA?... Bina says, "> Coming now to the much-discussed MUTP, we at NeTrA believe in > trying the application of management solutions to solve a > transportation problem, before resorting to an engineering, or > supply side, solution. " It would be indeed beneficial if Bina could elaborate the above line so that the recipients of this email would be in a position to comment on the "management solutions" recommended. I too was a resident of Mumbai for a long time and had also been closely in touch with MMRDA, BEST, etc. The solutions to problems are not just as easy as providing management solutions. These solutions are efective only in the initial stages of development of a city for improvement of traffic scenario. "Management solutions" touch only the fringe of the problem. What we need is a "comprehensive systems approach towards" solving problems in transportation which involves input from various fields related to transportation as most specialists in the field of Transportation Systems Engineering would agree. Also, the solutions to transport problems must be derived from all angles after proper study and careful evaluation of the alternatives to the problem situation. Bina also says > Therefore, > I feel that those projects that have been identified within the > scope of the MUTP are sorely needed, and the sooner they are > implemented, the better off the city and its residents will be. > Be very assured, however, that we are not any part of the "Car > lobby" Whether the projects that were identified within the scope of MUTP are sorely needed or not is a subject that has been discussed by experts in various fields in various forum. Some agree to the projects while some don't. Whether the residents will be benefitted is something that they have to wait and see. How can we claim ourselves to be not party of one lobby or the other? We are all humans and we all have our biases. The bias always creeps in in one way or the other in all our actions and delibrations. Dr. Varghese George, (Transportation Systems Engineering- Specialization) Dept. of Civil Engg, KREC, Surathkal email: varghese@krec.ernet.in -------------------------------------------------- On 10 Mar 2002, Bina CBalakrishnan wrote: > Dear Mr. Mehta, Ms. Salvi, > > Thank you for the gracious invitation to meet with you at your > offices in Mumbai. > > Maybe I should tell you where I'm coming from, and where I stand, > first. > > As I said earlier, I am an independent consultant in > Transportation Planning and Engineering, based in Mumbai. I was > fortunate to do a study for Mumbai in 1999-2000, where I > interacted very closely with the senior officers of the MMRDA, the > BMC, the Maharashtra Maritime Board, the Western and Central > Railways, and the then newly formed MRVC. I was impressed with the > commitment I saw there. > > As we will all readily admit, Mumbai as a city is barely > functional. These people try to do their best, despite tremendous > odds, funds crunch, and the sheer weight of numbers. But as an > independent consultant, once I finished my job, I moved on. > > Last year, I was drawn into a very novel movement here in Mumbai. > Aware of the problems facing the city, and also aware of the > Government's limitations in resolving them, a group of NGOs had > come together to stem the city's rapid downslide. The most obvious > problem was transportation, and the immediate fallout - apart from > other issues- was the increased levels of pollution in the city. > The group targeted this, therefore. They called themselves NeTrA - > an acronym for Networking for Transportation Alternatives. I am > now very actively involved with NeTrA, and guide them on > transportation related issues. > > NeTrA is committed to improving the transportation system of > Mumbai, and believes in working very closely with the concerned > authorities in order to achieve this objective. Confrontations > solve very few problems, and generally results in the waste of a > lot of time. NeTrA therefore focuses on issues, and forces a > meaningful dialogue with the Government, getting it to make > commitments, and setting target dates for achieving these > commitments. > > Coming now to the much-discussed MUTP, we at NeTrA believe in > trying the application of management solutions to solve a > transportation problem, before resorting to an engineering, or > supply side, solution. However, having done the earlier job in > Mumbai, I am aware of the limitations of the road network of the > city, and also of the transportation system as a whole. Therefore, > I feel that those projects that have been identified within the > scope of the MUTP are sorely needed, and the sooner they are > implemented, the better off the city and its residents will be. Be > very assured, however, that we are not any part of the "Car > lobby", but are actively trying to promote mass transportation- > both road based and rail based, and if possible, water based > too! > > This does not imply that we have blindly agreed to whatever the > plans involve. We have been attending the public presentations, > and making suggestions, some of which have been included in the > scope of the MUTP. Where we do not agree, we raise an objection, > and it has been looked into. As I said earlier, the entire EIA is > on the net, and available to anyone who may be interested. > > Having said this much, I would be happy to meet with you, either > as an independent planner or as a member of NeTrA. > > My very best regards to you and Ms. Salvi. > Bina C. Balakrishnan > Consultant > Transportation Planning and Engineering > e-mail: binac@rediffmail.com -------------------------------------------------------------- From kisansbc at vsnl.com Wed Mar 13 20:53:05 2002 From: kisansbc at vsnl.com (kisan mehta) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:23:05 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: World Bank loan for MUTP References: Message-ID: <004a01c1ca85$a308ab40$3226020a@im.eth.net> Dear Dr George Varghese, Walter, Bina and Sustran Colleagues, George has raised pertinent issues. Mumbai is developing, exploding with activities. Mumbai has the highest average population density in the world with more than 26,000 per sq km, some areas touching 100,000. Even the Island City has over 45,000 resident population density with about equal number visiting that part daily. About 65 % of the population stay in slums not having basic amenities. A few Mumbaites rank amongst the wolrd's richest. Water supplywise, Mumbai always gets whatever supply it needs. The World Bank and others are all anxious to provide loans for building more supply sources for diverting water to Mumbai. A flat owner is allocated 135 liters per capita a day while a slum dweller should feel happy if he could draw 25 lt from the comon tap. About 60% of Municipal revenue is from octroi which apply equally to all- rich and poor. Some of the largest business houses located in Mumbai avoid income tax liability upto Rs 3 billion each through legal loopholes. The Municipality spends Rs 3 billion a year on road construction and maintenance without getting anything from vehicle owners. Spending on public health and education are less than half each. State Government drastically cut off budgetted allocation on education and public health but is bent on spending secretly kept Rs 70 billion for motorways. Prices of cooking gas more than doubled in three years with petrol prices rising about 15% and declining recently. Prices of petroleum based items are govt regulated. Mumbai has reputedly the highest 2 and 4 wheeler density in the world. One can own a car with finance provided at practically zero % interest but no scheme for assistance to obtain a bicyle. Air quality is extremely poor. Solid Particulate Matter level is exceedingly high yet the proposed MUTP would build more pavementless carriageways. We thought of meeting Bina before formally responding to her reply to our suggestion to Sustran friends. She has graciously agreed to meet on 14 Mar. More afterwards. Best wishes. Kisan Mehta and Priya Salvi ----- Original Message ----- From: To: sustran-discuss Cc: kisan mehta ; Walter Hook Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: World Bank loan for MUTP > Dear sustran > > Let me refer to what Bina CBalakrishnan wrote on 10 Mar 2002, > > > As we will all readily admit, Mumbai as a city is barely > > functional. These people try to do their best, despite tremendous > > Mumbai is the commercial capital of the country where 60% of all > commercial transactions are undertaken. It is one of the fastest growing > financial capitals of the world. To say that " Mumbai as a city is barely > functional" as Bina has construed is ridiculous. > > Should the email from Bina be considered as a 'Self > Advertisement Campaign' or is it realy borne out of a genuine concern for > Mumbai Transport Scenario?.... Or, is it aimed at providing publicity > to NeTrA?... > > Bina says, > "> Coming now to the much-discussed MUTP, we at NeTrA believe in > > trying the application of management solutions to solve a > > transportation problem, before resorting to an engineering, or > > supply side, solution. " > > It would be indeed beneficial if Bina could elaborate the above > line so that the recipients of this email would be in a position to > comment on the "management solutions" recommended. I too was a resident > of Mumbai for a long time and had also been closely in touch with MMRDA, > BEST, etc. The solutions to problems are not just as easy as providing > management solutions. These solutions are efective only in the initial > stages of development of a city for improvement of traffic scenario. > > "Management solutions" touch only the fringe of the problem. What we need > is a "comprehensive systems approach towards" solving problems in > transportation which involves input from various fields related to > transportation as most specialists in the field of Transportation Systems > Engineering would agree. Also, the solutions to transport problems must > be derived from all angles after proper study and careful evaluation of > the alternatives to the problem situation. > > Bina also says > > Therefore, > > I feel that those projects that have been identified within the > > scope of the MUTP are sorely needed, and the sooner they are > > implemented, the better off the city and its residents will be. > > > Be very assured, however, that we are not any part of the "Car > > lobby" > > Whether the projects that were identified within the scope of MUTP are > sorely needed or not is a subject that has been discussed by experts in > various fields in various forum. Some agree to the projects while some don't. > Whether the residents will be benefitted is something that they have to > wait and see. > > How can we claim ourselves to be not party of one lobby or the other? We > are all humans and we all have our biases. The bias always creeps in in > one way or the other in all our actions and delibrations. > > Dr. Varghese George, > (Transportation Systems Engineering- Specialization) > Dept. of Civil Engg, > KREC, Surathkal > email: varghese@krec.ernet.in > -------------------------------------------------- > > On 10 Mar 2002, Bina CBalakrishnan wrote: > > > Dear Mr. Mehta, Ms. Salvi, > > > > Thank you for the gracious invitation to meet with you at your > > offices in Mumbai. > > > > Maybe I should tell you where I'm coming from, and where I stand, > > first. > > > > As I said earlier, I am an independent consultant in > > Transportation Planning and Engineering, based in Mumbai. I was > > fortunate to do a study for Mumbai in 1999-2000, where I > > interacted very closely with the senior officers of the MMRDA, the > > BMC, the Maharashtra Maritime Board, the Western and Central > > Railways, and the then newly formed MRVC. I was impressed with the > > commitment I saw there. > > > > As we will all readily admit, Mumbai as a city is barely > > functional. These people try to do their best, despite tremendous > > odds, funds crunch, and the sheer weight of numbers. But as an > > independent consultant, once I finished my job, I moved on. > > > > Last year, I was drawn into a very novel movement here in Mumbai. > > Aware of the problems facing the city, and also aware of the > > Government's limitations in resolving them, a group of NGOs had > > come together to stem the city's rapid downslide. The most obvious > > problem was transportation, and the immediate fallout - apart from > > other issues- was the increased levels of pollution in the city. > > The group targeted this, therefore. They called themselves NeTrA - > > an acronym for Networking for Transportation Alternatives. I am > > now very actively involved with NeTrA, and guide them on > > transportation related issues. > > > > NeTrA is committed to improving the transportation system of > > Mumbai, and believes in working very closely with the concerned > > authorities in order to achieve this objective. Confrontations > > solve very few problems, and generally results in the waste of a > > lot of time. NeTrA therefore focuses on issues, and forces a > > meaningful dialogue with the Government, getting it to make > > commitments, and setting target dates for achieving these > > commitments. > > > > Coming now to the much-discussed MUTP, we at NeTrA believe in > > trying the application of management solutions to solve a > > transportation problem, before resorting to an engineering, or > > supply side, solution. However, having done the earlier job in > > Mumbai, I am aware of the limitations of the road network of the > > city, and also of the transportation system as a whole. Therefore, > > I feel that those projects that have been identified within the > > scope of the MUTP are sorely needed, and the sooner they are > > implemented, the better off the city and its residents will be. Be > > very assured, however, that we are not any part of the "Car > > lobby", but are actively trying to promote mass transportation- > > both road based and rail based, and if possible, water based > > too! > > > > This does not imply that we have blindly agreed to whatever the > > plans involve. We have been attending the public presentations, > > and making suggestions, some of which have been included in the > > scope of the MUTP. Where we do not agree, we raise an objection, > > and it has been looked into. As I said earlier, the entire EIA is > > on the net, and available to anyone who may be interested. > > > > Having said this much, I would be happy to meet with you, either > > as an independent planner or as a member of NeTrA. > > > > My very best regards to you and Ms. Salvi. > > Bina C. Balakrishnan > > Consultant > > Transportation Planning and Engineering > > e-mail: binac@rediffmail.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > From binac at rediffmail.com Thu Mar 14 02:00:57 2002 From: binac at rediffmail.com (Bina CBalakrishnan) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:00:57 -0000 Subject: [sustran] Re: World Bank loan for MUTP Message-ID: <20020313170057.8836.qmail@mailweb29.rediffmail.com> Dr. George: The letter you are referring to was preceded by 2 very long installments on the transport system and the MUTP, that I had warned, would be "cumbersome" . Apparently you found them too cumbersome to read. Had you done so, you would not have raised the points you have. However, when I said that Mumbai as a city is barely functional, I should have clearly specified that I meant the transport scenario. As a transport professional, and being a discussion on the transport system, I made the mistake of taking it as understood. As for the rest of your connotations, after nigh on 26 years in this field, I do not intend to demean myself by addressing them. Mrs. B.C. Balakrishnan Consultant Transportation Planning and Engineering On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 varghese@krec.ernet.in wrote : >Dear sustran > > Let me refer to what Bina CBalakrishnan wrote on 10 Mar >2002, > > > As we will all readily admit, Mumbai as a city is barely > > functional. These people try to do their best, despite >tremendous > > Mumbai is the commercial capital of the country where 60% of >all >commercial transactions are undertaken. It is one of the fastest >growing >financial capitals of the world. To say that " Mumbai as a city >is barely >functional" as Bina has construed is ridiculous. > > Should the email from Bina be considered as a >'Self >Advertisement Campaign' or is it realy borne out of a genuine >concern for >Mumbai Transport Scenario?.... Or, is it aimed at providing >publicity >to NeTrA?... > >Bina says, >"> Coming now to the much-discussed MUTP, we at NeTrA believe >in > > trying the application of management solutions to solve a > > transportation problem, before resorting to an engineering, >or > > supply side, solution. " > > It would be indeed beneficial if Bina could elaborate the >above >line so that the recipients of this email would be in a position >to >comment on the "management solutions" recommended. I too was a >resident >of Mumbai for a long time and had also been closely in touch with >MMRDA, >BEST, etc. The solutions to problems are not just as easy as >providing >management solutions. These solutions are efective only in the >initial >stages of development of a city for improvement of traffic >scenario. > >"Management solutions" touch only the fringe of the problem. What >we need >is a "comprehensive systems approach towards" solving problems >in >transportation which involves input from various fields related >to >transportation as most specialists in the field of Transportation >Systems >Engineering would agree. Also, the solutions to transport >problems must >be derived from all angles after proper study and careful >evaluation of >the alternatives to the problem situation. > >Bina also says > > Therefore, > > I feel that those projects that have been identified within >the > > scope of the MUTP are sorely needed, and the sooner they are > > implemented, the better off the city and its residents will >be. > > > Be very assured, however, that we are not any part of the >"Car > > lobby" > > Whether the projects that were identified within the scope of >MUTP are >sorely needed or not is a subject that has been discussed by >experts in >various fields in various forum. Some agree to the projects while >some don't. >Whether the residents will be benefitted is something that they >have to >wait and see. > > How can we claim ourselves to be not party of one lobby or the >other? We >are all humans and we all have our biases. The bias always creeps >in in >one way or the other in all our actions and delibrations. > >Dr. Varghese George, >(Transportation Systems Engineering- Specialization) >Dept. of Civil Engg, >KREC, Surathkal >email: varghese@krec.ernet.in >-------------------------------------------------- > >On 10 Mar 2002, Bina CBalakrishnan wrote: > > > Dear Mr. Mehta, Ms. Salvi, > > > > Thank you for the gracious invitation to meet with you at >your > > offices in Mumbai. > > > > Maybe I should tell you where I'm coming from, and where I >stand, > > first. > > > > As I said earlier, I am an independent consultant in > > Transportation Planning and Engineering, based in Mumbai. I >was > > fortunate to do a study for Mumbai in 1999-2000, where I > > interacted very closely with the senior officers of the MMRDA, >the > > BMC, the Maharashtra Maritime Board, the Western and Central > > Railways, and the then newly formed MRVC. I was impressed with >the > > commitment I saw there. > > > > As we will all readily admit, Mumbai as a city is barely > > functional. These people try to do their best, despite >tremendous > > odds, funds crunch, and the sheer weight of numbers. But as >an > > independent consultant, once I finished my job, I moved on. > > > > Last year, I was drawn into a very novel movement here in >Mumbai. > > Aware of the problems facing the city, and also aware of the > > Government's limitations in resolving them, a group of NGOs >had > > come together to stem the city's rapid downslide. The most >obvious > > problem was transportation, and the immediate fallout - apart > from > > other issues- was the increased levels of pollution in the >city. > > The group targeted this, therefore. They called themselves >NeTrA - > > an acronym for Networking for Transportation Alternatives. I >am > > now very actively involved with NeTrA, and guide them on > > transportation related issues. > > > > NeTrA is committed to improving the transportation system of > > Mumbai, and believes in working very closely with the >concerned > > authorities in order to achieve this objective. >Confrontations > > solve very few problems, and generally results in the waste of >a > > lot of time. NeTrA therefore focuses on issues, and forces a > > meaningful dialogue with the Government, getting it to make > > commitments, and setting target dates for achieving these > > commitments. > > > > Coming now to the much-discussed MUTP, we at NeTrA believe >in > > trying the application of management solutions to solve a > > transportation problem, before resorting to an engineering, >or > > supply side, solution. However, having done the earlier job >in > > Mumbai, I am aware of the limitations of the road network of >the > > city, and also of the transportation system as a whole. >Therefore, > > I feel that those projects that have been identified within >the > > scope of the MUTP are sorely needed, and the sooner they are > > implemented, the better off the city and its residents will >be. Be > > very assured, however, that we are not any part of the "Car > > lobby", but are actively trying to promote mass >transportation- > > both road based and rail based, and if possible, water based > > too! > > > > This does not imply that we have blindly agreed to whatever >the > > plans involve. We have been attending the public >presentations, > > and making suggestions, some of which have been included in >the > > scope of the MUTP. Where we do not agree, we raise an >objection, > > and it has been looked into. As I said earlier, the entire EIA >is > > on the net, and available to anyone who may be interested. > > > > Having said this much, I would be happy to meet with you, >either > > as an independent planner or as a member of NeTrA. > > > > My very best regards to you and Ms. Salvi. > > Bina C. Balakrishnan > > Consultant > > Transportation Planning and Engineering > > e-mail: binac@rediffmail.com > >-------------------------------------------------------------- > > From geobpa at nus.edu.sg Thu Mar 14 10:41:39 2002 From: geobpa at nus.edu.sg (Paul Barter) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:41:39 +0800 Subject: [sustran] FW: WB vacancies: Transport Economic Adviser, Highway Adviser Message-ID: <2C9E855D35B9D01198190020AFFBE8CB0FCB2353@exs04.ex.nus.edu.sg> [This is a forwarded message ... Please do not respond to me or to the list about this. Paul] -------------- Dear Madame/Sir, The World Bank's Central Recruitment Department is completing an international, external assignment to identify suitable candidates for the Washington, D.C. -based positions in the Transport and Urban Development Department: ECONOMIC ADVISER, TRANSPORT The Economic Adviser will provide leadership in formulating sector strategy, raising the awareness of the importance of the role of transport infrastructure in social and economic development, raising the quality of transport economic activities in the Bank, and providing training for transport economics and policy for Bank staff. HIGHWAY ADVISER The Highway Adviser will provide leadership in formulating sector strategy for roads and highways, including: developing greater awareness of the key role of roads and highways in social and economic development, defining the appropriate roles of the public and private sector (as well as civil society and community groups), raising the quality of bank financed activities, and developing appropriate training courses in road and highway subjects for both Bank staff and our clients. We are confident that these are senior and challenging opportunities, and as such we would like to bring these positions to the attention of as many professionals as possible. Therefore we would appreciate any suggestions you may have concerning either individuals or organizations you think we should inform of these vacancies. The relevant position descriptions are attached below for reference. (See http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/files/UTSG/worldbank1.doc for Economic Adviser, Transport.) (See http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/files/UTSG/worldbank2.doc for Highway Adviser.) Applicants should send their CV before March 29, 2002 to: ramorosino@worldbank.org Please do not hesitate to contact us if you need additional information. Best regards, Roberto Amorosino The World Bank, Recruitment Via Labicana, 110 00184 Rome, Italy From geobpa at nus.edu.sg Thu Mar 14 11:03:46 2002 From: geobpa at nus.edu.sg (Paul Barter) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:03:46 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: World Bank loan for MUTP Message-ID: <2C9E855D35B9D01198190020AFFBE8CB0FCB2361@exs04.ex.nus.edu.sg> Dear sustran-discussers I do not want to discourage further forthright exchanges of views in this very interesting debate about Mumbai. I am learning a great deal about a fascinating city. However I would like to strongly discourage any further ad hominem arguments such as this one: > Should the email from Bina be considered as a > 'Self Advertisement Campaign' or is it realy borne out of a > genuine concern for Mumbai Transport Scenario?.... Or, is it > aimed at providing publicity to NeTrA?... I hope you will take my comment here as a constructive effort to keep the discussions civil. Any breaches so far, including the one mentioned above, have been minor but as list manager I feel a duty to hop in quickly in such cases. Please let us all continue to discuss the issues themselves. Whatever any of our motivations may be for participating in this forum, our arguments must stand or fall on the evidence, regardless of who is making the argument or our speculations on why. We are fortunate that sustran-discuss has been relatively free of the "flame wars" (abusive exchanges) that plague some discussion lists. Let's try to keep it that way. All the best, Paul Sustran-discuss list manager From howes at emirates.net.ae Fri Mar 15 03:08:22 2002 From: howes at emirates.net.ae (Alan P Howes) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:08:22 +0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: World Bank loan for MUTP In-Reply-To: <2C9E855D35B9D01198190020AFFBE8CB0FCB2361@exs04.ex.nus.edu.sg> References: <2C9E855D35B9D01198190020AFFBE8CB0FCB2361@exs04.ex.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: Thanks Paul, for doing what moderators should do. I had not been following the Mumbai debate that closely, but we are quite close here (ethnically if not geographically!), and I had been scanning the posts. I was both surprised and disappointed at the tone of the post you quote from below, which I did not feel a worthy contribution to what is normally an excellent, balanced, list. On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:03:46 +0800, Paul Barter wrote to "'sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org'" : >Dear sustran-discussers > >I do not want to discourage further forthright exchanges of views in this >very interesting debate about Mumbai. I am learning a great deal about a >fascinating city. > >However I would like to strongly discourage any further ad hominem arguments >such as this one: > >> Should the email from Bina be considered as a >> 'Self Advertisement Campaign' or is it realy borne out of a >> genuine concern for Mumbai Transport Scenario?.... Or, is it >> aimed at providing publicity to NeTrA?... > >I hope you will take my comment here as a constructive effort to keep the >discussions civil. Any breaches so far, including the one mentioned above, >have been minor but as list manager I feel a duty to hop in quickly in such >cases. > >Please let us all continue to discuss the issues themselves. Whatever any of >our motivations may be for participating in this forum, our arguments must >stand or fall on the evidence, regardless of who is making the argument or >our speculations on why. > >We are fortunate that sustran-discuss has been relatively free of the "flame >wars" (abusive exchanges) that plague some discussion lists. Let's try to >keep it that way. > >All the best, >Paul >Sustran-discuss list manager -- Alan Howes, Dubai, UAE (Otherwise Perthshire, Scotland) alaninthegulf@yahoo.co.uk Professional website (Needs Updating!): http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/alanhowes/ From kisansbc at vsnl.com Fri Mar 15 10:53:15 2002 From: kisansbc at vsnl.com (kisan mehta) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 07:23:15 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: : World Bank loan for MUTP Message-ID: <002401c1cbc4$2bfe5000$3226020a@im.eth.net> Dear Walter, Paul, Bina and Sustran Colleagues, I am rushing this message away to report on our discussion with Bina C. Balakrishnan on the MUTP and other issues relating to transport and movement problems in Mumbai. Bina was gracious enough to meet despite her other pressing engagements. Kanu Kamdar a Sustran colleague joined the discussion. Bina has a sound academic background. In addition to Bachelor in Civil Engineering, she has a Masters' in Town Planning. She is a Consultant on many related projects throughout the country and an active volunteer to NeTra which has just started working for improving transport infrastructure in Mumbai. Her technological approach to solving Mumbai's problems is one way of looking at Mumbai's problems. She feels that MMRDA is doing its best to improve conditions. Her contention is that the MUTP I (where the Bank had extended a loan already amortised) was meant to improve public road transport (BEST Undertaking) and now is the time for improving transport infrastructure. The Bank assistance to the MMRDA would go a long way in this direction. We could not go into details on the MUTP in the present form or on its evolution over last ten years due to her other urgent engagement. . We could as well not convince her on the need for a multipronged coordinated approach and involvement of citizens from planning to implementation as the main (probably the only stake holders) for developing a sustainable and yet efficient movement system. The fact remains. A number of news reports have appeared during last ten days which indicate that the Bank is bent on extending the loan. Information received clearly show that the Bank assistance in the present situation would increase motorisation and affect the environment seriously. The Bank would be contributing to the environmental depradation if the minimum measures suggested are not incorporated. Maharashtra Govt is in serious financial difficulty and yet it is pursuing the West Island Expressway now renamed as Bandra Nariman Sealink (likely to cost not less than Rs 80 billion, a tightly kept secret). . In this situation, we would like to reemphasize our request to Walter Hook and Sustran Colleagues to get the Bank to accept the minimum to save Mumbai from declining further in quality of life. We do not wish to comment on her responses to some of the basic issues in our earlier communications that emphasize on live citizen involvement and developing a sysetm, affordable by the common man. Cost of MUTP and the Bank loanwould be aburden to citizens who willsuffer more. Best wishes. Kisan and Priya ----- Original Message ----- From: kisan mehta To: ; Cc: kisan mehta ; Walter Hook Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: World Bank loan for MUTP > Dear Dr George Varghese, Walter, Bina and Sustran Colleagues, > > George has raised pertinent issues. Mumbai is developing, exploding > with activities. Mumbai has the highest average population density in > the world with more than 26,000 per sq km, some areas touching > 100,000. Even the Island City has over 45,000 resident population > density with about equal number visiting that part daily. About 65 % > of the population stay in slums not having basic amenities. A few > Mumbaites rank amongst the wolrd's richest. > > Water supplywise, Mumbai always gets whatever supply it needs. The > World Bank and others are all anxious to provide loans for building > more supply sources for diverting water to Mumbai. A flat owner is > allocated 135 liters per capita a day while a slum dweller should feel > happy if he could draw 25 lt from the comon tap. About 60% of > Municipal revenue is from octroi which apply equally to all- rich and > poor. Some of the largest business houses located in Mumbai avoid > income tax liability upto Rs 3 billion each through legal loopholes. > The Municipality spends Rs 3 billion a year on road construction and > maintenance without getting anything from vehicle owners. Spending on > public health and education are less than half each. State Government > drastically cut off budgetted allocation on education and public health > but is bent on spending secretly kept Rs 70 billion for motorways. > > Prices of cooking gas more than doubled in three years with > petrol prices rising about 15% and declining recently. Prices of > petroleum based items are govt regulated. Mumbai has reputedly > the highest 2 and 4 wheeler density in the world. One can own a > car with finance provided at practically zero % interest but no > scheme for assistance to obtain a bicyle. > > Air quality is extremely poor. Solid Particulate Matter level > is exceedingly high yet the proposed MUTP would build more > pavementless carriageways. We thought of meeting Bina before > formally responding to her reply to our suggestion to Sustran > friends. She has graciously agreed to meet on 14 Mar. More > afterwards. Best wishes. > > Kisan Mehta and Priya Salvi > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: sustran-discuss > Cc: kisan mehta ; Walter Hook > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:05 AM > Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: World Bank loan for MUTP > > > > Dear sustran > > > > Let me refer to what Bina CBalakrishnan wrote on 10 Mar 2002, > > > > > As we will all readily admit, Mumbai as a city is barely > > > functional. These people try to do their best, despite tremendous > > > > Mumbai is the commercial capital of the country where 60% of all > > commercial transactions are undertaken. It is one of the fastest growing > > financial capitals of the world. To say that " Mumbai as a city is barely > > functional" as Bina has construed is ridiculous. > > > > Should the email from Bina be considered as a 'Self > > Advertisement Campaign' or is it realy borne out of a genuine concern for > > Mumbai Transport Scenario?.... Or, is it aimed at providing publicity > > to NeTrA?... > > > > Bina says, > > "> Coming now to the much-discussed MUTP, we at NeTrA believe in > > > trying the application of management solutions to solve a > > > transportation problem, before resorting to an engineering, or > > > supply side, solution. " > > > > It would be indeed beneficial if Bina could elaborate the above > > line so that the recipients of this email would be in a position to > > comment on the "management solutions" recommended. I too was a resident > > of Mumbai for a long time and had also been closely in touch with MMRDA, > > BEST, etc. The solutions to problems are not just as easy as providing > > management solutions. These solutions are efective only in the initial > > stages of development of a city for improvement of traffic scenario. > > > > "Management solutions" touch only the fringe of the problem. What we need > > is a "comprehensive systems approach towards" solving problems in > > transportation which involves input from various fields related to > > transportation as most specialists in the field of Transportation Systems > > Engineering would agree. Also, the solutions to transport problems must > > be derived from all angles after proper study and careful evaluation of > > the alternatives to the problem situation. > > > > Bina also says > > > Therefore, I feel that those projects that have been identified within the > > > scope of the MUTP are sorely needed, and the sooner they are > > > implemented, the better off the city and its residents will be be very assured, however, that we are not any part of the "Car lobby" > > > > Whether the projects that were identified within the scope of MUTP are > > sorely needed or not is a subject that has been discussed by experts in > > various fields in various forum. Some agree to the projects while some > don't. Whether the residents will be benefitted is something that they have to > > wait and see. > > > > How can we claim ourselves to be not party of one lobby or the other? We > > are all humans and we all have our biases. The bias always creeps in in > > one way or the other in all our actions and delibrations. > > > > Dr. Varghese George, > > (Transportation Systems Engineering- Specialization) > > Dept. of Civil Engg, > > KREC, Surathkal > > email: varghese@krec.ernet.in > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > On 10 Mar 2002, Bina CBalakrishnan wrote: > > > > > Dear Mr. Mehta, Ms. Salvi, > > > > > > Thank you for the gracious invitation to meet with you at your > > > offices in Mumbai. > > > > > > Maybe I should tell you where I'm coming from, and where I stand, first. > > > > > > As I said earlier, I am an independent consultant in > > > Transportation Planning and Engineering, based in Mumbai. I was > > > fortunate to do a study for Mumbai in 1999-2000, where I > > > interacted very closely with the senior officers of the MMRDA, the > > > BMC, the Maharashtra Maritime Board, the Western and Central > > > Railways, and the then newly formed MRVC. I was impressed with the > > > commitment I saw there. > > > > > > As we will all readily admit, Mumbai as a city is barely > > > functional. These people try to do their best, despite tremendous > > > odds, funds crunch, and the sheer weight of numbers. But as an > > > independent consultant, once I finished my job, I moved on. > > > > > > Last year, I was drawn into a very novel movement here in Mumbai. > > > Aware of the problems facing the city, and also aware of the > > > Government's limitations in resolving them, a group of NGOs had > > > come together to stem the city's rapid downslide. The most obvious > > > problem was transportation, and the immediate fallout - apart from > > > other issues- was the increased levels of pollution in the city. > > > The group targeted this, therefore. They called themselves NeTrA - > > > an acronym for Networking for Transportation Alternatives. I am > > > now very actively involved with NeTrA, and guide them on > > > transportation related issues. > > > > > > NeTrA is committed to improving the transportation system of > > > Mumbai, and believes in working very closely with the concerned > > > authorities in order to achieve this objective. Confrontations > > > solve very few problems, and generally results in the waste of a > > > lot of time. NeTrA therefore focuses on issues, and forces a > > > meaningful dialogue with the Government, getting it to make > > > commitments, and setting target dates for achieving these > > > commitments. > > > > > > Coming now to the much-discussed MUTP, we at NeTrA believe in > > > trying the application of management solutions to solve a > > > transportation problem, before resorting to an engineering, or > > > supply side, solution. However, having done the earlier job in > > > Mumbai, I am aware of the limitations of the road network of the > > > city, and also of the transportation system as a whole. Therefore, > > > I feel that those projects that have been identified within the > > > scope of the MUTP are sorely needed, and the sooner they are > > > implemented, the better off the city and its residents will be. Be > > > very assured, however, that we are not any part of the "Car > > > lobby", but are actively trying to promote mass transportation- > > > both road based and rail based, and if possible, water based too! > > > > > > This does not imply that we have blindly agreed to whatever the > > > plans involve. We have been attending the public presentations, > > > and making suggestions, some of which have been included in the > > > scope of the MUTP. Where we do not agree, we raise an objection, > > > and it has been looked into. As I said earlier, the entire EIA is > > > on the net, and available to anyone who may be interested. > > > > > > Having said this much, I would be happy to meet with you, either > > > as an independent planner or as a member of NeTrA. > > > > > > My very best regards to you and Ms. Salvi. > > > Bina C. Balakrishnan > > > Consultant, Transportation Planning and Engineering > > > e-mail: binac@rediffmail.com From varghese at krec.ernet.in Wed Mar 20 14:07:20 2002 From: varghese at krec.ernet.in (varghese@krec.ernet.in) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 10:37:20 +0530 (IST) Subject: [sustran] Re: World Bank loan for MUTP In-Reply-To: <20020313170057.8836.qmail@mailweb29.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Mrs. Bina CBalakrishnan, On 20th march 2002, Bina wrote (only a part of the mail is referred to here). > Dear George, > ..... > However, when I said that Mumbai as a city is barely functional, > I should have clearly specified that I meant the transport > scenario. As a transport professional, and being a discussion on > the transport system, I made the mistake of taking it as > understood. > ...... Please note that economic development of a city is highly dependent on basic infrastructure provided which includes transport facilities. It is just not possible to isolate the transport scenario in Mumbai and say that it is 'barely functional'. "Transport professionals" would be aware of this. varghese From ecoplan.adsl at wanadoo.fr Wed Mar 20 19:37:21 2002 From: ecoplan.adsl at wanadoo.fr (Eric Britton) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:37:21 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Next Great World Car Free Day - Asia/Pacific Region Message-ID: <002101c1cffb$37e10800$6501a8c0@home> ************************************************************************ **** Ex Sum for Asian Cities: The goal of this little cooperative UN regional project is to bring a dozen or so mayors and their senior representatives from the Asia/Pacific region to Fremantle Australia to observe a smaller "bottom-up" Car Free Day project, and to participate in a Regional Practicum to test for possible applications to cities across the region on the lookout for ideas that might help them move to greater sustainability.. For more, go to http://uncfd.org. ************************************************************************ **** Paris, Wednesday, March 20, 2002 ? Dear Friends, ? Here is some advance news on the next World Car Free Day event, which is going to take place in Fremantle Australia on Thursday, 9 May, in cooperation with the United Nations Car Free Days Programme.? The UN team is working with the City of Fremantle and a growing array of participating Australian government and other concerned agencies and groups, to organize around the CFD events the second Regional CFD Practicum for mayors and their representatives from the Asia/Pacific region.? You will find the first rounds of information on this on the UN site at ?http://uncfd.org , and shortly on the new Fremantle site, which will be at CarFre.com. ? This second event of the UN program is going to provide a rich and we think highly instructive contrast with the first, which was the cycle of activities organized around the latest Bogota Car Free Day, which you will also find described in detail on http://uncfd.org. ?In Bogota we saw a situation in which the Car Free Day started out covering all of a sprawling Third World mega-city of more than seven million people of whom fewer than 20% car users, whereas in Fremantle the starting point is the central area of a small town of fewer than thirty thousand with close to total car dependency. ?Too small to count?? Hmm. ? ? It may pay you to keep your eye on Fremantle as this develops, since it sits within an extensive metro area, Perth, of well more than one million people, and where it may turn out that the small project at the origin has far more extensive impacts than one may have first anticipated. ?How do you start something like this in an area of total car dependence?? How do you make it extend to other parts of the region and other cities?? Is there a lesson for all in their casual Australian title, Shed your Car Day?? Will it make a difference that one of their main partners from the outset in this has been the local Chamber of Commerce? Can this ?start-small? approach also have lessons for the Third World, perhaps as many in its own way as the very large projects such as Bogota? ? ? -????????? On the look-out for Partners:? As yet, this is a project that is working on a shoe-string budget. Yet it has world level goals.? How are these going to be achieved?? Through cooperation, partnerships and volunteers. ?Here are some of the things on our short list that we are on the look out for and where you may be able to be of help: o??????? Funds to cover travel and related expenses for mayors from the Asian region, who feel it could be useful for the to attend the three day Practicum in May. o??????? Support to permit Webcasting of the Fremantle events so that they can be observed and studied by people and cities anywhere in the world. ?? -????????? Independent Monitoring and Reporting: One of the things that the organizers have much in mind is to give special attention to the job of providing in-depth independent expert monitoring and analysis of the Day, its impacts, and the attitudes of people before, during and after. ?This is important because it is the exceptional CFD that does this, thereby offering to other cities as well as their own citizens some reliable concrete indicators of actual accomplishment.? And what might be done better the next time around. -????????? An Open Process: ?The members of this forum and others are invited to share your ideas and suggestions for good ways to monitor Car Free Day events, so that we have a firm idea of what happened, what worked, and what may need more work and thought before launching the next round of projects. ?The results of this analysis will be posted on the site, and it is hoped that the basic working format will provide a useful tool or point of departure for future projects anywhere in the world. -????????? World CFD Inventory: ??The UN programme is also working to develop an open world wide inventory of Car Free Day projects, past, present and even planned.? You will see more on this at http://uncfd.org. ? In conclusion: ?As you will see from the website, the goal of this entire operation is to report to the forthcoming World Summit on Sustainable development of the UN, which is being held from August 16-Sept 4 in Johannesburg, South Africa.? The World Summit (?Rio plus 10?) is particularly on the lookout for promising new approaches to advance the word sustainability agenda, and we think that Car Free Days is one. ? Questions, suggestions and challenges are more than welcome. ?If you feel that they are of universal interest, we invite you to post them to the site here at WorldCarfreeDays@yahoogroups.com, otherwise I will be pleased to hear from you here at eb@uncfd.org. ? With all good wishes, ? Eric Britton? ? Senior International Advisor United Nations Car Free Days Program at http://www.uncfd.org ? The Commons __ technology, economy, society__ Le Frene, 8/10 rue Joseph Bara, 75006 Paris, France Day phone: +331 4326 1323 Mobile: +336 8096 7879 24 hour Fax/Voicemail hotline: +1 888 677-4866 http://ecoplan.org/?? IP Videoconference: 193.252.199.213 Email: ecoplan.adsl@wanadoo.fr?? ? ? ? ? ? ? From pascal at gn.apc.org Wed Mar 20 22:11:36 2002 From: pascal at gn.apc.org (Pascal Desmond) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:11:36 +0000 Subject: [sustran] Jeepneys a commuter dream Message-ID: <20020320131136.24096@relay.plus.net> article from The Christian Science Monitor's electronic edition. Headline: Jeepneys are a commuter's dream Byline: Jonathan Rowe Date: 02/21/2002 (POINT REYES STATION, CALIF.) Freedom can mean different and even opposite things. It can mean the freedom to emit muck into the air, for example, or the freedom to breathe clean air. In regard to transportation, it can mean the freedom to drive a car or the freedom that comes from not needing a car. A beacon of that latter freedom is an unlikely place - the Philippines, a nation known mainly in the US these days for political melodrama and Muslim rebels. In the Philippines you can get virtually any place you need to go - from downtown Manila to the most remote rural barangay (village) - with little waiting and for very little money, without a car. Not only that. The freedom of movement in the Philippines comes with a freedom of expression on the public roadways rarely experienced in the automobile-oriented US. This remarkable transportation system requires no high-tech gizmos, massive investment, or grandiose public or corporate schemes. To the contrary, it is based upon a home-grown vehicle that literally is made from spare parts. It is called a "Jeepney"; and with adaptation, it could be part of the answer to America's traffic congestion and bad air. The story began with the military jeeps that US troops left behind in the Philippines after World War II. Some enterprising Filipino thought to extend the back and put in two rows of benches, as in troop transport vehicles. There were open slots for windows, and an open doorway in the rear so people could get in and out quickly. Other places had jitneys. The Philippines would have Jeepneys, a kind of stretch jeep that is omnipresent on the Philippine roads today. Jeepneys run regular routes, like buses. They will take you just about anywhere for the equivalent of less than 50 cents. So pervasive and convenient is the Jeepney network that the Ford Foundation determined a while back that its grant officers in the Philippines didn't need cars. Jeepneys would do just fine - with the advantage that, unlike most American officials there, Ford Foundation employees actually would experience how ordinary Filipinos live. The system has answers for many deficiencies of mass transit in the US. For one thing, there's little waiting. In and around cities, the flow of vehicles is continuous. It's rare to wait more than a few minutes. If comfort is an issue, you generally can find an upscale version - an air conditioned van - that will carry you for a higher price. The system is totally flexible. Need groceries after work? No problem. There's a supplementary fleet of motorbikes with enclosed sidecars - called "tricycles" - that will pick you up at the market and take you right to your door. The versatility of the system is extraordinary. In rural areas, farmers toss sacks of rice on top of Jeepneys - or even inside - and take them to market. I saw tricycles loaded with rugs, cola, a heavy farm implement, and even, on a rural road, a couple of pigs (which I suspect were having their last tricycle experiences). Since Jeepneys and tricycles are made locally, they provide local jobs, and can be adapted to local conditions. They are built simply, so they are easy to repair. Where American automobiles sit unused most of the day, the Jeepneys are in constant service. They carry 20 passengers or more instead of one or two. On top of all this, the Jeepneys are owned by individuals, so there is no question of government or corporate control. The benefits of Jeepneys and tricycles go beyond transportation, however. They also provide something else - creativity and free expression on the streets. The US is supposed to be the world capital of free expression. Yet it is amazing how corporate and constricted our public roadways have become. Most of our cars are exactly as they came from the factory. Advertising covers trucks, buses, and billboards. Only an occasional bumper sticker gets a word in edgewise. Jeepneys, by contrast, are exemplars of home-grown design. They range from sleek, streamlined models to "funkmobiles" with loud paint jobs and riotous hood ornamentation. Some appear to have been in service since General MacArthur left the island in 1945. Newer van-type models also are creeping in. But together they constitute a kind of folk art - and street poetry as well. In place of corporate logos, they sport names the way boats do. Some honor wives and children. Some profess religious devotion ("God Is Good," "Walk with Christ"), while others attest the prowess of the driver ("Sensitive," "Romantic"). It is strange, as an American, to have to travel halfway around the world, to a nation usually dismissed as "underdeveloped," to find such a developed capacity for free expression. Jeepneys couldn't be transplanted whole to the US, of course. They'd need more headroom for passengers and better protection from weather, for example. The emissions would have to be reduced. To keep traffic flowing, we'd need to establish regular stops, at least in urban areas. (In the Philippines the Jeepneys stop anywhere.) But as a concept for mass transit and a feeder for rail lines, the Jeepneys system would be hard to beat. As for mobility, I rarely have felt so free. * Jonathan Rowe is a fellow at the Tomales Bay Institute, and a former Monitor staff writer. (c) Copyright 2002 The Christian Science Monitor. All rights reserved. Click here to email this story to a friend: http://www.csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/send-story?2002/02/21/text/p11s02.txt The Christian Science Monitor-- an independent daily newspaper providing context and clarity on national and international news, peoples and cultures, and social trends. Online at http://www.csmonitor.com Click here to order a free sample copy of the print edition of the Monitor: http://www.csmonitor.com/aboutus/sample_issue.html distributed in the interests of research, etc. -- Sl?n agus Beannacht [Irish for Take care and Best wishes] Pascal From debi at beag.net Mon Mar 25 21:16:55 2002 From: debi at beag.net (Debi Goenka) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 17:46:55 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Pity we didn't think of this earlier! Message-ID: <002801c1d3f6$f4ca51c0$2c9944ca@desktop> Saucy Jordan poster slows down traffic London, March 25 A poster of busty model Jordan in a microbikini has gone on show at an English village roadside - to stop drivers speeding, The Sun reported. "Mick Madden came up with the idea after signs reading "Speed Kills" and "Slow Down And Save A Child" failed to put the brakes on motorists. "Now they are crawling through Brockholes, West Yorks, at a snail's pace so they can gawp at the poster of Jordan's famous 34FF speedbumps," Sun added. Mick has sent the 23-year-old model a thank you card signed by grateful residents. He told Sun: "Now Jordan's in place cars have been slowing down to ogle at her beautiful body. "Well, what redblooded male wouldn't?" Local campaigner Craig Bailey, 27, told The Sun: "Having Jordan at the roadside is a saucy idea, but it could save lives. I think the Government should adopt the scheme, putting posters of her across the country. It would make trips safer and more enjoyable." ------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorised copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden. -------------------------------------------------------- Debi Goenka Bombay Environmental Action Group e-mail: debi@beag.net /&\ debi@powersurfer.net Environmental Education Office Kalbadevi Municipal School # 54, 2nd floor, Mumbai 400002 Tel:91-22-2423126 Tfax:91-22-2426385 Residence B 502 Glengate, Hiran Gardens Powai Mumbai 400076 Tel:91-22-5700638 Tfax:91-22-5701459 ---------------------------------------------- From howes at emirates.net.ae Tue Mar 26 02:50:10 2002 From: howes at emirates.net.ae (Alan P Howes) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:50:10 +0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pity we didn't think of this earlier! In-Reply-To: <002801c1d3f6$f4ca51c0$2c9944ca@desktop> References: <002801c1d3f6$f4ca51c0$2c9944ca@desktop> Message-ID: Funny, we've just been talking about traffic calming here! Not sure whether Dubai would wear this one though - if I wanted to know what Jordan looked like I would no doubt find the websites blocked! Of course, it wouldn't stop women speeding - but they don't tend to err in that particular direction ... On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 17:46:55 +0530, Debi Goenka wrote to Sustran : >Saucy Jordan poster slows down traffic > >London, March 25 > >A poster of busty model Jordan in a microbikini has gone on show at an >English village roadside - to stop drivers speeding, The Sun reported. > >"Mick Madden came up with the idea after signs reading "Speed Kills" and >"Slow Down And Save A Child" failed to put the brakes on motorists. > >"Now they are crawling through Brockholes, West Yorks, at a snail's pace so >they can gawp at the poster of Jordan's famous 34FF speedbumps," Sun added. > >Mick has sent the 23-year-old model a thank you card signed by grateful >residents. He told Sun: "Now Jordan's in place cars have been slowing down >to ogle at her beautiful body. "Well, what redblooded male wouldn't?" > >Local campaigner Craig Bailey, 27, told The Sun: "Having Jordan at the >roadside is a saucy idea, but it could save lives. I think the Government >should adopt the scheme, putting posters of her across the country. It would >make trips safer and more enjoyable." > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------- >This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you >are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error) >please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any >unauthorised copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this >e-mail is strictly forbidden. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >Debi Goenka >Bombay Environmental Action Group > >e-mail: debi@beag.net /&\ debi@powersurfer.net > > >Environmental Education Office > >Kalbadevi Municipal School ># 54, 2nd floor, Mumbai 400002 > >Tel:91-22-2423126 Tfax:91-22-2426385 > > >Residence > >B 502 Glengate, Hiran Gardens >Powai Mumbai 400076 > >Tel:91-22-5700638 Tfax:91-22-5701459 >---------------------------------------------- -- Alan Howes, Dubai, UAE (Otherwise Perthshire, Scotland) alaninthegulf@yahoo.co.uk Professional website (Needs Updating!): http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/alanhowes/ From ccordero at amauta.rcp.net.pe Wed Mar 27 08:45:53 2002 From: ccordero at amauta.rcp.net.pe (Carlos Cordero V.) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 18:45:53 -0500 Subject: [sustran] marzo a escala humana Message-ID: <007c01c1d520$d6ff2640$49b601c8@q8v1n7> Bolet?n del transporte a escala humana Febrero- Marzo, 02 Otro mundo es posible (I) Es un largo viaje el que va desde las peripecias a tres tomos de Frodo Baggins hasta la adolescencia interminable de Harry, algo de sesenta a?os. Ambos proceden de las mismas tierras y si miramos dentro las historias, comparten cierto parentesco. La se?ora Rowling debe haber le?do muchas veces a Tolkien y sus predecesores: la capa invisible y el espejo del tiempo confundido, los poderes que residen en las piedras y el mundo dual han sido escritas en otro tiempo y para otros lectores, cual im?genes recurrentes que sobreviven al tiempo. Ambas historias tienen como emblema la diversidad. En ellas los humanos son s?lo una de las especies que disfrutan y sufren estas tierras. En El Se?or de los Anillos, Hobbits, Elfos, Enanos, y a?n la propia naturaleza (los seres del bosque) poseen voluntad propia, comparten el mundo que les toca y aprenden a descubrir en la alianza (uno de los significados del anillo) y la comunidad, el sentido de trascendencia y el destino. Entre los magos y humanos de Rowling hay permanentes intersecciones, lazos creados a trav?s de "mestizos" como el propio Harry, o de origen humano pero magos por vocaci?n como Hermione, todos iguales y diferentes. entrelazados y discriminados por quienes no aceptan las mezclas ni reconocen las diferencias. Pero los habitantes de la Tierra Media y Hodgwarts no s?lo son diferentes entre s?, tambi?n los son en s?, pues no poseen una naturaleza perenne, est?n sujetos a la tentaci?n, a que la ambici?n y el desprecio por el otro los asalte y los convierta tambi?n en otros, dependientes de la voluntad del poder, fantasmas de s? mismos, muertos en vida. Es en esta l?gica que la comunidad es fortaleza y no significa perdida de autonom?a, ni el individualismo un valor en si mismo. Los protagonistas centrales del destino y la lucha contra el mal no tienen m?s fuerza que la voluntad ante la adversidad, ni dependen de m?sculos que les revientan las camisas, ni de armas que masacran a los otros. Tienen miedo y de ?l aprenden, son peque?os y simples, Hobbits de un pueblo apacible hasta que le destino les cruza la historia o como los aprendices de Hodgwarts que descubren lo que son haciendo. Ambos escuchan a los ancianos y beben de la sabidur?a, ayudados por la premonici?n, los signos y el presagio. No lo saben pero intuyen que el tiempo est? a favor de los peque?os. Probablemente si vivieran hoy se hubieran reunido en Porto Alegre y no en Mordor que queda m?s al norte. Otro mundo es posible (II) La realidad con su habitual terquedad vuelve a las andadas. En Bogot?, Cali y Valledupar se celebr? por tercera vez el "D?a Sin Auto". Seg?n informa el principal peri?dico de mi ciudad "fue un gran taller pedag?gico para demostrar que el carro particular es s?lo un instrumento y no un elemento de desarrollo y crecimiento. Adem?s permiti? fortalecer los h?bitos relacionados con la movilidad segura y evitar los comportamientos que generan accidentalidad en las v?as" Como mucha gente parece estar interesada en otros mundos posibles, una treintena de alcaldes vinieron de Europa, EE.UU y Latinoam?rica para ver la movida. Antes hemos comentado aqu? la experiencia y sus posibilidades. Se trata de retirar temporalmente un elemento de la realidad, v.g. el auto, para permitir consolidar espacios ciudadanos y apropiaciones simb?licas de la ciudad, adem?s de medir la productividad y diversos fen?menos sociales. No cambia el mundo, pero alisa el terreno para otro posible. Las monedas En el peri?dico las noticias sobre Europa y el Euro mientras miro el racimo de monedas que rebosan el plato de bronce que descubr? en un mercado de pulgas en Dortmund. Brillan cuando el tragaluz se enciende, mudos testigos de fugaces despedidas, de andenes que se alejan, de visitas inesperadas y encuentros furtivos, de aeropuertos iguales. Los viejos florines de la primera vez y la Ginebra de Utrech, el Marco que dur? un a?o entero, el d?a inmenso de Estrasburgo, los soles felices de Madrid, la ni?a que me prest? el alma en Barcelona, las cervezas de la Gran Plaza y el secreto de la noche en Bruselas, el cumplea?os de Praga. Las miro y s? que felizmente nunca podr?n comprar nada, nada que no tuviera antes, nada que no hubiera ya dado. Descubro su secreto y constato que el dinero m?s feliz es aquel que no necesitas, el que pierde sentido, el que se convierte en escultura peque?a y adorno, en Dios olvidado, bajo la luz que la ma?ana engulle, all? tan lejos. Las dos caras Hablando de monedas, la vida siempre presenta dos caras, la que mira al piso, seg?n informa el Diario Reforma, queda en el D.F. de M?xico donde la administraci?n excluy? en el plan 2000-20006 las ciclov?as de los planes urbanos e insiste en construir segundos pisos para v?as (ej. en Viaducto y Perif?rico) que s?lo fomentan el uso del autom?vil y marginar el transporte p?blico en una ciudad que se ahoga de contaminaci?n y segregaci?n social. La otra cara de la moneda, la que mira al cielo, en Londres, cuyo Alcalde informa con cierto orgullo que aprobaron el presupuesto para expandir la red de ciclopistas urbana. La verdad hubi?ramos preferido que la moneda cayera al rev?s y si fuera posible parada en el borde. Pero de los reveses tambi?n se aprende y no hay equilibrio posible sin ca?das, como sabe todo aquel que alguna vez aprendi? a manejar una bicicleta. No pasar?n Como alguien que ha vivido casi toda su vida en el distrito de Miraflores, no puedo dejar de reproducir el comentario del Se?or Augusto Elmore en la revista Caretas (edici?n del 14 de marzo). El mismo exime de mayores comentarios pero no de acci?n: "Cuando los municipios no tienen nada mejor que hacer (y parece sobrarles la plata), se dedican a planear obras tan discutibles y verdaderamente inveros?miles como la de construir bajo los parques Central y Kennedy de Miraflores un centro comercial y una playa de estacionamiento gigantes. La principal aberraci?n - aparte de lo grave que significar?a destruir ?reas verdes - es la de pensar en un centro comercial subterr?neo en un distrito en el que basta darse una vuelta para comprobar los centenares de negocios, locales y galer?as comerciales que se encuentran cerrados en la actualidad. Los miraflorinos no tolerar?n este desprop?sito". Se?ora ley El Congreso del Per? promulg? la Ley del trabajo y restableci? la jornada de ocho horas. Muy bien, excelente. Pero entend?monos, la jornada laboral no empieza en la puerta de la f?brica o en la puerta de la oficina, se inicia en la puerta de la casa y a veces dentro. La diferencia entre los tiempos de los m?rtires de Chicago y nuestros d?as, es que ahora la jornada se alarga entre la casa y el trabajo. Que las ciudades crecen, que a falta de buen transporte p?blico y condiciones para los medios a escala humana la jornada se va a la calle, queda despedida, empieza y termina cada d?a en la v?a p?blica. Congraso Cuando cerramos este bolet?n de vida breve e incierta nos informan que el Congreso Nacional pretende revivir la importaci?n de autos usados. El argumento es el mismo de siempre "actividad que genera puestos de trabajo" En Jap?n ser? y algunos pocos en Per?, claro, pero el trabajo de los otros veinticuatro millones de peruanos seguro no se afecta por la productividad de los asm?ticos que faltan a sus labores, por el exceso de congesti?n, por la accidentalidad que sube. No, esa productividad como que no cuenta a veces. Memorias de Jorgito El emperador de Roma visit? el Per? esta semana y los diarios hablan de su seguridad, de la regional y de la imagen de nuestro pa?s de la misma manera que algunas familias se preocupan de la limpieza de casa s?lo cuando vienen visitas. Me parece que la seguridad es un asunto muy importante (clar?simo despu?s del criminal atentado en las inmediaciones de la embajada de EEUU) pero si El Emperador realmente estuviera preocupado por la seguridad del mundo firmar?a el tratado de Kioto de cuyo resultado depende la vida de millones en nuestro planeta y no andar?a por doquier dando tanto discurso soso. Salvo mejor opini?n, por supuesto. Carlos Cordero Vel?squez CICLORED - Centro de Asesor?a y Capacitaci?n para el Transporte y Ambiente Psje. Lavalle 110 Lima 04 Per? tel : (51 1) 4671322 casilla: ccordero@amauta.rcp.net.pe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/private/sustran-discuss/attachments/20020326/a95755ad/attachment.htm From APHOWES at dm.gov.ae Wed Mar 27 15:33:05 2002 From: APHOWES at dm.gov.ae (Alan Patrick Howes) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:33:05 +0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: marzo a escala humana Message-ID: Err, what's this? Harry Potter and Frodo meet sustainable transport? Sounds fascinating! But Google translation failed to enlighten me much - can anyone help? -- Alan P Howes, Special Transport Advisor, Dubai Municipality Public Transport Department aphowes@dm.gov.ae Tel: +971 4 286 1616 ext 214 Mobile: +971 50 5989661 -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Cordero V. [mailto:ccordero@amauta.rcp.net.pe] Sent: Wed, March 27, 2002 3:46 AM To: Undisclosed-Recipient:@siti.jca.apc.org;;;; Subject: [sustran] marzo a escala humana Bolet?n del transporte a escala humana Febrero- Marzo, 02 Otro mundo es posible (I) Es un largo viaje el que va desde las peripecias a tres tomos de Frodo Baggins hasta la adolescencia interminable de Harry, algo de sesenta a?os. Ambos proceden de las mismas tierras y si miramos dentro las historias, comparten cierto parentesco. La se?ora Rowling debe haber le?do muchas veces a Tolkien y sus predecesores: la capa invisible y el espejo del tiempo confundido, los poderes que residen en las piedras y el mundo dual han sido escritas en otro tiempo y para otros lectores, cual im?genes recurrentes que sobreviven al tiempo. Ambas historias tienen como emblema la diversidad. En ellas los humanos son s?lo una de las especies que disfrutan y sufren estas tierras. En El Se?or de los Anillos, Hobbits, Elfos, Enanos, y a?n la propia naturaleza (los seres del bosque) poseen voluntad propia, comparten el mundo que les toca y aprenden a descubrir en la alianza (uno de los significados del anillo) y la comunidad, el sentido de trascendencia y el destino. Entre los magos y humanos de Rowling hay permanentes intersecciones, lazos creados a trav?s de "mestizos" como el propio Harry, o de origen humano pero magos por vocaci?n como Hermione, todos iguales y diferentes. entrelazados y discriminados por quienes no aceptan las mezclas ni reconocen las diferencias. Pero los habitantes de la Tierra Media y Hodgwarts no s?lo son diferentes entre s?, tambi?n los son en s?, pues no poseen una naturaleza perenne, est?n sujetos a la tentaci?n, a que la ambici?n y el desprecio por el otro los asalte y los convierta tambi?n en otros, dependientes de la voluntad del poder, fantasmas de s? mismos, muertos en vida. Es en esta l?gica que la comunidad es fortaleza y no significa perdida de autonom?a, ni el individualismo un valor en si mismo. Los protagonistas centrales del destino y la lucha contra el mal no tienen m?s fuerza que la voluntad ante la adversidad, ni dependen de m?sculos que les revientan las camisas, ni de armas que masacran a los otros. Tienen miedo y de ?l aprenden, son peque?os y simples, Hobbits de un pueblo apacible hasta que le destino les cruza la historia o como los aprendices de Hodgwarts que descubren lo que son haciendo. Ambos escuchan a los ancianos y beben de la sabidur?a, ayudados por la premonici?n, los signos y el presagio. No lo saben pero intuyen que el tiempo est? a favor de los peque?os. Probablemente si vivieran hoy se hubieran reunido en Porto Alegre y no en Mordor que queda m?s al norte. Otro mundo es posible (II) La realidad con su habitual terquedad vuelve a las andadas. En Bogot?, Cali y Valledupar se celebr? por tercera vez el "D?a Sin Auto". Seg?n informa el principal peri?dico de mi ciudad "fue un gran taller pedag?gico para demostrar que el carro particular es s?lo un instrumento y no un elemento de desarrollo y crecimiento. Adem?s permiti? fortalecer los h?bitos relacionados con la movilidad segura y evitar los comportamientos que generan accidentalidad en las v?as" Como mucha gente parece estar interesada en otros mundos posibles, una treintena de alcaldes vinieron de Europa, EE.UU y Latinoam?rica para ver la movida. Antes hemos comentado aqu? la experiencia y sus posibilidades. Se trata de retirar temporalmente un elemento de la realidad, v.g. el auto, para permitir consolidar espacios ciudadanos y apropiaciones simb?licas de la ciudad, adem?s de medir la productividad y diversos fen?menos sociales. No cambia el mundo, pero alisa el terreno para otro posible. Las monedas En el peri?dico las noticias sobre Europa y el Euro mientras miro el racimo de monedas que rebosan el plato de bronce que descubr? en un mercado de pulgas en Dortmund. Brillan cuando el tragaluz se enciende, mudos testigos de fugaces despedidas, de andenes que se alejan, de visitas inesperadas y encuentros furtivos, de aeropuertos iguales. Los viejos florines de la primera vez y la Ginebra de Utrech, el Marco que dur? un a?o entero, el d?a inmenso de Estrasburgo, los soles felices de Madrid, la ni?a que me prest? el alma en Barcelona, las cervezas de la Gran Plaza y el secreto de la noche en Bruselas, el cumplea?os de Praga. Las miro y s? que felizmente nunca podr?n comprar nada, nada que no tuviera antes, nada que no hubiera ya dado. Descubro su secreto y constato que el dinero m?s feliz es aquel que no necesitas, el que pierde sentido, el que se convierte en escultura peque?a y adorno, en Dios olvidado, bajo la luz que la ma?ana engulle, all? tan lejos. Las dos caras Hablando de monedas, la vida siempre presenta dos caras, la que mira al piso, seg?n informa el Diario Reforma, queda en el D.F. de M?xico donde la administraci?n excluy? en el plan 2000-20006 las ciclov?as de los planes urbanos e insiste en construir segundos pisos para v?as (ej. en Viaducto y Perif?rico) que s?lo fomentan el uso del autom?vil y marginar el transporte p?blico en una ciudad que se ahoga de contaminaci?n y segregaci?n social. La otra cara de la moneda, la que mira al cielo, en Londres, cuyo Alcalde informa con cierto orgullo que aprobaron el presupuesto para expandir la red de ciclopistas urbana. La verdad hubi?ramos preferido que la moneda cayera al rev?s y si fuera posible parada en el borde. Pero de los reveses tambi?n se aprende y no hay equilibrio posible sin ca?das, como sabe todo aquel que alguna vez aprendi? a manejar una bicicleta. No pasar?n Como alguien que ha vivido casi toda su vida en el distrito de Miraflores, no puedo dejar de reproducir el comentario del Se?or Augusto Elmore en la revista Caretas (edici?n del 14 de marzo). El mismo exime de mayores comentarios pero no de acci?n: "Cuando los municipios no tienen nada mejor que hacer (y parece sobrarles la plata), se dedican a planear obras tan discutibles y verdaderamente inveros?miles como la de construir bajo los parques Central y Kennedy de Miraflores un centro comercial y una playa de estacionamiento gigantes. La principal aberraci?n - aparte de lo grave que significar?a destruir ?reas verdes - es la de pensar en un centro comercial subterr?neo en un distrito en el que basta darse una vuelta para comprobar los centenares de negocios, locales y galer?as comerciales que se encuentran cerrados en la actualidad. Los miraflorinos no tolerar?n este desprop?sito". Se?ora ley El Congreso del Per? promulg? la Ley del trabajo y restableci? la jornada de ocho horas. Muy bien, excelente. Pero entend?monos, la jornada laboral no empieza en la puerta de la f?brica o en la puerta de la oficina, se inicia en la puerta de la casa y a veces dentro. La diferencia entre los tiempos de los m?rtires de Chicago y nuestros d?as, es que ahora la jornada se alarga entre la casa y el trabajo. Que las ciudades crecen, que a falta de buen transporte p?blico y condiciones para los medios a escala humana la jornada se va a la calle, queda despedida, empieza y termina cada d?a en la v?a p?blica. Congraso Cuando cerramos este bolet?n de vida breve e incierta nos informan que el Congreso Nacional pretende revivir la importaci?n de autos usados. El argumento es el mismo de siempre "actividad que genera puestos de trabajo" En Jap?n ser? y algunos pocos en Per?, claro, pero el trabajo de los otros veinticuatro millones de peruanos seguro no se afecta por la productividad de los asm?ticos que faltan a sus labores, por el exceso de congesti?n, por la accidentalidad que sube. No, esa productividad como que no cuenta a veces. Memorias de Jorgito El emperador de Roma visit? el Per? esta semana y los diarios hablan de su seguridad, de la regional y de la imagen de nuestro pa?s de la misma manera que algunas familias se preocupan de la limpieza de casa s?lo cuando vienen visitas. Me parece que la seguridad es un asunto muy importante (clar?simo despu?s del criminal atentado en las inmediaciones de la embajada de EEUU) pero si El Emperador realmente estuviera preocupado por la seguridad del mundo firmar?a el tratado de Kioto de cuyo resultado depende la vida de millones en nuestro planeta y no andar?a por doquier dando tanto discurso soso. Salvo mejor opini?n, por supuesto. Carlos Cordero Vel?squez CICLORED - Centro de Asesor?a y Capacitaci?n para el Transporte y Ambiente Psje. Lavalle 110 Lima 04 Per? tel : (51 1) 4671322 casilla: ccordero@amauta.rcp.net.pe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/private/sustran-discuss/attachments/20020327/ee67b74b/attachment.htm From papon at inrets.fr Wed Mar 27 18:49:23 2002 From: papon at inrets.fr (Francis Papon) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:49:23 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: marzo a escala humana In-Reply-To: <007c01c1d520$d6ff2640$49b601c8@q8v1n7> References: <007c01c1d520$d6ff2640$49b601c8@q8v1n7> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/private/sustran-discuss/attachments/20020327/c9309068/attachment.htm From ccordero at amauta.rcp.net.pe Thu Mar 28 01:55:56 2002 From: ccordero at amauta.rcp.net.pe (Carlos Cordero V.) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:55:56 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: marzo a escala humana References: <007c01c1d520$d6ff2640$49b601c8@q8v1n7> Message-ID: <000701c1d5b0$6f7b5a80$92b601c8@q8v1n7> Re: [sustran] marzo a escala humanaDear Sustraners, First of all, sorry for sending a spanish text, happpens that Sustran List is in one of the mailing groups. For those of you who does not have the pleasure to talk in Spanish, the information regarding Mexico D.F tells that there is no planned investment for cycleways from 2000 till 2006. The governemnt excluded this possibility even the environmental groups strongly opposed this kind of approach to urban transport. At the same time the budget goes to elevated highways in a city with problems to breathe fresh air. Beyond the anecdote what we would like to stress that every year is more difficult to find a place for cyclist in cities since the investement pattern increase the phisical and social segreation in the city. Regarding the Lord of the Rings and The Potter saga, We find similarities between two novels in the way diversity plays a central role on both texts. World where others besides humans are important is what matters. Regards, Carlos Cordero Velasquez ----- Original Message ----- From: Francis Papon To: sustran-discuss@jca.ax.apc.org ; Undisclosed-Recipient:@dai-siti.jca.apc.org;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; Sent: Mi?rcoles, 27 de Marzo de 2002 04:49 a.m. Subject: [sustran] Re: marzo a escala humana ? (At) 18:45 -0500 26/03/02, Carlos Cordero V. ?crivait (wrote) : Hablando de monedas, la vida siempre presenta dos caras, la que mira al piso, seg?n informa el Diario Reforma, queda en el D.F. de M?xico donde la administraci?n excluy? en el plan 2000-20006 las ciclov?as de los planes urbano Well, does it mean we have to wait for 18 millenia until cycling facilities are provided in Mexico city ? I would like to better understand this interesting information. s e insiste en construir segundos pisos para v?as (ej. en Viaducto y Perif?rico) que s?lo fomentan el uso del autom?vil y marginar el transporte p?blico en una ciudad que se ahoga de contaminaci?n y segregaci?n social. La otra cara de la moneda, la que mira al cielo, en Londres, cuyo Alcalde informa con cierto orgullo que aprobaron el presupuesto para expandir la red de ciclopistas urbana. La verdad hubi?ramos preferido que la moneda cayera al rev?s y si fuera posible parada en el borde. Pero de los reveses tambi?n se aprende y no hay equilibrio posible sin ca?das, como sabe todo aquel que alguna vez aprendi? a manejar una bicicleta. -- f???Francis Papon, mailto:francis.papon@inrets.fr tel +33147407270 Ing?nieur en Chef des Ponts et Chauss?es, charg? de recherche ? INRETS/DEST/EEM, 2, av. du G?n?ral Malleret-Joinville, F-94114 Arcueil France http://www.inrets.fr/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/private/sustran-discuss/attachments/20020327/584cdbe0/attachment.htm From p.negron-poblete at UMontreal.CA Fri Mar 29 03:54:31 2002 From: p.negron-poblete at UMontreal.CA (Paula Negron-Poblete) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:54:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [sustran] transit in Mexico city Message-ID: <1017341671.3ca366e7a7bc3@www.courrier.umontreal.ca> hello everyone, it seemed I wasn`t registered on the list, anyway, About the cycleways in Mexico city, as a person who has travelled in public transport in this city, I think it's not the best solution. Unfortunately, distances in Mexico are too important for being travelled by bike. The "solution" of the DF government constructing a second floor is not new. In 1995 (I was a master student) the authorities presented us the project and even at that time we thought it was the worst idea of the year (I don't exagerate!). We have to remember that the poorest people live far away from the center (mainly in the east and south-east sectors of the city) and that they have to travel easily 25 km to their workplace (mainly at the north and center). I think a more organized transport system it's a better solution. Of course, subways are great, but anyone who knows the structural requirements of this infrastructure, and the soil and economic conditions of the city knows it's hard to do. Paula Negron Facult? de l'Am?nagement Universit? de Montr?al From ccordero at amauta.rcp.net.pe Fri Mar 29 09:44:35 2002 From: ccordero at amauta.rcp.net.pe (Carlos Cordero V.) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:44:35 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: transit in Mexico city References: <1017341671.3ca366e7a7bc3@www.courrier.umontreal.ca> Message-ID: <004101c1d6bb$1b8c6a20$57b601c8@q8v1n7> Dear Paula, I think you make an interesting and well informed point. We could also agree that bike ways are not the entire solution for the city, however It could play a role as part of the solution for the cyclist, even if they are few in the city. The fact is that they exist and as any other road user they have access and mobility needs . The distance in the city from home to work is one matter and the distances for social and shopping needs is another one. The other point is how much money and how easily this money goes for big infraestrucutre projects which benefit only people who already have solution for their transport needs. In this context is easy to imagine that along with a more organized transport some space for cyclist is also needed or, in other words, a more organized transport implies also a role for two and three wheleers. Best regards, Carlos . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paula Negron-Poblete" To: Sent: Jueves, 28 de Marzo de 2002 01:54 p.m. Subject: [sustran] transit in Mexico city hello everyone, it seemed I wasn`t registered on the list, anyway, About the cycleways in Mexico city, as a person who has travelled in public transport in this city, I think it's not the best solution. Unfortunately, distances in Mexico are too important for being travelled by bike. The "solution" of the DF government constructing a second floor is not new. In 1995 (I was a master student) the authorities presented us the project and even at that time we thought it was the worst idea of the year (I don't exagerate!). We have to remember that the poorest people live far away from the center (mainly in the east and south-east sectors of the city) and that they have to travel easily 25 km to their workplace (mainly at the north and center). I think a more organized transport system it's a better solution. Of course, subways are great, but anyone who knows the structural requirements of this infrastructure, and the soil and economic conditions of the city knows it's hard to do. Paula Negron Facult? de l'Am?nagement Universit? de Montr?al From p.negron-poblete at UMontreal.CA Sat Mar 30 04:58:25 2002 From: p.negron-poblete at UMontreal.CA (Paula Negron-Poblete) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:58:25 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: transit in Mexico city References: <1017341671.3ca366e7a7bc3@www.courrier.umontreal.ca> <004101c1d6bb$1b8c6a20$57b601c8@q8v1n7> Message-ID: <3CA4C761.62D915DD@umontreal.ca> Hello everyone, It seemed the way I put things out let to know I was against bike, but it's not that at all. It's only that in Mexico city poor people use around 2-3 hours of their time daily to work travel because the public transit system is not integrated (in any definition of the word). Besides that, they use around 10-15% of their income to travel! I really think this is a big priority. In Mexico the authorities doesn't even know the bus routes (microbus) that exist, so it's impossible to plan anything between transport modes. Even if developing bike infrastructures could make short travel easier, it's not an immediate priority. When you don't have many job choices, and the salaries allow you to "survive" instead of "live", then your priority is to have access to jobs at the lowest price. Unfortunately, there is no coordination at all between transport and urbab planning, so it's not rare that people have to travel long distances. Ps. sorry about my english :) -- Paula Negron Facult? de l'Am?nagement Universit? de Montr?al p.negron-poblete@umontreal.ca From bayk at quickweb.com.ph Sun Mar 31 19:09:19 2002 From: bayk at quickweb.com.ph (Ramon) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:09:19 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Curitiba contacts? References: <1017341671.3ca366e7a7bc3@www.courrier.umontreal.ca> <004101c1d6bb$1b8c6a20$57b601c8@q8v1n7> <3CA4C761.62D915DD@umontreal.ca> Message-ID: <003601c1d89c$27272860$0101a8c0@Computer1> One of our NMT advocates is going to Brazil and would like to know if she can contact someone in Brazil, particularly in Curitiba, as she is thinking of visiting that city. Anyone? Ramon From bayk at quickweb.com.ph Sun Mar 31 22:23:45 2002 From: bayk at quickweb.com.ph (Ramon) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 21:23:45 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: transit in Mexico city References: <1017341671.3ca366e7a7bc3@www.courrier.umontreal.ca> <004101c1d6bb$1b8c6a20$57b601c8@q8v1n7> <3CA4C761.62D915DD@umontreal.ca> Message-ID: <00cf01c1d8b7$6887ce70$0101a8c0@Computer1> I am not familiar with the situation in Mexico DF but I would guess that 25 km is the longest trip from home to work? If that's so, then it is a stretch to cycle but certainly not impossible. I cycle 15 km to work daily and it takes me about an hour to do so. Add another 10 km and that's much less than the 2-3 hours of commute by public transport (I'm assuming) that has been reported. I do not generally advocate separate bikeways for cyclists because I think they are unnecessary. What I do advocate is for cyclists to undergo proper training so that: 1) they can cycle safely on roads; and 2) they can enjoy cycling as an activity in itself -- something that will sustain their cycling more than the usually good-intentioned but usually poorly designed and implemented bikeways. Ramon