<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> <title></title> </head> <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"> In the context of countries like India and China, does HSR make sense as an alternative, not to car travel, but to air travel. Is there evidence that HSR can actually replace, say, short haul flights of an hour or two (particularly if getting to and from the airport, and associated security checks in a country like India add a good 3-4 hours overhead to the actual flying time)? If so, it may be worth considering since aviation emissions in India grew at a whopping ~15% p.a. before the recession hit, in comparison with total transport emissions growing at about 5-6%. Particularly since I believe (though don't know enough) that HSR will be easily cost-competitive with air. Will be happy to know your thoughts and for any references that may help. Lee: Request you to also send the TRB paper you referred to. Thanks. Ashok <div class="moz-signature">-- Ashok Sreenivas <a href="http://www.prayaspune.org/peg">Prayas Energy Group</a> and <a href="http://www.parisar.org">Parisar</a> </div> On 9/02/2011 6:54 AM, Sudhir wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:AANLkTik9+Kd4kyvqFTSciXtXZoSY6wwF2dBo2gMHeubK@mail.gmail.com" type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Hi all, I would instead ask can asians afford it ? Many Asian countries are joining the HSR bandwagon after China with Vietnam ( there is good opposition) and India making aggressive plans. Should Asian countries think about HSR for future or rather plan and have a decent heavy rail system which provides safe, comfortable and cheap travel? Do we have any literature for developing countries on economic viability of such projects as such? See <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2011/01/12/high-speed-rail-to-connect-nine-south-china-cities.html">http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2011/01/12/high-speed-rail-to-connect-nine-south-china-cities.html</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/news/330126,rejecting-high-speed-rail-plan.html">http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/news/330126,rejecting-high-speed-rail-plan.html</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/13/vietnam-looks-to-fund-56-billion-high-speed-system-between-hanoi-and-ho-chi-minh-city/">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/13/vietnam-looks-to-fund-56-billion-high-speed-system-between-hanoi-and-ho-chi-minh-city/</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4843889.cms">http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4843889.cms</a> regards Sudhir On 9 February 2011 02:53, Lee Schipper <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:schipper@wri.org"><schipper@wri.org></a> wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">At UC we have looked at the CO2 impacts of HSR in the US. Simple result-- modest savings in those corridors where HSR makes sense (and I'll leave that question there), provided trains are moderately to very full and electricity is not all coal fired. Remember that in the time frame (2030) we expect other modes to be less carbon intensive. On the whole the impact ins SMALL because so little of total travel is in the 100-1000 km range in dense corridors. And while the CO2 savings are reassuring, they do not constitute justification for HSR, rather just a small cobenefit. The paper is in 2011 TRB and will soon be on the ORNL web site where energy-committee sponsored sessions are exhibited. Happy to send the pdf. -----Original Message----- From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org">sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org">mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org</a>] On Behalf Of Walter Hook Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:44 AM To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bruun@seas.upenn.edu">bruun@seas.upenn.edu</a> Cc: UTSG Mailing List (Z UTSG Mailing List -); Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in the wrongdirection thanks for sharing this. getting a lot of questions about the US high speed rail proposals/discussions and don't yet have a firm opinion on them. one or two corridors are a maybe, i would say, assuming a new gas tax or carbon tax could pay for them, but this is far from likely. be good to get a discussion going on this in the US context as well. I am starting to think about combining intercity and commuter longer distance express bus services with downtown bus lanes and HOV lanes, as a possible alternative to high speed rail. If there were HOV/bus lanes throughout NYC and down the NJ Turnpike, its likely you could make it NY to DC on an express bus in a time competitive to rail. These private Chinatown based buses in New York are charging $25 for NY to DC or Boston, or even less, you book on line, and they have high speed internet, etc, compared to well over $100 for the rail service. In the US, once you get off the train, you are unlikely to be anywhere near where you plan to go, particularly once you are outside of NYC. On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:50 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bruun@seas.upenn.edu"><bruun@seas.upenn.edu></a> wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Eric Britton: Thanks for posting this one. I wholeheartedly agree with John Whitelegg that the question of financing versus who will use HSR needs to be addressed, not just in the UK, but anywhere. We have the same issue right now in the Northeast Corridor of the US. Would it be fair to use general revenues </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">to build an even faster system that only business travelers and the wealthy can afford to use? This is already the case with the moderate speed Acela Express having as it does per-unit-distance fares amongst the highest in the world. Indeed, with fares as high as they are and the limited capacity offered, there are few environmental benefits of taking cars off the road, either. Thus, I can't see why the general public should subsidize it any more than they should pay to build an airline and airports. Eric Bruun Quoting eric britton <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eric.britton@ecoplan.org"><eric.britton@ecoplan.org></a>: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">I would like to invite your attention and your reactions to this piece that appears in today's World Streets. Your participation and views are invited for a follow-up piece , as you will see in the </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">last section of the article. UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in the wrong direction < </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going">http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going</a>- very-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/ </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> In the field of transport, no matter how straight-forward the issues may seem to be to the busy citizen, merchant, reporter or policy maker, when it comes to making wise policy it really does take a certain level of time and attention to come to grips with the underlying issues and priorities that shape the outcomes. The big problem encumbering the mobility issues of our new century is that just about everything turns out upon study to be unobligingly complex, interdependent, complicated and time lagged ? no matter how simple it may appear to be on the surface. In the article that follows, the principle author, John Whitelegg, has a go at a lot of the too-easy thinking that is the main currency of the High Speed Rail discussions in places like Britain and the US, where the only experience with these technologies and operations has been that of a time-lagged dream machine. Let?s embrace a bit of complexity here. . . . - - - > Full text here at </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-ve">http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-ve</a> ry-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-very-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/"><http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-very-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/></a> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss">http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss</a> -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss">http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss</a> -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> to join the </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">real </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">countries </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">(the 'Global South'). </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> -- Walter Hook Executive Director Institute for Transportation and Development Policy 9 East 19th Street, 7th Floor New York, NY 10003 1-212-629-8001 <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.itdp.org">www.itdp.org</a> Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide. -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss">http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss</a> -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss">http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss</a> -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> </pre> </blockquote> </body> </html>