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Hi,<br>
<br>
Peter Lutman wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:0633EE40BC8B4C15891EFB1DE4996EEA@PeterPC"
type="cite">
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<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Dear Todd,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">While you have a point about the
various combinations of fuel / motive power, so many of these appear to
'gimmicks' or even actively dangerous that they hardly merit serious
research.</font></div>
</blockquote>
WHEN cars took to the roads for the first time, they had all sorts of
problems with their engines. People used to have to walk down the
street in front of them with a warning flag. Going back a bit, horses
left lovely organiser fertilizer around which now has to be replaced by
petroleum based stuff. Things can work well or not so well in both
directions. <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:0633EE40BC8B4C15891EFB1DE4996EEA@PeterPC"
type="cite">
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"> </font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">There are systems which clearly
lead the way. Arnhem in Holland and Lyons in France use trolleybuses
with car engines driving a generator for the occasional off-wire
diversion. </font></div>
</blockquote>
Also in some parts of Slovakia and the Czech Republic,<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:0633EE40BC8B4C15891EFB1DE4996EEA@PeterPC"
type="cite">
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">San Francisco uses batteries for
the same reason, but given the 21% slopes, I doubt whether they would
get a laden bus up the 1 or 24 routes. </font></div>
</blockquote>
THANKS, didnt know about that.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:0633EE40BC8B4C15891EFB1DE4996EEA@PeterPC"
type="cite">
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">And of course Vancouver which has
renewed its large fleet is another system using batteries as the
Auxiliary Power Unit (APU).</font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">In China Beijing and Guangzhou
(both flat cities) also use battery APUs and, like the others
mentioned, are extremely popular and efficient 'leader' systems.</font></div>
</blockquote>
GOOD<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:0633EE40BC8B4C15891EFB1DE4996EEA@PeterPC"
type="cite">
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">In France, Nancy decided to
install guided trolleybuses (steered in the suburbs) and the guidance
rail system caused major problems. Even after months of testing, the
guided sections of the system are slow and noisy. Caen installed a
wholly guided system, so they could use a pantograph to collect the
600V power and the single guidance rail as the negative earth return.
Even they have had a recent spectacular derailment causing a 2-day
suspension of service. These are further examples of 'gimmicks' just to
be different which can be ignored.</font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Economically, one needs sufficient
demand to justify 6 journeys per hour over most of the system to
justify the power supply infrastructure for trolleybus operation. </font></div>
</blockquote>
SOUNDS good.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:0633EE40BC8B4C15891EFB1DE4996EEA@PeterPC"
type="cite">
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">With APUs short extensions can be
tried without extending the overhead (Guangzhou serves a new suburban
bus interchange successfully in this way with routes 109-112).</font></div>
</blockquote>
OK<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:0633EE40BC8B4C15891EFB1DE4996EEA@PeterPC"
type="cite">
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Visual Noise as Todd describes it,
is not a negative but rather a positive element. The rails and wires
for a tramway show potential users that there is public transport
infrastructure and contribute to its appeal. (According to the LRTA
website, when Liverpool, UK, replaced its tramway system with diesel
buses only 70% of the tram patronage was retained by public transport).
Similarly the overhead wires attract people to trolleybus routes which
in many instances have attracted 16-20% gains in patronage when
replacing diesel buses on the same route. </font></div>
</blockquote>
YES, of course it is positive for the way you describe but just as an
additional benefit. I think rails make the case for trams. Picking a
trolley should be decided "blind".<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:0633EE40BC8B4C15891EFB1DE4996EEA@PeterPC"
type="cite">
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Of course the smooth, silent,
comfortable ride will also be a help in achieving this, so the Chinese
experiments in Shanghai with super-capacitor electric buses which
top-up their charge at every third bus stop may still improve on their
diesel counterparts.</font></div>
</blockquote>
OH, I didnt know that method of using ultracaps was already being used
in China... I just knew about its proposed or theoretical application
in Europe. Thanks.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:0633EE40BC8B4C15891EFB1DE4996EEA@PeterPC"
type="cite">
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Obviously there will be many lower
demand routes which can only economically be served by hydrocarbon
fuelled buses. I am all in favour of clean, low sulphur diesel fuel. </font></div>
</blockquote>
FROM what petroleum source? Oilsands? Iraq? <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:0633EE40BC8B4C15891EFB1DE4996EEA@PeterPC"
type="cite">
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Again, however, the
LPG/CNG/Hydrogen/Hybrid alternatives generally appear 'gimmicky' and in
Swiss and USA cities where there have been spectacular explosions with
some of these alternative fuels they appear to have significant safety
drawbacks. Is it really worth researching modes which fail to achieve
their targeted benefits and are generally avoided by most commercial
bus operators?</font></div>
</blockquote>
CNG buses are used all over for years... how many explosions in that
time? <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:0633EE40BC8B4C15891EFB1DE4996EEA@PeterPC"
type="cite">
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"> </font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Richard M Soberman wrote a report
considering the economic aspects of reintroducing trolley buses in
Toronto (January 2009), and while some of his conclusions may be
arguable (trolleybuses and their infrastructure can last three times as
long as diesel vehicles) there may be useful data there. It might also
be worth considering management attitudes and abilities and their
impact on the economics of different modes with particular reference to
Edmonton's hasty abandonment of its electric system and tearing down
millions of dollars worth of infrastructure.</font></div>
</blockquote>
NYC and Prague also removed their trolley bus systems.... not sure what
reports exist.<br>
<br>
- T<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:0633EE40BC8B4C15891EFB1DE4996EEA@PeterPC"
type="cite">
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Peter Lutman FCILT<br>
<br>
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<blockquote
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" title="edelman@greenidea.eu"
href="mailto:edelman@greenidea.eu">Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory</a>
</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" title="sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org"
href="mailto:sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org">sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org</a>
</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Cc:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" title="simon.bishop@dimts.in"
href="mailto:simon.bishop@dimts.in">Simon Bishop</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="cherry@utk.edu"
href="mailto:cherry@utk.edu">Chris Cherry</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Wednesday, June 17, 2009 8:48 AM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
[sustran] Re: Electric Trolley Buses vs. Diesel</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Hi Chris,<br>
<br>
While I am sure your paper will have have useful results, a comparison
between trolley and Diesel buses only seems a little old fashioned.<br>
<br>
Better, it seems, would be one between those with on- or "off-board"
traction, i.e. trolley buses with different sources of energy AND buses
which carry their own engine, or indeed engine and motors. For the
latter I am speaking of course of the various types of Diesel used in
Diesel-engined buses, but also CNG/Bio-methane buses and
Diesel-electrics with and without ultracapacitors. Or even
methane-electrics, if they exist. There are also trolleys with
supplemental engines to get through non-wired areas, but while becoming
more common (see Skoda transportation) are not a true "hybrid". All of
these are present in greater or lesser numbers in actual daily use,
and, given the relatively short lifespan of buses, appear as new
solutions so often in cities as to be almost untrackable. <br>
<br>
I lived in San Francisco for a long time and found trolley buses vastly
superior in terms of audible noise compared to the Diesels there, but
somewhat inferior in terms of visual noise, i.e. all the wires and the
poles to support them. <br>
<br>
I am also curious about trolley buses and transmission-loss, i.e the
relative energy efficiency of electric-powered buses in regards to the
actual physical location of a power source. This sort of look of course
also applies to buses with on-board power, i.e. is the fuel from
recycled waste cooking oil ? (and how much energy is embedded in that)
or imported across vast distances, e.g. natural gas from Russia to
Western Europe....<br>
<br>
But also it seems that in systems with both trolley buses and Diesels,
etc. the former would have higher occupancy rates as they would tend to
operate more in central areas. This also affects effects.<br>
<br>
- T<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
--------------------------------------------
Todd Edelman
Green Idea Factory
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Germany
Skype: toddedelman
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CAR is over. If you want it.
"Fort mit der Autostadt und was Neues hingebaut!"
- B. Brecht (with slight modification)</pre>
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