<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta content="text/html;charset=windows-1252" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head> <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> Hi Chris, While I am sure your paper will have have useful results, a comparison between trolley and Diesel buses only seems a little old fashioned. Better, it seems, would be one between those with on- or "off-board" traction, i.e. trolley buses with different sources of energy AND buses which carry their own engine, or indeed engine and motors. For the latter I am speaking of course of the various types of Diesel used in Diesel-engined buses, but also CNG/Bio-methane buses and Diesel-electrics with and without ultracapacitors. Or even methane-electrics, if they exist. There are also trolleys with supplemental engines to get through non-wired areas, but while becoming more common (see Skoda transportation) are not a true "hybrid". All of these are present in greater or lesser numbers in actual daily use, and, given the relatively short lifespan of buses, appear as new solutions so often in cities as to be almost untrackable. I lived in San Francisco for a long time and found trolley buses vastly superior in terms of audible noise compared to the Diesels there, but somewhat inferior in terms of visual noise, i.e. all the wires and the poles to support them. I am also curious about trolley buses and transmission-loss, i.e the relative energy efficiency of electric-powered buses in regards to the actual physical location of a power source. This sort of look of course also applies to buses with on-board power, i.e. is the fuel from recycled waste cooking oil ? (and how much energy is embedded in that) or imported across vast distances, e.g. natural gas from Russia to Western Europe.... But also it seems that in systems with both trolley buses and Diesels, etc. the former would have higher occupancy rates as they would tend to operate more in central areas. This also effects affects. (Affects effects?). - T Walter Hook wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:f861555d0906162247n11c3443ete50edcdafa551804@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">i wrote a paper on trolley buses in sao paulo with some data. i think it is on our web site. seems like a reasonable option in many cases. <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Chris Cherry <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:cherry@utk.edu">cherry@utk.edu</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div>I haven’t done or seen much research on the relative effect of trolley buses vis-a-vis diesel buses. One study conducted over a decade ago analyzes the San Francisco Muni bus system, but direct comparisons are difficult because of terrain issues and SF’s use of trolley buses on the steepest routes because of performance characteristics. Moreover, the most obvious problem with direct comparisons is the regional differences of electricity emissions, depending on source. One other issue that is gaining traction is actually measuring exposure (and thus public health) differences (regardless of emission rate) between presumably rural power plant emissions compared to tailpipe emissions. I’m working on a conference paper that will be presented at the PACE summer camp in Kunming in July, looking at this issue. Initial results show that power plant emissions have one order of magnitude lower exposure efficiency (intake fraction) in most Chinese cities compared to tailpipe emissions in the city, so electric vehicles are at an initial 10x advantage regardless of emission rate. The PACE paper is early results and I’ll most likely have a more complete report to share in the fall if you’re interested. Chris Cherry Assistant Professor Civil and Environmental Engineering University of Tennessee-Knoxville 223 Perkins Hall Knoxville, TN 37996-2010 phone: 865-974-7710 mobile: 865-684-8106 fax: 865-974-2669 <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://web.utk.edu/%7Echerry" target="_blank">http://web.utk.edu/~cherry</a> On 6/15/09 9:36 AM, "Sudhir" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://sudhir@cai-asia.org" target="_blank">sudhir@cai-asia.org</a>> wrote: <blockquote>Dear Peter, Thanks for the mail and please note the e-bike analysis from Chris Cherry from China - <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.baq2008.org/system/files/sp5_Cherry+presentation.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.baq2008.org/system/files/sp5_Cherry+presentation.pdf</a> ... its interesting to note about e-bus with battery and wires. i have not seen any research on this. It would be interesting to note the impact of electric bus in China considering the lifecycle analysis... I am cc'ing chris if he can throw some light on the impact of e-buses. the logic of seeing the transport problem from only emissions perspective is not good.. but continuing the discussions on emissions... I would argue that buses and cars emissions are not the same on passenger km basis in Asia as the calculations depend on occupancies and we should never compare bad bus scenario with good car scenario. And we need to take the scenario of " what-if" seriously.. thanks Sudhir 2009/6/15 Peter Lutman <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lutman@globalnet.co.uk" target="_blank">lutman@globalnet.co.uk</a>> <blockquote>Dear Sudhir, I have been following the discussion about Beijing's pro-public transport policies and I notice the comments about diesel-powered buses as almost as polluting per passenger kilometre as private cars. While the first BRT route in Beijing uses diesel buses as do the hundreds of suburban routes, it should be remembered that the central areas of the Chinese Capital are served by a very frequent and intensive Trolleybus network. Hundreds of new Trolleybuses were acquired both before the 2008 Olympics and since - and these vehilces produce neither noise nor air pollution at the point of operation. For the weird people who do not like overhead wires and feel that 'visual pollution' is as damaging to health and happiness as air pollution, the Trolleybuses operate on battery power across the main boulevard and through the central shopping streets, where there are no wires. Peter Lutman FCILT ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. ******************************************************************** <blockquote> ----- Original Message ----- From: Sudhir <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:sudhir@cai-asia.org" target="_blank">mailto:sudhir@cai-asia.org</a>> To: Simon Bishop <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:simon.bishop@dimts.in" target="_blank">mailto:simon.bishop@dimts.in</a>> Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org" target="_blank">sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org</a> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 9:55 AM Subject: [sustran] Re: Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 70, Issue 12 Dear Simon and Others could not stop myself from sending this mail in spite of looming project deadline.... :-) 1. On the question of Beijing - I agree with many of your statements. Good public transport is not BRTS or Metro but one with good NMT integration. For me both public transport and non motorized transport are inclusive and exclusive. But I defer on Beijing initiatives. I see a major change in its focus and i am happy with this. I have never been to Beijing, but i believe that what they are doing is to negate their previous ring-road development strategy. If you look at this link (provided by Sujit- <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.cctv.com/english/special/excl/20090610/110347_1.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.cctv.com/english/special/excl/20090610/110347_1.shtml</a>) it also talks about cycling... More bicycle parking spaces will be established in areas with heavy passenger flow Pedestrian and bicycle service project: special cycle lanes and sidewalk network for pedestrians will be constructed and more bicycle parking spaces will be established in areas with heavy passenger flow. Around 1,000 bicycle rental service stands will be set up, with the number of bicycles available for rent exceeding 50,000 units. I agree that it’s not a major investment and i even don't know as to how many bike lanes they are proposing but yet you can feel the change in the mindset. They have been focusing heavily on TDM from Olympics. We should get more insights from our Chinese colleagues...We have had many sessions of metro vs BRTS in sustran and I am happy with either metro or BRTS as long as they put the money for NMT and public Transport. For me whose master thesis was on flyovers (I made it feasible in 2003 and and i believe it is congested again :-) ) and having worked in infrastructure projects for long, White elephants like metro’s are much better than multi-level interchanges as seen in Delhi. 2. Regarding free public transport - I believe ( my personal opinion) that you don't have to provide free public transport to only attract people but to reward people for traveling in an eco friendly way... ( why should I pay when I am standing, since I did not get any seat, struck in a jam because of the traffic by the people travelling in their own car which was subsidized by government, consuming polluted air while making my effort to clean the air which everyone breaths). It should not be at the risk of providing sub standard services... If people can afford to pay, good... But considering the poor people paying for tickets i would argue for subsidized or free yet comfortable services... It is much better than subsidized fuel. 3. I don't again agree to London example of high emissions buses applicable in any format to Asia. I had good discussions with Mikhail Chester whose analysis is the topic of the month (<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/1748-9326/4/2/024008/" target="_blank">http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/1748-9326/4/2/024008/</a>). If you look at his paper and the media quotes ( there are several from past week)... you can feel as to how story was modified with… We can calculate the numbers from any Asian city and what you would see is that Cars can never be compared on passenger km basis. With two wheelers – there may be possibilities.. but again i am not sure.. 4. Regarding Todd's comment on 25% share in cities, I think in Asia with high probability of private vehicles being two wheelers, 25% of personal automobile share would be okay ( i would be happy) as long as they get 25% of investments and pay all external costs while people using NMT and PT get majority of investment and priority. thanks Sudhir Gota Transport Specialist CAI-Asia Center Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 Tel: +63-2-395-2843 Fax: +63-2-395-2846 <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia" target="_blank">http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia</a> Skype : sudhirgota 2009/6/15 Simon Bishop <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://simon.bishop@dimts.in" target="_blank">simon.bishop@dimts.in</a>> <blockquote>Like Carlos I am skeptical of this announcement. From where I'm sitting in Delhi there is a tendency to see 'public transport', and by that I mean motorized and electrified, through rose tinted glasses as if it is 'the' solution to growing automobile use. A huge amount of emphasis is put on the Metro and now BRT as ways to solve congestion (never mind about all the other externalities). Bicycles and legs are ignored despite holding a huge modal share. I think it was the Indian economist Dasgupta who showed that you could make public transport free in the UK and still only effect a very small shift to it from the car (6%). The fact is that cars are damn convenient and people will use them unless they are literally prized away from doing so. The vast majority of people use public transport in London and NY because they have to, and parking control is the main mechanism. I hope that Beijing's approach will witness parking restraint and pricing as a lynchpin of its policy, otherwise it will be a funding drain and a white elephant. The rose tinted spectacles also ignore the role of cycling as better and faster than the bus over short to medium distances. Why swap a more convenient form of transport for a less convenient one? The only thing that can compete with the car over these distances is the bicycle (and motorcycle, which should also be deterred for safety reasons). In terms of our greatest challenge, global warming I am perturbed. Where you have quality bus systems (with good timetables in the off peak and feeder services) they consume amounts of per capita energy rivaling that of the car. Quoting London again, the average actual CO2 emissions of a bus is 40% that of a car, PM10 emissions are 3 times and SO2 emissions 25 times greater - that's not much of an improvement. In Taipei, taking account of door to door emissions, the Metro actually consumes more energy than a car! This should not be construed as an argument AGAINST public transport, particularly buses, after all the more of us that use them the better, and there will always be a need for those who cannot cycle or walk, but it IS an argument for Beijing to prioritize Travel Demand Management/Walking/Cycling/Land Use Planning as the key policy to follow. </blockquote> <hr align="center" size="3" width="100%"> -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss</a> -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss" target="_blank">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </div> -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss</a> -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss" target="_blank">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). </blockquote> </div> <pre wrap=""> <hr size="4" width="90%"> -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss">http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss</a> -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). </pre> </blockquote> <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Green Idea Factory Urbanstr. 45 D-10967 Berlin Germany Skype: toddedelman Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081 Home/Office: ++49 030 7554 0001 <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:edelman@greenidea.eu">edelman@greenidea.eu</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.greenidea.eu">www.greenidea.eu</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/toddedelman">www.facebook.com/toddedelman</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/edelman">www.flickr.com/photos/edelman</a> CAR is over. If you want it. "Fort mit der Autostadt und was Neues hingebaut!" - B. Brecht (with slight modification)</pre> </body> </html>