Dear All, Interesting discussion. A few observations/questions from my side while answering Paul's questions: <ul><li>Apart from asking the question on geographical focus it is also important to answer the question what purpose this listserv has. If you want to use the list to influence and lobby policies in the south, you will need to have more focus on the south and more participation from the south. If it is more a general discussion list where people exchange views on transport it is quite convenient to have a broad range of discussions on noth and south;</li> <li>I am at present involved in a new inititiative which aims to actively promote sustainable, low carbon transport in developing countries. In order to accomplish this we are targetting both the climate and the transport community. To be effective in reaching these communities you need to make certain that you have both quantity and quality of people on your list. A number of you might be familiar with the specific theme listservs that Transport and Environment is running in Europe on e.g. bunker oil, or on low carbon transport. These google lists have a clear role in discussing coordinate action and they are not open to all and are by invitation only. They are quite active in terms of discussion and debate;</li> <li>It is also important to look at what other lists we have for Asia. We see that in addition to the Sustrain list that there is a Sustainable Urban Mobility Newsletter by CAI-Asia and its SUMA partners, there is the GTZ SUTP newsletter, but these two are both more news letters and less of discussion lists.</li> <li>We are currently considering to set up a new Partnership on Sustainable Low Carbon Transport. The question that will come up is whether we are going to have a new dedicated discussion group/list for this Partnership which is aimed at developing countries in Asia and Latin America. Or should we try to make use of the existing Sustran List? </li></ul>Cornie Huizenga, Convener on Transport and Climate Change <div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:00 AM, <<a href="mailto:sustran-discuss-request@list.jca.apc.org">sustran-discuss-request@list.jca.apc.org</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Send Sustran-discuss mailing list submissions to <a href="mailto:sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org">sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org</a> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit <a href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss" target="_blank">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to <a href="mailto:sustran-discuss-request@list.jca.apc.org">sustran-discuss-request@list.jca.apc.org</a> You can reach the person managing the list at <a href="mailto:sustran-discuss-owner@list.jca.apc.org">sustran-discuss-owner@list.jca.apc.org</a> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Sustran-discuss digest..." ######################################################################## Sustran-discuss Mailing List Digest IMPORTANT NOTE: When replying please do not include the whole digest in your reply - just include the relevant part of the specific message that you are responding to. Many thanks. About this mailing list see: <a href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss" target="_blank">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> ######################################################################## Today's Topics: 1. Re: Regional focus for sustran-discuss: Asia or the global South? (Carlosfelipe Pardo) 2. Re: Regional focus for sustran-discuss: Asia or the global South? (Jonathan E. D. Richmond) 3. Re: Regional focus for sustran-discuss: Asia or the global South? (Zvi Leve) 4. Re: Regional focus for sustran-discuss: Asia or the globalSouth? (Markus Heller) 5. Re: Regional focus for sustran-discuss: Asia or the global South? (Jonathan E. D. Richmond) 6. Re: Regional focus for sustran-discuss: Asia or the globalSouth? (Brendan Finn) 7. Re: Regional focus for sustran-discuss: Asia or the globalSouth? (Sudhir) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 07:41:03 -0500 From: Carlosfelipe Pardo <<a href="mailto:carlosfpardo@gmail.com">carlosfpardo@gmail.com</a>> Subject: [sustran] Re: Regional focus for sustran-discuss: Asia or the global South? To: Paul Barter <<a href="mailto:paulbarter@nus.edu.sg">paulbarter@nus.edu.sg</a>> Cc: <a href="mailto:Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org">Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org</a> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4A2A63DF.20301@gmail.com">4A2A63DF.20301@gmail.com</a>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Paul and everyone, The discussions on geographical focus and participation are very useful for Sustran. I'll comment briefly on both: - Regarding participation, I think it's lacking due to a bit of shyness from members of the group. I've met with many people when we did various training courses in Asia that would have great ideas and examples on these topics that would be extremely useful for places such as sustran. However, many of these people say they are "silent readers" of sustran. I guess what some people feel is that they aren't knowledgeable enough to give some input here, but everyone should take part! I invite all participants to think about a topic that they've always wondered about regarding sustainable transport and post it on sustran to see what other people think. It doesn't matter if we've discussed it already or if it's obvious, because many people will be reading about it for the first time. Also, I think the essence of sustran and these discussion groups is that you can be as informal as you want (though respectful), as long as you're making a contribution! Go ahead, everyone, tell us what you're thinking. - Regarding geographical focus, I think it's very useful to have broadened it to "the Global South". Problems in Asia, Latin America and Africa are pretty similar (they differ mostly in degree, but not in nature). So I'd say we should keep it global, also because many of us have interesting news to give from any of these regions and feel that they are relevant for people in other regions. Otherwise, why would we promote stuff from Bogot? in Jakarta, and it works? I would even go as far as to say that information from "the North" would also be useful here, either as contrast or good or bad example. Actually, one true obstacle between geographical regions is language. Asia is relatively "fluent" in English, while Latin America is mostly a Spanish-speaking country and many people don't speak or understand English. This is why we've also promoted the use of some discussion groups in Spanish (predominantly, sustranlac , sutp-lac and cities-for-mobility , all in yahoogroups) and they seem to work. Many non-English speaking professionals from those regions are most thankful for having developed these discussion spaces. Finally, thanks to Paul for moderating the group and for being part of its creation and development. Best regards, Carlos. Paul Barter wrote: > > Dear sustran-discussers > > There is a suggestion to rethink the geographical focus of this forum, > sustran-discuss. > > *I want your views on which regional focus would be best for > sustran-discuss:* > > A. Should we be clearer about our regional focus in order to keep the > discussions more focused and consistently ?on topic?? > > B. If you said yes to A above, then which of the following do you prefer? > > 1. Keep things as they are: we say in our blurb that our focus is on > developing countries > > 2. Revert to the original focus on ?Asia? (rich and poor alike) > > 3. Other ways to define our regional focus? (I am open to suggestions) > > *WHY BOTHER THINKING ABOUT A CHANGE?* > > * We started with an Asia focus, which we mostly still have, even > though the list description says we focus on the ?global South? > (developing countries). > > So, in practice, 2 probably reflects the discussions here more > accurately than 1. So maybe switching to ?Asia? would be clearer? > High-income Asian cities (Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese, HK and > Singapore) often come up and they certainly feel relevant enough even > if they are not in developing countries. > > * In practice, we don?t really get much material here on Africa, Latin > America, south-western Asia or Eastern Europe anyway. > > * Also in practice, we get a bit TOO much discussion on issues in the > West (Europe, North America, Australia/NZ) and we often need to remind > everyone that there are various other forums better suited to such > material. > > Your views? > > Paul > > Paul A. Barter | Assistant Professor | LKY School of Public Policy > National University of Singapore | 469C Bukit Timah Road | Singapore > 259772 | Tel: +65-6516 3324 | Fax: +65-6778 1020 | > <a href="mailto:paulbarter@nus.edu.sg">paulbarter@nus.edu.sg</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:paulbarter@nus.edu.sg">paulbarter@nus.edu.sg</a>> | > <a href="http://www.spp.nus.edu.sg/Faculty_Paul_Barter.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.spp.nus.edu.sg/Faculty_Paul_Barter.aspx</a> > <a href="http://reinventingtransport.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://reinventingtransport.blogspot.com/</a> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > <a href="http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss</a> > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to <a href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss" target="_blank">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 11:51:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jonathan E. D. Richmond" <<a href="mailto:richmond@alum.mit.edu">richmond@alum.mit.edu</a>> Subject: [sustran] Re: Regional focus for sustran-discuss: Asia or the global South? To: Carlosfelipe Pardo <<a href="mailto:carlosfpardo@gmail.com">carlosfpardo@gmail.com</a>> Cc: <a href="mailto:Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org">Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org</a>, Paul Barter <<a href="mailto:paulbarter@nus.edu.sg">paulbarter@nus.edu.sg</a>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:alpine.DEB.1.10.0906061147290.19116@the-tech.mit.edu">alpine.DEB.1.10.0906061147290.19116@the-tech.mit.edu</a>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" I do not think the issue is fear of lack of knowledge but fear of punishment. In many Asian countries there is a taboo about expressing opinions, an activity often felt to be reserved for politicians and the most senior officers --Jonathan! On Sat, 6 Jun 2009, Carlosfelipe Pardo wrote: > Paul and everyone, > > The discussions on geographical focus and participation are very useful > for Sustran. I'll comment briefly on both: > > - Regarding participation, I think it's lacking due to a bit of shyness > from members of the group. I've met with many people when we did various > training courses in Asia that would have great ideas and examples on > these topics that would be extremely useful for places such as sustran. > However, many of these people say they are "silent readers" of sustran. > I guess what some people feel is that they aren't knowledgeable enough > to give some input here, but everyone should take part! I invite all > participants to think about a topic that they've always wondered about > regarding sustainable transport and post it on sustran to see what other > people think. It doesn't matter if we've discussed it already or if it's > obvious, because many people will be reading about it for the first > time. Also, I think the essence of sustran and these discussion groups > is that you can be as informal as you want (though respectful), as long > as you're making a contribution! Go ahead, everyone, tell us what you're > thinking. > > - Regarding geographical focus, I think it's very useful to have > broadened it to "the Global South". Problems in Asia, Latin America and > Africa are pretty similar (they differ mostly in degree, but not in > nature). So I'd say we should keep it global, also because many of us > have interesting news to give from any of these regions and feel that > they are relevant for people in other regions. Otherwise, why would we > promote stuff from Bogot? in Jakarta, and it works? I would even go as > far as to say that information from "the North" would also be useful > here, either as contrast or good or bad example. > > Actually, one true obstacle between geographical regions is language. > Asia is relatively "fluent" in English, while Latin America is mostly a > Spanish-speaking country and many people don't speak or understand > English. This is why we've also promoted the use of some discussion > groups in Spanish (predominantly, sustranlac , sutp-lac and > cities-for-mobility , all in yahoogroups) and they seem to work. Many > non-English speaking professionals from those regions are most thankful > for having developed these discussion spaces. > > Finally, thanks to Paul for moderating the group and for being part of > its creation and development. > > Best regards, > > Carlos. > > > Paul Barter wrote: >> >> Dear sustran-discussers >> >> There is a suggestion to rethink the geographical focus of this forum, >> sustran-discuss. >> >> *I want your views on which regional focus would be best for >> sustran-discuss:* >> >> A. Should we be clearer about our regional focus in order to keep the >> discussions more focused and consistently ?on topic?? >> >> B. If you said yes to A above, then which of the following do you prefer? >> >> 1. Keep things as they are: we say in our blurb that our focus is on >> developing countries >> >> 2. Revert to the original focus on ?Asia? (rich and poor alike) >> >> 3. Other ways to define our regional focus? (I am open to suggestions) >> >> *WHY BOTHER THINKING ABOUT A CHANGE?* >> >> * We started with an Asia focus, which we mostly still have, even >> though the list description says we focus on the ?global South? >> (developing countries). >> >> So, in practice, 2 probably reflects the discussions here more >> accurately than 1. So maybe switching to ?Asia? would be clearer? >> High-income Asian cities (Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese, HK and >> Singapore) often come up and they certainly feel relevant enough even >> if they are not in developing countries. >> >> * In practice, we don?t really get much material here on Africa, Latin >> America, south-western Asia or Eastern Europe anyway. >> >> * Also in practice, we get a bit TOO much discussion on issues in the >> West (Europe, North America, Australia/NZ) and we often need to remind >> everyone that there are various other forums better suited to such >> material. >> >> Your views? >> >> Paul >> >> Paul A. Barter | Assistant Professor | LKY School of Public Policy >> National University of Singapore | 469C Bukit Timah Road | Singapore >> 259772 | Tel: +65-6516 3324 | Fax: +65-6778 1020 | >> <a href="mailto:paulbarter@nus.edu.sg">paulbarter@nus.edu.sg</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:paulbarter@nus.edu.sg">paulbarter@nus.edu.sg</a>> | >> <a href="http://www.spp.nus.edu.sg/Faculty_Paul_Barter.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.spp.nus.edu.sg/Faculty_Paul_Barter.aspx</a> >> <a href="http://reinventingtransport.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://reinventingtransport.blogspot.com/</a> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> <a href="http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss</a> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to <a href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss" target="_blank">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > <a href="http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss</a> > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to <a href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss" target="_blank">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > ----- Jonathan Richmond +230 707-1134 (Mauritius mobile: most reliable way to reach me) +1 (617) 395-4360 (US phone number rings at home -- call me in Mauritius for the price of a call to the US). e-mail: <a href="mailto:richmond@alum.mit.edu">richmond@alum.mit.edu</a> <a href="http://the-tech.mit.edu/%7Erichmond/" target="_blank">http://the-tech.mit.edu/~richmond/</a> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 12:07:40 -0400 From: Zvi Leve <<a href="mailto:zvi@inro.ca">zvi@inro.ca</a>> Subject: [sustran] Re: Regional focus for sustran-discuss: Asia or the global South? To: "Jonathan E. D. Richmond" <<a href="mailto:richmond@alum.mit.edu">richmond@alum.mit.edu</a>> Cc: Paul Barter <<a href="mailto:paulbarter@nus.edu.sg">paulbarter@nus.edu.sg</a>>, <a href="mailto:Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org">Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org</a> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:eca93d3a0906060907x4fdea5c9r496512a2da19a931@mail.gmail.com">eca93d3a0906060907x4fdea5c9r496512a2da19a931@mail.gmail.com</a>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I do not think that it is exactly "fear of punishment" that inhibits people from certain cultures from participating in such 'public' exchanges - it is more a "fear of losing face". That is, they are worried about how they will be perceived by others.... When interacting with people directly it is easier to understand the social cues, so more people would be inclined to actively participate. Not sure what can be done about this. If one desires, it is not difficult to hide one's true identity from the forum (generic email address, no full name, etc.), but this does not seem to make much of a difference. Anyway.... Zvi 2009/6/6 Jonathan E. D. Richmond <<a href="mailto:richmond@alum.mit.edu">richmond@alum.mit.edu</a>> > > > I do not think the issue is fear of lack of knowledge but fear of > punishment. > > In many Asian countries there is a taboo about expressing opinions, an > activity often felt to be reserved for politicians and the most senior > officers --Jonathan! > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <a href="http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20090606/89ea951a/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank">http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20090606/89ea951a/attachment-0001.html</a> ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 18:20:03 +0200 From: "Markus Heller" <<a href="mailto:info@autofrei-wohnen.de">info@autofrei-wohnen.de</a>> Subject: [sustran] Re: Regional focus for sustran-discuss: Asia or the globalSouth? To: <<a href="mailto:Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org">Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org</a>> Message-ID: <C7B08292CFD74732AD29530CF1E0F54A@user7c0f8571c8> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" a very simple reason is the lack of english skills ... I don`t have the time for too long and too complicated eMails, so simple english is a help (for me, at least) - and I agree completely with Carlos (global south focus) Markus (Berlin) ----- Original Message ----- From: Zvi Leve To: Jonathan E. D. Richmond Cc: Paul Barter ; <a href="mailto:Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org">Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org</a> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 6:07 PM Subject: [sustran] Re: Regional focus for sustran-discuss: Asia or the globalSouth? I do not think that it is exactly "fear of punishment" that inhibits people from certain cultures from participating in such 'public' exchanges - it is more a "fear of losing face". That is, they are worried about how they will be perceived by others.... When interacting with people directly it is easier to understand the social cues, so more people would be inclined to actively participate. Not sure what can be done about this. If one desires, it is not difficult to hide one's true identity from the forum (generic email address, no full name, etc.), but this does not seem to make much of a difference. Anyway.... Zvi 2009/6/6 Jonathan E. D. Richmond <<a href="mailto:richmond@alum.mit.edu">richmond@alum.mit.edu</a>> I do not think the issue is fear of lack of knowledge but fear of punishment. In many Asian countries there is a taboo about expressing opinions, an activity often felt to be reserved for politicians and the most senior officers --Jonathan! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit <a href="http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss</a> -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to <a href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss" target="_blank">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <a href="http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20090606/e6a749af/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank">http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20090606/e6a749af/attachment-0001.html</a> ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 12:21:55 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jonathan E. D. Richmond" <<a href="mailto:richmond@alum.mit.edu">richmond@alum.mit.edu</a>> Subject: [sustran] Re: Regional focus for sustran-discuss: Asia or the global South? To: Zvi Leve <<a href="mailto:zvi@inro.ca">zvi@inro.ca</a>> Cc: Paul Barter <<a href="mailto:paulbarter@nus.edu.sg">paulbarter@nus.edu.sg</a>>, <a href="mailto:Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org">Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org</a> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:alpine.DEB.1.10.0906061217180.20335@the-tech.mit.edu">alpine.DEB.1.10.0906061217180.20335@the-tech.mit.edu</a>> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Even with face to face contact, junior employees will often not express opinions in front of their bosses. And punishments, ranging from humiliation to loss of promotion and status are very real. In Thailand, for example, the situation is best understood in terms of the concept of "greng jai," the requirement to make your boss look good -- part of which involves demonstrating that you are inferior to your boss and have little of value to contribute compared to him or her. Having good ideas or being creqtive can be seen as an insult to your boss. Jonathan! On Sat, 6 Jun 2009, Zvi Leve wrote: > I do not think that it is exactly "fear of punishment" that inhibits > people from certain cultures from participating in such 'public' > exchanges - it is more a "fear of losing face". That is, they are worried > about how they will be perceived by others.... When interacting with > people directly it is easier to understand the social cues, so more > people would be inclined to actively participate. > > Not sure what can be done about this. If one desires, it is not difficult > to hide one's true identity from the forum (generic email address, no > full name, etc.), but this does not seem to make much of a difference. > > Anyway.... > > Zvi > > > > 2009/6/6 Jonathan E. D. Richmond <<a href="mailto:richmond@alum.mit.edu">richmond@alum.mit.edu</a>> > > > I do not think the issue is fear of lack of knowledge but > fear of punishment. > > In many Asian countries there is a taboo about expressing > opinions, an activity often felt to be reserved for > politicians and the most senior officers --Jonathan! > > > > > > ----- Jonathan Richmond +230 707-1134 (Mauritius mobile: most reliable way to reach me) +1 (617) 395-4360 (US phone number rings at home -- call me in Mauritius for the price of a call to the US). e-mail: <a href="mailto:richmond@alum.mit.edu">richmond@alum.mit.edu</a> <a href="http://the-tech.mit.edu/%7Erichmond/" target="_blank">http://the-tech.mit.edu/~richmond/</a> ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:36:22 +0100 From: "Brendan Finn" <<a href="mailto:etts@indigo.ie">etts@indigo.ie</a>> Subject: [sustran] Re: Regional focus for sustran-discuss: Asia or the globalSouth? To: "Jonathan E. D. Richmond" <<a href="mailto:richmond@alum.mit.edu">richmond@alum.mit.edu</a>>, "Zvi Leve" <<a href="mailto:zvi@inro.ca">zvi@inro.ca</a>> Cc: <a href="mailto:Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org">Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org</a>, Paul Barter <<a href="mailto:paulbarter@nus.edu.sg">paulbarter@nus.edu.sg</a>> Message-ID: <DF5DCD5B26634769BD427E5A54DBEC97@MicroPro271007> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Zvi, Jonathon, I agree with the points you both make, although these are applicable more in the Asian culture and rather less in the American culture. In addition, I would suggest another aspect - employer and client confidentiality. Those in the best position to highlight new issues and to explain decision-taking, apparent paradoxes, or to illustrate points by specific examples can often only do so by sharing information that is not in the public domain. In many cases this would mean breaking confidences of our organisation, employer, client or network. Perhaps this is just another aspect of fear of punishment or fear of loss of face. However, I think for many it is just contrary to our training, where we temper opportunities to make ourselves look knowledgeable (at least in our own eyes!) against what we consider to be our responsibilities. It is ironic that on matters about which we know least we can be free, contentious and indulge in hyperbole; whereas on the matters we know most we are cautious, inhibited and often silent. That said, I agree with Paul and others that the Sustran community should be more participative, and that we would all get more out of it by contribution, dialogue and respectful debate than when we are just silent readers. With best wishes, Brendan. _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Brendan Finn e-mail : <a href="mailto:etts@indigo.ie">etts@indigo.ie</a> tel : +353.87.2530286 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan E. D. Richmond" <<a href="mailto:richmond@alum.mit.edu">richmond@alum.mit.edu</a>> To: "Zvi Leve" <<a href="mailto:zvi@inro.ca">zvi@inro.ca</a>> Cc: "Paul Barter" <<a href="mailto:paulbarter@nus.edu.sg">paulbarter@nus.edu.sg</a>>; <<a href="mailto:Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org">Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org</a>> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 5:21 PM Subject: [sustran] Re: Regional focus for sustran-discuss: Asia or the globalSouth? > > > Even with face to face contact, junior employees will often not express > opinions in front of their bosses. > > And punishments, ranging from humiliation to loss of promotion and status > are very real. > > In Thailand, for example, the situation is best understood in terms of the > concept of "greng jai," the requirement to make your boss look good -- > part of which involves demonstrating that you are inferior to your boss > and have little of value to contribute compared to him or her. > Having good ideas or being creqtive can be seen as an insult to > your boss. Jonathan! > > > > On Sat, 6 Jun 2009, Zvi Leve wrote: > >> I do not think that it is exactly "fear of punishment" that inhibits >> people from certain cultures from participating in such 'public' >> exchanges - it is more a "fear of losing face". That is, they are worried >> about how they will be perceived by others.... When interacting with >> people directly it is easier to understand the social cues, so more >> people would be inclined to actively participate. >> >> Not sure what can be done about this. If one desires, it is not difficult >> to hide one's true identity from the forum (generic email address, no >> full name, etc.), but this does not seem to make much of a difference. >> >> Anyway.... >> >> Zvi >> >> >> >> 2009/6/6 Jonathan E. D. Richmond <<a href="mailto:richmond@alum.mit.edu">richmond@alum.mit.edu</a>> >> >> >> I do not think the issue is fear of lack of knowledge but >> fear of punishment. >> >> In many Asian countries there is a taboo about expressing >> opinions, an activity often felt to be reserved for >> politicians and the most senior officers --Jonathan! >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <a href="http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20090606/c9b9b3db/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank">http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20090606/c9b9b3db/attachment-0001.html</a> ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 07:13:20 +0800 From: Sudhir <<a href="mailto:sudhir@cai-asia.org">sudhir@cai-asia.org</a>> Subject: [sustran] Re: Regional focus for sustran-discuss: Asia or the globalSouth? To: Brendan Finn <<a href="mailto:etts@indigo.ie">etts@indigo.ie</a>> Cc: Paul Barter <<a href="mailto:paulbarter@nus.edu.sg">paulbarter@nus.edu.sg</a>>, <a href="mailto:Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org">Sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org</a> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:ef31aa130906061613w115fc565p44c36a66ff5df262@mail.gmail.com">ef31aa130906061613w115fc565p44c36a66ff5df262@mail.gmail.com</a>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all, I think internet has provided that freedom of expression that face to face communication cannot ( fear of punishment, shyness, english etc...). How many of us have met face to face? agree with Carlos on geographical focus - global south is the better option.. regarding members, i think we need to advertise more as i think we don't have many policymakers and students... from my personal view, students are the key and i guess they don't know about sustran. Majority of universities are still focusing on 'traditional' concepts and '"solutions".. and it would be great if we can bring them in... cheers Sudhir 2009/6/7 Brendan Finn <<a href="mailto:etts@indigo.ie">etts@indigo.ie</a>> > Zvi, Jonathon, > > I agree with the points you both make, although these are applicable more > in the Asian culture and rather less in the American culture. > > In addition, I would suggest another aspect - employer and client > confidentiality. Those in the best position to highlight new issues and > to explain decision-taking, apparent paradoxes, or to illustrate points by > specific examples can often only do so by sharing information that is not in > the public domain. In many cases this would mean breaking confidences of our > organisation, employer, client or network. Perhaps this is just another > aspect of fear of punishment or fear of loss of face. However, I think for > many it is just contrary to our training, where we temper opportunities to > make ourselves look knowledgeable (at least in our own eyes!) against what > we consider to be our responsibilities. > > It is ironic that on matters about which we know least we can be free, > contentious and indulge in hyperbole; whereas on the matters we know most we > are cautious, inhibited and often silent. > > That said, I agree with Paul and others that the Sustran community should > be more participative, and that we would all get more out of it > by contribution, dialogue and respectful debate than when we are just silent > readers. > > With best wishes, > > > Brendan. > > _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > -- Sudhir Gota Transport Specialist CAI-Asia Center Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City Metro Manila, Philippines 1605 Tel: +63-2-395-2843 Fax: +63-2-395-2846 <a href="http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia" target="_blank">http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia</a> Skype : sudhirgota -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <a href="http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20090607/90186ce3/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank">http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20090607/90186ce3/attachment-0001.html</a> ------------------------------ ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). End of Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 70, Issue 5 ********************************************** </blockquote></div> -- Cornie Huizenga Vice-Chair, Board of Trustees CAI-Asia Center www://<a href="http://cleanairnet.org/caiasia">cleanairnet.org/caiasia</a> <a href="mailto:cornie.huizenga@cai-asia.org">cornie.huizenga@cai-asia.org</a>