<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head> <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> Carlos, Creating a sustainable mobility plan requires cooperation of all actors -- and having them plan or finance it beyond their share in it just gives them the opportunity to greenwash their contribution. But I am not naive and realise that the most important part of my proposal - proposing this solution only for carshare - will not be accepted on their part. Their vision is based on sales to individuals in cities. The private urban car industry is inherently and fundamentally unsustainable. Does anyone disagree? In the medium- to long-term I would argue that only carfree cities, rather than simply carshare cities or carfree neighbourhoods, are sustainable. Any car still takes up too much space and even if tamed in regards to safety and emissions still creates too much road chaos. But key is that a lot of the tasks assigned to carshare cars such as "big shopping" or carrying big things across town, etc can eventually be solved by de-centralisation and localisation and also by automated urban cargo networks.  I left the carfree part out of my letter from the "People of Earth" because it seems to go a little beyond the New Mobility agenda and the scope of these lists. - T Until Carlosfelipe Pardo wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:4942D44A.6090008@gmail.com" type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Maybe the "letter" from the People of the Earth could state that we (who would we be?) are open to cooperate, rather than say that they should do all the work of the overall sustainable mobility plan... but that they should help finance it (at least partially! hehe). Carlos. Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Ramon Fernan <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bayk_aksyon@yahoo.com">bayk_aksyon@yahoo.com</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bayk_aksyon@yahoo.com"><mailto:bayk_aksyon@yahoo.com></a>> wrote: Don't know if this topic has been discussed here but what do people think of Shai Agassi's Better Place business model for promoting electric cars? More junk on the road? Not even worth considering? Better Place has a website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.betterplace.com">www.betterplace.com</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.betterplace.com"><http://www.betterplace.com></a> and Agassi has a blog to promote his ideas: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://shaiagassi.typepad.com/">http://shaiagassi.typepad.com/</a>. Thomas Friedman of the NYT (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/opinion/27friedman.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/opinion/27friedman.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/opinion/27friedman.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin"><http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/opinion/27friedman.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin></a>) has lately been promoting his plan to rid the world of dependence on (Arab) oil. (Agassi is Israeli). *** In response, Peter Smith wrote: I have a view! :) i don't like it. <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://bikeblogs.org/sf/2008/12/02/just-so-were-not-confused/">http://bikeblogs.org/sf/2008/12/02/just-so-were-not-confused/</a> saving cars is bad, and i'm also thinking of the Jevons Paradox, named after William Stanley Jevons: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox</a> less energy on the micro-scale, but much more energy on the macro scale. boo. *** To which I add, Hi all, Peter is right, and the one extra thought I had is that - to paraphrase someone whose name is presently elusive - if you keep on repeating the word "sustainable" over and over people will start believing it. George Orwell would be impressed or depressed, depending on how you look at things. The future these folks propose will seem to have just as much congestion, obesity and social isolation in places which are automobile-centred now and of course more in the rest of the world which is still not automobilised. Deaths of vulnerable road users per capita might go down in automobilised countries (because the cars are lighter than current ones) but will go up everywhere else. They talk about renewable energy grids but it will be years before these exist en masse, and as we know current plug-in hybrids take advantage of a network not designed for vehicle use (in regards to taxation), and which in many places is powered by coal. If I may be so bold: "Dear Better Place, We are sorry to report that your project in its current form will not be permitted to carry the New Mobility* label. However, if you propose urban vehicles only for use for carshare, paying a individual motorised transport tax on distance travelled, and with active and passive safety features to protect vulnerable road users as well as speed limiters, in addition to further measures which will define this solution as a minority-partner in a sustainable mobility plan focused strategically on reducing the need for mobility, and tactically on construction of dense housing, de-centralised services, shopping and entertainment plus walking, cycling and mass public transport vehicles, we may reconsider your proposal. Kind regards, People of Earth" * This label does not exist; I am just trying to make a point and would not be the one to authorise its use. For more info please see <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.newmobility.org">www.newmobility.org</a> - T p.s. I am half-Israeli -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Green Idea Factory Urbanstr. 45 D-10967 Berlin Germany Skype: toddedelman Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081 Home/Office: ++49 030 7554 0001 <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:edelman@greenidea.eu">edelman@greenidea.eu</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.greenidea.eu">www.greenidea.eu</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/edelman">www.flickr.com/photos/edelman</a> Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.worldcarfree.net">www.worldcarfree.net</a> CAR is over. If you want it. "Fort mit der Autostadt und was Neues hingebaut!" - B. Brecht (with slight modification) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">-------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). </pre> </blockquote> <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Green Idea Factory Urbanstr. 45 D-10967 Berlin Germany Skype: toddedelman Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081 Home/Office: ++49 030 7554 0001 <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:edelman@greenidea.eu">edelman@greenidea.eu</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.greenidea.eu">www.greenidea.eu</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/edelman">www.flickr.com/photos/edelman</a> Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.worldcarfree.net">www.worldcarfree.net</a> CAR is over. If you want it. "Fort mit der Autostadt und was Neues hingebaut!" - B. Brecht (with slight modification)</pre> </body> </html>