<div>Lee I agree to what you write. I think, however, that the 'co-benefits' don't materialize either if the urban transport discussion is boiled down to a bus system discussion or on capacity expansion of public transport. Other mechanisms are needed supporting sustainable urban transport more broadly. Cap and trade and CDM like mechanisms will not lead to action in the transport sector, because it is too expensive relative to other sectors to cut CO2 emissions there. Best Andreas <div>Dr. Andreas Kopp Lead Economist World Bank Group Department for Energy, Transport and Water 1818 H Street NW Washington, D.C. 20433 USA ph. +1 202 473 6031 <div> </div>-----"Lee Schipper" <schipper@wri.org> wrote: ----- <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid #000000; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">To: <NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com>, <sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org> From: "Lee Schipper" <schipper@wri.org> Date: 11/23/2008 12:24PM cc: <Cities-for-Mobility@yahoogroups.com>, "Cornie Huizenga" <cornie.huizenga@cai-asia.org>, <bert.fabian@cai-asia.org>, "Holger Dalkmann" <h.dalkmann@gmx.de>, "Sergio Sanchez" <ssanchez@cleanairinstitute.org>, <jleather@adb.org>, <akopp@worldbank.org> Subject: RE: [NewMobilityCafe] CDM Projects (Clean Development Mechanism) - public transport   <div class="Section1"> Why would you want public transport in CDM, when the values/costs/benefits of time saved, lower air pollution, less noise, greater rider security and safety etc DWARF the carbon values…and when adding a CDM component slows the entire improvement of transport down immensely while all of us don our green visors and count carbon. <o:p></o:p> <o:p>  </o:p> Counting that carbon is VERY hard ( <a href="http://embarq.wri.org/en/Article.140.aspx">http://embarq.wri.org/en/Article.140.aspx </a> examined some of these issues including a paper we wrote for the 2007 ECEEE conference on measuring CO2 emissions CHANGES from transport projects). <o:p></o:p> <o:p>  </o:p> I’m VERY worried about CO2 in transport, but I’m convinced CDM and like process that link to “carbon finance“ either slow the process down (see GEF grant progress), put too much focus on reducing CO2 rather than improving transport (they are not the same), filter our vision to projects whose carbon savings are relatively to measure (hybrid buses, proven but expensive) or ones with tiny and often questionable savings (like small additions of biodiesel to bus fuel). <o:p></o:p> I’m not against rewarding carbon saving or efforts at mass transit, but the proportions of $ for carbon are tiny compared to the overall pot of time, transport, urban development.  Can Mexico City honestly say that their Metrobus was “additional”, ie., would not have been undertaken to save $$ millions in saved time, accidents, local air pollution, reduced numbers of cars on the road (according to a nice report by the Instituto Nacional de Ecologia published in 2006) for a few hundred thousand $ of carbon finance funds arranged after the fact? <o:p></o:p> <o:p>  </o:p> Juerg Gruetter has made a good case for CDM and carbon financing of BRT projects, but in the end these only affect a small amount of CO2 (in buses) and, while they draw a modest number of riders from cars, still leave the rest of cars untouched. My fear is that CDM draws interest to those easily bankable projects and away from the much greater challenge, use of cars and other light duty vehicles. <o:p></o:p> <o:p>  </o:p> In four Latin American cities (Mexico City region, Bogota, S Paulo, and Santiago) cars and taxis appear to account for 65-70% of all direct GHG emissions from road traffic (including trucks).  Without policies and projects that reduce that traffic (and its growth) SIGNIFICANTLY, the savings from ‘urban transport projects” in general will be small.  Since most fo the carbon is in cars, most of the change has to come from cars. How do you measure that and sell the results against a rapidly growing baseline? And cars and trucks are not “cdm-able”, i.e., owned by the kinds of entities that can be part of CDM directly. Of course $$ could be given to cities who undertook strong transport measures, but again, why would they not undertake those measures anyway? And why would national governments not want to promulgate fuel economy standards to save oil? <o:p></o:p> <o:p>  </o:p> In short, is this really about $$ or political will? <o:p></o:p> <o:p>  </o:p> Finally, consider the following very rough numbers that illustrate the scale of the problem. <o:p></o:p> World GDP 60 Trillion (until the crash) <o:p></o:p> World gross investment $10 TN (remember buildings burn energy leading to CO2 emissions, too) <o:p></o:p> Investments in transport infrastructure (road, rail, port, air, facilities like transfer stations) – my guess $1-2 TN <o:p></o:p> World purchase of private household transport equipment $1TN (40 mn cars $25 000/car) <o:p></o:p> World purchase of road fuels (roughly 2 TN) <o:p></o:p> <o:p>  </o:p> Are we really talking about  putting hundreds of billions YEARLY into doing what is the right thing even if CO2 was not a problem. Conversely, if we had a CO2 free fuel tomorrow, we’d still have a traffic mess worldwide. So maybe focusing on transport and Co2, rather than more broadly clean development – and understanding why developing cities’ traffic is such a mess even before CO2 is considered – is higher on the agenda. If there are going to be N-S transfers, aka Overseas Development Assistance, is CO2 “abatement” the most cost effective way of using money for development? <o:p></o:p> <o:p>  </o:p> Realistically, how can CDM have more than a demonstration effect? If so, then let’s forget CDM as such and move to  a wider effort to <o:p></o:p> Demonstrate various regional policy and technical solutions, investing (for once) in enough competence building and data gathering so localities can monitor traffic, emissions, fuel, safety etc better. Our EMBARQ project in se Asia (PSUTA) discovered that authorities’ ability to monitor even the most elementary problems of transport was pretty meager --http://embarq.wri.org/en/ProjectCitiesDetail.aspx?id=9 <o:p></o:p> <o:p>  </o:p> Some of these issues will be discussed at the upcoming COP (Dec 5). Maybe Climate negotiations are not the right place to decide how to use the streets? There will also be a spirited discussion during Transportation Research Board Annual Meeting in Washington DC, both during the meeting itself and at a special side event Friday 16 January.  This note is copied to several of those involved in these discussions. Watch this space! <o:p></o:p> <o:p>  </o:p> <div> <o:p>  </o:p> <o:p>  </o:p> <o:p>  </o:p> <o:p>  </o:p> <o:p>  </o:p> Lee Schipper, Ph.D <o:p></o:p> Project Scientist <o:p></o:p> Global Metropolitan Studies <o:p></o:p> <o:p>  </o:p> 2614 Dwight Way 2 nd floor University of California Berkeley <o:p></o:p> CA 94720-1782 USA <o:p></o:p> <o:p>  </o:p> TEL +1 510 642 6889 <o:p></o:p> FAX +1 510 642 6061 CELL +1 202 262 7476  <o:p></o:p> skype : mrmeter <o:p></o:p> <a href="http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/">http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/ </a><o:p></o:p> <o:p>  </o:p> Senior Research Engineer <o:p></o:p> Precourt Institute for Energy Efficiency <o:p></o:p> Stanford University <o:p></o:p>   <o:p></o:p> Senior Analyst Emeritus <o:p></o:p> EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport <o:p></o:p> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <o:p></o:p> </div> <o:p>  </o:p> <div> <div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: #b5c4df -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"> From: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Britton Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 2:37 AM To: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Cc: Cities-for-Mobility@yahoogroups.com Subject: [NewMobilityCafe] CDM Projects (Clean Development Mechanism) - public transport <o:p></o:p> </div> </div> <o:p>  </o:p> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg"> <div id="ygrp-msg"> <div id="ygrp-text"> <div> That’s a good question Roland. I just tried Knoogling it and came up with some interesting responses. You might wish to give it a try at http://knoogle.net . (And if you have suggestions for us as to sources or other details to improve  its operation ,please do . . . Eric Britton <o:p></o:p>   <o:p></o:p> <div> <div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: #b5c4df -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 0in;"> On Behalf Of Roland Sapsford Sent: Sunday, 23 November 2008 00:11 <o:p></o:p> </div> </div>   <o:p></o:p> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg"> <div id="ygrp-msg"> <div id="ygrp-text"> Hi Is anyone aware of any work underway through the CDM, or in negotiations around its successors, to make it easier for transport projects to be included.  As far as I know, the only public transport project so far granted CDM credits is the TransMilenio busway in Bogota.  The main barrier is that transport projects usually involve policy and planning changes as well as projects, and the methodological tests for additionality are hard to meet. Curiously yours Roland Sapsford <o:p></o:p> Roland Sapsford <o:p></o:p>Sustainability Solutions Consulting <o:p></o:p>  <o:p></o:p>Climate Change, Cities, Energy, Transport <o:p></o:p>  <o:p></o:p>  <o:p></o:p>PO Box 11-708, Manners St, Wellington 6142, New Zealand <o:p></o:p> <div style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color windowtext; border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding: 0in;">+64-4-9341106(w); +64-4-3851105(h); +64-21-651105(m) <o:p></o:p></div>   <o:p></o:p> Dr. Rainer Rothfuss wrote: <o:p></o:p> <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"> <div id="ygrp-text"> <div> <h1>A trav�s del instrumento CDM se pueden financiar proyectos para reducir emisiones de CO2 - tambi�n en el �rea del transporte. <o:p></o:p></h1> M�s informaciones: <a href="http://www.cdm">http://www.cdm </a>-cooperation.de/7.0.html <o:p></o:p> Para saber m�s del los proyectos ya implementados en los diferentes pa�ses de Am�rica Latina hay que registrarse como usuario (gratuito). <o:p></o:p> <h1>Clean Development Mechanism <o:p></o:p></h1> </div> The Clean Development Mechanism (CDM) is a project-based mechanism, laid down in the Kyoto Protocol within the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change ( <a href="http://www.unfccc.int/" target="_blank" title="Opens external link in new window">UNFCCC </a>) in 1997. On the one hand, it serves as a tool for the achievement of companies? or state?s emission targets under minimum costs. On the other hand, it provides an economic incentive for investments in technologies aiming at climate protection. <o:p></o:p> Best regards, <o:p></o:p> Rainer Rothfuss ----------------------- Join the Cities for Mobility online forum: <a href="http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Cities-for-Mobility" target="_blank">http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Cities-for-Mobility </a> Cities-for-Mobility-subscribe@yahoogroups.com <o:p></o:p> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> __._,_.___ <o:p></o:p> <div id="ygrp-actbar"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewMobilityCafe/message/3172;_ylc=X3oDMTM0NWJjZ3M5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwODg3ODkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjA1OTU0BG1zZ0lkAzMxNzIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMjI3NDU3NTA2BHRwY0lkAzMxNzI-">Messages in this topic </a>( 1 ) <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewMobilityCafe/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwdm5kcmJkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwODg3ODkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjA1OTU0BG1zZ0lkAzMxNzIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMjI3NDU3NTA2?act=reply&messageNum=3172">Reply (via web post) </a>| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewMobilityCafe/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlN2JuYzc2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwODg3ODkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjA1OTU0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIyNzQ1NzUwNg--">Start a new topic </a><o:p></o:p> </div> <div id="ygrp-vitnav"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewMobilityCafe/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbmk4b2hnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwODg3ODkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjA1OTU0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTIyNzQ1NzUwNg--">Messages </a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewMobilityCafe/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJmcDI4ZmVhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwODg3ODkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjA1OTU0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2xpbmtzBHN0aW1lAzEyMjc0NTc1MDY-">Links </a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewMobilityCafe/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJjZmZmcXA5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwODg3ODkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjA1OTU0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2RiBHN0aW1lAzEyMjc0NTc1MDY-">Database </a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewMobilityCafe/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJmdDVqcjQ2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwODg3ODkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjA1OTU0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3BvbGxzBHN0aW1lAzEyMjc0NTc1MDY-">Polls </a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewMobilityCafe/calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNTVwcDM2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwODg3ODkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjA1OTU0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2NhbARzdGltZQMxMjI3NDU3NTA2">Calendar </a> <o:p></o:p> </div> <div id="ygrp-grft"> Check in here via the homepage at <a href="http://www.newmobility.org">http://www.newmobility.org </a>   To post message to group: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com Please think twice before posting to the group as a whole (It might be that your note is best sent to one person?) <o:p></o:p> </div> <div id="ygrp-mkp"> <div id="hd"> MARKETPLACE <o:p></o:p> </div> <div id="ads"> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"> <hr style="" size="1" width="100%" align="center" noshade="noshade"> </div> <a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13re1pkhs/M=493064.12016295.13271503.10835568/D=groups/S=1707205954:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1227464707/L=/B=..DsB0LaX9A-/J=1227457507144966/A=5530388/R=0/SIG=11nuutlas/*http:/explore.yahoo.com/groups/kraftmealsmadesimple/">From kitchen basics to easy recipes - join the Group from Kraft Foods </a><o:p></o:p> </div> </div> </div> <div id="ygrp-ft"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbm04bGJlBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzEwODg3ODkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjA1OTU0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjI3NDU3NTA3"><img id="_x0000_i1026" src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" alt="Yahoo! Groups" width="106" border="0" height="15"></a> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewMobilityCafe/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNzJibms0BF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzEwODg3ODkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjA1OTU0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzEyMjc0NTc1MDc-">Change settings via the Web </a> (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:NewMobilityCafe-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email%20Delivery:%20Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest </a> | <a href="mailto:NewMobilityCafe-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional">Switch format to Traditional </a> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewMobilityCafe;_ylc=X3oDMTJkb2tibjhtBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzEwODg3ODkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjA1OTU0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMjI3NDU3NTA3">Visit Your Group </a>| <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use </a>| <a href="mailto:NewMobilityCafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=">Unsubscribe </a><o:p></o:p> </div> </div> <div style="margin-bottom: 18.75pt; float: right;" id="ygrp-sponsor"> <div id="ygrp-vital"> <div id="vithd"> Recent Activity <o:p></o:p> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewMobilityCafe;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZmdobjZlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwODg3ODkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjA1OTU0BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTIyNzQ1NzUwNg--">Visit Your Group </a><o:p></o:p> </div> <div id="nc"> <div> <div id="hd1"> Yahoo! Finance <o:p></o:p> </div> <a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13ohpgsqn/M=493064.12016257.12445664.8674578/D=groups/S=1707205954:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1227464707/L=/B=_ODsB0LaX9A-/J=1227457507144966/A=4507179/R=0/SIG=12de4rskk/*http:/us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=50284/*http:/finance.yahoo.com/personal-finance">It's Now Personal </a><o:p></o:p> Guides, news, <o:p></o:p> advice & more. <o:p></o:p> </div> <div> <div id="hd1"> Find helpful tips <o:p></o:p> </div> <a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13o79b53e/M=493064.12016258.12582637.8674578/D=groups/S=1707205954:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1227464707/L=/B=_eDsB0LaX9A-/J=1227457507144966/A=5191954/R=0/SIG=112mhte3e/*http:/www.ygroupsblog.com/blog/">for Moderators </a><o:p></o:p> on the Yahoo! <o:p></o:p> Groups team blog. <o:p></o:p> </div> <div> <div id="hd1"> Dog Fanatics <o:p></o:p> </div> <a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13oibmem4/M=493064.12016263.12445670.8674578/D=groups/S=1707205954:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1227464707/L=/B=_uDsB0LaX9A-/J=1227457507144966/A=4836045/R=0/SIG=11o19ppl5/*http:/advision.webevents.yahoo.com/dogzone/index.html">on Yahoo! Groups </a><o:p></o:p> Find people who are <o:p></o:p> crazy about dogs. <o:p></o:p> </div> </div> </div> <div> . <o:p></o:p> </div> </div> <img id="_x0000_i1027" src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1088789/grpspId=1707205954/msgId=3172/stime=1227457506/nc1=4507179/nc2=5191954/nc3=4836045" width="1" border="0" height="1"> __,_._,___ <o:p></o:p> </div> </blockquote> </div></div>