<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta content="text/html;charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head> <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> Don't forget that developing a 'national' auto industry may also be one of the development goals of the Indian Government. Clearly national development goals may conflict with the development goals of other levels of government (ie the Mumbai Metropolitan Area). We generally leave it to the politicians to balance these various trade-offs, but appealing to the courts to force the debate is certainly a legitimate approach. Shanghai took an interesting approach: among other things they apparently banned cars with engine sizes less than 1600 CC. On the one hand this may seem perverse because most people clearly cannot afford cars with such a large engine size, but on the other hand it is quite clear that Shanghai would never be able to accommodate all of the vehicles that it's citizens might want to purchase. Plus this policy also serves to reinforce the <a href="http://biz.yahoo.com/ic/57/57065.html">Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation</a> which produces mid-sized vehicles (the Santana) under license from VW - with engine sizes of 1600! Presumably Mumbai (and many other Indian cities) is in a similar situation. People want mobility (in the sense that being able to move about gives access to more options). If people cannot get where they want to go in a convenient way, then it is not surprising that they will turn to other 'private' options such as personal motorized vehicles. India already has relatively significant rates of 'motorization' in the sense of 'motorized vehicles per capita' (not necessarily cars), so I don't know how much of a difference banning one particular type of vehicle (presumably an accessible one!) will make.... Best regards, Zvi Carlos F. Pardo wrote: <blockquote cite="mid46940F88.1050001@gmail.com" type="cite"> <meta content="text/html;charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"> Just for the sake of argument, I don't get Walter's point about congestion charging being "fairer" than banning a cheap car. Looking at it from a certain angle, congestion charging is also a "ban" from the CBD to those who only have the money to buy a car and put gas on it (most middle class people in low-income countries). It has the perverse effect that only those who have 8 pounds a day to "invest" on the London congestion charging (i.e. rich people) are the ones who have the "privilege" to ride their car inside the city (i would define that as inequity in access). All others can only use their car outside of the CBD. Am I way off? However, there is also the fact that revenue from congestion charging can be used (and is used) for improvements in public transport... I think the best is to (also) include charges to buying the car, such as the ones used in Singapore and Shanghai. The bid system is a way of controlling very low costs of vehicles while not providing any revenue for the cities to improve their public transport, NMT infrastructure, etc. Best regards, <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Carlos F. Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 Bogotá D.C., Colombia Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:carlos.pardo@sutp.org">carlos.pardo@sutp.org</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.sutp.org">www.sutp.org</a> </pre> Lee Schipper wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:46932E11020000380001054B@HERMES.wri.org" type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Thanks. we need to continue this discussion, as it is clear that the boom and bust — either way a rapid rise in uncontrolled private motorization — will endanger ALL indian cities, but a simple banning of the "vehicle" is a poor way of making up for authorities'/society's inability to plan and enforce! Lee Schipper Director of Research EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport 10 G St. NE Washington DC, 20002 +1202 729 7735 FAX +1202 7297775 <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.embarq.wri.org">www.embarq.wri.org</a> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">"Anupam Gupta, CLSA" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:anupam.gupta@clsa.com"><anupam.gupta@clsa.com></a> 7/10/2007 1:02:14 AM </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">Hi All - I've attempted to reply to each of your points individually. Do forgive me, if I've missed anyone out and thanks very much for your answers. Alan Howes - Chandrashekhar can't ban the car. Only the legal process can. What he's said is that he will file a "Public Interest Litigation" and move the court on this issue. It will be left on the court to decide (a) whether the PIL should even be listened to at all and if yes, then to (b) hear the matter. Lee Schipper - you said "if clean, slow, safe and truly small," "Clean" - In India, Euro III norms are applicable in metros and a handful of key cities and Euro II in all other areas. Tata's car will comply with all these norms. (Note that diesel accounts for about 20% of car sales in India and we have CRDI engines although these are not mandatory). "Slow" - not sure what you meant, but its a 630cc engine and I guess the BHP will also be on the lower side. "Safe" - there are no safety requirements in India for cars. One reason why they're so attractively priced. (cheapest car in India retails at just over US$5,000). "Truly small" - we still don't know the specs, but it will have to be smaller than 4,000mm to qualify as a "small car" and get lower excise duty. I fear you bust scenario is more likely than a boom scenario. Congestion pricing in Mumbai has been specifically ruled out by the Chief Minister of Maharahstra (who also happens to be Dr. Chandrashekhar's boss). My personal view is that this car will indeed turn "more two wheeler drivers/riders into victims of l lakh four wheelers". That's where Dr. C is also coming from. Walter Hook - Indeed, banning the car would be outrageous. As outrageous as Mumbai's urban planning, which seems to be devoid of sustainability and scalability. As I mentioned above, the Govt is strictly anti-congestion pricing. As for "market-oriented parking charges" - well, that's not happening either. More and more the Govt is looking at creating supply everywhere without a thought for the longer term. For example - on parking, the Municipality has suggested building huge underground car parks in certain areas. So we're talking - more supply for parking so that more people use cars to travel more often on roads that don't expand as often. Something's not right in that. Regards, Anupam Gupta +91 22 6650 5074 Mobile +91 98204 98981 ------------------------------------------------------------- CLSA CLEAN & GREEN: Please consider our environment before printing this Email The content of this communication is subject to CLSA Legal and Regulatory Notices, which can be viewed at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.clsa.com/disclaimer.html">https://www.clsa.com/disclaimer.html</a> or sent to you upon request. -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> <hr size="4" width="90%"> -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). </pre> </blockquote> </body> </html>