<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)"> <style>  </style> </head> <body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=blue> <div class=Section1> Carlos,   You are way off. Car OWNERSHIP causes relatively few social problems, and a lot of social benefits. The social costs are related to car USE and overuse, and these costs are not uniform but vary greatly depending on location. In some locations, more people are exposed to air pollution, and in some locations the use of the car will create congestion whereas in other locations it will not. It is therefore more socially optimal to regulate car USE than to regulate its ownership.   If the cheap car generates more pollution than other cars, it could certainly be banned on those grounds. But a cheap car generates no more congestion than an expensive car.   Otherwise, banning cheap cars just creates a cash transfer from consumers to the producers of more expensive cars, and yields no public revenue for public investments. It may have some marginal congestion benefits, but these congestion benefits will be poorly targeted and will be therefore far lower than the aggregate social benefits of a congestion charge. In poor areas, where there is likely to be the least congestion, people will be the most likely to be priced out of the auto market, facing higher costs and bringing little congestion relief, while in wealthy areas, where there is likely to be the worst congestion, people will simply switch to more expensive cars and again there will be no congestion relief.   If the purpose of the policy is congestion relief, it is likely to be a far less effective policy than a better targeted congestion charge. If the purpose is to generate revenues for public investments, it does no good either.   With a congestion charge, a rich person or a moderate income person can prioritize their trips into the city center and only make them when the trip is really worth the social cost of 8 pounds (or whatever the charge is). This is a much more flexible and fair policy than an alternative license plate scheme which the rich can always get around by buying a second car, or a ban on cheap cars, which the rich can always get around by buying an expensive car.   Best Walter               -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Zvi Leve Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 11:34 AM To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car   Don't forget that developing a 'national' auto industry may also be one of the development goals of the Indian Government. Clearly national development goals may conflict with the development goals of other levels of government (ie the Mumbai Metropolitan Area). We generally leave it to the politicians to balance these various trade-offs, but appealing to the courts to force the debate is certainly a legitimate approach. Shanghai took an interesting approach: among other things they apparently banned cars with engine sizes less than 1600 CC. On the one hand this may seem perverse because most people clearly cannot afford cars with such a large engine size, but on the other hand it is quite clear that Shanghai would never be able to accommodate all of the vehicles that it's citizens might want to purchase. Plus this policy also serves to reinforce the <a href="http://biz.yahoo.com/ic/57/57065.html">Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation</a> which produces mid-sized vehicles (the Santana) under license from VW - with engine sizes of 1600! Presumably Mumbai (and many other Indian cities) is in a similar situation. People want mobility (in the sense that being able to move about gives access to more options). If people cannot get where they want to go in a convenient way, then it is not surprising that they will turn to other 'private' options such as personal motorized vehicles. India already has relatively significant rates of 'motorization' in the sense of 'motorized vehicles per capita' (not necessarily cars), so I don't know how much of a difference banning one particular type of vehicle (presumably an accessible one!) will make.... Best regards, Zvi Carlos F. Pardo wrote: Just for the sake of argument, I don't get Walter's point about congestion charging being "fairer" than banning a cheap car. Looking at it from a certain angle, congestion charging is also a "ban" from the CBD to those who only have the money to buy a car and put gas on it (most middle class people in low-income countries). It has the perverse effect that only those who have 8 pounds a day to "invest" on the London congestion charging (i.e. rich people) are the ones who have the "privilege" to ride their car inside the city (i would define that as inequity in access). All others can only use their car outside of the CBD. Am I way off? However, there is also the fact that revenue from congestion charging can be used (and is used) for improvements in public transport... I think the best is to (also) include charges to buying the car, such as the ones used in Singapore and Shanghai. The bid system is a way of controlling very low costs of vehicles while not providing any revenue for the cities to improve their public transport, NMT infrastructure, etc. Best regards, <pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Carlos F. Pardo</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC)</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Bogotá D.C., Colombia</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'><a href="mailto:carlos.pardo@sutp.org">carlos.pardo@sutp.org</a> <a href="http://www.sutp.org">www.sutp.org</a> </pre> Lee Schipper wrote: <pre style='margin-left:.5in' wrap="">Thanks. we need to continue this discussion, as it is clear that the</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>boom and bust — either way a rapid rise in uncontrolled private</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>motorization — will endanger ALL indian cities, but a simple banning</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>of the "vehicle" is a poor way of making up for authorities'/society's</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>inability to plan and enforce!</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left: .5in'>Lee Schipper</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Director of Research</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>EMBARQ, the WRI Center</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>for Sustainable Transport</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>10 G St. NE</pre><pre style='margin-left: .5in'>Washington DC, 20002</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>+1202 729 7735</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>FAX +1202 7297775</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'><a href="http://www.embarq.wri.org">www.embarq.wri.org</a></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left: .5in'> </pre> <blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite> <blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite> <blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre style='margin-left:.5in' wrap="">"Anupam Gupta, CLSA" <a href="mailto:anupam.gupta@clsa.com"><anupam.gupta@clsa.com></a> 7/10/2007 1:02:14 AM</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left: .5in'> </pre></blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre style='margin-left:.5in' wrap="">Hi All - I've attempted to reply to each of your points individually.</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Do</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>forgive me, if I've missed anyone out and thanks very much for your</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>answers.</pre><pre style='margin-left: .5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Alan Howes - Chandrashekhar can't ban the car. Only the legal process</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>can.</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>What he's said is that he will file a "Public Interest Litigation" and</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>move</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>the court on this issue. It will be left on the court to decide (a)</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>whether</pre><pre style='margin-left: .5in'>the PIL should even be listened to at all and if yes, then to (b) hear</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>the</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>matter. </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Lee Schipper - you said "if clean, slow, safe and truly small," </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>"Clean" - In India, Euro III norms are applicable in metros and a</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>handful of</pre><pre style='margin-left: .5in'>key cities and Euro II in all other areas. Tata's car will comply with</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>all</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>these norms. (Note that diesel accounts for about 20% of car sales in</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>India</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>and we have CRDI engines although these are not mandatory). </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>"Slow" - not sure what you meant, but its a 630cc engine and I guess</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>the BHP</pre><pre style='margin-left: .5in'>will also be on the lower side. </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>"Safe" - there are no safety requirements in India for cars. One reason</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>why</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>they're so attractively priced. (cheapest car in India retails at just</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>over</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>US$5,000). </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>"Truly small" - we still don't know the specs, but it will have to be</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>smaller than 4,000mm to qualify as a "small car" and get lower excise</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>duty.</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>I fear you bust scenario is more likely than a boom scenario. </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Congestion pricing in Mumbai has been specifically ruled out by the</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Chief</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Minister of Maharahstra (who also happens to be Dr. Chandrashekhar's</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>boss).</pre><pre style='margin-left: .5in'>My personal view is that this car will indeed turn "more two wheeler</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>drivers/riders into victims of l lakh four wheelers". That's where Dr.</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>C is</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>also coming from. </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Walter Hook - Indeed, banning the car would be outrageous. As</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>outrageous as</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Mumbai's urban planning, which seems to be devoid of sustainability</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>and</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>scalability. As I mentioned above, the Govt is strictly</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>anti-congestion</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>pricing. As for "market-oriented parking charges" - well, that's not</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>happening either. More and more the Govt is looking at creating supply</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>everywhere without a thought for the longer term. For example - on</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>parking,</pre><pre style='margin-left: .5in'>the Municipality has suggested building huge underground car parks in</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>certain areas. So we're talking - more supply for parking so that more</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>people use cars to travel more often on roads that don't expand as</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>often.</pre><pre style='margin-left: .5in'>Something's not right in that. </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Regards,</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Anupam Gupta</pre><pre style='margin-left: .5in'>+91 22 6650 5074</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Mobile +91 98204 98981</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>-------------------------------------------------------------</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left: .5in'>CLSA CLEAN & GREEN: Please consider our environment before printing</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>this Email</pre><pre style='margin-left: .5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>The content of this communication is subject to CLSA Legal and</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Regulatory Notices, which can be viewed at</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'><a href="https://www.clsa.com/disclaimer.html">https://www.clsa.com/disclaimer.html</a> or sent to you upon request.</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left: .5in'>-------------------------------------------------------- </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. </pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left: .5in'>Please go to <a href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. 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The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement.</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> </pre><pre style='margin-left: .5in'>================================================================</pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). </pre></div> </body> </html>