I agree with Setty and was surprised to see Jonathan's language...was looking for evidence of it all being said in a lighter vein but failed to see any. As an NGO working for sustainable Transportation (and indeed sustainable development) I feel pessimism is the best way to encourage "business as usual" attitude, and pessimism is what comes across from Jonathan's message which surprised me as my exchanges with him on Email some time back were very enlightening for me. -- Sujit Patwardhan Parisar/ PTTF Pune, India<div> <div>On 4/16/07, Pendakur <<a href="mailto:pendakur@interchange.ubc.ca" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> pendakur@interchange.ubc.ca</a>> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">I wish Dr. Richmond would list his favorite cities and tell us the attributes which make them great.  Also, before we characterize any city, with serious problems, as a "disgusting dump", I would suggest that Dr. Richmond look up the meaning of his attributes and then evaluate, from a planning perspective, what he would suggest to improve Chennai. His diatribe below is neither positive nor should it belong in a sober discussion among professionals.  SUSTRAN network is meant for professional discussion, promoting learning and exchange of ideas and knowledge. Cheers. Setty Dr. V. Setty Pendakur Professor Emeritus, University of BC Honorary Professor, China National Academy of Sciences; Director, ITDP (NY) & Secretary, ABE90-TRB President, Pacific Policy and Planning Associates 702- 1099 Marinaside Cresecent, Vancouver, BC Canada V6Z 2Z3 604-263-3576; Fax: 604-263-6493 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=<a href="mailto:interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca@list.jca.apc.org</a> ] On Behalf Of Jonathan E. D. Richmond Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 10:44 AM To: Eric Britton; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Re: Second Master Plan for Chennai. - request for comments I am in Chennai right now. I would be amazed if anything close to planning were ever to be possible here. The city is a disgusting dump -- in fact, the whole place appears to be one big public urinal as far as I can see! The city cannot even plan public toilets: the few that exist are so sickening that people piss on the outsides of them as well as in the street everywhere. Almost everything in this city is a mass of unplanned ugliness. I don't know if there is a city bus system, as no information is available (as is usual in Indian cities, nothing is done for the consumer). There is a small rail system, served by filthy trains whose doors stay open at all times. I got off one such train last night to be landed in a deserted station with no information and filled with people sleeping rough in the middle of piles of garbage: the smell was so bad that I could hardly walk to the main road to have the opportunity of being ripped off by one of the many rickshaw wallahs who refuse to use their meters. So, how does one plan in this environment? My answer is that there is no point in planning at all, because the plans will not come to reality until institutions have changed. The existing house must be put in order before anything new can be realized -- and that is a very hard job amidst the mismanagement, corruption, and dirt that constitutes Chennai today.                                 --Jonathan ----- Jonathan Richmond <span onmouseup="SetCallButtonPressed(this, 0,0)" onmousedown="SetCallButtonPressed(this, 1,0)" onmouseover="SetCallButton(this, 1,0);skype_active=CheckCallButton(this);" onmouseout="SetCallButton(this, 0,0);HideSkypeMenu();" class="skype_tb_injection" id="__skype_highlight_id"> <span title="Change country code ..." onclick="javascript:if(1){doRunCMD(event, 'chdial','0');}else{doRunCMD(event, 'call','+16173954360');}event.preventBubble();return false;" onmouseout="SetCallButtonPart(this, 0);" onmouseover="SetCallButtonPart(this, 1);" class="skype_tb_injection_left" id="__skype_highlight_id_left"> <img src="chrome://skype_ff_toolbar_win/content/cb_transparent_l.gif" style="height: 11px; width: 7px;" class="skype_tb_img_adge" height="11"> <img style="width: 16px;" src="chrome://skype_ff_toolbar_win/content/famfamfam/us.gif" title="" class="skype_tb_img_flag" name="skype_tb_img_f0"> <img src="chrome://skype_ff_toolbar_win/content/space.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; height: 1px; width: 1px;" class="skype_tb_img_space" height="1" width="1"><img src="chrome://skype_ff_toolbar_win/content/space.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; height: 1px; width: 1px;" class="skype_tb_img_space" height="1" width="1"> <img src="chrome://skype_ff_toolbar_win/content/arrow.gif" title="" class="skype_tb_img_arrow" name="skype_tb_img_a0"><img src="chrome://skype_ff_toolbar_win/content/space.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; height: 1px; width: 1px;" class="skype_tb_img_space" height="1" width="1"> <img src="chrome://skype_ff_toolbar_win/content/space.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; height: 1px; width: 1px;" class="skype_tb_img_space" height="1" width="1"><img src="chrome://skype_ff_toolbar_win/content/space.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; height: 1px; width: 1px;" class="skype_tb_img_space" height="1" width="1"> <span title="Call this phone number in United States of America with Skype: +16173954360" onclick="javascript:doRunCMD(event, 'call','+16173954360');event.preventBubble();return false;" onmouseout="SetCallButtonPart(this, 0)" onmouseover="SetCallButtonPart(this, 1)" class="skype_tb_injection_right" id="__skype_highlight_id_right"> <img src="chrome://skype_ff_toolbar_win/content/space.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; height: 1px; width: 1px;" class="skype_tb_img_space" height="1" width="1"> <img src="chrome://skype_ff_toolbar_win/content/space.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; height: 1px; width: 1px;" class="skype_tb_img_space" height="1" width="1"><img src="chrome://skype_ff_toolbar_win/content/space.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; height: 1px; width: 1px;" class="skype_tb_img_space" height="1" width="1"> <img src="chrome://skype_ff_toolbar_win/content/space.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; height: 1px; width: 1px;" class="skype_tb_img_space" height="1" width="1">1 (617) 395-4360 <img src="chrome://skype_ff_toolbar_win/content/cb_transparent_r.gif" style="height: 11px; width: 19px;" class="skype_tb_img_adge" height="11"> e-mail: <a href="mailto:richmond@alum.mit.edu" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> richmond@alum.mit.edu</a> <a href="http://the-tech.mit.edu/%7Erichmond/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://the-tech.mit.edu/~richmond/</a> -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to <a href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss</a> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to <a href="http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss </a> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). </blockquote></div> </div><div>-- ------------------------------------------------------ Sujit Patwardhan <a href="mailto:sujit@vsnl.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> sujit@vsnl.com</a> <a href="mailto:sujitjp@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> sujitjp@gmail.com</a> "Yamuna", ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007 India Tel: 25537955 ----------------------------------------------------- Hon. Secretary: Parisar <a href="http://www.parisar.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> www.parisar.org</a> ------------------------------------------------------ Founder Member: PTTF (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum) <a href="http://www.pttf.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> www.pttf.net</a> ------------------------------------------------------ </div> -- ------------------------------------------------------ Sujit Patwardhan <a href="mailto:sujit@vsnl.com">sujit@vsnl.com</a> <a href="mailto:sujitjp@gmail.com">sujitjp@gmail.com </a> "Yamuna", ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007 India Tel: 25537955 ----------------------------------------------------- Hon. Secretary: Parisar <a href="http://www.parisar.org"> www.parisar.org</a> ------------------------------------------------------ Founder Member: PTTF (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum) <a href="http://www.pttf.net">www.pttf.net</a> ------------------------------------------------------