<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.5730.11" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Three observations : </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>1) Removing bus lay-bys is not necessarily a reduction in priority for buses. It allows the bus to stand in the normal roadway, without requiring it to pull in from the traffic and then try to re-enter the traffic stream. Depending on the pavement configuration, recovering the space previously occupied by the lay-by could give more space to the waiting passengers and allow facilities such as shelters to be erected if the pavement was previously too narrow to do so; or to allow more space for the other pavement users including pedestrians and cycle paths. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>2) The reported incidents in the London case sound like a poorly managed case where a bit of common sense and co-ordination would have resolved it. If drivers are braking late for stops, then it's an internal communication, training and disciplinary matter for the bus operating companies. I don't see why these stops should somehow be different from the countless stops around the rest of London which never had lay-bys and the police have not ordered them closed. It sounds to me as though a few motorists who have used the road for years were annoyed by finding themselves behind the buses stopped at the bus stops, and have embellished their complaints. There is nothing in this situation that couldn't have been sorted out by putting a few people from the traffic authorities and the operators on the ground for a few days to sort things out. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>3) Giving absolute priority for buses to pull out into traffic is risky, and requires good understanding and behaviour on the part of 100% of road-users. Anything less that 100% all round, and there will be collisions. I agree with Michael Yeates' practical approach where buses do not have the absolute right, and should await an indication from the motorist - it's not that difficult in practice. The key is to have a good ongoing publicity campaign and build it around the concept of consideration, courtesy, a measure of being a good driver. In the late-1980's when I worked in Dublin Bus I implemented a set of signs on the rear of the bus asking motorists to please give way to buses signalling to exit a stop - I had seen this in Yorkshire (Leeds, I think) and nicked their good practice. Almost two decades on, buses in Dublin still carry these signs, and many motorists (but by no means all) will allow buses out from stops, make lane changes etc. The bus drivers always wave and acknowledge this little courtesy, which in turn makes the motorist feel appreciated and more likely to do it again. In turn, bus drivers must have the discipline not to launch themselves out into traffic and force motorists to yield - that is very dangerous and it creates a climate of hostility.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>With best wishes, </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Brendan Finn. </FONT></DIV> <DIV>_____________________________________________________________________________________<BR>From Brendan Finn, ETTS Ltd.   e-mail : <A href="mailto:etts@indigo.ie">etts@indigo.ie</A>   tel : +353.87.2530286</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=michael@yeatesit.biz href="mailto:michael@yeatesit.biz">Michael Yeates</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com href="mailto:NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com">NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com href="mailto:NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com">NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com</A> ; <A title=LotsLessCars@yahoogroups.com href="mailto:LotsLessCars@yahoogroups.com">LotsLessCars@yahoogroups.com</A> ; <A title=Sustran-discuss@jca.apc.org href="mailto:Sustran-discuss@jca.apc.org">Sustran-discuss@jca.apc.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 21, 2007 12:47 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [sustran] Re: [NewMobilityCafe] problem in London</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>Hi ...<BR><BR>One solution in use in Oz (well certainly in Brisbane with some 700 buses in its bus fleet) is a requirement for ALL traffic to GIVE WAY to buses signalling an intention to pull out from an indented bus stop/bay. It applies on roads with 60 and 70 (and 80km/h?) speed limits.<BR><BR>It works reasonably well esp if the bus drivers provide some notice, ie don't suddenly put on the right turn indicators AND pull out simultaneously ......... AND motorists indicate early eg flashing headlights is useful to signal the bus driver.<BR><BR>The police action is clearly a typical pro-motorists' perspective whereas the legal situation is or should be quite clear namely,<BR><BR>1. bus driver required to signal intention to leave the bus bay ... right indicators on for sufficient/reasonable time<BR>2. motorists slow down or if necessary stop to GIVE WAY to the bus (flashing headlights is useful to signal the bus driver)<BR>3. motorists travelling too fast or too close to avoid crashing into the vehicle in front are driving illegally on a number of counts eg too close, too fast, without due care and attention, etc and probably others.<BR><BR>I am amazed this system is not in place having assumed it isn't otherwise the police decision does not make sense (?) so if this is a novel solution, then I will try to send a photo of the signage involved.<BR><BR>One other point ... I would strongly suggest that the problem reduces dramatically when rather more priority is provided to public transport eg as with Edinburgh's "green lane" system that provides the buses and cyclists and taxis with priority and creates space for the buses to pull out ... <BR><BR>So in terms of scoring using one example of Eric's "consistent philosophy" approach, the "York hierarchy" priority of peds including people with disabilities (see the Pedestrian Council of Australia for the rationale) then cyclists then public transport (then taxis?) then small freight/delivery then cars, the London police and TfL example puts cars first ...!!! <BR><BR>Not exactly what I would have expected from "green(er) transport Ken".<BR><BR>Michael Yeates<BR>Public Transport Alliance <BR><BR>At 05:57 PM 20/01/2007, Eric Britton wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT face=arial size=2>Simon Norton wrote on this date: “Any thoughts on this situation which was recently the subject of an article in a<BR>local newspaper. Transport for London recently removed some bus laybys on a main road . . . “<BR> <BR>I have, as maybe some of you know, given this a lot of thought and indeed I think there is an answer to this kind of unnecessary (I think) and potentially harmful anomaly. Briefly and by the numbers:<BR>  <OL> <LI>If there is one thing that can be said without a shadow of a doubt about our exiting transport arrangements in cities, it is that there are notoriously piecemeal. <LI>Which to me suggest that what is needed is a broadly shared, explicit, consistent philosophy.<BR> <LI>That indeed is what in fact many of us are trying to get at here.</FONT> </LI></OL><FONT face=arial size=2> <BR>I am struggling with this and am trying to see what I can do to put down the main principles of such a philosophy, which if you are interested you can find in the Agenda site at <A href="http://www.newmobility.org/">http://www.newmobility.org</A>, clicking Philosophy on the top menu. It is, as you will see, kind of all over the place, but I would say that I have something on the order of say 80% of the core values there. <BR> <BR>We need something that we can state relatively succinctly that can be understood by all of the key actors (local authorities, police, media, experts, interest groups, and the general public) which they can then debate among themselves and, in each place perhaps according to their own volition and conditions, hammer out something that is broadly shared and understood. <BR> <BR>In fact, I would suggest that if it is not something that can be read and understood by a reasonably bright eleven year old, then we probably have it somehow wrong. <BR> <BR>Does this help at all? And if it is a start, what next? All critiques and suggestions most welcome, both here to the group or to me personally as you think will serve us all best.<BR> <BR>Eric Britton<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT face=tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR> <B>On Behalf Of </B>Simon Norton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January 20, 2007 12:09 AM<BR><B>To:</B> lotslesscars@yahoogroups.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [LotsLessCars] problem in London<BR></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman, Times"> <BR></FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>Any thoughts on this situation which was recently the subject of an article in a<BR>local newspaper.<BR><BR>Transport for </FONT>London recently removed some bus laybys on a main road in outer<BR>London. This is often advocated as a means of reducing delays to buses caused by<BR>them having to wait for other traffic to pass before they can rejoin the traffic<BR>stream -- and then as a result probably missing the next set of traffic lights.<BR>I presume that that was TfL's motivation.<BR><BR>However, on this occasion there were reports of collisions between cars and <BR>buses when the latter had to brake to serve stops. As a result the police<BR>stepped in and ordered the bus stops closed. This created consternation among<BR>bus users, particularly the elderly and infirm, who would now have to walk<BR>further.<BR><BR>I'm not sure whether the relevant section of road has a speed limit of 40mph or<BR>30mph. Would reduction to 20mph have been a fairer way to deal with the<BR>problem ?<BR><BR>The road in question is part of the A1, just inside from the North Circular<BR>Road where it passes through a largely residential area. I remember when many<BR>years ago plans to widen it to dual 3 lane were scrapped after massive protest.<BR><BR>Before I give my own moral on the situation I'll wait to see what others have to<BR>say.<BR><BR>Simon Norton<BR><FONT face=arial size=2> <BR> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>