The issue of discipline is brought up by all. Carlos's mail makes sensible points. -- Sujit <div>On 4/26/06, Carlos F. Pardo SUTP <<a href="mailto:carlos.pardo@sutp.org"> carlos.pardo@sutp.org</a>> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">The concept of enforcement can be applied, but not as the sole measure of changing driver's behavior. As Sunny notes, people may not even care about these rules. I sometimes think transport planners and engineers think people are cows and should be treated that way when managing transport. But we should expect more of people, and find innovative ways to change their behavior towards more sustainable transport practices. Enforcement is a first step towards awareness of transport users' minds, but we can go further. I love one example from Bogotá: citizens were taught to stop before cebra crossings with the help of a mime who would "push" cars back and allow pedestrians cross safely. In one year the problem was solved, and not one ticket was issued. People get the message... if you know how to convey it. Best regards, Carlos F. Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) Cl 125bis # 41-28 of 404 Bogotá D.C., Colombia Tel: +57 (1) 215 7812 Fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 e-mail: <a href="mailto:carlos.pardo@sutp.org">carlos.pardo@sutp.org</a> Página: <a href="http://www.sutp.org"> www.sutp.org</a> - Visite nuestra nueva sección de Latinoamérica y el Caribe en <a href="http://www.sutp.org/esp/espindex.htm">http://www.sutp.org/esp/espindex.htm</a> - Únase al grupo de discusión de Transporte Sostenible en Latinoamérica enviando un correo a  <a href="mailto:sutp-lac-subscribe@gruposyahoo.com">sutp-lac-subscribe@gruposyahoo.com</a> -----Mensaje original----- De: sustran-discuss-bounces+carlos.pardo=<a href="mailto:sutp.org@list.jca.apc.org"> sutp.org@list.jca.apc.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+carlos.pardo=sutp.org@list.jca.apc.org">sustran-discuss-bounces+carlos.pardo=sutp.org@list.jca.apc.org</a>] En nombre de Sunny Enviado el: Miércoles, 26 de Abril de 2006 09:10 a.m. Para: <a href="mailto:sri@giaspn01.vsnl.net.in">sri@giaspn01.vsnl.net.in</a>; Asia and the Pacific sustainable transport Asunto: [sustran] Reply to Prof. JKG Discipline is needed Dear Prof, Very nice to see ur mail. from my point of view seeing Indian cities Bangkok and other Thai cities where car dependency is much more than India I feel that though strict traffic rules are implemented it might not reduce the traffic growth. If you compare the driving behaviour of Thais and Indians I would say that Thais stick to the rules, while many of us Indians do not care for a traffic signal when the road is clean. Fines would be a great idea but in India the need is more for a much stricter discipline among the police officials in not being corrupt. In my home town,Visakhapatnam, and my capital city, Hyderabad, I have seen traffic police checking motorists in the first and last weeks of the months and many of them usually take a bribe starting from 50 rupees, I say this as I personally experienced this situation, inspite of having all the required documents i was fined because my motorbike did not have a black dot on the headlight. So I feel that enforcing traffic rules would be a great idea for the sake of a policy but for the implementation it will be filling the pockets of the policemen and the constables and people driving usually get a belief that even if the police catches without a drivers license a 200 rupees in the pocket is enough to get away with, when this attitude of the police changes then we might see this present chaos into an "Organised Chaos". To solve this Organised Chaos even I agree with you that contemporary engineering solutions do no good but rather we need a social approach. More technological solutions will only result disadvantaging the vulnerable groups like the pedestrian overpasses that infest Bangkok and I have seen some even on the National Highways in Thailand. Another comment on the countdown signals, I presume that this method of ITS is disadvantageous since it can tend to increase the drivers speed on seeing a smaller number...kindly correct me if i understood it wrong. Coming to the main idea wht I understand from Sujit's comment was the issue of solving the growing need of personal mobility and a new solution for the present problems. I would suggest a solution that incorporates every user except the car user. I would ask Sujit if there is a possibility of introducing shared space in Pune,as I have never been to this wonderful city and have only heard both the good and bad sides of it. Shared space concept was received very well in European countries and it is an idea in which the car user is not given the false idea that they are the kings of the road and everyone else have to give way for them but instead in a shared space cars need to wait for the people....I guess many other members on this forum have personally experienced the merits and demerits of shared space and would be kind enough to throw more light on this area. I guess this idea would be good for developing cities like in India where we can cut the feeling of road ownership of car users at the roots. I would like your and other members comments on the same. Sincerely, Sunny ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). Because of the history of the list, the main focus is on urban transport policy in Asia. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). Because of the history of the list, the main focus is on urban transport policy in Asia. </blockquote></div> -- ------------------------------------------------------ Sujit Patwardhan <a href="mailto:sujit@vsnl.com">sujit@vsnl.com</a> <a href="mailto:sujitjp@gmail.com"> sujitjp@gmail.com</a> "Yamuna", ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007 India Tel: 25537955 ----------------------------------------------------- Hon. Secretary: Parisar <a href="http://www.parisar.org"> www.parisar.org</a> ------------------------------------------------------ Founder Member: PTTF (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum) <a href="http://www.pttf.net">www.pttf.net</a> ------------------------------------------------------