<HEAD> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR> <DIV> -----Forwarded Message----- From: Eric Bruun <ERICBRUUN@EARTHLINK.NET> Sent: Feb 8, 2006 5:00 PM To: Walter Hook <WHOOK@ITDP.ORG> Subject: RE: More on perceived railmarket in Asia + BRT in Europe <ZZZHEAD><ZZZMETA name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802"></ZZZHEAD><ZZZBODY> <DIV>Walter</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am sorry to hear that the DMRC backers are lobbying against BRT.  I also like the idea of setting up a similar organization to manage BRT projects. I am glad to hear that there are rights-of-way where  there needn't be a conflict with auto users.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I don't agree with you that the loans and other aid are necessarily a bad thing.  There is a lot of technology transfer and management skill development attached to this project. This will help other Indian cities as well. Certainly Mumbai will be helped by a better domestic rail industry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am also skeptical that BRT would actually be built to the same speed, capacity and reliability standards as the Metro. If it is not, it will not have the same impact, either in travel or in focusing development along the lines. Given the urgency of the problems in Delhi, I can see why authorities wouldn't want to take a risk on an unproven solution. Maybe after the first real BRT line is built and it performs well, it will be an easier sell. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I recognize the fact of the low income in India, but lets put this in perspective. The entire phases I and II of the Metro (about 100 kms) was to cost a bit over $3 billion in 2002 US dollars. This is far less than a similar system would cost in a richer country. And how much money gets spent every year by the richest people in India just in importing cars and fuel? ( I am actually going to try to find this out.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On balance, I don't think it really rates as a major scandal or waste of money that a city of 13+ million spends $3 billion given all of the benefits. The scandals are 1) that it is so hard to also build BRT which is also needed and 2) that the commuter railroads and existing bus services are apparently poorly integrated with the Metro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Eric Bruun</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Eric Bruun</DIV> <DIV> -----Original Message----- From: Walter Hook <WHOOK@ITDP.ORG> Sent: Feb 8, 2006 4:33 PM To: 'Eric Bruun' <ERICBRUUN@EARTHLINK.NET>, 'Asia and the Pacific sustainable transport' <SUSTRAN-DISCUSS@LIST.JCA.APC.ORG> Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: Perceived railmarket in Asia + BRT in Europe </DIV><ZZZHTML xmlns:st1="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><ZZZHEAD><ZZZMETA CONTENT="text/html; charset=us-ascii" HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type"><ZZZMETA name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><ZZZMETA name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 10"><ZZZMETA name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 10"><ZZZLINK rel="File-List" href="cid:filelist.xml@01C62CCD.5EB006B0"><?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o:SmartTagType name="country-region" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" downloadurl="http://www.5iantlavalamp.com/"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType name="PersonName" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" downloadurl="http://www.microsoft.com"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType name="City" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" downloadurl="http://www.5iamas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType name="place" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" downloadurl="http://www.5iantlavalamp.com/"></o:SmartTagType><ZZZ!--[IF 9] mso gte><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:DoNotRelyOnCSS/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><ZZZ![ENDIF]--><ZZZ!--[IF 9] mso gte><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:SpellingState>Clean</w:SpellingState> <w:GrammarState>Clean</w:GrammarState> <w:DocumentKind>DocumentEmail</w:DocumentKind> <w:EnvelopeVis/> <w:Compatibility> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><ZZZ![ENDIF]--><ZZZ!--[IF !mso]> <STYLE> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } </STYLE> <ZZZ![ENDIF]--> <STYLE> <ZZZ!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:SimSun; panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1; mso-font-alt:\5B8B\4F53; mso-font-charset:134; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:3 135135232 16 0 262145 0;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:1627421319 -2147483648 8 0 66047 0;} @font-face {font-family:"\@SimSun"; panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1; mso-font-charset:134; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:3 135135232 16 0 262145 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:SimSun;} a:ZZZlink, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-ascii-font-family:Arial; mso-hansi-font-family:Arial; mso-bidi-font-family:Arial; color:navy;} span.SpellE {mso-style-name:""; mso-spl-e:yes;} span.GramE {mso-style-name:""; mso-gram-e:yes;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </STYLE> <ZZZ!--[IF mso gte 10]> <STYLE> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} </STYLE> <ZZZ![ENDIF]--></ZZZHEAD><ZZZBODY lang=EN-US style="tab-interval: .5in" link="blue" vlink="blue"> <DIV class=Section1> Dear Eric,<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Certainly <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:City><st1:place>Delhi</st1:place></st1:City> can use both BRT and Metro.  However, the density of Old <st1:City><st1:place>Delhi</st1:place></st1:City> is very high but the density of <st1:City><st1:place>new Delhi</st1:place></st1:City> is quite low, and the metro only passes briefly and tangentially through old <st1:City><st1:place>delhi</st1:place></st1:City>.   The road right of ways in New Delhi are massive, like 40 � 60 meters or more, with much of this land underutilized, so one can easily retrofit many of these streets with BRT without reducing motor vehicle throughput, particularly given the fact that the buses are being relocated out of the mixed traffic lanes where they currently consume two or more lanes due to irregular stopping behavior and volumes of as many as 200 buses an hour. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The Delhi High Capacity Bus system is still being widely talked about and they say they are going to implement the first corridor any day now, but they have been saying that for more than three years.  <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The main factor seems to be that there was simply enough money both foreign and domestic in the Delhi metro to allow the project promoters to force through the creation of a fully independent parastatal <st1:PersonName>org</st1:PersonName>anization, Delhi Metro Rail Corporation, which while quite unaccountable has the decided advantage that it is capable of getting things built and cutting through the bureaucracy. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> We have been pressing for years now to get <st1:City><st1:place>Delhi</st1:place></st1:City> to set up a Special Purpose Vehicle akin to the Delhi Metro Rail Corp (DMRC) to give the BRT interests an institutional home from where to coordinate the needed works and also become a comparative lobbying juggernaut.  There has been some recent progress in this regard, I hear, but the process is frustratingly slow.  <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The problem is that the DMRC and its various domestic and foreign corporate backers are actually killing politically much more cost effective BRT proposals.  Per capita incomes in <st1:country-region><st1:place>India</st1:place></st1:country-region> remain under $500 a year, annual per passenger capital and operating subsidies are several times the per capita income(it is impossible to know for sure as the books of the DMRC are a state secret it seems) is hard to justify in this economic context.  <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Sensible municipal authorities in India could just make rational plans for metro in one or two high volume corridors and BRT in other corridors and develop integrated systems, but this just isnt� how projects are promoted and implemented in India right now largely due to the weakness of the government.  <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Eric Bruun Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 4:19 PM To: Asia and the Pacific sustainable transport; Asia and the Pacific sustainable transport Subject: [sustran] Re: Perceived railmarket in Asia + BRT in Europe <o:p> </o:p> <DIV> Sujit:<o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV>  <o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV> What are the "obvious reasons" that Govt prefers Metro? I see several reasons, some of which<o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV> might be "bad" some of which might be "good" depending upon your perspective. From what I understand of Delhi, both the Metro and many kilometers of bus lanes are being built.<o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV> I think that this is the only realistic approach given the urgency and severity of the air pollution, the traffic congestion and the distances involved.<o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV>  <o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV> While BRT could certainly be cheaper to construct than the Metro, my analysis of the situation is that it would have taken years to gather the right-of-way through the core of the city. The population densities reach 23,000 per square kilometer. Some people and businesses would have to be displaced and relocated. No doubt the motorists would have protested taking their precious road space, too. Probably the policy-makers themselves are amongst those opposing taking space from autos since they are amongst the elite who own cars. (I think this is also one of the main reasons why bicycle lanes are disappearing in China.)<o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV>  <o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV> It would also take years to get the traffic re-organized to favor the BRT vehicles consistently, reliably and safely across intersections and through neighborhoods. It would have to be very reliable and with long station spacings in order to have a decent speed. Speed is important for a city with the distances of Delhi. Speed is the way that people living in the outer areas can reach employment in far away locations and also what attracts people out of their autos and off their motorcycles.) <o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV>  <o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV> As I have argued here before, I think that high-performance Metros sometimes are the only realistic answer, even if it does cost more money. Because a nation doesn't have as much money to spend on infrastructure doesn't change the physical and political realities facing megacities. <o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV>  <o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV> Finally, I note from the IRJ article posted yesterday that the 55 kms of the Metro already open are carrying 700,000 trips per day. It must be pretty heavily used. The entire Washington DC Metro system of about 140 kms carries the same amount and it gets plenty crowded during the rush hours. <o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV>  <o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV> Eric Bruun  <o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV>  <o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV> -----Original Message----- From: Sujit Patwardhan <SUJIT@VSNL.COM>Sent: Feb 8, 2006 1:27 AM To: Asia and the Pacific sustainable transport <SUSTRAN-DISCUSS@LIST.JCA.APC.ORG>Subject: [sustran] Re: Perceived railmarket in Asia + BRT in Europe <ZZZHTML><ZZZBODY>8 February 2006 I agree with Karl. In Indian cities too wherever BRT is being hesitatingly (Govt prefers the high cost Metro for obvious reasons) implemented (Delhi, Ahmedabad, Pune) the design comprises a central lane for BRT buses, with safe lanes for bicycles and pedestrians on the sides. Major credit for this must go to Dr Geetam Tiwari and Dr Dinesh Mohan of TRIPP, IIT Delhi who have been tirelessly advocating the need for inclusion of these vulnerable modes of traffic (walking and cycling) in planning the road design. In fact at least in such cases, it is the possibility of BRT that may ultimately make the roads in Pune safe for walking and cycling. As the once "city of cyclists" we are looking forward to speedy (and meticulous) implementation of BRT. -- Sujit Sujit Patwardhan PTTF Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum, c/o Parisar, "Yamuna", ICS Colony,Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007 India At 09:44 AM 2/8/2006, you wrote:<o:p></o:p></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt" cite="" type="cite"> Zvi, In my view one of the most appealing things about BRT is that most new applications, including all of the Chinese BRT systems being developed, are median-aligned. The bike lanes meanwhile are side-aligned, and even when there are no bike lanes the bikes tend to ride on the side. So there is usually no contradiction between bikes and BRT and no need to choose one or the other. In fact it's the opposite. The present situation is often for high volumes of buses and bicycles to be in conflict in the side lanes, which is bad for both. With BRT you remove these conflicts, improving conditions for both. Karl -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+karl=dnet.net.id@list.jca.apc.org [<A href="mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+karl=dnet.net.id@list.jca.apc.org" eudora="autourl"> mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+karl=dnet.net.id@list.jca.apc.org</A>] On Behalf Of Zvi Leve Sent: Wednesday, 8 February 2006 7:09 AM To: Asia and the Pacific sustainable transport Subject: [sustran] Re: Perceived railmarket in Asia + BRT in Europe Hello, > >This will definately not quiet the discussion about appropriate transport for developing countries: >  > As has already been pointed out, in the context of developing countries mass transit is attracting many people who would have alternatively used non-motorized modes of transport (which presumably are more "sustainable"). For example, in China, bicycle rights of way (ROW) are steadily eroding as more and more road space is allocated to motorized vehicles. For BRT to be succesful, it should ideally have a completely dedicated ROW and signal priority in the congested sections. Maintaining BRT ROW often comes at the expense of completely prohibiting bicycle traffic on certain roads. Obviously the best solution would be to find a way to maintain (or even improve) non-motorized accessibility while also improving public transit accessibility. Given that these two goals may be at odds, how best to procede?  From a 'sustainability' point of view: if BRT can move 15,000 people per hour in a given corridor (in say 100 vehicles) at such and such an energy consumption and cost, whereas the same road space could serve 3000 bicycles (clearly less "through-put") with no fuel consumption and no emissions, what is the better use of the space? Just some food for thought! Zvi<o:p></o:p></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> Sustainable Urban Transport --------------------------------------------------- Sujit Patwardhan Member PTTF Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum, c/o Parisar, "Yamuna", ICS Colony,Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007 India Tel: +91 20 25537955 Cell: +91 98220 26627 Email: <sujit@vsnl.com>, <sujitjp@gmail.com> -----------------------------------------------------</ZZZBODY> <o:p></o:p></ZZZHTML></DIV></DIV></ZZZBODY></ZZZHTML></ZZZBODY></DIV></DIV></BODY>