Re: [sustran] Skyway proposal ‘mind-boggling,’ says rival firm

[Pardo]

What about a letter (sort of a statement against...) signed by various parties? Would that work more than separate quotes?

Pardo

Written from the unexpected outcome of Abulafia. Please excuse typos. 

On 4/03/2012, at 21:43, Cornie Huizenga <cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org> wrote:

> Hi Bert,
> 
> Good to hear that civil society is concerned about this. A few thoughts from my side on dialogs etc:
> I think that it would be best for private sector to remain above the parties for the time being - getting involved in discussions with private sector developers brings the risk that you start discussing on their terms and the danger is that you just make a bad thing a little bit less worse;
> Create support from high level public figures;
> List, and remind government of, all public statements in favor of public transport e.g. National EST strategy, agreeing to Bangkok 2020 Declaration. The fact that 70% of trips are by public transport is very significant - a large part of this tricycle, jeepney etc will never be allowed on an elevated highway;
> Invite ADB and WB to consultation events and the make use of the quotes they make there - I doubt that they would come out against the project if you ask them for a quote;
> Right from the beginning challenge the economic underpinning and time-line of the project and refer to earlier projects which were not delivered on time and certainly not at cost;
> Make certain that you have a comprehensive alternative
> best regards,
> 
> Cornie
> 
> 
> On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 1:18 PM, Bert Fabian <bert.fabian at cai-asia.org> wrote:
> Dear Roselle, 
> 
> I can imagine your frustration reading about these competing private-sector led proposals on road expansion aimed to alleviate traffic congestion like this Skyway proposals. There is another one - the Skybridge proposal by the MMDA over the Metro Manila esteros - and this promises to take 40% of vehicle traffic (private) from EDSA. Though, there are efforts to improve public transport - buses, jeepneys, tricycles and rail plus improving NMT access, it is clear that current efforts are not enough to really address the needs of commuters and pedestrians. Especially considering that about 70% of our passenger trips in Metro Manila are borne by public transport. 
> 
> Dear Cornie, Carlos, and Lloyd,  
> 
> Yes Cornie is right, civil society here can be quite strong if they want to be, and especially if there is some kind of consensus on what needs to be  done. Unfortunately, many civil society groups are mainly composed of the car-owning middle class who seems to be supporting these type of projects because it promises to make their trips much better. There are really not that many sustainable transport (PT + NMT) advocate groups (though growing steadily)..
> 
> It is a bit disappointing that years of lobbying for sustainable transport is being overrun because of successive changes of leadership in the Department of Transport, and now with this current PPP initiative of government to spur transport infrastructure investments and economic growth. As usual, proposals are more on the building/ expansion of roads. 
> 
> Of course, we're not taking this sitting down.. we and a few others are directly lobbying/ discussing with senior officials and starting to discuss directly with the private sector proponents (there is an ongoing New Mobility Project supported by the Rockefeller Foundation and I think this falls under their objectives as well). But I agree we need to have a more comprehensive public campaign/ dialogue and get our advocacy more in the media.. It would also extremely help if we can get statements (e.g. for news articles) from organizations like the ADB, WB and others, that these kind of solutions will not work and only aggravate the situation.
> 
> 
> Best regards, 
> Bert
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Cornie Huizenga <cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org> wrote:
> Hi Carlos,
> 
> good questions - key is obviously that there is a genuine public dialog and
> not a white-wash one.  How strong is the civil society in Manila, I would
> say quite strong if they want to be.  I leave it to the Manila based
> members of sustran to decide how strong they want to be on this one.  But
> personally I would say that this is something worth fighting for.  If a
> project of this magnitude would be implemented it will put its stamp on
> urban transport in Manila for years to come, and not in a good way.
> 
> Cornie
> 
> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 8:00 PM, Pardo <carlosfpardo at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I think both solutions are from the "normal world" and will not
> > necessarily apply. What may happen with the public dialogue is that it is
> > prepared, developed and then results are hidden very carefully. Then
> > project proponents will say "we had a public dialogue and the project will
> > move forward, now with civil society on board" - and it will be the same
> > project as before.
> >
> > That said, it may be that the dialogue is properly developed and external
> > support is sought to achieve grater neutrality in the process. If the media
> > cares at all, they could work as the ones reporting about what truly is
> > said during dialogues and real and public agreements can be reached. Does
> > Manila habe strong civil society - or at least one strong leader- that can
> > promote such dialogue? Will the media interest in supporting people instead
> > of infrastructure? Will any of the international institutions provide
> > support in accompannying the process?
> >
> > For those of you who can read Spanish, see eltiempo.com or
> > elespectador.com for the "user strikes" in transmilenio. They are
> > definitely interesting in the context of this discussion, especially due to
> > the role expected and played by civil society - and its legitimacy.
> >
> > Pardo
> >
> > Written from the unexpected outcome of Abulafia. Please excuse typos.
> >
> > On 1/03/2012, at 21:01, Cornie Huizenga <
> > cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Lloyd and others,
> > >
> > > In a normal world I think that Lloyd's approach could work.  I am not
> > > certain though whether Manila is a "normal"world. The danger that I would
> > > foresee is that private sector claims that they can do this without
> > > government support but that relatively soon there will be some set-backs
> > > which will make it necessary that the government bails out the project.
> > >
> > > I would call for a public dialog in which you explain that what Manila
> > > needs most is a mobility solution which works for all people and not just
> > > those who have cars. Why should Manila go for a solution which has proven
> > > in other places not to work.  Having a smoother flowing EDSA will not
> > > resolve congestion in other parts of Metro Manila. I would suggest that
> > > NGOs start an aggressive campaign to explain to the different
> > stakeholders
> > > (business, NGOs, local government) how the $ 600 million can be used in
> > an
> > > alternative manner to create a much more livable city.
> > >
> > > Cornie
> > >
> > > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Lloyd Wright <lwright at vivacities.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Yes, the proposal to build another road layer over EDSA Avenue in Manila
> > >> is indeed mind-boggling, especially when you consider there are
> > currently
> > >> segments already with three layers.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > http://business.inquirer.net/46659/skyway-proposal-%E2%80%98mind-boggling%E2%80%99-says-rival-firm
> > >>
> > >> However, I actually think there is an opportunity here for a sustainable
> > >> transport solution, that simultaneously allows for the civil works
> > >> companies to build their dreams.
> > >>
> > >> Let them build the Skyway on the condition that it is entirely a private
> > >> endeavor with zero contribution from public funds.  The toll amount and
> > >> concession length could be adjusted to whatever lets them profit.
> > >>
> > >> The other caveat is that the surface layer belongs to sustainable
> > >> transport with wide footpaths, cycle lanes, and dedicated bus lanes.
> >  Only
> > >> allow one lane for mixed traffic at the surface level, a lane that will
> > be
> > >> throttled by calming measures that give priority to the NMT and public
> > >> transport lanes.
> > >>
> > >> The most undesirable outcome would be building the Skyway with public
> > >> funds and simultaneously leaving the surface in the hands of cars, a
> > real
> > >> lose-lose with no equity or environmental benefits.
> > >>
> > >> Best regards,
> > >>
> > >> Lloyd
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+lwright=vivacities.org at list.jca.apc.org
> > [mailto:
> > >> sustran-discuss-bounces+lwright=vivacities.org at list.jca.apc.org] On
> > >> Behalf Of Roselle Leah K. Rivera
> > >> Sent: 02 March 2012 05:27
> > >> To: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> > >> Subject: [sustran] Skyway proposal ‘mind-boggling,’ says rival firm
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Here we go... 24 billion pesos versus 21 billion pesos equals ?
> > >> In the silence that follows, is it true? that "the road to hell is paved
> > >> with good intentions?"
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Skyway proposal ‘mind-boggling,’ says rival firm
> > >> Source: business.inquirer.net
> > >>
> > >> “Ambitious,” “incredible” and “mind-boggling.” This was how the group of
> > >> Manuel V. Pangilinan described claims by San Miguel Corp. (SMC)-backed
> > >> Citra Metro Manila Tollways Corp. (CMMTC) that it could build a highway
> > >> over busy Metro Manila streets at a lower cost.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>  -----------------------------------------------------
> > >>     "well-behaved women seldom make history."
> > >>                             -laurel thatcher ulrich Roselle Leah K.
> > >> Rivera Chairperson Department of Women and Development Studies College
> > of
> > >> Social Work and Community Development University of the Philippines
> > Diliman
> > >> Quezon City mobile  +639178011494
> > >>
> > >> Partner Producer/Host, Sikhay Kilos Radio Program Sa DZUP 1602, Kasali
> > Ka!
> > >> Matinong usapan para sa maunlad na bayan.
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> > radio
> > >> --------------------------------------------------------
> > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> > >>
> > >> ================================================================
> > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> > >> (the 'Global South').
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --------------------------------------------------------
> > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> > >>
> > >> ================================================================
> > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> > >> (the 'Global South').
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Cornie Huizenga
> > > Joint Convener
> > > Partnership on Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport
> > > Mobile: +86 13901949332
> > > cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org
> > > www.slocat.net
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> > >
> > > ================================================================
> > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> > (the 'Global South').
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Cornie Huizenga
> Joint Convener
> Partnership on Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport
> Mobile: +86 13901949332
> cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org
> www.slocat.net
> --------------------------------------------------------
> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> 
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South').
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Cornie Huizenga
> Joint Convener
> Partnership on Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport
> Mobile: +86 13901949332
> cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org
> www.slocat.net