[sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister

[Sujit Patwardhan]

1 May 2011


Hi Carlos,

One Lakh is: 100,000 (hundred thousand)
One Crore is: 10,000,000 (or 10 million)

Cornie is absolutely right.
--
Sujit





On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 12:40 AM, Pardo <carlosfpardo at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry for the ignorance, but I can't remember if 1 lakh is 10,000 Rs ... is
> it? And since we're at it, how much is 1 crore? It would be great if we
> could always give the small explanation for those who aren't familiar. This
> conversation is very useful for people outside India!
>
> Pardo
>
> Sent from Liliput-sized keyboard. Please excuse typos.
>
> On 30/04/2011, at 10:40, Lee Schipper <schipper at berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
> > Woah.  A bus seat is occupied by many more people per day and provides
> far more passenger-km than a car seat. And buses do provide standing room
> and take up less road space per passenger.
> > The Indian bus manufacturers figured out that a woman with two children
> and packages might have a hard time climbing up 1 metre on to a lorry-bed
> with seats, as buses were until less than a decade ago.  I credit the
> Swedish government's proposal to GIVE B'lore some Volvo lo floor buses a
> little more than ten years ago as providing the spark for the Indian
> version.  Oh yes National government insisted there be hefty tax on the
> Swedish buses and suddenly this "gift" was unaffordable. Some of this is
> recounted in my IEA book "Bus Systems for the future" still free at
> > Www.IEA.org
> >
> >
> > I photographed a TAta or Leyland lo-floor bus in Delhi in 2006, so surely
> one does not need to turn to Volvo. But let's not make a comparison just on
> cost per seat....
> >
> > And let's hope the bus lanes are car and two-wheeler free!
> >
> > Lee Schipper
> > Global Met Studies  UC Berkeley
> > Precourt En Eff Center Stanford
> >
> >
> >
> > On Apr 30, 2011, at 8:16, Dunu Roy <qadeeroy at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> You are right. The cost of the Volvo low-floor buses is exorbitant and
> bears no relation to production costs. The Tata/Leyland buses in Delhi are
> for 49 lakhs (non-AC) and 59 lakhs (AC). Even here, the CAG slammed the
> Corporation for buying buses at above the rates of Rs 43 lakhs and 51 lakhs
> respectively set by the Technical Committee. The chassis, it seems, costs
> only 15 lakhs, so if the body is built locally the expenses can be brought
> down significantly.
> >>
> >> On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 11:22 AM, ashok datar <datar.ashok at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> cost of bus and car per person
> >>
> >> Dear All,
> >> if we calculate the investment cost per seat in a car vs the same in a
> bus we get a disturbing picture
> >> If a Volvo bus costs a min of Rs. 70 lakhs for 40 seats
> >> it means the investment per seat is Rs. 1.75 lakhs
> >> on the other hand , popular cars such as Santro, Indica, Alto etc all
> cost   around Rs 3 to Rs. 4 lak rupees .
> >> that means the investment per seat would be Rs one lakh per seat
> >> why does it have to be so ?
> >> Earlier , the ordinary BEST used to cost only Rs. 11 lakhs to Rs. 18
> lakhs- obviously they  were very basic and the costs are up but in those
> days investment cost per seat in a bus was only Rs. 30 to 40000
> >> I think there is something radically wrong that the cost of a bus needs
> to be so high in India
> >> can we not provide good quality 40 seater buses under Rs. 40 lakhs
> >> and if a car air conditioning costs Rs. 25000, how much extra it should
> cost for a bus ?
> >> Ultimately in India , investment cost is more important than even the
> fuel cost
> >> let us think about this issue which can make a radical difference to the
> approach of people to buses and cars
> >> that is where no public transport can compete with two wheelers
> >> ashok datar
> >>
> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Sarath Guttikunda <
> sguttikunda at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Dear Lee and Co.,
> >>
> >> attached is a summary of the results published by Ministry of Urban
> Development in 2008-09 on the passenger travel trends and they tell a good
> story of where the cities are headed.
> >>
> >> Important messages on this page:
> >> As the cities grew (in size of population, which is proxy to the
> geographical size), access to the work places in less than 15 mins travel
> time decreases
> >> As the cities grew, the share of public transport in the form of bus
> transport (percent of passenger trips) increases - which is a good sign,
> meaning the cities are realizing the importance of promoting public
> transport and more efforts are headed that way as the cities expand
> >> As the cities grew, the share of non-motorized transport in the form of
> walking and biking (percent of passenger trips) decreases - which is the sad
> part of the equation, meaning the role of cars and SUVs is overtaking the
> need to promote NMT
> >> Lower the share of non-motorized transport in the city, lower the
> service index (% trips accessible in less than 15 mins travel time) and
> higher the congestion index, primarily due increase in the personal
> transport
> >> The access to public transport is growing, but not enough to support the
> travel demand growth in the big cities. Figure 3, top right panel, presents
> the share of passenger trips covered by the public transport against the
> population in the cities. The access to the public transport is high in the
> megacities, and expected to grow under the JNNURM funds. However, the lack
> of infrastructure in the bus manufacturing sector to supply the necessary
> >>
> >> With regards,
> >> Sarath
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dr. Sarath Guttikunda, New Delhi, India
> >> UrbanEmissions.Info | TED Fellow | +1(202)683-0937 (till June)
> >> http://www.dri.edu/sarath-guttikunda
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 11:22 PM, Lee Schipper <schipper at berkeley.edu>
> wrote:
> >> I will copy this to Sarath Guttikunda
> >> begin_of_the_skype_highlighting     end_of_the_skype_highlighting of
> >> Delhi. Can the Moderator admit him?
> >> he has some amazing MoUD data on accessibility and mobility (number of
> >> people traveling less than 15 minutes to work) for dozens of Indian
> >> cities, and the number taking mass transit. The largest cities in India
> >> fail..its a mess..the medium sized cities (like Pune) are doing a bit
> >> better, but the "small" cities (ahem, small compared to Delhi or Mumbai)
> >> offer more near=by access, consistent with what Ashok Dator said.
> >> --
> >> Lee Schipper, Ph.D
> >> Project Scientist
> >> Global Metropolitan Studies
> >> http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/
> >>
> >> Street/Mail Address:
> >> UC Berkeley Global Metropolitan Studies
> >> 1950 Addison 2nd floor, Berkeley.
> >> Berkeley CA 94704-2647
> >>
> >>
> >> +1 510 642 6889,
> >> FAX +1 510 642 6061
> >> Cell +1 202 262 7476
> >>
> >> skype: mrmeter
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> it is a very lively and serious debate on this new "toy" , may be good
> for
> >>> very select uses at airports etc but cant be a sensible option for
> other
> >>> major areas in any large and complex city.
> >>> in fact, we need to have overall restraint policy for the urbanization
> as
> >>> such all over
> >>> if we want to cope with congestion, pollution, energy and sustainabiliy
> >>> I think the cities need to degrow beyond a certain level
> >>> they must remain within ground level transportation - preferably
> bussing (
> >>> i.e. when u cant walk or bike )
> >>> hopefully for most worktrips and other regular trips for education as
> well
> >>> -
> >>> it should be walking or biking oriented and then the BRTS
> >>> and only in rare cases, taxies and hired personal cars for occasional
> uses
> >>> so that we go towards miniimizning private, individually owned cars and
> >>> provide more dense but low carbon impact and sustaibly green habitat
> >>> we cant have all comforts which are based on personal car and then try
> to
> >>> reject it
> >>> we need to work towards alternate design of living especially in
> >>> sustainable
> >>> manner as global availability of energy, food, water is going to be
> >>> liimited
> >>> and need to equitably available and transport is a crtical element in
> the
> >>> way we live especially in large urban societies based on exploitation
> of
> >>> rural pop which can also be more sustainabale and "urban" with new
> >>> techonlogies
> >>> can we think altogether differently - not too radically
> >>> ashok datar
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:13 PM, eric britton
> >>> <eric.britton at ecoplan.org>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> This is a nice lively discussion, and I thought it might add a bit of
> >>>> value
> >>>> if we posted it to World Streets (even if we are supposed to be closed
> >>>> as we
> >>>> seek financial support to keep going) and popped a poll in there for
> >>>> your
> >>>> voting pleasure. You will see the full story at
> >>>>
> http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/prt-proposal-for-delhi-convinces-chief-minister-but-does-it-convince-you-see-poll-results/
> >>>>
> >>>> Let's see what kind of consensus, divergence, trends if any we get
> here.
> >>>>
> >>>> What is more beautiful and encouraging than informed active citizens
> who
> >>>> make their voices heard.
> >>>>
> >>>> Vote!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> >>>> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> >>>>
> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> >>>> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the
> real
> >>>> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> >>>>
> >>>> ================================================================
> >>>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> >>>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> countries
> >>>> (the 'Global South').
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Ashok R.Datar
> >>> Mumbai Environmental Social Network
> >>> 20 Madhavi, Makarand Society, S.V.S.Marg, Mahim-400 016
> >>> 98676 65107/0222 444 9212 see our website : www.mesn.org
> >>>
> >>> * I hear, then I forget.  I see, then I remember. I do, then I
> >>> understand.*
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> >>> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> >>>
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------
> >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> >>> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the
> real
> >>> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> >>>
> >>> ================================================================
> >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> >>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> countries
> >>> (the 'Global South').
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ashok R.Datar
> >> Mumbai Environmental Social Network
> >> 20 Madhavi, Makarand Society, S.V.S.Marg, Mahim-400 016
> >> 98676 65107/0222 444 9212 see our website : www.mesn.org
> >>
> >> I hear, then I forget.  I see, then I remember. I do, then I understand.
> >>
> >>
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real
> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> >
> > ================================================================
> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> (the 'Global South').
> --------------------------------------------------------
> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real
> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
>
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> (the 'Global South').
>



-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
*“..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment
to destroy the city“*

Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel
Munich 1970

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Sujit Patwardhan
patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com
sujit at parisar.org <sujitjp at gmail.com>
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