[sustran] Re: No money for good PT or walk/bike infastructure?: India 'world's biggest arms buyer'

Pardo carlosfpardo at gmail.com
Thu Mar 17 11:08:07 JST 2011


I think both of our arguments were going the same way: every situation has its own solution, which may involve metro, brt or even other solutions. Sorry if the word "perfect" was misunderstood. I don't think I talked about corruption in my email, so I'm not sure why you're addressing this issue to me. Anyway, good discussion and hopefully it can become more constructive than destructive between everyone involved. 

Todd, thanks for generating this discussion, even if it started from such a way-off topic. 

Pardo

Written with my thumbs. Please excuse typos. 

On 16/03/2011, at 20:53, bruun at seas.upenn.edu wrote:

> 
> 
> Mr. Pardo
> 
> I don't think I ever said anything about a "perfect" solution. Every  
> analysis is about tradeoffs.
> 
> My understanding of cities like Sao Paulo is that both bus and metro  
> modes are overloaded. To expand BRT requires taking space from cars,  
> which means a fight with the affluent and powerful all too often. In  
> the meantime, things just get worse. In many places, there just isn't  
> the space at all without taking away housing. This is even harder yet  
> and more unjust than taking space from cars.
> 
> I certainly don't dispute that there might be corruption in the  
> promotion of rail projects, but this doesn't necessarily mean that the  
> concept of building a metro is bad.
> 
>  In most of our bigger cities, more BRT and metro lines are needed.  
> It isn't always one or the other.It really depends on the particular  
> situation.
> 
> Eric Bruun
> 
> 
> Quoting Carlosfelipe Pardo <carlosfpardo at gmail.com>:
> 
>> Nope. It's because you know when to promote metros and do so with technical
>> reasons. Compensation is when people just want the metro - period. No matter
>> what the needs of the city, they just want something big, shiny. You favor
>> them because you have analyzed a situation and have found that a metro is
>> the perfect solution.
>> 
>> Carlosfelipe Pardo.
>> 
>> On 15 March 2011 15:10, <bruun at seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Pardo
>>> 
>>> So the reason I sometimes favor metros isn't because I think that they
>>> serve a useful purpose
>>> but because I have to compensate for my deficiencies?
>>> 
>>> Eric Bruun
>>> 
>>> Quoting Pardo <carlosfpardo at gmail.com>:
>>> 
>>>> Adhiraj,
>>>> 
>>>> You forgpt to note the importance of Freudian compensation as a
>>>> factor in buying big shiny "toys" like expensive metros, and
>>>> people's tendency to believe that they will solve everyone's
>>>> transport problems (even when they live 10 kms away from the planned
>>>> metro line. Of course, it's even worse when they think that a
>>>> flyover being built will also solve everything, and even worse an
>>>> elevated highway. But, incredibly, the need for compensation in some
>>>> citizens and policynakers is stronger than their frontal lobe. Thus,
>>>> I would also find a strong link between these ideas and the choices
>>>> of where to spend money.
>>>> 
>>>> (and let's not get started about cars and psychoanalysis!)
>>>> 
>>>> Pardo
>>>> 
>>>> Written with my thumbs. Please excuse typos.
>>>> 
>>>> On 15/03/2011, at 4:58, Dr Adhiraj Joglekar
>>>> <adhiraj.joglekar at googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I do not think its off topic. I have always held a view that monies are
>>>>> finite and how its used has to be prioritised based on needs assessment
>>>>> across sectors. Should money be spent on a metro when basic healthcare
>>> is
>>>>> absent? My answer is NO.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Is the semantics anti-India? Really depends on whether we remain married
>>> to
>>>>> history and paranoia thereof. More importantly which part of our
>>> faculties
>>>>> is at play? Emotive yet primitive survial of fittest brain or conscious
>>>>> frontal lobe?
>>>>> 
>>>>> While I risk digressing, its primitive structures rules by prevailing
>>>>> emotive background that largely drives individuals and masses. This of
>>>>> course affects us as emotions relating probable war run high and we
>>> respond
>>>>> to fear and anger. But the same structures are taken by hedonistic
>>>>> tendencies where posh & big seems better. No wonder how easy it is to
>>> get
>>>>> masses to align with glamorous metro than a basic bus based transport
>>>>> system.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Of course there is always the slim chance that conscious but corrupt
>>> ideas
>>>>> are in play in the most singular, clinical and calculated manner.
>>> Businesses
>>>>> have to thrive and forces are at play to ensure big spends - metro is an
>>>>> example just as the industry that depends on actual or feared wars. Why
>>>>> would then any one care if there were footpaths? In fact the lack of
>>> such
>>>>> basics points to the dance of the psychological dynamic I attempt to
>>>>> describe above.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> 
>>>>> Adhiraj
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 15 March 2011 08:11, Sujit Patwardhan <patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thank you Rutul for your timely intervention on this.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My problem with Tom's email is not so much its content but the tone
>>> which
>>>>>> can be interpreted (I'm sure unjustly) as anti-India. If one starts
>>> talking
>>>>>> about expenditure on arms I can write volumes on the US and USSR and UK
>>> and
>>>>>> France and many other countries that could use the money on health,
>>>>>> education, the environment and so on... and now China and India are
>>> also
>>>>>> joining their ranks, but I sincerely believe that bulk of the criticism
>>>>>> against Government's spending on the armaments industry should come
>>> from
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> citizens themselves (where citizens have the democratic space to do
>>> so). I
>>>>>> also admit that as citizens we (all of us, the communists included) are
>>> not
>>>>>> doing enough in this area.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Having said that-- in context of Public Transport and NMT facilities I
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> all (our) cities have enough money which is presently being spent on
>>> the
>>>>>> wrong projects ones that will basically facilitate (even fuel) greater
>>> use
>>>>>> of personal auto vehicles. As Rutul has points out, even with
>>> substantial
>>>>>> amounts made available under the various urban renewal schemes, a
>>>>>> favourable
>>>>>> National Urban Transport Policy, insistence on preparation of City
>>> Mobility
>>>>>> Plans before release of funds from the central Govt to the states and
>>>>>> cities
>>>>>> etc etc, we see PT and NMT schemes conspicuous by their absence. This
>>> is
>>>>>> also being pointed out by many NGOs and independent experts.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I feel the reason for this is the absence of proper monitoring and
>>>>>> regulatory systems that need to be in place. There is evidence that
>>>>>> presently this is being formulated by the central government and it may
>>>>>> start functioning soon. However this should have been done at least 5
>>> years
>>>>>> back.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Sujit
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Rutul Joshi <joshirutul at yahoo.co.in
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Why Off-topic? Would anyone care to explain?  (Before anyone label me,
>>> I
>>>>>>> must add that I am an Indian but not a communist)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> However, this view - money for weapons but not for sustainable
>>> transport
>>>>>> -
>>>>>>> might be a bit naive.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There is a lot of money with cities, states etc (400 million $ annual
>>>>>>> budget of a 5 million plus city). There is a policy in place (National
>>>>>> Urban
>>>>>>> Transport Policy)... there is a program to implement this policy
>>> (JNNURM
>>>>>> now
>>>>>>> 'new' 'improved' JnNRUM)...there are plans (comprehensive mobility
>>> plans
>>>>>> -
>>>>>>> CMPs) then why is it so that even straight-forward projects like
>>> building
>>>>>>> footpaths everywhere do not take off? Would anyone care to explain?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Rutul
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>> From: Cornie Huizenga <cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org>
>>>>>>> To: eric britton <eric.britton at ecoplan.org>
>>>>>>> Cc: Asia and the Pacific sustainable transport <
>>>>>>> sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, 15 March 2011 6:40 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: No money for good PT or walk/bike
>>>>>>> infastructure?: India 'world's biggest arms buyer'
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Eric,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I fully agree!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cornie
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 4:11 AM, eric britton <
>>> eric.britton at ecoplan.org
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You are off topic Todd. Please.  Eric Britton
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
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>>>>>> countries
>>>>>>>> (the 'Global South').
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Cornie Huizenga
>>>>>>> Joint Convener
>>>>>>> Partnership on Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport
>>>>>>> Mobile: +86 13901949332
>>>>>>> cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org
>>>>>>> www.slocat.net
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
>>> countries
>>>>>>> (the 'Global South').
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> *?..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment
>>>>>> to destroy the city?*
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel
>>>>>> Munich 1970
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sujit Patwardhan
>>>>>> patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com
>>>>>> sujit at parisar.org <sujitjp at gmail.com>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India
>>>>>> Tel: +91 20 25537955
>>>>>> Cell: +91 98220 26627
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Parisar: www.parisar.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
>>> countries
>>>>>> (the 'Global South').
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>>>>> countries (the 'Global South').
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>> 
> 
> 
> 
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