[sustran] Re: PT DATA
Dal Maluf
dalmaluf at yahoo.com
Wed Mar 16 21:00:42 JST 2011
Data follows attached, as the email didn't show it properly...
Best regards,
Adalberto
--- Em qua, 16/3/11, Dal Maluf <dalmaluf at yahoo.com> escreveu:
De: Dal Maluf <dalmaluf at yahoo.com>
Assunto: [sustran] Re: No money for good PT or walk/bike infastructure?: India 'world's biggest arms buyer'
Para: bruun at seas.upenn.edu, "Carlosfelipe Pardo" <carlosfpardo at gmail.com>
Cc: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
Data: Quarta-feira, 16 de Março de 2011, 8:51
Hello Eric and Carlos,
Here in Brazil, we also have these "shiny toy" desire deep inside most people’s minds to invest more (and only) on Subways as the best solution for public transportation, but the forces behind that "advocacy" process (large construction firms, financing campaigns, corruption - see the Alstom Case w SP Metro, etc) are much stronger and we can't forget about them when we consider these complex "advocacy" realities, besides the fact that "street-level bureaucracy" which here are made of Metro employees running the show for transportation (they even run the Bus Agency until some months ago).
I helped a large magazine in Brazil to gather information on public transportation, comparing the amount of users in BUS x METRO in key Cities around Latin America, to compare with London and Delhi, that will be issued next week, to compare teh amount of investments in comparison to the amount of people they could benefit.
My concerns are related to this “unchangeable priority" to invest 95% of the "public transportation resources" in the expansion of the subways, while majority of people are still in the buses (or walking/biking), therefore, "investing" the resources only on the subways, wouldn't solve our problems, which would leave the bus guys with nothing but increase in the fare. We haven't been able to keep young guys at buses in Brazil. They are the ones buying motorbikes and small cars...
Every 10 years, we have 10 million extra trips in Sao Paulo. Each subway line cost around US$ 200 million/km, and they are taking almost 10 years to carry less than 30, 40% of the expected amount of users, therefore, they can't even receive the among of extra passengers that these 35% of public transportation users would be to remain the same modal share... That's why private cars and motorbikes are taking over... That’s why the trend is not looking good for us.
Sao Paulo was luck that we constructed 123 kms of "open" BRTs between 2003/2006 (US$ 2 million/km), therefore, we went from 6 to 10 million users on the City Bus, however, these last two governments are back to the old philosophy (same guys) of investing exclusively in subways, therefore, traffic jams are growing each year...
We are investing exclusively in subways, exclusively since 1970 to have around 70kms of lines, plus 260kms of trains and it hasn’t solve the problem at all! London has 1500kms of metro/rail lines and more people on buses, or Mexico City here in Latam… Is it possible that Sao Paulo have 400kms of subways? Come on… It would need 10 generations to pay that bill…
I used to support subways a lot, believe me, but now I realized that I had "fight" against the subways mentality in order to make the case for BRTs here... There is very little money for investing in public transportation here, therefore, we have to "fight" for these money among all transportation technologies... Subways are good, but only after we have constructed all of all BRT lines... that's my core believe...
Please see the data...
% No Motorized Trips
(walking or bike)
% Private Cars
% Public Transportation
São Paulo
33,94%
27,25%
36,52%
Rio de Janeiro
37,09%
14,91%
46,64%
Cidade do México
2,10%
20,70%
71%
Bogotá
17,30%
14,70%
63,50%
Delhi
14,70%
13,90%
46%
Londres
25%
41%
33%
% Distribution inside the public transport. mode
Other
Bus + Schools Bus + Charters
Subway + Urban Train + Boat
Taxi + Motorbike + Rickshaw + Others
Sao Paulo
78%
22%
2,29%
Rio de Janeiro
92%
8%
1,35%
Cidade do Mexico
80,3
19,70%
6,20%
Bogota
100,00%
0%
4,40%
Delhi
46,30%
10%
25%
Londres
68%
32%
1%
Sources:
OD Metro 2007
Plano Diretor de Transporte Urbano da RMRJ. Pesquisa Origem Destino
Encuesta Origen-Destino2007 - IGECEN - STRAVI
Plan Maestro de Movilid - Volume 3 - pg 11. Prefeitura de Bogota
RITES Report (2008)
Department for Transport statistics (2008/2009) and Travel in London, Report 3, fig. 2.5 (2009/2010)
--- Em ter, 15/3/11, Carlosfelipe Pardo <carlosfpardo at gmail.com> escreveu:
De: Carlosfelipe Pardo <carlosfpardo at gmail.com>
Assunto: [sustran] Re: No money for good PT or walk/bike infastructure?: India 'world's biggest arms buyer'
Para: bruun at seas.upenn.edu
Cc: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
Data: Terça-feira, 15 de Março de 2011, 19:15
Nope. It's because you know when to promote metros and do so with technical
reasons. Compensation is when people just want the metro - period. No matter
what the needs of the city, they just want something big, shiny. You favor
them because you have analyzed a situation and have found that a metro is
the perfect solution.
Carlosfelipe Pardo.
On 15 March 2011 15:10, <bruun at seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
> Pardo
>
> So the reason I sometimes favor metros isn't because I think that they
> serve a useful purpose
> but because I have to compensate for my deficiencies?
>
> Eric Bruun
>
> Quoting Pardo <carlosfpardo at gmail.com>:
>
> > Adhiraj,
> >
> > You forgpt to note the importance of Freudian compensation as a
> > factor in buying big shiny "toys" like expensive metros, and
> > people's tendency to believe that they will solve everyone's
> > transport problems (even when they live 10 kms away from the planned
> > metro line. Of course, it's even worse when they think that a
> > flyover being built will also solve everything, and even worse an
> > elevated highway. But, incredibly, the need for compensation in some
> > citizens and policynakers is stronger than their frontal lobe. Thus,
> > I would also find a strong link between these ideas and the choices
> > of where to spend money.
> >
> > (and let's not get started about cars and psychoanalysis!)
> >
> > Pardo
> >
> > Written with my thumbs. Please excuse typos.
> >
> > On 15/03/2011, at 4:58, Dr Adhiraj Joglekar
> > <adhiraj.joglekar at googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I do not think its off topic. I have always held a view that monies are
> >> finite and how its used has to be prioritised based on needs assessment
> >> across sectors. Should money be spent on a metro when basic healthcare
> is
> >> absent? My answer is NO.
> >>
> >> Is the semantics anti-India? Really depends on whether we remain married
> to
> >> history and paranoia thereof. More importantly which part of our
> faculties
> >> is at play? Emotive yet primitive survial of fittest brain or conscious
> >> frontal lobe?
> >>
> >> While I risk digressing, its primitive structures rules by prevailing
> >> emotive background that largely drives individuals and masses. This of
> >> course affects us as emotions relating probable war run high and we
> respond
> >> to fear and anger. But the same structures are taken by hedonistic
> >> tendencies where posh & big seems better. No wonder how easy it is to
> get
> >> masses to align with glamorous metro than a basic bus based transport
> >> system.
> >>
> >> Of course there is always the slim chance that conscious but corrupt
> ideas
> >> are in play in the most singular, clinical and calculated manner.
> Businesses
> >> have to thrive and forces are at play to ensure big spends - metro is an
> >> example just as the industry that depends on actual or feared wars. Why
> >> would then any one care if there were footpaths? In fact the lack of
> such
> >> basics points to the dance of the psychological dynamic I attempt to
> >> describe above.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Adhiraj
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 15 March 2011 08:11, Sujit Patwardhan <patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thank you Rutul for your timely intervention on this.
> >>>
> >>> My problem with Tom's email is not so much its content but the tone
> which
> >>> can be interpreted (I'm sure unjustly) as anti-India. If one starts
> talking
> >>> about expenditure on arms I can write volumes on the US and USSR and UK
> and
> >>> France and many other countries that could use the money on health,
> >>> education, the environment and so on... and now China and India are
> also
> >>> joining their ranks, but I sincerely believe that bulk of the criticism
> >>> against Government's spending on the armaments industry should come
> from
> >>> the
> >>> citizens themselves (where citizens have the democratic space to do
> so). I
> >>> also admit that as citizens we (all of us, the communists included) are
> not
> >>> doing enough in this area.
> >>>
> >>> Having said that-- in context of Public Transport and NMT facilities I
> >>> think
> >>> all (our) cities have enough money which is presently being spent on
> the
> >>> wrong projects ones that will basically facilitate (even fuel) greater
> use
> >>> of personal auto vehicles. As Rutul has points out, even with
> substantial
> >>> amounts made available under the various urban renewal schemes, a
> >>> favourable
> >>> National Urban Transport Policy, insistence on preparation of City
> Mobility
> >>> Plans before release of funds from the central Govt to the states and
> >>> cities
> >>> etc etc, we see PT and NMT schemes conspicuous by their absence. This
> is
> >>> also being pointed out by many NGOs and independent experts.
> >>>
> >>> I feel the reason for this is the absence of proper monitoring and
> >>> regulatory systems that need to be in place. There is evidence that
> >>> presently this is being formulated by the central government and it may
> >>> start functioning soon. However this should have been done at least 5
> years
> >>> back.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Sujit
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Rutul Joshi <joshirutul at yahoo.co.in
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Why Off-topic? Would anyone care to explain? (Before anyone label me,
> I
> >>>> must add that I am an Indian but not a communist)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> However, this view - money for weapons but not for sustainable
> transport
> >>> -
> >>>> might be a bit naive.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> There is a lot of money with cities, states etc (400 million $ annual
> >>>> budget of a 5 million plus city). There is a policy in place (National
> >>> Urban
> >>>> Transport Policy)... there is a program to implement this policy
> (JNNURM
> >>> now
> >>>> 'new' 'improved' JnNRUM)...there are plans (comprehensive mobility
> plans
> >>> -
> >>>> CMPs) then why is it so that even straight-forward projects like
> building
> >>>> footpaths everywhere do not take off? Would anyone care to explain?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Rutul
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ________________________________
> >>>> From: Cornie Huizenga <cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org>
> >>>> To: eric britton <eric.britton at ecoplan.org>
> >>>> Cc: Asia and the Pacific sustainable transport <
> >>>> sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 15 March 2011 6:40 AM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: No money for good PT or walk/bike
> >>>> infastructure?: India 'world's biggest arms buyer'
> >>>>
> >>>> Eric,
> >>>>
> >>>> I fully agree!
> >>>>
> >>>> Cornie
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 4:11 AM, eric britton <
> eric.britton at ecoplan.org
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> You are off topic Todd. Please. Eric Britton
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> >>>>> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> >>>>> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the
> >>> real
> >>>>> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ================================================================
> >>>>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> >>>>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> >>> countries
> >>>>> (the 'Global South').
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Cornie Huizenga
> >>>> Joint Convener
> >>>> Partnership on Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport
> >>>> Mobile: +86 13901949332
> >>>> cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org
> >>>> www.slocat.net
> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> >>>> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> >>>>
> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------
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> real
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> >>>>
> >>>> ================================================================
> >>>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> >>>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> countries
> >>>> (the 'Global South').
> >>>>
> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> >>>> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> >>>>
> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------
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> real
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> >>>>
> >>>> ================================================================
> >>>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> >>>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> countries
> >>>> (the 'Global South').
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> *?..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment
> >>> to destroy the city?*
> >>>
> >>> Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel
> >>> Munich 1970
> >>>
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Sujit Patwardhan
> >>> patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com
> >>> sujit at parisar.org <sujitjp at gmail.com>
> >>>
> >>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India
> >>> Tel: +91 20 25537955
> >>> Cell: +91 98220 26627
> >>>
> >>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> Parisar: www.parisar.org
> >>>
> >>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> >>> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> >>>
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------
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> >>> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the
> real
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> >>>
> >>> ================================================================
> >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> >>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> countries
> >>> (the 'Global South').
> >>>
> >> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> >>
> >> --------------------------------------------------------
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> >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> >> countries (the 'Global South').
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
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> >
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> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> > countries (the 'Global South').
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
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>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> ================================================================
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> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> (the 'Global South').
>
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