[sustran] Re: No money for good PT or walk/bike infastructure?: India 'world's biggest arms buyer'

[Dr Adhiraj Joglekar]

Whether it is a dimunitive figure of say 1 million or 10 million for each
financial year the budget is still finite. Have we not seen enough to accept
Governments or individuals can't borrow till the end of the world?

Everything else you share is hard to make full sense of as there are several
paradoxes within each thread (para). Perhaps what you suggest is a need for
balance between conflicting forces.

Adhiraj




On 15 March 2011 23:49, Karthik Rao-Cavale <krc12353 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am going to take a slightly different view on this.
>
> 1) The amount of money available is not finite. Governments, especially
> national governments, have the choice of passing conservative budgets or
> inflationary budgets. Of course, inflationary budgets will come back to
> bite
> us in the future, so as a nation, India needs to decide how much of our
> current spending should we burden our next generations with. Second, of
> course, is the question of how all the money will be spent. We might
> decide,
> like Japan, to have little expenditure on national defence and focus on
> development (I do respect the resilience that country has shown in the face
> of several consecutive disasters), but we might end up paying a high price
> for that. So clearly we are talking about explicitly national priorities.
>
> 2) That said, even the question of spending on footpaths versus spending on
> elevated roads in Pune is a question of priorities, albeit local
> priorities.
> These issues should be resolved within local democratic spaces, just as
> issues regarding central government budgets should be decided within
> national democratic spaces. Does that mean we cannot discuss the question
> of
> footpaths versus elevated roads in Pune in this forum or any forum that
> includes people from outside Pune?
>
> 3) One might say that other people are also affected by the why, what and
> how much of Pune's transportation spending, because of fiscal deficits and
> climate change and everything else. Correct. But looking at it that way,
> India's defence spending does affect a host of countries, and an
> inflationary budget in India causes inflation not just in India but
> throughout the world! If we are all inter-connected, why do we place so
> much
> value by national sovereignty?
>
> 4) One might argue that sustran is a community of "experts", people who use
> instrumental rationality to further goals that society puts forward. That
> is
> quite apparently a weak argument. We at sustrans have very openly adopted
> the roles of advocates - advocates for the environment and the poor and
> everyone we can possibly advocate for while being consistent in our demand
> for "sustainable" transport. While this is not necessarily a bad thing, it
> does place us in the position where we are inserting our voices in local
> decision-making processes and trying to influence the decisions being
> arrived at. We need to be aware of that.
>
> 5) Those who feel queasy discussing India's defence policy also need to
> realize that in current technological circumstances, truly democratic
> decision-making is by nature of a transparent sort. In other words, a
> national democratic space with a free press and access to information
> necessarily means that foreigners will be able to comment on what India
> ought to do. This is inevitable, and developed countries live with this
> prospect quite cheerfully. What is needed is that a) democratic
> institutions
> in India (or other developing countries) be resilient enough to keep out
> voices that speak to further interests that India does not share; and b)
> non-Indians have the restraint to not interfere unduly in Indian democratic
> spaces.
>
> 6) The important learning for us here at Sustrans is that these two
> conditions hold true not just for national democratic spaces but also for
> local democratic spaces. Too often one finds organizations funded by
> foreign
> donors inserting their voices in local democratic decision-making. As I
> said, this by itself need not be a problem if it is done in a responsible
> way. But oftentimes the intrusion is problematic, because the interests
> being served are not those of the local citizens. For instance, the
> over-emphasis on greenhouse gas reduction in India's transportation (or
> that
> of any other medium-income/low-income country) strikes me as a particularly
> problematic feature of some of the work done under the guise of sustainable
> transportation. It is furthermore problematic because local democratic
> institutions are not as resilient as national institutions to deal with the
> pressure they get from these donor-funded organizations. We desperately
> need
> outside voices to be very aware of their roles as organizations that do not
> necessarily share local values and aspirations. That said, if local
> governments are acting in ways obviously detrimental to the majority of
> their own constituents, I do recognize our moral duty to advocate for a
> different approach. (Advocacy for footpaths in Pune would fall under that
> criteria)
>
> These points are clearly applicable not only to India, but also to Columbia
> and Indonesia and Nigeria and every other country of the global south. I
> applaud the restraint shown by the leading members of sustrans (and frankly
> think that they are being too cautious, given that India's national
> government is too weighty to listen to us mavericks in sustrans) but I
> would
> like to see some of that constraint rub off into our interactions with
> local
> democracies. This is especially important to us, because many local
> democratic institutions (whose work we at Sustrans are most concerned with)
> tend to be extraordinarily weak, and we sometimes weaken them further
> through our interference. But we might also work to strengthen local
> democracy, and we should realize that part of our mandate is precisely to
> do
> so.
>
> Regards,
> karthik
>
> On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Sujit Patwardhan <
>  patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thank you Rutul for your timely intervention on this.
> >
> > My problem with Tom's email is not so much its content but the tone which
> > can be interpreted (I'm sure unjustly) as anti-India. If one starts
> talking
> > about expenditure on arms I can write volumes on the US and USSR and UK
> and
> > France and many other countries that could use the money on health,
> > education, the environment and so on... and now China and India are also
> > joining their ranks, but I sincerely believe that bulk of the criticism
> > against Government's spending on the armaments industry should come from
> > the
> > citizens themselves (where citizens have the democratic space to do so).
> I
> > also admit that as citizens we (all of us, the communists included) are
> not
> > doing enough in this area.
> >
> > Having said that-- in context of Public Transport and NMT facilities I
> > think
> > all (our) cities have enough money which is presently being spent on the
> > wrong projects ones that will basically facilitate (even fuel) greater
> use
> > of personal auto vehicles. As Rutul has points out, even with substantial
> > amounts made available under the various urban renewal schemes, a
> > favourable
> > National Urban Transport Policy, insistence on preparation of City
> Mobility
> > Plans before release of funds from the central Govt to the states and
> > cities
> > etc etc, we see PT and NMT schemes conspicuous by their absence. This is
> > also being pointed out by many NGOs and independent experts.
> >
> > I feel the reason for this is the absence of proper monitoring and
> > regulatory systems that need to be in place. There is evidence that
> > presently this is being formulated by the central government and it may
> > start functioning soon. However this should have been done at least 5
> years
> > back.
> >
> > --
> > Sujit
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Rutul Joshi <joshirutul at yahoo.co.in
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Why Off-topic? Would anyone care to explain?  (Before anyone label me,
> I
> > > must add that I am an Indian but not a communist)
> > >
> > >
> > > However, this view - money for weapons but not for sustainable
> transport
> > -
> > > might be a bit naive.
> > >
> > >
> > > There is a lot of money with cities, states etc (400 million $ annual
> > > budget of a 5 million plus city). There is a policy in place (National
> > Urban
> > > Transport Policy)... there is a program to implement this policy
> (JNNURM
> > now
> > > 'new' 'improved' JnNRUM)...there are plans (comprehensive mobility
> plans
> > -
> > > CMPs) then why is it so that even straight-forward projects like
> building
> > > footpaths everywhere do not take off? Would anyone care to explain?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rutul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Cornie Huizenga <cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org>
> > > To: eric britton <eric.britton at ecoplan.org>
> > > Cc: Asia and the Pacific sustainable transport <
> > > sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 15 March 2011 6:40 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: No money for good PT or walk/bike
> > > infastructure?: India 'world's biggest arms buyer'
> > >
> > > Eric,
> > >
> > > I fully agree!
> > >
> > > Cornie
> > >
> > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 4:11 AM, eric britton <
> eric.britton at ecoplan.org
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > You are off topic Todd. Please.  Eric Britton
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
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> > > > (the 'Global South').
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Cornie Huizenga
> > > Joint Convener
> > > Partnership on Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport
> > > Mobile: +86 13901949332
> > > cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org
> > > www.slocat.net
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
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> > > (the 'Global South').
> > >
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> > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> countries
> > > (the 'Global South').
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *“..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment
> > to destroy the city“*
> >
> > Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel
> > Munich 1970
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Sujit Patwardhan
> > patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com
> > sujit at parisar.org <sujitjp at gmail.com>
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > Cell: +91 98220 26627
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
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>