[sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in
the wrongdirection
bruun at seas.upenn.edu
bruun at seas.upenn.edu
Thu Feb 10 04:03:36 JST 2011
Lee
I agree with you about costs. When the lower speed system is
dilapidated or otherwise inadequate
it doesn't seem appropriate to spend money on HSR first.
Also, you lucked out or you took Acela Regional instead of Acela
Express if your fare was "reasonable."
Walk-up fares on Acela Express can be as much as $130 US for 90 miles
(130 kms) between NYC and Philadelphia. Walk up fares for even the
Acela Regional are typically $90 US. Walk up fares between
Philadelphia and Wash DC are between $90 and $176 for 140 miless (210
kms). Fares of $1 per kilometer are indeed amongst the highest in the
world (not including mountain tourism trains and such).
Eric
Quoting Lee Schipper <schipper at wri.org>:
> HSR between Brussels and Paris knocked out all bout 1 flight each way a
> day. And has clearly deterred growth in air, car travel between many
> city pairs in Europe, but has also induced travel.
>
> The potential advantages for Asia is HSR could build travel on the
> ground BEFORE air travel becomes hopelessly congested.
>
>
>
> The bad news is we're talking great cost. Also success in many
> countries was boosted by 1) high road fuel prices 2) tolls on intercity
> roads 3) initially low car ownership, i.e., starting early and 4) little
> or no air travel competition. India has 3) but only some long
> distance roads are tolled (ex Mumbai-Pune). Diesel prices are still
> relatively low. Above all, however, one has to recognize that HSR will
> promote longer distance travel than otherwise, which is a mixed
> blessing.
>
>
>
> "All aboard"? I road Acela (our medium speed train) from Philadelphia to
> Washington today, had power and wi-fi, very comfortable. The X2000 in
> Sweden is similar. Neither are the fastest nor most expensive, both work
> well. Why not spend $$ in Asia making intercity rail at less than
> breathtaking speeds work well?
>
>
>
> Lee
>
>
>
> From: Ashok Sreenivas [mailto:ashok.sreenivas at gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 7:19 PM
> To: UTSG Mailing List (Z UTSG Mailing List -); Global 'South'
> Sustainable Transport
> Cc: Lee Schipper
> Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in the
> wrongdirection
>
>
>
> In the context of countries like India and China, does HSR make sense as
> an alternative, not to car travel, but to air travel. Is there evidence
> that HSR can actually replace, say, short haul flights of an hour or two
> (particularly if getting to and from the airport, and associated
> security checks in a country like India add a good 3-4 hours overhead to
> the actual flying time)? If so, it may be worth considering since
> aviation emissions in India grew at a whopping ~15% p.a. before the
> recession hit, in comparison with total transport emissions growing at
> about 5-6%. Particularly since I believe (though don't know enough) that
> HSR will be easily cost-competitive with air. Will be happy to know your
> thoughts and for any references that may help.
>
> Lee: Request you to also send the TRB paper you referred to.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Ashok
>
> --
> Ashok Sreenivas
> Prayas Energy Group <http://www.prayaspune.org/peg> and Parisar
> <http://www.parisar.org>
>
>
> On 9/02/2011 6:54 AM, Sudhir wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I would instead ask can asians afford it ? Many Asian countries are
> joining
> the HSR bandwagon after China with Vietnam ( there is good opposition)
> and
> India making aggressive plans. Should Asian countries think about HSR
> for
> future or rather plan and have a decent heavy rail system which provides
> safe, comfortable and cheap travel? Do we have any literature for
> developing
> countries on economic viability of such projects as such?
>
> See
> http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2011/01/12/high-speed-rail-to-connect
> -nine-south-china-cities.html
> http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/news/330126,rejecting-high-speed-rail
> -plan.html
> http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/13/vietnam-looks-to-fund-56-b
> illion-high-speed-system-between-hanoi-and-ho-chi-minh-city/
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4843889.cms
>
> regards
> Sudhir
>
>
> On 9 February 2011 02:53, Lee Schipper <schipper at wri.org>
> <mailto:schipper at wri.org> wrote:
>
>
> At UC we have looked at the CO2 impacts of HSR in the US. Simple
> result-- modest savings in those corridors where HSR makes sense
> (and
> I'll leave that question there), provided trains are moderately
> to very
> full and electricity is not all coal fired. Remember that in the
> time
> frame (2030) we expect other modes to be less carbon intensive.
>
> On the whole the impact ins SMALL because so little of total
> travel is
> in the 100-1000 km range in dense corridors. And while the CO2
> savings
> are reassuring, they do not constitute justification for HSR,
> rather
> just a small cobenefit.
>
> The paper is in 2011 TRB and will soon be on the ORNL web site
> where
> energy-committee sponsored sessions are exhibited. Happy to send
> the
> pdf.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org
>
> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org] On
> Behalf Of Walter Hook
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:44 AM
> To: bruun at seas.upenn.edu
> Cc: UTSG Mailing List (Z UTSG Mailing List -); Global 'South'
> Sustainable Transport
> Subject: [sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in
> the
> wrongdirection
>
> thanks for sharing this. getting a lot of questions about the
> US high
> speed rail proposals/discussions and don't yet have a firm
> opinion on
> them. one or two corridors are a maybe, i would say, assuming a
> new gas
> tax or carbon
> tax could pay for them, but this is far from likely. be good
> to get a
> discussion going on this in the US context as well. I am
> starting to
> think about combining intercity and commuter longer distance
> express bus
> services with downtown bus lanes and HOV lanes, as a possible
> alternative to high speed rail. If there were HOV/bus lanes
> throughout
> NYC and down the NJ Turnpike, its likely you could make it NY to
> DC on
> an express bus in a time competitive to rail. These private
> Chinatown
> based buses in New York are charging $25 for NY to DC or Boston,
> or even
> less, you book on line, and they have high speed internet, etc,
> compared
> to well over $100 for the rail service. In the US, once you get
> off the
> train, you are unlikely to be anywhere near where you plan to
> go,
> particularly once you are outside of NYC.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:50 PM, <bruun at seas.upenn.edu>
> <mailto:bruun at seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Eric Britton:
>
> Thanks for posting this one.
>
> I wholeheartedly agree with John Whitelegg that the
> question of
> financing versus who will use HSR needs to be addressed,
> not just in
> the UK, but anywhere. We have the same issue right now
> in the
> Northeast Corridor of the US. Would it be fair to use
> general revenues
>
>
>
> to build an even faster system that only business
> travelers and the
> wealthy can afford to use? This is already the case with
> the moderate
> speed Acela Express having as it does per-unit-distance
> fares amongst
> the highest in the world. Indeed, with fares as high as
> they are and
> the limited capacity offered, there are few
> environmental benefits of
> taking cars off the road, either. Thus, I can't see why
> the general
> public should subsidize it any more than they should pay
> to build an
> airline and airports.
>
> Eric Bruun
>
>
>
> Quoting eric britton <eric.britton at ecoplan.org>
> <mailto:eric.britton at ecoplan.org> :
>
>
> I would like to invite your attention and your
> reactions to this
> piece that appears in today's World Streets.
> Your participation
> and views are invited for a follow-up piece , as
> you will see in the
>
>
>
> last section of the article.
>
>
>
>
> UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in the wrong
> direction <
>
>
> http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-
> very-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/
>
>
>
>
> In the field of transport, no matter how
> straight-forward the issues
> may seem to be to the busy citizen, merchant,
> reporter or policy
> maker, when it comes to making wise policy it
> really does take a
> certain level of time and attention to come to
> grips with the
> underlying issues and priorities that shape the
> outcomes. The big
> problem encumbering the mobility issues of our
> new century is that
> just about everything turns out upon study to be
> unobligingly
> complex, interdependent, complicated and time
> lagged ? no matter how
> simple it may appear to be on the surface. In
> the article that
> follows, the principle author, John Whitelegg,
> has a go at a lot of
> the too-easy thinking that is the main currency
> of the High Speed
> Rail discussions in places like Britain and the
> US, where the only
> experience with these technologies and
> operations has been that of a
> time-lagged dream machine. Let?s embrace a bit
> of complexity here. .
> . .
>
> - - - > Full text here at
>
>
>
>
>
> http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-ve
>
> ry-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/<http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/0
> 2/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-very-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/>
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> --
>
> Walter Hook
> Executive Director
> Institute for Transportation and Development Policy
> 9 East 19th Street, 7th Floor
> New York, NY 10003
> 1-212-629-8001
> www.itdp.org
>
> Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide.
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> countries
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