[sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast inthe wrongdirection
ashok datar
datar.ashok at gmail.com
Wed Feb 9 19:48:30 JST 2011
I think it is absoluely sensible to develop low cost medium speed ie.150/
200 km/hr speed using low cost tech to provide high volume coridors which
can offer trains at every 10/15 min - some freight and some passegers
between major cities not only to compete with air but also highways to save
time and fuel
it can be pro environ/economy long term sustainable alternative.
ashok datar
On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 9:39 AM, Lee Schipper <schipper at wri.org> wrote:
> This comes a relatively simple question: If you had $US10BN to spend,
> how could you enhance transport welfare the most? Probablyt by upgrading
> all the passenger corridors in India, leaving more space for freight as
> well! Or you could spend it as we propose in California, part of a $40
> billion connection between the north and south.
>
> I think I'd vote for the former.
>
>
>
> From: Ashok Sreenivas [mailto:ashok.sreenivas at gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 8:07 PM
> To: Lee Schipper
> Cc: Colin Brader; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport
> Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast inthe
> wrongdirection
>
>
>
> I agree with the points by Lee and Colin that if HSR induces exurbia
> then it would be terrible. But just to push the argument a bit, what I
> had in mind was, say, a comfortable overnight 7-8 hour non-stop HSR
> service - a moderate average speed of about 200-220 kmph - between
> Mumbai and Delhi (which I believe is already the 6th busiest air
> corridor in the world). Essentially providing high speed point-to-point
> services across big metros in large countries - thus competing directly
> with air and not routine work commutes. Of course, if this can be done
> with cheaper technologies such as Acela or X2000, then that is the way
> to go.
>
> Ashok
>
> --
> Ashok Sreenivas
> Prayas Energy Group <http://www.prayaspune.org/peg> and Parisar
> <http://www.parisar.org>
>
>
> On 9/02/2011 9:14 AM, Lee Schipper wrote:
>
> I agree with Colin Brader. The risk that in the name of expanded travel
> and commerce we actually split our selves geographically (like we are in
> the US) enormous. But what to do? How to keep the lid on wanderlust?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Colin Brader [mailto:brader at itpworld.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 7:42 PM
> To: Lee Schipper; Ashok Sreenivas; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport
> Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast inthe
> wrongdirection
>
> A further crucial issue is the land use distortions that can be created.
> In much the same way as high speed roads did, although to a greater
> degree, HSR encourages the separation of origin and destination with the
> potential to create un attached suburbs. As such, and as already been
> noted, this will increase trip making by creating the possibility of
> travel but also encourages dormitory towns (detached suburbs) that are
> unable to support full range of retail and entertainment functions. As
> such the question must be asked - what kind of society are we trying to
> create? Are we content to have dormitory towns, what does this do for
> the goal of inclusive societies that are built upon interaction and the
> creation of social well-being . As transport is not a self-serving
> activity the worth, or otherwise, of HSR must lie in its effects upon
> society and the form of society we are seeking to create.
>
> Regards
> Colin Brader
> Director
> Integrated Transport Planning Ltd
> 43 Temple Row
> Birmingham B2 5LS, UK
>
> Tel: +44 (0)121 230 1700
> Mobile: +44 (0)7771 707538
> www.itpworld.net
>
>
> Offices in Milton Keynes, Birmingham and Nottingham Registered in
> England and Wales No: 3485430 Registered office: 50 North Thirteenth
> Street, Milton Keynes, MK9 3BP VAT Number: 705011395
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net at list.jca.apc.org
> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net at list.jca.apc.org] On
> Behalf Of Lee Schipper
> Sent: 09 February 2011 03:25
> To: Ashok Sreenivas; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport
> Subject: [sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast inthe
> wrongdirection
>
> HSR between Brussels and Paris knocked out all bout 1 flight each way a
> day. And has clearly deterred growth in air, car travel between many
> city pairs in Europe, but has also induced travel.
>
> The potential advantages for Asia is HSR could build travel on the
> ground BEFORE air travel becomes hopelessly congested.
>
>
>
> The bad news is we're talking great cost. Also success in many
> countries was boosted by 1) high road fuel prices 2) tolls on intercity
> roads 3) initially low car ownership, i.e., starting early and 4) little
> or no air travel competition. India has 3) but only some long
> distance roads are tolled (ex Mumbai-Pune). Diesel prices are still
> relatively low. Above all, however, one has to recognize that HSR will
> promote longer distance travel than otherwise, which is a mixed
> blessing.
>
>
>
> "All aboard"? I road Acela (our medium speed train) from Philadelphia to
> Washington today, had power and wi-fi, very comfortable. The X2000 in
> Sweden is similar. Neither are the fastest nor most expensive, both work
> well. Why not spend $$ in Asia making intercity rail at less than
> breathtaking speeds work well?
>
>
>
> Lee
>
>
>
> From: Ashok Sreenivas [mailto:ashok.sreenivas at gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 7:19 PM
> To: UTSG Mailing List (Z UTSG Mailing List -); Global 'South'
> Sustainable Transport
> Cc: Lee Schipper
> Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in the
> wrongdirection
>
>
>
> In the context of countries like India and China, does HSR make sense as
> an alternative, not to car travel, but to air travel. Is there evidence
> that HSR can actually replace, say, short haul flights of an hour or two
> (particularly if getting to and from the airport, and associated
> security checks in a country like India add a good 3-4 hours overhead to
> the actual flying time)? If so, it may be worth considering since
> aviation emissions in India grew at a whopping ~15% p.a. before the
> recession hit, in comparison with total transport emissions growing at
> about 5-6%. Particularly since I believe (though don't know enough) that
> HSR will be easily cost-competitive with air. Will be happy to know your
> thoughts and for any references that may help.
>
> Lee: Request you to also send the TRB paper you referred to.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Ashok
>
> --
> Ashok Sreenivas
> Prayas Energy Group <http://www.prayaspune.org/peg>
> <http://www.prayaspune.org/peg> and Parisar <http://www.parisar.org>
> <http://www.parisar.org>
>
>
> On 9/02/2011 6:54 AM, Sudhir wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I would instead ask can asians afford it ? Many Asian countries are
> joining the HSR bandwagon after China with Vietnam ( there is good
> opposition) and India making aggressive plans. Should Asian countries
> think about HSR for future or rather plan and have a decent heavy rail
> system which provides safe, comfortable and cheap travel? Do we have any
> literature for developing countries on economic viability of such
> projects as such?
>
> See
> http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2011/01/12/high-speed-rail-to-connect
> -nine-south-china-cities.html
> http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/news/330126,rejecting-high-speed-rail
> -plan.html
> http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/13/vietnam-looks-to-fund-56-b
> illion-high-speed-system-between-hanoi-and-ho-chi-minh-city/
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4843889.cms
>
> regards
> Sudhir
>
>
> On 9 February 2011 02:53, Lee Schipper <schipper at wri.org>
> <mailto:schipper at wri.org> <mailto:schipper at wri.org>
> <mailto:schipper at wri.org> wrote:
>
>
> At UC we have looked at the CO2 impacts of HSR in the US. Simple
> result-- modest savings in those corridors where HSR makes sense
> (and
> I'll leave that question there), provided trains are moderately
> to very
> full and electricity is not all coal fired. Remember that in the
> time
> frame (2030) we expect other modes to be less carbon intensive.
>
> On the whole the impact ins SMALL because so little of total
> travel is
> in the 100-1000 km range in dense corridors. And while the CO2
> savings
> are reassuring, they do not constitute justification for HSR,
> rather
> just a small cobenefit.
>
> The paper is in 2011 TRB and will soon be on the ORNL web site
> where
> energy-committee sponsored sessions are exhibited. Happy to send
> the
> pdf.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org
>
> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org] On
> Behalf Of Walter Hook
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:44 AM
> To: bruun at seas.upenn.edu
> Cc: UTSG Mailing List (Z UTSG Mailing List -); Global 'South'
> Sustainable Transport
> Subject: [sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in
> the
> wrongdirection
>
> thanks for sharing this. getting a lot of questions about the
> US high
> speed rail proposals/discussions and don't yet have a firm
> opinion on
> them. one or two corridors are a maybe, i would say, assuming a
> new gas
> tax or carbon
> tax could pay for them, but this is far from likely. be good
> to get a
> discussion going on this in the US context as well. I am
> starting to
> think about combining intercity and commuter longer distance
> express bus
> services with downtown bus lanes and HOV lanes, as a possible
> alternative to high speed rail. If there were HOV/bus lanes
> throughout
> NYC and down the NJ Turnpike, its likely you could make it NY to
> DC on
> an express bus in a time competitive to rail. These private
> Chinatown
> based buses in New York are charging $25 for NY to DC or Boston,
> or even
> less, you book on line, and they have high speed internet, etc,
> compared
> to well over $100 for the rail service. In the US, once you get
> off the
> train, you are unlikely to be anywhere near where you plan to
> go,
> particularly once you are outside of NYC.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:50 PM, <bruun at seas.upenn.edu>
> <mailto:bruun at seas.upenn.edu> <mailto:bruun at seas.upenn.edu>
> <mailto:bruun at seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Eric Britton:
>
> Thanks for posting this one.
>
> I wholeheartedly agree with John Whitelegg that the
> question of
> financing versus who will use HSR needs to be addressed,
> not just in
> the UK, but anywhere. We have the same issue right now in
> the
> Northeast Corridor of the US. Would it be fair to use
> general revenues
>
>
>
> to build an even faster system that only business
> travelers and the
> wealthy can afford to use? This is already the case with
> the moderate
> speed Acela Express having as it does per-unit-distance
> fares amongst
> the highest in the world. Indeed, with fares as high as
> they are and
> the limited capacity offered, there are few environmental
> benefits of
> taking cars off the road, either. Thus, I can't see why
> the general
> public should subsidize it any more than they should pay
> to build an
> airline and airports.
>
> Eric Bruun
>
>
>
> Quoting eric britton <eric.britton at ecoplan.org>
> <mailto:eric.britton at ecoplan.org> <mailto:eric.britton at ecoplan.org>
> <mailto:eric.britton at ecoplan.org> :
>
>
> I would like to invite your attention and your
> reactions to this
> piece that appears in today's World Streets.
> Your participation
> and views are invited for a follow-up piece , as
> you will see in the
>
>
>
> last section of the article.
>
>
>
>
> UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in the wrong
> direction <
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
>
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
>
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
> http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
> very-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
>
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
>
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
>
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
>
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
> In the field of transport, no matter how
> straight-forward the issues
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
> may seem to be to the busy citizen, merchant,
> reporter or policy
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
> maker, when it comes to making wise policy it
> really does take a
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
> certain level of time and attention to come to
> grips with the
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
> underlying issues and priorities that shape the
> outcomes. The big
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
> problem encumbering the mobility issues of our
> new century is that
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
> just about everything turns out upon study to be
> unobligingly
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
> complex, interdependent, complicated and time
> lagged ? no matter how
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
> simple it may appear to be on the surface. In the
> article that
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
> follows, the principle author, John Whitelegg,
> has a go at a lot of
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
> the too-easy thinking that is the main currency
> of the High Speed
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
> Rail discussions in places like Britain and the
> US, where the only
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
> experience with these technologies and operations
> has been that of a
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
> time-lagged dream machine. Let?s embrace a bit of
> complexity here. .
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
> . .
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
>
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....--->
> - - - >
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/Inthefieldoftransport,nomatterhowstraigh
> t-forwardtheissuesmayseemtobetothebusycitizen,merchant,reporterorpolicym
> aker,whenitcomestomakingwisepolicyitreallydoestakeacertainleveloftimeand
> attentiontocometogripswiththeunderlyingissuesandprioritiesthatshapetheou
> tcomes.Thebigproblemencumberingthemobilityissuesofournewcenturyisthatjus
> tabouteverythingturnsoutuponstudytobeunobliginglycomplex,interdependent,
> complicatedandtimelagged?nomatterhowsimpleitmayappeartobeonthesurface.In
> thearticlethatfollows,theprincipleauthor,JohnWhitelegg,hasagoatalotofthe
> too-easythinkingthatisthemaincurrencyoftheHighSpeedRaildiscussionsinplac
> eslikeBritainandtheUS,wheretheonlyexperiencewiththesetechnologiesandoper
> ationshasbeenthatofatime-laggeddreammachine.Let?sembraceabitofcomplexity
> here....---> Full text here at
>
>
>
>
>
> http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-ve
>
> ry-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/<http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/0
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/>
> 2/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-very-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/>
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/>
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/>
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/>
> <http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
> ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
>
> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS,
> please go to
>
> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the
> real sustran-discuss and get full membership
> rights.
>
>
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion
> of people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus
> on developing
> countries (the 'Global South').
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
>
> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss
> to join the
>
> real
>
> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
>
>
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of
> people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on
> developing
>
> countries
>
> (the 'Global South').
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Walter Hook
> Executive Director
> Institute for Transportation and Development Policy
> 9 East 19th Street, 7th Floor
> New York, NY 10003
> 1-212-629-8001
> www.itdp.org
>
> Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
>
> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join
> the real
> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
>
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of
> people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> countries
> (the 'Global South').
> --------------------------------------------------------
> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
>
> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join
> the real
> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
>
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of
> people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> countries
> (the 'Global South').
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real
> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
>
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> (the 'Global South').
>
> This email (and any attachments) contains confidential information and
> is intended solely for the individual to whom it is addressed. If this
> email has been misdirected, please notify the author as soon as
> possible. If you are not the intended recipient you must not disclose,
> distribute, copy, print or rely on any of the information contained, and
> all copies must be deleted immediately.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
> anti-virus software, but Integrated Transport Planning Ltd cannot accept
> liability for any damage caused by receipt of this email.
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real
> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
>
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> (the 'Global South').
>
--
Ashok R.Datar
Mumbai Environmental Social Network
20 Madhavi, Makarand Society, S.V.S.Marg, Mahim-400 016
98676 65107/0222 444 9212 see our website : www.mesn.org
[image: Slide2.JPG]
* I hear, then I forget. I see, then I remember. I do, then I understand.*
More information about the Sustran-discuss
mailing list