[sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast inthe wrongdirection
Lee Schipper
schipper at wri.org
Wed Feb 9 12:44:23 JST 2011
I agree with Colin Brader. The risk that in the name of expanded travel and commerce we actually split our selves geographically (like we are in the US) enormous. But what to do? How to keep the lid on wanderlust?
-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Brader [mailto:brader at itpworld.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 7:42 PM
To: Lee Schipper; Ashok Sreenivas; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport
Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast inthe wrongdirection
A further crucial issue is the land use distortions that can be created. In much the same way as high speed roads did, although to a greater degree, HSR encourages the separation of origin and destination with the potential to create un attached suburbs. As such, and as already been noted, this will increase trip making by creating the possibility of travel but also encourages dormitory towns (detached suburbs) that are unable to support full range of retail and entertainment functions. As such the question must be asked - what kind of society are we trying to create? Are we content to have dormitory towns, what does this do for the goal of inclusive societies that are built upon interaction and the creation of social well-being . As transport is not a self-serving activity the worth, or otherwise, of HSR must lie in its effects upon society and the form of society we are seeking to create.
Regards
Colin Brader
Director
Integrated Transport Planning Ltd
43 Temple Row
Birmingham B2 5LS, UK
Tel: +44 (0)121 230 1700
Mobile: +44 (0)7771 707538
www.itpworld.net
Offices in Milton Keynes, Birmingham and Nottingham Registered in England and Wales No: 3485430 Registered office: 50 North Thirteenth Street, Milton Keynes, MK9 3BP VAT Number: 705011395
-----Original Message-----
From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net at list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net at list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Lee Schipper
Sent: 09 February 2011 03:25
To: Ashok Sreenivas; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport
Subject: [sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast inthe wrongdirection
HSR between Brussels and Paris knocked out all bout 1 flight each way a day. And has clearly deterred growth in air, car travel between many city pairs in Europe, but has also induced travel.
The potential advantages for Asia is HSR could build travel on the ground BEFORE air travel becomes hopelessly congested.
The bad news is we're talking great cost. Also success in many countries was boosted by 1) high road fuel prices 2) tolls on intercity roads 3) initially low car ownership, i.e., starting early and 4) little or no air travel competition. India has 3) but only some long distance roads are tolled (ex Mumbai-Pune). Diesel prices are still relatively low. Above all, however, one has to recognize that HSR will promote longer distance travel than otherwise, which is a mixed blessing.
"All aboard"? I road Acela (our medium speed train) from Philadelphia to Washington today, had power and wi-fi, very comfortable. The X2000 in Sweden is similar. Neither are the fastest nor most expensive, both work well. Why not spend $$ in Asia making intercity rail at less than breathtaking speeds work well?
Lee
From: Ashok Sreenivas [mailto:ashok.sreenivas at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 7:19 PM
To: UTSG Mailing List (Z UTSG Mailing List -); Global 'South'
Sustainable Transport
Cc: Lee Schipper
Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in the wrongdirection
In the context of countries like India and China, does HSR make sense as an alternative, not to car travel, but to air travel. Is there evidence that HSR can actually replace, say, short haul flights of an hour or two (particularly if getting to and from the airport, and associated security checks in a country like India add a good 3-4 hours overhead to the actual flying time)? If so, it may be worth considering since aviation emissions in India grew at a whopping ~15% p.a. before the recession hit, in comparison with total transport emissions growing at about 5-6%. Particularly since I believe (though don't know enough) that HSR will be easily cost-competitive with air. Will be happy to know your thoughts and for any references that may help.
Lee: Request you to also send the TRB paper you referred to.
Thanks.
Ashok
--
Ashok Sreenivas
Prayas Energy Group <http://www.prayaspune.org/peg> and Parisar <http://www.parisar.org>
On 9/02/2011 6:54 AM, Sudhir wrote:
Hi all,
I would instead ask can asians afford it ? Many Asian countries are joining the HSR bandwagon after China with Vietnam ( there is good opposition) and India making aggressive plans. Should Asian countries think about HSR for future or rather plan and have a decent heavy rail system which provides safe, comfortable and cheap travel? Do we have any literature for developing countries on economic viability of such projects as such?
See
http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2011/01/12/high-speed-rail-to-connect
-nine-south-china-cities.html
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/news/330126,rejecting-high-speed-rail
-plan.html
http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/13/vietnam-looks-to-fund-56-b
illion-high-speed-system-between-hanoi-and-ho-chi-minh-city/
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4843889.cms
regards
Sudhir
On 9 February 2011 02:53, Lee Schipper <schipper at wri.org> <mailto:schipper at wri.org> wrote:
At UC we have looked at the CO2 impacts of HSR in the US. Simple
result-- modest savings in those corridors where HSR makes sense (and
I'll leave that question there), provided trains are moderately to very
full and electricity is not all coal fired. Remember that in the time
frame (2030) we expect other modes to be less carbon intensive.
On the whole the impact ins SMALL because so little of total travel is
in the 100-1000 km range in dense corridors. And while the CO2 savings
are reassuring, they do not constitute justification for HSR, rather
just a small cobenefit.
The paper is in 2011 TRB and will soon be on the ORNL web site where
energy-committee sponsored sessions are exhibited. Happy to send the
pdf.
-----Original Message-----
From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org
[mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org] On
Behalf Of Walter Hook
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:44 AM
To: bruun at seas.upenn.edu
Cc: UTSG Mailing List (Z UTSG Mailing List -); Global 'South'
Sustainable Transport
Subject: [sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in the
wrongdirection
thanks for sharing this. getting a lot of questions about the US high
speed rail proposals/discussions and don't yet have a firm opinion on
them. one or two corridors are a maybe, i would say, assuming a new gas
tax or carbon
tax could pay for them, but this is far from likely. be good
to get a
discussion going on this in the US context as well. I am starting to
think about combining intercity and commuter longer distance express bus
services with downtown bus lanes and HOV lanes, as a possible
alternative to high speed rail. If there were HOV/bus lanes throughout
NYC and down the NJ Turnpike, its likely you could make it NY to DC on
an express bus in a time competitive to rail. These private Chinatown
based buses in New York are charging $25 for NY to DC or Boston, or even
less, you book on line, and they have high speed internet, etc, compared
to well over $100 for the rail service. In the US, once you get off the
train, you are unlikely to be anywhere near where you plan to go,
particularly once you are outside of NYC.
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:50 PM, <bruun at seas.upenn.edu> <mailto:bruun at seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
Eric Britton:
Thanks for posting this one.
I wholeheartedly agree with John Whitelegg that the question of
financing versus who will use HSR needs to be addressed, not just in
the UK, but anywhere. We have the same issue right now in the
Northeast Corridor of the US. Would it be fair to use general revenues
to build an even faster system that only business travelers and the
wealthy can afford to use? This is already the case with the moderate
speed Acela Express having as it does per-unit-distance fares amongst
the highest in the world. Indeed, with fares as high as they are and
the limited capacity offered, there are few environmental benefits of
taking cars off the road, either. Thus, I can't see why the general
public should subsidize it any more than they should pay to build an
airline and airports.
Eric Bruun
Quoting eric britton <eric.britton at ecoplan.org> <mailto:eric.britton at ecoplan.org> :
I would like to invite your attention and your reactions to this
piece that appears in today's World Streets.
Your participation
and views are invited for a follow-up piece , as you will see in the
last section of the article.
UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in the wrong direction <
http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-
very-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/
In the field of transport, no matter how straight-forward the issues
may seem to be to the busy citizen, merchant, reporter or policy
maker, when it comes to making wise policy it really does take a
certain level of time and attention to come to grips with the
underlying issues and priorities that shape the outcomes. The big
problem encumbering the mobility issues of our new century is that
just about everything turns out upon study to be unobligingly
complex, interdependent, complicated and time lagged ? no matter how
simple it may appear to be on the surface. In the article that
follows, the principle author, John Whitelegg, has a go at a lot of
the too-easy thinking that is the main currency of the High Speed
Rail discussions in places like Britain and the US, where the only
experience with these technologies and operations has been that of a
time-lagged dream machine. Let?s embrace a bit of complexity here. .
. .
- - - > Full text here at
http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-ve
ry-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/<http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/0
2/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-very-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/>
<http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/>
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