[sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in
the wrongdirection
Lee Schipper
schipper at wri.org
Wed Feb 9 12:24:45 JST 2011
HSR between Brussels and Paris knocked out all bout 1 flight each way a
day. And has clearly deterred growth in air, car travel between many
city pairs in Europe, but has also induced travel.
The potential advantages for Asia is HSR could build travel on the
ground BEFORE air travel becomes hopelessly congested.
The bad news is we're talking great cost. Also success in many
countries was boosted by 1) high road fuel prices 2) tolls on intercity
roads 3) initially low car ownership, i.e., starting early and 4) little
or no air travel competition. India has 3) but only some long
distance roads are tolled (ex Mumbai-Pune). Diesel prices are still
relatively low. Above all, however, one has to recognize that HSR will
promote longer distance travel than otherwise, which is a mixed
blessing.
"All aboard"? I road Acela (our medium speed train) from Philadelphia to
Washington today, had power and wi-fi, very comfortable. The X2000 in
Sweden is similar. Neither are the fastest nor most expensive, both work
well. Why not spend $$ in Asia making intercity rail at less than
breathtaking speeds work well?
Lee
From: Ashok Sreenivas [mailto:ashok.sreenivas at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 7:19 PM
To: UTSG Mailing List (Z UTSG Mailing List -); Global 'South'
Sustainable Transport
Cc: Lee Schipper
Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in the
wrongdirection
In the context of countries like India and China, does HSR make sense as
an alternative, not to car travel, but to air travel. Is there evidence
that HSR can actually replace, say, short haul flights of an hour or two
(particularly if getting to and from the airport, and associated
security checks in a country like India add a good 3-4 hours overhead to
the actual flying time)? If so, it may be worth considering since
aviation emissions in India grew at a whopping ~15% p.a. before the
recession hit, in comparison with total transport emissions growing at
about 5-6%. Particularly since I believe (though don't know enough) that
HSR will be easily cost-competitive with air. Will be happy to know your
thoughts and for any references that may help.
Lee: Request you to also send the TRB paper you referred to.
Thanks.
Ashok
--
Ashok Sreenivas
Prayas Energy Group <http://www.prayaspune.org/peg> and Parisar
<http://www.parisar.org>
On 9/02/2011 6:54 AM, Sudhir wrote:
Hi all,
I would instead ask can asians afford it ? Many Asian countries are
joining
the HSR bandwagon after China with Vietnam ( there is good opposition)
and
India making aggressive plans. Should Asian countries think about HSR
for
future or rather plan and have a decent heavy rail system which provides
safe, comfortable and cheap travel? Do we have any literature for
developing
countries on economic viability of such projects as such?
See
http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2011/01/12/high-speed-rail-to-connect
-nine-south-china-cities.html
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/news/330126,rejecting-high-speed-rail
-plan.html
http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/13/vietnam-looks-to-fund-56-b
illion-high-speed-system-between-hanoi-and-ho-chi-minh-city/
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4843889.cms
regards
Sudhir
On 9 February 2011 02:53, Lee Schipper <schipper at wri.org>
<mailto:schipper at wri.org> wrote:
At UC we have looked at the CO2 impacts of HSR in the US. Simple
result-- modest savings in those corridors where HSR makes sense
(and
I'll leave that question there), provided trains are moderately
to very
full and electricity is not all coal fired. Remember that in the
time
frame (2030) we expect other modes to be less carbon intensive.
On the whole the impact ins SMALL because so little of total
travel is
in the 100-1000 km range in dense corridors. And while the CO2
savings
are reassuring, they do not constitute justification for HSR,
rather
just a small cobenefit.
The paper is in 2011 TRB and will soon be on the ORNL web site
where
energy-committee sponsored sessions are exhibited. Happy to send
the
pdf.
-----Original Message-----
From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org
[mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org] On
Behalf Of Walter Hook
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:44 AM
To: bruun at seas.upenn.edu
Cc: UTSG Mailing List (Z UTSG Mailing List -); Global 'South'
Sustainable Transport
Subject: [sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in
the
wrongdirection
thanks for sharing this. getting a lot of questions about the
US high
speed rail proposals/discussions and don't yet have a firm
opinion on
them. one or two corridors are a maybe, i would say, assuming a
new gas
tax or carbon
tax could pay for them, but this is far from likely. be good
to get a
discussion going on this in the US context as well. I am
starting to
think about combining intercity and commuter longer distance
express bus
services with downtown bus lanes and HOV lanes, as a possible
alternative to high speed rail. If there were HOV/bus lanes
throughout
NYC and down the NJ Turnpike, its likely you could make it NY to
DC on
an express bus in a time competitive to rail. These private
Chinatown
based buses in New York are charging $25 for NY to DC or Boston,
or even
less, you book on line, and they have high speed internet, etc,
compared
to well over $100 for the rail service. In the US, once you get
off the
train, you are unlikely to be anywhere near where you plan to
go,
particularly once you are outside of NYC.
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:50 PM, <bruun at seas.upenn.edu>
<mailto:bruun at seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
Eric Britton:
Thanks for posting this one.
I wholeheartedly agree with John Whitelegg that the
question of
financing versus who will use HSR needs to be addressed,
not just in
the UK, but anywhere. We have the same issue right now
in the
Northeast Corridor of the US. Would it be fair to use
general revenues
to build an even faster system that only business
travelers and the
wealthy can afford to use? This is already the case with
the moderate
speed Acela Express having as it does per-unit-distance
fares amongst
the highest in the world. Indeed, with fares as high as
they are and
the limited capacity offered, there are few
environmental benefits of
taking cars off the road, either. Thus, I can't see why
the general
public should subsidize it any more than they should pay
to build an
airline and airports.
Eric Bruun
Quoting eric britton <eric.britton at ecoplan.org>
<mailto:eric.britton at ecoplan.org> :
I would like to invite your attention and your
reactions to this
piece that appears in today's World Streets.
Your participation
and views are invited for a follow-up piece , as
you will see in the
last section of the article.
UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in the wrong
direction <
http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-
very-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/
In the field of transport, no matter how
straight-forward the issues
may seem to be to the busy citizen, merchant,
reporter or policy
maker, when it comes to making wise policy it
really does take a
certain level of time and attention to come to
grips with the
underlying issues and priorities that shape the
outcomes. The big
problem encumbering the mobility issues of our
new century is that
just about everything turns out upon study to be
unobligingly
complex, interdependent, complicated and time
lagged ? no matter how
simple it may appear to be on the surface. In
the article that
follows, the principle author, John Whitelegg,
has a go at a lot of
the too-easy thinking that is the main currency
of the High Speed
Rail discussions in places like Britain and the
US, where the only
experience with these technologies and
operations has been that of a
time-lagged dream machine. Let?s embrace a bit
of complexity here. .
. .
- - - > Full text here at
http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-ve
ry-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/<http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/0
2/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-very-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/>
<http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-v
ery-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/>
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