[sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in the wrongdirection

[Lee Schipper]

At UC we have looked at the CO2 impacts of HSR in the US. Simple
result-- modest savings in those corridors where HSR makes sense (and
I'll leave that question there), provided trains are moderately to very
full and electricity is not all coal fired. Remember that in the time
frame (2030) we expect other modes to be less carbon intensive.

On the whole the impact ins SMALL because so little of total travel is
in the 100-1000 km range in dense corridors.  And while the CO2 savings
are reassuring, they do not constitute justification for HSR, rather
just a small cobenefit.

The paper is in 2011 TRB and will soon be on the ORNL web site where
energy-committee sponsored sessions are exhibited. Happy to send the
pdf.
-----Original Message-----
From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org
[mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org] On
Behalf Of Walter Hook
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:44 AM
To: bruun at seas.upenn.edu
Cc: UTSG Mailing List (Z UTSG Mailing List -); Global 'South'
Sustainable Transport
Subject: [sustran] Re: UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in the
wrongdirection

thanks for sharing this.  getting a lot of questions about the US high
speed rail proposals/discussions and don't yet have a firm opinion on
them.  one or two corridors are a maybe, i would say, assuming a new gas
tax or carbon
tax could pay for them, but this is far from likely.    be good to get a
discussion going on this in the US context as well.  I am starting to
think about combining intercity and commuter longer distance express bus
services with downtown bus lanes and HOV lanes, as a possible
alternative to high speed rail.  If there were HOV/bus lanes throughout
NYC and down the NJ Turnpike, its likely you could make it NY to DC on
an express bus in a time competitive to rail.  These private Chinatown
based buses in New York are charging $25 for NY to DC or Boston, or even
less, you book on line, and they have high speed internet, etc, compared
to well over $100 for the rail service.  In the US, once you get off the
train, you are unlikely to be anywhere near where you plan to go,
particularly once you are outside of NYC.



On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:50 PM, <bruun at seas.upenn.edu> wrote:

> Eric Britton:
>
> Thanks for posting this one.
>
> I wholeheartedly agree with John Whitelegg that the question of 
> financing versus who will use HSR needs to be addressed, not just in 
> the UK, but anywhere. We have the same issue right now in the 
> Northeast Corridor of the US. Would it be fair to use general revenues

> to build an even faster system that only business travelers and the 
> wealthy can afford to use? This is already the case with the moderate 
> speed Acela Express having as it does per-unit-distance fares amongst 
> the highest in the world. Indeed, with fares as high as they are and 
> the limited capacity offered, there are few environmental benefits of 
> taking cars off the road, either. Thus, I can't see why the general 
> public should subsidize it any more than they should pay to build an 
> airline and airports.
>
> Eric Bruun
>
>
>
> Quoting eric britton <eric.britton at ecoplan.org>:
>
> > I would like to invite your attention and your reactions to this 
> > piece  that appears in today's World Streets.  Your participation 
> > and views are invited for a follow-up piece , as you will see in the

> > last section of the article.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > UK High Speed Rail: Going very fast in the wrong direction <
> http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-
> very-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/
> >
> >
> >
> > In the field of transport, no matter how straight-forward the issues
> > may seem to be to the busy citizen, merchant, reporter or policy
> > maker, when it comes to making wise policy it really does take a
> > certain level of time and attention to come to grips with the
> > underlying issues and priorities that shape the outcomes. The big
> > problem encumbering the mobility issues of our new century is that
> > just about everything turns out upon study to be unobligingly
> > complex, interdependent, complicated and time lagged ? no matter how
> > simple it may appear to be on the surface. In the article that
> > follows, the principle author, John Whitelegg, has a go at a lot of
> > the too-easy thinking that is the main currency of the High Speed
> > Rail discussions in places like Britain and the US, where the only
> > experience with these technologies and operations has been that of a
> > time-lagged dream machine. Let?s embrace a bit of complexity here. .
> > . .
> >
> > -  - - > Full text here at
> >
>
http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/uk-high-speed-rail-going-ve
ry-fast-in-the-wrong-direction/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the
> > real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> >
> > ================================================================
> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> > countries (the 'Global South').
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the
real
> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
>
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
countries
> (the 'Global South').
>



-- 

Walter Hook
Executive Director
Institute for Transportation and Development Policy
9 East 19th Street, 7th Floor
New York, NY 10003
1-212-629-8001
www.itdp.org

Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide.
-------------------------------------------------------- 
To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss

-------------------------------------------------------- 
If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real
sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.

================================================================
SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
(the 'Global South').