From cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org Mon Apr 4 11:15:10 2011 From: cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org (Cornie Huizenga) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 10:15:10 +0800 Subject: [sustran] ADB Internship: Social Sustainability of Transpor Message-ID: The Asian Development Bank has an opportunity for Internship: Internship Title: Social Sustainability of Transport *Expected Outcomes*: - Identify and review existing or planned initiatives, policies, strategies and guidelines on social sustainability and transport in the region - Identify evidence-based good practices and tools that can enhance the policy dialogue on social sustainability and transport - Review existing training materials on social sustainability, and identify those most relevantfor the transport sector and identify gaps in training materials and tools - Assist RSDD to design a training program on social sustainability and transport for ADB transport staff, contractors and civil society - Prepare write-ups for 2 or 3 good practice cases, including use of tools - Prepare a 5-10 page paper on the topic and present in a brown bag *Educational Requirements*: Candidates must: - be enrolled in a Master's- or PhD level program at a school in one of the ADB member countries, both prior to and after the internship assignment; and - be engaged in academic study in a field directly related to ADB's work *Candidates must have*: - relevant professional experience - a good mix of social development and transport issues - familiarity with core principles of ADB's Operational Plan of Transport, more specifically social sustainability and transport * Relevant Experience And Other Requirements: Candidates must*: - possess an excellent command of English, both spoken and written - able to quickly understand key policy issues of ADB, particularly transport and social development - interact with staff of ADB to deliver expected results *Core Competencies:* *Candidates must be able to:* - exhibit professionalism in the conduct of his/her project tasks - analyze data and recommend solutions - be self-directed. - build professional relationships to achieve results. - prioritize work to achieve assignment outcomes. *Immediate Reporting Relationships / Other Information*: - Position reports to an assigned International Staff Supervisor. - Candidates must be a national of one of ADB's member countries. - Past interns are ineligible to apply in subsequent years. - Close relatives of ADB personnel are ineligible to apply but ADB spouses may apply if the eligibility requirements are met. - Internship duration is 24 weeks (flexible) - Assignment is from June to December 2011 (flexible) . You can get further information on the ADB Internship program at: http://adb.org/Internship/default.asp. Applications are online at the same website. with best regards, Cornie -- Cornie Huizenga Joint Convener Partnership on Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport Mobile: +86 13901949332 cornie.huizenga@slocatpartnership.org www.slocat.net From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Mon Apr 4 19:40:04 2011 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric britton) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 12:40:04 +0200 Subject: [sustran] World Streets Weekly: Edition of 4 April 2011 Message-ID: <020f01cbf2b4$acb50290$061f07b0$@britton@ecoplan.org> Go to: www.WorldStreets.org THIS WEEK'S TITLES: 26 March: Honk! OpenStreetMap: Visualizing spatial data 26 March: Interview with British Transport Secretary / Attitudes towards the car 25 March: Managing Two and Three-Wheelers in Asia 24 March: Op-Ed. Time to put a stake in the ground (Lahore, Pakistan) 22 March: BMW enters the one-way carsharing market 21 March: The Battle for the Streets of New York City SEE, SHAPE AND INTERACT WITH WORLD STREETS FROM DIFFERENT ANGLES on . . . ? World Streets ? http://www.facebook.com/worldstreets ? Twitter ? http://twitter.com/#!/worldstreets ? Scribd - http://.scribd.com/fekbritton ? LinkedIn ? http://tinyurl.com/ws-L-In ? YouTube - http://tinyurl.com/YT-WorldStreets-1 ? Picasa ? http://tinyurl.com/ws-picasa HANDS-ON COLLABORATION: WITH YOU AND YOUR CITY? How can World Streets help support sustainable transport initiatives in your neighborhood, city, country, agency, or public interest or user group? Through special issues or supporting articles? Collaboration in support of conferences, projects, workshops, master classes, city dialogues? Local or other media programs? Cooperative programs or events with universities, NGOs, consultancies and schools? This we will have to do together. So now all that remains to be done is to get you actively involved as a reader, subscriber, contributor, supporter and working partner so that in 2011 we can together go from strength to strength. Get in touch so that we can swap ideas concerning how to go about it. TO RECEIVE WEEKLY EDITIONS FREELY IN 2011: click here - http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/about/to-subscribe/ From erebolledo at cleanairinstitute.org Tue Apr 5 01:03:21 2011 From: erebolledo at cleanairinstitute.org (Enrique Rebolledo) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 12:03:21 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Sustainable Transport, Air Quality and Climate Change Conference in Rosario, Argentina Message-ID: <623B9B3CF414694F928D0BE5DB2893A6E055B82CF3@fuel2007.fuelcells.org> Dear friends and colleagues,? The Clean Air Institute, together with the City of Rosario, GIZ, the Global Environmental Facility, the World Bank, and the Spanish Fund for Latin America are organizing the Sustainable Transport, Air Quality and Climate Change Conference in Rosario, Argentina. This conference will focus on identifying opportunities for cooperation aimed at multilateral organizations, foundations, corporations and other entities to participate in the conference as well as programs that are underway in the region to improve urban mobility and combat climate change. This Conference is an interdisciplinary high level forum, with the participation of decision makers and professionals from Latin America and elsewhere. It aims to serve as a platform to discuss how cities are facing the challenge of introducing best practices of transport, while fighting climate change, reduce air pollution, noise reduction, and urban commuting. The high-level meeting is envisaged in the context of the meeting of the Clean Air Initiative for Latin American & the Caribbean Cities (CAI-LAC), aiming at having leader cities from the region to gather and identify opportunities to transit to low carbon transportation systems in these cities. One of the expected outcomes is a Declaration on Sustainable Transport that together with the technical conference, is expected to deliver inputs to build and discuss avenues for collaboration on sustainable transport that could also influence Mayor's meeting in South Africa and COP17, among other high-level processes. Finally, all these activities will be framed in a commercial exhibit of state-of-the-art technologies and services that could catalyze investments in better transportation systems.? More information about this Conference can be found at: http://www.cleanairinstitute.org/evento_rosario.php or contact: info@cleanairinstitute.org Regards, Enrique Rebolledo Clean Air Institute erebolledo@cleanairinstitute.org Ph: +1 (202) 464-5450 From edelman at greenidea.eu Tue Apr 5 20:38:47 2011 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 13:38:47 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Colonial design influences on working bikes in Asia and Global South Message-ID: <4D9AFF47.4020101@greenidea.eu> Hi, Henry Cutler of Workcycles in Amsterdam has a blog post on working bikes in parts of Asia and elsewhere in developing countries and their design in relation to the respective former colonial powers: http://www.bakfiets-en-meer.nl/2011/04/05/safety-first-hong-kong-style/ He has some questions.... perhaps people on this list have some answers.... Thanks! -- Todd Edelman Green Idea Factory, a member of the OPENbike team Mobile: ++49(0)162 814 4081 edelman@greenidea.eu www.greenidea.eu todd@openbike.se www.openbike.se Skype: toddedelman Urbanstr. 45 10967 Berlin Germany *** OPENbike - Share the Perfect Fit! From shovan1209 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 6 14:44:05 2011 From: shovan1209 at yahoo.com (Syed Saiful Alam) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 22:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sustran] Wrong-minded modernization: rickshaw bans Message-ID: <97330.78264.qm@web161713.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Wrong-minded modernization: rickshaw bans A new wave of rickshaw bans has just occurred in Dhaka. How appropriate were those bans? How sound are the arguments against rickshaws? The rickshaw has for decades been attacked by the media and others in Bangladesh as being slow, causing traffic jams and thus congestion, being an inhuman occupation for the pullers, and holding Dhaka back from modernization. Just how true are those claims? First, does the experience with rickshaw bans to date suggest that such bans effectively reduce traffic congestion? On the contrary; even government reports show that rickshaw bans do nothing to improve traffic, and sometimes traffic speed even further deteriorates following rickshaw bans. In addition, people?s travel cost as well as time increase. Are VIP roads free of traffic congestion? Will the government blame rickshaws for congestion until there are no rickshaws left, and then what will they blame? Cities around the world with no rickshaws waste millions of dollars in lost time and wasted fuel due to traffic jams caused entirely by cars. Why are we so eager to join them? Are rickshaws slow? Government reports indicate that in many cases, it is faster to walk than to take a bus. Average car speed in many Asian cities is no greater than the speed of a rickshaw. The fact that cars can on empty streets move faster than rickshaw is meaningless in Dhaka traffic situations, except in the danger it implies: when cars race on empty roads, they regularly kill pedestrians. How many fatal accidents are caused by rickshaws? Meanwhile, congestion makes cars slow; too many cars cause congestion. Rickshaws not only do not kill pedestrians, but they play a very important role in reducing pollution, as they themselves are completely emission-free vehicles, even when stuck in traffic. It is not just the (potential) speed of a vehicle that matters; vehicles also take up space when parked. Cars are typically parked for most of the day, so the road or other valuable urban space they occupy is the space not only on the streets when moving but space for parking space. Imagine taking a series of short trips around Dhaka by car: everywhere you go, you must park the car somewhere. Although many apartment units now have car parking, they do not allow visitors to use the spaces, even if the lot is empty. So parked cars clutter the streets. As an alternative, we could work on turning our city into a series of high-rise parking lots (as Bangkok has done, much to the detriment of its liveability), or we could maintain a city with many urban amenities by reducing car parking and making conditions good for taking short trips by rickshaw, which require little space when parked and in any case spend most of the day carrying people about. How inhuman is the business of pedaling a rickshaw? It might not be a profession most of you reading this article would like to have, but neither is it likely you would wish to spend hours a day standing in water, bent at the waist, transplanting rice. The measure of whether a profession is inhuman is not whether or not we are willing to engage in it, but rather what those working in it feel about it and what their alternatives are. Rickshaw pulling is a huge source of needed jobs; the pullers themselves clearly prefer it to begging or starving. Further, unlike many other professions, it is fairly well-paid, involves a good deal of independence, and gives the pullers a chance to choose their hours and to rest when they wish. It is thus far less inhuman than many other professions. What is inhuman is denying people the right to earn a living. How well can we manage without the rickshaw in Dhaka? It is important to remember that many trips taken are short. Does it make sense to wait 10-20 minutes for a bus in order to travel 3 kilometres? What if you have many destinations: say a woman taking her child to school, going to a shop, visiting a relative, going home, then going back to pick up her child? If she had to buy separate bus tickets for each trip segment, the expense would be exorbitant. No wonder 41% of trips to take children to school occur by rickshaw; it is a safe, convenient, and affordable form of door-to-door transport. As for walking as an alternative, we are all for it: but first there needs to be a better environment for walking. The problems faced by those on foot in Dhaka are numerous: footpaths in bad condition, often occupied by parked cars, and used at times by motorbikes; lack of safe street crossings; bad smells due to the lack of public toilets; lack of safety at night; and the exposure to continual fumes and noise from the traffic on the streets. Rickshaws provide a fairly pleasant alternative to the dismal business of walking in Dhaka; it is unfair to the middle class to take away that option in the assumption that they should either buy a car or suffer on buses, which themselves involve a number of obstacles to comfortable travel and of course only operate on certain routes, causing problems for those traveling with children, carrying heavy items, and so on. Speaking of the popularity of rickshaws, it is helpful to compare the percentage of trips that occur by rickshaw versus car. No measures have been taken to ban cars from narrow lanes, despite the obvious fact that cars create congestion in the lanes, blocking the easy movement of hundreds of people traveling by rickshaw. Far from it: the building code is insisting on the provision of ever more car parking, providing incentive for ever more cars, even on narrow streets. But how popular is the car versus the rickshaw? According to the latest government figures, for overall trips in the Dhaka Metropolitan Area and Dhaka City Corporation, 4-5% are made by car versus 29-39% by rickshaw. While men make 32% of their trips by car, that figure is 47.4% for women. As mentioned, 41% of trips to school occur by rickshaw; only 4% are taken by car (yet cars already create hideous congestion around schools and during the times when children go to and from school). While car use is far higher among the wealthy (here defined as those earning over 50,000 taka per month), at 18% of trips, that figure is still dwarfed by rickshaw trips: 35% of trips taken by the wealthy are by rickshaw. That is, rickshaws account for twice the number of trips as cars even among the wealthier, and up to ten times as many trips overall. If it is so important to ban vehicles due to the congestion they create, why on earth is it the rickshaw that is being banned? Finally, are rickshaws an antiquated vehicle that should be relegated to the past, or instead a glowing emblem of modernity? The most modern, attractive, liveable cities are mostly in western Europe. A significant portion of trips in those cities ? say, 30-50% or more ? occurs by bicycle. European cities, as well as growing numbers of cities in Australia and North America, promote the bicycle in order to reduce traffic congestion, fumes, noise, and travel expense, and to increase the attractiveness and liveability of cities. What after all is a rickshaw but a three-wheeled bicycle (imagine trying to cycle through Dhaka...no wonder people prefer rickshaws!). Given the related catastrophes of climate change, peak oil, obesity, and lack of physical activity, governments around the world are trying to get people out of their cars. It is the low-income cities of the world that are heading in the opposite direction, laying out the red carpet for cars while making life difficult and unsafe for pedestrians and cyclists. Why are policymakers in Dhaka insistent on making things worse for the city rather than better? If we really want to reduce traffic congestion, we must do what city after city around the world has been forced to do: actively work to reduce travel by car and increase travel by other means. Years ago, an international transport expert referred to Dhaka?s modal share as ?enviable?: few cars and many rickshaws. Rather than appreciate what we had and work to make things even better, we are instead working to increase traffic congestion, noise, fumes, and expense, and to make moving about the city more difficult for the non-car-owning majority. It is also interesting to note that the latest rickshaw bans occurred after government decisions to limit car use through a variety of measures. To the best of our knowledge, none of those measures have been implemented to date, while other measures to encourage car use continue. What was done instead, despite significant media attention over the last few years to the problem of private cars, was to ban rickshaws from various streets. Clearly the decision was based on prejudice, not any technical understanding of the situation. It allows the government to say that it is doing something to improve traffic, while only making matters worse, because politically it is difficult to put into places measures to reduce the vehicle preferred by a tiny portion of the most wealthy and powerful. But it is wrong to believe that only rickshaw pullers are upset by the bans. Dhaka residents have long suffered for the various bans that have been put into place over the years: witness the long lines of people attempting to go to and from New Market by rickshaw, or the anger of women in focus groups discussing the rickshaw bans on Mirpur Road. Of course people want safe, convenient, comfortable transport. People also vote. It is not wise to anger the masses through such wrong-minded decisions. It is time to raise our voices in support of smart traffic planning: to ensure that all people, not just those with a car, can move about safely and conveniently; that non-polluting modes are given priority; and that international experience in addressing traffic congestion is put to good use here. It is time to say no to further rickshaw bans, to overturn the recent ones, and to work together to make Dhaka a city in which people can move about safely, comfortably, and conveniently on foot, on 2- and 3-wheeled bicycles (rickshaws), and on public transport. We would all benefit from the improved air quality, safety, and convenience.??????????????? Syed Saiful Alam Environmental Activist +8801552442814 shovan1209@yahoo.com http://dhaka-rickshaw.blogspot.com/2011/04/wrong-minded-modernization-rickshaw.html From yanivbin at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 01:26:40 2011 From: yanivbin at gmail.com (Vinay Baindur) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 21:56:40 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Activists angry over Pune-Mumbai Expressway toll loot, plan protest action Message-ID: http://www.moneylife.in/article/activists-angry-over-pune-mumbai-expressway-toll-loot-plan-protest-action/15267.html *Activists angry over Pune-Mumbai Expressway toll loot, plan protest action* April 02, 2011 02:55 PM | [image: Bookmark and Share] Vinita Deshmukh *RTI Forum for Instant Information to petition Maharashtra chief minister, file public interest litigation, to check the toll charges collected by IRB that has a contract till 2019 * Thanks to the Right To Information Act (RTI), it is pretty clear now that Ideal Road Builders (IRB), the private agency which operates, maintains and will collect the toll on the Pune-Mumbai Expressway until 2019, has already collected toll tax in excess of what it had envisioned, going by the ?cash flow? statement which it has submitted in the ?contract agreement? with the Maharashtra State Road Development Corporation (MSRDC). As per this latest document that I procured, it has already collected Rs949.45 crore until September 2010 by way of toll fees (it must have surely crossed the Rs1,000 crore mark by 31 March 2011). This collection is against its own projection of Rs606.05 in the contract agreement. MSRDC officials, on condition of anonymity, admitted this is a vital document for comparison with the actual toll collection. (Read, The grand Expressway robbery: How much toll is IRB allowed to collect and who monitors this?) Concerned over the hoodwinking by the IRB and MSRDC turning a Nelson?s Eye to the issue, activists in Pune under the forum of the RTI Forum for Instant Information (RFII) are working towards taking up this matter with the MSRDC, the chief minister and they are also considering putting a public interest litigation before the High Court. A meeting will be held on Tuesday, 5th April, to chalk out the strategy. Vivek Velankar, noted RTI activist and RFII member said, ?MSRDC must use technology at toll nakas by putting up motion sensors. This would help in transparency in the actual number of vehicles passing through. Secondly, the MSRDC should declare openly as to for how long citizens will have to pay toll (by announcing a figure) by calculating toll collection up to now; adding interest of IRB?s initial capital investment of Rs918 crore deposited with MSRDC in 2004; adding expenditure by way of operation and maintenance of the expressway; and certain amount of profit to the IRB.?? Accordingly, MSRDC should either reduce the toll charges in order to keep up with the spirit of the contract, which lasts till March 2019, wherein IRB has been allowed to levy toll charges, or then terminate toll collection and make the Pune-Mumbai Expressway a freeway. RFII has also demanded *stern action against the MSRDC?s toll monitoring unit, which is an independent consultancy firm,* and its admission that it does not look into the revenues that IRB is collecting, although it is binding on it according to the norms which are also put up on MSRDC?s website (www.msrdc.org) and also as per the central government guidelines.?? Activists in Pune are agitated that the IRB has neglected the maintenance of the Expressway. Says Vijay Kumbhar, a leading RTI activist who was the first to invoke Section 4 of the RTI Act in the country at the Pune Municipal Corporation, ?What has the IRB done about the safety of the commuters? The last two-three months have witnessed gory accidents and the cause of most of them is being conveniently labeled as ?human error?. What action has been taken against trucks which are supposed to keep to the left lane, but jam the Expressway on all lanes, particularly during the night hours, leading to senseless accidents??? Chandmal Parmar, noted road accident prevention activist says, ?IRB has completely failed in the maintenance and patrolling of the Expressway. It is collecting toll without giving proper services to the people.?? In 2010, 443 accidents took place, of which 101 were fatal?103 people were killed. Since January 2011, more than 25 people have died in accidents. After *Moneylife* exposed the Expressway toll scandal last week through the use of RTI, the issue has taken a political hue. Shiv Sena activists in Pune took up the issue by organising a rasta roko for half an hour on Friday and their leader Neelam Gorhe also raised the issue in the state legislative assembly. We request citizens to join in the campaign to make the MSRDC and IRB accountable. RFII plans to draft a petition letter by Tuesday which will also be uploaded on the *Moneylife* website. Readers should sign this petition and send it to the chief minister of Maharashtra, as well as the MSRDC (we shall provide the email addresses for this), so that there is ample public pressure that will make them sit up and take note. Interestingly, as per a central government notification issued by the Ministry of Road Transport and Highways on 13 January 2011, the base rate for toll charges for vehicles is as follows: Car, jeep, LMV: Rs0.65 per km Light commercial vehicles: Rs1.05 for every km Bus, truck: Rs2.20 for every km Three-axle commercial vehicles: Rs2.40 for every km Heavy vehicles: Rs3.45 for every km Over-sized vehicles: Rs4.20 for every km This notification clearly states that these rates are not valid for earlier contracts. But considering that the IRB has overshot its projected profits, the RFII will request the MSRDC to adhere to this new notification in case IRB has yet to reach its target of collection. If you go by this new notification, a car on the expressway would have to pay only around Rs60 for the 95-km route as against Rs165 being charged from 1st April. Says Sinha, ?I have traveled by car in states like Goa, Karnataka, Kerala and Tamil Nadu but find that the toll charges in Maharashtra are the highest.?? RFII has requested the help of those who are well versed in the law and willing to help to assist in filing a public interest litigation. Individuals can write in at vinitapune@gmail.com From navdeep.asija at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 03:09:17 2011 From: navdeep.asija at gmail.com (Asija, Navdeep) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 23:39:17 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Coming to a museum: Evolution of rickshaws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Punjab tourism department is planning to set up a museum to showcase the ?evolution? of rickshaws during the past 130 years since they have been around in India. The museum will be one of its kind as there is no single museum in the world solely dedicated to this eco-friendly, human powered means of transport. The initiative to set up the museum has been taken up by the department in collaboration with Graduates Welfare Association Fazilka (GWAF), which has pioneered the eco-cab movement in the state. The GWAF?s eco-cab is an improvement upon the traditional rickshaw, and is about 20 kgs lighter. Now, the department is scouting for the land to set up the museum. Punjab Principal Secretary Tourism Geetika Kalha told The Indian Express that one of the places considered by the department for the museum is Baggi Khana at Kapurthala. She said it has the right kind of environs for the museum, but is under the jurisdiction of Police Department. If the department is not able to get space here, it may then choose Amritsar to house the museum. The holy city, which is a major tourist destination, is also one of the major rickshaw manufacturing-and-assembling hubs in north India. According to the proposal submitted by GWAF for the project, the museum will have three major sections. The display section will trace the evolution of rickshaws from hand-pulled models to the latest ecocabs. More than 25 models of rickshaws shall be displayed here. The photo gallery will exhibit historic pictures related to rickshaws, like Mahatma Gandhi?s visit to the Shimla convention on a rickshaw. The third section, the literature section, will display books and contain CDs of movies which majorly featured rickshaws, with audio-visual aids. Navdeep Asija, secretary of GWAF, said globally, there is now more and more interest in this environment-friendly, sustainable transport. ?Rickshaw has been part of our collective heritage. We must acknowledge its growth and socio-economic value through such initiatives,? he said. Heritage rickshaws for the project will be sourced by Delhi-based rickshaw-manufacturer Sandeep Arora. Modern factories now churn out about 20 rickshaws in a day. Arora, whose father was in the same business, recalls the time when it would take a month to make a rickshaw, with all the woodwork and the artwork. Arora has managed to get two 70-year-old rickshaws from Shashi Bhushan Sharma, whose father used to run the Sevak Cycle-Rickshaw Cooperative Industrial Society in Delhi in 1960. ?At that time, there were only about 850 rickshaws in the whole of Delhi, and rickshaw tyres were provided on ration cards. Many years ago, I had dismantled and kept two of these rickshaws for the sake of nostalgia. I will happily give them for the museum,? said Sharma. Arora plans to source other models from Meerut, Kolkata, Moradabad and other old cities, through his trade network. ?As far as possible, we will try to get the originals, and where it is not possible, make a copy,? he said. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/coming-to-a-museum-evolution-of-rickshaws/770568/0 From hghazali at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 18:08:51 2011 From: hghazali at gmail.com (Hassaan Ghazali) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 14:08:51 +0500 Subject: [sustran] Op ed column: The Fukushima Fumble Message-ID: Please find below the link to my op-ed column on the disaster in Japan and what Pakistan can learn from it http://epaper.pakistantoday.com.pk/E-Paper/Lahore/2011-04-07/page-13/detail-3 Regards, Hassaan From edelman at greenidea.eu Thu Apr 7 19:55:14 2011 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 12:55:14 +0200 Subject: [sustran] World Bank Under Fire for Role in New Global Green Fund Message-ID: <4D9D9812.10607@greenidea.eu> CLIMATE CHANGE World Bank Under Fire for Role in New Global Green Fund http://ipsnews.net/newsTVE.asp?idnews=55148 Marwaan Macan-Markar BANGKOK, Apr 6 (IPS) - The World Bank is facing mounting opposition from a broad network of green and grassroots activists over its role in a new global Green Climate Fund (GCF) aimed at helping developing countries combat the ravages of climate change. "In spite of the climate and economic crises, the World Bank continues to finance fossil fuel projects at an alarming rate, promote false solutions to the climate crisis, and use funding instruments that increase indebtedness of developing countries," charged a coalition of nearly 100 local and international civil society organisations in a letter released here during on- going negotiations at the first of three U.N. climate change conferences to be held in the lead up to the Durban COP17 summit in late November. "The World Bank is not suited to advise in the design of a fund that must ensure fair and effective long-term financing based on the principles of environmental integrity, equity, sustainable development and democracy," noted the two-page letter, whose signatories included global groups like Action Aid and International Rivers, regional groups like the Pan African Climate Justice Alliance and local groups like the Bolivian Climate Change Platform. The letter was addressed to Patricia Espinosa, Mexico?s secretary of foreign affairs, and to Christina Figueres, the head of the Bonn-based climate change secretariat of the U.N. Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC). It was at last December?s UNFCCC summit in Cancun, Mexico that a landmark blueprint emerged creating the GCF, which is aimed at financing efforts to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases (GHG) and to help communities adapt to the havoc created by climate change in the developing world. The Bank was named as the new fund?s interim trustee for the first three years, until a more permanent financial architecture is built to steer much needed assistance to the world?s poorer nations. A report by U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon?s climate financing advisory group released on the eve of the Mexico climate change summit estimated that 100 billion dollars a year is needed for climate change initiatives in the developing world. Other estimates point to a higher figure - upwards of 400 billion dollars annually in the South - reveals the Jubilee South Asia-Pacific Movement on Debt and Development (JSAPMDD), a regional network of grassroots activists. The GCF has been mandated to start forking out these new funds by 2020, which, according to the UNFCCC, will take the form of grants or concessional loans. But the Bank?s record of programmes under the guise of ?development? in the poorer nations makes it the wrong choice to play a permanent role in administering the GCF, says Victoria Tauli-Corpuz, convener of the Asian Indigenous Women?s Network, a regional grassroots group based in Manila. "They are not a trusted institution in the developing world." "There is a fear among activists and some developing country governments that the Bank will secure approval to run the day-to-day operations of the GCF," Tauli-Corpuz told IPS. "That will result in more obstructions for the poor and the vulnerable victims of climate change." "Climate finance is part of the reparations for climate debt owed by rich, industrialised countries to the peoples and countries of the South," argues Ahmed Swapan of JSAPMDD. "The climate debt must be collected, managed and disbursed by an institution that is democratic, accountable, transparent and governed by a board with a majority coming from [the] South." Activists are concerned about a potential conflict-of-interest if the Bank secures the role as the secretariat of the GCF, since the Washington, D.C.- based multilateral financial institution will also have a part as a co-financier and implementer of projects. As troubling is the Bank?s record in existing climate change funds, such as the Global Environmental Facility (GEF), which was established in 1991 to help developing countries adapt to the challenges of climate change. "To get funds from the GEF, countries had to go through implementing agencies like the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) and the World Bank," said Matthew Stilwell, policy adviser at the Institute for Governance and Sustainable Development, a Geneva-based think tank. "They had to jump through hoops, making it difficult to access funds." Consequently, developing countries are "advocating for more direct access to the funds" of the GCF, Stilwell told IPS. "They have learnt lessons from the past." But in the rooms of the U.N. conference centre here, where climate change negotiators from 190 countries are meeting from Apr. 3 - 8 to shape a new global environmental deal, the sources of funding for the GCF are also on the table. "It will be new sources of funding," Jozsef Feiler, the chief climate change negotiator for Hungary, currently the president of the council of the European Union, told IPS. Yet activists are not convinced, given suggestions by negotiators from the developed world that funding would be from a combination of public and private sector sources. "Funding should be from public sources, new and additional to official development assistance," says Michelle Maynard of the Pan African Climate Justice Alliance. "The principles are simple: providing climate finance is a legal and moral obligation for rich countries." (END/2011) -- Todd Edelman Green Idea Factory, a member of the OPENbike team Mobile: ++49(0)162 814 4081 edelman@greenidea.eu www.greenidea.eu todd@openbike.se www.openbike.se Skype: toddedelman Urbanstr. 45 10967 Berlin Germany *** OPENbike - Share the Perfect Fit! From shovan1209 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 10 04:41:35 2011 From: shovan1209 at yahoo.com (Syed Saiful Alam) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 12:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sustran] Rickshaw-pullers demonstrate on March 28 against the decision to make some city roads off-limits to rickshaws in Dhaka Message-ID: <660319.12206.qm@web161719.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> What was done instead, despite significant media attention over the last few years to the problem of private cars, was to ban rickshaws from various streets. Clearly the decision was based on prejudice, not any technical understanding of the situation. It allows the government to say that it is doing something to improve traffic situation, while only making matters worse, because it is politically difficult to put into places measures to reduce the vehicle preferred by a tiny portion of the wealthy and powerful, ........Syed Saiful Alam Wrong way to modernisation: rickshaw bans Syed Saiful Alam +8801552442814 shovan1209@yahoo.com From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Mon Apr 11 17:26:02 2011 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric britton) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:26:02 +0200 Subject: [sustran] World Streets Weekly: Edition of 11 April 2011 Message-ID: <001d01cbf822$1b3166b0$51943410$@britton@ecoplan.org> World Streets Weekly: Edition of 11 April 2011 * * Click here for Weekly Edition of 11 April 2011 * * - ? - > To receive Weekly Editions freely in 2011: click here This week's titles: 10 April: On wrong-minded modernization of transport 9 April: Honk! Bus of the Future? (Have a stupid weekend) 8 April: Italians are moving less. But using public transport more 8 April: Bikes, Helmets and the Long Arm of the Law 7 April: Picking a few bones with our old World Bank friends 7 April: City as a time capsule: Urban highway construction mania still booming in 2011 6 April: Guangzhou, China: Winning The Future With BRT 5 April: Whence Social Media on World Streets 4 April: North/South perspectives: When a cyclist is not a cyclist is not a cyclist Also, see and interact with World Streets from different angles on . . . ? Facebook ? World Streets Facebook Group ? Twitter ? Twitter/World Streets ? Scribd - http://.scribd.com/fekbritton ? LinkedIn ? LinkedIn World Streets Group ? Picasa ? The lively faces of the world's streets ? YouTube ? World Streets on YouTube Facebook Focus Groups (You will need to be logged in to access) 1. Africa Streets ? Click here 2. Gatnet: Gender & transport ? Click here 3. Global South - Click here 4. India Streets - Click here 5. Journal of World Transport Policy and Practice - Click here 6. New Mobility Caf? - Click here 7. New Mobility Kids Network - Click here 8. Nova Mobilidade - Click here 9. Nuova Mobilit? - Click here 10. World Carshare Consortium - Click here 11. World City Bike Forum - Click here 12. World Rideshare - Click here 13. World Rural Transport - Click here 14. World Streets Sentinels - Click here 15. World Telemobility - Click here 16. World xTransit - Click here From hghazali at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 13:56:04 2011 From: hghazali at gmail.com (Hassaan Ghazali) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:56:04 +0500 Subject: [sustran] Op-ed column: Parks and Horticultural Authority Message-ID: Please find below the link to my op-ed column on the PHA which was published in Pakistan Today on Apr 14, 2011. http://epaper.pakistantoday.com.pk/E-Paper/Lahore/2011-04-14/page-13/detail-3 Regards, Hassaan From kaye.patdu at cai-asia.org Fri Apr 15 12:16:32 2011 From: kaye.patdu at cai-asia.org (Kaye Patdu) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:16:32 +0800 Subject: [sustran] =?utf-8?Q?=28Second_Call=29_Invitation_for_Green_Freigh?= =?utf-8?Q?t_Network_Survey_for_Organizati=E2=80=8Bons_and_Technolo?= =?utf-8?Q?gy_Suppliers?= Message-ID: Dear Sustran members We are re-sending our survey invitation for our green freight network. We would appreciate your participation. Thanks for your time! **** CAI-Asia and its partners are designing a *Green Freight China Program *and a global Green Freight Network to facilitate exchange of information and access to expertise and available technologies. This network would benefit countries in Asia aiming to establish green freight programs and would facilitate harmonization of, or at least ensure greater consistency between different green freight programs around the world. We would like to invite organizations involved or is interested in green freight to participate in this survey. Part 1 of the survey is for all organizations. If you are a supplier of technology and related services, please complete Part 1 and 2. *Part 1: Survey for Organizations -* http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/greenfreightsurvey-part1 *Part 2: Survey for Suppliers of Technologies and Related Services -* http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/greenfreightsurvey-part2 You can also download the attached questionnaire and email it to gianina.panopio@cai-asia.org. The survey information will be useful towards establishing this Green Freight Network. Information collected through the survey will be made available online in the Green Freight website. Kindly submit completed questionnaire by* 2 May 2011. * Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any questions or need further clarification. -- Cheers Kaye Maria Katherina Patdu *Air Quality Researcher * *Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities (CAI-Asia Center) Center* T +63 2 395 2843 to 45 | F +63 2 395 2846 | M +63 928 213 7241 | kaye.patdu@cai-asia.org Unit 3504-05, 35F, Robinsons-Equitable Tower, ADB Avenue, Pasig City, 1605, Philippines Visit the *Clean Air Portal *at http://cleanairinitiative.org/portal/ *Please consider the environment before printing this email.* -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Part 1-Survey for Organizations.doc Type: application/msword Size: 182272 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20110415/68d800e3/Part1-SurveyforOrganizations-0001.doc -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Part 2-Survey for Suppliers of Technologies and Related Services.doc Type: application/msword Size: 167936 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20110415/68d800e3/Part2-SurveyforSuppliersofTechnologiesandRelatedServices-0001.doc From yanivbin at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 15:26:41 2011 From: yanivbin at gmail.com (Vinay Baindur) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 11:56:41 +0530 Subject: [sustran] letter on Hyderabad Metro in current EPW Message-ID: http://epw.in/epw/uploads/articles/15961.pdf *Hyderabad Metro* We would like to demand that the Hyderabad Metro Rail (HMR) project be subjected to a rigorous scrutiny on environmental and economic aspects. The HMR has been one of the most controversial mega projects in public-private partnership (PPP) being pushed by the Government of India and Government of Andhra Pradesh. It has also been severely contested by civil society in Hyderabad. Earlier it was linked to the scandal of Satyam Computers. The then prime consultant, E Sreedharan of the Delhi Metro Rail Corporation had withdrawn from this project. Several doubts have been raised on the quality of the studies done for this project. The HMR authorities are refusing to share the detailed project reports even today, preposterously claiming that they are ?intellectual property?. Genuine concerns havebeen expressed over the negative impact of this project on the city?s historic core areas and heritage sites, including Sultan Bazaar and the state assembly building. The route in the old city was changed after the concession agreement had been signed. Now the HMR wants to take the metro corridor right along the course of the Musi river which runs through the city. This river is in the National River Conservation Programme of the Ministry of Environment and Forests (MoEF). Being an elevated corridor running through the busy streets of the core city, this project is going to deface and decimate the beauty of the city, and erase its very historical character. We demand (a) an immediate halt to the project, (b) a thorough review of the feasibility of this project in economic terms vis-?-vis the alternatives available to improve public transport, and (c) rigorous environmental scrutiny. We also demand that the metro rail projects in all cities be brought under the MoEF for mandatory environmental clearance. Medha Patkar, Aruna Roy, P M Bhargava, E A S Sarma, Sekhar Singh, Rajendra Singh, Arvind Kejriwal, Sandeep Pandey, and others From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Thu Apr 21 17:43:46 2011 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric britton) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 10:43:46 +0200 Subject: [sustran] IEA roadmap sees 27% biofuel use by 2050 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00e001cc0000$3cc64ad0$b652e070$@britton@ecoplan.org> Dear Friends and Colleagues, 1. What? Biofuels are back? Again? Help me! Is this just plain silly? Or am I missing something important here? 2. To my mind, this is absolutely insane and/or flagrantly irresponsible meta-proposal. It's a pure plant, a crafty public relations project launched by people who want to put their hand into my pocket, and others who pliantly announce that's OK. 3. Funding biofuels with taxpayer dollars? No more, no less that a recurrent boondoggle, popping up the next time with a different set of clothes but always the same ugly idea, i.e., taking scarce public money to serve private interests. 4. I see no reason for being "reasonable" in the face of these bad recurrent ideas, which have at the base the purloining of hard earned taxpayer money to create future profit opportunities for a sector (the enterprise sector that is) whose job and raison d'?tre it is to be smart, capable and figuring out how to make money now and in the future. They are big guys and we the taxpayers and our public servants should not be holding their hand. 5. Moreover, I have hard time understanding while a bunch of earnest civil servants sitting around some kind of comfortable table in an international capital can pretend that they have the competence to take such positions. That's just silly. 6. Not one penny of taxpayer money should be spent in pushing, pulling, whatever, alternative fuels. That is the domain and the expertise of the private sector. 7. The use of such words as "vision" and "incentivize" (I didn't even know that was a word in proper English) and prhases making statements such as ". . . without adversely affecting food security or the environment" . . Where do they get that from? 8. The job of responsible governance is get the laws, prices and enforcement right for a society that is sustainable and just. In this case it means of course that we collectively are not doing this critical part of our job ? which requires full and fair energy pricing. 9. Get this right and you give clear price signals to the enterprise sector which can then go away and figure out what they are supposed to do ? i.e., to find the products and services that will make them and their stockholders rich in the future. That's what they are supposed to do. We don't want them to "think green", unless it is in their interest to do so. We want them to invent the iPad on their own dollar. Without the help of international committees. When this planet goes down the drain, there will be a lot of really nice reasonable people watching and wringing their hands. Let's not be "reasonable people". Let's win this war. Eric Britton Sent: Thursday, 21 April, 2011 09:48 To: no-reply@cleanairinitiative.org Subject: (From: Cornie Huizenga) IEA roadmap sees 27% biofuel use by 2050 IEA roadmap sees 27% biofuel use by 2050 Global biofuel production could be increased 14-fold by 2050 without adversely affecting food security or the environment, according to a technology roadmap published by the International Energy Agency (IEA) on Wednesday. Biofuels ? liquid and gaseous fuels derived from organic matter ? can play an important role in reducing CO2 emissions in the transport sector, and ehancing energy security. By 2050, biofuels could provide 27% of total transport fuel and contribute in particular to the replacement of diesel, kerosene and jet fuel. The projected use of biofuels could avoid around 2.1 gigatonnes (Gt) of CO2 emissions per year when produced sustainably. To meet this vision, most conventional biofuel technologies need to improve conversion efficiency, cost and overall sustainability. In addition, advanced biofuels need to be commercially deployed, which requires substantial further investment in research, development and demonstration (RD&D), and specific support for commercial-scale advanced biofuel plants. Support policies should incentivise the most efficient biofuels in terms of life-cycle greenhouse-gas performance, and be backed by a strong policy framework which ensures that food security and biodiversity are not compromised, and that social impacts are positive. This includes sustainable land-use management and certification schemes, as well as support measures that promote ?low-risk? feedstocks and efficient processing technologies. Meeting the biofuel demand in this roadmap would require around 65 exajoules (EJ)1 of biofuel feedstock, occupying around 100 million hectares (Mha) in 2050. This poses a considerable challenge given competition for land and feedstocks from rapidly growing demand for food and fibre, and for additional 80 EJ1 of biomass for generating heat and power.2 However, with a sound policy framework in place, it should be possible to provide the required 145 EJ of total biomass for biofuels, heat and electricity from residues and wastes, along with sustainably grown energy crops. Trade in biomass and biofuels will become increasingly important to supply biomass to areas with high production and/or consumption. 1) This is primary energy content of the biomass feedstock before conversion to final energy. 2) A roadmap looking specifically at the use of bioenergy for heat and power will be produced early in 2012.levels, and can help trigger investments and mobilise biomass potentials in certain regions. Scale and efficiency improvements will reduce biofuel production costs over time. In a low-cost scenario, most biofuels could be competitive with fossil fuels by 2030. In a scenario in which production costs are strongly coupled to oil prices, they would remain slightly more expensive than fossil fuels. While total biofuel production costs from 2010 to 2050 in this roadmap range between USD 11 trillion to USD 13 trillion, the marginal savings or additional costs compared to use of gasoline/diesel are in the range of only +/-1% of total costs for all transport fuels. To reply to this message click here To see the full thread, follow the link below http://cleanairinitiative.org/portal/node/7278 Attachment(s): * IEA_biofuels_roadmap.pdf -------------------------------------------------- The Clean Air Portal Communities section is still in beta. We apologize for any strange messages or errors you may encounter. Email your feedback and suggestions to feedback@cleanairinitiative.org World Streets Eric Britton Managing Director 8, rue Jospeh Bara 75006 Paris France Tel. +331 7550 3788 editor@worldstreets.org Skype: newmobility P Avant d'imprimer, pensez ? l'environnement -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/octet-stream Size: 10830 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20110421/9fbef421/attachment.bin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 1409 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20110421/9fbef421/attachment.png From hghazali at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 15:22:41 2011 From: hghazali at gmail.com (Hassaan Ghazali) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 11:22:41 +0500 Subject: [sustran] Op ed column: Amlak Chowk and the public interest Message-ID: Please find below the link to my op-ed column on transport infrastructure development in Lahore http://epaper.pakistantoday.com.pk/E-Paper/Lahore/2011-04-22/page-12/detail-3 Regards, Hassaan From jbs at u.washington.edu Sun Apr 24 01:50:22 2011 From: jbs at u.washington.edu (jbs at u.washington.edu) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 09:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sustran] Book announcement: The Third Generation Roadway: Metropolitan Transportation for the 21st Century In-Reply-To: <00e001cc0000$3cc64ad0$b652e070$@britton@ecoplan.org> Message-ID: http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/third%20generation.htm Includes Prologue, table of contents, list of figures, info about the author, graphics From pantpr at yahoo.com Sun Apr 24 17:59:55 2011 From: pantpr at yahoo.com (Pradip Raj Pant) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 01:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sustran] Re: Book announcement: The Third Generation Roadway: Metropolitan Transportation for the 21st Century In-Reply-To: References: <00e001cc0000$3cc64ad0$b652e070$@britton@ecoplan.org> Message-ID: <265388.38664.qm@web161210.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Glanced the prologue and found that the book is?about the supply side. One more attempt! IMHO smart road and smart cars are nothing new! ? The fundamental question that should be addressed is: ? How can we de-link personal automobile travel with the economic prosperity? New efficient car/ roadway system is not an answer.? ---------------------------------------- Pradip Raj Pant email: pantpr@yahoo.com From: "jbs@u.washington.edu" To: jbs@peak.org Cc: 'Asia and the Pacific sustainable transport' Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 6:50 AM Subject: [sustran] Book announcement: The Third Generation Roadway: Metropolitan Transportation for the 21st Century http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/third%20generation.htm Includes Prologue, table of contents, list of figures, info about the author, graphics -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Sun Apr 24 18:55:52 2011 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric britton) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 11:55:52 +0200 Subject: [sustran] The Third Generation Roadway: Metropolitan Transportation for the 21st Century In-Reply-To: <265388.38664.qm@web161210.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <00e001cc0000$3cc64ad0$b652e070$@britton@ecoplan.org> <265388.38664.qm@web161210.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006101cc0265$ce0135c0$6a03a140$@britton@ecoplan.org> Dear Pradip, All I can say on this topic is that you are really a very kind man. My own reaction was . . . well perhaps it is better that I do not say it here. Warm regards, Eric Britton From edelman at greenidea.eu Sun Apr 24 20:33:27 2011 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 13:33:27 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Re: Book announcement: The Third Generation Roadway: Metropolitan Transportation for the 21st Century In-Reply-To: <265388.38664.qm@web161210.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <00e001cc0000$3cc64ad0$b652e070$@britton@ecoplan.org> <265388.38664.qm@web161210.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DB40A87.7060101@greenidea.eu> Seems like the main goal of this nonsense is to fatten up people, perhaps for harvesting (alien colonization) or just to keep heart disease specialists employed. - T On 04/24/2011 10:59 AM, Pradip Raj Pant wrote: > Glanced the prologue and found that the book is about the supply side. One more attempt! > IMHO smart road and smart cars are nothing new! > > The fundamental question that should be addressed is: > How can we de-link personal automobile travel with the economic prosperity? New efficient car/ roadway system is not an answer. > ---------------------------------------- > Pradip Raj Pant > email: pantpr@yahoo.com > > > From: "jbs@u.washington.edu" > To: jbs@peak.org > Cc: 'Asia and the Pacific sustainable transport' > Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 6:50 AM > Subject: [sustran] Book announcement: The Third Generation Roadway: Metropolitan Transportation for the 21st Century > > > > http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/third%20generation.htm > > Includes Prologue, table of contents, list of figures, info about the author, graphics > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > -- Todd Edelman Green Idea Factory, a member of the OPENbike team Mobile: ++49(0)162 814 4081 edelman@greenidea.eu www.greenidea.eu todd@openbike.se www.openbike.se Skype: toddedelman Urbanstr. 45 10967 Berlin Germany *** OPENbike - Share the Perfect Fit! From edelman at greenidea.eu Tue Apr 26 21:44:09 2011 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 14:44:09 +0200 Subject: [sustran] If and when visiting London and trying out Barclays Cycle Hire, consider this: Message-ID: <4DB6BE19.9070700@greenidea.eu> http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/apr/25/barclays-faces-commodity-protests Barclays faces protests over role in global food crisis Barclays Capital, the investment banking arm, blamed for driving price rises through commodity trading by Felicity Lawrence guardian.co.uk, Monday 25 April 2011 19.00 BST Barclays will be targeted during its annual meeting on Wednesday by anti-poverty campaigners accusing it of playing a leading role in driving up food prices on global commodities markets. Barclays Capital, the investment banking arm of the high street bank, is the UK's biggest player in food commodity trading, and one of the top three banking players globally, according to a new analysis for the World Development Movement. Along with Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, BarCap has pioneered new kinds of financial products that have enabled pension funds and other investors traditionally barred from commodities exchanges to bet on food prices. Deborah Doane, director of the World Development Movement (WDM), accused Barclays of making excessive profits at the expense of millions in poor countries. "First, it was sub-prime mortgages, now it's food commodities," she said. "The lack of transparency in these markets bears worrying resemblance to the behaviour that led to the 2008 financial crash. Like any irrational asset bubble, the investors pile their money in for short-term profits, in spite of the consequences." The WDM report estimates that BarCap may have made as much as ?340m in 2010 from its activities in food speculation. Precise figures are not known because much of the speculation takes the form of over-the-counter derivatives ? trades entered privately between banks and clients. Banks do not publish a breakdown of revenues within divisions, so the WDM figure for Barclays is extrapolated from other measures published by the company, such as money at risk. Barclays declined to comment in detail on the WDM report but said in a statement: "Barclays Capital conducts a variety of investment banking activities to help our clients across asset classes and geographies." It added that it acted as "an intermediary for our clients globally" rather than trading on its own behalf. Barclays has already found its business ethics questioned this year, with UK Uncut, the campaign group, targeting branches over its tax avoidance activities. Soaring food prices have further highlighted the role of investment banks and hedge funds in commodity price spikes. The UN Food and Agriculture Organisation's (FAO's) food price index has reached record levels in recent months, and steep rises in the price of staples helped trigger the revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt. While a range of factors, from climate change to demand for biofuels, have contributed to food price rises, financial speculation in agricultural commodity derivatives is believed by many, including the FAO, to have magnified volatility. Others, including the banks and the OECD, argue speculation is not a significant factor. Financial activity in the commodities markets has seen explosive growth in the last few years. According to data from the UN special rapporteur on the right to food, Olivier De Schutter, investment in commodity index funds rose from $13bn (?7.9bn) in 2003 to $317bn by 2008. While there are no definitive figures on how those index funds break down, it is estimated that their holdings in agricultural commodity markets rose from about $3bn to over $55bn over that period. Producers and processors of physical goods have long used commodities exchanges to hedge against risks such as bad harvests. But much of the recent growth has been through new "structured" products invented by banks and sold to investors. After intense lobbying, banks won deregulation of commodities markets in the US in 2000, allowing them to develop these new products. Goldman Sachs pioneered commodity index funds which offer investors a chance to track changes in a spread of commodity prices. Barclays, meanwhile, invented "collateralised commodity obligations" in 2004, which resemble the synthetic collateralised debt obligations (CDOs) of credit crisis notoriety, except that they are backed by commodity trigger swaps instead o f credit default swaps. BarCap also has a leading position in commodity index investments. There has been concern that the commodities boom represents a new risk to financial stability. The global financial watchdog, the Financial Stability Board, has warned that it has all the hallmarks of a bubble waiting to burst. Michael Masters, the hedge fund manager who gave testimony to the US Senate on speculation and food prices in 2008, agrees that the growth is potentially dangerous. "Financial speculation now accounts for more than two thirds of the market, and only about 30% is physical hedgers," he said. "The percentages have flipped in that period. When billions of dollars of capital is being put to work in small markets like this, it amplifies price rises and if financial flows amplify prices of food stuffs and energy, it's not like real estate and stocks ? when food prices double, people starve." guardian.co.uk ? Guardian News and Media Limited 2011 -- Todd Edelman Mobile: ++49(0)162 814 4081 edelman@greenidea.eu www.greenidea.eu Skype: toddedelman Urbanstr. 45 10967 Berlin Germany From phaizan at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 02:18:04 2011 From: phaizan at gmail.com (Faizan Jawed) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 22:48:04 +0530 Subject: [sustran] PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister Message-ID: We might remember (almost) lampooning Roger Davidheiser's vision contained in "The Third Generation Roadway:Metropolitan Transport for the 21st Century". It seems it is turning to reality in New Delhi. Some "interesting" bits of text has been highlighted by me. Whatever happened to common sense! -Faizan ### * After Metro, now Pod Cars for Delhi? * *New Delhi: * Delhi may soon have a pod car system on the lines of those in many western cities under which battery operated automated pods, having a capacity to carry up to six passengers, will offer transportation from point to point. Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit, after witnessing a presentation, asked Delhi Integrated Multi Modal Transit System Limited (DIMTS) and Transport Department to prepare a detailed project report (DPR) on introduction of the pollution free transport system in the city. Pod car system is a public transportation mode featuring small automated vehicles operating on a network of specially-built tracks. In pod car system, vehicles are sized for individual or small group travel, typically carrying no more than six passengers per vehicle. After the presentation, Dikshit said her government is keen to take it up as a pilot project in areas such as Dwarka, Karol Bagh, East Delhi and Delhi University North Campus. "It will definitely supplement the existing modes of public transport and will come up as an alternative to the personal vehicles," Dikshit said. Transport department officials said the new system may be termed as a personal rapid transit. The private company, which gave the presentation on the project, has offered to commission it with its own resources. "Further it will be economically viable as far as the commuters are concerned. The average fare of the pod will come to be around Rs. 6 per km," said the official. http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/after-metro-now-pod-cars-for-delhi-101691 From carlosfpardo at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 03:58:23 2011 From: carlosfpardo at gmail.com (Carlosfelipe Pardo) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 13:58:23 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB715CF.6070106@gmail.com> I can only imagine a replication of Bruno Latour's "Aramis".... On 26/04/2011 12:18 p.m., Faizan Jawed wrote: > We might remember (almost) lampooning Roger Davidheiser's vision contained > in "The Third Generation Roadway:Metropolitan Transport for the 21st > Century". It seems it is turning to reality in New Delhi. Some "interesting" > bits of text has been highlighted by me. Whatever happened to common sense! > > -Faizan > > ### > * After Metro, now Pod Cars for Delhi? * > *New Delhi: * Delhi may soon have a pod car system on the lines of those in > many western cities under which battery operated automated pods, having a > capacity to carry up to six passengers, will offer transportation from point > to point. > > Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit, after witnessing a presentation, asked > Delhi Integrated Multi Modal Transit System Limited (DIMTS) and Transport > Department to prepare a detailed project report (DPR) on introduction of the > pollution free transport system in the city. > > Pod car system is a public transportation mode featuring small automated > vehicles operating on a network of specially-built tracks. In pod car > system, vehicles are sized for individual or small group travel, typically > carrying no more than six passengers per vehicle. > > After the presentation, Dikshit said her government is keen to take it up as > a pilot project in areas such as Dwarka, Karol Bagh, East Delhi and Delhi > University North Campus. > > "It will definitely supplement the existing modes of public transport and > will come up as an alternative to the personal vehicles," Dikshit said. > > Transport department officials said the new system may be termed as a > personal rapid transit. > > The private company, which gave the presentation on the project, has offered > to commission it with its own resources. > > "Further it will be economically viable as far as the commuters are > concerned. The average fare of the pod will come to be around Rs. 6 per km," > said the official. > > http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/after-metro-now-pod-cars-for-delhi-101691 > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > From dalmaluf at yahoo.com Wed Apr 27 04:16:33 2011 From: dalmaluf at yahoo.com (Dal Maluf) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 12:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: <4DB715CF.6070106@gmail.com> References: <4DB715CF.6070106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <473611.60988.qm@web55807.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Is it serious? ? Come on? Large cities in the developing world, like Delhi, Mumbai, Beijing, Rio de Janeiro or Sao Paulo, where I come from, need to invest in "large scale" network of public transportation systens that can carry 20,30 40 thousand persons per hour/directon, and the only way to do it is in the existing infra-structure on the surface (taking private cars out, and leaving the space for BRTs or LRT)... ? Monorails, PRT and all these "futuristic ideas" don't do anything good to our cities, rather than taking our the attention of public officials on?where they should?been focusing their?priorities.... Here in Sao Paulo, because of the "monorail dream" that JICA brought to the Mayor, we "lost?2?years" studyng these "futuristic" proposals, wasted millions of dollars in project, and now they are all abondoned, but the worst part of it was that we didn't?deliver the BRTs which were planned, and only last year we came back to the long term agenda of investing in BRTs, bycicle and good sidewalks, which represents 70% of all trips in Sao Paulo!!!? ? The only way to really?mitigate?urban congestion, improve air quality and allow more social inclusion to all the City,?at the same time that it delivers "affordable options" of mobility to all the population is investing in BRT systems with good sidewalks and bicycle.?Subways, in some very speciffic cases where high density and millions of?trips in the same direction,?could also be an option,?but generally, BRTs are the best "cost x effective" solution... ? We got to stop dreaming and "losing" time with these futuristic dreams... We need solutions, now! ? De: Carlosfelipe Pardo Para: Faizan Jawed Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Enviadas: Ter?a-feira, 26 de Abril de 2011 15:58 Assunto: Re: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister I can only imagine a replication of Bruno Latour's "Aramis".... On 26/04/2011 12:18 p.m., Faizan Jawed wrote: > We might remember (almost) lampooning Roger Davidheiser's vision contained > in "The Third Generation Roadway:Metropolitan Transport for the 21st > Century". It seems it is turning to reality in New Delhi. Some "interesting" > bits of text has been highlighted by me. Whatever happened to common sense! > > -Faizan > > ### > * After Metro, now Pod Cars for Delhi? * > *New Delhi: * Delhi may soon have a pod car system on the lines of those in > many western cities under which battery operated automated pods, having a > capacity to carry up to six passengers, will offer transportation from point > to point. > > Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit, after witnessing a presentation, asked > Delhi Integrated Multi Modal Transit System Limited (DIMTS) and Transport > Department to prepare a detailed project report (DPR) on introduction of the > pollution free transport system in the city. > > Pod car system is a public transportation mode featuring small automated > vehicles operating on a network of specially-built tracks. In pod car > system, vehicles are sized for individual or small group travel, typically > carrying no more than six passengers per vehicle. > > After the presentation, Dikshit said her government is keen to take it up as > a pilot project in areas such as Dwarka, Karol Bagh, East Delhi and Delhi > University North Campus. > > "It will definitely supplement the existing modes of public transport and > will come up as an alternative to the personal vehicles," Dikshit said. > > Transport department officials said the new system may be termed as a > personal rapid transit. > > The private company, which gave the presentation on the project, has offered > to commission it with its own resources. > > "Further it will be economically viable as far as the commuters are > concerned. The average fare of the pod will come to be around Rs. 6 per km," > said the official. > > http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/after-metro-now-pod-cars-for-delhi-101691 > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From dalmaluf at yahoo.com Wed Apr 27 06:05:42 2011 From: dalmaluf at yahoo.com (Dal Maluf) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 14:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: References: <473611.60988.qm@web55807.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <135410.46840.qm@web55804.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I'm sorry Sonal, I didn't want to?be unfair with this PRT proposal, even because?I don't much about it, but it just seems?unreal... ? If it's a good and sustainable system, wonderfull... But most times I've seen these type?of "magical solutions",?they consume a lot of?resources and time from?our governments, with very little deliverables... ? I imagine a?PRT system all over Delhi would cost billions of dollars, and?how many people would it move around? 1% of the total trips? 2% of the total? I don't need to known much about Delhi, to guess that more than 60-70% of public transportation users are in the buses, just because it's the only systems that can get people close to their homes, and deliver them close to their jobs... London, Sao Paulo, Mexico City, or any large developing world city has more people in buses than on subway and that's a reality that won't change. I hear my friends from the subway agencies in Brazil saying that they will increase their share in public transportation for ages, and only buses have increased more their share in comparison to the extra trips... That's a fact. ? I hope this PRT case is different, but my personal guess is that only BRT can really adress the increase in revenues, which means more cars and more trips in Delhi... I hope your PRT proposal goes well, but?I just can't imagine how hard it would be to build a comprehensive PRT system all over such a huge metropolis... ? It just seems impossible and?unfeasible to me under the?finantial realities that our large developing world cities face... ? Good look... ? Best, Adalberto? De: "Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds)" Para: dalmaluf@yahoo.com Enviadas: Ter?a-feira, 26 de Abril de 2011 16:29 Assunto: Re: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister Dear Dal, What's wrong in delivering a sustainable system for a city. What do you know about Delhi? What is your real counter argument? Have you been in the system. Please don't compare Monorail to PRT. I will be happy to help and elaborate. With warm regards, Sonal Sonal Ahuja Director International Development, CAPITA SYMONDS Technology Transport and Infrastructure Level 7, 52 Grosvenor Gardens, Belgravia, London, SW1W 0AU, United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0) 77 88 666 523 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7870 9399 Email: sonal.ahuja@capita.co.uk Web: www.capitasymonds.co.uk?? Skype: aonalahuja India Mobile: 0091 (0)9310 30 6484 Capita Symonds Ltd? registered office: 71 Victoria Street, Westminster, London SW1H 0XA. Registered in England No. 2018542 Part of the Capita Group Plc.? www.capita.co.uk? Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail ----- Original Message ----- From: Dal Maluf [mailto:dalmaluf@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 08:16 PM To: Carlosfelipe Pardo ; Faizan Jawed Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister Is it serious? ? Come on? Large cities in the developing world, like Delhi, Mumbai, Beijing, Rio de Janeiro or Sao Paulo, where I come from, need to invest in "large scale" network of public transportation systens that can carry 20,30 40 thousand persons per hour/directon, and the only way to do it is in the existing infra-structure on the surface (taking private cars out, and leaving the space for BRTs or LRT)... ? Monorails, PRT and all these "futuristic ideas" don't do anything good to our cities, rather than taking our the attention of public officials on?where they should?been focusing their?priorities.... Here in Sao Paulo, because of the "monorail dream" that JICA brought to the Mayor, we "lost?2?years" studyng these "futuristic" proposals, wasted millions of dollars in project, and now they are all abondoned, but the worst part of it was that we didn't?deliver the BRTs which were planned, and only last year we came back to the long term agenda of investing in BRTs, bycicle and good sidewalks, which represents 70% of all trips in Sao Paulo!!!? ? The only way to really?mitigate?urban congestion, improve air quality and allow more social inclusion to all the City,?at the same time that it delivers "affordable options" of mobility to all the population is investing in BRT systems with good sidewalks and bicycle.?Subways, in some very speciffic cases where high density and millions of?trips in the same direction,?could also be an option,?but generally, BRTs are the best "cost x effective" solution... ? We got to stop dreaming and "losing" time with these futuristic dreams... We need solutions, now! ? De: Carlosfelipe Pardo Para: Faizan Jawed Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Enviadas: Ter?a-feira, 26 de Abril de 2011 15:58 Assunto: Re: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister I can only imagine a replication of Bruno Latour's "Aramis".... On 26/04/2011 12:18 p.m., Faizan Jawed wrote: > We might remember (almost) lampooning Roger Davidheiser's vision contained > in "The Third Generation Roadway:Metropolitan Transport for the 21st > Century". It seems it is turning to reality in New Delhi. Some "interesting" > bits of text has been highlighted by me. Whatever happened to common sense! > > -Faizan > > ### > * After Metro, now Pod Cars for Delhi? * > *New Delhi: * Delhi may soon have a pod car system on the lines of those in > many western cities under which battery operated automated pods, having a > capacity to carry up to six passengers, will offer transportation from point > to point. > > Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit, after witnessing a presentation, asked > Delhi Integrated Multi Modal Transit System Limited (DIMTS) and Transport > Department to prepare a detailed project report (DPR) on introduction of the > pollution free transport system in the city. > > Pod car system is a public transportation mode featuring small automated > vehicles operating on a network of specially-built tracks. In pod car > system, vehicles are sized for individual or small group travel, typically > carrying no more than six passengers per vehicle. > > After the presentation, Dikshit said her government is keen to take it up as > a pilot project in areas such as Dwarka, Karol Bagh, East Delhi and Delhi > University North Campus. > > "It will definitely supplement the existing modes of public transport and > will come up as an alternative to the personal vehicles," Dikshit said. > > Transport department officials said the new system may be termed as a > personal rapid transit. > > The private company, which gave the presentation on the project, has offered > to commission it with its own resources. > > "Further it will be economically viable as far as the commuters are > concerned. The average fare of the pod will come to be around Rs. 6 per km," > said the official. > > http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/after-metro-now-pod-cars-for-delhi-101691 > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). 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From schipper at berkeley.edu Wed Apr 27 04:22:25 2011 From: schipper at berkeley.edu (Lee Schipper) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 12:22:25 -0700 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: <473611.60988.qm@web55807.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <4DB715CF.6070106@gmail.com> <473611.60988.qm@web55807.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6aa7826a408a4fb43477bacc4e801aaa.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> Well said. Let me add my harumph! -- Lee Schipper, Ph.D Project Scientist Global Metropolitan Studies http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/ Street/Mail Address: UC Berkeley Global Metropolitan Studies 1950 Addison 2nd floor, Berkeley. Berkeley CA 94704-2647 +1 510 642 6889, FAX +1 510 642 6061 Cell +1 202 262 7476 skype: mrmeter > Is it serious? > ? > Come on? Large cities in the developing world, like Delhi, Mumbai, > Beijing, Rio de Janeiro or Sao Paulo, where I come from, need to invest in > "large scale" network of public transportation systens that can carry > 20,30 40 thousand persons per hour/directon, and the only way to do it is > in the existing infra-structure on the surface (taking private cars out, > and leaving the space for BRTs or LRT)... > ? > Monorails, PRT and all these "futuristic ideas" don't do anything good to > our cities, rather than taking our the attention of public officials > on?where they should?been focusing their?priorities.... Here in Sao Paulo, > because of the "monorail dream" that JICA brought to the Mayor, we > "lost?2?years" studyng these "futuristic" proposals, wasted millions of > dollars in project, and now they are all abondoned, but the worst part of > it was that we didn't?deliver the BRTs which were planned, and only last > year we came back to the long term agenda of investing in BRTs, bycicle > and good sidewalks, which represents 70% of all trips in Sao Paulo!!!? > ? > The only way to really?mitigate?urban congestion, improve air quality and > allow more social inclusion to all the City,?at the same time that it > delivers "affordable options" of mobility to all the population is > investing in BRT systems with good sidewalks and bicycle.?Subways, in some > very speciffic cases where high density and millions of?trips in the same > direction,?could also be an option,?but generally, BRTs are the best "cost > x effective" solution... > ? > We got to stop dreaming and "losing" time with these futuristic dreams... > We need solutions, now! > ? > > De: Carlosfelipe Pardo > Para: Faizan Jawed > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Enviadas: Ter?a-feira, 26 de Abril de 2011 15:58 > Assunto: Re: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister > > I can only imagine a replication of Bruno Latour's "Aramis".... > > On 26/04/2011 12:18 p.m., Faizan Jawed wrote: >> We might remember (almost) lampooning Roger Davidheiser's vision >> contained >> in "The Third Generation Roadway:Metropolitan Transport for the 21st >> Century". It seems it is turning to reality in New Delhi. Some >> "interesting" >> bits of text has been highlighted by me. Whatever happened to common >> sense! >> >> -Faizan >> >> ### >> * After Metro, now Pod Cars for Delhi? * >> *New Delhi: * Delhi may soon have a pod car system on the lines of those >> in >> many western cities under which battery operated automated pods, having >> a >> capacity to carry up to six passengers, will offer transportation from >> point >> to point. >> >> Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit, after witnessing a presentation, >> asked >> Delhi Integrated Multi Modal Transit System Limited (DIMTS) and >> Transport >> Department to prepare a detailed project report (DPR) on introduction of >> the >> pollution free transport system in the city. >> >> Pod car system is a public transportation mode featuring small automated >> vehicles operating on a network of specially-built tracks. In pod car >> system, vehicles are sized for individual or small group travel, >> typically >> carrying no more than six passengers per vehicle. >> >> After the presentation, Dikshit said her government is keen to take it >> up as >> a pilot project in areas such as Dwarka, Karol Bagh, East Delhi and >> Delhi >> University North Campus. >> >> "It will definitely supplement the existing modes of public transport >> and >> will come up as an alternative to the personal vehicles," Dikshit said. >> >> Transport department officials said the new system may be termed as a >> personal rapid transit. >> >> The private company, which gave the presentation on the project, has >> offered >> to commission it with its own resources. >> >> "Further it will be economically viable as far as the commuters are >> concerned. The average fare of the pod will come to be around Rs. 6 per >> km," >> said the official. >> >> http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/after-metro-now-pod-cars-for-delhi-101691 >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > From aashu.gupta20 at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 09:22:04 2011 From: aashu.gupta20 at gmail.com (Aashish Gupta) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:52:04 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: <6aa7826a408a4fb43477bacc4e801aaa.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> References: <4DB715CF.6070106@gmail.com> <473611.60988.qm@web55807.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6aa7826a408a4fb43477bacc4e801aaa.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: And Rs 6 per Kilometer is just so expensive! And thats assuming that the claim of Rs 6 per kilometer will stay. From alok.priyanka at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 13:15:35 2011 From: alok.priyanka at gmail.com (Jains) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 09:45:35 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: References: <4DB715CF.6070106@gmail.com> <473611.60988.qm@web55807.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6aa7826a408a4fb43477bacc4e801aaa.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: I am surprised that the entire discussion is going towards "substitution" not "complementarity". Delhi already has very ambitious plans for Metros (which are full to the brim - coming from personal experience) and BRT, but there is a strong need to curb private vehicle growth. PRT though tad expensive, could be a perfect feeder system to BRT and Metros and for intra-zonal short-distance travel. Reporting from Delhi. Alok Jain On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 5:52 AM, Aashish Gupta wrote: > And Rs 6 per Kilometer is just so expensive! And thats assuming that the > claim of Rs 6 per kilometer will stay. > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > From joshirutul at yahoo.co.in Wed Apr 27 13:35:40 2011 From: joshirutul at yahoo.co.in (Rutul Joshi) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 10:05:40 +0530 (IST) Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: <135410.46840.qm@web55804.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <473611.60988.qm@web55807.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <135410.46840.qm@web55804.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <379064.75251.qm@web137317.mail.in.yahoo.com> "What do you know about Delhi?" Sorry for going on a tangent, but this question bothers me. I think, this is rude. Why do we assume that someone from Sao Paulo would not have understanding of how transit works in a large-scale rapidly growing city with sprawling suburbs, higher car-ownership/use, depleting public transport, high income disparities, multiplicity of transit agencies, large (and ineffective) investments in transport infrastructure etc. I don't want to single out the thread below but I often encounter this argument in policy realm where certain ideas (and individuals) are selectively discarded by saying 'you are alien and you don't know anything about us'. This is to me some kind of chauvinism. I think, transit problems are the most unifying elements between countries and cities. Recent history of motorisation has paused similar problems everywhere and there are ways to learn from each other. Even the more motorised countries would have a lot to share by saying 'do'nt follow me, I am lost too'. In transit discussions, we should generally refrain from selectively invoking nationalistic postures when it suits our arguments. Now coming back to the PRT discussion, one would like to know how a costly sounding, personalised transit system is a sustainable solution for a very 'public' problem.? best, Rutul Faculty of Planning and Public Policy, CEPT University, Ahmedabad - 9. www.spcept.ac.in ________________________________ From: Dal Maluf To: "Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds)" Cc: "sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org" Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2011 2:35 AM Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister I'm sorry Sonal, I didn't want to?be unfair with this PRT proposal, even because?I don't much about it, but it just seems?unreal... ? If it's a good and sustainable system, wonderfull... But most times I've seen these type?of "magical solutions",?they consume a lot of?resources and time from?our governments, with very little deliverables... ? I imagine a?PRT system all over Delhi would cost billions of dollars, and?how many people would it move around? 1% of the total trips? 2% of the total? I don't need to known much about Delhi, to guess that more than 60-70% of public transportation users are in the buses, just because it's the only systems that can get people close to their homes, and deliver them close to their jobs... London, Sao Paulo, Mexico City, or any large developing world city has more people in buses than on subway and that's a reality that won't change. I hear my friends from the subway agencies in Brazil saying that they will increase their share in public transportation for ages, and only buses have increased more their share in comparison to the extra trips... That's a fact. ? I hope this PRT case is different, but my personal guess is that only BRT can really adress the increase in revenues, which means more cars and more trips in Delhi... I hope your PRT proposal goes well, but?I just can't imagine how hard it would be to build a comprehensive PRT system all over such a huge metropolis... ? It just seems impossible and?unfeasible to me under the?finantial realities that our large developing world cities face... ? Good look... ? Best, Adalberto? De: "Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds)" Para: dalmaluf@yahoo.com Enviadas: Ter?a-feira, 26 deAbrilde 2011 16:29 Assunto: Re: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister Dear Dal, What's wrong in delivering a sustainable system for a city. What do you know about Delhi? What is your real counter argument? Have you been in the system. Please don't compare Monorail to PRT. I will be happy to help and elaborate. With warm regards, Sonal Sonal Ahuja Director International Development, CAPITA SYMONDS Technology Transport and Infrastructure Level 7, 52 Grosvenor Gardens, Belgravia, London, SW1W 0AU, United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0) 77 88 666 523 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7870 9399 Email: sonal.ahuja@capita.co.uk Web: www.capitasymonds.co.uk?? Skype: aonalahuja India Mobile: 0091 (0)9310 30 6484 Capita Symonds Ltd? registered office: 71 Victoria Street, Westminster, London SW1H 0XA. Registered in England No. 2018542 Part of the Capita Group Plc.? www.capita.co.uk? Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail ----- Original Message ----- From: Dal Maluf [mailto:dalmaluf@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 08:16 PM To: CarlosfelipePardo ; Faizan Jawed Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister Is it serious? ? Come on? Large cities in the developing world, like Delhi, Mumbai, Beijing, Rio deJaneiro or Sao Paulo, where I come from, need to invest in "large scale" network of public transportation systens that can carry 20,30 40 thousand persons per hour/directon, and the only way to do it is in the existing infra-structure on the surface (taking private cars out, and leaving the space for BRTs or LRT)... ? Monorails, PRT and all these "futuristic ideas" don't do anything good to our cities, rather than taking our the attention of public officials on?where they should?been focusing their?priorities.... Here in Sao Paulo, because of the "monorail dream" that JICA brought to the Mayor, we "lost?2?years" studyng these "futuristic" proposals, wasted millions of dollars in project, and now they are all abondoned, but the worst part of it was that we didn't?deliver the BRTs which were planned, and only last year we came back to the long term agenda of investing in BRTs, bycicle and good sidewalks, which represents 70% of all trips in Sao Paulo!!!? ? The only way to really?mitigate?urban congestion, improve air quality and allow more social inclusion to all the City,?at the same time that it delivers "affordable options" of mobility to all the population is investing in BRT systems with good sidewalks and bicycle.?Subways, in some very speciffic cases where high density and millions of?trips in the same direction,?could also be an option,?but generally, BRTs are the best "cost x effective" solution... ? We got to stop dreaming and "losing" time with these futuristic dreams... We need solutions, now! ? De: CarlosfelipePardo Para: Faizan Jawed Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Enviadas: Ter?a-feira, 26 deAbrilde 2011 15:58 Assunto: Re: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister I can only imagine a replication of Bruno Latour's "Aramis".... On 26/04/2011 12:18 p.m., Faizan Jawed wrote: > We might remember (almost) lampooning Roger Davidheiser's vision contained > in "The Third Generation Roadway:Metropolitan Transport for the 21st > Century". It seems it is turning to reality in New Delhi. Some "interesting" > bits of text has been highlighted by me. Whatever happened to common sense! > > -Faizan > > ### > * After Metro, now Pod Cars for Delhi? * > *New Delhi: * Delhi may soon have a pod car system on the lines of those in > many western cities under which battery operated automated pods, having a > capacity to carry up to six passengers, will offer transportation from point > to point. > > Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit, after witnessing a presentation, asked > Delhi Integrated Multi Modal Transit System Limited (DIMTS) and Transport > Department to prepare a detailed project report (DPR) on introduction of the > pollution free transport system in the city. > > Pod car system is a public transportation mode featuring small automated > vehicles operating on a network of specially-built tracks. In pod car > system, vehicles are sized for individual or small group travel, typically > carrying no more than six passengers per vehicle. > > After the presentation, Dikshit said her government is keen to take it up as > a pilot project in areas such as Dwarka, Karol Bagh, East Delhi and Delhi > University North Campus. > > "It will definitely supplement the existing modes of public transport and > will come up as an alternative to the personal vehicles," Dikshit said. > > Transport department officials said the new system may be termed as a > personal rapid transit. > > The private company, which gave the presentation on the project, has offered > to commission it with its own resources. > > "Further it will be economically viable as far as the commuters are > concerned. The average fare of the pod will come to be around Rs. 6 per km," > said the official. > > http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/after-metro-now-pod-cars-for-delhi-101691 > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabsSkyScan service. This email and any attachment to it are confidential.? Unless you are the intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose either the message or any information contained in the message. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this email and notify the sender immediately. Any views or opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender only, unless otherwise stated.? All copyright in any Capita material in this email is reserved. All emails, incoming and outgoing, may be recorded by Capita and monitored for legitimate business purposes. Capita exclude all liability for any loss or damage arising or resulting from the receipt, use or transmission of this email to the fullest extent permitted by law. -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From Sonal.Ahuja at capita.co.uk Wed Apr 27 13:41:03 2011 From: Sonal.Ahuja at capita.co.uk (Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds)) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:41:03 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Indeed this system, must be seen complimentary, metros don't attract the car users due to interchange and park and ride problems, PRT is seen to an effective complementary system that offer cleaner, convenient and more efficient system than riding a car. Its not the only solution but yet another system that city planners and engineers can use to solve the problem of urban congestion and pollution along with promoting walking, cycling and an effective bus system. PRT must be seen a part of effective comprehensive urban transit strategy and not in isolation. With warm regards, Sonal Sonal Ahuja Director International Development, CAPITA SYMONDS Technology Transport and Infrastructure Level 7, 52 Grosvenor Gardens, Belgravia, London, SW1W 0AU, United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0) 77 88 666 523 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7870 9399 Email: sonal.ahuja@capita.co.uk Web: www.capitasymonds.co.uk?? Skype: aonalahuja India Mobile: 0091 (0)9310 30 6484 Capita Symonds Ltd? registered office: 71 Victoria Street, Westminster, London SW1H 0XA. Registered in England No. 2018542 Part of the Capita Group Plc.? www.capita.co.uk? Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail ----- Original Message ----- From: Jains [mailto:alok.priyanka@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 05:15 AM To: Aashish Gupta Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister I am surprised that the entire discussion is going towards "substitution" not "complementarity". Delhi already has very ambitious plans for Metros (which are full to the brim - coming from personal experience) and BRT, but there is a strong need to curb private vehicle growth. PRT though tad expensive, could be a perfect feeder system to BRT and Metros and for intra-zonal short-distance travel. Reporting from Delhi. Alok Jain On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 5:52 AM, Aashish Gupta wrote: > And Rs 6 per Kilometer is just so expensive! And thats assuming that the > claim of Rs 6 per kilometer will stay. > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. This email and any attachment to it are confidential. Unless you are the intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose either the message or any information contained in the message. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this email and notify the sender immediately. Any views or opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender only, unless otherwise stated. All copyright in any Capita material in this email is reserved. All emails, incoming and outgoing, may be recorded by Capita and monitored for legitimate business purposes. Capita exclude all liability for any loss or damage arising or resulting from the receipt, use or transmission of this email to the fullest extent permitted by law. From rajendra_ravi at idsindia.net Wed Apr 27 16:46:55 2011 From: rajendra_ravi at idsindia.net (Rajendra Ravi) Date: 27 Apr 2011 07:46:55 -0000 Subject: [sustran] =?utf-8?Q?Re=3A_PRT_proposal_for_Delhi_convinces_Chief_?= =?utf-8?Q?Minister?= Message-ID: <1303838293.S.9563.7873.H.TkZhaXphbiBKYXdlZABbc3VzdHJhbl0gUFJUIHByb3Bvc2FsIGZvciBEZWxoaSBjb252aW5jZXMgQ2hpZWY_.pro-237-234.old.1303890402.27345@webmail.rediffmail.com> Dear Faizan,Our Chief Minister and other Political leaders want to Show as  Delhi a World class  Transport Museum where different mode of transport will be experimented with Delhi citizen. Rajendra Ravi   On Tue, 26 Apr 2011 22:48:13 , Faizan Jawed <phaizan@gmail.com> wrote We might remember (almost) lampooning Roger Davidheiser's vision contained in "The Third Generation Roadway:Metropolitan Transport for the 21st Century". It seems it is turning to reality in New Delhi. Some "interesting" bits of text has been highlighted by me. Whatever happened to common sense! -Faizan ### * After Metro, now Pod Cars for Delhi? * *New Delhi: * Delhi may soon have a pod car system on the lines of those in many western cities under which battery operated automated pods, having a capacity to carry up to six passengers, will offer transportation from point to point. Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit, after witnessing a presentation, asked Delhi Integrated Multi Modal Transit System Limited (DIMTS) and Transport Department to prepare a detailed project report (DPR) on introduction of the pollution free transport system in the city. Pod car system is a public transportation mode featuring small automated vehicles operating on a network of specially-built tracks. In pod car system, vehicles are sized for individual or small group travel, typically carrying no more than six passengers per vehicle. After the presentation, Dikshit said her government is keen to take it up as a pilot project in areas such as Dwarka, Karol Bagh, East Delhi and Delhi University North Campus. "It will definitely supplement the existing modes of public transport and will come up as an alternative to the personal vehicles," Dikshit said. Transport department officials said the new system may be termed as a personal rapid transit. The private company, which gave the presentation on the project, has offered to commission it with its own resources. "Further it will be economically viable as far as the commuters are concerned. The average fare of the pod will come to be around Rs. 6 per km," said the official. http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/after-metro-now-pod-cars-for-delhi-101691 -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From ashok.sreenivas at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 17:23:56 2011 From: ashok.sreenivas at gmail.com (Ashok Sreenivas) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 13:53:56 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: <135410.46840.qm@web55804.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <473611.60988.qm@web55807.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <135410.46840.qm@web55804.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Sonal Can you help and elaborate? It would be interesting to get an idea about, for example, the cost of the infrastructure required, the energy requirements and sources, what part of the cost would be borne by the public/state and what by the end users, who is it targeted at, what are the operating and maintenance costs, subsidy requirements, carrying capacities, safety features, comparative evaluation with respect to other modes etc. I believe Dal and many others on this list have a lot of reasons to be sceptical about many so-called solutions that keep cropping up but are basically just (apology if the phrase offends) costly technical fantasies of dubious utility. BTW, like Dal I'm not from Delhi but unlike him I'm from an Indian city (Pune) - hope that increases the legitimacy of my question a bit? You could reply off-list if others are not interested. Thanks. Regards Ashok On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 2:35 AM, Dal Maluf wrote: > I'm sorry Sonal, I didn't want to be unfair with this PRT proposal, even > because I don't much about it, but it just seems unreal... > > If it's a good and sustainable system, wonderfull... But most times I've > seen these type of "magical solutions", they consume a lot of resources and > time from our governments, with very little deliverables... > > I imagine a PRT system all over Delhi would cost billions of dollars, > and how many people would it move around? 1% of the total trips? 2% of the > total? I don't need to known much about Delhi, to guess that more than > 60-70% of public transportation users are in the buses, just because it's > the only systems that can get people close to their homes, and deliver them > close to their jobs... London, Sao Paulo, Mexico City, or any large > developing world city has more people in buses than on subway and that's a > reality that won't change. I hear my friends from the subway agencies in > Brazil saying that they will increase their share in public transportation > for ages, and only buses have increased more their share in comparison to > the extra trips... That's a fact. > > I hope this PRT case is different, but my personal guess is that only BRT > can really adress the increase in revenues, which means more cars and more > trips in Delhi... I hope your PRT proposal goes well, but I just can't > imagine how hard it would be to build a comprehensive PRT system all over > such a huge metropolis... > > It just seems impossible and unfeasible to me under the finantial realities > that our large developing world cities face... > > Good look... > > Best, > Adalberto > > De: "Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds)" > Para: dalmaluf@yahoo.com > Enviadas: Ter?a-feira, 26 de Abril de 2011 16:29 > Assunto: Re: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister > > Dear Dal, > > What's wrong in delivering a sustainable system for a city. What do you > know about Delhi? What is your real counter argument? > > Have you been in the system. Please don't compare Monorail to PRT. I will > be happy to help and elaborate. > > With warm regards, > Sonal > > Sonal Ahuja > Director International Development, > > CAPITA SYMONDS > Technology Transport and Infrastructure > > Level 7, 52 Grosvenor Gardens, Belgravia, > London, SW1W 0AU, > United Kingdom > > Tel: +44 (0) 77 88 666 523 > Fax: +44 (0) 20 7870 9399 > Email: sonal.ahuja@capita.co.uk > Web: www.capitasymonds.co.uk > Skype: aonalahuja > India Mobile: 0091 (0)9310 30 6484 > > Capita Symonds Ltd registered office: 71 Victoria Street, Westminster, > London SW1H 0XA. Registered in England No. 2018542 > > Part of the Capita Group Plc. www.capita.co.uk > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dal Maluf [mailto:dalmaluf@yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 08:16 PM > To: Carlosfelipe Pardo ; Faizan Jawed < > phaizan@gmail.com> > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister > > Is it serious? > > Come on? Large cities in the developing world, like Delhi, Mumbai, Beijing, > Rio de Janeiro or Sao Paulo, where I come from, need to invest in "large > scale" network of public transportation systens that can carry 20,30 40 > thousand persons per hour/directon, and the only way to do it is in the > existing infra-structure on the surface (taking private cars out, and > leaving the space for BRTs or LRT)... > > Monorails, PRT and all these "futuristic ideas" don't do anything good to > our cities, rather than taking our the attention of public officials > on where they should been focusing their priorities.... Here in Sao Paulo, > because of the "monorail dream" that JICA brought to the Mayor, we > "lost 2 years" studyng these "futuristic" proposals, wasted millions of > dollars in project, and now they are all abondoned, but the worst part of it > was that we didn't deliver the BRTs which were planned, and only last year > we came back to the long term agenda of investing in BRTs, bycicle and good > sidewalks, which represents 70% of all trips in Sao Paulo!!! > > The only way to really mitigate urban congestion, improve air quality and > allow more social inclusion to all the City, at the same time that it > delivers "affordable options" of mobility to all the population is investing > in BRT systems with good sidewalks and bicycle. Subways, in some very > speciffic cases where high density and millions of trips in the same > direction, could also be an option, but generally, BRTs are the best "cost x > effective" solution... > > We got to stop dreaming and "losing" time with these futuristic dreams... > We need solutions, now! > > > De: Carlosfelipe Pardo > Para: Faizan Jawed > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Enviadas: Ter?a-feira, 26 de Abril de 2011 15:58 > Assunto: Re: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister > > I can only imagine a replication of Bruno Latour's "Aramis".... > > On 26/04/2011 12:18 p.m., Faizan Jawed wrote: > > We might remember (almost) lampooning Roger Davidheiser's vision > contained > > in "The Third Generation Roadway:Metropolitan Transport for the 21st > > Century". It seems it is turning to reality in New Delhi. Some > "interesting" > > bits of text has been highlighted by me. Whatever happened to common > sense! > > > > -Faizan > > > > ### > > * After Metro, now Pod Cars for Delhi? * > > *New Delhi: * Delhi may soon have a pod car system on the lines of those > in > > many western cities under which battery operated automated pods, having a > > capacity to carry up to six passengers, will offer transportation from > point > > to point. > > > > Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit, after witnessing a presentation, > asked > > Delhi Integrated Multi Modal Transit System Limited (DIMTS) and Transport > > Department to prepare a detailed project report (DPR) on introduction of > the > > pollution free transport system in the city. > > > > Pod car system is a public transportation mode featuring small automated > > vehicles operating on a network of specially-built tracks. In pod car > > system, vehicles are sized for individual or small group travel, > typically > > carrying no more than six passengers per vehicle. > > > > After the presentation, Dikshit said her government is keen to take it up > as > > a pilot project in areas such as Dwarka, Karol Bagh, East Delhi and Delhi > > University North Campus. > > > > "It will definitely supplement the existing modes of public transport and > > will come up as an alternative to the personal vehicles," Dikshit said. > > > > Transport department officials said the new system may be termed as a > > personal rapid transit. > > > > The private company, which gave the presentation on the project, has > offered > > to commission it with its own resources. > > > > "Further it will be economically viable as far as the commuters are > > concerned. The average fare of the pod will come to be around Rs. 6 per > km," > > said the official. > > > > > http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/after-metro-now-pod-cars-for-delhi-101691 > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan > service. > > This email and any attachment to it are confidential. Unless you are the > intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose either the message or > any information contained in the message. If you are not the intended > recipient, you should delete this email and notify the sender immediately. > > Any views or opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender only, > unless otherwise stated. All copyright in any Capita material in this email > is reserved. > > All emails, incoming and outgoing, may be recorded by Capita and monitored > for legitimate business purposes. > > Capita exclude all liability for any loss or damage arising or resulting > from the receipt, use or transmission of this email to the fullest extent > permitted by law. > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- Ashok Sreenivas Prayas Energy Group and Parisar From patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 17:25:20 2011 From: patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com (Sujit Patwardhan) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 13:55:20 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: <1303838293.S.9563.7873.H.TkZhaXphbiBKYXdlZABbc3VzdHJhbl0gUFJUIHByb3Bvc2FsIGZvciBEZWxoaSBjb252aW5jZXMgQ2hpZWY_.pro-237-234.old.1303890402.27345@webmail.rediffmail.com> References: <1303838293.S.9563.7873.H.TkZhaXphbiBKYXdlZABbc3VzdHJhbl0gUFJUIHByb3Bvc2FsIGZvciBEZWxoaSBjb252aW5jZXMgQ2hpZWY_.pro-237-234.old.1303890402.27345@webmail.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: We should write to the Chief Minister and explain to her that what Delhi needs is more facilities for public transport (large capacity vehicles) and not PRT which is actually another form of Personal Transport that actually needs to be discouraged. -- Sujit On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Rajendra Ravi wrote: > Dear Faizan,Our Chief Minister and other Political leaders want to Show as >  Delhi a World class  Transport Museum where different mode of > transport will be experimented with Delhi citizen. > Rajendra Ravi   > > On Tue, 26 Apr 2011 22:48:13 , Faizan Jawed <phaizan@gmail.com> > wrote > We might remember (almost) lampooning Roger Davidheiser's vision contained > > in "The Third Generation Roadway:Metropolitan Transport for the 21st > > Century". It seems it is turning to reality in New Delhi. Some > "interesting" > > bits of text has been highlighted by me. Whatever happened to common sense! > > > > -Faizan > > > > ### > > * After Metro, now Pod Cars for Delhi? * > > *New Delhi: * Delhi may soon have a pod car system on the lines of those in > > many western cities under which battery operated automated pods, having a > > capacity to carry up to six passengers, will offer transportation from > point > > to point. > > > > Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit, after witnessing a presentation, asked > > Delhi Integrated Multi Modal Transit System Limited (DIMTS) and Transport > > Department to prepare a detailed project report (DPR) on introduction of > the > > pollution free transport system in the city. > > > > Pod car system is a public transportation mode featuring small automated > > vehicles operating on a network of specially-built tracks. In pod car > > system, vehicles are sized for individual or small group travel, typically > > carrying no more than six passengers per vehicle. > > > > After the presentation, Dikshit said her government is keen to take it up > as > > a pilot project in areas such as Dwarka, Karol Bagh, East Delhi and Delhi > > University North Campus. > > > > "It will definitely supplement the existing modes of public transport and > > will come up as an alternative to the personal vehicles," Dikshit said. > > > > Transport department officials said the new system may be termed as a > > personal rapid transit. > > > > The private company, which gave the presentation on the project, has > offered > > to commission it with its own resources. > > > > "Further it will be economically viable as far as the commuters are > > concerned. The average fare of the pod will come to be around Rs. 6 per > km," > > said the official. > > > > > http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/after-metro-now-pod-cars-for-delhi-101691 > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- *?..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment to destroy the city?* Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel Munich 1970 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sujit Patwardhan patwardhan.sujit@gmail.com sujit@parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India Tel: +91 20 25537955 Cell: +91 98220 26627 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Parisar: www.parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Wed Apr 27 18:43:55 2011 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric britton) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 11:43:55 +0200 Subject: [sustran] PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: References: <1303838293.S.9563.7873.H.TkZhaXphbiBKYXdlZABbc3VzdHJhbl0gUFJUIHByb3Bvc2FsIGZvciBEZWxoaSBjb252aW5jZXMgQ2hpZWY_.pro-237-234.old.1303890402.27345@webmail.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <010901cc04bf$a221f1e0$e665d5a0$@britton@ecoplan.org> This is a nice lively discussion, and I thought it might add a bit of value if we posted it to World Streets (even if we are supposed to be closed as we seek financial support to keep going) and popped a poll in there for your voting pleasure. You will see the full story at http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/prt-proposal-for-delhi-convinces-chief-minister-but-does-it-convince-you-see-poll-results/ Let's see what kind of consensus, divergence, trends if any we get here. What is more beautiful and encouraging than informed active citizens who make their voices heard. Vote! From datar.ashok at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 02:43:41 2011 From: datar.ashok at gmail.com (ashok datar) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 23:13:41 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: <-9161617130153268274@unknownmsgid> References: <1303838293.S.9563.7873.H.TkZhaXphbiBKYXdlZABbc3VzdHJhbl0gUFJUIHByb3Bvc2FsIGZvciBEZWxoaSBjb252aW5jZXMgQ2hpZWY_.pro-237-234.old.1303890402.27345@webmail.rediffmail.com> <-9161617130153268274@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: it is a very lively and serious debate on this new "toy" , may be good for very select uses at airports etc but cant be a sensible option for other major areas in any large and complex city. in fact, we need to have overall restraint policy for the urbanization as such all over if we want to cope with congestion, pollution, energy and sustainabiliy I think the cities need to degrow beyond a certain level they must remain within ground level transportation - preferably bussing ( i.e. when u cant walk or bike ) hopefully for most worktrips and other regular trips for education as well - it should be walking or biking oriented and then the BRTS and only in rare cases, taxies and hired personal cars for occasional uses so that we go towards miniimizning private, individually owned cars and provide more dense but low carbon impact and sustaibly green habitat we cant have all comforts which are based on personal car and then try to reject it we need to work towards alternate design of living especially in sustainable manner as global availability of energy, food, water is going to be liimited and need to equitably available and transport is a crtical element in the way we live especially in large urban societies based on exploitation of rural pop which can also be more sustainabale and "urban" with new techonlogies can we think altogether differently - not too radically ashok datar On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:13 PM, eric britton wrote: > This is a nice lively discussion, and I thought it might add a bit of value > if we posted it to World Streets (even if we are supposed to be closed as we > seek financial support to keep going) and popped a poll in there for your > voting pleasure. You will see the full story at > http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/prt-proposal-for-delhi-convinces-chief-minister-but-does-it-convince-you-see-poll-results/ > > Let's see what kind of consensus, divergence, trends if any we get here. > > What is more beautiful and encouraging than informed active citizens who > make their voices heard. > > Vote! > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- Ashok R.Datar Mumbai Environmental Social Network 20 Madhavi, Makarand Society, S.V.S.Marg, Mahim-400 016 98676 65107/0222 444 9212 see our website : www.mesn.org * I hear, then I forget. I see, then I remember. I do, then I understand.* From schipper at berkeley.edu Thu Apr 28 02:52:20 2011 From: schipper at berkeley.edu (Lee Schipper) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 10:52:20 -0700 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: References: <1303838293.S.9563.7873.H.TkZhaXphbiBKYXdlZABbc3VzdHJhbl0gUFJUIHByb3Bvc2FsIGZvciBEZWxoaSBjb252aW5jZXMgQ2hpZWY_.pro-237-234.old.1303890402.27345@webmail.rediffmail.com> <-9161617130153268274@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: I will copy this to Sarath Guttikunda begin_of_the_skype_highlighting?????end_of_the_skype_highlighting of Delhi. Can the Moderator admit him? he has some amazing MoUD data on accessibility and mobility (number of people traveling less than 15 minutes to work) for dozens of Indian cities, and the number taking mass transit. The largest cities in India fail..its a mess..the medium sized cities (like Pune) are doing a bit better, but the "small" cities (ahem, small compared to Delhi or Mumbai) offer more near=by access, consistent with what Ashok Dator said. -- Lee Schipper, Ph.D Project Scientist Global Metropolitan Studies http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/ Street/Mail Address: UC Berkeley Global Metropolitan Studies 1950 Addison 2nd floor, Berkeley. Berkeley CA 94704-2647 +1 510 642 6889, FAX +1 510 642 6061 Cell +1 202 262 7476 skype: mrmeter > it is a very lively and serious debate on this new "toy" , may be good for > very select uses at airports etc but cant be a sensible option for other > major areas in any large and complex city. > in fact, we need to have overall restraint policy for the urbanization as > such all over > if we want to cope with congestion, pollution, energy and sustainabiliy > I think the cities need to degrow beyond a certain level > they must remain within ground level transportation - preferably bussing ( > i.e. when u cant walk or bike ) > hopefully for most worktrips and other regular trips for education as well > - > it should be walking or biking oriented and then the BRTS > and only in rare cases, taxies and hired personal cars for occasional uses > so that we go towards miniimizning private, individually owned cars and > provide more dense but low carbon impact and sustaibly green habitat > we cant have all comforts which are based on personal car and then try to > reject it > we need to work towards alternate design of living especially in > sustainable > manner as global availability of energy, food, water is going to be > liimited > and need to equitably available and transport is a crtical element in the > way we live especially in large urban societies based on exploitation of > rural pop which can also be more sustainabale and "urban" with new > techonlogies > can we think altogether differently - not too radically > ashok datar > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:13 PM, eric britton > wrote: > >> This is a nice lively discussion, and I thought it might add a bit of >> value >> if we posted it to World Streets (even if we are supposed to be closed >> as we >> seek financial support to keep going) and popped a poll in there for >> your >> voting pleasure. You will see the full story at >> http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/prt-proposal-for-delhi-convinces-chief-minister-but-does-it-convince-you-see-poll-results/ >> >> Let's see what kind of consensus, divergence, trends if any we get here. >> >> What is more beautiful and encouraging than informed active citizens who >> make their voices heard. >> >> Vote! >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> > > > > -- > Ashok R.Datar > Mumbai Environmental Social Network > 20 Madhavi, Makarand Society, S.V.S.Marg, Mahim-400 016 > 98676 65107/0222 444 9212 see our website : www.mesn.org > > * I hear, then I forget. I see, then I remember. I do, then I > understand.* > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > From bruun at seas.upenn.edu Thu Apr 28 03:11:56 2011 From: bruun at seas.upenn.edu (bruun at seas.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 14:11:56 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: References: <1303838293.S.9563.7873.H.TkZhaXphbiBKYXdlZABbc3VzdHJhbl0gUFJUIHByb3Bvc2FsIGZvciBEZWxoaSBjb252aW5jZXMgQ2hpZWY_.pro-237-234.old.1303890402.27345@webmail.rediffmail.com> <-9161617130153268274@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <20110427141156.131454u55wu1c4to@webmail.seas.upenn.edu> PRT is continually being pushed, but it ultimately doesn't really make sense. It combines the low capacity of an automobile based system with the high infrastructure costs of a rail based system. Proponents will say it costs a LOT less per mile than rail modes, but there are two counter arguments: 1) It needs a LOT more miles of construction, and 2) costs don't go down in direct proportion to size or capacity. Furthermore, even if the finances made sense, PRT networks physically can't be constructed in any size. Grade separation is required where ever lines cross, thus necessitating cloverleaf interchanges or something similar. The space requirements preclude doing this in very many places. The Pod Car (even more so the dual mode PRT showing a rubber tired car on the track that is on the cover of the book) is another case of someone or some company believing in a perfect mode that solves many problems. Instead, each mode has a different optimum domain, and in the case of cities like Delhi, the Metro, the underdeveloped regional rail, the BRTS that is in its infancy, and even regular bus routes, bicycle routes and pedestrian pavements all need steady improvement and/or expansion. Eric Bruun Quoting Lee Schipper : > I will copy this to Sarath Guttikunda > begin_of_the_skype_highlighting?????end_of_the_skype_highlighting of > Delhi. Can the Moderator admit him? > he has some amazing MoUD data on accessibility and mobility (number of > people traveling less than 15 minutes to work) for dozens of Indian > cities, and the number taking mass transit. The largest cities in India > fail..its a mess..the medium sized cities (like Pune) are doing a bit > better, but the "small" cities (ahem, small compared to Delhi or Mumbai) > offer more near=by access, consistent with what Ashok Dator said. > -- > Lee Schipper, Ph.D > Project Scientist > Global Metropolitan Studies > http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/ > > Street/Mail Address: > UC Berkeley Global Metropolitan Studies > 1950 Addison 2nd floor, Berkeley. > Berkeley CA 94704-2647 > > > +1 510 642 6889, > FAX +1 510 642 6061 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > skype: mrmeter > > > >> it is a very lively and serious debate on this new "toy" , may be good for >> very select uses at airports etc but cant be a sensible option for other >> major areas in any large and complex city. >> in fact, we need to have overall restraint policy for the urbanization as >> such all over >> if we want to cope with congestion, pollution, energy and sustainabiliy >> I think the cities need to degrow beyond a certain level >> they must remain within ground level transportation - preferably bussing ( >> i.e. when u cant walk or bike ) >> hopefully for most worktrips and other regular trips for education as well >> - >> it should be walking or biking oriented and then the BRTS >> and only in rare cases, taxies and hired personal cars for occasional uses >> so that we go towards miniimizning private, individually owned cars and >> provide more dense but low carbon impact and sustaibly green habitat >> we cant have all comforts which are based on personal car and then try to >> reject it >> we need to work towards alternate design of living especially in >> sustainable >> manner as global availability of energy, food, water is going to be >> liimited >> and need to equitably available and transport is a crtical element in the >> way we live especially in large urban societies based on exploitation of >> rural pop which can also be more sustainabale and "urban" with new >> techonlogies >> can we think altogether differently - not too radically >> ashok datar >> >> On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:13 PM, eric britton >> wrote: >> >>> This is a nice lively discussion, and I thought it might add a bit of >>> value >>> if we posted it to World Streets (even if we are supposed to be closed >>> as we >>> seek financial support to keep going) and popped a poll in there for >>> your >>> voting pleasure. You will see the full story at >>> http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/prt-proposal-for-delhi-convinces-chief-minister-but-does-it-convince-you-see-poll-results/ >>> >>> Let's see what kind of consensus, divergence, trends if any we get here. >>> >>> What is more beautiful and encouraging than informed active citizens who >>> make their voices heard. >>> >>> Vote! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >>> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >>> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >>> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >>> >>> ================================================================ >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >>> (the 'Global South'). >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ashok R.Datar >> Mumbai Environmental Social Network >> 20 Madhavi, Makarand Society, S.V.S.Marg, Mahim-400 016 >> 98676 65107/0222 444 9212 see our website : www.mesn.org >> >> * I hear, then I forget. I see, then I remember. I do, then I >> understand.* >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries (the 'Global South'). From hghazali at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 13:44:33 2011 From: hghazali at gmail.com (Hassaan Ghazali) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 09:44:33 +0500 Subject: [sustran] Op ed column: Lahore Mass Transit System Message-ID: Folks, Please find below the link to my op-ed column on the Lahore Mass Transit System which was published in Pakistan Today on 28 Apr, 2011 http://epaper.pakistantoday.com.pk/E-Paper/Lahore/2011-04-28/page-13/detail-3 Regards, Hassaan From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Thu Apr 28 14:20:33 2011 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric britton) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 07:20:33 +0200 Subject: [sustran] PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister Message-ID: <005a01cc0564$01c5a3e0$0550eba0$@britton@ecoplan.org> This compendium prepared by Ken Avidor, while passionate, is certainly worth a good look as we try to develop a balanced view about our topic. Thank you Ken. And if any readers here are not in agreement, well that is what these peer group discussions are all about. Please join in and share with us your information and views. In a comment to World Streets yesterday, PRT developer Palle R Jensen (you can find his site at http://www.ruf.dk/) challenged with the statement: " Look seriously at the numbers, please." Which, I believe is exactly what this is all about. Eric Britton # # # From: Ken Avidor [mailto:ken.avidor@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, 27 April, 2011 19:38 To: editor@worldstreets.org Subject: PRT Not Happening in India or Anywhere Else Eric, The PRT hucksters have been cranking out press releases since the 1950's that PRT is happening somewhere - but it never does. When a much ballyhooed PRT proposal or test facility goes belly-up (and they always do), you don't hear about it, do you? With PRT, there is no "there" there. If people want to know what PRT is really about, send them to my blog: http://prtboondoggle.blogspot.com/ Thanks, -Avidor PS: Attached is a screenshot of description of a PRT bill sponsored by Michele Bachmann - that should give you an idea of the sort of people who promote PRT. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2004_PRT_Olson&BachmannBill.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 105168 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20110428/95b8c5d8/2004_PRT_OlsonBachmannBill-0001.jpg From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Thu Apr 28 14:35:23 2011 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric britton) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 07:35:23 +0200 Subject: [sustran] PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister Message-ID: <008101cc0566$143ee110$3cbca330$@britton@ecoplan.org> Dear colleagues, Here is how the World Streets poll results at http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/prt-proposal-for-delhi-convince s-chief-minister-but-does-it-convince-you-see-poll-results/ look after less than 24 hours. It's an interesting spread, and we can clearly hear the voices of PRT proponents up top (bearing in mind that visitors are invited to indicate up to two items each. While most of the respondents contented themselves with a single entry, the PRT proponents were a bit more ambitious. To me this already says a lot. Perhaps if you have not yet logged with your views, you may wish to do so now. Also please feel free to invite colleagues who are following or wish to follow these issues to join us. Eric Britton PRT for Delhi? Yes, No, I don't know Excellent idea. Do it now. 6.12% (3 votes) Looks promising. Let's give it serious study 4.08% (2 votes) Hard to say at this point. Need more info before making a decision. 4.08% (2 votes) Looks rather weak. Probably not a priority at this point. 0% (0 votes) Too uncertain, too expensive, too slow and too marginal to make the needed contribution. 18.37% (9 votes) You have to know the specifics of Delhi to have an informed view on this technology solution. 4.08% (2 votes) Probably not for the Global South, but maybe a winner for other parts of the world. 6.12% (3 votes) A bad idea for Delhi and most certainly a bad idea for any other city in the world 14.29% (7 votes) Quite an old fashioned idea really. Looked bad if naively tempting in 1970, but looks simply stupid today 16.33% (8 votes) This is a truly shameful, bizarre, irresponsible idea flaunted by interested parties and should be consigned to the trash heap if irresponsible ideas immediately. 16.33% (8 votes) (Please read my comment that follows below.) 6.12% (3 votes) Other: 4.08% (2 votes) Total Votes: 49 n To record your vote go to http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/prt-proposal-for-delhi-convince s-chief-minister-but-does-it-convince-you-see-poll-results/ From gsbravi026 at yahoo.co.in Thu Apr 28 14:59:31 2011 From: gsbravi026 at yahoo.co.in (ravi gadepalli) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 11:29:31 +0530 (IST) Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister Message-ID: <277101.73902.qm@web137303.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Sonal, I work with an Urban Transport consultancy in Delhi and also worked on a demand estimation project for PRT in GIFT city, Gujarat, India.? I hope that makes me reasonably qualified to? put forward my understanding of the PRT. The peak speed of the POD is about 40 kmph. But when you take the access, egress, waiting? and transfer times, we observed in our study for GIFT city that people have lesser travel time cycling or in many cases even walking. This without even considering the travel cost. Cost of construction of PRT is around Rs 40 crore/km (about USD 8 million per km) and its function is to serve as a feeder mode to Metro/BRT.. The cost of BRT will be Rs 10 crore/km (about USD 8 million per km). Even though the cost for the passenger is fixed at Rs 6/km, the social cost will be higher. So, the feeder mode is going to cost more than the main? line. The other point put in favour of the PRT is that it can work in narrow lanes, like the one's being designed for Lucknow. We have narrow lanes in the Old city areas of most of our cities, which were primarily designed for walking. Why would we need to tamper with that for PRT, which is intended for the same purpose i.e. accessing the main PT lines on the arterials. But PRT has good symbolic value. Like Flyovers and Metros, they are there towering in front of everyone and hence can be claimed as an achievement of the government. Might be useful for the next election. Along the way, the contractors and the executing agencies have some work. So, we cant deny that it benefits some people at least. Regards, Ravi Gadepalli, i-Trans Pvt. Ltd., TBIU, IIT Delhi, New Delhi. --- On Wed, 27/4/11, Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds) wrote: From: Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds) Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister To: alok.priyanka@gmail.com, aashu.gupta20@gmail.com Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Date: Wednesday, 27 April, 2011, 10:11 AM Indeed this system, must be seen complimentary, metros don't attract the car users due to interchange and park and ride problems, PRT is seen to an effective complementary system that offer cleaner, convenient and more efficient system than riding a car. Its not the only solution but yet another system that city planners and engineers can use to solve the problem of urban congestion and pollution along with promoting walking, cycling and an effective bus system. PRT must be seen a part of effective comprehensive urban transit strategy and not in isolation. With warm regards, Sonal Sonal Ahuja Director International Development, CAPITA SYMONDS Technology Transport and Infrastructure Level 7, 52 Grosvenor Gardens, Belgravia, London, SW1W 0AU, United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0) 77 88 666 523 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7870 9399 Email: sonal.ahuja@capita.co.uk Web: www.capitasymonds.co.uk?? Skype: aonalahuja India Mobile: 0091 (0)9310 30 6484 Capita Symonds Ltd? registered office: 71 Victoria Street, Westminster, London SW1H 0XA. Registered in England No. 2018542 Part of the Capita Group Plc.? www.capita.co.uk? Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail ----- Original Message ----- From: Jains [mailto:alok.priyanka@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 05:15 AM To: Aashish Gupta Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister I am surprised that the entire discussion is going towards "substitution" not "complementarity". Delhi already has very ambitious plans for Metros (which are full to the brim - coming from personal experience) and BRT, but there is a strong need to curb private vehicle growth. PRT though tad expensive, could be a perfect feeder system to BRT and Metros and for intra-zonal short-distance travel. Reporting from Delhi. Alok Jain On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 5:52 AM, Aashish Gupta wrote: > And Rs 6 per Kilometer is just so expensive! And thats assuming that the > claim of Rs 6 per kilometer will stay. > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. This email and any attachment to it are confidential.? Unless you are the intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose either the message or any information contained in the message. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this email and notify the sender immediately. Any views or opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender only, unless otherwise stated.? All copyright in any Capita material in this email is reserved. All emails, incoming and outgoing, may be recorded by Capita and monitored for legitimate business purposes. Capita exclude all liability for any loss or damage arising or resulting from the receipt, use or transmission of this email to the fullest extent permitted by law. -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From vissu.indian at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 16:40:10 2011 From: vissu.indian at gmail.com (Visweswar) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 13:10:10 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: <277101.73902.qm@web137303.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <277101.73902.qm@web137303.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The real big question is does Delhi and India need such capital intensive low capacity fancy systems when we can achieve much much higher capacities through proper planning of the conventional Public transport systems like the BRT. If these investments are spent on improving existing infrastructure and roads it makes more sense. The Government shall understand and prioritise investments rather than opting for fancy systems. Public Transport is an important duty of any responsible govt but not "the only" duty, India is in a dear need of many other basic necessities like education and health. These sectors according to me are more important than anything else. What's the use of your pod cars when you are not able to provide health and education facilities to any acceptable level to its citizens? I disagree with someone's suggestion that pod cars should be used as complimentary system to BRT and Metro. Providing a well planned bus network in any city with walk and NMT as major access modes would be more acceptable, cheaper and sustainable in the long run. BRT and bus systems would be a better option to feed metros but not atleast pod taxis. I really can't understand how and when pod taxis have become sustainable and more acceptable as feeder services as opposed to walk and cycling. On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:29 AM, ravi gadepalli wrote: > Dear Sonal, > > I work with an Urban Transport consultancy in Delhi and also worked on a > demand estimation project for PRT in GIFT city, Gujarat, India. I hope that > makes me reasonably qualified to put forward my understanding of the PRT. > > The peak speed of the POD is about 40 kmph. But when you take the access, > egress, waiting and transfer times, we observed in our study for GIFT city > that people have > lesser travel time cycling or in many cases even walking. This without > even considering the travel cost. > > Cost of construction of PRT is around Rs 40 crore/km (about USD 8 million > per km) and its function is to serve as a feeder mode to Metro/BRT.. The > cost of BRT will be Rs 10 crore/km (about USD 8 million per km). Even though > the cost for the passenger is fixed at Rs 6/km, the social cost will be > higher. So, the feeder mode is going to cost more than the main line. > > The other point put in favour of the PRT is that it can work in narrow > lanes, like the one's being designed for Lucknow. We have narrow lanes > in the Old city areas of most of our cities, which were primarily > designed for walking. Why would we need to tamper with that for PRT, > which is intended for the same purpose i.e. accessing the main PT lines > on the arterials. > > But PRT has good symbolic value. Like Flyovers and Metros, they are there > towering in front of everyone and hence can be claimed as an achievement of > the government. Might be useful for the next election. Along the way, the > contractors and the executing agencies have some work. So, we cant deny that > it benefits some people at least. > > Regards, > > Ravi Gadepalli, > i-Trans Pvt. Ltd., > TBIU, IIT Delhi, > New Delhi. > > > > > > --- On Wed, 27/4/11, Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds) < > Sonal.Ahuja@capita.co.uk> wrote: > > From: Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds) > Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister > To: alok.priyanka@gmail.com, > aashu.gupta20@gmail.com > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Date: Wednesday, 27 April, 2011, 10:11 AM > > Indeed this system, must be seen complimentary, metros don't attract the > car users due to interchange and park and ride problems, PRT is seen to an > effective complementary system that offer cleaner, convenient and more > efficient system than riding a car. Its not the only solution but yet > another system that city planners and engineers can use to solve the problem > of urban congestion and pollution along with promoting walking, cycling and > an effective bus system. PRT must be seen a part of effective comprehensive > urban transit strategy and not in isolation. > > > With warm regards, > Sonal > > Sonal Ahuja > Director International Development, > > CAPITA SYMONDS > Technology Transport and Infrastructure > > Level 7, 52 Grosvenor Gardens, Belgravia, > London, SW1W 0AU, > United Kingdom > > Tel: > +44 (0) 77 88 666 523 > Fax: +44 (0) 20 7870 9399 > Email: sonal.ahuja@capita.co.uk > Web: www.capitasymonds.co.uk > Skype: aonalahuja > India Mobile: 0091 (0)9310 30 6484 > > Capita Symonds Ltd registered office: 71 Victoria Street, Westminster, > London SW1H 0XA. Registered in England No. 2018542 > > Part of the Capita Group Plc. www.capita.co.uk > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jains [mailto:alok.priyanka@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 05:15 AM > To: Aashish Gupta > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister > > I am surprised that the entire discussion is going towards > "substitution" not "complementarity". Delhi already has very ambitious > plans for Metros (which are full to the brim - coming from personal > experience) and BRT, but there is a strong need to curb private > vehicle growth. PRT though tad expensive, could be a perfect feeder > system to BRT and Metros and for intra-zonal short-distance travel. > > Reporting from Delhi. > Alok Jain > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 5:52 AM, Aashish Gupta > wrote: > > And Rs 6 per Kilometer is just so expensive! And thats assuming that the > > claim of Rs 6 per kilometer will stay. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a > forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable > transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on > developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan > service. > > This email and any attachment to it are confidential. Unless you are the > intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose either the message or > any information contained in the message. If you are not the intended > recipient, you should delete this email and notify the sender immediately. > > Any views or opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender only, > unless otherwise stated. All copyright in any Capita material in this email > is reserved. > > All emails, incoming and outgoing, may be recorded by Capita and monitored > for legitimate business purposes. > > Capita exclude all liability for any loss or damage arising or resulting > from the receipt, use or transmission of this email to the fullest extent > permitted by law. > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- Vissu Support Akshaya patra: Unlimited food for education ( http://www.akshayapatra.org/) Every small contribution makes a difference. From hghazali at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 16:58:31 2011 From: hghazali at gmail.com (Hassaan Ghazali) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:58:31 +0500 Subject: [sustran] Information on Norinco Message-ID: Folks, I'm gathering information on the company which is supposedly bring a mass transit system to my city. Anyone who is able to share information on Norinco's work in your respective countries is requested to please get in touch off-list. Thanks Hassaan From schipper at berkeley.edu Thu Apr 28 22:11:36 2011 From: schipper at berkeley.edu (Lee Schipper) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 06:11:36 -0700 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: <277101.73902.qm@web137303.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <277101.73902.qm@web137303.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5a1885ca2f158fc7841c0f668e049ff9.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> Ravi, can you re-express the cost as numbers in $/person-hour of capacity? Could be very telling -- Lee Schipper, Ph.D Project Scientist Global Metropolitan Studies http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/ Street/Mail Address: UC Berkeley Global Metropolitan Studies 1950 Addison 2nd floor, Berkeley. Berkeley CA 94704-2647 +1 510 642 6889, FAX +1 510 642 6061 Cell +1 202 262 7476 skype: mrmeter > Dear Sonal, > > I work with an Urban Transport consultancy in Delhi and also worked on a > demand estimation project for PRT in GIFT city, Gujarat, India.? I hope > that makes me reasonably qualified to? put forward my understanding of the > PRT. > > The peak speed of the POD is about 40 kmph. But when you take the access, > egress, waiting? and transfer times, we observed in our study for GIFT > city that people have > lesser travel time cycling or in many cases even walking. This without > even considering the travel cost. > > Cost of construction of PRT is around Rs 40 crore/km (about USD 8 million > per km) and its function is to serve as a feeder mode to Metro/BRT.. The > cost of BRT will be Rs 10 crore/km (about USD 8 million per km). Even > though the cost for the passenger is fixed at Rs 6/km, the social cost > will be higher. So, the feeder mode is going to cost more than the main? > line. > > The other point put in favour of the PRT is that it can work in narrow > lanes, like the one's being designed for Lucknow. We have narrow lanes > in the Old city areas of most of our cities, which were primarily > designed for walking. Why would we need to tamper with that for PRT, > which is intended for the same purpose i.e. accessing the main PT lines > on the arterials. > > But PRT has good symbolic value. Like Flyovers and Metros, they are there > towering in front of everyone and hence can be claimed as an achievement > of the government. Might be useful for the next election. Along the way, > the contractors and the executing agencies have some work. So, we cant > deny that it benefits some people at least. > > Regards, > > Ravi Gadepalli, > i-Trans Pvt. Ltd., > TBIU, IIT Delhi, > New Delhi. > > > > > > --- On Wed, 27/4/11, Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds) > wrote: > > From: Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds) > Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister > To: alok.priyanka@gmail.com, > aashu.gupta20@gmail.com > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Date: Wednesday, 27 April, 2011, 10:11 AM > > Indeed this system, must be seen complimentary, metros don't attract the > car users due to interchange and park and ride problems, PRT is seen to an > effective complementary system that offer cleaner, convenient and more > efficient system than riding a car. Its not the only solution but yet > another system that city planners and engineers can use to solve the > problem of urban congestion and pollution along with promoting walking, > cycling and an effective bus system. PRT must be seen a part of effective > comprehensive urban transit strategy and not in isolation. > > > With warm regards, > Sonal > > Sonal Ahuja > Director International Development, > > CAPITA SYMONDS > Technology Transport and Infrastructure > > Level 7, 52 Grosvenor Gardens, Belgravia, > London, SW1W 0AU, > United Kingdom > > Tel: > +44 (0) 77 88 666 523 > Fax: +44 (0) 20 7870 9399 > Email: sonal.ahuja@capita.co.uk > Web: www.capitasymonds.co.uk?? > Skype: aonalahuja > India Mobile: 0091 (0)9310 30 6484 > > Capita Symonds Ltd? registered office: 71 Victoria Street, Westminster, > London SW1H 0XA. Registered in England No. 2018542 > > Part of the Capita Group Plc.? www.capita.co.uk? > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jains [mailto:alok.priyanka@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 05:15 AM > To: Aashish Gupta > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister > > I am surprised that the entire discussion is going towards > "substitution" not "complementarity". Delhi already has very ambitious > plans for Metros (which are full to the brim - coming from personal > experience) and BRT, but there is a strong need to curb private > vehicle growth. PRT though tad expensive, could be a perfect feeder > system to BRT and Metros and for intra-zonal short-distance travel. > > Reporting from Delhi. > Alok Jain > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 5:52 AM, Aashish Gupta > wrote: >> And Rs 6 per Kilometer is just so expensive! And thats assuming that the >> claim of Rs 6 per kilometer will stay. >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a > forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable > transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). >> > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on > developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan > service. > > This email and any attachment to it are confidential.? Unless you are the > intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose either the message > or any information contained in the message. If you are not the intended > recipient, you should delete this email and notify the sender immediately. > > Any views or opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender > only, unless otherwise stated.? All copyright in any Capita material in > this email is reserved. > > All emails, incoming and outgoing, may be recorded by Capita and monitored > for legitimate business purposes. > > Capita exclude all liability for any loss or damage arising or resulting > from the receipt, use or transmission of this email to the fullest extent > permitted by law. > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > From sguttikunda at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 01:41:32 2011 From: sguttikunda at gmail.com (Sarath Guttikunda) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 22:11:32 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: References: <1303838293.S.9563.7873.H.TkZhaXphbiBKYXdlZABbc3VzdHJhbl0gUFJUIHByb3Bvc2FsIGZvciBEZWxoaSBjb252aW5jZXMgQ2hpZWY_.pro-237-234.old.1303890402.27345@webmail.rediffmail.com> <-9161617130153268274@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Dear Lee and Co., attached is a summary of the results published by Ministry of Urban Development in 2008-09 on the passenger travel trends and they tell a good story of where the cities are headed. Important messages on this page: - As the cities grew (in size of population, which is proxy to the geographical size), access to the work places in less than 15 mins travel time decreases - As the cities grew, the share of public transport in the form of bus transport (percent of passenger trips) increases - which is a good sign, meaning the cities are realizing the importance of promoting public transport and more efforts are headed that way as the cities expand - As the cities grew, the share of non-motorized transport in the form of walking and biking (percent of passenger trips) decreases - which is the sad part of the equation, meaning the role of cars and SUVs is overtaking the need to promote NMT - Lower the share of non-motorized transport in the city, lower the service index (% trips accessible in less than 15 mins travel time) and higher the congestion index, primarily due increase in the personal transport The access to public transport is growing, but not enough to support the travel demand growth in the big cities. Figure 3, top right panel, presents the share of passenger trips covered by the public transport against the population in the cities. The access to the public transport is high in the megacities, and expected to grow under the JNNURM funds. However, the lack of infrastructure in the bus manufacturing sector to supply the necessary With regards, Sarath -- Dr. Sarath Guttikunda, New Delhi, India UrbanEmissions.Info | TED Fellow | +1(202)683-0937 (till June) http://www.dri.edu/sarath-guttikunda On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 11:22 PM, Lee Schipper wrote: > I will copy this to Sarath Guttikunda > begin_of_the_skype_highlighting end_of_the_skype_highlighting of > Delhi. Can the Moderator admit him? > he has some amazing MoUD data on accessibility and mobility (number of > people traveling less than 15 minutes to work) for dozens of Indian > cities, and the number taking mass transit. The largest cities in India > fail..its a mess..the medium sized cities (like Pune) are doing a bit > better, but the "small" cities (ahem, small compared to Delhi or Mumbai) > offer more near=by access, consistent with what Ashok Dator said. > -- > Lee Schipper, Ph.D > Project Scientist > Global Metropolitan Studies > http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/ > > Street/Mail Address: > UC Berkeley Global Metropolitan Studies > 1950 Addison 2nd floor, Berkeley. > Berkeley CA 94704-2647 > > > +1 510 642 6889, > FAX +1 510 642 6061 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > skype: mrmeter > > > > > it is a very lively and serious debate on this new "toy" , may be good > for > > very select uses at airports etc but cant be a sensible option for other > > major areas in any large and complex city. > > in fact, we need to have overall restraint policy for the urbanization as > > such all over > > if we want to cope with congestion, pollution, energy and sustainabiliy > > I think the cities need to degrow beyond a certain level > > they must remain within ground level transportation - preferably bussing > ( > > i.e. when u cant walk or bike ) > > hopefully for most worktrips and other regular trips for education as > well > > - > > it should be walking or biking oriented and then the BRTS > > and only in rare cases, taxies and hired personal cars for occasional > uses > > so that we go towards miniimizning private, individually owned cars and > > provide more dense but low carbon impact and sustaibly green habitat > > we cant have all comforts which are based on personal car and then try to > > reject it > > we need to work towards alternate design of living especially in > > sustainable > > manner as global availability of energy, food, water is going to be > > liimited > > and need to equitably available and transport is a crtical element in the > > way we live especially in large urban societies based on exploitation of > > rural pop which can also be more sustainabale and "urban" with new > > techonlogies > > can we think altogether differently - not too radically > > ashok datar > > > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:13 PM, eric britton > > wrote: > > > >> This is a nice lively discussion, and I thought it might add a bit of > >> value > >> if we posted it to World Streets (even if we are supposed to be closed > >> as we > >> seek financial support to keep going) and popped a poll in there for > >> your > >> voting pleasure. You will see the full story at > >> > http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/prt-proposal-for-delhi-convinces-chief-minister-but-does-it-convince-you-see-poll-results/ > >> > >> Let's see what kind of consensus, divergence, trends if any we get here. > >> > >> What is more beautiful and encouraging than informed active citizens who > >> make their voices heard. > >> > >> Vote! > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >> > >> ================================================================ > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > >> (the 'Global South'). > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Ashok R.Datar > > Mumbai Environmental Social Network > > 20 Madhavi, Makarand Society, S.V.S.Marg, Mahim-400 016 > > 98676 65107/0222 444 9212 see our website : www.mesn.org > > > > * I hear, then I forget. I see, then I remember. I do, then I > > understand.* > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Passenger Transport in Indian Cities.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 77910 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20110428/a3f1886d/PassengerTransportinIndianCities-0001.pdf From bruun at seas.upenn.edu Fri Apr 29 07:37:33 2011 From: bruun at seas.upenn.edu (bruun at seas.upenn.edu) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 18:37:33 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: <277101.73902.qm@web137303.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <277101.73902.qm@web137303.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110428183733.451063o0nsanq8fh@webmail.seas.upenn.edu> The 40 kph peak speed might be irrelevant if the system is operating near capacity. If you look at the Lehner curves, there is always a speed at which capacity is maximized. It is down in the 18 kph range for small vehicles, while with large vehicles like metros it is up around 80-90 kph. Eric Bruun Quoting ravi gadepalli : > Dear Sonal, > > I work with an Urban Transport consultancy in Delhi and also worked > on a demand estimation project for PRT in GIFT city, Gujarat, > India.? I hope that makes me reasonably qualified to? put forward my > understanding of the PRT. > > The peak speed of the POD is about 40 kmph. But when you take the access, > egress, waiting? and transfer times, we observed in our study for > GIFT city that people have > lesser travel time cycling or in many cases even walking. This without > even considering the travel cost. > > Cost of construction of PRT is around Rs 40 crore/km (about USD 8 > million per km) and its function is to serve as a feeder mode to > Metro/BRT.. The cost of BRT will be Rs 10 crore/km (about USD 8 > million per km). Even though the cost for the passenger is fixed at > Rs 6/km, the social cost will be higher. So, the feeder mode is > going to cost more than the main? line. > > The other point put in favour of the PRT is that it can work in narrow > lanes, like the one's being designed for Lucknow. We have narrow lanes > in the Old city areas of most of our cities, which were primarily > designed for walking. Why would we need to tamper with that for PRT, > which is intended for the same purpose i.e. accessing the main PT lines > on the arterials. > > But PRT has good symbolic value. Like Flyovers and Metros, they are > there towering in front of everyone and hence can be claimed as an > achievement of the government. Might be useful for the next > election. Along the way, the contractors and the executing agencies > have some work. So, we cant deny that it benefits some people at > least. > > Regards, > > Ravi Gadepalli, > i-Trans Pvt. Ltd., > TBIU, IIT Delhi, > New Delhi. > > > > > > --- On Wed, 27/4/11, Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds) > wrote: > > From: Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds) > Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister > To: alok.priyanka@gmail.com, > aashu.gupta20@gmail.com > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Date: Wednesday, 27 April, 2011, 10:11 AM > > Indeed this system, must be seen complimentary, metros don't attract > the car users due to interchange and park and ride problems, PRT is > seen to an effective complementary system that offer cleaner, > convenient and more efficient system than riding a car. Its not the > only solution but yet another system that city planners and > engineers can use to solve the problem of urban congestion and > pollution along with promoting walking, cycling and an effective bus > system. PRT must be seen a part of effective comprehensive urban > transit strategy and not in isolation. > > > With warm regards, > Sonal > > Sonal Ahuja > Director International Development, > > CAPITA SYMONDS > Technology Transport and Infrastructure > > Level 7, 52 Grosvenor Gardens, Belgravia, > London, SW1W 0AU, > United Kingdom > > Tel: > +44 (0) 77 88 666 523 > Fax: +44 (0) 20 7870 9399 > Email: sonal.ahuja@capita.co.uk > Web: www.capitasymonds.co.uk?? > Skype: aonalahuja > India Mobile: 0091 (0)9310 30 6484 > > Capita Symonds Ltd? registered office: 71 Victoria Street, > Westminster, London SW1H 0XA. Registered in England No. 2018542 > > Part of the Capita Group Plc.? www.capita.co.uk? > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jains [mailto:alok.priyanka@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 05:15 AM > To: Aashish Gupta > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister > > I am surprised that the entire discussion is going towards > "substitution" not "complementarity". Delhi already has very ambitious > plans for Metros (which are full to the brim - coming from personal > experience) and BRT, but there is a strong need to curb private > vehicle growth. PRT though tad expensive, could be a perfect feeder > system to BRT and Metros and for intra-zonal short-distance travel. > > Reporting from Delhi. > Alok Jain > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 5:52 AM, Aashish Gupta > wrote: >> And Rs 6 per Kilometer is just so expensive! And thats assuming that the >> claim of Rs 6 per kilometer will stay. >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the >> real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a > forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and > sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the > 'Global South'). >> > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on > developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs > SkyScan service. > > This email and any attachment to it are confidential.? Unless you > are the intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose either > the message or any information contained in the message. If you are > not the intended recipient, you should delete this email and notify > the sender immediately. > > Any views or opinions expressed in this email are those of the > sender only, unless otherwise stated.? All copyright in any Capita > material in this email is reserved. > > All emails, incoming and outgoing, may be recorded by Capita and > monitored for legitimate business purposes. > > Capita exclude all liability for any loss or damage arising or > resulting from the receipt, use or transmission of this email to the > fullest extent permitted by law. > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries (the 'Global South'). > > From krc12353 at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 07:50:31 2011 From: krc12353 at gmail.com (Karthik Rao-Cavale) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 18:50:31 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: <5a1885ca2f158fc7841c0f668e049ff9.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> References: <277101.73902.qm@web137303.mail.in.yahoo.com> <5a1885ca2f158fc7841c0f668e049ff9.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Dear Dr. Schipper, The per mile costs, according to a report by VTC are $50 million for one-way guideway and $75 million for two-way guideway. The report can be found here. http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/big/PRTfinalreport.pdf The report suggests that capacity can be as high as 3000 persons per hour per direction, but 1000 is more realistic. karthik On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 9:11 AM, Lee Schipper wrote: > Ravi, can you re-express the cost as numbers in > > $/person-hour of capacity? > > Could be very telling > -- > Lee Schipper, Ph.D > Project Scientist > Global Metropolitan Studies > http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/ > > Street/Mail Address: > UC Berkeley Global Metropolitan Studies > 1950 Addison 2nd floor, Berkeley. > Berkeley CA 94704-2647 > > > +1 510 642 6889, > FAX +1 510 642 6061 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > skype: mrmeter > > > > > Dear Sonal, > > > > I work with an Urban Transport consultancy in Delhi and also worked on a > > demand estimation project for PRT in GIFT city, Gujarat, India. I hope > > that makes me reasonably qualified to put forward my understanding of > the > > PRT. > > > > The peak speed of the POD is about 40 kmph. But when you take the access, > > egress, waiting and transfer times, we observed in our study for GIFT > > city that people have > > lesser travel time cycling or in many cases even walking. This without > > even considering the travel cost. > > > > Cost of construction of PRT is around Rs 40 crore/km (about USD 8 million > > per km) and its function is to serve as a feeder mode to Metro/BRT.. The > > cost of BRT will be Rs 10 crore/km (about USD 8 million per km). Even > > though the cost for the passenger is fixed at Rs 6/km, the social cost > > will be higher. So, the feeder mode is going to cost more than the main > > line. > > > > The other point put in favour of the PRT is that it can work in narrow > > lanes, like the one's being designed for Lucknow. We have narrow lanes > > in the Old city areas of most of our cities, which were primarily > > designed for walking. Why would we need to tamper with that for PRT, > > which is intended for the same purpose i.e. accessing the main PT lines > > on the arterials. > > > > But PRT has good symbolic value. Like Flyovers and Metros, they are there > > towering in front of everyone and hence can be claimed as an achievement > > of the government. Might be useful for the next election. Along the way, > > the contractors and the executing agencies have some work. So, we cant > > deny that it benefits some people at least. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ravi Gadepalli, > > i-Trans Pvt. Ltd., > > TBIU, IIT Delhi, > > New Delhi. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 27/4/11, Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds) > > wrote: > > > > From: Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds) > > Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister > > To: alok.priyanka@gmail.com, > > aashu.gupta20@gmail.com > > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > > Date: Wednesday, 27 April, 2011, 10:11 AM > > > > Indeed this system, must be seen complimentary, metros don't attract the > > car users due to interchange and park and ride problems, PRT is seen to > an > > effective complementary system that offer cleaner, convenient and more > > efficient system than riding a car. Its not the only solution but yet > > another system that city planners and engineers can use to solve the > > problem of urban congestion and pollution along with promoting walking, > > cycling and an effective bus system. PRT must be seen a part of effective > > comprehensive urban transit strategy and not in isolation. > > > > > > With warm regards, > > Sonal > > > > Sonal Ahuja > > Director International Development, > > > > CAPITA SYMONDS > > Technology Transport and Infrastructure > > > > Level 7, 52 Grosvenor Gardens, Belgravia, > > London, SW1W 0AU, > > United Kingdom > > > > Tel: > > +44 (0) 77 88 666 523 > > Fax: +44 (0) 20 7870 9399 > > Email: sonal.ahuja@capita.co.uk > > Web: www.capitasymonds.co.uk > > Skype: aonalahuja > > India Mobile: 0091 (0)9310 30 6484 > > > > Capita Symonds Ltd registered office: 71 Victoria Street, Westminster, > > London SW1H 0XA. Registered in England No. 2018542 > > > > Part of the Capita Group Plc. www.capita.co.uk > > > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jains [mailto:alok.priyanka@gmail.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 05:15 AM > > To: Aashish Gupta > > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > > Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister > > > > I am surprised that the entire discussion is going towards > > "substitution" not "complementarity". Delhi already has very ambitious > > plans for Metros (which are full to the brim - coming from personal > > experience) and BRT, but there is a strong need to curb private > > vehicle growth. PRT though tad expensive, could be a perfect feeder > > system to BRT and Metros and for intra-zonal short-distance travel. > > > > Reporting from Delhi. > > Alok Jain > > > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 5:52 AM, Aashish Gupta > > wrote: > >> And Rs 6 per Kilometer is just so expensive! And thats assuming that the > >> claim of Rs 6 per kilometer will stay. > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >> > >> ================================================================ > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a > > forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable > > transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > >> > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on > > developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > > > This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan > > service. > > > > This email and any attachment to it are confidential. Unless you are the > > intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose either the message > > or any information contained in the message. If you are not the intended > > recipient, you should delete this email and notify the sender > immediately. > > > > Any views or opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender > > only, unless otherwise stated. All copyright in any Capita material in > > this email is reserved. > > > > All emails, incoming and outgoing, may be recorded by Capita and > monitored > > for legitimate business purposes. > > > > Capita exclude all liability for any loss or damage arising or resulting > > from the receipt, use or transmission of this email to the fullest extent > > permitted by law. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > From schipper at berkeley.edu Fri Apr 29 08:04:54 2011 From: schipper at berkeley.edu (Lee Schipper) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 16:04:54 -0700 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: References: <277101.73902.qm@web137303.mail.in.yahoo.com> <5a1885ca2f158fc7841c0f668e049ff9.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <692f7f0c72018a84b37cb3e379392adc.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> Thanks, very interesting. BRT, at $5-20 million/mile and carrying 10 000 /hour max in peak direction (many systems exceed that) is far less expensive. Of course BRT works best on big and dense corridors. Metrobus' first line in Mexico city (19 km, 12 miles) ran to $100 million when we count the re-paving of the guideways and include the 100 or so buses. It carried about 300 000 people/day, or 8000/hour in each direction averaged (running close to 18 hours/day). It has totally revolutionized travel in Mexico City, and is now joined by its own extension as well as 2 completely new lines. The Delhi metro is catching up, but BRT is taking its time there. Seems to me as many of you have said that Delhi needs more high capacity lines, and needs to work growth in population, homes, businesses, stores along those lines. The question to all of you is who pays for a low capacity system, and, even more important, where is it built? Whose homes or business does it connect the the trunk routes (metro, BRT)? In a sprawling metro region like Delhi, it seems to me that a PRT system comes out as an expensive way to move a few people in a very large city. -- Lee > Dear Dr. Schipper, > > The per mile costs, according to a report by VTC are $50 million for > one-way > guideway and $75 million for two-way guideway. The report can be found > here. > http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/big/PRTfinalreport.pdf > > The report suggests that capacity can be as high as 3000 persons per hour > per direction, but 1000 is more realistic. > > karthik > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 9:11 AM, Lee Schipper > wrote: > >> Ravi, can you re-express the cost as numbers in >> >> $/person-hour of capacity? >> >> Could be very telling >> -- >> Lee Schipper, Ph.D >> Project Scientist >> Global Metropolitan Studies >> http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/ >> >> Street/Mail Address: >> UC Berkeley Global Metropolitan Studies >> 1950 Addison 2nd floor, Berkeley. >> Berkeley CA 94704-2647 >> >> >> +1 510 642 6889, >> FAX +1 510 642 6061 >> Cell +1 202 262 7476 >> >> skype: mrmeter >> >> >> >> > Dear Sonal, >> > >> > I work with an Urban Transport consultancy in Delhi and also worked on >> a >> > demand estimation project for PRT in GIFT city, Gujarat, India. I >> hope >> > that makes me reasonably qualified to put forward my understanding of >> the >> > PRT. >> > >> > The peak speed of the POD is about 40 kmph. But when you take the >> access, >> > egress, waiting and transfer times, we observed in our study for GIFT >> > city that people have >> > lesser travel time cycling or in many cases even walking. This without >> > even considering the travel cost. >> > >> > Cost of construction of PRT is around Rs 40 crore/km (about USD 8 >> million >> > per km) and its function is to serve as a feeder mode to Metro/BRT.. >> The >> > cost of BRT will be Rs 10 crore/km (about USD 8 million per km). Even >> > though the cost for the passenger is fixed at Rs 6/km, the social cost >> > will be higher. So, the feeder mode is going to cost more than the >> main >> > line. >> > >> > The other point put in favour of the PRT is that it can work in narrow >> > lanes, like the one's being designed for Lucknow. We have narrow lanes >> > in the Old city areas of most of our cities, which were primarily >> > designed for walking. Why would we need to tamper with that for PRT, >> > which is intended for the same purpose i.e. accessing the main PT >> lines >> > on the arterials. >> > >> > But PRT has good symbolic value. Like Flyovers and Metros, they are >> there >> > towering in front of everyone and hence can be claimed as an >> achievement >> > of the government. Might be useful for the next election. Along the >> way, >> > the contractors and the executing agencies have some work. So, we cant >> > deny that it benefits some people at least. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Ravi Gadepalli, >> > i-Trans Pvt. Ltd., >> > TBIU, IIT Delhi, >> > New Delhi. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > --- On Wed, 27/4/11, Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds) >> > wrote: >> > >> > From: Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds) >> > Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister >> > To: alok.priyanka@gmail.com, >> > aashu.gupta20@gmail.com >> > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >> > Date: Wednesday, 27 April, 2011, 10:11 AM >> > >> > Indeed this system, must be seen complimentary, metros don't attract >> the >> > car users due to interchange and park and ride problems, PRT is seen >> to >> an >> > effective complementary system that offer cleaner, convenient and more >> > efficient system than riding a car. Its not the only solution but yet >> > another system that city planners and engineers can use to solve the >> > problem of urban congestion and pollution along with promoting >> walking, >> > cycling and an effective bus system. PRT must be seen a part of >> effective >> > comprehensive urban transit strategy and not in isolation. >> > >> > >> > With warm regards, >> > Sonal >> > >> > Sonal Ahuja >> > Director International Development, >> > >> > CAPITA SYMONDS >> > Technology Transport and Infrastructure >> > >> > Level 7, 52 Grosvenor Gardens, Belgravia, >> > London, SW1W 0AU, >> > United Kingdom >> > >> > Tel: >> > +44 (0) 77 88 666 523 >> > Fax: +44 (0) 20 7870 9399 >> > Email: sonal.ahuja@capita.co.uk >> > Web: www.capitasymonds.co.uk >> > Skype: aonalahuja >> > India Mobile: 0091 (0)9310 30 6484 >> > >> > Capita Symonds Ltd registered office: 71 Victoria Street, >> Westminster, >> > London SW1H 0XA. Registered in England No. 2018542 >> > >> > Part of the Capita Group Plc. www.capita.co.uk >> > >> > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Jains [mailto:alok.priyanka@gmail.com] >> > Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 05:15 AM >> > To: Aashish Gupta >> > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >> >> > Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister >> > >> > I am surprised that the entire discussion is going towards >> > "substitution" not "complementarity". Delhi already has very ambitious >> > plans for Metros (which are full to the brim - coming from personal >> > experience) and BRT, but there is a strong need to curb private >> > vehicle growth. PRT though tad expensive, could be a perfect feeder >> > system to BRT and Metros and for intra-zonal short-distance travel. >> > >> > Reporting from Delhi. >> > Alok Jain >> > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 5:52 AM, Aashish Gupta >> >> > wrote: >> >> And Rs 6 per Kilometer is just so expensive! And thats assuming that >> the >> >> claim of Rs 6 per kilometer will stay. >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the >> real >> >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> >> >> ================================================================ >> >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a >> > forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and >> sustainable >> > transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). >> >> >> > -------------------------------------------------------- >> > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------- >> > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the >> real >> > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> > >> > ================================================================ >> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on >> > developing countries (the 'Global South'). >> > >> > This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan >> > service. >> > >> > This email and any attachment to it are confidential. Unless you are >> the >> > intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose either the >> message >> > or any information contained in the message. If you are not the >> intended >> > recipient, you should delete this email and notify the sender >> immediately. >> > >> > Any views or opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender >> > only, unless otherwise stated. All copyright in any Capita material >> in >> > this email is reserved. >> > >> > All emails, incoming and outgoing, may be recorded by Capita and >> monitored >> > for legitimate business purposes. >> > >> > Capita exclude all liability for any loss or damage arising or >> resulting >> > from the receipt, use or transmission of this email to the fullest >> extent >> > permitted by law. >> > -------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------- >> > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the >> real >> > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> > >> > ================================================================ >> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >> countries >> > (the 'Global South'). >> > -------------------------------------------------------- >> > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------- >> > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the >> real >> > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> > >> > ================================================================ >> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >> countries >> > (the 'Global South'). >> > >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> > From krc12353 at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 08:22:34 2011 From: krc12353 at gmail.com (Karthik Rao-Cavale) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 19:22:34 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: <692f7f0c72018a84b37cb3e379392adc.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> References: <277101.73902.qm@web137303.mail.in.yahoo.com> <5a1885ca2f158fc7841c0f668e049ff9.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> <692f7f0c72018a84b37cb3e379392adc.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: I'm sorry - I misread the report I cited in my hurry to respond. The report states that the "medium cost" estimate for one-way guideway is $20-35 million/mile ($50 million is the higher end estimate). The lower end of the cost estimates might be comparable to Dr. Schipper's cost estimate for BRTs. I also mis-read the capacity of the system - the VTC report states that the maximum PRT capacity actually attainable is similar to the maximum capacity for BRT/LRT, which is about 10000 persons per hour per direction. (p. 56) I apologize once again - this is embarrassing. karthik On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Lee Schipper wrote: > Thanks, very interesting. > > BRT, at $5-20 million/mile and carrying 10 000 /hour max in peak direction > (many systems exceed that) is far less expensive. Of course BRT works best > on big and dense corridors. > > Metrobus' first line in Mexico city (19 km, 12 miles) ran to $100 million > when we count the re-paving of the guideways and include the 100 or so > buses. It carried about 300 000 people/day, or 8000/hour in each direction > averaged (running close to 18 hours/day). It has totally revolutionized > travel in Mexico City, and is now joined by its own extension as well as 2 > completely new lines. > > The Delhi metro is catching up, but BRT is taking its time there. Seems > to me as many of you have said that Delhi needs more high capacity lines, > and needs to work growth in population, homes, businesses, stores along > those lines. > > The question to all of you is who pays for a low capacity system, and, > even more important, where is it built? Whose homes or business does it > connect the the trunk routes (metro, BRT)? In a sprawling metro region > like Delhi, it seems to me that a PRT system comes out as an expensive way > to move a few people in a very large city. > -- > Lee > > > > > Dear Dr. Schipper, > > > > The per mile costs, according to a report by VTC are $50 million for > > one-way > > guideway and $75 million for two-way guideway. The report can be found > > here. > > http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/big/PRTfinalreport.pdf > > > > The report suggests that capacity can be as high as 3000 persons per hour > > per direction, but 1000 is more realistic. > > > > karthik > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 9:11 AM, Lee Schipper > > wrote: > > > >> Ravi, can you re-express the cost as numbers in > >> > >> $/person-hour of capacity? > >> > >> Could be very telling > >> -- > >> Lee Schipper, Ph.D > >> Project Scientist > >> Global Metropolitan Studies > >> http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/ > >> > >> Street/Mail Address: > >> UC Berkeley Global Metropolitan Studies > >> 1950 Addison 2nd floor, Berkeley. > >> Berkeley CA 94704-2647 > >> > >> > >> +1 510 642 6889, > >> FAX +1 510 642 6061 > >> Cell +1 202 262 7476 > >> > >> skype: mrmeter > >> > >> > >> > >> > Dear Sonal, > >> > > >> > I work with an Urban Transport consultancy in Delhi and also worked on > >> a > >> > demand estimation project for PRT in GIFT city, Gujarat, India. I > >> hope > >> > that makes me reasonably qualified to put forward my understanding of > >> the > >> > PRT. > >> > > >> > The peak speed of the POD is about 40 kmph. But when you take the > >> access, > >> > egress, waiting and transfer times, we observed in our study for GIFT > >> > city that people have > >> > lesser travel time cycling or in many cases even walking. This without > >> > even considering the travel cost. > >> > > >> > Cost of construction of PRT is around Rs 40 crore/km (about USD 8 > >> million > >> > per km) and its function is to serve as a feeder mode to Metro/BRT.. > >> The > >> > cost of BRT will be Rs 10 crore/km (about USD 8 million per km). Even > >> > though the cost for the passenger is fixed at Rs 6/km, the social cost > >> > will be higher. So, the feeder mode is going to cost more than the > >> main > >> > line. > >> > > >> > The other point put in favour of the PRT is that it can work in narrow > >> > lanes, like the one's being designed for Lucknow. We have narrow lanes > >> > in the Old city areas of most of our cities, which were primarily > >> > designed for walking. Why would we need to tamper with that for PRT, > >> > which is intended for the same purpose i.e. accessing the main PT > >> lines > >> > on the arterials. > >> > > >> > But PRT has good symbolic value. Like Flyovers and Metros, they are > >> there > >> > towering in front of everyone and hence can be claimed as an > >> achievement > >> > of the government. Might be useful for the next election. Along the > >> way, > >> > the contractors and the executing agencies have some work. So, we cant > >> > deny that it benefits some people at least. > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > > >> > Ravi Gadepalli, > >> > i-Trans Pvt. Ltd., > >> > TBIU, IIT Delhi, > >> > New Delhi. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > --- On Wed, 27/4/11, Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds) > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> > From: Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds) > >> > Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister > >> > To: alok.priyanka@gmail.com, > >> > aashu.gupta20@gmail.com > >> > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > >> > Date: Wednesday, 27 April, 2011, 10:11 AM > >> > > >> > Indeed this system, must be seen complimentary, metros don't attract > >> the > >> > car users due to interchange and park and ride problems, PRT is seen > >> to > >> an > >> > effective complementary system that offer cleaner, convenient and more > >> > efficient system than riding a car. Its not the only solution but yet > >> > another system that city planners and engineers can use to solve the > >> > problem of urban congestion and pollution along with promoting > >> walking, > >> > cycling and an effective bus system. PRT must be seen a part of > >> effective > >> > comprehensive urban transit strategy and not in isolation. > >> > > >> > > >> > With warm regards, > >> > Sonal > >> > > >> > Sonal Ahuja > >> > Director International Development, > >> > > >> > CAPITA SYMONDS > >> > Technology Transport and Infrastructure > >> > > >> > Level 7, 52 Grosvenor Gardens, Belgravia, > >> > London, SW1W 0AU, > >> > United Kingdom > >> > > >> > Tel: > >> > +44 (0) 77 88 666 523 > >> > Fax: +44 (0) 20 7870 9399 > >> > Email: sonal.ahuja@capita.co.uk > >> > Web: www.capitasymonds.co.uk > >> > Skype: aonalahuja > >> > India Mobile: 0091 (0)9310 30 6484 > >> > > >> > Capita Symonds Ltd registered office: 71 Victoria Street, > >> Westminster, > >> > London SW1H 0XA. Registered in England No. 2018542 > >> > > >> > Part of the Capita Group Plc. www.capita.co.uk > >> > > >> > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: Jains [mailto:alok.priyanka@gmail.com] > >> > Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 05:15 AM > >> > To: Aashish Gupta > >> > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > >> > >> > Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister > >> > > >> > I am surprised that the entire discussion is going towards > >> > "substitution" not "complementarity". Delhi already has very ambitious > >> > plans for Metros (which are full to the brim - coming from personal > >> > experience) and BRT, but there is a strong need to curb private > >> > vehicle growth. PRT though tad expensive, could be a perfect feeder > >> > system to BRT and Metros and for intra-zonal short-distance travel. > >> > > >> > Reporting from Delhi. > >> > Alok Jain > >> > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 5:52 AM, Aashish Gupta > >> > >> > wrote: > >> >> And Rs 6 per Kilometer is just so expensive! And thats assuming that > >> the > >> >> claim of Rs 6 per kilometer will stay. > >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > >> >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >> >> > >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > >> >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > >> real > >> >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >> >> > >> >> ================================================================ > >> >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a > >> > forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and > >> sustainable > >> > transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > >> >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------- > >> > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > >> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >> > > >> > -------------------------------------------------------- > >> > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > >> > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > >> real > >> > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >> > > >> > ================================================================ > >> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on > >> > developing countries (the 'Global South'). > >> > > >> > This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan > >> > service. > >> > > >> > This email and any attachment to it are confidential. Unless you are > >> the > >> > intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose either the > >> message > >> > or any information contained in the message. If you are not the > >> intended > >> > recipient, you should delete this email and notify the sender > >> immediately. > >> > > >> > Any views or opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender > >> > only, unless otherwise stated. All copyright in any Capita material > >> in > >> > this email is reserved. > >> > > >> > All emails, incoming and outgoing, may be recorded by Capita and > >> monitored > >> > for legitimate business purposes. > >> > > >> > Capita exclude all liability for any loss or damage arising or > >> resulting > >> > from the receipt, use or transmission of this email to the fullest > >> extent > >> > permitted by law. > >> > -------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > >> > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > >> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >> > > >> > -------------------------------------------------------- > >> > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > >> > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > >> real > >> > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >> > > >> > ================================================================ > >> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > >> countries > >> > (the 'Global South'). > >> > -------------------------------------------------------- > >> > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > >> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >> > > >> > -------------------------------------------------------- > >> > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > >> > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > >> real > >> > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >> > > >> > ================================================================ > >> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > >> countries > >> > (the 'Global South'). > >> > > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > real > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >> > >> ================================================================ > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > >> (the 'Global South'). > >> > > > > > From datar.ashok at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 14:52:20 2011 From: datar.ashok at gmail.com (ashok datar) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 11:22:20 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: References: <1303838293.S.9563.7873.H.TkZhaXphbiBKYXdlZABbc3VzdHJhbl0gUFJUIHByb3Bvc2FsIGZvciBEZWxoaSBjb252aW5jZXMgQ2hpZWY_.pro-237-234.old.1303890402.27345@webmail.rediffmail.com> <-9161617130153268274@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: *cost of bus and car per person * Dear All, if we calculate the investment cost per seat in a car vs the same in a bus we get a disturbing picture If a Volvo bus costs a min of Rs. 70 lakhs for 40 seats it means the investment per seat is Rs. 1.75 lakhs on the other hand , popular cars such as Santro, Indica, Alto etc all cost around Rs 3 to Rs. 4 lak rupees . that means the investment per seat would be Rs one lakh per seat why does it have to be so ? Earlier , the ordinary BEST used to cost only Rs. 11 lakhs to Rs. 18 lakhs- obviously they were very basic and the costs are up but in those days investment cost per seat in a bus was only Rs. 30 to 40000 I think there is something radically wrong that the cost of a bus needs to be so high in India can we not provide good quality 40 seater buses under Rs. 40 lakhs and if a car air conditioning costs Rs. 25000, how much extra it should cost for a bus ? Ultimately in India , investment cost is more important than even the fuel cost let us think about this issue which can make a radical difference to the approach of people to buses and cars that is where no public transport can compete with two wheelers ashok datar On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Sarath Guttikunda wrote: > Dear Lee and Co., > > attached is a summary of the results published by Ministry of Urban > Development in 2008-09 on the passenger travel trends and they tell a good > story of where the cities are headed. > > Important messages on this page: > > - As the cities grew (in size of population, which is proxy to the > geographical size), access to the work places in less than 15 mins travel > time decreases > - As the cities grew, the share of public transport in the form of bus > transport (percent of passenger trips) increases - which is a good sign, > meaning the cities are realizing the importance of promoting public > transport and more efforts are headed that way as the cities expand > - As the cities grew, the share of non-motorized transport in the form > of walking and biking (percent of passenger trips) decreases - which is the > sad part of the equation, meaning the role of cars and SUVs is overtaking > the need to promote NMT > - Lower the share of non-motorized transport in the city, lower the > service index (% trips accessible in less than 15 mins travel time) and > higher the congestion index, primarily due increase in the personal > transport > > The access to public transport is growing, but not enough to support the > travel demand growth in the big cities. Figure 3, top right panel, presents > the share of passenger trips covered by the public transport against the > population in the cities. The access to the public transport is high in the > megacities, and expected to grow under the JNNURM funds. However, the lack > of infrastructure in the bus manufacturing sector to supply the necessary > > With regards, > Sarath > > -- > Dr. Sarath Guttikunda, New Delhi, India > UrbanEmissions.Info | TED Fellow | > +1(202)683-0937 (till June) > http://www.dri.edu/sarath-guttikunda > > > > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 11:22 PM, Lee Schipper wrote: > >> I will copy this to Sarath Guttikunda >> begin_of_the_skype_highlighting end_of_the_skype_highlighting of >> Delhi. Can the Moderator admit him? >> he has some amazing MoUD data on accessibility and mobility (number of >> people traveling less than 15 minutes to work) for dozens of Indian >> cities, and the number taking mass transit. The largest cities in India >> fail..its a mess..the medium sized cities (like Pune) are doing a bit >> better, but the "small" cities (ahem, small compared to Delhi or Mumbai) >> offer more near=by access, consistent with what Ashok Dator said. >> -- >> Lee Schipper, Ph.D >> Project Scientist >> Global Metropolitan Studies >> http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/ >> >> Street/Mail Address: >> UC Berkeley Global Metropolitan Studies >> 1950 Addison 2nd floor, Berkeley. >> Berkeley CA 94704-2647 >> >> >> +1 510 642 6889, >> FAX +1 510 642 6061 >> Cell +1 202 262 7476 >> >> skype: mrmeter >> >> >> >> > it is a very lively and serious debate on this new "toy" , may be good >> for >> > very select uses at airports etc but cant be a sensible option for other >> > major areas in any large and complex city. >> > in fact, we need to have overall restraint policy for the urbanization >> as >> > such all over >> > if we want to cope with congestion, pollution, energy and sustainabiliy >> > I think the cities need to degrow beyond a certain level >> > they must remain within ground level transportation - preferably bussing >> ( >> > i.e. when u cant walk or bike ) >> > hopefully for most worktrips and other regular trips for education as >> well >> > - >> > it should be walking or biking oriented and then the BRTS >> > and only in rare cases, taxies and hired personal cars for occasional >> uses >> > so that we go towards miniimizning private, individually owned cars and >> > provide more dense but low carbon impact and sustaibly green habitat >> > we cant have all comforts which are based on personal car and then try >> to >> > reject it >> > we need to work towards alternate design of living especially in >> > sustainable >> > manner as global availability of energy, food, water is going to be >> > liimited >> > and need to equitably available and transport is a crtical element in >> the >> > way we live especially in large urban societies based on exploitation of >> > rural pop which can also be more sustainabale and "urban" with new >> > techonlogies >> > can we think altogether differently - not too radically >> > ashok datar >> > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:13 PM, eric britton >> > wrote: >> > >> >> This is a nice lively discussion, and I thought it might add a bit of >> >> value >> >> if we posted it to World Streets (even if we are supposed to be closed >> >> as we >> >> seek financial support to keep going) and popped a poll in there for >> >> your >> >> voting pleasure. You will see the full story at >> >> >> http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/prt-proposal-for-delhi-convinces-chief-minister-but-does-it-convince-you-see-poll-results/ >> >> >> >> Let's see what kind of consensus, divergence, trends if any we get >> here. >> >> >> >> What is more beautiful and encouraging than informed active citizens >> who >> >> make their voices heard. >> >> >> >> Vote! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the >> real >> >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> >> >> ================================================================ >> >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >> countries >> >> (the 'Global South'). >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Ashok R.Datar >> > Mumbai Environmental Social Network >> > 20 Madhavi, Makarand Society, S.V.S.Marg, Mahim-400 016 >> > 98676 65107/0222 444 9212 see our website : www.mesn.org >> > >> > * I hear, then I forget. I see, then I remember. I do, then I >> > understand.* >> > -------------------------------------------------------- >> > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------- >> > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the >> real >> > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> > >> > ================================================================ >> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> > (the 'Global South'). >> > >> >> >> >> > -- Ashok R.Datar Mumbai Environmental Social Network 20 Madhavi, Makarand Society, S.V.S.Marg, Mahim-400 016 98676 65107/0222 444 9212 see our website : www.mesn.org * I hear, then I forget. I see, then I remember. I do, then I understand.* From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Fri Apr 29 14:54:59 2011 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric britton) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 07:54:59 +0200 Subject: [sustran] PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: <692f7f0c72018a84b37cb3e379392adc.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> References: <277101.73902.qm@web137303.mail.in.yahoo.com> <5a1885ca2f158fc7841c0f668e049ff9.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> <692f7f0c72018a84b37cb3e379392adc.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <008101cc0631$fb9f3160$f2dd9420$@britton@ecoplan.org> Dear friends, Let me share this comment from Brendan Finn that appeared in World Streets yesterday on this topic. I think he sums up the situation admirably. >From World Streets: Brendan Finn says: 28 April 2011 at 07:17 PRT is one of those concepts that looks tempting at first glance but is a total loser once you think it through to city scale. And it doesn't take a lot of thinking time to figure that out. Normally that would be the end of the matter, but somehow PRT keeps coming back. There is never anything fundamentally different that might make it a viable option in its latest incarnation, it seems that the same old lines are trotted out in the hope that we might fall for it this time (this actually works, it seems someone in Delhi has). I don't really object to people trying to turn a buck from this nonsense, but I really object to the distraction and delays it causes to the solutions that really do work. From patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 15:12:49 2011 From: patwardhan.sujit at gmail.com (Sujit Patwardhan) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 11:42:49 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: References: <1303838293.S.9563.7873.H.TkZhaXphbiBKYXdlZABbc3VzdHJhbl0gUFJUIHByb3Bvc2FsIGZvciBEZWxoaSBjb252aW5jZXMgQ2hpZWY_.pro-237-234.old.1303890402.27345@webmail.rediffmail.com> <-9161617130153268274@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Dear Ashok, But surely "how many times in a day the bus seat is occupied" in other words counting total number of people carried in the bus as against in cars seems to be ignored in your calculations. Or am I missing something? -- Sujit On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 11:22 AM, ashok datar wrote: > *cost of bus and car per person * > > Dear All, > if we calculate the investment cost per seat in a car vs the same in a bus > we get a disturbing picture > If a Volvo bus costs a min of Rs. 70 lakhs for 40 seats > it means the investment per seat is Rs. 1.75 lakhs > on the other hand , popular cars such as Santro, Indica, Alto etc all cost > around Rs 3 to Rs. 4 lak rupees . > that means the investment per seat would be Rs one lakh per seat > why does it have to be so ? > Earlier , the ordinary BEST used to cost only Rs. 11 lakhs to Rs. 18 lakhs- > obviously they were very basic and the costs are up but in those days > investment cost per seat in a bus was only Rs. 30 to 40000 > I think there is something radically wrong that the cost of a bus needs to > be so high in India > can we not provide good quality 40 seater buses under Rs. 40 lakhs > and if a car air conditioning costs Rs. 25000, how much extra it should > cost for a bus ? > Ultimately in India , investment cost is more important than even the fuel > cost > let us think about this issue which can make a radical difference to the > approach of people to buses and cars > that is where no public transport can compete with two wheelers > ashok datar > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Sarath Guttikunda > wrote: > >> Dear Lee and Co., >> >> attached is a summary of the results published by Ministry of Urban >> Development in 2008-09 on the passenger travel trends and they tell a good >> story of where the cities are headed. >> >> Important messages on this page: >> >> - As the cities grew (in size of population, which is proxy to the >> geographical size), access to the work places in less than 15 mins travel >> time decreases >> - As the cities grew, the share of public transport in the form of bus >> transport (percent of passenger trips) increases - which is a good sign, >> meaning the cities are realizing the importance of promoting public >> transport and more efforts are headed that way as the cities expand >> - As the cities grew, the share of non-motorized transport in the form >> of walking and biking (percent of passenger trips) decreases - which is the >> sad part of the equation, meaning the role of cars and SUVs is overtaking >> the need to promote NMT >> - Lower the share of non-motorized transport in the city, lower the >> service index (% trips accessible in less than 15 mins travel time) and >> higher the congestion index, primarily due increase in the personal >> transport >> >> The access to public transport is growing, but not enough to support the >> travel demand growth in the big cities. Figure 3, top right panel, presents >> the share of passenger trips covered by the public transport against the >> population in the cities. The access to the public transport is high in the >> megacities, and expected to grow under the JNNURM funds. However, the lack >> of infrastructure in the bus manufacturing sector to supply the necessary >> >> With regards, >> Sarath >> >> -- >> Dr. Sarath Guttikunda, New Delhi, India >> UrbanEmissions.Info | TED Fellow | >> +1(202)683-0937 (till June) >> http://www.dri.edu/sarath-guttikunda >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 11:22 PM, Lee Schipper wrote: >> >>> I will copy this to Sarath Guttikunda >>> begin_of_the_skype_highlighting end_of_the_skype_highlighting of >>> Delhi. Can the Moderator admit him? >>> he has some amazing MoUD data on accessibility and mobility (number of >>> people traveling less than 15 minutes to work) for dozens of Indian >>> cities, and the number taking mass transit. The largest cities in India >>> fail..its a mess..the medium sized cities (like Pune) are doing a bit >>> better, but the "small" cities (ahem, small compared to Delhi or Mumbai) >>> offer more near=by access, consistent with what Ashok Dator said. >>> -- >>> Lee Schipper, Ph.D >>> Project Scientist >>> Global Metropolitan Studies >>> http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/ >>> >>> Street/Mail Address: >>> UC Berkeley Global Metropolitan Studies >>> 1950 Addison 2nd floor, Berkeley. >>> Berkeley CA 94704-2647 >>> >>> >>> +1 510 642 6889, >>> FAX +1 510 642 6061 >>> Cell +1 202 262 7476 >>> >>> skype: mrmeter >>> >>> >>> >>> > it is a very lively and serious debate on this new "toy" , may be good >>> for >>> > very select uses at airports etc but cant be a sensible option for >>> other >>> > major areas in any large and complex city. >>> > in fact, we need to have overall restraint policy for the urbanization >>> as >>> > such all over >>> > if we want to cope with congestion, pollution, energy and sustainabiliy >>> > I think the cities need to degrow beyond a certain level >>> > they must remain within ground level transportation - preferably >>> bussing ( >>> > i.e. when u cant walk or bike ) >>> > hopefully for most worktrips and other regular trips for education as >>> well >>> > - >>> > it should be walking or biking oriented and then the BRTS >>> > and only in rare cases, taxies and hired personal cars for occasional >>> uses >>> > so that we go towards miniimizning private, individually owned cars and >>> > provide more dense but low carbon impact and sustaibly green habitat >>> > we cant have all comforts which are based on personal car and then try >>> to >>> > reject it >>> > we need to work towards alternate design of living especially in >>> > sustainable >>> > manner as global availability of energy, food, water is going to be >>> > liimited >>> > and need to equitably available and transport is a crtical element in >>> the >>> > way we live especially in large urban societies based on exploitation >>> of >>> > rural pop which can also be more sustainabale and "urban" with new >>> > techonlogies >>> > can we think altogether differently - not too radically >>> > ashok datar >>> > >>> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:13 PM, eric britton >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> >> This is a nice lively discussion, and I thought it might add a bit of >>> >> value >>> >> if we posted it to World Streets (even if we are supposed to be closed >>> >> as we >>> >> seek financial support to keep going) and popped a poll in there for >>> >> your >>> >> voting pleasure. You will see the full story at >>> >> >>> http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/prt-proposal-for-delhi-convinces-chief-minister-but-does-it-convince-you-see-poll-results/ >>> >> >>> >> Let's see what kind of consensus, divergence, trends if any we get >>> here. >>> >> >>> >> What is more beautiful and encouraging than informed active citizens >>> who >>> >> make their voices heard. >>> >> >>> >> Vote! >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >>> >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >>> >> >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >>> >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the >>> real >>> >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >>> >> >>> >> ================================================================ >>> >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >>> >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >>> countries >>> >> (the 'Global South'). >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Ashok R.Datar >>> > Mumbai Environmental Social Network >>> > 20 Madhavi, Makarand Society, S.V.S.Marg, Mahim-400 016 >>> > 98676 65107/0222 444 9212 see our website : www.mesn.org >>> > >>> > * I hear, then I forget. I see, then I remember. I do, then I >>> > understand.* >>> > -------------------------------------------------------- >>> > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >>> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >>> > >>> > -------------------------------------------------------- >>> > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >>> > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the >>> real >>> > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >>> > >>> > ================================================================ >>> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >>> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >>> countries >>> > (the 'Global South'). >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Ashok R.Datar > Mumbai Environmental Social Network > 20 Madhavi, Makarand Society, S.V.S.Marg, Mahim-400 016 > 98676 65107/0222 444 9212 see our website : www.mesn.org > > * I hear, then I forget. I see, then I remember. I do, then I understand. > * > > -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- *?..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment to destroy the city?* Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel Munich 1970 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sujit Patwardhan patwardhan.sujit@gmail.com sujit@parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India Tel: +91 20 25537955 Cell: +91 98220 26627 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Parisar: www.parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Fri Apr 29 16:57:00 2011 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric britton) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 09:57:00 +0200 Subject: [sustran] PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister Message-ID: <010001cc0643$0700a500$1501ef00$@britton@ecoplan.org> World Streets Somebody wake me up on this please. 1. If we look on the streets of any city in the Global South, we see PRT, personal rapid transport, all over the place. 2. In the form of cheap motorized two wheelers with pretty energy-efficient engines, enough road space to get the trip done, and free parking right next to where you want to go. 3. There is no way that the old mid-20th century PRT folks can even start to compete with that. 4. But if this is the on-street reality, which of course it is, please show me the city or research program that is showing the way in getting the most out of this stubborn reality. 5. Who is making the best things about it better yet? 6. And who is getting some kind of control of the worst? We need a new policy paradigm for this, let's call it, the people's PRT. Of course it's part of the problem, but it is also clear that it is a major part of the solution, as anyone with even an ounce of experience and common sense can see. And policy makers, advisors and proponents of sustainable cities we will continue to ignore it at our peril. Take the city of Kaohsiung as just one salient example: 1.5 million people, 1.2 million scooters, and something like three quarters of the modal split. And all this in parallel with an absolutely gorgeous new state of the art six billion dollar metro that started to go out of business on Day 1 of its opening and ever since, because it simply cannot compete in terms of trip time, convenient or price. Shouldn't we be working on this - along with the on-street reality options such as BRT, HOV access, parking control, strategic speed control, safe walking and cycling, and all that we know are parts of the solution -- instead of wasting our time with these long disproven, whack-a-mole PRT proposals that clearly have no place in our cities How to get the message across to the policy makers and politicians? This has been good fun, but Brendan Finn has it right. These PRT enthusiasts are distracting us at a time when we need all our brains and focus for the real stuff. Out they go. Eric Britton Some reference points: . Sustran list comments - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sustran-discuss/message/6637 . World Streets article of 26 April- http://wp.me/psKUY-1A9 . CityFix article of 27 April- http://thecityfix.com/can-pod-cars-transform-traffic-in-delhi/ . Facebook group - http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_217653324914604 . World Streets Poll - http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/prt-proposal-for-delhi-convince s-chief-minister-but-does-it-convince-you-see-poll-results/ (Note on the poll results: It has in the last 24 hours been contaminated by no less than 106 visits from a single Comcast Cable site in an identified city, United States, with the result that exactly 65 votes have been recorded in favor of PRT as a solution from the one site. No reason to point any fingers, beyond just mentioning it here. Now that's interesting.) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/octet-stream Size: 10830 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20110429/704d33c5/attachment-0001.bin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 1409 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20110429/704d33c5/attachment-0001.png From adhiraj.joglekar at googlemail.com Fri Apr 29 19:31:52 2011 From: adhiraj.joglekar at googlemail.com (Dr Adhiraj Joglekar) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 11:31:52 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: References: <1303838293.S.9563.7873.H.TkZhaXphbiBKYXdlZABbc3VzdHJhbl0gUFJUIHByb3Bvc2FsIGZvciBEZWxoaSBjb252aW5jZXMgQ2hpZWY_.pro-237-234.old.1303890402.27345@webmail.rediffmail.com> <-9161617130153268274@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: And lets not forget the standees. A On 29 April 2011 07:12, Sujit Patwardhan wrote: > Dear Ashok, > But surely "how many times in a day the bus seat is occupied" in other > words > counting total number of people carried in the bus as against in cars seems > to be ignored in your calculations. Or am I missing something? > > -- > Sujit > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 11:22 AM, ashok datar > wrote: > > > *cost of bus and car per person * > > > > Dear All, > > if we calculate the investment cost per seat in a car vs the same in a > bus > > we get a disturbing picture > > If a Volvo bus costs a min of Rs. 70 lakhs for 40 seats > > it means the investment per seat is Rs. 1.75 lakhs > > on the other hand , popular cars such as Santro, Indica, Alto etc all > cost > > around Rs 3 to Rs. 4 lak rupees . > > that means the investment per seat would be Rs one lakh per seat > > why does it have to be so ? > > Earlier , the ordinary BEST used to cost only Rs. 11 lakhs to Rs. 18 > lakhs- > > obviously they were very basic and the costs are up but in those days > > investment cost per seat in a bus was only Rs. 30 to 40000 > > I think there is something radically wrong that the cost of a bus needs > to > > be so high in India > > can we not provide good quality 40 seater buses under Rs. 40 lakhs > > and if a car air conditioning costs Rs. 25000, how much extra it should > > cost for a bus ? > > Ultimately in India , investment cost is more important than even the > fuel > > cost > > let us think about this issue which can make a radical difference to the > > approach of people to buses and cars > > that is where no public transport can compete with two wheelers > > ashok datar > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Sarath Guttikunda < > sguttikunda@gmail.com > > > wrote: > > > >> Dear Lee and Co., > >> > >> attached is a summary of the results published by Ministry of Urban > >> Development in 2008-09 on the passenger travel trends and they tell a > good > >> story of where the cities are headed. > >> > >> Important messages on this page: > >> > >> - As the cities grew (in size of population, which is proxy to the > >> geographical size), access to the work places in less than 15 mins > travel > >> time decreases > >> - As the cities grew, the share of public transport in the form of > bus > >> transport (percent of passenger trips) increases - which is a good > sign, > >> meaning the cities are realizing the importance of promoting public > >> transport and more efforts are headed that way as the cities expand > >> - As the cities grew, the share of non-motorized transport in the > form > >> of walking and biking (percent of passenger trips) decreases - which > is the > >> sad part of the equation, meaning the role of cars and SUVs is > overtaking > >> the need to promote NMT > >> - Lower the share of non-motorized transport in the city, lower the > >> service index (% trips accessible in less than 15 mins travel time) > and > >> higher the congestion index, primarily due increase in the personal > >> transport > >> > >> The access to public transport is growing, but not enough to support the > >> travel demand growth in the big cities. Figure 3, top right panel, > presents > >> the share of passenger trips covered by the public transport against the > >> population in the cities. The access to the public transport is high in > the > >> megacities, and expected to grow under the JNNURM funds. However, the > lack > >> of infrastructure in the bus manufacturing sector to supply the > necessary > >> > >> With regards, > >> Sarath > >> > >> -- > >> Dr. Sarath Guttikunda, New Delhi, India > >> UrbanEmissions.Info | TED Fellow | > >> +1(202)683-0937 (till June) > >> http://www.dri.edu/sarath-guttikunda > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 11:22 PM, Lee Schipper >wrote: > >> > >>> I will copy this to Sarath Guttikunda > >>> begin_of_the_skype_highlighting end_of_the_skype_highlighting of > >>> Delhi. Can the Moderator admit him? > >>> he has some amazing MoUD data on accessibility and mobility (number of > >>> people traveling less than 15 minutes to work) for dozens of Indian > >>> cities, and the number taking mass transit. The largest cities in India > >>> fail..its a mess..the medium sized cities (like Pune) are doing a bit > >>> better, but the "small" cities (ahem, small compared to Delhi or > Mumbai) > >>> offer more near=by access, consistent with what Ashok Dator said. > >>> -- > >>> Lee Schipper, Ph.D > >>> Project Scientist > >>> Global Metropolitan Studies > >>> http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/ > >>> > >>> Street/Mail Address: > >>> UC Berkeley Global Metropolitan Studies > >>> 1950 Addison 2nd floor, Berkeley. > >>> Berkeley CA 94704-2647 > >>> > >>> > >>> +1 510 642 6889, > >>> FAX +1 510 642 6061 > >>> Cell +1 202 262 7476 > >>> > >>> skype: mrmeter > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > it is a very lively and serious debate on this new "toy" , may be > good > >>> for > >>> > very select uses at airports etc but cant be a sensible option for > >>> other > >>> > major areas in any large and complex city. > >>> > in fact, we need to have overall restraint policy for the > urbanization > >>> as > >>> > such all over > >>> > if we want to cope with congestion, pollution, energy and > sustainabiliy > >>> > I think the cities need to degrow beyond a certain level > >>> > they must remain within ground level transportation - preferably > >>> bussing ( > >>> > i.e. when u cant walk or bike ) > >>> > hopefully for most worktrips and other regular trips for education as > >>> well > >>> > - > >>> > it should be walking or biking oriented and then the BRTS > >>> > and only in rare cases, taxies and hired personal cars for occasional > >>> uses > >>> > so that we go towards miniimizning private, individually owned cars > and > >>> > provide more dense but low carbon impact and sustaibly green habitat > >>> > we cant have all comforts which are based on personal car and then > try > >>> to > >>> > reject it > >>> > we need to work towards alternate design of living especially in > >>> > sustainable > >>> > manner as global availability of energy, food, water is going to be > >>> > liimited > >>> > and need to equitably available and transport is a crtical element in > >>> the > >>> > way we live especially in large urban societies based on exploitation > >>> of > >>> > rural pop which can also be more sustainabale and "urban" with new > >>> > techonlogies > >>> > can we think altogether differently - not too radically > >>> > ashok datar > >>> > > >>> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:13 PM, eric britton > >>> > wrote: > >>> > > >>> >> This is a nice lively discussion, and I thought it might add a bit > of > >>> >> value > >>> >> if we posted it to World Streets (even if we are supposed to be > closed > >>> >> as we > >>> >> seek financial support to keep going) and popped a poll in there for > >>> >> your > >>> >> voting pleasure. You will see the full story at > >>> >> > >>> > http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/prt-proposal-for-delhi-convinces-chief-minister-but-does-it-convince-you-see-poll-results/ > >>> >> > >>> >> Let's see what kind of consensus, divergence, trends if any we get > >>> here. > >>> >> > >>> >> What is more beautiful and encouraging than informed active citizens > >>> who > >>> >> make their voices heard. > >>> >> > >>> >> Vote! > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > >>> >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >>> >> > >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > >>> >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > >>> real > >>> >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >>> >> > >>> >> ================================================================ > >>> >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >>> >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > >>> countries > >>> >> (the 'Global South'). > >>> >> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > -- > >>> > Ashok R.Datar > >>> > Mumbai Environmental Social Network > >>> > 20 Madhavi, Makarand Society, S.V.S.Marg, Mahim-400 016 > >>> > 98676 65107/0222 444 9212 see our website : www.mesn.org > >>> > > >>> > * I hear, then I forget. I see, then I remember. I do, then I > >>> > understand.* > >>> > -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > >>> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > >>> > > >>> > -------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > >>> > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the > >>> real > >>> > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > >>> > > >>> > ================================================================ > >>> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > >>> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > >>> countries > >>> > (the 'Global South'). > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Ashok R.Datar > > Mumbai Environmental Social Network > > 20 Madhavi, Makarand Society, S.V.S.Marg, Mahim-400 016 > > 98676 65107/0222 444 9212 see our website : www.mesn.org > > > > * I hear, then I forget. I see, then I remember. I do, then I > understand. > > * > > > > > > > -- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > *?..each million we invest into urban motorways is an investment > to destroy the city?* > > Mayor Hans Joachim Vogel > Munich 1970 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sujit Patwardhan > patwardhan.sujit@gmail.com > sujit@parisar.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India > Tel: +91 20 25537955 > Cell: +91 98220 26627 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Parisar: www.parisar.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > From litman at vtpi.org Fri Apr 29 21:00:57 2011 From: litman at vtpi.org (Todd Alexander Litman) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 05:00:57 -0700 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: References: <1303838293.S.9563.7873.H.TkZhaXphbiBKYXdlZABbc3VzdHJhbl0gUFJUIHByb3Bvc2FsIGZvciBEZWxoaSBjb252aW5jZXMgQ2hpZWY_.pro-237-234.old.1303890402.27345@webmail.rediffmail.com> <-9161617130153268274@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <002601cc0665$1f7ad930$5e708b90$@org> There are a number of important factors to consider when comparing public transit and automobile costs, and therefore when comparing the cost-efficiency of roadway versus transit investments. * Automobiles require a vehicle, road space and parking facilities at every destination. Rail transit and BRT systems include all of these cost components (rights-of-way, vehicles and stations). * Motor vehicles only serve the portion of travelers who can afford them and are able to drive or hire a driver. * A large portion of automobile travel consists of chauffeured trips (a special trip made by a driver to deliver a passenger) and so generates an empty backhaul. Such trips generate one wasted vehicle-km per passenger-km of travel. * Expanding urban roadways often simply shifts the location of traffic congestion. For example, building an urban highway or flyover tends to increase total traffic volumes, which increases congestion on surface streets. * Automobile travel is very resource intensive, requiring 10-100 times as much land area for roads and parking, and 10-1,000 times as much non-renewable energy, as the same trips made by walking, cycling and public transport (www.planetizen.com/node/46570 ). Most road and parking costs are subsidized (borne through general taxes and businesses), resulting in regressive subsidies of wealthier people at the expense of poorer people. * A typical car is only operated one or two daily hours, compared with 14-18 for a typical bus. A typical car lasts 10-15 years, a typical bus or train 15-40 years. Buses and trains are therefore much more efficiently used assets. There are also additional factors that should be considered when comparing bus and PRT. PRT systems require passengers to travel in enclosed "pods" with strangers, which creates insecurity problems. They often require passengers to walk up several flights of stairs to boarding platforms, which requires extra time and effort, and elevators at each station to accommodate people with disabilities and luggage, which increases financial and energy costs, costs often seem overlooked in project analysis. As a result, their demand is probably lower and their costs probably higher than proponents project. For illustrations of PRT systems, and other "advanced" transport, visit http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/whatsnew.htm . They all look great in the drawings, but think about what it would actually be like to travel in a little pod in hot weather after a few years when the plastic is scratched and cracked, the interior is worn and damaged by vandals, and it smells of previous passengers' body odor. I think there are good reasons to be skeptical about these systems. I suspect that improving walking, cycling and public transit, and increasing the supply of affordable housing along major transit corridors, will be far more cost effective investments overall. This is not to suggest that cities should invest nothing to accommodate automobile transport, nor that BRT is the only solution to urban transport problems, but all of these factors should be considered when evaluating and comparing options, and determining how they should be financed. In general, efficiency and equity require that automobile users be charged the full costs for the roads, parking facilities and fuel they consume, while there are good reasons for society to subsidize some public transit costs, and where there are conflicts (such as limited road space), favor public transit over automobile travel, since it is more efficient and equitable. For more information on these issues see: Todd Litman (2006), "Smart Congestion Reductions II: Reevaluating The Role Of Public Transit For Improving Urban Transportation," VTPI (www.vtpi.org); at www.vtpi.org/cong_reliefII.pdf . Todd Litman (2007), "Evaluating Rail Transit Criticism," Victoria Transport Policy Institute (www.vtpi.org); at www.vtpi.org/railcrit.pdf . Todd Litman (2009), "Evaluating Public Transit Benefits and Costs," VTPI (www.vtpi.org); at www.vtpi.org/tranben.pdf . This includes sections on comparing automobile and transit, and comparing bus and rail. Todd Litman (2010), "Raise My Taxes, Please! Evaluating Household Savings >From High Quality Public Transit Service," VTPI (www.vtpi.org); at www.vtpi.org/raisetaxes.pdf . Todd Litman (2010), "The Selfish Automobile," Planetizen (www.planetizen.com); at www.planetizen.com/node/46570 . Sincerely, Todd Litman Victoria Transport Policy Institute (www.vtpi.org) litman@vtpi.org Phone & Fax 250-360-1560 1250 Rudlin Street, Victoria, BC, V8V 3R7, CANADA "Efficiency - Equity - Clarity" -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+litman=vtpi.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+litman=vtpi.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of ashok datar Sent: April-28-11 10:52 PM To: Sarath Guttikunda Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister *cost of bus and car per person * Dear All, if we calculate the investment cost per seat in a car vs the same in a bus we get a disturbing picture If a Volvo bus costs a min of Rs. 70 lakhs for 40 seats it means the investment per seat is Rs. 1.75 lakhs on the other hand , popular cars such as Santro, Indica, Alto etc all cost around Rs 3 to Rs. 4 lak rupees . that means the investment per seat would be Rs one lakh per seat why does it have to be so ? Earlier , the ordinary BEST used to cost only Rs. 11 lakhs to Rs. 18 lakhs- obviously they were very basic and the costs are up but in those days investment cost per seat in a bus was only Rs. 30 to 40000 I think there is something radically wrong that the cost of a bus needs to be so high in India can we not provide good quality 40 seater buses under Rs. 40 lakhs and if a car air conditioning costs Rs. 25000, how much extra it should cost for a bus ? Ultimately in India , investment cost is more important than even the fuel cost let us think about this issue which can make a radical difference to the approach of people to buses and cars that is where no public transport can compete with two wheelers ashok datar On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Sarath Guttikunda wrote: > Dear Lee and Co., > > attached is a summary of the results published by Ministry of Urban > Development in 2008-09 on the passenger travel trends and they tell a good > story of where the cities are headed. > > Important messages on this page: > > - As the cities grew (in size of population, which is proxy to the > geographical size), access to the work places in less than 15 mins travel > time decreases > - As the cities grew, the share of public transport in the form of bus > transport (percent of passenger trips) increases - which is a good sign, > meaning the cities are realizing the importance of promoting public > transport and more efforts are headed that way as the cities expand > - As the cities grew, the share of non-motorized transport in the form > of walking and biking (percent of passenger trips) decreases - which is the > sad part of the equation, meaning the role of cars and SUVs is overtaking > the need to promote NMT > - Lower the share of non-motorized transport in the city, lower the > service index (% trips accessible in less than 15 mins travel time) and > higher the congestion index, primarily due increase in the personal > transport > > The access to public transport is growing, but not enough to support the > travel demand growth in the big cities. Figure 3, top right panel, presents > the share of passenger trips covered by the public transport against the > population in the cities. The access to the public transport is high in the > megacities, and expected to grow under the JNNURM funds. However, the lack > of infrastructure in the bus manufacturing sector to supply the necessary > > With regards, > Sarath > > -- > Dr. Sarath Guttikunda, New Delhi, India > UrbanEmissions.Info | TED Fellow | > +1(202)683-0937 (till June) > http://www.dri.edu/sarath-guttikunda > From dalmaluf at yahoo.com Fri Apr 29 23:09:30 2011 From: dalmaluf at yahoo.com (Dal Maluf) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 07:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: <692f7f0c72018a84b37cb3e379392adc.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> References: <277101.73902.qm@web137303.mail.in.yahoo.com> <5a1885ca2f158fc7841c0f668e049ff9.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> <692f7f0c72018a84b37cb3e379392adc.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <396739.57890.qm@web55801.mail.re3.yahoo.com> In Sao Paulo, our newer "open" BRT -?bus lines only,?without?express routes and no pre-boarding - constructed between 2003/2005,?can carry up to 30 000/hr per direction and cost?only R$ 3 million/ km. With 113 kms of new bus lines only, Sao Paulo went from 6 million trips/day on bus, to 10 million trips on buses between 2004/2007. It changed the trend of 45% public transport and 55% for private (motorized trips only) in 2002, to 55% public transport and 45% private cars. Now it's around 12 million trips/day. ? I want to see any PRT, LRT or subway network that can be constructed in less than 5 years - and paid by the users with?the fare - that can delive that... ? Bogota's Transmilenio BRT, with?external?payment, closed stations and express lines, can carry up to 45?000/hr, which is probably more than 95% of all subways in the world.... ? ? De: Lee Schipper Para: Karthik Rao-Cavale Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Enviadas: Quinta-feira, 28 de Abril de 2011 20:04 Assunto: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister Thanks, very interesting. BRT, at $5-20 million/mile and carrying 10 000 /hour max in peak direction (many systems exceed that) is far less expensive. Of course BRT works best on big and dense corridors. Metrobus' first line in Mexico city (19 km, 12 miles) ran to $100 million when we count the re-paving of the guideways and include the 100 or so buses. It carried about 300 000 people/day, or 8000/hour in each direction averaged (running close to 18 hours/day). It has totally revolutionized travel in Mexico City, and is now joined by its own extension as well as 2 completely new lines. The Delhi metro is catching up, but BRT is taking its time there.? Seems to me as many of you have said that Delhi needs more high capacity lines, and needs to work growth in population, homes, businesses, stores along those lines. The question to all of you is who pays for a low capacity system, and, even more important, where is it built? Whose homes or business does it connect the the trunk routes (metro, BRT)? In a sprawling metro region like Delhi, it seems to me that a PRT system comes out as an expensive way to move a few people in a very large city. -- Lee > Dear Dr. Schipper, > > The per mile costs, according to a report by VTC are $50 million for > one-way > guideway and $75 million for two-way guideway. The report can be found > here. > http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/big/PRTfinalreport.pdf > > The report suggests that capacity can be as high as 3000 persons per hour > per direction, but 1000 is more realistic. > > karthik > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 9:11 AM, Lee Schipper > wrote: > >> Ravi, can you re-express the cost as numbers in >> >> $/person-hour of capacity? >> >> Could be very telling >> -- >> Lee Schipper, Ph.D >> Project Scientist >> Global Metropolitan Studies >> http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/ >> >> Street/Mail Address: >> UC Berkeley Global Metropolitan Studies >> 1950 Addison 2nd floor, Berkeley. >> Berkeley CA 94704-2647 >> >> >> +1 510 642 6889, >> FAX +1 510 642 6061 >> Cell +1 202 262 7476 >> >> skype: mrmeter >> >> >> >> > Dear Sonal, >> > >> > I work with an Urban Transport consultancy in Delhi and also worked on >> a >> > demand estimation project for PRT in GIFT city, Gujarat, India.? I >> hope >> > that makes me reasonably qualified to? put forward my understanding of >> the >> > PRT. >> > >> > The peak speed of the POD is about 40 kmph. But when you take the >> access, >> > egress, waiting? and transfer times, we observed in our study for GIFT >> > city that people have >> > lesser travel time cycling or in many cases even walking. This without >> > even considering the travel cost. >> > >> > Cost of construction of PRT is around Rs 40 crore/km (about USD 8 >> million >> > per km) and its function is to serve as a feeder mode to Metro/BRT.. >> The >> > cost of BRT will be Rs 10 crore/km (about USD 8 million per km). Even >> > though the cost for the passenger is fixed at Rs 6/km, the social cost >> > will be higher. So, the feeder mode is going to cost more than the >> main >> > line. >> > >> > The other point put in favour of the PRT is that it can work in narrow >> > lanes, like the one's being designed for Lucknow. We have narrow lanes >> > in the Old city areas of most of our cities, which were primarily >> > designed for walking. Why would we need to tamper with that for PRT, >> > which is intended for the same purpose i.e. accessing the main PT >> lines >> > on the arterials. >> > >> > But PRT has good symbolic value. Like Flyovers and Metros, they are >> there >> > towering in front of everyone and hence can be claimed as an >> achievement >> > of the government. Might be useful for the next election. Along the >> way, >> > the contractors and the executing agencies have some work. So, we cant >> > deny that it benefits some people at least. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Ravi Gadepalli, >> > i-Trans Pvt. Ltd., >> > TBIU, IIT Delhi, >> > New Delhi. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > --- On Wed, 27/4/11, Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds) >> > wrote: >> > >> > From: Ahuja, Sonal (Capita Symonds) >> > Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister >> > To: alok.priyanka@gmail.com, >> >? aashu.gupta20@gmail.com >> > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >> > Date: Wednesday, 27 April, 2011, 10:11 AM >> > >> > Indeed this system, must be seen complimentary, metros don't attract >> the >> > car users due to interchange and park and ride problems, PRT is seen >> to >> an >> > effective complementary system that offer cleaner, convenient and more >> > efficient system than riding a car. Its not the only solution but yet >> > another system that city planners and engineers can use to solve the >> > problem of urban congestion and pollution along with promoting >> walking, >> > cycling and an effective bus system. PRT must be seen a part of >> effective >> > comprehensive urban transit strategy and not in isolation. >> > >> > >> > With warm regards, >> > Sonal >> > >> > Sonal Ahuja >> > Director International Development, >> > >> > CAPITA SYMONDS >> > Technology Transport and Infrastructure >> > >> > Level 7, 52 Grosvenor Gardens, Belgravia, >> > London, SW1W 0AU, >> > United Kingdom >> > >> > Tel: >> >? +44 (0) 77 88 666 523 >> > Fax: +44 (0) 20 7870 9399 >> > Email: sonal.ahuja@capita.co.uk >> > Web: www.capitasymonds.co.uk >> > Skype: aonalahuja >> > India Mobile: 0091 (0)9310 30 6484 >> > >> > Capita Symonds Ltd? registered office: 71 Victoria Street, >> Westminster, >> > London SW1H 0XA. Registered in England No. 2018542 >> > >> > Part of the Capita Group Plc.? www.capita.co.uk >> > >> > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Jains [mailto:alok.priyanka@gmail.com] >> > Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 05:15 AM >> > To: Aashish Gupta >> > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >> >> > Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister >> > >> > I am surprised that the entire discussion is going towards >> > "substitution" not "complementarity". Delhi already has very ambitious >> > plans for Metros (which are full to the brim - coming from personal >> > experience) and BRT, but there is a strong need to curb private >> > vehicle growth. PRT though tad expensive, could be a perfect feeder >> > system to BRT and Metros and for intra-zonal short-distance travel. >> > >> > Reporting from Delhi. >> > Alok Jain >> > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 5:52 AM, Aashish Gupta >> >> > wrote: >> >> And Rs 6 per Kilometer is just so expensive! And thats assuming that >> the >> >> claim of Rs 6 per kilometer will stay. >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the >> real >> >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> >> >> ================================================================ >> >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a >> >? forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and >> sustainable >> > transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). >> >> >> > -------------------------------------------------------- >> > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------- >> > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the >> real >> > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> > >> > ================================================================ >> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on >> >? developing countries (the 'Global South'). >> > >> > This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan >> > service. >> > >> > This email and any attachment to it are confidential.? Unless you are >> the >> > intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose either the >> message >> > or any information contained in the message. If you are not the >> intended >> > recipient, you should delete this email and notify the sender >> immediately. >> > >> > Any views or opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender >> > only, unless otherwise stated.? All copyright in any Capita material >> in >> > this email is reserved. >> > >> > All emails, incoming and outgoing, may be recorded by Capita and >> monitored >> > for legitimate business purposes. >> > >> > Capita exclude all liability for any loss or damage arising or >> resulting >> > from the receipt, use or transmission of this email to the fullest >> extent >> > permitted by law. >> > -------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------- >> > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the >> real >> > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> > >> > ================================================================ >> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >> countries >> > (the 'Global South'). >> > -------------------------------------------------------- >> > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------- >> > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the >> real >> > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> > >> > ================================================================ >> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >> countries >> > (the 'Global South'). >> > >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). >> > -------------------------------------------------------- To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss -------------------------------------------------------- If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From schipper at berkeley.edu Fri Apr 29 23:43:28 2011 From: schipper at berkeley.edu (Lee Schipper) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 07:43:28 -0700 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: <002601cc0665$1f7ad930$5e708b90$@org> References: <1303838293.S.9563.7873.H.TkZhaXphbiBKYXdlZABbc3VzdHJhbl0gUFJUIHByb3Bvc2FsIGZvciBEZWxoaSBjb252aW5jZXMgQ2hpZWY_.pro-237-234.old.1303890402.27345@webmail.rediffmail.com> <-9161617130153268274@unknownmsgid> <002601cc0665$1f7ad930$5e708b90$@org> Message-ID: "chauffeured trips"? Where Todd. If there is only 1.55 people/car in the US where are the Chauffers? Lee Schipper Global Met Studies UC Berkeley Precourt En Eff Center Stanford On Apr 29, 2011, at 5:00, "Todd Alexander Litman" wrote: > There are a number of important factors to consider when comparing public > transit and automobile costs, and therefore when comparing the > cost-efficiency of roadway versus transit investments. > > * Automobiles require a vehicle, road space and parking facilities at every > destination. Rail transit and BRT systems include all of these cost > components (rights-of-way, vehicles and stations). > > * Motor vehicles only serve the portion of travelers who can afford them and > are able to drive or hire a driver. > > * A large portion of automobile travel consists of chauffeured trips (a > special trip made by a driver to deliver a passenger) and so generates an > empty backhaul. Such trips generate one wasted vehicle-km per passenger-km > of travel. > > * Expanding urban roadways often simply shifts the location of traffic > congestion. For example, building an urban highway or flyover tends to > increase total traffic volumes, which increases congestion on surface > streets. > > * Automobile travel is very resource intensive, requiring 10-100 times as > much land area for roads and parking, and 10-1,000 times as much > non-renewable energy, as the same trips made by walking, cycling and public > transport (www.planetizen.com/node/46570 ). Most road and parking costs are > subsidized (borne through general taxes and businesses), resulting in > regressive subsidies of wealthier people at the expense of poorer people. > > * A typical car is only operated one or two daily hours, compared with 14-18 > for a typical bus. A typical car lasts 10-15 years, a typical bus or train > 15-40 years. Buses and trains are therefore much more efficiently used > assets. > > > There are also additional factors that should be considered when comparing > bus and PRT. PRT systems require passengers to travel in enclosed "pods" > with strangers, which creates insecurity problems. They often require > passengers to walk up several flights of stairs to boarding platforms, which > requires extra time and effort, and elevators at each station to accommodate > people with disabilities and luggage, which increases financial and energy > costs, costs often seem overlooked in project analysis. As a result, their > demand is probably lower and their costs probably higher than proponents > project. > > For illustrations of PRT systems, and other "advanced" transport, visit > http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/whatsnew.htm . They all look great > in the drawings, but think about what it would actually be like to travel in > a little pod in hot weather after a few years when the plastic is scratched > and cracked, the interior is worn and damaged by vandals, and it smells of > previous passengers' body odor. I think there are good reasons to be > skeptical about these systems. I suspect that improving walking, cycling and > public transit, and increasing the supply of affordable housing along major > transit corridors, will be far more cost effective investments overall. > > This is not to suggest that cities should invest nothing to accommodate > automobile transport, nor that BRT is the only solution to urban transport > problems, but all of these factors should be considered when evaluating and > comparing options, and determining how they should be financed. In general, > efficiency and equity require that automobile users be charged the full > costs for the roads, parking facilities and fuel they consume, while there > are good reasons for society to subsidize some public transit costs, and > where there are conflicts (such as limited road space), favor public transit > over automobile travel, since it is more efficient and equitable. > > > For more information on these issues see: > > Todd Litman (2006), "Smart Congestion Reductions II: Reevaluating The Role > Of Public Transit For Improving Urban Transportation," VTPI (www.vtpi.org); > at www.vtpi.org/cong_reliefII.pdf . > > Todd Litman (2007), "Evaluating Rail Transit Criticism," Victoria Transport > Policy Institute (www.vtpi.org); at www.vtpi.org/railcrit.pdf . > > Todd Litman (2009), "Evaluating Public Transit Benefits and Costs," VTPI > (www.vtpi.org); at www.vtpi.org/tranben.pdf . This includes sections on > comparing automobile and transit, and comparing bus and rail. > > Todd Litman (2010), "Raise My Taxes, Please! Evaluating Household Savings >> From High Quality Public Transit Service," VTPI (www.vtpi.org); at > www.vtpi.org/raisetaxes.pdf . > > Todd Litman (2010), "The Selfish Automobile," Planetizen > (www.planetizen.com); at www.planetizen.com/node/46570 . > > > Sincerely, > Todd Litman > Victoria Transport Policy Institute (www.vtpi.org) > litman@vtpi.org > Phone & Fax 250-360-1560 > 1250 Rudlin Street, Victoria, BC, V8V 3R7, CANADA > "Efficiency - Equity - Clarity" > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+litman=vtpi.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+litman=vtpi.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf > Of ashok datar > Sent: April-28-11 10:52 PM > To: Sarath Guttikunda > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister > > *cost of bus and car per person * > > Dear All, > if we calculate the investment cost per seat in a car vs the same in a bus > we get a disturbing picture > If a Volvo bus costs a min of Rs. 70 lakhs for 40 seats > it means the investment per seat is Rs. 1.75 lakhs > on the other hand , popular cars such as Santro, Indica, Alto etc all cost > around Rs 3 to Rs. 4 lak rupees . > that means the investment per seat would be Rs one lakh per seat > why does it have to be so ? > Earlier , the ordinary BEST used to cost only Rs. 11 lakhs to Rs. 18 lakhs- > obviously they were very basic and the costs are up but in those days > investment cost per seat in a bus was only Rs. 30 to 40000 > I think there is something radically wrong that the cost of a bus needs to > be so high in India > can we not provide good quality 40 seater buses under Rs. 40 lakhs > and if a car air conditioning costs Rs. 25000, how much extra it should cost > for a bus ? > Ultimately in India , investment cost is more important than even the fuel > cost > let us think about this issue which can make a radical difference to the > approach of people to buses and cars > that is where no public transport can compete with two wheelers > ashok datar > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Sarath Guttikunda > wrote: > >> Dear Lee and Co., >> >> attached is a summary of the results published by Ministry of Urban >> Development in 2008-09 on the passenger travel trends and they tell a good >> story of where the cities are headed. >> >> Important messages on this page: >> >> - As the cities grew (in size of population, which is proxy to the >> geographical size), access to the work places in less than 15 mins > travel >> time decreases >> - As the cities grew, the share of public transport in the form of bus >> transport (percent of passenger trips) increases - which is a good > sign, >> meaning the cities are realizing the importance of promoting public >> transport and more efforts are headed that way as the cities expand >> - As the cities grew, the share of non-motorized transport in the form >> of walking and biking (percent of passenger trips) decreases - which is > the >> sad part of the equation, meaning the role of cars and SUVs is > overtaking >> the need to promote NMT >> - Lower the share of non-motorized transport in the city, lower the >> service index (% trips accessible in less than 15 mins travel time) and >> higher the congestion index, primarily due increase in the personal >> transport >> >> The access to public transport is growing, but not enough to support the >> travel demand growth in the big cities. Figure 3, top right panel, > presents >> the share of passenger trips covered by the public transport against the >> population in the cities. The access to the public transport is high in > the >> megacities, and expected to grow under the JNNURM funds. However, the lack >> of infrastructure in the bus manufacturing sector to supply the necessary >> >> With regards, >> Sarath >> >> -- >> Dr. Sarath Guttikunda, New Delhi, India >> UrbanEmissions.Info | TED Fellow | >> +1(202)683-0937 (till June) >> http://www.dri.edu/sarath-guttikunda >> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From schipper at berkeley.edu Sat Apr 30 01:03:46 2011 From: schipper at berkeley.edu (Lee Schipper) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 09:03:46 -0700 Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: <27EF5D58E0436F49B3E73833C0FB51E23C8395D9E8@dvrpc-ex02.dvrpc.org> References: <1303838293.S.9563.7873.H.TkZhaXphbiBKYXdlZABbc3VzdHJhbl0gUFJUIHByb3Bvc2FsIGZvciBEZWxoaSBjb252aW5jZXMgQ2hpZWY_.pro-237-234.old.1303890402.27345@webmail.rediffmail.com> <-9161617130153268274@unknownmsgid> <002601cc0665$1f7ad930$5e708b90$@org> <27EF5D58E0436F49B3E73833C0FB51E23C8395D9E8@dvrpc-ex02.dvrpc.org> Message-ID: 2% of trips? -- Lee Schipper, Ph.D Project Scientist Global Metropolitan Studies http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/ Street/Mail Address: UC Berkeley Global Metropolitan Studies 1950 Addison 2nd floor, Berkeley. Berkeley CA 94704-2647 +1 510 642 6889, FAX +1 510 642 6061 Cell +1 202 262 7476 skype: mrmeter > I think that's called "dropping the kids off at school". > > Rob > > Robert Graff > Manager, Office of Energy and Climate Change Initiatives > Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission > 215-238-2826 > www.dvrpc.org/EnergyClimate > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+rgraffwork=gmail.com@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+rgraffwork=gmail.com@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of Lee Schipper > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 10:43 AM > To: Todd Alexander Litman > Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister > > "chauffeured trips"? Where Todd. If there is only 1.55 people/car in the > US where are the Chauffers? > > Lee Schipper > Global Met Studies UC Berkeley > Precourt En Eff Center Stanford > > > > On Apr 29, 2011, at 5:00, "Todd Alexander Litman" wrote: > >> There are a number of important factors to consider when comparing >> public >> transit and automobile costs, and therefore when comparing the >> cost-efficiency of roadway versus transit investments. >> >> * Automobiles require a vehicle, road space and parking facilities at >> every >> destination. Rail transit and BRT systems include all of these cost >> components (rights-of-way, vehicles and stations). >> >> * Motor vehicles only serve the portion of travelers who can afford them >> and >> are able to drive or hire a driver. >> >> * A large portion of automobile travel consists of chauffeured trips (a >> special trip made by a driver to deliver a passenger) and so generates >> an >> empty backhaul. Such trips generate one wasted vehicle-km per >> passenger-km >> of travel. >> >> * Expanding urban roadways often simply shifts the location of traffic >> congestion. For example, building an urban highway or flyover tends to >> increase total traffic volumes, which increases congestion on surface >> streets. >> >> * Automobile travel is very resource intensive, requiring 10-100 times >> as >> much land area for roads and parking, and 10-1,000 times as much >> non-renewable energy, as the same trips made by walking, cycling and >> public >> transport (www.planetizen.com/node/46570 ). Most road and parking costs >> are >> subsidized (borne through general taxes and businesses), resulting in >> regressive subsidies of wealthier people at the expense of poorer >> people. >> >> * A typical car is only operated one or two daily hours, compared with >> 14-18 >> for a typical bus. A typical car lasts 10-15 years, a typical bus or >> train >> 15-40 years. Buses and trains are therefore much more efficiently used >> assets. >> >> >> There are also additional factors that should be considered when >> comparing >> bus and PRT. PRT systems require passengers to travel in enclosed "pods" >> with strangers, which creates insecurity problems. They often require >> passengers to walk up several flights of stairs to boarding platforms, >> which >> requires extra time and effort, and elevators at each station to >> accommodate >> people with disabilities and luggage, which increases financial and >> energy >> costs, costs often seem overlooked in project analysis. As a result, >> their >> demand is probably lower and their costs probably higher than proponents >> project. >> >> For illustrations of PRT systems, and other "advanced" transport, visit >> http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/whatsnew.htm . They all look >> great >> in the drawings, but think about what it would actually be like to >> travel in >> a little pod in hot weather after a few years when the plastic is >> scratched >> and cracked, the interior is worn and damaged by vandals, and it smells >> of >> previous passengers' body odor. I think there are good reasons to be >> skeptical about these systems. I suspect that improving walking, cycling >> and >> public transit, and increasing the supply of affordable housing along >> major >> transit corridors, will be far more cost effective investments overall. >> >> This is not to suggest that cities should invest nothing to accommodate >> automobile transport, nor that BRT is the only solution to urban >> transport >> problems, but all of these factors should be considered when evaluating >> and >> comparing options, and determining how they should be financed. In >> general, >> efficiency and equity require that automobile users be charged the full >> costs for the roads, parking facilities and fuel they consume, while >> there >> are good reasons for society to subsidize some public transit costs, and >> where there are conflicts (such as limited road space), favor public >> transit >> over automobile travel, since it is more efficient and equitable. >> >> >> For more information on these issues see: >> >> Todd Litman (2006), "Smart Congestion Reductions II: Reevaluating The >> Role >> Of Public Transit For Improving Urban Transportation," VTPI >> (www.vtpi.org); >> at www.vtpi.org/cong_reliefII.pdf . >> >> Todd Litman (2007), "Evaluating Rail Transit Criticism," Victoria >> Transport >> Policy Institute (www.vtpi.org); at www.vtpi.org/railcrit.pdf . >> >> Todd Litman (2009), "Evaluating Public Transit Benefits and Costs," VTPI >> (www.vtpi.org); at www.vtpi.org/tranben.pdf . This includes sections on >> comparing automobile and transit, and comparing bus and rail. >> >> Todd Litman (2010), "Raise My Taxes, Please! Evaluating Household >> Savings >>> From High Quality Public Transit Service," VTPI (www.vtpi.org); at >> www.vtpi.org/raisetaxes.pdf . >> >> Todd Litman (2010), "The Selfish Automobile," Planetizen >> (www.planetizen.com); at www.planetizen.com/node/46570 . >> >> >> Sincerely, >> Todd Litman >> Victoria Transport Policy Institute (www.vtpi.org) >> litman@vtpi.org >> Phone & Fax 250-360-1560 >> 1250 Rudlin Street, Victoria, BC, V8V 3R7, CANADA >> "Efficiency - Equity - Clarity" >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+litman=vtpi.org@list.jca.apc.org >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+litman=vtpi.org@list.jca.apc.org] On >> Behalf >> Of ashok datar >> Sent: April-28-11 10:52 PM >> To: Sarath Guttikunda >> Cc: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >> Subject: [sustran] Re: PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister >> >> *cost of bus and car per person * >> >> Dear All, >> if we calculate the investment cost per seat in a car vs the same in a >> bus >> we get a disturbing picture >> If a Volvo bus costs a min of Rs. 70 lakhs for 40 seats >> it means the investment per seat is Rs. 1.75 lakhs >> on the other hand , popular cars such as Santro, Indica, Alto etc all >> cost >> around Rs 3 to Rs. 4 lak rupees . >> that means the investment per seat would be Rs one lakh per seat >> why does it have to be so ? >> Earlier , the ordinary BEST used to cost only Rs. 11 lakhs to Rs. 18 >> lakhs- >> obviously they were very basic and the costs are up but in those days >> investment cost per seat in a bus was only Rs. 30 to 40000 >> I think there is something radically wrong that the cost of a bus needs >> to >> be so high in India >> can we not provide good quality 40 seater buses under Rs. 40 lakhs >> and if a car air conditioning costs Rs. 25000, how much extra it should >> cost >> for a bus ? >> Ultimately in India , investment cost is more important than even the >> fuel >> cost >> let us think about this issue which can make a radical difference to the >> approach of people to buses and cars >> that is where no public transport can compete with two wheelers >> ashok datar >> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Sarath Guttikunda >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Lee and Co., >>> >>> attached is a summary of the results published by Ministry of Urban >>> Development in 2008-09 on the passenger travel trends and they tell a >>> good >>> story of where the cities are headed. >>> >>> Important messages on this page: >>> >>> - As the cities grew (in size of population, which is proxy to the >>> geographical size), access to the work places in less than 15 mins >> travel >>> time decreases >>> - As the cities grew, the share of public transport in the form of >>> bus >>> transport (percent of passenger trips) increases - which is a good >> sign, >>> meaning the cities are realizing the importance of promoting public >>> transport and more efforts are headed that way as the cities expand >>> - As the cities grew, the share of non-motorized transport in the >>> form >>> of walking and biking (percent of passenger trips) decreases - which >>> is >> the >>> sad part of the equation, meaning the role of cars and SUVs is >> overtaking >>> the need to promote NMT >>> - Lower the share of non-motorized transport in the city, lower the >>> service index (% trips accessible in less than 15 mins travel time) >>> and >>> higher the congestion index, primarily due increase in the personal >>> transport >>> >>> The access to public transport is growing, but not enough to support >>> the >>> travel demand growth in the big cities. Figure 3, top right panel, >> presents >>> the share of passenger trips covered by the public transport against >>> the >>> population in the cities. The access to the public transport is high in >> the >>> megacities, and expected to grow under the JNNURM funds. However, the >>> lack >>> of infrastructure in the bus manufacturing sector to supply the >>> necessary >>> >>> With regards, >>> Sarath >>> >>> -- >>> Dr. Sarath Guttikunda, New Delhi, India >>> UrbanEmissions.Info | TED Fellow | >>> +1(202)683-0937 (till June) >>> http://www.dri.edu/sarath-guttikunda >>> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit >> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >> (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss > > -------------------------------------------------------- > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Sat Apr 30 17:09:53 2011 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric britton) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 10:09:53 +0200 Subject: [sustran] PRT proposal for Delhi convinces Chief Minister In-Reply-To: <1304148566.1511.32395.m6@yahoogroups.com> References: <1304148566.1511.32395.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <007301cc070d$ff7049a0$fe50dce0$@britton@ecoplan.org> Couple of quick week-end remarks on this group think exercise, if I may? 1. Well, it certainly kicked some life into our group. 2. Not only that, it strikes me that no matter how bizarre the topic (and PRT is indeed pretty bizarre), these exchanges dig usefully into some of the important corners of the continuing policy debate. 3. Another striking thing has been the great tenacity of our PRT friends. Please understand that I do not wish to insult them - because there are a fair number whom I have known for years, including going back in the days of our first studies of PRT back in the early seventies; so you have to admire their tenacity. However their strong unbending nature in the face of the evidence, year after year, decade after decade draw to mind the behavior in Russia of the embattled "Old Believers", who were ready to undergo any form of torture, firm as they were/are (since they still exist) in their faith. Again, you can see their comments and challenges in more detail http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/prt-proposal-for-delhi-convince s-chief-minister-but-does-it-convince-you-see-poll-results/#comments, which I believe provide more evidence of their deep commitment.. 4. And what do you think about the willingness to stuff the ballot boxes, to the extent that today the World Streets poll shows that 60% of those who voted have a favorable view of PRT? To me there is something that is kind of touching about this willingness to "do what it takes" to defend their bastion. And all the more since we live in a time and with technology that permits even a moderately able geek to trace the sources with unfailing accuracy. (I have to say that this does not make me mad, but it does make me grin. At least a bit.) 5. Early next week I will close down the poll, sanitize it (-;) and share the results with you all. We can then put it behind us and get on to more creative topics. Still, it has been fun, and not without its lessons. Eric Britton PS. Several of the PRT defenders make the point that the nice thing about those small pods is that you do not have to share your trip with "other people". Am I a bit dim, or does that not have a very definite anti-social ring to it? From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Sat Apr 30 17:50:30 2011 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric britton) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 10:50:30 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Will the real PRT please stand up Message-ID: <016401cc0713$b1766080$14632180$@britton@ecoplan.org> Nice Dave, Couple of quick points to your observations follow: 1. The W/S reference on this is http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/04/29/op-ed-will-the-real-prt-please- stand-up/ 2. I hope that I did not say that I thought that the M2W solution was Nirvana, in terms of energy efficiency, emissions, driver behavior, encumbrance, safety or whatever of these zooming beasts. What I was trying to convey is that they are a fact, that their modal share is growing, that people chose to go with them for their own excellent individual reasons, and that warts and all they get their owner/passengers where they want to do, when they want to go there, and at a price that defies all competition. I was trying to be descriptive, neutral, and non-judgmental. But also not entirely blind to their reality. 3. What I would dearly like to see now is a certain number of cities giving the example for making what the people have voted for with their wallets and their bottoms, a better deal all around. This will of course take them to matters such as size, type and performance of the engines, provision of road space for safety and efficiency when they are moving, some kind of rationalization when it comes to parking, and a real policy about enforcement. I have often maintained that, like it or not, that people are smarter than government, and that the wise government will realize that and is ready to work with the people and their expressed interests, not only as individuals and today, but for society as a whole and for the long term. That's our responsibility as policy makers/advisors, and that's a job that really does need to be done. Will the real city ready to take the lead and show the way please stand up. Eric Britton Eric, You do like to throw out these zingers on Friday, don' t you? You make a VERY good point about bicycles and scooters being the original PRT. Traffic congestion in these cities is NOT being caused by scooters. That said, I think you're being too charitable calling scooter engines "pretty efficient". Possibly, "relatively fuel efficient" compared to a 1 or 2 ton automobile but even 100 mpg for a scooter compared to 30 mpg for a small car doesn't seem very efficient to me (sorry all, I don't have the Liters per 100 KM conversion). But the worst thing that even the 4 cycle engines pollute like crazy compared to any current generation gasoline vehicle! Given the large numbers of very similar scooter designs, it has always baffled me that Asian governments haven't provided some incentives for some to sell retrofit kits for the biggest selling models for electricity or at least natural gas, and, of course, provide incentives for people to buy them (or offer a scooter scrap program). I understand that in the middle point of the economic ladder people don't want the wind (and sun and rain) in their hair when they're traveling. So why aren't there aren't more partially enclosed scooter designs to serve the lower end of the market? For better and worse, we (in every country) are constrained by the categories of vehicles that get defined in our laws. In the US we could use a legal definition of a practical medium speed vehicle that could be manufactured and sold for $6,000 - $8,000 (remember the itMoves? http://itmoves.us/pages/product That's my 2? for Friday! Dave Brook Portland, Oregon Web: www.carsharing.us Twitter: carsharing_us On Apr 29, 2011, at 12:42 AM, eric britton wrote: Somebody wake me up on this please. 1. If we look on the streets of any city in the Global South, we see PRT, personal rapid transport, all over the place. 2. In the form of cheap motorized two wheelers with pretty energy-efficient engines, enough road space to get the trip done, and free parking right next to where you want to go. 3. There is no way that the old mid-20th century PRT folks can even start to compete with that. 4. But if this is the on-street reality, which of course it is, please show me the city or research program that is showing the way in getting the most out of this stubborn reality. 5. Who is making the best things about it better yet? 6. And who is getting some kind of control of the worst? We need a new policy paradigm for this, let's call it, the people's PRT. Of course it's part of the problem, but it is also clear that it is a major part of the solution, as anyone with even an ounce of experience and common sense can see. And policy makers, advisors and proponents of sustainable cities we will continue to ignore it at our peril. Take the city of Kaohsiung as just one salient example: 1.5 million people, 1.2 million scooters, and something like three quarters of the modal split. And all this in parallel with an absolutely gorgeous new state of the art six billion dollar metro that started to go out of business on Day 1 of its opening and ever since, because it simply cannot compete in terms of trip time, convenient or price. Shouldn't we be working on this ? along with the on-street reality options such as BRT, HOV access, parking control, strategic speed control, safe walking and cycling, and all that we know are parts of the solution -- instead of wasting our time with these long disproven, whack-a-mole PRT proposals that clearly have no place in our cities How to get the message across to the policy makers and politicians? This has been good fun, but Brendan Finn has it right. These PRT enthusiasts are distracting us at a time when we need all our brains and focus for the real stuff. Out they go. Eric Britton Some reference points: ? Sustran list comments - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sustran-discuss/message/6637 ? World Streets article of 26 April- http://wp.me/psKUY-1A9 ? CityFix article of 27 April- http://thecityfix.com/can-pod-cars-transform-traffic-in-delhi/ ? Facebook group - http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_217653324914604 ? World Streets Poll - http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/prt-proposal-for-delhi-convince s-chief-minister-but-does-it-convince-you-see-poll-results/ (Note on the poll results: It has in the last 24 hours been contaminated by no less than 106 visits from a single Comcast Cable site in one city in the United States, with the result that exactly 65 votes have been recorded in favor of PRT as a solution from the one site. Now that's interesting.) From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Sat Apr 30 17:50:30 2011 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric britton) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 10:50:30 +0200 Subject: [sustran] PRT Promoters Stuff World Streets Ballot Box/PRT and the Public Process Message-ID: <016a01cc0713$b2d1d1d0$18757570$@britton@ecoplan.org> This just in from Ken Avidor who has been following the PRT trail for some years in the public interest. I share this with you all since it shows something about this embattled community. I particularly like their plaintive call: . "Please don't forget to cast your vote and ask your friends to cast one in support of PRT here. It seems to be a biased discussion here and PRT will need your support." And we have indeed noticed and shall be able to deal with that without a problem. The rest follows: -----Original Message----- From: Ken Avidor [mailto:ken.avidor@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, 29 April, 2011 20:00 To: editor Subject: PRT Promoters Stuff the World Streets Ballot Box/PRT and the Public Process Eric, Thanks for a fair discussion about PRT. PRT promoter Peter Muller posted an email he received from the Director International Development for Capita Symonds on a forum for PRT aficionados: http://bit.ly/jIjg1e "Please don't forget to cast your vote and ask your friends to cast one in support of PRT here. It seems to be a biased discussion here and PRT will need your support." Peter Muller is a self-styled "PRT consultant". Muller's Twitter handle is "PRT Guru": http://twitter.com/#!/PRTGURU/status/63962273324085248 There is also a "PRT Princess": http://twitter.com/#!/PRTprincess On You Tube, Muller is "Podcar Guru" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2cu4Jh_rJ8 The shenanigans of the pod promoters would all be a very silly joke if it weren't for their insistence that the public fund their schemes. I have an editorial published in the Winona Daily News about how the public is nearly always shut out of the decision-making about PRT: http://bit.ly/d04gat Ken Avidor: Let the public have a voice in PRT Boston Personal Rapid Transit promoter Lawrence J. Fabian in his Sept. 23 letter chided the citizens of Winona for their lack of enthusiasm for the PRT plan proposed by the city of Winona. "If Winona wants to think small," scolds Fabian. An interesting criticism when you consider that Winonans never really had an opportunity to comment or ask questions in a public forum about the PRT project. According to a Jan. 20 article in the Winona Daily News, a meeting where the public could have asked questions was for Winona City Council members only, "While there was little discussion of PRT during the meeting, the vote came after council members examined the system during a pre-council informational session that lasted more than one hour." I recall a similar PRT "informational session" for Minneapolis city officials only on March 26, 2005. When a proposal for a PRT project later came up for a vote in committee, the PRT promoters failed to show up and the matter was tabled. More recently, public officials in Daventry, England, complained that PRT promoters would not show up at public forums to answer questions. The Minnesota Department of Transportation held a "PRT workshop" Aug. 18, which cost $50 to attend and was not a public meeting. Why are PRT promoters avoiding the public? When the city of Winona revisits the issue of PRT, as it has recently indicated it would, I would suggest they hold a free, public forum and invite critics as well as promoters. I would also suggest inviting experts in the field; transit engineers, transit advocacy groups and environmental groups. But most of all, I urge Winona city officials to invite the public. Grassroots support for any big public project is essential. For it is the citizens who will end up paying for it- and if built, living with it. ---- Thanks again, -Avidor