[sustran] Re: First urban railway route in Hanoi under construction

[Lee Schipper]

AD's point about costs must be underscored. Cost per unit of capacity (i.e., money/person-hour ) and money/km of line have to be weigh carefully. Where surface is a lot cheaper than a Metro because of low land costs, one still can consider whether a BRT line can be the first step, replaced by fixed rail when growth of ridership and development of the corridor justify the heavier system.

One reason we went for Metrobus in Mexico City along its busiest street was the soils would not tolerate more metro, and probably no heavy rail. (Light rail is running there elsewhere, not to mention lots of metro lines.) what has NOT been achieved yet there- or to my knowledge anywhere in India- is an integrated system with all modes on the same smart card. What is impressive, for example, is the Karnataka State Bus terminal in Bangalore, where thousands of two wheelers are neatly parked next to the spaces for dozens of buses.  But the Autorickshaws are not integrated. Will a new metro in Bangalore pass this station?  

Lee Schipper, Ph.D
Project Scientist
Global Metropolitan Studies

1950 Addison St #202
University of California Berkeley 
CA 94704-USA

TEL +1 510 642 6889
FAX +1 510 642 6061
CELL +1 202 262 7476  
skype: mrmeter
http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/

Senior Research Engineer
Precourt Energy Efficiency Center
Stanford University
 


-----Original Message-----
From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of AD
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 7:43 PM
To: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
Subject: [sustran] Re: First urban railway route in Hanoi under construction

Dear Mr. Padiyar,

You wrote "According to global standards for rail based public transport, this is the only alternative available for meeting the demand
- Tokyo, Hong Kong...".I thought some BRT systems if planned properly can technically get the same capacity as rail-based public transport.

For me, which technology (subway, light rail, BRT) is used is not that important because they are all mass transit. What government in a developing country should concern is how to use as less as possible money on mass transit option (of course with the same capacity) so that the extra money can be used to invest in improving pedestrian condition, which actually is the underlying prerequisite for any bus/rail trip. 


And also, as mentioned by Lee Schipper, any of these mass transit has to compete with motorcycles (or in other words - convenience). Therefore by taking the existing road space for its busways, BRT does the job better than its
counterparts: subway or elevated rail.

With best regards,

AD.


________________________________
From: Lee Schipper <schipper at wri.org>
To: K P Padiyar <kppadiyar at gmail.com>; sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 12:52:02 AM
Subject: [sustran] Re: First urban railway route in Hanoi under construction

I think it is worth mentioning that Hanoi has at least twice the ownership rate of two-wheelers of any city in India, more than 1 two wheeler per household. That means that any urban rail way or BRT (one of each is under development) has to compete with one of the most motorized populations in the entire world. Here is a bit of background from my EMBARQ days.
http://www.embarq.org/en/our-work/publications/hanoi-vietnam
Commuting distances are relatively short, one reason why the conventional bus system started 10 years ago and two wheelers are so popular, not to mention conventional bicycles and even more conventional feet. There is a master plan for developing more distant suburbs where an urban rail network could be useful, but that may depend on how the authorities deal with the cost of two wheeler fuel and whether there is a sensible way of charging for increasingly crowded road space in the main parts of Hanoi.


Lee Schipper, Ph.D.
Project Scientist, Global Metropolitan Studies, UC Berkeley Senior Research Engineer, Precourt Energy Efficiency Center, Stanford Univ.
phone +1 510 642 6889
fax      +1 510 642 6061
cell for emergencies +1 202 262 7476


-----Original Message-----
From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org
[mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of K P Padiyar
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 10:44 AM
To: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
Subject: [sustran] Re: First urban railway route in Hanoi under construction

Dear All,

Even though I have subscribed to this group since 2005, I have not participated in their discussions so far. With my background of more than 16 years of my service life in operating maintaining, planning and designing suburban rail services of Indian Railways in Mumbai which today carries nearly 7 million passengers daily on 5 HRT corridors of which two carry main line passenger and freight traffic also. Design capacity of these corridors is 1.2 million for dedicated corridors and half that for mainline corridors, I felt emboldened to muscle in on the august array of transport specialists on this issue.

According to Demografia 2008, Hanoi is the second largest city of Vietnam with a population of 3 million with average population density of 154.5 persons/ha. According to global standards for rail based public transport, this is the only alternative available for meeting the demand
- Tokyo, Hong Kong. Mumbai Moscow. (Dr. Kenworthy's work for UITP and WB in 1990s.). Hanoi is planning for a capacity of  28000 pphpd which works out as 467 000 trips/day which is low compared to likely demand with CBD densities (Job +
population) exceeding 300 as in Mumbai where Mumbai Island has a density of 800/ha.

Mumbai also had difficulties in acquiring land for Railways which was solved by promulgating TDR for the entire Mumbai Metropolitan Region with an estimated population of 21 million (17 million in 2001, 2011 census results are not yet out). It was an innovative solution first issued by local State Government in 1991 and now copied by other metros of India. Even US is having such rules in some cities with heavy rail.
Vietnam has a technical collaboration agreement with India, since it was was united and IR has participated in some of their projects for Railways. 
Mumbai has a separate Joint sector Corporation Mumbai Rail Vikas Corporation undertaking Railway component of Mumbai Urban Transport Projects Jointly funder by IBRD, Indian Government (through IR) and Maharashtra Government. 
They are available at  www.mrvc.indianrail.gov.in   Sanctioned projects 
under execution are about 2 billion dollars.

Members of the group needing additional information on Indian high capacity public transport systems  can contact me and I will try my best to get it from original sources. IR uses wide bodied coaches 3667 mm and Dual traction system 1500 V. D.C. (under replacement) and 25 kV single phase 50 Hz system in Mumbai and other metropolitan areas. However Hanoi project as per data on the site quoted in the letter, mentions Chinese Government's aid for the project.

Ho Chi Minh city in Vietnam has recently got Japanese aid for a Metro Rail System Project (Financed by the Japan Special Fund) under ADB aegis www.adb.org/projects/project.asp?id=39500.

With regards.

K. P. Padiyar



--------------------------------------------------
From: "AD" <banmt at yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 5:56 PM
To: <sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
Subject: [sustran] First urban railway route in Hanoi under construction

> Source:
> http://english.vietnamnet.vn/social/201009/First-urban-railway-route-i
> n-Hanoi-under-construction-937891/
>
>
> Looking forward to see the fare and wonder how could they make it more

> tempted than that of riding a motorcycle for people.
>
>
>
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