[sustran] Re: Is park-and-ride a bad idea for Asian cities?

[Cornie Huizenga]

Dear All,

I am trying to get my head around this. If we make parking impossible around
stations would the implication not be that people use their car for all of
their travel into the city? Is that what we want?

Cornie

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 7:53 AM, Todd Edelman <edelman at greenidea.eu> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Just to add one thing: It seems clear that parking should be restricted
> or impossible (except for residents) within a few hundred metres of any
> new stations, or drivers will just create their own informal park &
> ride, or of create incentive for some clever, private landowner to build
> a lot themselves...
>
> - T
>
> On 05/13/2010 05:58 PM, Karthik Rao Cavale wrote:
> > Mr. Jain,
> >
> > You have not elaborated on your argument for park&  ride facilities in
> > Mumbai, but I would strongly oppose it for several reasons. Let me
> explain:
> >
> > a) As a transportation planner, one is expected to put himself in the
> shoes
> > of the "aam aadmi" (the typical person/user). Planning based on
> > *your*experience and needs alone is bad planning, very very bad
> > planning,
> > especially when you are very far removed from the common man.
> >
> > Now, consider this. Automobile ownership in Bombay is very low for a city
> > given its relative economic prosperity by Indian standards. A very large
> > majority of people either walk to the station or transfer from another
> mode
> > of public transport - possibly an auto-rickshaw or a bus. By adding a
> park
> > and ride, you either require buses to make detours to drop passengers
> just
> > outside the station or for passengers to walk a longer distance. For
> people
> > walking to the station, you're putting more distance between the station
> and
> > the nearest development - which means more walking.
> >
> > Essentially, for the sake of a very small number of vehicle owners who
> may
> > or may not end up using the park and ride, you're taxing a whole lot of
> > bus-users and pedestrians in terms of time.
> >
> > b) If, god forbid, my previous statement turns out to be wrong and people
> > start shifting from buses to two-wheelers because it is now possible to
> park
> > at the metro station, then you'll end up choking the roads in the suburbs
> -
> > which will defeat the entire purpose of spending billions on the metro!
> It
> > will make roads even more unsafe, and worsen living conditions for those
> who
> > have no choice but to walk or cycle.
> >
> > c) You speak of unsafe roads as if that is a constant that cannot be
> > changed. If that were the case, then I might grudgingly understand your
> > support for park-and-ride facilities.
> >
> > But roads CAN be made safer for pedestrians and cyclists. To do so, we
> need
> > to create sidewalks, and we need to create curb-separated cycle lanes and
> we
> > need to enforce laws, but it can be done.
> >
> > d) To the extent that a park-and-ride offers some relief to some persons
> in
> > the middle class (while worsening the problems of the poor), that is even
> > worse, because it only reduces the pressure on governments to solve the
> > common problems that need to be solved for the sake of all residents in
> the
> > city.
> >
> > What we really need is a coordinated policy that will discourage cars and
> > two-wheelers - for the sake of safety, for the sake of mobility and
> access
> > for all, for the sake of efficiency even. That is the way we go from the
> > not-so-good present to a better future. Providing a metro with a
> > park-and-ride may go one step in this direction, as it probably does some
> > service to reducing the number of trips carried out entirely by private
> > transport, but it takes us two steps backward because now there will be
> so
> > much more traffic on the suburban roads in Charkop and Andheri. In the
> > process, it excacerbates the inequalities in the transportation system,
> by
> > forcing pedestrians and bus-users to make longer, more unsafe, and more
> > inconvenient trips (think of the pollution on the roads), while giving
> the
> > middle class a modicum of relief - and that too only when they are using
> > their vehicles. Many people in the middle class don't drive - old people,
> > women and children tend to make short trips entirely by walk or cycle,
> and
> > the situation arising out of the metro-cum-park-and-ride will only make
> > their lives even more difficult.
> >
> > I will not speak of the third world in general - we plan for places, and
> > places cannot be generalized. But in the specific context of Bombay, and
> the
> > metro coming up between Charkop and Ghatkopar, I can say with certainty
> that
> > a park-and-ride will only result in disaster.
> >
> > On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Zvi Leve<zvi.leve at gmail.com>  wrote:
> >
> >
> >> In my opinion, Park&  Ride should only be considered a temporary stage
> of
> >> development, unless it is provided within the context of much denser
> >> development (ie muli-level parking with other intense land-uses).
> Massive
> >> parking lots surrounding a single mass-transit node is not "development"
> -
> >> it is anti-development! Would you enjoy walking across this beautiful
> >> parking lot<http://www.flickr.com/photos/zvileve/4600137869/>  to get
> to
> >> the
> >> equally beautiful light-rail station? In the scorching heat? Most of the
> >> day
> >> these lots are filled with cars and at night they completely empty. This
> is
> >> just not sustainable.
> >>
> >> Why not develop some *quality* commercial and service points in close
> >> proximity to the station, plop down four big towers on top (two
> >> residential,
> >> two for offices) at each corner to act as 'anchors'  and create a
> vibrant
> >> activity node which will have demand for mass-transit throughout the
> day. I
> >> appreciate thta the trends in most of these "newly motorizing" countries
> is
> >> away from anything that reminds people of density ("I have made it - I
> have
> >> my car"), but there are other forms of "development" which might even be
> >> sustainable.....
> >>
> >> There is an interesting article in a recent issue of the journal
> Mobilities
> >> by John Rennie Short and Luis Mauricio Pinet-Peralto about the epidemic
> of
> >> traffic accidents in cities in the "developing" world. The name is very
> >> appropriate (the "no accident" part) - No Accident: Traffic and
> Pedestrians
> >> in the Modern City<
> >>
> http://prod.informaworld.com/smpp/section?content=a917906422&fulltext=713240928
> >>
> >>>
> >> .
> >>
> >> Good luck selling that argument....
> >>
> >> Zvi
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>
>
> --
>
> Todd Edelman
> Green Idea Factory,
> a member of the OPENbike team
>
> Mobile: ++49(0)162 814 4081
> Immobile: ++49(0)30 7554 0001
>
> edelman at greenidea.eu
> www.greenidea.eu
> todd at openbike.se
> www.openbike.se
>
> Skype: toddedelman
>
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>
> ***
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>



-- 
Cornie Huizenga
Joint Convener
Partnership on Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport
Mobile: +86 13901949332
cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org
www.slocat.net