[sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses

Bert Fabian bert.fabian at cai-asia.org
Tue Mar 16 11:25:34 JST 2010


Nice one Sudhir... "I've been a very bad road designer..." :-) I'm sure you
were not.

Problem with these overpasses in several areas here in the Philippines is
that it's being used as a political propaganda by several politicians
showing false progress. Also, there are cases, where it's perfectly ok to
retain at-grade crossings because traffic cycle time can allow pedestrians
to cross and especially when traffic is at standstill; but because there are
overpasses, traffic enforcers simply don't allow people to use the street to
cross at-grade.

Dear Carlos,
Sudhir and I had a discussion with the General Manager of the Metro Manila
Development Authority because in one of our meetings last Nov we told him,
that installing overpasses in all junctions and not allowing pedestrians to
cross at-grade is not the trend if you look at other cities, especially in
Europe. Of course, he challenged us to provide such studies or reports which
indicate this. Unfortunately, there are not really many. In the report,
we're preparing we will be able to show that pedestrian preference points to
at-grade crossings.

I agree with Walter that perhaps having a hardline on this issue will not be
constructive after all. This goes back to the discussion of convincing the
authorities to truly prioritize people over vehicles. In the case of Metro
Manila, these traffic junction overpasses are clearly constructed to improve
over-all traffic flow, as it is an indicator for the authorities that they
are fixing the traffic congestion problem.

Dear Colin,
Good that you found preference for at-grade crossings in your work in the
Philippines. We have also conducted some pedestrian preference surveys and
results vary on the preference for crossings.  In our Manila survey, we also
got more preference for at-grade crossings but for Davao, majority was for
overpasses. It would be interesting to see your results, if you can share
this. I believe you conducted your user needs analysis for Cebu?

Best regards,
Bert


On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Sudhir <sudhir at cai-asia.org> wrote:

> I agree with Joachim... if only we can provide the best space ......
>
> I have been a very bad road designer in past and used to use many
> thumbrules ( which people call as guidelines) when designing the roads. I
> have realized over time that people are bound to take shortest and
> convenient route many a times irrespective of risks involved. Thus you see
> people running across in the road below a overpass. This explains the
> non-usage of bad overpass.
> In order to even prevent that we have used 1m medians to prevent people
> from
> thinking at-grade...
>
> Providing an overpass one needs to marry geometry with landscape....there
> are only few good asian examples of this...
>
> for the bad examples there are thousands...
>
> see this photo which i consider the best example of our mindset...
>
> i took this in cebu and was shocked when i saw this "wonder of new world"
>
>
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yhbUFBRBDMo/SgeA8NTVOYI/AAAAAAAAAD4/C-42VqEK3_4/s1600-h/Picture+1031.jpg
>
> cheers
> Sudhir
>
>
> On 16 March 2010 01:46, Joachim Bergerhoff <
> joachim.bergerhoff at unhabitat-kosovo.org> wrote:
>
> > Let's consider that, by definition, the street is where the pedestrians
> and
> > cyclists are.  If the street must go over or under a thick stream of
> > motorised traffic flow, so be it.  What matters is that this "over- or
> > under- pass-street" is a real street with all the positive features that
> it
> > should have from the point of view of non-motorised users: short
> > connection,
> > ample space, no obstacles for mobility impaired, safety, attractiveness,
> > etc.  An overpass can provide all this, if it is well designed at macro
> and
> > micro scale.  It will not even be perceived as an overpass any longer,
> > because it IS the street and the motor traffic is now underground
> relative
> > to it.  This is of course difficult to achieve in many places, for
> physical
> > and funding reasons.  But I suggest that anybody who considers an over-
> or
> > under-pass solution should have this vision in mind.
> > Yours,
> > Joachim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 15 March 2010 18:07, Walter Hook <whook at itdp.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Well, certainly we generally agree that its best to have at grade, but
> we
> > > tend to live in a second best world.
> > >
> > > We tend to recommend that brt stations be placed away from junctions
> > > because
> > > otherwise it slows down the busway because of bus stop/traffic signal
> > > interference, as witnessed in Delhi, significantly slowing both bus
> > speeds
> > > and mixed traffic speeds.  Placing the bus stop next to the
> intersection
> > > has
> > > its ideological merits but frequently results in slower speeds and
> > capacity
> > > not only for motorists and also for bus passengers.
> > >
> > > This offset makes it more complicated for pedestrians who have to cross
> > mid
> > > block somewhere.  Some BRT roads still have three mixed traffic lanes
> > even
> > > mid block, though not very many.  TransMilenio does.  TransJakarta
> does,
> > > etc.  Maybe the road is a national road carrying a lot of long distance
> > > truck traffic, a lot of charter buses, minibuses, shared taxis, who
> > knows.
> > >
> > > Sure, the best solution for three or more lanes of mixed traffic per
> > > direction might be a slow bump before the mid block ped crossing, and
> an
> > > elevated crosswalk, and a ped crossing signal, IF the traffic signal
> > phase
> > > for pedstrians is reasonably short, when there are three lanes or more
> of
> > > mixed traffic to cross, but many such roads are wide national roads
> where
> > > there are currently restrictions against slow bumps and other major
> > > administrative and political hurdles which you just cannot overcome in
> a
> > > short time.
> > >
> > > If you just make people cross at grade but fail to provide a safe
> > crossing
> > > environment for whatever reason, it is probably better to have a
> > pedestrian
> > > flyover in a second best world.  I've tried to cross mid-block in
> Jakarta
> > > at
> > > an at-grade traffic signal where I had to wait for the signal for a
> long
> > > time and then NOBODY respected the pedestrian crossing signal anyway,
> and
> > I
> > > can tell you, in that situation I am very happy for the locations where
> > > there is a pedestrian overpass.
> > >
> > > That doesnt mean there should not also be an  at grade crossing.  i am
> > all
> > > for giving the pedestrians as many choices as possible.
> > >
> > > So while it is fairly easy to take an ideological position on the
> matter,
> > > there may be a lot of local factors and political realities that dont
> > give
> > > two hoots about a pure ideological position and actually do care about
> > > traffic flow, etc.
> > >
> > > So if we offer an at grade option, would we still be against also
> > providing
> > > a pedestrian overpass?
> > >
> > > Pedestrian overpass design matters a lot.  many of them are too high,
> the
> > > gradient is too steep, etc.  What if there are escalators or elevators?
> > >
> > > In some cases they get used by a lot of people who are simply trying to
> > > cross the street who have trouble crossing the street anyway, in
> > conditions
> > > where despite YEARS of advocacy efforts we have simply FAILED to
> convince
> > > the authorities to improve the surface condition.
> > >
> > > So, I am not sure a hard line against them is constructive.
> > >
> > > best
> > > walter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory <
> > > edelman at greenidea.eu> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > First - I hope this does not seem and odd question - for the
> "experts"
> > > > whom Carlos spoke of and others who ask ITDP about it, etc, what is
> the
> > > > conceptual or philosophical starting point for a "street"? (And I
> mean
> > > > all spaces for life between buildings, to paraphrase our dear Mr
> Gehl).
> > > > Is the simple space between buildings the natural street, with
> > > > everything else adding both positive (e.g. fast collective public
> > > > transport, access for emergency vehicles) and/or negative (e.g. any
> > > > private automobiles, or at least those moving over typical cycling
> > speed)
> > > >
> > > > Or is the starting point the
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> total-Hell-we-need-a-flyover-dont-we?-children-are-scared-to-cross-BUT-if-vehicles
> > > > dont-move-fast-enough-the-same-children-will-somehow-starve road?
> > > >
> > > > Second - for wider streets with heavy/fast road vehicles - why not a
> > > > pedestrian signal which allows the slowest walking people to cross in
> > > > one go (no islands), assuming they get to the edge just as the light
> > > > turns green for them? Or on any major pedestrian routes, how about
> > > > having a "green wave" <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_wave> for
> > > > pedestrians with signals based on walking speed along a single route?
> I
> > > > see no need at all for a pedestrian flyover, even for streets with
> BRT
> > > > or light rail and close intervals.  So I am agreeing with Colin, but
> > > > Walter, you seem to have some reason to disagree but I can't figure
> out
> > > > what it is...
> > > >
> > > > - Todd (in Europe, on a pretty busy street)
> > > >
> > > > Walter Hook wrote:
> > > > > we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and under
> > many
> > > > > contexts.  I believe that some basic general principals can be
> > followed
> > > > but
> > > > > also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted.  People can normally
> > cross
> > > > two
> > > > > lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not
> > three
> > > or
> > > > > more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be
> > respected.
> > > > >  even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, but
> as
> > a
> > > > rule
> > > > > of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and
> three
> > > > lanes
> > > > > of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better.
> > > > >
> > > > > w.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader <brader at itpworld.net
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> Dear Carlos
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken  user
> > > needs
> > > > >> analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the
> > > > >> Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade
> > crossings.
> > > I
> > > > >> believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the
> > > at-grade
> > > > >> crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian
> > > volume,
> > > > >> appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is
> > such
> > > > >> that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not
> > > > >> require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take
> full
> > > > >> consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being
> > > > >> placed.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards
> > > > >> Colin Brader
> > > > >> Director
> > > > >> Integrated Transport Planning Ltd
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net@
> list.jca.apc.org
> > > > >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader<sustran-discuss-bounces%2Bbrader>
> <sustran-discuss-bounces%2Bbrader>
> > <sustran-discuss-bounces%2Bbrader>
> > > <sustran-discuss-bounces%2Bbrader><sustran-discuss-bounces%2Bbrader>=
> > > > >> itpworld.net at list.jca.apc.org] On
> > > > >> Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo
> > > > >> Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42
> > > > >> To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport
> > > > >> Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hi,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of
> > > > >> level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries
> in
> > > > >> Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as
> a
> > > > >> fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and
> even
> > > > >> pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety"
> in
> > a
> > > > >> crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing!
> > > I've
> > > > >> been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a
> specific
> > > > >> overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they
> > don't
> > > > >> understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they
> > are
> > > > >> also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to
> many
> > > > >> (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car
> must
> > > just
> > > > >>
> > > > >> whizz by).
> > > > >>
> > > > >> This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Best regards,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Carlos.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they
> > simply
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just
> > > > >> before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply
> > > notices.
> > > > >> But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines
> > of
> > > > >> "improving traffic."
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> ________________________________
> > > > >>> From: Eric Britton<eric.britton at ecoplan.org>
> > > > >>> To: Cornie Huizenga<cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org>;
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> jane.<voodikon at yahoo.com>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Cc: Salil Bijur<salilb at gmail.com>; Global 'South' Sustainable
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> Transport<sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>;
> > > > >> Kanchan<kittykanchan at gmail.com>; JasonChang<skchang at ntu.edu.tw>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM
> > > > >>> Subject: Pedestrian Budget
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e.,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> walkers,
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers
> can
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> arrive
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how
> the
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> concept
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> is otherwise billed.)
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Do I have that right?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Kind thanks for informing,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Best/Eric Britton
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be  an excellent
> > truth-seeking
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> piece
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced
> coverage
> > > of
> > > > >>> course. Candidates?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> World Streets  .  www.worldstreets.org
> > > > >>> 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara  .  Paris 75006 France
> > > > >>> +331 7550 3788  .  eric.britton at newmobility.org  .  Skype
> > > newmobility
> > > > >>> New Mobility Partnerships   . www.partners.newmobility.org
> > > > >>> 9440 Readcrest Drive  .   Los Angeles, CA 90210
> > > > >>> +1 213 984 1277 .  fekbritton at gmail.org .  Skype ericbritton
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >>> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > > > >>>
> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >>> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join
> the
> > > > real
> > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> ================================================================
> > > > >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of
> people-centred,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> > > countries
> > > > >> (the 'Global South').
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > > > >>
> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
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> the
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> > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ================================================================
> > > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of
> people-centred,
> > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> > > countries
> > > > >> (the 'Global South').
> > > > >> --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > > > >>
> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> > > > >> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join
> the
> > > > real
> > > > >> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ================================================================
> > > > >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of
> people-centred,
> > > > >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> > > countries
> > > > >> (the 'Global South').
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > --------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Todd Edelman
> > > > Green Idea Factory
> > > >
> > > > Urbanstr. 45
> > > > D-10967 Berlin
> > > > Germany
> > > >
> > > > Skype: toddedelman
> > > > Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081
> > > >
> > > > edelman at greenidea.eu
> > > > www.greenidea.eu
> > > > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman
> > > >
> > > > CAR* is over. If you want it.
> > > >
> > > > "Fort mit der Privatautostadt und was Neues hingebaut!"
> > > > - B. Brecht (with slight modification)
> > > >
> > > > * "Car" is a sub-category of automobile, i.e. one used
> inappropriately,
> > > > opportunistically or without creativity
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> > > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the
> > real
> > > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> > > >
> > > > ================================================================
> > > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> > > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> > countries
> > > > (the 'Global South').
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Walter Hook
> > > Executive Director
> > > Institute for Transportation and Development Policy
> > > 127 W 26 St, Ste 1002
> > > New York, NY 10001
> > > 1-212-629-8001
> > > www.itdp.org
> > >
> > > Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide.
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> > > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the
> real
> > > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> > >
> > > ================================================================
> > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> countries
> > > (the 'Global South').
> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> > http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real
> > sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> >
> > ================================================================
> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> > (the 'Global South').
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Sudhir Gota
> Transport Specialist
> CAI-Asia Center
> Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower,
> ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City
> Metro Manila, Philippines 1605
> Tel: +63-2-395-2843
> Fax: +63-2-395-2846
> Visit our new portal: www.cleanairinitiative.org
> Skype : sudhirgota
> --------------------------------------------------------
> To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
> http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
> http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real
> sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
>
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> (the 'Global South').
>



-- 


Herbert G. Fabian
Transport Program Manager
CAI-Asia Center
Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower,
ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City
Metro Manila, Philippines 1605
Tel: +63-2-395-2843
Fax: +63-2-395-2846
Skype: bertfabian
http://www.cleanairinitiative.org


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