[sustran] Re: Pedestrian overpasses

[Walter Hook]

Well, certainly we generally agree that its best to have at grade, but we
tend to live in a second best world.

We tend to recommend that brt stations be placed away from junctions because
otherwise it slows down the busway because of bus stop/traffic signal
interference, as witnessed in Delhi, significantly slowing both bus speeds
and mixed traffic speeds.  Placing the bus stop next to the intersection has
its ideological merits but frequently results in slower speeds and capacity
not only for motorists and also for bus passengers.

This offset makes it more complicated for pedestrians who have to cross mid
block somewhere.  Some BRT roads still have three mixed traffic lanes even
mid block, though not very many.  TransMilenio does.  TransJakarta does,
etc.  Maybe the road is a national road carrying a lot of long distance
truck traffic, a lot of charter buses, minibuses, shared taxis, who knows.

Sure, the best solution for three or more lanes of mixed traffic per
direction might be a slow bump before the mid block ped crossing, and an
elevated crosswalk, and a ped crossing signal, IF the traffic signal phase
for pedstrians is reasonably short, when there are three lanes or more of
mixed traffic to cross, but many such roads are wide national roads where
there are currently restrictions against slow bumps and other major
administrative and political hurdles which you just cannot overcome in a
short time.

If you just make people cross at grade but fail to provide a safe crossing
environment for whatever reason, it is probably better to have a pedestrian
flyover in a second best world.  I've tried to cross mid-block in Jakarta at
an at-grade traffic signal where I had to wait for the signal for a long
time and then NOBODY respected the pedestrian crossing signal anyway, and I
can tell you, in that situation I am very happy for the locations where
there is a pedestrian overpass.

That doesnt mean there should not also be an  at grade crossing.  i am all
for giving the pedestrians as many choices as possible.

So while it is fairly easy to take an ideological position on the matter,
there may be a lot of local factors and political realities that dont give
two hoots about a pure ideological position and actually do care about
traffic flow, etc.

So if we offer an at grade option, would we still be against also providing
a pedestrian overpass?

Pedestrian overpass design matters a lot.  many of them are too high, the
gradient is too steep, etc.  What if there are escalators or elevators?

In some cases they get used by a lot of people who are simply trying to
cross the street who have trouble crossing the street anyway, in conditions
where despite YEARS of advocacy efforts we have simply FAILED to convince
the authorities to improve the surface condition.

So, I am not sure a hard line against them is constructive.

best
walter



On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory <
edelman at greenidea.eu> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> First - I hope this does not seem and odd question - for the "experts"
> whom Carlos spoke of and others who ask ITDP about it, etc, what is the
> conceptual or philosophical starting point for a "street"? (And I mean
> all spaces for life between buildings, to paraphrase our dear Mr Gehl).
> Is the simple space between buildings the natural street, with
> everything else adding both positive (e.g. fast collective public
> transport, access for emergency vehicles) and/or negative (e.g. any
> private automobiles, or at least those moving over typical cycling speed)
>
> Or is the starting point the
>
> total-Hell-we-need-a-flyover-dont-we?-children-are-scared-to-cross-BUT-if-vehicles
> dont-move-fast-enough-the-same-children-will-somehow-starve road?
>
> Second - for wider streets with heavy/fast road vehicles - why not a
> pedestrian signal which allows the slowest walking people to cross in
> one go (no islands), assuming they get to the edge just as the light
> turns green for them? Or on any major pedestrian routes, how about
> having a "green wave" <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_wave> for
> pedestrians with signals based on walking speed along a single route? I
> see no need at all for a pedestrian flyover, even for streets with BRT
> or light rail and close intervals.  So I am agreeing with Colin, but
> Walter, you seem to have some reason to disagree but I can't figure out
> what it is...
>
> - Todd (in Europe, on a pretty busy street)
>
> Walter Hook wrote:
> > we've been asked to advise on this issue in many cities and under many
> > contexts.  I believe that some basic general principals can be followed
> but
> > also a gut feeling is usually to be trusted.  People can normally cross
> two
> > lanes of reasonably high speed traffic reasonably easily but not three or
> > more if they are not at a traffic signal that is going to be respected.
> >  even two lanes are hard if the average speeds are very high, but as a
> rule
> > of thumb, i would say two lanes of mixed traffic, at grade, and three
> lanes
> > of mixed traffic probably a flyover is better.
> >
> > w.
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Colin Brader <brader at itpworld.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Dear Carlos
> >>
> >> I think you may be generalising a little. Having undertaken  user needs
> >> analysis, as part of developing a BRT conceptual design in the
> >> Philippines, I have found a strong preference for at-grade crossings. I
> >> believe it is then the designers job to either ensure that the at-grade
> >> crossing is safe - adequate green times for predicted pedestrian volume,
> >> appropriate sight lines and signal design, or if the locality is such
> >> that safety cannot be assured, design an over bridge that does not
> >> require overt effort to use. The designers appraisal must take full
> >> consideration of the conditions within which the crossing is being
> >> placed.
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Colin Brader
> >> Director
> >> Integrated Transport Planning Ltd
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+brader=itpworld.net at list.jca.apc.org
> >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+brader<sustran-discuss-bounces%2Bbrader><sustran-discuss-bounces%2Bbrader>=
> >> itpworld.net at list.jca.apc.org] On
> >> Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo
> >> Sent: 15 March 2010 01:42
> >> To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport
> >> Subject: [sustran] Pedestrian overpasses
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> The issue of everyone preferring pedestrian overpasses instead of
> >> level-crossings is pretty much ubiquitous in developing countries in
> >> Asia and Latin America (I assume Africa, but I don't know this as a
> >> fact). But the most interesting part is that many "experts" and even
> >> pedestrians prefer those overpasses, and when asking for "safety" in a
> >> crossing they ask for an overpass instead of an adequate crossing! I've
> >> been shouted at in meetings where I deny the need to have a specific
> >> overpass and urge planners to design a crossing instead... they don't
> >> understand that overpasses should be the last recourse, that they are
> >> also much more expensive and provide a very negative message to many
> >> (you, pedestrian, must do extra effort to cross, while the car must just
> >>
> >> whizz by).
> >>
> >> This just shows how much we still have to work on these issues...
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Carlos.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 12/03/2010 01:25, jane. wrote:
> >>
> >>> Here there is no reason given. Like most things in China, they simply
> >>>
> >> just one day appear. Well, it was announced in the newspapers just
> >> before construction started, but as I recall, they were simply notices.
> >> But I suppose the justification would be something along the lines of
> >> "improving traffic."
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: Eric Britton<eric.britton at ecoplan.org>
> >>> To: Cornie Huizenga<cornie.huizenga at slocatpartnership.org>;
> >>>
> >> jane.<voodikon at yahoo.com>
> >>
> >>> Cc: Salil Bijur<salilb at gmail.com>; Global 'South' Sustainable
> >>>
> >> Transport<sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>;
> >> Kanchan<kittykanchan at gmail.com>; JasonChang<skchang at ntu.edu.tw>
> >>
> >>> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 11:04:11 PM
> >>> Subject: Pedestrian Budget
> >>>
> >>> Just to be sure I understand rightly the basics on this one.
> >>>
> >>> The idea, if one scratches, is to get the "other stuff" - i.e.,
> >>>
> >> walkers,
> >>
> >>> cyclists -- out of the way of motorized traffic so that drivers can
> >>>
> >> arrive
> >>
> >>> unencumbered and on time at their destinations? (No matter how the
> >>>
> >> concept
> >>
> >>> is otherwise billed.)
> >>>
> >>> Do I have that right?
> >>>
> >>> Kind thanks for informing,
> >>>
> >>> Best/Eric Britton
> >>>
> >>> PS. If anyone is up to it, this could be  an excellent truth-seeking
> >>>
> >> piece
> >>
> >>> for World Streets, with the necessary independent balanced coverage of
> >>> course. Candidates?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Note: New Paris tel. +331 7550 3788 . Kindly change your records.
> >>>
> >>> World Streets  .  www.worldstreets.org
> >>> 8/10, rue Jospeh Bara  .  Paris 75006 France
> >>> +331 7550 3788  .  eric.britton at newmobility.org  .  Skype newmobility
> >>> New Mobility Partnerships   . www.partners.newmobility.org
> >>> 9440 Readcrest Drive  .   Los Angeles, CA 90210
> >>> +1 213 984 1277 .  fekbritton at gmail.org .  Skype ericbritton
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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>
> --
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Todd Edelman
> Green Idea Factory
>
> Urbanstr. 45
> D-10967 Berlin
> Germany
>
> Skype: toddedelman
> Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081
>
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-- 

Walter Hook
Executive Director
Institute for Transportation and Development Policy
127 W 26 St, Ste 1002
New York, NY 10001
1-212-629-8001
www.itdp.org

Promoting sustainable and equitable transportation worldwide.