[sustran] Re: Why Free Public Transport is a BAD idea? - Comments

[bruun at seas.upenn.edu]

Dear discussants:

No wonder I keep reading this listserve. There is a lot of informed  
opinion out there.

I want to add two perspectives that haven't been covered so far:

1) There are lots of places in the US where the farebox only covers 10  
to 20 percent
of the operating cost and the effort to collect fares even adds a few  
percent to operating cost. At the same time, there is not really a  
peak demand problem causing overloading. (This would be a good problem  
these
operators would like to develop.) In this case, I think having zero  
fare is OK. It makes little difference to the subsidy required, it  
helps generate ridership and familiarity with public transport, it  
subsidizes those at the bottom of the income scale, and it helps the  
32 percent of the population that don't have driver's licenses. In the  
US this about 100 million people.

2) It isn't always true that driving is faster for trips under 12km.  
Especially when one must hunt for parking. I could drive to Center  
City Philadelphia from my house, but I might have to circle for 10  
minutes just to find parking. And if I want to save time, the odds are  
that I would pay $6 for one hour if I gave up hunting for on-street  
parking.  The streetcar takes me there in a few minutes longer but I  
have no worries once I get there. The trick is to make this true in  
ever-larger parts of the city. Due to total stagnation in PT  
development for decades, the size of this area hasn't been expanding  
in my city, or in most US cities. But in European cities where the  
median income is far higher than in Philadelphia like Munich, Helsinki  
or Stockholm that have seen ever-expanding systems and systems where  
service is reliable and frequent, there is a large part of the city  
where PT outperforms the car. Hence ridership per capita of PT exceeds  
400 per year.

Eric Bruun


Quoting Simon Bishop <simon.bishop at dimts.in>:

> Dear Sustran-Discuss
>
> Focusing on the impact of free public transport on public transport  
> use is missing the point, as unpopular politically to swallow as it  
> is.
>
> Measures to rein in car use, principally by raising its cost have a  
> disproportionate impact on encouraging greater transit use than  
> lowering the costs of public transport.  That's because using a  
> car/motorcycle (the case in nearly all countries/cities of the  
> world) is more convenient than using transit.
>
> In case the table figures from Mayer Hillman below seems  
> 'Londoncentric', Professor Mohan at IIT-Delhi has found that up to  
> distances of 12km (most urban journeys) the car is faster than both  
> Metro and BRT.  Given that time is now almost out to reduce  
> transport's contribution to climate change perhaps our emphasis  
> should shift accordingly?
>
> "It can be seen from the table below that car drivers' travel time  
> is far lower than bus or rail, from which it can again be observed  
> that it is wholly unrealistic to anticipate a future in which public  
> transport could compete in door-to-door speed with the car on  
> journeys up to 10 miles, accounting for 86 per cent of all journeys.  
> Moreover, when attention is turned to the influence of the costs of  
> travel, it is apparent that, unless the real and perceived costs of  
> car travel, for instance in relation to speed, parking and fuel  
> prices, are dramatically increased, holding down fares is likely to  
> have only a minor effect on this particular modal choice: a modeling  
> exercise has revealed that halving public transport fares would only  
> reduce car traffic by two per cent (Dasgupta et al., 1994), and if  
> public transport were free, car use would be reduced by no more than  
> 6 per cent (Norris, 1995)."
>
> Mayer Hillman (Senior Fellow Emeritus, Policy Studies Institute) in  
> Chapter 8 in The Greening of Urban Transport (ed. Rodney Tolley),  
> John Wiley and Sons, 1997.
>
>
> Table 4 Mean overall journey time, in minutes, by travel method and  
> length of journey, Great Britain
>
>         Distance band in miles
>
>
>         <1
>         1<2
>         2<5
>         5<10
>
>
> Walk
>         11
>         26
>         51
>         115
>
>
> Cycle
>         7
>         13
>         22
>         40
>
>
> London stage bus
>         19
>         23
>         36
>         54
>
>
> Other stage bus
>         14
>         18
>         26
>         39
>
>
> British Rail
>         31
>         30
>         32
>         44
>
>
> Car driver
>         5
>         7
>         12
>         20
>
> Source: special tabulation from National Travel Survey 1991/93
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+simon.bishop=dimts.in at list.jca.apc.org  
> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+simon.bishop=dimts.in at list.jca.apc.org] On  
> Behalf Of Roger Gorham
> Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 9:50 PM
> To: edelman at greenidea.eu
> Cc: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> Subject: [sustran] Re: Why Free Public Transport is a BAD idea? - Comments
>
> I agree with the sentiment expressed here by some that it depends heavily on
> the local context and the objective for which "free" public transport (that
> is, someone other than the user pays all the costs) is being proposed.  But
> for most of the usual-suspect-objectives that people have already cited --
> support a public good, bolster public transport's mode share, or reduce
> private car use -- removing from the user all burden of cost-sharing will
> generally prove to be ineffective.  In time-sensitive environments (e.g.
> developed-country cities), free public transport will generally slow the
> system down (artificial "congestion" from higher frequency of stops, more
> people boarding at stops) which would further incentivize private vehicle
> use. (Lloyd mentions a couple of exceptions, but these seem to be highly
> niched circumstances, with minuscule mode share, I would imagine.)  In
> developing country cities, the very immediate logistical problem is that
> "public" transport is provided by thousands of small operators -- there is
> no way to contemplate creating a "free' system under these circumstances
> without generating a myriad of other problems that would be too horrible to
> think about.  So the larger question is how to transform these systems into
> more manageable, sustainable, and organized public tranpsort delivery
> systems, which is what we are all grappling with.
>
> In short, "user-doensn't-pay" systems may be ok in a limited number of
> circumstances to meet specific objectives, but it should not be an abstract
> goal we should be striving for.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 9:07 AM, Todd Edelman <edelman at greenidea.eu> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Implementing fare-free use of collective or individual public transport
>> is quite context-specific. There are many current metro systems in the
>> U.S, Europe etc. which could not handle the extra burden without massive
>> investment and/or shift to home working, bicycles and so on.... but then
>> again many public bicycle systems are nearly fare-free as a way to
>> promote cycling, so why not the same for public transport systems which
>> are new or have the capacity? The 30min fare-free model for public bikes
>> can be inspiration for further fare-free travel using collective means,
>> but of course only in dense urban areas. (I am not advocating for fare
>> income to made up by advertising deals).
>>
>> Bottom line, public transport provision is a major part of any developed
>> or developing economy, and it seems unfair or silly to look for some/too
>> much fare income there whilst huge amounts of money are spent on areas
>> outside the mobility or urban livability sectors, such as on military
>> arms. Can we please make sure that the question to ask here is not
>> "Buses or bikepaths?" but "Buses or bombs?"
>>
>> - T
>>
>>  On 09/07/10 14:27, Carlosfelipe Pardo wrote:
>> > Maybe the problem is the either/or of free or full costs, and not
>> > thinking of options between the two and progress towards the second. I
>> > propose the following:
>> >
>> > - Charge road users as close as possible to the real costs of their
>> > car/motorcycle use and earmark it for public transport
>> > - Do your best to reduce as much as possible the price of public
>> > transport operation (or increase frequencies etc) by use of the funds
>> > collected via polluter pays in cars etc.
>> >
>> > Maybe at some point it will be possible to have zero cost for public
>> > transport use?
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> >
>> > Carlosfelipe Pardo
>> >
>> > On 09/07/2010 07:08 a.m., Lee Schipper wrote:
>> >
>> >> I disagree with Lloyd on the analogy. Public transport systems have very
>> high running costs/variable costs. While it is not free to maintain
>> cycleways or sidewalks, costs are small. And many of us DO advocate charging
>> for using roads!
>> >>
>> >> Lee Schipper, Ph.D
>> >> Project Scientist
>> >> Global Metropolitan Studies
>> >>
>> >> 2614 Dwight Way 2nd floor
>> >> University of California Berkeley
>> >> CA 94720-1782 USA
>> >>
>> >> TEL +1 510 642 6889
>> >> FAX +1 510 642 6061
>> >> CELL +1 202 262 7476
>> >> skype: mrmeter
>> >> http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/
>> >>
>> >> Senior Research Engineer
>> >> Precourt Energy Efficiency Center
>> >> Stanford University
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org[mailto:
>> sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper <sustran-discuss-bounces%2Bschipper>=
>> wri.org at list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Lloyd Wright
>> >> Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 3:48 AM
>> >> To: 'eric britton'; Sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
>> >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Why Free Public Transport is a BAD idea? -
>> Comments
>> >>
>> >> While I am somewhat neutral on this topic, I would note that many of the
>> arguments put forth would apply equally to sidewalks, cycle ways, public
>> parks, public toilets, etc.
>> >>
>> >> And yet, I doubt most of us would advocate charging a fee for use of
>> these (although there are cities that do charge for access to parks and
>> toilets).
>> >>
>> >> We don't generally advocate charging a fee for using the sidewalk
>> because it is viewed as a public good.  And hopefully we all support walking
>> as public policy (as well as cycling and public transport).
>> >>
>> >> I am struck by the fact that in many cities with free public transport,
>> the Armageddon suggested in some of the comments does not happen.  The
>> systems are well maintained and operated.  There are still pedestrians and
>> cyclists.
>> >> And they do not become too crowded because they are sized to meet the
>> demand, which should be a design principle regardless of the fare level.
>> >>
>> >> The free transport business model can also be sustainable.  For example,
>> Orlando (FL) has a very nice free inner city BRT service paid for by fees on
>> private vehicles (which has a nice bit of justice to it).  Miami has a truly
>> wonderful free People Mover.
>> >>
>> >> Obviously, the examples from Florida and Belgium are not representative
>> of what would happen in developing Asia.  But I am not sure that free public
>> transport is out of the question for these contexts.
>> >>
>> >> And hopefully, we can continue to use sidewalks, cycle ways, parks, and
>> toilets before the economists demand a strict application of user/polluter
>> pays.
>> >>
>> >> Best,
>> >>
>> >> Lloyd
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+lwright=vivacities.org at list.jca.apc.org
>> >>  
>> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+lwright<sustran-discuss-bounces%2Blwright>
>> =vivacities.org at list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of eric britton
>> >> Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 17:53
>> >> To: Sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
>> >> Subject: [sustran] Why Free Public Transport is a BAD idea? - Comments
>> >>
>> >> New comment on your post "Why Free Public Transport is a bad idea?"
>> >> Author : Anzir Boodoo (IP: 91.107.131.247 , 91.107.131.247) E-mail :
>> ab at transcience.co.uk
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Eric,
>> >>
>> >> I think you are forgetting a couple of other major reasons...
>> >>
>> >> 5. Free public transport creates modal shift from walking (and possibly
>> cycling). For example, the free city centre bus in Leeds (UK) has mostly
>> replaced trips on foot, not trips by taxi from the railway station (as
>> >> intended) or even short hop trips by bus. Free public transport can thus
>> be a loser on public health grounds (people should be walking and cycling
>> more), and CO2 emissions (which are higher by bus than on foot)
>> >>
>> >> 6. Free public transport may encourage people to travel more, since the
>> only cost is their time. This will also increase individuals' level of
>> emissions, not to mention pollution from diesel buses (as they will stop
>> more and we will need more of them)
>> >>
>> >> 7. Free public transport may encourage people to use their city centres
>> more than local suburban centres (I don't have any evidence for this!), or
>> large out of town hypermarkets instead of their local suburban centres or
>> local shops.
>> >>
>> >> 8. Free public transport is unfair on the "polluter pays principle". All
>> transport produces CO2 emissions, from breathing when you walk or cycle, to
>> the fuel use of motorised transport. Are we allowing people to burn fuel and
>> not pay for the damage this causes?
>> >>
>> >> 9. It's well known anecdotally (from observation, if not from studies)
>> that people value things they pay for, and not necessarily things they get
>> for free (see "the tragedy of the commons"). What about respect for drivers,
>> vehicles and infrastructure?
>> >>
>> >> Before you ask, I'm all for cheaper public transport, and believe we
>> should be subsudising it to an extent, but I don't think making it free is
>> the answer. I know the mayors and officials of towns like Hasselt in Belgium
>> (where buses are free) would disagree...
>> >>
>> >> You can see all comments on this post here:
>> >>
>> http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/2010/07/07/why-free-public-transport-is-a-
>> >> bad-idea/#comments
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Todd Edelman
>> Green Idea Factory,
>> a member of the OPENbike team
>>
>> Mobile: ++49(0)162 814 4081
>> Immobile: ++49(0)30 7554 0001
>>
>> edelman at greenidea.eu
>> www.greenidea.eu
>> todd at openbike.se
>> www.openbike.se
>>
>> Skype: toddedelman
>>
>> Urbanstr. 45
>> 10967 Berlin
>> Germany
>>
>> ***
>>
>> OPENbike - Share the Perfect Fit!
>>
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>>
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