[sustran] CO2 emissions concern stopping infrastructure projects?

[bruun at seas.upenn.edu]

Madhav, et.al.

I am quite familiar with the operating area for the Purple Line, It is  
now a moot point,
as the project is going ahead, but I have to say that the enhanced bus  
option simply doesn't
have the same impact on the existing metro network or the same  
benefits to users as
the LRT line will have. We have been waiting for years for local  
governments to allow
bus enhancements. (Yes, the line will probably end up with more  
tunneling and overhead
than it might have, but this is for the same reason that bus  
enhancements take forever. The
car is still king and the wealthy still can fight in courts for years.)

I think we are going in the wrong direction if we start obsessing over  
CO2 from transit investments.
The infrastructure will be there for 100 years. How ironic if this  
concern actually ends up favoring
auto users instead.) Let's concentrate on reducing car use and making  
cars more efficient. If we succeed in densifying along rail and BRT  
lines this will permanently reduce CO2. If things get built that
won't attract choice riders, driving might actually increase. This  
needs to be taken into account.

It is particularly wrong-headed, in my opinion, for developing  
countries to worry about CO2 from construction. Worry about the  
quality of life and the time spent commuting for the poor, the air  
quality, the land conservation because of denser cities, and other  
benefits. Let the richer countries
bear most of the brunt of CO2 reduction. We won't even notice if it is  
done right.

Eric Bruun


Quoting Madhav Pai <MPai at wri.org>:

> EMBARQ/WRI did life cycle CO2 emission analysis for the Purple line  
> in Washington DC. The link to the work is attached.
>
> http://www.wri.org/press/2009/01/enhanced-buses-best-option-dc-area-purple-line-wri-finds
>
> Madhav
>
> Madhav Pai
>
> Technical Director - India
>
> EMBARQ, The WRI Center for Sustainable Transport
> Godrel & Boyce Premises
>
> Gaswork Lane, Lalbaug,
>
> Parel, Mumbai 400012
>
>
>
> email: mpai at wri.org
>
> phone: +91 22 24713565
>
> fax: +91 22 24713591
>
> cell: +91 99875 48808
> website: embarq.wri.org
> blog: TheCityFix.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+mpai=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org  
> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+mpai=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org] On  
> Behalf Of bruun at seas.upenn.edu
> Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 2:34 AM
> To: Morten Lange
> Cc: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport
> Subject: [sustran] Re: Mumbai monorail project looks to reduce CO2  
> emissions???
>
>
> Hi all'
>
> There was a recent article by Horvath, et.al. at UC Berkeley that  
> tries to show the lifecycle consumption including manufacturing of  
> vehicles, of guideways, etc.
> The material is too new to have been critiqued in detail. The  
> results will no doubt be adjusted over time.
>
> As for arriving at useful numbers, I think that Kenworthy, Newman,  
> Laube, et.al's database about energy consumption and travel over  
> entire regions versus the land density, types of modes, etc. is  
> perhaps the helpful of all if one is trying to project a long view.  
> In the end, it is the entire regional results that count,not  
> particular lines or corridors. Unfortunately, UITP owns this  
> Millenium Database of over 50 cities and you must purchase it. Bits  
> and pieces are here and there in various articles.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Morten Lange <morten7an at yahoo.com>:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> This is an interesting discussion.  Do you have any pointers to
>> articles that detail how one can arrive at such numbers ?
>>
>> No less interesting and wrought with guestimates would be the number
>> brutto number referred to in the subject : "Mumbai monorail project
>> looks to reduce CO2 emissions"
>>
>> I guess one would guestimate how large a proportion of trips with the
>> monorail are replacing car, bus or scooter trips, and decide on a
>> probable share of different classes of fuel consumption, find a
>> weighted average and multiply ?
>>
>> But this would ignore systemic changes, like possibly cleaner air
>> leading to better health and thus less spent on healthcare or lost in
>> days from work. Removing that number of cars and buses from traffic
>> might open up possibilites for reallocating of roadspace
>> from cars to cyclists, pedestrians and buses, giving further wins.
>> Or could delay road expansion which would have meant further increases
>> in road traffic ( in cars ).
>> More transit users will increase mean a growth in the number of
>> pedestrians which in turn both improves health and improves safety for
>> pedestrians and cyclists. Which in turn can increase cycling and
>> walking still further.
>>
>> Is anyone on the list aware of good articles / books on systems
>> thinking (feedback loops, leverage points etc ) in the evaluation of
>> car v.s "alternative"  transport in cities ?
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Morten
>> --
>> Regards / Kveðja
>> Morten Lange, Reykjavík
>>
>>
>> --- On Fri, 29/1/10, Carlosfelipe Pardo <carlosfpardo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Carlosfelipe Pardo <carlosfpardo at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [sustran] Re: Mumbai monorail project looks to reduce CO2
>>> emissions ???
>>> To: "Sudhir" <sudhir at cai-asia.org>
>>> Cc: "Global 'South' Sustainable Transport"
>>> <sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
>>> Date: Friday, 29 January, 2010, 0:41
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I've heard this as well from the energy
>>> expenditure side with some
>>> huge numbers. The argument I know is that some systems have
>>> very high
>>> net energy expenditures during construction which are too
>>> high compared
>>> to the actual emission reductions during operation (as you
>>> also note).
>>> But I've actually read it in rail vs roads discussions
>>> which was a bit
>>> frightening... not sure what to think since numbers for
>>> mass transit
>>> systems are so often misleading and operating companies
>>> never give you
>>> the actual numbers on many issues (for instance, when you
>>> ask about
>>> subsidies, many operating companies state that they
>>> don't have
>>> subsidies when they are 100% aware of them...).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Carlos.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sudhir wrote:
>>>
>>>   Hi Carlos,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Its around 3500 tons/km/year which is average. Important
>>> thing is as
>>> shown by Mikhail chester - is construction in? it can be
>>> 3-28 years of
>>> operation emissions ( depends on how you measure it)..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   regards
>>>   Sudhir
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   On 29 January 2010 08:16,
>>> Carlosfelipe Pardo
>>>   <carlosfpardo at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>   I
>>> don't get it: 200 tons of CO2 reduction per day with
>>> 300 thousand
>>>
>>> commuters? In what timespan? For background, Delhi metro
>>> estimated 90
>>>
>>> thousand tons reduction between 2004- 2007 ( X pax per
>>> day?) , and
>>>
>>> TransMilenio in Bogotá got 70 thousand tons
>>> reduction for 2008 with 1.6
>>>
>>> million pax per day. Do the numbers come out right for this
>>> Mumbai
>>>
>>> monorail? I'm not good with numbers but somehow the
>>> ones for Mumbai seem
>>>
>>> a bit high... anyone?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Carlos.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - 2008, 70,000 tons
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Eric Britton wrote:
>>>
>>> > Mumbai monorail project looks to reduce CO2 emissions
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > By Lisa Sibley
>>>
>>> > Published 2010-01-27 09:22
>>>
>>> > Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia-based Scomi Group, a global
>>> service
>>> provider mainly
>>>
>>> > in the oil and gas industry, said today its trial run
>>> of India's
>>> first
>>>
>>> > monorail car for a project in Mumbai has been a
>>> success.
>>>
>>> > The Malaysia-listed company also specializes in urban
>>> transit
>>> systems, with
>>>
>>> > an emphasis on India, China, the Gulf states, and
>>> Brazil. The
>>> trial run
>>>
>>> > occurred yesterday, also a national holiday, the
>>> Republic Day of
>>> India.
>>>
>>> > The monorail is expected to prevent 200 tons of carbon
>>> dioxide
>>> emissions
>>>
>>> > daily. The proposed structure is also considered
>>> environmentally
>>> friendly
>>>
>>> > because it won't obstruct sunlight or trap
>>> excessive emissions. In
>>> addition,
>>>
>>> > it's expected to be quieter than other modes of
>>> transportation.
>>>
>>> > Scomi India's Country President Suhaimi Yaacob
>>> said in a news
>>> release the
>>>
>>> > project's focus is on sustainable mobility,
>>> reduced urban
>>> congestion,
>>>
>>> > improved reliability, and comfortable travel.
>>>
>>> > Other cities looking to reduce mass transport
>>> emissions include
>>> China's
>>>
>>> > Lanzhou, which is working on a comprehensive urban
>>> development
>>> plan linking
>>>
>>> > a new city center with a rapid bus transport system,
>>> expected to
>>> result in a
>>>
>>> > cleaner, more economical mass transportation system
>>> (see China's
>>> Lanzhou
>>>
>>> > makes plans to reduce mass transport emissions
>>>
>>> > <http://cleantech.com/news/5429/lanzhou-mass-transport-system>
>>>  [1]).
>>>
>>> > Scomi's engineering division and partner Larsen
>>> & Toubro,
>>> India's largest
>>>
>>> > engineering and construction conglomerate, secured
>>> $545 million
>>> for the
>>>
>>> > Mumbai Monorail Project in November 2008, and are
>>> expected to
>>> complete the
>>>
>>> > project by 2011.
>>>
>>> > Scomi is tasked with delivering 60 cars, making up 15
>>> sets of
>>> four-car
>>>
>>> > trains. Each four-coach monorail is expected to be
>>> able to
>>> accommodate about
>>>
>>> > 600 passengers, carrying a total of nearly 300,000
>>> daily commuters.
>>>
>>> > The monorail project is expected to have a
>>> 20-kilometer (12.4
>>> mile) proposed
>>>
>>> > route between Jacob Circle and Chembur, a suburban
>>> neighborhood in
>>> eastern
>>>
>>> > Mumbai, with one central depot and about 18
>>> user-friendly
>>> stations. Chembur
>>>
>>> > is located about 22 kilometers from downtown Mumbai
>>> and considered
>>> a transit
>>>
>>> > point for travelers to Pune.
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > Source URL:
>>>
>>> > http://cleantech.com/news/5567/mumbai-monorail-project-looks-reduc
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
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>>> ================================================================
>>>
>>> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Sudhir Gota
>>>
>>> Transport Specialist
>>>
>>> CAI-Asia Center
>>>
>>> Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower,
>>>
>>> ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>> Skype : sudhirgota
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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