[sustran] Re: Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 70, Issue 12
Simon Bishop
simon.bishop at dimts.in
Mon Jun 15 19:39:54 JST 2009
Hi Carlos Sudhir and others,
If you have a look at page 37, table 5 of the Mayor's Air Quality Strategy for London it gives you the emissions of different pollutants from cars, buses, taxis and coaches. This gives per passenger kilometer figures and for SO2 and PM10 they don't look good.
On the emissions of CO2, I remember reading one of the Mayor's reports and being very shocked to find that actual energy consumption of buses was only a little better than half that of cars. As I understand it, to have a decent bus network one needs to run it out of peak periods when loading factors fall and fuel consumption per passenger rises. For this reason the bus network in London requires financial subsidies of 1 billion pounds a year to keep running. It is an excellent network and we pay for it with $ and energy.
Now in cities like Delhi you don't yet have a public transport network that many with a choice of private, motorized transport would opt to use, so the figures that we quote on fuel efficiency NOW are not those that will exist with an improved network. Why? To get motorcyclists and car users to switch in future, or at least stay on the bus, even WITH very strong demand management measures and low fares, we'll need to increase frequency, add A/C in some cases, bring down the 'crush factor' and widen geographical scope, all of which will inevitably result in more energy consumed per passenger. It's hard to disagree with this line of thinking without adopting one standard of public transport comfort for 'the West' and one for the developing world.
That's why I think land use controls, the bicycle and rickshaw have key (but not exclusive) roles to play in tackling climate change in the urban transport sector.
Simon
From: Carlosfelipe Pardo [mailto:carlosfpardo at gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 1:42 PM
To: Simon Bishop
Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 70, Issue 12
Simon, is your data assuming emissions and expenditure per vehicle or per passenger? I'd be thankful if you can clarify. Thanks!
Carlos.
Simon Bishop wrote:
Like Carlos I am skeptical of this announcement. From where I'm sitting in Delhi there is a tendency to see 'public transport', and by that I mean motorized and electrified, through rose tinted glasses as if it is 'the' solution to growing automobile use. A huge amount of emphasis is put on the Metro and now BRT as ways to solve congestion (never mind about all the other externalities). Bicycles and legs are ignored despite holding a huge modal share.
I think it was the Indian economist Dasgupta who showed that you could make public transport free in the UK and still only effect a very small shift to it from the car (6%). The fact is that cars are damn convenient and people will use them unless they are literally prized away from doing so. The vast majority of people use public transport in London and NY because they have to, and parking control is the main mechanism. I hope that Beijing's approach will witness parking restraint and pricing as a lynchpin of its policy, otherwise it will be a funding drain and a white elephant.
The rose tinted spectacles also ignore the role of cycling as better and faster than the bus over short to medium distances. Why swap a more convenient form of transport for a less convenient one? The only thing that can compete with the car over these distances is the bicycle (and motorcycle, which should also be deterred for safety reasons).
In terms of our greatest challenge, global warming I am perturbed. Where you have quality bus systems (with good timetables in the off peak and feeder services) they consume amounts of per capita energy rivaling that of the car. Quoting London again, the average actual CO2 emissions of a bus is 40% that of a car, PM10 emissions are 3 times and SO2 emissions 25 times greater - that's not much of an improvement. In Taipei, taking account of door to door emissions, the Metro actually consumes more energy than a car! This should not be construed as an argument AGAINST public transport, particularly buses, after all the more of us that use them the better, and there will always be a need for those who cannot cycle or walk, but it IS an argument for Beijing to prioritize Travel Demand Management/Walking/Cycling/Land Use Planning as the key policy to follow.
-----Original Message-----
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Subject: Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 70, Issue 12
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Beijing to build "public transport city" (Carlosfelipe Pardo)
2. Re: Beijing to build "public transport city" + Charter of
Brussels (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory)
3. Re: Beijing to build "public transport city" (Sudhir)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 13:15:28 +0100
From: Carlosfelipe Pardo <carlosfpardo at gmail.com><mailto:carlosfpardo at gmail.com>
Subject: [sustran] Re: Beijing to build "public transport city"
To: Sudhir <sudhir at cai-asia.org><mailto:sudhir at cai-asia.org>
Cc: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport
<sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org><mailto:sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
Message-ID: <4A339860.8050202 at gmail.com><mailto:4A339860.8050202 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi,
An interesting question is if they in Beijing expect the future public
transport users to come from cars or bicycles... this is seldom answered
(or asked) in any of these schemes and remains a problem. In many places
I've asked that question and they normally say that future bicycle users
will come from public transport, or the opposite. And when they say that
bicycle or public transport users will come from cars, they have no idea
how this will be achieved.
Beijing used to have an extremely high mode share of bicycle use some
years ago, and it has now fallen to pieces due to the "promotion" of
cars. So is promoting public transport good or bad in this scenario? I
mean, will they end up with no one riding bicycles and the rest in cars
or buses? Not sure if it's the win-win situation.
Carlos.
Sudhir wrote:
/Beijing has set a target, how about other cities??/
see http://www.beijingdaily.com.cn/beijingnews/200906/t20090612_524515.htm
Beijing will transform into a "public transport city" by 2015. In peak
hours, the minimum departure interval for subway trains will be
shortened to 2 minutes; the waiting time at bus stops will be reduced
to 3 to 5 minutes; public transport will account for 45 percent of the
journeys in downtown areas. "Beijing's implementation plan on
humanistic, technological and green transport" (from 2009 to 2015) was
recently reviewed and approved by the Standing Committee of CPC
Beijing Municipal Committee, unveiling the "public transport city".
Beijing will transform into a "public transport city" by 2015.
Public transport will account for 45 percent of the journeys in
downtown areas
According to the plan, from 2009 to 2015, Beijing will construct a new
transport system meeting the capital city's needs for development, by
implementing four major projects including rail transit network project.
By then, the public transport will become remarkably more attractive.
Public transport will account for 45 percent of the journeys in
downtown areas, while over 50 percent of the journeys will be via
public transport during the commuting period. Rail transit will
undertake around 50 percent of total passenger traffic of public
transport, and the average daily passenger flow by rail transit and
bus combined will be over 25 million; building a transport circle of
"1-1-2" hours means that the average commuting time within the
downtown area will be no more than 1 hour, the travel time from the
furthest new towns to the Fifth Ring Road will be no more than 1 hour,
and the travel time from Beijing to major cities in the Bohai Bay Rim
economic region will be less than 2 hours. The total amount of major
pollutants emitted by vehicles will be lower than that in 2008. Read
More @
http://www.beijingdaily.com.cn/beijingnews/200906/t20090612_524515.htm
--
Sudhir Gota
Transport Specialist
CAI-Asia Center
Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower,
ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City
Metro Manila, Philippines 1605
Tel: +63-2-395-2843
Fax: +63-2-395-2846
http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia
Skype : sudhirgota
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:09:26 +0200
From: "Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory" <edelman at greenidea.eu><mailto:edelman at greenidea.eu>
Subject: [sustran] Re: Beijing to build "public transport city" +
Charter of Brussels
To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport
<sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org><mailto:sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
Message-ID: <4A33C126.3040105 at greenidea.eu><mailto:4A33C126.3040105 at greenidea.eu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
re:
<http://www.beijingdaily.com.cn/beijingnews/200906/t20090612_524515.htm><http://www.beijingdaily.com.cn/beijingnews/200906/t20090612_524515.htm>
YES, thanks, Carlos... that story could have said instead "Beijing aims
for no more than 50% automobile modal share!" -- with little cycling or
even walking mentioned its a half-empty cup.
This cycling or PT modal share thing is too simplistic, its not keeping
up with development, nor language... to refer to the theme of a sister
List, I think it's an Old Mobility way of talking about transport..
Many cities in Europe have a very high modal share of public transport
(Around 40% in Prague) or cycling (About 30 to 35% in Amsterdam and
Copenhagen) but which cities have BOTH at those levels... and thus a
very low private automobile modal share? And how about in some
developing cities outside of Europe, where a lot of people can afford a car?
And now the flip side...
With a Europe-based mobility consultant I was discussing the "Charter of
Brussels" launched at the recent Velo-City
<http://www.velo-city2009.com/charter-brussels.html><http://www.velo-city2009.com/charter-brussels.html> +
<http://www.velo-city2009.com/assets/files/VC09-charter-of-brussels.pdf><http://www.velo-city2009.com/assets/files/VC09-charter-of-brussels.pdf>
which has one of its main features a commitment for cities which sign it
to set a goal of a 15% modal share of cycling (or higher if that share
is already achieved) by 2020.
The Charter makes no mention of where these cyclists will come from and
in fact at best only mentions public transport as one of several "other
stakeholders".
In a city with development policies, a commercial real estate industry
and consumer behaviour which creates large - though still not
peripheral - shopping centres at the expense of highly distributed
small stores, an increase of cycling could simply come at the decrease
of walking. No achievement at all unless you are trying to sell bikes or
get people used to moving faster. Sure, this is an extreme case.
The consultant suggested to me - something I would call Newer Mobility
if not quite a totally un-Old Mobility way of thinking - that better
would be to set a decreasing automobile modal share as the main goal.
This would tend to create a joint project of walking, cycling, public
transport AND dense urban planning actors - and together they could try
to agree on goals for an increasing, composite, non-private automobile
modal share which everyone would be happy with. Which cities or regions
are already doing this?
Regards,
Todd Edelman,
Green Idea Factory,
Ex-Prussia and Occupied Mexico
Carlosfelipe Pardo wrote:
Hi,
An interesting question is if they in Beijing expect the future public
transport users to come from cars or bicycles... this is seldom answered
(or asked) in any of these schemes and remains a problem. In many places
I've asked that question and they normally say that future bicycle users
will come from public transport, or the opposite. And when they say that
bicycle or public transport users will come from cars, they have no idea
how this will be achieved.
Beijing used to have an extremely high mode share of bicycle use some
years ago, and it has now fallen to pieces due to the "promotion" of
cars. So is promoting public transport good or bad in this scenario? I
mean, will they end up with no one riding bicycles and the rest in cars
or buses? Not sure if it's the win-win situation.
Carlos.
Sudhir wrote:
/Beijing has set a target, how about other cities??/
see http://www.beijingdaily.com.cn/beijingnews/200906/t20090612_524515.htm
Beijing will transform into a "public transport city" by 2015. In peak
hours, the minimum departure interval for subway trains will be
shortened to 2 minutes; the waiting time at bus stops will be reduced
to 3 to 5 minutes; public transport will account for 45 percent of the
journeys in downtown areas. "Beijing's implementation plan on
humanistic, technological and green transport" (from 2009 to 2015) was
recently reviewed and approved by the Standing Committee of CPC
Beijing Municipal Committee, unveiling the "public transport city".
Beijing will transform into a "public transport city" by 2015.
Public transport will account for 45 percent of the journeys in
downtown areas
According to the plan, from 2009 to 2015, Beijing will construct a new
transport system meeting the capital city's needs for development, by
implementing four major projects including rail transit network project.
By then, the public transport will become remarkably more attractive.
Public transport will account for 45 percent of the journeys in
downtown areas, while over 50 percent of the journeys will be via
public transport during the commuting period. Rail transit will
undertake around 50 percent of total passenger traffic of public
transport, and the average daily passenger flow by rail transit and
bus combined will be over 25 million; building a transport circle of
"1-1-2" hours means that the average commuting time within the
downtown area will be no more than 1 hour, the travel time from the
furthest new towns to the Fifth Ring Road will be no more than 1 hour,
and the travel time from Beijing to major cities in the Bohai Bay Rim
economic region will be less than 2 hours. The total amount of major
pollutants emitted by vehicles will be lower than that in 2008. Read
More @
http://www.beijingdaily.com.cn/beijingnews/200906/t20090612_524515.htm
--
Sudhir Gota
Transport Specialist
CAI-Asia Center
Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower,
ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City
Metro Manila, Philippines 1605
Tel: +63-2-395-2843
Fax: +63-2-395-2846
http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia
Skype : sudhirgota
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
--------------------------------------------------------
If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
================================================================
SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South').
--------------------------------------------------------
To search the archives of sustran-discuss visit
http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
--------------------------------------------------------
If you get sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
================================================================
SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South').
--
--------------------------------------------
Todd Edelman
Green Idea Factory
Urbanstr. 45
D-10967 Berlin
Germany
Skype: toddedelman
Mobile: ++49 0162 814 4081
Home/Office: ++49 030 7554 0001
edelman at greenidea.eu<mailto:edelman at greenidea.eu>
www.greenidea.eu<http://www.greenidea.eu>
www.facebook.com/toddedelman<http://www.facebook.com/toddedelman>
www.flickr.com/photos/edelman<http://www.flickr.com/photos/edelman>
CAR is over. If you want it.
"Fort mit der Autostadt und was Neues hingebaut!"
- B. Brecht (with slight modification)
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 10:44:24 +0800
From: Sudhir <sudhir at cai-asia.org><mailto:sudhir at cai-asia.org>
Subject: [sustran] Re: Beijing to build "public transport city"
To: Carlosfelipe Pardo <carlosfpardo at gmail.com><mailto:carlosfpardo at gmail.com>
Cc: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport
<sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org><mailto:sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
Message-ID:
<ef31aa130906131944k7f26142fwbc4e37174e57f317 at mail.gmail.com><mailto:ef31aa130906131944k7f26142fwbc4e37174e57f317 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Carlos and others,
Good news is instead of one more ring road at least the investment and
priority is on public transport.
Now, if they keep up the funding on public transport with good investment on
non motorized transport and provide incentives, i think its a very good
move......
The question is how much of private transport share is bearable? i would be
happy with 20-25% of private mode share in Asian cities with proportionate
investment in 2020.
In short if they can freeze the current mode share of private automobiles
(20% in 2004) :-)
best regards
Sudhir
2009/6/13 Carlosfelipe Pardo <carlosfpardo at gmail.com><mailto:carlosfpardo at gmail.com>
Hi,
An interesting question is if they in Beijing expect the future public
transport users to come from cars or bicycles... this is seldom answered (or
asked) in any of these schemes and remains a problem. In many places I've
asked that question and they normally say that future bicycle users will
come from public transport, or the opposite. And when they say that bicycle
or public transport users will come from cars, they have no idea how this
will be achieved.
Beijing used to have an extremely high mode share of bicycle use some years
ago, and it has now fallen to pieces due to the "promotion" of cars. So is
promoting public transport good or bad in this scenario? I mean, will they
end up with no one riding bicycles and the rest in cars or buses? Not sure
if it's the win-win situation.
Carlos.
Sudhir wrote:
/Beijing has set a target, how about other cities??/
see
http://www.beijingdaily.com.cn/beijingnews/200906/t20090612_524515.htm
Beijing will transform into a "public transport city" by 2015. In peak
hours, the minimum departure interval for subway trains will be shortened to
2 minutes; the waiting time at bus stops will be reduced to 3 to 5 minutes;
public transport will account for 45 percent of the journeys in downtown
areas. "Beijing's implementation plan on humanistic, technological and green
transport" (from 2009 to 2015) was recently reviewed and approved by the
Standing Committee of CPC Beijing Municipal Committee, unveiling the "public
transport city".
Beijing will transform into a "public transport city" by 2015.
Public transport will account for 45 percent of the journeys in downtown
areas
According to the plan, from 2009 to 2015, Beijing will construct a new
transport system meeting the capital city's needs for development, by
implementing four major projects including rail transit network project.
By then, the public transport will become remarkably more attractive.
Public transport will account for 45 percent of the journeys in downtown
areas, while over 50 percent of the journeys will be via public transport
during the commuting period. Rail transit will undertake around 50 percent
of total passenger traffic of public transport, and the average daily
passenger flow by rail transit and bus combined will be over 25 million;
building a transport circle of "1-1-2" hours means that the average
commuting time within the downtown area will be no more than 1 hour, the
travel time from the furthest new towns to the Fifth Ring Road will be no
more than 1 hour, and the travel time from Beijing to major cities in the
Bohai Bay Rim economic region will be less than 2 hours. The total amount of
major pollutants emitted by vehicles will be lower than that in 2008. Read
More @
http://www.beijingdaily.com.cn/beijingnews/200906/t20090612_524515.htm
--
Sudhir Gota
Transport Specialist
CAI-Asia Center
Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower,
ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City
Metro Manila, Philippines 1605
Tel: +63-2-395-2843
Fax: +63-2-395-2846
http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia
Skype : sudhirgota
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------- To search the
archives of sustran-discuss visit
http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014715651517519735401:ijjtzwbu_ss
-------------------------------------------------------- If you get
sustran-discuss via YAHOOGROUPS, please go to
http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real
sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
================================================================
SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
(the 'Global South').
--
Sudhir Gota
Transport Specialist
CAI-Asia Center
Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower,
ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City
Metro Manila, Philippines 1605
Tel: +63-2-395-2843
Fax: +63-2-395-2846
http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia
Skype : sudhirgota
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