[sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime

[Anumita]

Lee,

I guess all of us are saying the same thing. Clearly, this fuss over Nano is just not 
about Nano but about cars, all cars – big, small, cheap, expensive cars. Nano has 
given us the chance to focus the public debate on congestion, oil guzzling and 
emissions and make these concerns more visible. This debate is certainly very 
nuanced.  

-- Look at the Indian paradox today – super cheap cars like Nano will expand the 
bottom of the market pyramid when rising incomes have already triggered a steady 
drift to bigger cars and SUVs. So the ends are stretched both ways. Car companies 
will continue to compete on costs in a price sensitive market. With frugal engineering, 
weak regulations, fiscal largess to the car companies, even for their production 
facilities, cars can come very cheap. Question is how do we deal with it?

-- Interestingly, in a car to car comparison nano or any small car can offer fuel 
savings – certainly more sensible than the bigger, more powerful, high performance 
cars that are about several hundreds per 1000 people in many industrialized cities. 
But the new investments in the Indian auto sector will have to be linked with stringent 
emissions regulations, in-use compliance requirements and efficiency standards. 

– But the reason why we are debating Nano, and, are so concerned today, is 
because we still have the time, the chance and the alternatives to plan mobility 
systems differently in Indian cities. We already have a reasonable strength in the 
usage of public transport at least in big cities, NMT and walking -- that if protected 
and improved can help us to take an alternative route and avoid huge emissions and 
oil guzzling in Indian cities. Building alternatives at this stage of motorisation is critical 
-- cars may drive growth and aspirations, but they can never meet the commuting 
needs of the urban majority. 

-- But this is where we draw a blank. As in the rest of the world we have also realized 
that to a very great extent mobility management hinges on fiscal measures (in 
addition to providing good public transport).  But the wisdom of taxing a product for 
the vice and not just for their values is still quite alien to the Indian and many other 
Asian fiscal regimes. The governments are strongly entrenched in command and 
control strategies. They are still not looking at fiscal measures that can change 
consumer and commuter choices, push cities to make better choices on 
transportation options, create alternative sources of revenue and broaden the 
revenue base to fund mobility and technology transition. But this will require a 
different kind of maturity and sophistication in our fiscal regimen. 

-- Greening of taxes will be an even bigger battle in the present context of 
governance and public awareness. Aspirational vote bank never says tax our cars 
and the governance systems in cities are not strong enough to force it down. 
Therefore, just the opposite is happening today. The city governments penalize buses 
by taxing them higher per passenger they carry than cars that carry lot less and use 
up more road space etc. 

-- In Delhi, we are amidst discussions on fuel taxes, parking charges, road taxes etc. 
But resistance is unbelievable. Even if matters move in Delhi it will still be a drop in 
the ocean. The policy mandate on transportation and mobility matters is so 
decentralized that it is the ability of all individual cities that will ultimately decide the 
progress on this front. National policies like JNURM etc are still not strong enough 
framework to create a template for the cities. Smaller cities are going to be even 
more badly hit by small car explosion as public policies on public transport are 
virtually non existent for these cities – just because these cities do not have high 
density travel corridors to justify investment in ‘profitable’ public transport.  This 
means millions are left to organise their own mobility and will happily graduate from 
bicycles and cycle rickshaws to cheap cars. 

-- We need to understand that when it comes to practical planning for mobility 
management in our cities the basic policy tools, databases, policy indicators of 
sustainability etc do not even exist to enable city level planning and action. Even 
public voice remains dormant. This is where we need to move fast to see some real 
action. Otherwise, good ideas will remain good ideas while cars take over. 

Anumita


On 24 Jan 2008 at 10:40, Lee Schipper wrote:

> Anumita, what do you say? Sounds like we're between a piece of rubber
> and a spare tyre 
> 
> 
> Lee Schipper
> EMBARQ Fellow
> EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport
> www.embarq.wri.org
> and
> Visiting Scholar
> UC Transportation Center
> Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net
> skype: mrmeter
> +1 510 642 6889
> Cell +1 202 262 7476
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Walter Hook [mailto:whook at itdp.org] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:23 AM
> To: Lee Schipper; 'Gina Anderson'
> Cc: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom; anumita at cseindia.org
> Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano:
> CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime
> 
> So what are you proposing?  Banning them?  If there are safety and
> tailpile grounds to single out this vehicle, ok, then the case should be
> articulated in that way.  
> 
> But I think this is hyperbole.  You can already get dirt cheap
> motorbikes, you can already use dirt cheap three wheelers, dirt cheap
> used Ambassadors which probably cost roughly the same and are probably
> as good value for money, traffic is already chaos in some places.  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lee Schipper [mailto:schipper at wri.org]
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:13 AM
> To: Walter Hook; Gina Anderson
> Cc: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom; anumita at cseindia.org
> Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano:
> CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime
> 
> I think Walter the problem is timing. If a cheap car races in and
> mesmerizes everyone BEFORE a truly sustainable collective system with
> good and well protected NMT is there, all is lost...If the entrance of
> the car is slowed down, and really mean much slower, I fear chaos will
> reign on streets. One doesn't have to ban it but one has to be sure one
> is charging for its reall costs imposed on local and global citizens. 
> 
> 
> Lee Schipper
> EMBARQ Fellow
> EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and
> Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net
> skype: mrmeter
> +1 510 642 6889
> Cell +1 202 262 7476
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Walter Hook [mailto:whook at itdp.org]
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:05 AM
> To: 'Gina Anderson'; Lee Schipper
> Cc: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom
> Subject: RE: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano:
> CriminalizingMobility orMobilizing Crime
> 
> Gina,
> 
> Nice to hear from you!  Of course there is going to be a major problem,
> but there will be a problem whatever the price of the car, it will just
> manifest itself sooner with lower car prices.  Mumbai was proposing
> banning the car.
> Well, if they proposed banning it for some safety or tailpipe emission
> reason, ok, but it is absurd to ban it because the cost is low.  This
> is, however, the tendency in Asia, to simply ban vehicle categories.
> They also banned non motorized three wheelers, diesel buses, etc.  In
> Guangzhou they just banned motorcycles.  Some good results of this, and
> some bad ones.  In my view, banning vehicles due to low cost is a bad
> idea and sets an absurd regulatory precedent.  There is a general
> problem in India of using such blanket bans to make up for the general
> inability of government to regulate in a more sophisticated way.  I am
> hoping that over time pressure from motorization might lead to the use
> of more sophisticated regulatory tools, like parking regulation, proper
> tailpipe regulation, road worthiness testing, etc. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org
> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org] On
> Behalf Of Gina Anderson
> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:40 PM
> To: Lee Schipper
> Cc: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org; Rhys Thom
> Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobility
> orMobilizing Crime
> 
> Thanks for setting some things out clearly Lee.
> 
> Walter, your remarks seem a bit disingenuous.  While theoretically there
> is no "problem" with an inexpensive car, I'm guessing you'd say there is
> a problem with government's ability/willingness to price  
> parking/fuel/road use? to optimize efficient and equitable transport.   
> But, the situation in most cities worldwide including Indian cities is
> that conventional mechanisms and pricing related to transport are in
> place.  Introducing a cheap vehicle in such circumstances will clearly
> lead to worse levels of congestion in urban areas.  I'm sure you know
> the term "super crush loading", which is a technical term that had to be
> coined to describe the level of service (LOS) on Indian commuter trains
> at peak times when passengers were hanging onto the outside of cars for
> their commute; certainly I made use of it when you were my thesis
> advisor 10 years or so back.  Wouldn't a similar type of term need to be
> used to describe the LOS on  roads in developing countries where
> motorization is expanding rapidly?
> 
> Using the "theory of second best", meaning that the ideal solution is
> too difficult to reach (assuring sustainable transport by having "use"  
> pricing that adequately promotes efficient modes, assuring all people
> can have their mobility needs met), the second best solution would have
> to be concerned with a very low cost car.  It will skew the economics of
> transport decision-making and will cause worse mass congestion - and
> then truly only those with higher incomes will be able to get around.
> 
> Gina Agarwal Anderson
> 
> --
> Regina Anderson, AICP
> WholeChoice Master Planning, Pedestrian Design, Sustainability Singapore
> phone +65 6467-6594
> 
> 
> Quoting Lee Schipper <schipper at wri.org>:
> 
> > Setty makes a fair point, but that's just the dilemma facing transport
> 
> > everywhere. The time-space geographer Waerneryd used the problem in
> the
> > early 1970s -- only a car will connect all the tasks for those
> parents.
> >
> > The problem is that Waerneryd worked in Sweden, where even in the
> 1970s
> > the kinds of congestion  Bangalore and other Indian cities have NOW
> was
> > unknown (and is still pretty mild). So an additional driver in Sweden 
> > could pretty much count on connecting more dots with a car than with 
> > collective transport.
> >
> > Steven Tyler studied Knivsta, a town n. of Stockholm on the main 
> > railroad line and road to Uppsala. He wondered why so many people
> drove
> > to work? There were two answer -- one, tax policy permitted deduction 
> > for commuting expenses, and a car could be deducted if it saved 1/2 
> > hour, and two, far more jobs were accessible by car than by mass
> transit
> > within a given amount of driving time.  In the early 1970s Sweden had 
> > the highest car ownership in Europe -- but it lost that lead to
> Germany,
> > Italy, and now even other countries. One reason may be the good mass 
> > transit, i.e., that the number of people who really save money and
> time
> > driving to work maxed out. Local authorities are trying to do that all
> 
> > over Scandinavia to reduce driving. Who is doing that in India, China,
> 
> > or the US today?
> >
> > Sweden also pioneered green taxes. If you bought a "standard" car in
> the
> > 1990s you paid somewhat higher purchase taxes than if you bought one 
> > that satisfied California's more demanding pollution norms. This eased
> 
> > in a rapid transition away from leaded fuel (which cost more than 
> > unleaded from the mid 1980s) and from "high" sulfur diesel (high 
> > compared to the present <15 ppm in Sweden today, but well below Indian
> 
> > levels!).
> >
> > Now let's consider an Indian city. The roads are already choked - some
> 
> > will save time as above if they now drive to where they have to go.
> But
> > how much time (and pollution) will everyone else suffer? Is the
> balance
> > the same as in Sweden (or if you will, the US, where the AVERAGE
> commute
> > is still under 25 minutes, albeit with a clear tail)? Stockholm
> recently
> > opted for a congesting charging scheme to try to ration  better the 
> > available space on the limited number of bridges and other ways into 
> > town. Could or should Indian cities do the same? Should they start NOW
> 
> > before decisions about car ownership and housing are made, or after,
> as
> > Stockholm did? Congestion charging may not be the ideal mechanism for 
> > India, but it has helped  achieve a better balance on crowded roads in
> 
> > Stockholm, London, and for many years Singapore
> >
> > So Setty, the question is not whether the family you describe is right
> 
> > or wrong, rather, what policy package would put them in a position to 
> > consider ALL costs not just their own gains in time? And what
> mechanisms
> > are appropriate for ALL cities to achieve a better balance between 
> > individual and collective traffic? It seems to me that if motorizing 
> > cities act first to strengthen collective transport, strengthen and 
> > enforce emissions and fuel norms, and establish a clear tradition that
> 
> > everyone pays for the costs he/she imposes on others (congestion,
> noise,
> > air pollution etc)
> >
> > I wish I knew the answer. Unfortunately even the so called leader of
> the
> > Free Market, the US, can't seem to wrap its mind around the Swedish 
> > approach. Which one will India choose?
> >
> > Lee Schipper
> > EMBARQ Fellow
> > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org 
> > and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA 
> > www.uctc.net
> > skype: mrmeter
> > +1 510 642 6889
> > Cell +1 202 262 7476
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org
> > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org] On 
> > Behalf Of Pendakur
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:16 AM
> > To: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> > Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility
> 
> > orMobilizing Crime
> >
> > It would be good if all the people who have sent in discussions on the
> 
> > "smart Tata car", to place themselves in the position of a person, say
> 
> > in Bangalore (india), who has two children and a spouse, all going to 
> > different destinations.  Even though the bus system is ok in
> Banaglore,
> > compared to other cities in India, it would take this family a great 
> > deal of time and money to reach their destinations,.  In addition, all
> 
> > four destinations (2 schools and 2 work places) are farther apart.
> This
> > smart car is a boon to this family.  It will cut their travel time in 
> > half and provide a safer vehicle than the motor cycle they use now.
> >
> > Eloquence is good (criminalizing mobility) but empty eloquence from a 
> > distance is rarely of any significance.
> >
> > Cheers.
> >
> > Setty
> > Dr. V. Setty Pendakur
> > Professor Emeritus, University of BC
> > Honorary Professor, China National Academy of Sciences; Director, ITDP
> > (NY) & Secretary, ABE90-TRB
> >
> > President, Pacific Policy and Planning Associates
> > 702- 1099 Marinaside Cresecent, Vancouver, BC Canada V6Z 2Z3 
> > 604-263-3576; Fax: 604-263-6493
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> > sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca at list.jca.apc.org
> >
> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca at list.jca.apc
> > .org
> > ] On Behalf Of Walter Hook
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:45 AM
> > To: edelman at greenidea.eu
> > Cc: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing
> 
> > Crime
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > People in developing countries still face significant mobility 
> > constraints, and for them low cost vehicles are a boon. A motorbike, a
> 
> > motorized three wheeler, a car, these things may be an economic
> lifeline
> > to a relatively poor family.
> >
> > Ownership without use poses relatively minor social problems, so what
> is
> > the problem with a cheap car?  The social problems are primarily 
> > associated with use, so it is primarily the cost of the use of
> vehicles
> > that needs to be increased to reflect the true social cost, not the 
> > ownership of the vehicle.
> >
> > The optimal cost of the car is the cost it takes to make a car someone
> 
> > wants safely that meets all the regulatory requirements.  With China
> and
> > India becoming big producers and mechanization proceeding apace, the 
> > price of motor vehicles in real terms is likely to fall over time.
> All
> > manufactured goods fall in price.  Falling consumer prices are in 
> > general a sign of progress.  Less of society's labor required to
> produce
> > the vehicle, leaves money to spend on something else.
> >
> > However, what is never going to fall in price is the value of downtown
> 
> > real estate, including the value of road space in desirable locations.
> > There is only one Greenwich Village in Manhattan, and on streets with 
> > extremely expensive real estate parking is absolutely free.  Of course
> 
> > the result is that there is virtually no parking available, and most
> of
> > this valuable real estate ends up being used as a car storage facility
> 
> > for local residents and shop owners.  This is completely crazy, and 
> > people are slowly waking up to this madness.
> >
> > What is also unlikely to fall in price is oil.  Hence, over time the
> use
> > of vehicles is going to increase in price, and the cost of ownership 
> > decrease in relative terms.
> >
> > It is not impossible to imagine that at some point cars, like cell 
> > phones, will be practically given away for free in order to sell much 
> > more expensive services related to them, like parking, oil, whatever.
> > With Zip Car, you don't need to own the vehicle at all, you are mainly
> 
> > paying for the garaging and gasoline and vehicle maintenance.  The 
> > replacement cost of the vehicle is relatively minor.  One can imagine 
> > that you could pay so much for a parking slot in a garage that the 
> > garage eventually will throw in the use of the car for free.
> >
> > It seems to me an exercise in futility and risks sounding elitist to 
> > complain about the low cost of vehicles when the social problem lies 
> > elsewhere.
> >
> > w
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org
> > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org] On 
> > Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:33 PM
> > Cc: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> > Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing
> 
> > Crime
> >
> > Hi Walter,
> >
> > Walter Hook wrote:
> >> I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't 
> >> think
> > that
> >> the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem.
> > OK
> >>   If the vehicle
> >> is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe 
> >> emission standards, those are serious social problems.
> > YES
> >>   Other than this, it is great
> >> if the cost of vehicles goes down.
> > WHY?
> >>   However, it will create pressure on the governments to charge
> prices
> >
> >> that more accurately reflect the full social cost of the use of the 
> >> vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road user charges.
> > COULD you explain this, please?
> >
> >>  Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive ones.
> 
> >> I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it
> > wasn't
> >> picked up.
> >>
> > THANKS,
> > T
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org
> >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org] On
> > Behalf
> >> Of Lee Schipper
> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM
> >> To: bruun at seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or
> Mobilizing
> > Crime
> >>
> >>  WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show,
> 
> >> today which you Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems 
> >> as I know where there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita 
> >> Roychowdry of CSE and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and 
> >> there were call
> ins
> >> as well.
> >>
> >> lee
> >>
> >>
> >> Lee Schipper
> >> EMBARQ Fellow
> >> EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org 
> >> and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA 
> >> www.uctc.net
> >> skype: mrmeter
> >> +1 510 642 6889
> >> Cell +1 202 262 7476
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org
> >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org] On
> 
> >> Behalf Of bruun at seas.upenn.edu
> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM
> >> To: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> >> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or
> Mobilizing
> >> Crime
> >>
> >> Hassaan
> >>
> >> The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is 
> >> going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and 
> >> livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about
> 
> >> fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution.
> >>
> >> One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to 
> >> pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists
> > themselves
> >> in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to 
> >> them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a
> > very
> >> lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of
> > their
> >> users as well, and bring the ratio up.
> >>
> >> This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people
> 
> >> haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well
> > known,
> >> is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars.
> >> Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within 
> >> many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause 
> >> many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5
> 
> >> percent auto ownership.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right
> > that
> >> the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's
> > government
> >> works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will
> be
> >> working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as 
> >> possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other 
> >> people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be
> 
> >> class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars.
> >>
> >> Eric Bruun
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Quoting Hassaan Ghazali <hghazali at gmail.com>:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Friends,
> >>>
> >>> There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line 
> >>> every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting 
> >>> and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's 
> >>> mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to
> 
> >>> see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I
> 
> >>> don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's
> Smart
> >
> >>> car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably
> 
> >>> one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and 
> >>> Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the 
> >>> developed and developing world create the context to despise such an
> >>>
> >> incredible product?
> >>
> >>> Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the 
> >>> masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole 
> >>> suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies,
> regulatory
> >
> >>> oversight,
> >>> etc.) are also provided.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Hassaan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Institutional Development Specialist Urban Sector Policy and 
> >>> Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning & Development Department, 
> >>> Government of the Punjab
> >>>
> >>> A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan
> >>> T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116)
> >>> F: 9213585
> >>> M: 0345 455 6016
> >>> Skype: halgazel
> >>> http://hghazali.googlepages.com
> >>>
> >>> *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong*
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------
> >>> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via
> >>>
> >> YAHOOGROUPS.
> >>
> >>> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss
> >>>  to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.
> >>> The  yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot
> 
> >>> post  to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site
> makes
> >
> >>> it  seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
> >>>
> >>> ================================================================
> >>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> >
> >>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing 
> >>> countries (the 'Global South').
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via 
> >> YAHOOGROUPS.
> >>
> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss
> > to
> >> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The 
> >> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post
> > to
> >> the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem 
> >> like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
> >>
> >> ================================================================
> >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, 
> >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> > countries
> >> (the 'Global South').
> >> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via 
> >> YAHOOGROUPS.
> >>
> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss
> > to
> > join
> >> the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The
> > yahoogroups
> >> version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real 
> >> sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you
> > can).
> >> Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
> >>
> >> ================================================================
> >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, 
> >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> > countries
> >> (the 'Global South').
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via
> > YAHOOGROUPS.
> >>
> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss
> > to
> > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The 
> > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post
> to
> > the
> > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like 
> > you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
> >>
> >> ================================================================
> >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> countries
> > (the 'Global South').
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > --------------------------------------------
> >
> > Todd Edelman
> > Director
> > Green Idea Factory
> >
> > Korunni 72
> > CZ-10100 Praha 10
> > Czech Republic
> >
> > Skype: toddedelman
> > ++420 605 915 970
> > ++420 222 517 832
> >
> > edelman at greenidea.eu
> > http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/
> > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman
> >
> > Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network 
> > www.worldcarfree.net
> >
> > CAR is over. If you WANT it.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via 
> > YAHOOGROUPS.
> >
> > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss
> to
> > join
> > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The
> yahoogroups
> > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real 
> > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you 
> > can).
> > Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
> >
> > ================================================================
> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, 
> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> countries
> > (the 'Global South').
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via 
> > YAHOOGROUPS.
> >
> > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss
> to
> > join
> > the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The
> yahoogroups
> > version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real 
> > sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you 
> > can).
> > Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
> >
> > ================================================================
> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, 
> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> countries
> > (the 'Global South').
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via 
> > YAHOOGROUPS.
> >
> > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss
> to
> > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The 
> > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post
> to
> > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem 
> > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
> >
> > ================================================================
> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, 
> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> countries
> > (the 'Global South').
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via
> YAHOOGROUPS.
> >
> > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss
> >  to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights.  
> > The  yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot 
> > post  to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes 
> > it  seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
> >
> > ================================================================
> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,   
> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing   
> > countries (the 'Global South').
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via
> YAHOOGROUPS. 
> 
> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to
> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The
> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to
> the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem
> like you can).
> Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
> 
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> (the 'Global South'). 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

********************************************************
Anumita Roychowdhury
Associate Director,Research and Advocacy
Centre for Science and Environment
41, Tughlakabad Institutional Area
New Delhi 110062
Tel: 91-11-29955124, 29955125, 29956394
Fax: 91-11-29955879, 29955870
Email: anumita at cseindia.org
Website: www.cseindia.org
***************************************************