[sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing MobilityorMobilizing Crime

[Lee Schipper]

Another point well made. When I was in Hanoi in 2004 with a broken foot and the hotel drove me to a hospital in a van, we had trouble, not with the motorbikes, but teh cars parked on the narrow streets that almost blocked them. Its bad enough wht the sidewalks blocked by parked two wheelers.
 
Where are all the Nano's going to park?
 
Lee Schipper
EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport
www.embarq.wri.org
>From Oct 1, Visiting Scholar, 
UC Transportation Center
UC Berkeley, CA 
www.uctc.net
510 642 6889
202 262 7476

________________________________

From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Ranjith de Silva
Sent: Wed 1/23/2008 7:29 PM
To: 'Pendakur'; sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing MobilityorMobilizing Crime



Hi all,

I was wondering what would happen when the road space used by two wheelers
(motorcycles) when they are replaced by a bigger vehicle like a small car
(as the latter comes within the purchasing power of the normal two-wheel
user). Can you imagine this situation in a country like Vietnam? There will
also be more demand for fuel than at present and naturally the cost will fly
high making it difficult for the low income groups to use their vehicles
having invested their hard earned money.

Thanks.

Ranjith

Ranjith de Silva
Regional Coordinator for Asia
International Forum for Rural Transport and Development (IFRTD)
C/o. 310/10 Ramanayaka Mawatha
Erawwala
Pannipitiya 10230
Sri Lanka

Phone: +94 11 2842972 / 5018180

Email: ranjith at ifrtd.org 


Web: www.ifrtd.org / www.ruralwaterways.org / www.mobilityandhealth.org



The IFRTD is a global network of individuals and organisations working
together towards improved access, mobility and economic opportunity for poor
communities in developing countries.


-----Original Message-----
From: sustran-discuss-bounces+ranjithsd=sltnet.lk at list.jca.apc.org
[mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+ranjithsd=sltnet.lk at list.jca.apc.org] On
Behalf Of Pendakur
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:46 PM
To: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility
orMobilizing Crime

It would be good if all the people who have sent in discussions on the
"smart Tata car", to place themselves in the position of a person, say in
Bangalore (india), who has two children and a spouse, all going to different
destinations.  Even though the bus system is ok in Banaglore, compared to
other cities in India, it would take this family a great deal of time and
money to reach their destinations,.  In addition, all four destinations (2
schools and 2 work places) are farther apart.  This smart car is a boon to
this family.  It will cut their travel time in half and provide a safer
vehicle than the motor cycle they use now.

Eloquence is good (criminalizing mobility) but empty eloquence from a
distance is rarely of any significance.

Cheers.

Setty
Dr. V. Setty Pendakur
Professor Emeritus, University of BC
Honorary Professor, China National Academy of Sciences;
Director, ITDP (NY) & Secretary, ABE90-TRB

President, Pacific Policy and Planning Associates
702- 1099 Marinaside Cresecent, Vancouver, BC
Canada V6Z 2Z3
604-263-3576; Fax: 604-263-6493


-----Original Message-----
From: sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca at list.jca.apc.org
[mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca at list.jca.apc.org
] On Behalf Of Walter Hook
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:45 AM
To: edelman at greenidea.eu
Cc: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime

Todd

People in developing countries still face significant mobility constraints,
and for them low cost vehicles are a boon. A motorbike, a motorized three
wheeler, a car, these things may be an economic lifeline to a relatively
poor family. 

Ownership without use poses relatively minor social problems, so what is the
problem with a cheap car?  The social problems are primarily associated with
use, so it is primarily the cost of the use of vehicles that needs to be
increased to reflect the true social cost, not the ownership of the vehicle.

The optimal cost of the car is the cost it takes to make a car someone wants
safely that meets all the regulatory requirements.  With China and India
becoming big producers and mechanization proceeding apace, the price of
motor vehicles in real terms is likely to fall over time.  All manufactured
goods fall in price.  Falling consumer prices are in general a sign of
progress.  Less of society's labor required to produce the vehicle, leaves
money to spend on something else.

However, what is never going to fall in price is the value of downtown real
estate, including the value of road space in desirable locations.  There is
only one Greenwich Village in Manhattan, and on streets with extremely
expensive real estate parking is absolutely free.  Of course the result is
that there is virtually no parking available, and most of this valuable real
estate ends up being used as a car storage facility for local residents and
shop owners.  This is completely crazy, and people are slowly waking up to
this madness.

What is also unlikely to fall in price is oil.  Hence, over time the use of
vehicles is going to increase in price, and the cost of ownership decrease
in relative terms. 

It is not impossible to imagine that at some point cars, like cell phones,
will be practically given away for free in order to sell much more expensive
services related to them, like parking, oil, whatever.  With Zip Car, you
don't need to own the vehicle at all, you are mainly paying for the garaging
and gasoline and vehicle maintenance.  The replacement cost of the vehicle
is relatively minor.  One can imagine that you could pay so much for a
parking slot in a garage that the garage eventually will throw in the use of
the car for free. 

It seems to me an exercise in futility and risks sounding elitist to
complain about the low cost of vehicles when the social problem lies
elsewhere.

w
-----Original Message-----
From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org
[mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf
Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:33 PM
Cc: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing Crime

Hi Walter,

Walter Hook wrote:
> I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't think
that
> the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem.
OK
>   If the vehicle
> is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe emission
> standards, those are serious social problems.
YES
>   Other than this, it is great
> if the cost of vehicles goes down.
WHY?
>   However, it will create pressure on the
> governments to charge prices that more accurately reflect the full social
> cost of the use of the vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road
> user charges.
COULD you explain this, please?

>  Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive
> ones.  I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it wasn't
> picked up.
>  
THANKS,
T



> -----Original Message-----
> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org
> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf
> Of Lee Schipper
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM
> To: bruun at seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing
Crime
>
>  WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show,
> today which you
> Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems as I know where
> there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita Roychowdry of CSE
> and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and there were call ins
> as well.
>
> lee
>
>
> Lee Schipper
> EMBARQ Fellow
> EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport
> www.embarq.wri.org
> and
> Visiting Scholar
> UC Transportation Center
> Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net
> skype: mrmeter
> +1 510 642 6889
> Cell +1 202 262 7476
> 
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org
> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org] On
> Behalf Of bruun at seas.upenn.edu
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM
> To: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing
> Crime
>
> Hassaan
>
> The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is
> going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and
> livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about
> fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution.
>
> One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to
> pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists themselves
> in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to
> them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a very
> lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of their
> users as well, and bring the ratio up.
>
> This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people
> haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well known,
> is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars.
> Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within
> many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause
> many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5
> percent auto ownership.
>
> On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right that
> the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's government
> works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be
> working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as
> possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other
> people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be
> class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars.
>
> Eric Bruun
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Hassaan Ghazali <hghazali at gmail.com>:
>
>  
>> Friends,
>>
>> There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line
>> every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting
>> and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's
>> mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to
>> see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I
>> don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart
>> car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably
>> one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and
>> Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the
>> developed and developing world create the context to despise such an
>>    
> incredible product?
>  
>> Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the
>> masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole
>> suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory
>> oversight,
>> etc.) are also provided.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Hassaan
>>
>>
>> --
>> Institutional Development Specialist
>> Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning &
>> Development Department, Government of the Punjab
>>
>> A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan
>> T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116)
>> F: 9213585
>> M: 0345 455 6016
>> Skype: halgazel
>> http://hghazali.googlepages.com <http://hghazali.googlepages.com/> 
>>
>> *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong*
>> --------------------------------------------------------
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--
--------------------------------------------

Todd Edelman
Director
Green Idea Factory

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