[sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility orMobilizing Crime

[Gina Anderson]

Thanks for setting some things out clearly Lee.

Walter, your remarks seem a bit disingenuous.  While theoretically  
there is no "problem" with an inexpensive car, I'm guessing you'd say  
there is a problem with government's ability/willingness to price  
parking/fuel/road use? to optimize efficient and equitable transport.   
But, the situation in most cities worldwide including Indian cities is  
that conventional mechanisms and pricing related to transport are in  
place.  Introducing a cheap vehicle in such circumstances will clearly  
lead to worse levels of congestion in urban areas.  I'm sure you know  
the term "super crush loading", which is a technical term that had to  
be coined to describe the level of service (LOS) on Indian commuter  
trains at peak times when passengers were hanging onto the outside of  
cars for their commute; certainly I made use of it when you were my  
thesis advisor 10 years or so back.  Wouldn't a similar type of term  
need to be used to describe the LOS on  roads in developing countries  
where motorization is expanding rapidly?

Using the "theory of second best", meaning that the ideal solution is  
too difficult to reach (assuring sustainable transport by having "use"  
pricing that adequately promotes efficient modes, assuring all people  
can have their mobility needs met), the second best solution would  
have to be concerned with a very low cost car.  It will skew the  
economics of transport decision-making and will cause worse mass  
congestion - and then truly only those with higher incomes will be  
able to get around.

Gina Agarwal Anderson

-- 
Regina Anderson, AICP
WholeChoice Master Planning, Pedestrian Design, Sustainability
Singapore
phone +65 6467-6594


Quoting Lee Schipper <schipper at wri.org>:

> Setty makes a fair point, but that's just the dilemma facing transport
> everywhere. The time-space geographer Waerneryd used the problem in the
> early 1970s -- only a car will connect all the tasks for those parents.
>
> The problem is that Waerneryd worked in Sweden, where even in the 1970s
> the kinds of congestion  Bangalore and other Indian cities have NOW was
> unknown (and is still pretty mild). So an additional driver in Sweden
> could pretty much count on connecting more dots with a car than with
> collective transport.
>
> Steven Tyler studied Knivsta, a town n. of Stockholm on the main
> railroad line and road to Uppsala. He wondered why so many people drove
> to work? There were two answer -- one, tax policy permitted deduction
> for commuting expenses, and a car could be deducted if it saved 1/2
> hour, and two, far more jobs were accessible by car than by mass transit
> within a given amount of driving time.  In the early 1970s Sweden had
> the highest car ownership in Europe -- but it lost that lead to Germany,
> Italy, and now even other countries. One reason may be the good mass
> transit, i.e., that the number of people who really save money and time
> driving to work maxed out. Local authorities are trying to do that all
> over Scandinavia to reduce driving. Who is doing that in India, China,
> or the US today?
>
> Sweden also pioneered green taxes. If you bought a "standard" car in the
> 1990s you paid somewhat higher purchase taxes than if you bought one
> that satisfied California's more demanding pollution norms. This eased
> in a rapid transition away from leaded fuel (which cost more than
> unleaded from the mid 1980s) and from "high" sulfur diesel (high
> compared to the present <15 ppm in Sweden today, but well below Indian
> levels!).
>
> Now let's consider an Indian city. The roads are already choked - some
> will save time as above if they now drive to where they have to go. But
> how much time (and pollution) will everyone else suffer? Is the balance
> the same as in Sweden (or if you will, the US, where the AVERAGE commute
> is still under 25 minutes, albeit with a clear tail)? Stockholm recently
> opted for a congesting charging scheme to try to ration  better the
> available space on the limited number of bridges and other ways into
> town. Could or should Indian cities do the same? Should they start NOW
> before decisions about car ownership and housing are made, or after, as
> Stockholm did? Congestion charging may not be the ideal mechanism for
> India, but it has helped  achieve a better balance on crowded roads in
> Stockholm, London, and for many years Singapore
>
> So Setty, the question is not whether the family you describe is right
> or wrong, rather, what policy package would put them in a position to
> consider ALL costs not just their own gains in time? And what mechanisms
> are appropriate for ALL cities to achieve a better balance between
> individual and collective traffic? It seems to me that if motorizing
> cities act first to strengthen collective transport, strengthen and
> enforce emissions and fuel norms, and establish a clear tradition that
> everyone pays for the costs he/she imposes on others (congestion, noise,
> air pollution etc)
>
> I wish I knew the answer. Unfortunately even the so called leader of the
> Free Market, the US, can't seem to wrap its mind around the Swedish
> approach. Which one will India choose?
>
> Lee Schipper
> EMBARQ Fellow
> EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport
> www.embarq.wri.org
> and
> Visiting Scholar
> UC Transportation Center
> Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net
> skype: mrmeter
> +1 510 642 6889
> Cell +1 202 262 7476
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org
> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org] On
> Behalf Of Pendakur
> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:16 AM
> To: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility
> orMobilizing Crime
>
> It would be good if all the people who have sent in discussions on the
> "smart Tata car", to place themselves in the position of a person, say
> in Bangalore (india), who has two children and a spouse, all going to
> different destinations.  Even though the bus system is ok in Banaglore,
> compared to other cities in India, it would take this family a great
> deal of time and money to reach their destinations,.  In addition, all
> four destinations (2 schools and 2 work places) are farther apart.  This
> smart car is a boon to this family.  It will cut their travel time in
> half and provide a safer vehicle than the motor cycle they use now.
>
> Eloquence is good (criminalizing mobility) but empty eloquence from a
> distance is rarely of any significance.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Setty
> Dr. V. Setty Pendakur
> Professor Emeritus, University of BC
> Honorary Professor, China National Academy of Sciences; Director, ITDP
> (NY) & Secretary, ABE90-TRB
>
> President, Pacific Policy and Planning Associates
> 702- 1099 Marinaside Cresecent, Vancouver, BC Canada V6Z 2Z3
> 604-263-3576; Fax: 604-263-6493
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca at list.jca.apc.org
> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+pendakur=interchange.ubc.ca at list.jca.apc
> .org
> ] On Behalf Of Walter Hook
> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:45 AM
> To: edelman at greenidea.eu
> Cc: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing
> Crime
>
> Todd
>
> People in developing countries still face significant mobility
> constraints, and for them low cost vehicles are a boon. A motorbike, a
> motorized three wheeler, a car, these things may be an economic lifeline
> to a relatively poor family.
>
> Ownership without use poses relatively minor social problems, so what is
> the problem with a cheap car?  The social problems are primarily
> associated with use, so it is primarily the cost of the use of vehicles
> that needs to be increased to reflect the true social cost, not the
> ownership of the vehicle.
>
> The optimal cost of the car is the cost it takes to make a car someone
> wants safely that meets all the regulatory requirements.  With China and
> India becoming big producers and mechanization proceeding apace, the
> price of motor vehicles in real terms is likely to fall over time.  All
> manufactured goods fall in price.  Falling consumer prices are in
> general a sign of progress.  Less of society's labor required to produce
> the vehicle, leaves money to spend on something else.
>
> However, what is never going to fall in price is the value of downtown
> real estate, including the value of road space in desirable locations.
> There is only one Greenwich Village in Manhattan, and on streets with
> extremely expensive real estate parking is absolutely free.  Of course
> the result is that there is virtually no parking available, and most of
> this valuable real estate ends up being used as a car storage facility
> for local residents and shop owners.  This is completely crazy, and
> people are slowly waking up to this madness.
>
> What is also unlikely to fall in price is oil.  Hence, over time the use
> of vehicles is going to increase in price, and the cost of ownership
> decrease in relative terms.
>
> It is not impossible to imagine that at some point cars, like cell
> phones, will be practically given away for free in order to sell much
> more expensive services related to them, like parking, oil, whatever.
> With Zip Car, you don't need to own the vehicle at all, you are mainly
> paying for the garaging and gasoline and vehicle maintenance.  The
> replacement cost of the vehicle is relatively minor.  One can imagine
> that you could pay so much for a parking slot in a garage that the
> garage eventually will throw in the use of the car for free.
>
> It seems to me an exercise in futility and risks sounding elitist to
> complain about the low cost of vehicles when the social problem lies
> elsewhere.
>
> w
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org
> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org] On
> Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:33 PM
> Cc: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing
> Crime
>
> Hi Walter,
>
> Walter Hook wrote:
>> I was interviewed by a few reporters on this, and I said I didn't
>> think
> that
>> the low cost of the vehicle was in and of itself a problem.
> OK
>>   If the vehicle
>> is not fully road worthy, crash worthy, or up to minimum tailpipe
>> emission standards, those are serious social problems.
> YES
>>   Other than this, it is great
>> if the cost of vehicles goes down.
> WHY?
>>   However, it will create pressure on the governments to charge prices
>
>> that more accurately reflect the full social cost of the use of the
>> vehicle, through coherent parking charges and road user charges.
> COULD you explain this, please?
>
>>  Cheap cars do not generate any more congestion than expensive
>> ones.  I suppose this was not what they wanted to hear, so maybe it
> wasn't
>> picked up.
>>
> THANKS,
> T
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org
>> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org] On
> Behalf
>> Of Lee Schipper
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:21 PM
>> To: bruun at seas.upenn.edu; sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
>> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing
> Crime
>>
>>  WE had a discussion of these issues on "On Point" , a US radio show,
>> today which you
>> Can hear at wbur.org. Email me if you have problems as I know where
>> there is an mp3 of the 50 minute broadcast. Anumita Roychowdry of CSE
>> and a Professor from MIT were also on the show and there were call ins
>> as well.
>>
>> lee
>>
>>
>> Lee Schipper
>> EMBARQ Fellow
>> EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport
>> www.embarq.wri.org
>> and
>> Visiting Scholar
>> UC Transportation Center
>> Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net
>> skype: mrmeter
>> +1 510 642 6889
>> Cell +1 202 262 7476
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org
>> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org] On
>> Behalf Of bruun at seas.upenn.edu
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:17 PM
>> To: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
>> Subject: [sustran] Re: Tata Nano: Criminalizing Mobility or Mobilizing
>> Crime
>>
>> Hassaan
>>
>> The reason people are alarmed is because they can see where this is
>> going -- in the wrong direction against sustainable development and
>> livable cities. But mostly the discussion in the press has been about
>> fuel consumption, greenhouse gasses, and air pollution.
>>
>> One thing that has been under-reported is the consequences to
>> pedestrians and biyclists. Far more are killed than motorists
> themselves
>> in India. An increase in cars will increase the death and maiming to
>> them far more than to motorists. But being piles of junk built to a
> very
>> lax safety standard, these TATAs will no doubt be killing a lot of
> their
>> users as well, and bring the ratio up.
>>
>> This negative impact will only be temporary. One of the things people
>> haven't talked about in the press at all, as this is not as well
> known,
>> is the sheer physical impossibility of accommodating so many cars.
>> Within a short period of time, all the parking and road space within
>> many cities will be used up and traffic will move to slowly to cause
>> many serious accidents. Look at Chinese cities already, with only 2.5
>> percent auto ownership.
>>
>> On the other hand, how can this be stopped? You are certainly right
> that
>> the regulatory oversight is not yet in place. But if India's
> government
>> works even remotely like the US government, the auto interests will be
>> working behind the scenes to slow this oversight down as much as
>> possible. If the rich are allowed to drive around, why can't other
>> people? Until some restraints are put on cars in general, it would be
>> class warfare to only ban these small cheap cars.
>>
>> Eric Bruun
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting Hassaan Ghazali <hghazali at gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>>> Friends,
>>>
>>> There was a time when a Model T rolled off the Ford assembly line
>>> every few seconds. I do believe that was probably the most exciting
>>> and the most positive time for the US economy. Now, it seems Tata's
>>> mobility breakthrough has everyone on the edge and I am surprised to
>>> see so many negative sentiments being expressed within South Asia. I
>>> don't remember so many issues abounding when Daimler-Chrysler's Smart
>
>>> car came out. Regardless of the fact that the Smart car was probably
>>> one major reason for the eventual divorce between Daimler and
>>> Chrysler, how does the economic and social disparity between the
>>> developed and developing world create the context to despise such an
>>>
>> incredible product?
>>
>>> Shall we all begin by shunning technology which aims to empower the
>>> masses or shall we encourage its uptake and ensure that the whole
>>> suite of technological constructs (institutions, policies, regulatory
>
>>> oversight,
>>> etc.) are also provided.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Hassaan
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Institutional Development Specialist
>>> Urban Sector Policy and Management Unit (The Urban Unit) Planning &
>>> Development Department, Government of the Punjab
>>>
>>> A: 4-B Lytton Road, Lahore, Pakistan
>>> T: 9213579-84 (Ext.116)
>>> F: 9213585
>>> M: 0345 455 6016
>>> Skype: halgazel
>>> http://hghazali.googlepages.com
>>>
>>> *When conditions are right, everything will go wrong*
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> --
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Todd Edelman
> Director
> Green Idea Factory
>
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