[sustran] Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ...

[Sujit Patwardhan]

Madhav,
Thanks but they still don't work (for me at least).
--
Sujit




On Feb 17, 2008 11:07 PM, Madhav Badami, Prof. <madhav.g.badami at mcgill.ca>
wrote:

> Hello all, again,
>
> Our friend Sujit Patwardhan from Pune pointed out that the links that I
> provided to the Pioneer articles don't work ... please try the ones below
> (the links I provided earlier worked a week or so ago!).
>
>
> http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607
>
>
> http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707
>
> A minor correction to the sentence "The items in these newspapers not only
> criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for
> Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh
> Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed
> and conceptualized it." in the first paragraph of my posting; it should
> read: "The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation
> of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of
> BRT. Besides, the Pioneer pieces personally attacked Dinesh Mohan of IIT
> Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and
> conceptualized it."
>
> Cheers,
>
> Madhav
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca at list.jca.apc.orgon behalf of Madhav Badami, Prof.
> Sent: Sun 2/17/2008 10:57 AM
> To: Sustran Resource Centre
> Cc: NewMobilityCafe at yahoogroups.com; shovan1209 at yahoo.com;
> gerardn at rhd.gov.bd
> Subject: [sustran] Sustainable transport and the media in India ...
>
> Greetings all,
>
> I thank Yasmin Chowdhury for her "Pricing public transit:  learning from
> Bangkok", and Saiful Alam (and Eric Britton) for posting it. Yasmin's piece,
> and Lee's response to it, reminded me of the attack that some newspapers in
> Delhi (chiefly The Pioneer and the Times of India) launched over several
> days on the High Capacity Bus System (HCBS), the BRT system being currently
> implemented there. The items in these newspapers not only criticized the
> implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the
> very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi,
> who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it.
>
> Two of the items, titled "Experts Order Serial Rape of Delhi Roads:
> Mindless HCBS plan derails traffic, destroys greenery, leaves city gasping"
> and "Will somebody wake up to stop this HCBS madness?", both of which
> appeared as "investigation" pieces in The Pioneer on November 6 and 7, may
> be accessed at:
>
>
> http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607
>
>
> http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707
>
> The Times of India, a leading English language national daily effectively
> made the same claims as in the above items, in several pieces, including one
> titled "Buses Hog Space, Cars Squeezed Out" on November 16.
>
> Feeling compelled to respond to these items (whose titles betray their
> general tone and content), I wrote an article in which I attempted to rebut
> them point by point, and sent it off to The Hindu, another leading English
> language national daily. My article was not published as it was originally
> written, because it was felt by the editor to be "polemical", and too long.
> But he did publish (on December 5) a considerably condensed version in which
> I removed specific references to the pieces in the Times of India and the
> Pioneer.
>
> In the end, I was thankful for his decision, because, although it denied
> me the opportunity to directly confront various specific claims made in the
> pieces (such as, for example, that the decision to implement BRT was sold by
> a cabal of experts to decision makers who accepted it in a hurry - actually,
> it was approved after having been debated and scrutinized at length in
> various official committees since the mid-1990s), it resulted in what I
> believe is a more carefully argued and tightly focused article, which may be
> accessed at:
>
> http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/05/stories/2007120553611000.htm
>
> Apart from arguing that BRT systems have the potential, when properly
> designed and implemented, to be low cost mass transit solutions that are
> appropriate for rapidly motorizing, low-income country cities, I placed the
> issue of BRT (and more generally, mass transit) in a larger context, by
> making the case that policies to appropriately price and curb personal motor
> vehicle use, and provide accessibility for pedestrians and cyclists, are
> important for enhancing the effectiveness of mass transit, allowing all
> modes (including cars and other personal motor vehicles) to operate more
> efficiently, mitigating rapidly worsening urban transport impacts, and
> promoting social justice on our roads.
>
> My purpose is not only to share my article (to which I welcome your
> critical comments) but also to demonstrate what we are up against in
> confronting the elite interests represented and served by the mainstream
> media (with their pro-car, highway, flyovers, and metro, and
> anti-pedestrian, NMT and bus transit prejudices), and arguing for more
> environmentally sustainable and socially equitable alternatives. It is
> little wonder that the Tata Nano has been largely applauded in the same
> media as the greatest thing since sliced bread (or, if you wish, masala
> dosa) - including, as I recall, for the rural masses of this country, who
> ostensibly have no unmet needs other than a 1-1.5 lakh rupee car.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Madhav
>
> ************************************************************************
>
> "As for the future, your task is not to foresee, but to enable it."
> Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
> Madhav G. Badami, PhD
> School of Urban Planning and McGill School of Environment
> McGill University
> Macdonald-Harrington Building
> 815 Sherbrooke Street West
> Montreal, QC, H3A 2K6, Canada
>
> Phone: 514-398-3183 (Work); 514-486-2370 (Home)
> Fax: 514-398-8376; 514-398-1643
> URLs: www.mcgill.ca/urbanplanning
> www.mcgill.ca/mse
> e-mail: madhav.badami at mcgill.ca
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca at list.jca.apc.orgon behalf of Carlosfelipe Pardo
> Sent: Thu 2/14/2008 12:11 PM
> To: Lee Schipper
> Cc: NewMobilityCafe at yahoogroups.com; shovan1209 at yahoo.com; Sustran
> Resource Centre; gerardn at rhd.gov.bd
> Subject: [sustran] Re: Pricing public transit:  learning from Bangkok
>
>
>  From living in Bangkok in 2005, I would say the best mode of transport
> (not the cleanest, but the best) are the motorboats on the canals. If
> Bangkok would "unearth" the rivers it has underground and developed a
> real water-based transport system, it may be less expensive and more
> efficient than many others.
>
> Incidentally, the river boats have similar routes to the Skytrain (on
> the klong behind Sukkumvit at least), at 8 baht (20 us cent) for along
> ride and 4 Baht (10 US cent) for a short ride (Bangkokians may confirm).
>
> And yes, the BTS is for tourists and visitors.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Carlosfelipe Pardo
> Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator
> GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC)
> Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708
> Bogotá D.C., Colombia
> Tel/fax:  +57 (1) 236 2309  Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662
> carlos.pardo at gtz.de        www.gtz.de
> (carlos.pardo at sutp.org   www.sutp.org )
>
>
>
> Lee Schipper wrote:
> > My daughter lives near the Skytrain, which makes her apartment very
> > accessible.. but others laughed and said "the Skytrain is for tourists
> > and students". Whatever, it works for journeys along the corridor. Her
> > building sends a shuttle, actually a small golf cart, to pick up
> > visitors and residents for the last 750 meters.
> >
> > When moving there from a nearby hotel ona Saturday afternoon with
> > baggage I made a mistake and took a cab. Took 50 minutes because of
> > horrible traffic and one way streets. Skytrain would have taken 10 mins
> > walk plus 4 minute ride. But I would have had to haul my bags up three
> > stories of stairs because the sky train stop near my hotel did not have
> > a lift or escalator, at least not one I could find.
> >
> > As for the metro, I'm told Thais do not like to ride underground, pure
> > and simple.
> >
> > The real issue is in Yasmin's cost figures --- How much money would it
> > cost to put in enough Skytrain and other rail lines to blanket the city?
> > And what good would it do without real restraints on individual vehicle
> > use -- widescale congestion pricing etc.
> >
> > Lee Schipper
> > EMBARQ Fellow
> > EMBARQ the WRI Center for  Sustainable Transport
> > www.embarq.wri.org
> >
> > and
> >
> > Visiting Scholar,
> > Univ of Calif Transport Center
> > Berkeley CA
> > www.uctc.net
> > skype: mrmeter
> > 510 642 6889
> > 202 262 7476
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org
> > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org at list.jca.apc.org] On
> > Behalf Of eric.britton
> > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:08 AM
> > To: Sustran Resource Centre; NewMobilityCafe at yahoogroups.com
> > Cc: shovan1209 at yahoo.com; gerardn at rhd.gov.bd
> > Subject: [sustran] Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok
> >
> > From: Saiful Alam [mailto:shovan1209 at yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 15:03
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Pricing public transit:  learning from Bangkok
> >
> > Yasmin Chowdhury
> >
> > When I first visited Bangkok in 1994, I got around the city mostly by
> > bus.
> > The buses were slow, the streets congested, and I soon learned that I
> > could
> > only make one plan for the morning and one for the afternoon, as it
> > might
> > take a couple hours to move about.
> >
> > Then the city started to build their skytrain.  I waited with great
> > anticipation for its completion.  It seemed to require a lot more time
> > and a
> > lot more money (OK, just two years of delay and three times over budget)
> > than originally anticipated, and the fares are admittedly quite high,
> > but it
> > was finally built-if never finished.  (I saw an article in a Thai
> > newspaper
> > about people very upset that the planned line to their area had never
> > been
> > built; meanwhile, the pilings leading to the now domestic-only airport
> > have
> > been converted into advertising posts.)
> >
> > To be quite honest, I love the skytrain.  Sure, the cement structure
> > looming
> > overhead is ugly.  Sure, most of the stations lack escalators, making
> > them
> > inaccessible to those in wheelchairs, and exceedingly difficult for
> > those
> > lugging heavy bags or luggage.  Sure, the two lines only cover a very
> > limited portion of Bangkok.  Sure, it's expensive.  Sure, despite all
> > the
> > hassles, the trains are often packed.  Sure, the stations are congested
> > and
> > I sometimes have to push through people to reach my train.  But at least
> > I
> > can see a little of the city while I travel, and I can now get around to
> > the
> > stops on the line quickly, allowing myself to visit far more places in a
> > day.
> >
> > Though the skytrain certainly makes moving around the city much easier
> > (if
> > you can afford it), it obviously didn't alleviate the congestion, as the
> > government then opened a very limited subway system.  The first time I
> > tried
> > to ride it, about a year after it opened, it was closed for two weeks
> > due to
> > an accident.  I finally rode it a couple years after that, and
> > discovered
> > that it cost about US$0.50 to ride what it would take me ten minutes to
> > walk.  That seemed outrageous, and I don't love riding up and down long
> > escalators and traveling in tunnels.  Since the Metro doesn't seem to go
> > much beyond the skytrain, I stick to the skytrain.
> >
> > But now, after spending billions of dollars on those mass transit
> > systems,
> > and despite having an existing extensive bus system, and more roads than
> > most Asian cities of their level of economic development, the government
> > is
> > now planning bus rapid transit-a bit like a street-level trolley, but
> > with
> > buses instead of trams.  Of course, that too is delayed-but the cost is
> > a
> > fraction of that for the skytrain and Metro.
> >
> > A more careful look at those costs reveals something interesting and of
> > considerable relevance as Dhaka plans its public transit system.
> > According
> > to various Web sites, the skytrain, which opened in 1999, cost about
> > US$1.5
> > billion for 24 kilometers.  That amounts to US$62.5 million per
> > kilometer.
> > Of course, things were cheaper back then.
> >
> > Construction of the Metro began back in 1996, but it wasn't finished
> > until
> > 2004.  According to Wikipedia, "The project suffered multiple delays not
> > only because of the 1997 economic crisis, but also due to challenging
> > civil
> > engineering works of constructing massive underground structures deep in
> > the
> > water-logged soil upon which the city is built."  Interesting.
> > Fortunately
> > we don't have those troubles in Dhaka (ahem!).
> >
> > As for cost, the Metro cost a mere US$ 2.75 billion for 21 km, or
> > US$130.95
> > million per kilometer-just over twice that of the skytrain.  Apparently
> > burrowing underground, dealing with flooding issues, providing
> > ventilation,
> > and so on is much more expensive than building above our heads.
> > Meanwhile,
> > again quoting Wikipedia, "ridership has settled down to around 180,000
> > riders daily - considerably lower than projections of over 400,000,
> > despite
> > fares being slashed in half from 12-38 baht to 10-15 baht per trip. As
> > of
> > 2006, fares range between 14-36 baht per trip."  With an exchange rate
> > as I
> > write of 32 baht to one US dollar, that's a mighty high fare.  Good
> > thing
> > Bangladeshis are wealthier than Thais (??).
> >
> > Meanwhile, the anticipated cost for the BRT is 33.4 million for 36
> > kilometers.  Admittedly, anticipated costs are often far less than
> > actual
> > costs, but still, at US$0.93 million per kilometer, that's a bargain
> > compared to the Metro or the skytrain-even more so when considering it's
> > being built last, when prices are highest.  At 67 times less than the
> > skytrain and 141 times less than the Metro, even with significant cost
> > increases, it will still be far more affordable than its public transit
> > predecessors.
> >
> > Of course, operational costs are another issue.  Buses require fuel,
> > trains
> > electricity.  Buses tend to require more maintenance, tires wear down
> > frequently, and buses have to be replaced far more often than trains.
> > While
> > it is cheaper to build a BRT system initially, the higher operational
> > costs
> > might mean that, in the long term, a tram system would be more
> > affordable-tram meaning street-level light rail, not something up in the
> > sky
> > or underground, which greatly multiplies the costs.
> >
> > Which is all to say, I'm all for public transit.  So, apparently, are
> > Thais:
> > last I checked, hotels and housing advertise their proximity to the
> > various
> > public transit options.  Apparently people are sick and tired of sitting
> > in
> > cars stuck in traffic jams.  In public transit, you can sit back and
> > read a
> > book while you ride, look out the window (preferably not at tunnels),
> > eavesdrop on your neighbor's conversation, and otherwise amuse yourself
> > without risking crashing into someone once the traffic moves again.
> >
> > But when considering spending millions or billions on public transit, it
> > would make sense to invest it wisely, in a system that will be the most
> > extensive and least expensive, and thus offer the best value for the
> > money.
> > At 141 times per kilometer less to build BRT than Metro, we could both
> > have
> > a far more extensive system, meeting far more people's needs, and lower
> > fares.  Sounds like a bargain to me!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Syed Siful Alam Shovan
> > shovan1209 at yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via
> > YAHOOGROUPS.
> >
> > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to
> > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The
> > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to
> > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem
> > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
> >
> > ================================================================
> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> > (the 'Global South').
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via
> YAHOOGROUPS.
> >
> > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to
> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The
> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the
> real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you
> can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
> >
> > ================================================================
> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> (the 'Global South').
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------
> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via
> YAHOOGROUPS.
>
> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to
> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The
> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the
> real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you
> can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
>
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> (the 'Global South').
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via
> YAHOOGROUPS.
>
> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to
> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The
> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the
> real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you
> can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
>
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> (the 'Global South').
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via
> YAHOOGROUPS.
>
> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to
> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The
> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the
> real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you
> can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
>
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> (the 'Global South').
>



-- 
------------------------------------------------------
Sujit Patwardhan
sujit at vsnl.com
sujitjp at gmail.com

"Yamuna",
ICS Colony,
Ganeshkhind Road,
Pune 411 007
India
Tel: 25537955
-----------------------------------------------------
Hon. Secretary:
Parisar
www.parisar.org
------------------------------------------------------
Founder Member:
PTTF
(Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum)
www.pttf.net
------------------------------------------------------