From whook at itdp.org Fri Feb 1 06:57:33 2008 From: whook at itdp.org (Walter Hook) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:57:33 -0500 Subject: [sustran] any details on Nano and safety and environmental regs? In-Reply-To: <683ba1ca0801280340t2b4c59f3i1b4268c8773de2d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005f01c86454$509e6f10$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> I was "mis" quoted in the Daily News saying the Nano does not meet Western emissions, road worthyness and safety standards. What i said was that it "might" not but that i didn't know. Does anybody know for sure? Would it be in compliance with euro IV or EPA standards, etc? -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Sarath Guttikunda Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 6:41 AM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Cc: Anumita; RThom@wri.org Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobilityorMobilizing Crime Dear Anumita, Thanks for your elaborate email.. My 2 cents, In an interview with Ratan Tata, he mentioned that goal behind making Nano is family safety and he is inspired to making Nano after seeing a family on a motorcycle. I have seen some arguments in papers and on net, that the largest jump in buying a Nano will come from the MC group. This I doubt. A simple math between MCs and Cars, assuming all gasoline (priced at Rs.50per liter) and a family traveling 30 km per day. MCs give 60 km per lit, which translates to Rs.0.83 per km or Rs.7800 per year per family. If the family jumps to a Nano, assuming a 20 km per lit, math translates to Rs.2.50per km or Rs.23,400 per year per family. One year = 6 working days per week and 52 weeks. On an average, a middle class family with MC in India earns between 10K to 15K. Even if we take the higher end of 15K, this accounts to 4% for MCs and 13% for cars on fuel expenses per year. That is a big change. This does not account for the price difference (~Rs.40K for MC and Rs.125Kfor Nano) and interests they will incur for 5 or 10 years of loans, insurance, and maintenance. And lets not forget Parking - even if it is cheap compared to the developed nations. There is no doubt that with growing demand for cars, Nano will be a hit (similar to Maruti 800 when it arrived in the 80's) - given the production levels are as high as the current demand. What we saw on TV is a glimpse of the car which is still a year away or less from hitting the roads. A good public awareness campaign with numbers will do good - explaining what people will end up spending - both in terms on money and time (leading to more congestion). MCs are by far the largest number in the country and will remain so for the coming decades. On the other side, a good price differential and extra tax for cars, Nano could shift some people away from buying SUVs, who knows :-) Cars are not bad, but more cars on road make it worse. Similarly, there are some discussions on how Nano will cut into the 3Ws and Taxi market, which is also stretching the limits. In the cities like Delhi, Mumbai, Hyderabad, or Bangalore, parking has already become a problem, and more cars will not make it easy. Under a parking cap, 3Ws and Taxis still rule the short trip version. As we argue on cars and MCs, as Anumita pointed out, we have to also understand the lack of "public transport" in place to take the current travel loads. And also the share of diesel on road. We are basically stuck at "Access to Mobility". with regards, Sarath -- Sarath Guttikunda New Delhi, India Phone: +91 9891 315 946 Email: sguttikunda@gmail.com On Jan 25, 2008 11:56 AM, Anumita wrote: > Lee, > > I guess all of us are saying the same thing. Clearly, this fuss over Nano > is just not > about Nano but about cars, all cars - big, small, cheap, expensive cars. > Nano has > given us the chance to focus the public debate on congestion, oil guzzling > and > emissions and make these concerns more visible. This debate is certainly > very > nuanced. > > -- Look at the Indian paradox today - super cheap cars like Nano will > expand the > bottom of the market pyramid when rising incomes have already triggered a > steady > drift to bigger cars and SUVs. So the ends are stretched both ways. Car > companies > will continue to compete on costs in a price sensitive market. With frugal > engineering, > weak regulations, fiscal largess to the car companies, even for their > production > facilities, cars can come very cheap. Question is how do we deal with it? > > -- Interestingly, in a car to car comparison nano or any small car can > offer fuel > savings - certainly more sensible than the bigger, more powerful, high > performance > cars that are about several hundreds per 1000 people in many > industrialized cities. > But the new investments in the Indian auto sector will have to be linked > with stringent > emissions regulations, in-use compliance requirements and efficiency > standards. > > - But the reason why we are debating Nano, and, are so concerned today, is > because we still have the time, the chance and the alternatives to plan > mobility > systems differently in Indian cities. We already have a reasonable > strength in the > usage of public transport at least in big cities, NMT and walking -- that > if protected > and improved can help us to take an alternative route and avoid huge > emissions and > oil guzzling in Indian cities. Building alternatives at this stage of > motorisation is critical > -- cars may drive growth and aspirations, but they can never meet the > commuting > needs of the urban majority. > > -- But this is where we draw a blank. As in the rest of the world we have > also realized > that to a very great extent mobility management hinges on fiscal measures > (in > addition to providing good public transport). But the wisdom of taxing a > product for > the vice and not just for their values is still quite alien to the Indian > and many other > Asian fiscal regimes. The governments are strongly entrenched in command > and > control strategies. They are still not looking at fiscal measures that can > change > consumer and commuter choices, push cities to make better choices on > transportation options, create alternative sources of revenue and broaden > the > revenue base to fund mobility and technology transition. But this will > require a > different kind of maturity and sophistication in our fiscal regimen. > > -- Greening of taxes will be an even bigger battle in the present context > of > governance and public awareness. Aspirational vote bank never says tax our > cars > and the governance systems in cities are not strong enough to force it > down. > Therefore, just the opposite is happening today. The city governments > penalize buses > by taxing them higher per passenger they carry than cars that carry lot > less and use > up more road space etc. > > -- In Delhi, we are amidst discussions on fuel taxes, parking charges, > road taxes etc. > But resistance is unbelievable. Even if matters move in Delhi it will > still be a drop in > the ocean. The policy mandate on transportation and mobility matters is so > decentralized that it is the ability of all individual cities that will > ultimately decide the > progress on this front. National policies like JNURM etc are still not > strong enough > framework to create a template for the cities. Smaller cities are going to > be even > more badly hit by small car explosion as public policies on public > transport are > virtually non existent for these cities - just because these cities do not > have high > density travel corridors to justify investment in 'profitable' public > transport. This > means millions are left to organise their own mobility and will happily > graduate from > bicycles and cycle rickshaws to cheap cars. > > -- We need to understand that when it comes to practical planning for > mobility > management in our cities the basic policy tools, databases, policy > indicators of > sustainability etc do not even exist to enable city level planning and > action. Even > public voice remains dormant. This is where we need to move fast to see > some real > action. Otherwise, good ideas will remain good ideas while cars take over. > > Anumita > > ****************************** > > > > ************************** > > Anumita Roychowdhury > > Associate Director,Research and Advocacy > > Centre for Science and Environment > > 41, Tughlakabad Institutional Area > > New Delhi 110062 > > Tel: 91-11-29955124, 29955125, 29956394 > > Fax: 91-11-29955879, 29955870 > > Email: anumita@cseindia.org > > Website: www.cseindia.org > > *************************************************** > > > On 24 Jan 2008 at 10:40, Lee Schipper wrote: > > > Anumita, what do you say? Sounds like we're between a piece of rubber > > and a spare tyre > > > > > > Lee Schipper > > EMBARQ Fellow > > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > > www.embarq.wri.org > > and > > Visiting Scholar > > UC Transportation Center > > Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net > > skype: mrmeter > > +1 510 642 6889 > > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > > > From schipper at wri.org Fri Feb 1 07:00:34 2008 From: schipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:00:34 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: any details on Nano and safety and environmental regs? References: <005f01c86454$509e6f10$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C012A19CA@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Mike, can you help. I was interviewed by CNN Business but no response yet.. Lee Schipper EMBARQ Fellow EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net skype: mrmeter +1 510 642 6889 Cell +1 202 262 7476 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Walter Hook Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:58 PM To: 'Sarath Guttikunda'; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Cc: 'Anumita'; Rhys Thom Subject: [sustran] any details on Nano and safety and environmental regs? I was "mis" quoted in the Daily News saying the Nano does not meet Western emissions, road worthyness and safety standards. What i said was that it "might" not but that i didn't know. Does anybody know for sure? Would it be in compliance with euro IV or EPA standards, etc? -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Sarath Guttikunda Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 6:41 AM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Cc: Anumita; RThom@wri.org Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: CriminalizingMobilityorMobilizing Crime Dear Anumita, Thanks for your elaborate email.. My 2 cents, In an interview with Ratan Tata, he mentioned that goal behind making Nano is family safety and he is inspired to making Nano after seeing a family on a motorcycle. I have seen some arguments in papers and on net, that the largest jump in buying a Nano will come from the MC group. This I doubt. A simple math between MCs and Cars, assuming all gasoline (priced at Rs.50per liter) and a family traveling 30 km per day. MCs give 60 km per lit, which translates to Rs.0.83 per km or Rs.7800 per year per family. If the family jumps to a Nano, assuming a 20 km per lit, math translates to Rs.2.50per km or Rs.23,400 per year per family. One year = 6 working days per week and 52 weeks. On an average, a middle class family with MC in India earns between 10K to 15K. Even if we take the higher end of 15K, this accounts to 4% for MCs and 13% for cars on fuel expenses per year. That is a big change. This does not account for the price difference (~Rs.40K for MC and Rs.125Kfor Nano) and interests they will incur for 5 or 10 years of loans, insurance, and maintenance. And lets not forget Parking - even if it is cheap compared to the developed nations. There is no doubt that with growing demand for cars, Nano will be a hit (similar to Maruti 800 when it arrived in the 80's) - given the production levels are as high as the current demand. What we saw on TV is a glimpse of the car which is still a year away or less from hitting the roads. A good public awareness campaign with numbers will do good - explaining what people will end up spending - both in terms on money and time (leading to more congestion). MCs are by far the largest number in the country and will remain so for the coming decades. On the other side, a good price differential and extra tax for cars, Nano could shift some people away from buying SUVs, who knows :-) Cars are not bad, but more cars on road make it worse. Similarly, there are some discussions on how Nano will cut into the 3Ws and Taxi market, which is also stretching the limits. In the cities like Delhi, Mumbai, Hyderabad, or Bangalore, parking has already become a problem, and more cars will not make it easy. Under a parking cap, 3Ws and Taxis still rule the short trip version. As we argue on cars and MCs, as Anumita pointed out, we have to also understand the lack of "public transport" in place to take the current travel loads. And also the share of diesel on road. We are basically stuck at "Access to Mobility". with regards, Sarath -- Sarath Guttikunda New Delhi, India Phone: +91 9891 315 946 Email: sguttikunda@gmail.com On Jan 25, 2008 11:56 AM, Anumita wrote: > Lee, > > I guess all of us are saying the same thing. Clearly, this fuss over > Nano is just not about Nano but about cars, all cars - big, small, > cheap, expensive cars. > Nano has > given us the chance to focus the public debate on congestion, oil > guzzling and emissions and make these concerns more visible. This > debate is certainly very nuanced. > > -- Look at the Indian paradox today - super cheap cars like Nano will > expand the bottom of the market pyramid when rising incomes have > already triggered a steady drift to bigger cars and SUVs. So the ends > are stretched both ways. Car companies will continue to compete on > costs in a price sensitive market. With frugal engineering, weak > regulations, fiscal largess to the car companies, even for their > production facilities, cars can come very cheap. Question is how do we > deal with it? > > -- Interestingly, in a car to car comparison nano or any small car can > offer fuel savings - certainly more sensible than the bigger, more > powerful, high performance cars that are about several hundreds per > 1000 people in many industrialized cities. > But the new investments in the Indian auto sector will have to be > linked with stringent emissions regulations, in-use compliance > requirements and efficiency standards. > > - But the reason why we are debating Nano, and, are so concerned > today, is because we still have the time, the chance and the > alternatives to plan mobility systems differently in Indian cities. We > already have a reasonable strength in the usage of public transport at > least in big cities, NMT and walking -- that if protected and improved > can help us to take an alternative route and avoid huge emissions and > oil guzzling in Indian cities. Building alternatives at this stage of > motorisation is critical > -- cars may drive growth and aspirations, but they can never meet the > commuting needs of the urban majority. > > -- But this is where we draw a blank. As in the rest of the world we > have also realized that to a very great extent mobility management > hinges on fiscal measures (in addition to providing good public > transport). But the wisdom of taxing a product for the vice and not > just for their values is still quite alien to the Indian and many > other Asian fiscal regimes. The governments are strongly entrenched in > command and control strategies. They are still not looking at fiscal > measures that can change consumer and commuter choices, push cities to > make better choices on transportation options, create alternative > sources of revenue and broaden the revenue base to fund mobility and > technology transition. But this will require a different kind of > maturity and sophistication in our fiscal regimen. > > -- Greening of taxes will be an even bigger battle in the present > context of governance and public awareness. Aspirational vote bank > never says tax our cars and the governance systems in cities are not > strong enough to force it down. > Therefore, just the opposite is happening today. The city governments > penalize buses by taxing them higher per passenger they carry than > cars that carry lot less and use up more road space etc. > > -- In Delhi, we are amidst discussions on fuel taxes, parking charges, > road taxes etc. > But resistance is unbelievable. Even if matters move in Delhi it will > still be a drop in the ocean. The policy mandate on transportation and > mobility matters is so decentralized that it is the ability of all > individual cities that will ultimately decide the progress on this > front. National policies like JNURM etc are still not strong enough > framework to create a template for the cities. Smaller cities are > going to be even more badly hit by small car explosion as public > policies on public transport are virtually non existent for these > cities - just because these cities do not have high density travel > corridors to justify investment in 'profitable' public transport. > This means millions are left to organise their own mobility and will > happily graduate from bicycles and cycle rickshaws to cheap cars. > > -- We need to understand that when it comes to practical planning for > mobility management in our cities the basic policy tools, databases, > policy indicators of sustainability etc do not even exist to enable > city level planning and action. Even public voice remains dormant. > This is where we need to move fast to see some real action. Otherwise, > good ideas will remain good ideas while cars take over. > > Anumita > > ****************************** > > > > ************************** > > Anumita Roychowdhury > > Associate Director,Research and Advocacy Centre for Science and > > Environment 41, Tughlakabad Institutional Area New Delhi 110062 > > Tel: 91-11-29955124, 29955125, 29956394 > > Fax: 91-11-29955879, 29955870 > > Email: anumita@cseindia.org > > Website: www.cseindia.org > > *************************************************** > > > On 24 Jan 2008 at 10:40, Lee Schipper wrote: > > > Anumita, what do you say? Sounds like we're between a piece of > > rubber and a spare tyre > > > > > > Lee Schipper > > EMBARQ Fellow > > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org > > and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA > > www.uctc.net > > skype: mrmeter > > +1 510 642 6889 > > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From itdpasia at comcast.net Fri Feb 1 08:04:05 2008 From: itdpasia at comcast.net (John Ernst) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:04:05 -0700 Subject: [sustran] Re: any details on Nano and safety and environmental regs? In-Reply-To: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C012A19CA@wricsex029330.WRI .CRM.Local> References: <005f01c86454$509e6f10$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C012A19CA@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Message-ID: <20080131230503.6E2812BC46@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> New Scientist reports that it does meet Euro IV emissions standards, see http://www.newscientist.com/blog/environment/2008/01/environmental-impact-of-indias-nano-car.html. I assume they are going off of Tata's claimed emissions and not actual tests. But this would not be unreasonable for the small fuel-injected engine Tata has in there. It does not have air bags, so it does not meet US safety standards. I don't believe EU standards require air bags in all cars...?? I'm not sure what roadworthiness standards would be, but Tata has extensive experience building vehicles, so I imagine the Nano can handle the basics in terms of handling and braking. best, John www. itdp.org At 03:00 PM 1/31/2008, Lee Schipper wrote: > Mike, can you help. >I was interviewed by CNN Business but no response yet.. > > >Lee Schipper >EMBARQ Fellow >EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport >www.embarq.wri.org >and >Visiting Scholar >UC Transportation Center >Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net >skype: mrmeter >+1 510 642 6889 >Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org >[mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On >Behalf Of Walter Hook >Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:58 PM >To: 'Sarath Guttikunda'; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >Cc: 'Anumita'; Rhys Thom >Subject: [sustran] any details on Nano and safety and environmental >regs? > >I was "mis" quoted in the Daily News saying the Nano does not meet >Western emissions, road worthyness and safety standards. What i said >was that it "might" not but that i didn't know. > >Does anybody know for sure? Would it be in compliance with euro IV or >EPA standards, etc? > >-----Original Message----- >From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org >[mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On >Behalf Of Sarath Guttikunda >Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 6:41 AM >To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >Cc: Anumita; RThom@wri.org >Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: >CriminalizingMobilityorMobilizing Crime > >Dear Anumita, > >Thanks for your elaborate email.. > >My 2 cents, > >In an interview with Ratan Tata, he mentioned that goal behind making >Nano is family safety and he is inspired to making Nano after seeing a >family on a motorcycle. I have seen some arguments in papers and on net, >that the largest jump in buying a Nano will come from the MC group. This >I doubt. > >A simple math between MCs and Cars, assuming all gasoline (priced at >Rs.50per liter) and a family traveling 30 km per day. MCs give 60 km per >lit, which translates to Rs.0.83 per km or Rs.7800 per year per family. >If the family jumps to a Nano, assuming a 20 km per lit, math translates >to Rs.2.50per km or Rs.23,400 per year per family. One year = 6 working >days per week and 52 weeks. > >On an average, a middle class family with MC in India earns between 10K >to 15K. Even if we take the higher end of 15K, this accounts to 4% for >MCs and 13% for cars on fuel expenses per year. That is a big change. > >This does not account for the price difference (~Rs.40K for MC and >Rs.125Kfor Nano) and interests they will incur for 5 or 10 years of >loans, insurance, and maintenance. And lets not forget Parking - even if >it is cheap compared to the developed nations. > >There is no doubt that with growing demand for cars, Nano will be a hit >(similar to Maruti 800 when it arrived in the 80's) - given the >production levels are as high as the current demand. What we saw on TV >is a glimpse of the car which is still a year away or less from hitting >the roads. A good public awareness campaign with numbers will do good - >explaining what people will end up spending - both in terms on money and >time (leading to more congestion). > >MCs are by far the largest number in the country and will remain so for >the coming decades. On the other side, a good price differential and >extra tax for cars, Nano could shift some people away from buying SUVs, >who knows :-) Cars are not bad, but more cars on road make it worse. > >Similarly, there are some discussions on how Nano will cut into the 3Ws >and Taxi market, which is also stretching the limits. In the cities like >Delhi, Mumbai, Hyderabad, or Bangalore, parking has already become a >problem, and more cars will not make it easy. Under a parking cap, 3Ws >and Taxis still rule the short trip version. > >As we argue on cars and MCs, as Anumita pointed out, we have to also >understand the lack of "public transport" in place to take the current >travel loads. And also the share of diesel on road. We are basically >stuck at "Access to Mobility". > >with regards, >Sarath > >-- >Sarath Guttikunda >New Delhi, India >Phone: +91 9891 315 946 >Email: sguttikunda@gmail.com > >On Jan 25, 2008 11:56 AM, Anumita wrote: > > > Lee, > > > > I guess all of us are saying the same thing. Clearly, this fuss over > > Nano is just not about Nano but about cars, all cars - big, small, > > cheap, expensive cars. > > Nano has > > given us the chance to focus the public debate on congestion, oil > > guzzling and emissions and make these concerns more visible. This > > debate is certainly very nuanced. > > > > -- Look at the Indian paradox today - super cheap cars like Nano will > > expand the bottom of the market pyramid when rising incomes have > > already triggered a steady drift to bigger cars and SUVs. So the ends > > are stretched both ways. Car companies will continue to compete on > > costs in a price sensitive market. With frugal engineering, weak > > regulations, fiscal largess to the car companies, even for their > > production facilities, cars can come very cheap. Question is how do we > > > deal with it? > > > > -- Interestingly, in a car to car comparison nano or any small car can > > > offer fuel savings - certainly more sensible than the bigger, more > > powerful, high performance cars that are about several hundreds per > > 1000 people in many industrialized cities. > > But the new investments in the Indian auto sector will have to be > > linked with stringent emissions regulations, in-use compliance > > requirements and efficiency standards. > > > > - But the reason why we are debating Nano, and, are so concerned > > today, is because we still have the time, the chance and the > > alternatives to plan mobility systems differently in Indian cities. We > > > already have a reasonable strength in the usage of public transport at > > > least in big cities, NMT and walking -- that if protected and improved > > > can help us to take an alternative route and avoid huge emissions and > > oil guzzling in Indian cities. Building alternatives at this stage of > > motorisation is critical > > -- cars may drive growth and aspirations, but they can never meet the > > commuting needs of the urban majority. > > > > -- But this is where we draw a blank. As in the rest of the world we > > have also realized that to a very great extent mobility management > > hinges on fiscal measures (in addition to providing good public > > transport). But the wisdom of taxing a product for the vice and not > > just for their values is still quite alien to the Indian and many > > other Asian fiscal regimes. The governments are strongly entrenched in > > > command and control strategies. They are still not looking at fiscal > > measures that can change consumer and commuter choices, push cities to > > > make better choices on transportation options, create alternative > > sources of revenue and broaden the revenue base to fund mobility and > > technology transition. But this will require a different kind of > > maturity and sophistication in our fiscal regimen. > > > > -- Greening of taxes will be an even bigger battle in the present > > context of governance and public awareness. Aspirational vote bank > > never says tax our cars and the governance systems in cities are not > > strong enough to force it down. > > Therefore, just the opposite is happening today. The city governments > > penalize buses by taxing them higher per passenger they carry than > > cars that carry lot less and use up more road space etc. > > > > -- In Delhi, we are amidst discussions on fuel taxes, parking charges, > > > road taxes etc. > > But resistance is unbelievable. Even if matters move in Delhi it will > > still be a drop in the ocean. The policy mandate on transportation and > > > mobility matters is so decentralized that it is the ability of all > > individual cities that will ultimately decide the progress on this > > front. National policies like JNURM etc are still not strong enough > > framework to create a template for the cities. Smaller cities are > > going to be even more badly hit by small car explosion as public > > policies on public transport are virtually non existent for these > > cities - just because these cities do not have high density travel > > corridors to justify investment in 'profitable' public transport. > > This means millions are left to organise their own mobility and will > > happily graduate from bicycles and cycle rickshaws to cheap cars. > > > > -- We need to understand that when it comes to practical planning for > > mobility management in our cities the basic policy tools, databases, > > policy indicators of sustainability etc do not even exist to enable > > city level planning and action. Even public voice remains dormant. > > This is where we need to move fast to see some real action. Otherwise, > > > good ideas will remain good ideas while cars take over. > > > > Anumita > > > > ****************************** > > > > > > ************************** > > > Anumita Roychowdhury > > > Associate Director,Research and Advocacy Centre for Science and > > > Environment 41, Tughlakabad Institutional Area New Delhi 110062 > > > Tel: 91-11-29955124, 29955125, 29956394 > > > Fax: 91-11-29955879, 29955870 > > > Email: anumita@cseindia.org > > > Website: www.cseindia.org > > > *************************************************** > > > > > > On 24 Jan 2008 at 10:40, Lee Schipper wrote: > > > > > Anumita, what do you say? Sounds like we're between a piece of > > > rubber and a spare tyre > > > > > > > > > Lee Schipper > > > EMBARQ Fellow > > > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org > > > and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA > > > www.uctc.net > > > skype: mrmeter > > > +1 510 642 6889 > > > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > > > > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------- >IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >YAHOOGROUPS. > >Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to >join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The >yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to >the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem >like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > >================================================================ >SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >(the 'Global South'). >-------------------------------------------------------- >IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > >Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss >to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The >yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post >to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it >seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > >================================================================ >SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >countries (the 'Global South'). From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Fri Feb 1 16:23:28 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 08:23:28 +0100 Subject: [sustran] City Bikes in developing world cities Message-ID: <002d01c864a3$59670630$0c351290$@britton@ecoplan.org> Dear Sir, I am Sudhir, a researcher on sustainability issues from India. I have been following the mails in world city bike forum. I would like to indicate the issue pertaining to cyclists in developing countries like India. We don't have any infrastructure like cycletracks in cities like Bangalore. Let us consider the Bangalore Case. * As per my estimate Bangalore loses out nearly 208 million Rs per day due to congestion. * Cycling as a mode of transport is virtually non existent in Bangalore (less than 2%). * Bangalore has nearly 477853 cycles which contribute only 15% operational trips. * We don't have promoters of cycling mode and thus no public outcry. * We even don't have proper design code for the Cycle Tracks (only code available is IRC-11-1962) Sir, can we also concentrate upon developing countries in order to gain momentum. With Kind Regards Sudhir Project Engineer, Highways Div. SECON Pvt Ltd. 147, 7B Road, EPIP, Whitefield, Bangalore 560066 Ph: 080-41197778 (413) From mpwalsh at igc.org Fri Feb 1 16:38:47 2008 From: mpwalsh at igc.org (Michael P. Walsh) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 02:38:47 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: any details on Nano and safety and environmental regs? In-Reply-To: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C012A19CA@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> References: <005f01c86454$509e6f10$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C012A19CA@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Message-ID: <47A2CC87.8020901@igc.org> My understanding is that it will comply with the emissions requirements at Type Approval (a prototype well maintained vehicle) but I am skeptical that it will comply in use over its lifetime. But of course no one has any actual data at this point. Best regards, Mike Lee Schipper wrote: > Mike, can you help. >I was interviewed by CNN Business but no response yet.. > > >Lee Schipper >EMBARQ Fellow >EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport >www.embarq.wri.org >and >Visiting Scholar >UC Transportation Center >Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net >skype: mrmeter >+1 510 642 6889 >Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org >[mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On >Behalf Of Walter Hook >Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:58 PM >To: 'Sarath Guttikunda'; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >Cc: 'Anumita'; Rhys Thom >Subject: [sustran] any details on Nano and safety and environmental >regs? > >I was "mis" quoted in the Daily News saying the Nano does not meet >Western emissions, road worthyness and safety standards. What i said >was that it "might" not but that i didn't know. > >Does anybody know for sure? Would it be in compliance with euro IV or >EPA standards, etc? > >-----Original Message----- >From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org >[mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On >Behalf Of Sarath Guttikunda >Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 6:41 AM >To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org >Cc: Anumita; RThom@wri.org >Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: >CriminalizingMobilityorMobilizing Crime > >Dear Anumita, > >Thanks for your elaborate email.. > >My 2 cents, > >In an interview with Ratan Tata, he mentioned that goal behind making >Nano is family safety and he is inspired to making Nano after seeing a >family on a motorcycle. I have seen some arguments in papers and on net, >that the largest jump in buying a Nano will come from the MC group. This >I doubt. > >A simple math between MCs and Cars, assuming all gasoline (priced at >Rs.50per liter) and a family traveling 30 km per day. MCs give 60 km per >lit, which translates to Rs.0.83 per km or Rs.7800 per year per family. >If the family jumps to a Nano, assuming a 20 km per lit, math translates >to Rs.2.50per km or Rs.23,400 per year per family. One year = 6 working >days per week and 52 weeks. > >On an average, a middle class family with MC in India earns between 10K >to 15K. Even if we take the higher end of 15K, this accounts to 4% for >MCs and 13% for cars on fuel expenses per year. That is a big change. > >This does not account for the price difference (~Rs.40K for MC and >Rs.125Kfor Nano) and interests they will incur for 5 or 10 years of >loans, insurance, and maintenance. And lets not forget Parking - even if >it is cheap compared to the developed nations. > >There is no doubt that with growing demand for cars, Nano will be a hit >(similar to Maruti 800 when it arrived in the 80's) - given the >production levels are as high as the current demand. What we saw on TV >is a glimpse of the car which is still a year away or less from hitting >the roads. A good public awareness campaign with numbers will do good - >explaining what people will end up spending - both in terms on money and >time (leading to more congestion). > >MCs are by far the largest number in the country and will remain so for >the coming decades. On the other side, a good price differential and >extra tax for cars, Nano could shift some people away from buying SUVs, >who knows :-) Cars are not bad, but more cars on road make it worse. > >Similarly, there are some discussions on how Nano will cut into the 3Ws >and Taxi market, which is also stretching the limits. In the cities like >Delhi, Mumbai, Hyderabad, or Bangalore, parking has already become a >problem, and more cars will not make it easy. Under a parking cap, 3Ws >and Taxis still rule the short trip version. > >As we argue on cars and MCs, as Anumita pointed out, we have to also >understand the lack of "public transport" in place to take the current >travel loads. And also the share of diesel on road. We are basically >stuck at "Access to Mobility". > >with regards, >Sarath > >-- >Sarath Guttikunda >New Delhi, India >Phone: +91 9891 315 946 >Email: sguttikunda@gmail.com > >On Jan 25, 2008 11:56 AM, Anumita wrote: > > > >>Lee, >> >>I guess all of us are saying the same thing. Clearly, this fuss over >>Nano is just not about Nano but about cars, all cars - big, small, >>cheap, expensive cars. >>Nano has >>given us the chance to focus the public debate on congestion, oil >>guzzling and emissions and make these concerns more visible. This >>debate is certainly very nuanced. >> >>-- Look at the Indian paradox today - super cheap cars like Nano will >>expand the bottom of the market pyramid when rising incomes have >>already triggered a steady drift to bigger cars and SUVs. So the ends >>are stretched both ways. Car companies will continue to compete on >>costs in a price sensitive market. With frugal engineering, weak >>regulations, fiscal largess to the car companies, even for their >>production facilities, cars can come very cheap. Question is how do we >> >> > > > >>deal with it? >> >>-- Interestingly, in a car to car comparison nano or any small car can >> >> > > > >>offer fuel savings - certainly more sensible than the bigger, more >>powerful, high performance cars that are about several hundreds per >>1000 people in many industrialized cities. >>But the new investments in the Indian auto sector will have to be >>linked with stringent emissions regulations, in-use compliance >>requirements and efficiency standards. >> >>- But the reason why we are debating Nano, and, are so concerned >>today, is because we still have the time, the chance and the >>alternatives to plan mobility systems differently in Indian cities. We >> >> > > > >>already have a reasonable strength in the usage of public transport at >> >> > > > >>least in big cities, NMT and walking -- that if protected and improved >> >> > > > >>can help us to take an alternative route and avoid huge emissions and >>oil guzzling in Indian cities. Building alternatives at this stage of >>motorisation is critical >>-- cars may drive growth and aspirations, but they can never meet the >>commuting needs of the urban majority. >> >>-- But this is where we draw a blank. As in the rest of the world we >>have also realized that to a very great extent mobility management >>hinges on fiscal measures (in addition to providing good public >>transport). But the wisdom of taxing a product for the vice and not >>just for their values is still quite alien to the Indian and many >>other Asian fiscal regimes. The governments are strongly entrenched in >> >> > > > >>command and control strategies. They are still not looking at fiscal >>measures that can change consumer and commuter choices, push cities to >> >> > > > >>make better choices on transportation options, create alternative >>sources of revenue and broaden the revenue base to fund mobility and >>technology transition. But this will require a different kind of >>maturity and sophistication in our fiscal regimen. >> >>-- Greening of taxes will be an even bigger battle in the present >>context of governance and public awareness. Aspirational vote bank >>never says tax our cars and the governance systems in cities are not >>strong enough to force it down. >>Therefore, just the opposite is happening today. The city governments >>penalize buses by taxing them higher per passenger they carry than >>cars that carry lot less and use up more road space etc. >> >>-- In Delhi, we are amidst discussions on fuel taxes, parking charges, >> >> > > > >>road taxes etc. >>But resistance is unbelievable. Even if matters move in Delhi it will >>still be a drop in the ocean. The policy mandate on transportation and >> >> > > > >>mobility matters is so decentralized that it is the ability of all >>individual cities that will ultimately decide the progress on this >>front. National policies like JNURM etc are still not strong enough >>framework to create a template for the cities. Smaller cities are >>going to be even more badly hit by small car explosion as public >>policies on public transport are virtually non existent for these >>cities - just because these cities do not have high density travel >>corridors to justify investment in 'profitable' public transport. >>This means millions are left to organise their own mobility and will >>happily graduate from bicycles and cycle rickshaws to cheap cars. >> >>-- We need to understand that when it comes to practical planning for >>mobility management in our cities the basic policy tools, databases, >>policy indicators of sustainability etc do not even exist to enable >>city level planning and action. Even public voice remains dormant. >>This is where we need to move fast to see some real action. Otherwise, >> >> > > > >>good ideas will remain good ideas while cars take over. >> >>Anumita >> >>****************************** >> >> >>>************************** >>>Anumita Roychowdhury >>>Associate Director,Research and Advocacy Centre for Science and >>>Environment 41, Tughlakabad Institutional Area New Delhi 110062 >>>Tel: 91-11-29955124, 29955125, 29956394 >>>Fax: 91-11-29955879, 29955870 >>>Email: anumita@cseindia.org >>>Website: www.cseindia.org >>>*************************************************** >>> >>> >>On 24 Jan 2008 at 10:40, Lee Schipper wrote: >> >> >> >>>Anumita, what do you say? Sounds like we're between a piece of >>>rubber and a spare tyre >>> >>> >>>Lee Schipper >>>EMBARQ Fellow >>>EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org >>>and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA >>>www.uctc.net >>>skype: mrmeter >>>+1 510 642 6889 >>>Cell +1 202 262 7476 >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > >-------------------------------------------------------- >IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >YAHOOGROUPS. > >Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to >join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The >yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to >the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem >like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > >================================================================ >SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >(the 'Global South'). > > > > From whook at itdp.org Sat Feb 2 05:21:48 2008 From: whook at itdp.org (Walter Hook) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 15:21:48 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: City Bikes in developing world cities In-Reply-To: <002d01c864a3$59670630$0c351290$@britton@ecoplan.org> Message-ID: <005201c86510$143e04b0$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> In delhi, itdp India has started some regular bicycle promotion rides and heritage rides. It is a start. It is not so hard to do, and they are getting some good press. Perhaps you could just form a Bangalore cycling club and get started meeting every Sunday or something. A group of riders is safer than going it alone, and maybe the city police would support by providing a police traffic cell initially. Maybe you can convince city authorities to close some popular streets on Sundays. There are good bike facilities planned for the new High capacity bus corridor in Delhi designed by IIT TRIPP, with some input from us, and the Ahmedabad BRT also should have good bike facilities along it. Not sure how well they will work in the Indian context where obstacles from poor pavement maintenance, vendors, building materials lying around etc. are a real nuisance. Things that work in Holland may not work well in Indian conditions. We are going to need to experiment with a few alternatives, like median bikeways, bike lanes between the busways and the mixed traffic lanes, traffic calmed service roads that allow through traffic for bikes only, bike lanes between better regulated parked vehicles and sidewalks, and regular European style bike lanes, to see what works. We just are not sure yet. Delhi HSBC and Ahmedabad BRTS should open later this year, so we will have something to look at. Walter -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of eric.britton Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 2:23 AM To: WorldCityBike@yahoogroups.com Cc: Sustran Resource Centre Subject: [sustran] City Bikes in developing world cities Dear Sir, I am Sudhir, a researcher on sustainability issues from India. I have been following the mails in world city bike forum. I would like to indicate the issue pertaining to cyclists in developing countries like India. We don't have any infrastructure like cycletracks in cities like Bangalore. Let us consider the Bangalore Case. * As per my estimate Bangalore loses out nearly 208 million Rs per day due to congestion. * Cycling as a mode of transport is virtually non existent in Bangalore (less than 2%). * Bangalore has nearly 477853 cycles which contribute only 15% operational trips. * We don't have promoters of cycling mode and thus no public outcry. * We even don't have proper design code for the Cycle Tracks (only code available is IRC-11-1962) Sir, can we also concentrate upon developing countries in order to gain momentum. With Kind Regards Sudhir Project Engineer, Highways Div. SECON Pvt Ltd. 147, 7B Road, EPIP, Whitefield, Bangalore 560066 Ph: 080-41197778 (413) -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From anupam9gupta at gmail.com Sat Feb 2 23:23:26 2008 From: anupam9gupta at gmail.com (Anupam Gupta) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:53:26 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: any details on Nano and safety and environmental regs? In-Reply-To: <20080201030137.2D75D2D321@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> References: <20080201030137.2D75D2D321@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> Message-ID: <003801c865a7$3018bad0$904a3070$@com> Hi Walter - What Ratan Tata has been saying is that the Nano meets Indian emission standards, Bharat III (which are supposed to be similar to Euro III). Nano's engine can be upgraded to make it Euro IV compliant as well, whenever the need arises. Hope this helps. Regards Anupam From schipper at wri.org Sat Feb 2 23:53:11 2008 From: schipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 09:53:11 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: any details on Nano and safety and environmental regs? References: <20080201030137.2D75D2D321@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> <003801c865a7$3018bad0$904a3070$@com> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C01220AF3@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> And what our friend Mike Walsh said in the NY Times was he doubted the exhaust systems would tay in order under the torture of Indian streets... Lee Schipper EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org >From Oct 1, Visiting Scholar, UC Transportation Center UC Berkeley, CA www.uctc.net 510 642 6889 202 262 7476 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Anupam Gupta Sent: Sat 2/2/2008 6:23 AM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: any details on Nano and safety and environmental regs? Hi Walter - What Ratan Tata has been saying is that the Nano meets Indian emission standards, Bharat III (which are supposed to be similar to Euro III). Nano's engine can be upgraded to make it Euro IV compliant as well, whenever the need arises. Hope this helps. Regards Anupam -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From edelman at greenidea.eu Sun Feb 3 18:22:42 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 10:22:42 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: [carfree_network] Mapping Carfree Casualties In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47A587E2.5040304@greenidea.eu> Colin Leath wrote: > I've put together a demo site > about how we might be able to easily keep a map/ construct a memorial > of people hit by motor vehicles. > > I doubt the way I've set things up there is the best way to do it. But > I think this is something that needs to happen. Imagine if all the > worldwide fatalities and injuries were mapped and labelled and just > kept piling up--and if you could zoom in on any area and find the > stories about the people killed or injured there. > > The casualty reported on the biketour list > > -- in addition to happening to walk by two hit pedestrians laying in > the street in two days -- a year of reading about pedestrian deaths in > the local paper and doing nothing about them -- and the violence we > all live in being near car drivers -- and being hit myself -- pushed > me to do this. > > Please help me figure out something more workable than the current > approach. > > Peace, > Colin > > -- > Contribute to the blog, calendar, & maps at > SD/TJ Design, Plant, Harvest: > nourishing our shared space, caring for the commons. > http://sdtjdph.blogspot.com/ Global Ghost Bike (and "Ghost Shoes") is a great idea, and perhaps the Automobile-Advertising Industrial Googolplex should pay for it. After all, they actually TALK about road safety more than carfree people do. It is a safety thing, rather than - directly at least - a carfree thing. The AAIG kills more people via emissions, doesn't it? Maybe so, but specific places where people die of diseases related to emissions seems like a difficult thing to mark. On the other hand - as I understand it - most developed countries - at least - have casualty maps for urban and perhaps all areas. (These are of course about all deaths and injuries, on foot or a bike, in cars or trucks....and I think that even when a driver is at fault, a death is a death is a death) So the data is there. But can we get it? Is it always public and ideally also easily importable to a user-friendly website or... ... I think that a key element in where the information is posted. For a long time now in many countries there are permanent memorials - candles, plaques and such - to show where people died in road crashes (whether or not they were in the car) though of course I realise that ghost bikes are specifically about bikes. Having these and ghost bikes/shoes everywhere is great, but some other suggestions are: * On highways on signs that generally show traffic conditions ahead. Some huge automobile companies - I am not naming names - have some stated goal of zero deaths (as does Sweden, I think) so why not something like the following in ALL countries: ---------------------- "Deaths on the Roads" Today's Count: 2,345* Year to Date: 985,254* sponsored by (------) which has a goal of zero deaths" * estimated ---------------------- ONE signal would go to all these signs, all around the world, but of course the problem is that some, many or most developing countries do not collect the data, don't have enough people online to distribute the count or mapping that way - of course newspapers or magazines are just as good, will SAY they don't have the resources to support it... and of course will be reluctant to show any of it. How to overcome that last point in regards to governments? I am not sure. But for private companies their refusal to support a project like this could be turned into very bad publicity for them, non? (This sign could also be used for something more "positive" like info about passenger throughput on various adjacent traffic lanes or corridors... e.g. BRT/buses/light-rail and private automobiles in order to show everyone how much more efficient the former are at throughputting people) * Getting a wee bit further away from the main point, as head-up displays are starting to... appear in automobiles, how about if these display images of "road-crashed people" who died nearby - displayed while the car is not moving? And - if the car is also "GPS'd" - how about if every time the car goes over the speed limit an image is projected of their child or mother shaming them? * Perhaps advertising companies should be required to display this info along with the automobile ads? Should ads post fuel consumption, carbon production AND something like "About 3,000 people die on the roads each day. Please slow down and buckle up." * Finally, I also suggested to someone from a World Carfree Network organisation... that the automobile producers which sponsor some of their projects - or which they cooperate with in image-making - should have a bell at each manufacturing facility, which they will rrring every time someone dies on the roads (3,000 times a day could create a noise problem, ja?) or at least every time someone dies in or because of a product made there. This will remind the owners, managers, workers and some nearby townspeople of their complicity. A variant would be that the Minister of Transport (or King/Queen if a monarchy) does this in the capital. Enough. The sun is shining. Time to go out with the dogs... let's see if we can make it across the street. - T -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. From anumita at cseindia.org Fri Feb 1 23:10:37 2008 From: anumita at cseindia.org (Anumita) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 19:40:37 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: any details on Nano and safety and environmental regs? In-Reply-To: <47A2CC87.8020901@igc.org> References: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C012A19CA@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Message-ID: <47A375B5.30852.1C6537E@localhost> -- As Michael has pointed out, all car companies have to get their vehicles type approved to meet the emissions standards to sell in the Indian market. In 2010 about 16 cities are expected to move to Euro IV and the rest of the country to Euro III. (Currently Euo III in 11 cities and Euro II in the rest of the country). So all cars including Nano will have to comply with these standards. But, -- in-use compliance regulations are nearly non-existent ? there are no effective checks on in-use performance over life time. -- Sarath, you have made an important point. Operational costs will be a decisive factor in influencing the shift from MCs to cheap cars -- and these costs for MCs are a lot lower than cars. Also the point that other car companies are making today is that a drop in the car prices by nearly $2500 from the current cheapest model (Maruti 800), can net in a very new class of buyers. On the whole car sales are expected to increase just not in big cities but also in smaller cities. Even rural and suburban market for cars is expected to increase quite significantly ? which means the total car stock will increase rapidly in the years to come. --- The message is clear ? we need stringent emissions standard to leapfrog vehicle technologies and fuels; in-use compliance regulations to keep them reasonably clean during their useful life; fuel economy regulations to reduce energy impacts; and, at the same time urgent implementation of rapid solutions for mass mobility and congestion. -- There is no scope of Either/Or for any of us today...... Anumita On 1 Feb 2008 at 2:38, Michael P. Walsh wrote: > > My understanding is that it will comply with the emissions requirements at Type Approval (a > prototype well maintained vehicle) but I am skeptical that it will comply in use over its lifetime. But > of course no one has any actual data at this point. > > Best regards, > > Mike > > > Lee Schipper wrote: > Mike, can you help. > I was interviewed by CNN Business but no response yet.. > > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > and > Visiting Scholar > UC Transportation Center > Berkeley CA USA www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > +1 510 642 6889 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of Walter Hook > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:58 PM > To: 'Sarath Guttikunda'; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Cc: 'Anumita'; Rhys Thom > Subject: [sustran] any details on Nano and safety and environmental > regs? > > I was "mis" quoted in the Daily News saying the Nano does not meet > Western emissions, road worthyness and safety standards. What i said > was that it "might" not but that i didn't know. > > Does anybody know for sure? Would it be in compliance with euro IV or > EPA standards, etc? > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of Sarath Guttikunda > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 6:41 AM > To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > Cc: Anumita; RThom@wri.org > Subject: [sustran] Re: [SUSTRAN] Re: Tata Nano: > CriminalizingMobilityorMobilizing Crime > > Dear Anumita, > > Thanks for your elaborate email.. > > My 2 cents, > > In an interview with Ratan Tata, he mentioned that goal behind making > Nano is family safety and he is inspired to making Nano after seeing a > family on a motorcycle. I have seen some arguments in papers and on net, > that the largest jump in buying a Nano will come from the MC group. This > I doubt. > > A simple math between MCs and Cars, assuming all gasoline (priced at > Rs.50per liter) and a family traveling 30 km per day. MCs give 60 km per > lit, which translates to Rs.0.83 per km or Rs.7800 per year per family. > If the family jumps to a Nano, assuming a 20 km per lit, math translates > to Rs.2.50per km or Rs.23,400 per year per family. One year = 6 working > days per week and 52 weeks. > > On an average, a middle class family with MC in India earns between 10K > to 15K. Even if we take the higher end of 15K, this accounts to 4% for > MCs and 13% for cars on fuel expenses per year. That is a big change. > > This does not account for the price difference (~Rs.40K for MC and > Rs.125Kfor Nano) and interests they will incur for 5 or 10 years of > loans, insurance, and maintenance. And lets not forget Parking - even if > it is cheap compared to the developed nations. > > There is no doubt that with growing demand for cars, Nano will be a hit > (similar to Maruti 800 when it arrived in the 80's) - given the > production levels are as high as the current demand. What we saw on TV > is a glimpse of the car which is still a year away or less from hitting > the roads. A good public awareness campaign with numbers will do good - > explaining what people will end up spending - both in terms on money and > time (leading to more congestion). > > MCs are by far the largest number in the country and will remain so for > the coming decades. On the other side, a good price differential and > extra tax for cars, Nano could shift some people away from buying SUVs, > who knows :-) Cars are not bad, but more cars on road make it worse. > > Similarly, there are some discussions on how Nano will cut into the 3Ws > and Taxi market, which is also stretching the limits. In the cities like > Delhi, Mumbai, Hyderabad, or Bangalore, parking has already become a > problem, and more cars will not make it easy. Under a parking cap, 3Ws > and Taxis still rule the short trip version. > > As we argue on cars and MCs, as Anumita pointed out, we have to also > understand the lack of "public transport" in place to take the current > travel loads. And also the share of diesel on road. We are basically > stuck at "Access to Mobility". > > with regards, > Sarath > > -- > Sarath Guttikunda > New Delhi, India > Phone: +91 9891 315 946 > Email: sguttikunda@gmail.com > > On Jan 25, 2008 11:56 AM, Anumita wrote: > > > Lee, > > I guess all of us are saying the same thing. Clearly, this fuss over > Nano is just not about Nano but about cars, all cars - big, small, > cheap, expensive cars. > Nano has > given us the chance to focus the public debate on congestion, oil > guzzling and emissions and make these concerns more visible. This > debate is certainly very nuanced. > > -- Look at the Indian paradox today - super cheap cars like Nano will > expand the bottom of the market pyramid when rising incomes have > already triggered a steady drift to bigger cars and SUVs. So the ends > are stretched both ways. Car companies will continue to compete on > costs in a price sensitive market. With frugal engineering, weak > regulations, fiscal largess to the car companies, even for their > production facilities, cars can come very cheap. Question is how do we > > > > deal with it? > > -- Interestingly, in a car to car comparison nano or any small car can > > > > offer fuel savings - certainly more sensible than the bigger, more > powerful, high performance cars that are about several hundreds per > 1000 people in many industrialized cities. > But the new investments in the Indian auto sector will have to be > linked with stringent emissions regulations, in-use compliance > requirements and efficiency standards. > > - But the reason why we are debating Nano, and, are so concerned > today, is because we still have the time, the chance and the > alternatives to plan mobility systems differently in Indian cities. We > > > > already have a reasonable strength in the usage of public transport at > > > > least in big cities, NMT and walking -- that if protected and improved > > > > can help us to take an alternative route and avoid huge emissions and > oil guzzling in Indian cities. Building alternatives at this stage of > motorisation is critical > -- cars may drive growth and aspirations, but they can never meet the > commuting needs of the urban majority. > > -- But this is where we draw a blank. As in the rest of the world we > have also realized that to a very great extent mobility management > hinges on fiscal measures (in addition to providing good public > transport). But the wisdom of taxing a product for the vice and not > just for their values is still quite alien to the Indian and many > other Asian fiscal regimes. The governments are strongly entrenched in > > > > command and control strategies. They are still not looking at fiscal > measures that can change consumer and commuter choices, push cities to > > > > make better choices on transportation options, create alternative > sources of revenue and broaden the revenue base to fund mobility and > technology transition. But this will require a different kind of > maturity and sophistication in our fiscal regimen. > > -- Greening of taxes will be an even bigger battle in the present > context of governance and public awareness. Aspirational vote bank > never says tax our cars and the governance systems in cities are not > strong enough to force it down. > Therefore, just the opposite is happening today. The city governments > penalize buses by taxing them higher per passenger they carry than > cars that carry lot less and use up more road space etc. > > -- In Delhi, we are amidst discussions on fuel taxes, parking charges, > > > > road taxes etc. > But resistance is unbelievable. Even if matters move in Delhi it will > still be a drop in the ocean. The policy mandate on transportation and > > > > mobility matters is so decentralized that it is the ability of all > individual cities that will ultimately decide the progress on this > front. National policies like JNURM etc are still not strong enough > framework to create a template for the cities. Smaller cities are > going to be even more badly hit by small car explosion as public > policies on public transport are virtually non existent for these > cities - just because these cities do not have high density travel > corridors to justify investment in 'profitable' public transport. > This means millions are left to organise their own mobility and will > happily graduate from bicycles and cycle rickshaws to cheap cars. > > -- We need to understand that when it comes to practical planning for > mobility management in our cities the basic policy tools, databases, > policy indicators of sustainability etc do not even exist to enable > city level planning and action. Even public voice remains dormant. > This is where we need to move fast to see some real action. Otherwise, > > > > good ideas will remain good ideas while cars take over. > > Anumita > > ****************************** > > ************************** > Anumita Roychowdhury > Associate Director,Research and Advocacy Centre for Science and > Environment 41, Tughlakabad Institutional Area New Delhi 110062 > Tel: 91-11-29955124, 29955125, 29956394 > Fax: 91-11-29955879, 29955870 > Email: anumita@cseindia.org > Website: www.cseindia.org > *************************************************** > > > On 24 Jan 2008 at 10:40, Lee Schipper wrote: > > > Anumita, what do you say? Sounds like we're between a piece of > rubber and a spare tyre > > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org > and Visiting Scholar UC Transportation Center Berkeley CA USA > www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > +1 510 642 6889 > Cell +1 202 262 7476 > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > ******************************************************** Anumita Roychowdhury Associate Director,Research and Advocacy Centre for Science and Environment 41, Tughlakabad Institutional Area New Delhi 110062 Tel: 91-11-29955124, 29955125, 29956394 Fax: 91-11-29955879, 29955870 Email: anumita@cseindia.org Website: www.cseindia.org *************************************************** From au.ables at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 19:43:22 2008 From: au.ables at gmail.com (Au ABLES) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 18:43:22 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Sustainable Urban Mobility in Asia (SUMA) News Digest 01 February 2008 Message-ID: Sustainable Urban Mobility in Asia (SUMA) News Digest Vol. 5 Issue 2 01 February 2008 SUMA News Digest is a free weekly e-mail publication that features news, information, and events related to sustainable urban transportation in Asia. To contribute articles, news items, or event announcements for the next issue, send an email with the complete details and URL source to suma-news-owner@googlegroups.com with subject "FOR SUMA NEWS". mailto:suma-news-owner@googlegroups.com?subject=FOR_SUMA_NEWS. Past issues from Feb 2007 are found at http://groups.google.com/group/suma-news *** VISIT THE SUMA PAGES: http://www.cleanairnet.org/suma *** * * * * * HEADLINES GLOBAL: London, Paris Win 2008 Sustainable Transport Award Finalists were nominated for the 4th annual international honor for enhancing the sustainability and livability of their community or region by adopting innovative transportation strategies that lessen the impact of climate change by reducing transportation greenhouse and air pollution emissions. http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72335.html KARACHI, PAKISTAN: Plan for conversion of rickshaws announced 24 January 2008 dawn.com.pk The Sindh government has chalked out a strategy to encourage drivers/owners to switch over to CNG-fitted rickshaws instead of two-stroke vehicles, which were a major cause of air and noise pollution. http://www.dawn.com.pk/2008/01/25/local17.htm KARACHI, PAKISTAN: SHC wants two-stroke rickshaws phased out 23 January 2008 dawn.com A division bench of the Sindh High Court again directed the traffic police on Wednesday to ensure that motor rickshaws plying were fitted with silencers and that two-stroke rickshaws were phased out to reduce air and noise pollution. http://www.dawn.com/2008/01/24/local11.htm BEIJING, PR CHINA: Beijing to cut traffic by half for Games 23 January 2008 chinadaily.com.cn Beijing will take more than half of its 3 million cars off the roads for August's Olympic Games in a bid to guarantee air quality and improve traffic flow. More than 1,000 new vehicles hit the roads every day in the Chinese capital and officials estimate that there will be 3.3 million by the time the Games open on August 8. During a four-day test last August, 1.3 million vehicles were taken off the roads on alternate days depending on whether their number plates ended with even or odd numbers. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/olympics/2008-01/23/content_6415489.htm XIAMEN, PR CHINA: Xiamen Encourages Citizens to Use High-Efficient and Low-Emitting Cars 17 January 2008 vecc-sepa.org.cn Xiamen City plans to release the special energy saving regulation. According to the regulation, there are some incentive instruments to retail, use high-efficient and low-emitting cars and other transport options. http://www.vecc-sepa.org.cn/news/news_detail.jsp?newsid=22326 HARBIN, PR CHINA: Vehicles Will be Phased Out If Failing the Emission Standard Several Times 16 January 2008 vecc-sepa.org.cn Environment department has signed a responsibility memorandum with 34 public transport lines in Harbin. According to the agreement, vehicles will be phased out if failing the emission standard several times. http://www.vecc-sepa.org.cn/news/news_detail.jsp?newsid=22306 For more news on China see also Ms. XiaoJia Bao's CAI-Asia Project e-newsletter, http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-69329.html More air quality and sustainable mobility news at http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/propertyvalue-14783.html * * * * * INTERESTING FINDS Strategies for Anhangaba? & Quadra das Artes: Revitalising S?o P?ulo City Centre: June 2007 (Estrat?gias para o Anhangaba? e Quadra das Artes: Revitalizando o Centro da Cidade de S?o Paulo, Junho de 2007) The Institute for Transportation and Development Policy, City of S?o Paulo, and Gehl Architects have released a strategic document on revitalizing the city center of Sao Paolo by introducing pedestrian-friendly design elements. The document uses the compare-and-contrast method and provides useful illustrations to supplement the text. http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72363.html The environmental impact of India's Nano car 11 January 2008, New Scientist Environment blog Catherine Brahic, online environment reporter for New Scientist, blogs about India's cheapest car - whether it conforms to European emission standards, its fuel efficiency, and the effect it will have on emisions. http://www.newscientist.com/blog/environment/2008/01/environmental-impact-of-indias-nano-car.html * * * * * MARK YOUR CALENDARS Better Air Quality (BAQ) Workshop 2008 12-14 November 2008 Bangkok, Thailand Call for Abstracts ongoing http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72312.html The Art Center Summit 2008: Systems, Cities, and Sustainable Mobility 5-7 February 2008 Pasadena, California, USA http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72347.html JARI Indonesia Round Table 2008 14 February 2008 Borobudur Hotel Jakarta Deadline of registration: 4 Feb http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72316.html Third Regional Environmentally Sustainable Transport (EST) Forum 17-19 Mar 2008 Singapore http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72269.html International Conference on Funding Transportation Infrastructure & la Dixi?me Journ?e Transport 19-20 Jun 2008 Paris, France http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72268.html 4th International Symposium on Travel Demand Management 16-18 Jul 2008 Vienna, Austria http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72218.html Towards Carfree Cities VIII 16-20 Jun 2008 Portland, Oregon, USA http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72243.html See more SUT events http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/propertyvalue-27089.html See CAI-Asia's events calendar http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/propertyvalue-13577.html * * * * THANKS * * * * Thank you XiaoJia Bao, Keiko Hirota, Mohammad Aqib and Bert Fabian for your inputs; and to Jaja Panopio and Mike Co for uploading the articles. - Aurora Fe Ables, Editor, SUMA News; Transport Specialist, CAI-Asia Center * * * ABOUT SUMA * * * The Sustainable Urban Mobility in Asia (SUMA) program of the Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities ( www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia), Asian Development Bank ( www.adb.org), EMBARQ-the World Resources Institute Center for Sustainable Transport ( http://embarq.wri.org ), GTZ Sustainable Urban Transport Project ( www.sutp.org), Interface for Cycling Expertise (www.cycling.nl), Institute for Transportation and Development Policy ( www.itdp.org), and United Nations Center for Regional Development (www.uncrd.or.jp/est) is made possible through the generous support of the Swedish International Development Cooperation Agency ( www.sida.se). SUMA works with Asian countries and cities to strengthen then formulation and implementation of sustainable urban transportation policies, specifically in (i) improving urban air quality by adopting AQM planning in sustainable transport policies and promoting public transportation, (ii) improving road safety by encouraging non-motorized transport and public transport, and (iii) reducing transport's contribution to climate change by adopting a co-benefits approach with urban air quality management. -- best regards, Au Aurora Fe Ables, P.Chem Transport Specialist Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities Center t. +63(2)395-2843 and 45 f. +63(2)395-2846 m. +63(919)237-4338 au.ables[at]cai-asia.org au.ables[at]gmail.com skype au.ables www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Mon Feb 4 17:56:45 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 09:56:45 +0100 Subject: [sustran] The Potential of Bike-sharing in Lesser-developed Countries Message-ID: <006401c8670b$e0b52c10$a21f8430$@britton@ecoplan.org> Thanks to Paul DeMaio, taken from http://bike-sharing.blogspot.com/ The Potential of Bike-sharing in Lesser-developed Countries http://bp0.blogger.com/_-OPNDCJtErg/R6Pk4NCnk_I/AAAAAAAAAI8/Nywvxc3erpk/s400 /World+Map.gif What is the potential of bike-sharing in lesser-developed countries? In many ways, the lesser- and greater-developed countries could approach bike-sharing in the same way. Most American cities as well as many European cities who are examining or have implemented bike-sharing programs have or had low bike mode share before bike-sharing. A sample of a few cities, such as Washington, D.C. with a bike commute mode share of about 1.75%, Seattle at 1.5%, and San Francisco at 0.95%, all have desires for bike-sharing. Many European cities with bike-sharing programs also had low bike mode shares before they launched, including Paris (1.6%) and Lyon (less than 1%). I would hazard a guess that lesser-developed countries would benefit equally from bike-sharing programs as long as equal public commitments were made into improving cycle facilities as has generally been the case in Europe. Bike-sharing has drawn huge media attention in locations where it has been implemented and substantial interest elsewhere from what I've heard and seen. A recent advocacy effort in Philadelphia drew 400 citizens interested in the possibilities of a bike-sharing program in their city. The mayor was so impressed with the turn-out that a serious effort is now underway to examine the issue. Bike-sharing has created a virtuous cycle (pardon the pun) in increasing private bike use too. As bike-sharing develops a constituency user group, maybe then citizens in cities of lesser-developed countries would have an attachment to the program and to an improvement in their city's bike facilities. A local advocacy group need not be present to usher in a bike-sharing program but rather a mayor, elected official, government employee, or simply an interested citizen with a vision. This has been the case with Paris Mayor Delanoe and I'm seeing it happen in the U.S. too. I imagine the same could be true of bike-sharing programs to be implemented in lesser-developed countries. It's the old chicken and egg issue, with which came first, the cyclist or the cycle track? With bike-sharing maybe it doesn't matter as it creates both. From carlosfpardo at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 22:44:42 2008 From: carlosfpardo at gmail.com (Carlosfelipe Pardo) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 08:44:42 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Module 1e (Raising Public Awareness about Sustainable Urban Transport) translated to Indonesian Message-ID: <47A716CA.5010506@gmail.com> GTZ-SUTP today released the Indonesian version of the "Module 1e: Raising Public Awareness about Sustainable Urban Transport" the Indonesian version is titled "Modul 1e: Meningkatkan Kesadaran Masyarakat akan Transportasi Perkotaan Berkelanjutaan". The module was originally authored by Carlos F. Pardo. Registered SUTP users can download the document from the link provided below . Unregistered users can click in the second link below to register (free of charge) and then proceed to download. Module 1e Indonesian: http://www.sutp.org/component/option,com_docman/task,doc_details/gid,405/lang,uk/ Registration: http://www.sutp.org/component/option,com_comprofiler/task,registers/lang,uk/ -- SUTP team From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Tue Feb 5 00:26:48 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 16:26:48 +0100 Subject: [sustran] FW: Invitation to view syed saiful's Picasa Web Album - Free bicycle training at Dhanmondi, Dhaka Message-ID: <017401c86742$7e548570$7afd9050$@britton@ecoplan.org> From: syed saiful [mailto:shovan1209@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, 4 February 2008 16:19 To: postmaster@ecoplan.org Subject: Invitation to view syed saiful's Picasa Web Album - Free bicycle training at Dhanmondi, Dhaka You are invited to view syed saiful's photo album: Free bicycle training at Dhanmondi, Dhaka Free bicycle training at Dhanmondi, Dhaka dhanmondi, dhaka, bangladesh - Jan 29, 2008 by syed saiful For free bicycle training at Dhanmondi, Dhaka Please contract with us Syed Saiful Alam WBB Trust House # 49, Road # 4/A Dhanmondi, Dhaka 1209 Bangladesh View Album Play slideshow Message from syed saiful: When most people think of bicycling, they think of riding as a kid or with their own children. But bicycling is so much more than fun. It's an activity that directly addresses front-page societal challenges like road congestion, pollution, obesity, and other weight-related diseases. If you are having problems viewing this email, copy and paste the following into your browser: http://picasaweb.google.com/shovan1209/FreeBicycleTrainingAtDhanmondiDhaka To share your photos or receive notification when your friends share photos, get your own free Picasa Web Albums account. From laura.lauramachado at gmail.com Tue Feb 5 00:41:05 2008 From: laura.lauramachado at gmail.com (Laura) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 13:41:05 -0200 Subject: [sustran] Re: FW: Invitation to view syed saiful's Picasa Web Album - Free bicycle training at Dhanmondi, Dhaka In-Reply-To: <-3294569863062070322@unknownmsgid> References: <-3294569863062070322@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <47b030540802040741u5e00c66w593adf465e87fbe0@mail.gmail.com> Look this: Forum for public bike: >>>>>>>>> http://bicipublica.org/ * 1**as Jornadas de la Bicicleta P?blica* Experiencias, propuestas y debate sobre la implantaci?n de la bicicleta p?blica en Espa?a Palacio de Congresos de Catalunya ? Barcelona, 29 y 30 de noviembre de 2007 From sutp at sutp.org Tue Feb 5 15:43:37 2008 From: sutp at sutp.org (SUTP Team) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 13:43:37 +0700 Subject: [sustran] Chinese translation of module 5d: CDM and the transport sector Message-ID: <47A80599.4000503@sutp.org> GTZ SUTP has published the Chinese translation of Module 5d: The CDM in the Transport Sector. The module was released in 2007 and written by Dr J?rg Gr?tter from gr?tter consulting. It discusses the relevance of the CDM in transport projects, and provides a case study of Bogot?'s TransMilenio CDM methodology, the first approved CDM methodology for the transport sector. The module will also be translated to Spanish this year. The module can be downloaded from http://www.sutp.org/content/view/1056/40/lang,uk/ From edelman at greenidea.eu Wed Feb 6 02:36:43 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 18:36:43 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Ex-chairman of Shell: We need to produce more with less energy Message-ID: <47A89EAB.2010508@greenidea.eu> TO this week's "Viewpoint" on the BBC World Service website, I wrote a response which is the second from the bottom on the web link but also at the bottom of this email.... Society depends on more for less - Sir Mark Moody-Stuart *If the world is to end the threat from climate change, we need to produce more with less energy, says Mark Moody Stuart. In this week's Green Room, he outlines his vision that will help society fulfil this goal. * To address the climate challenge we need to reduce the carbon content of our energy by at least half. But at the same time we must learn to generate a unit of GDP for about half the energy which we use at present. Energy efficiency and carbon content of energy are equally important, but they require different approaches to achieve them. I am a great believer in both the power of consumer choice and the market. As we come to understand the consequences, we do tend to make greener choices. But most of us will only make those choices if they deliver the convenience and utility to which we are used or aspire; and if they do not cost more (or we can afford the luxury of choice). Consumer opinion and choice is important, but it will not do the trick on its own. Its importance is in encouraging companies to supply the market in more climate friendly ways, and most importantly in encouraging governments (for whom consumers vote) to take the steps needed. * 'Bitter experience' * So what of the market? It is an unsurpassed mechanism for allocating resources to deliver better things. Through competition, technologies are optimised or discarded, opening the field for creativity and choice. I believe in the power and value of markets. But like most things, they have a failing. Without regulation to channel their power, markets will not deliver things which are of no immediate benefit to the individual making his or her choice, even though they may be beneficial to society. Without regulation, markets would not have delivered unleaded gasoline, catalytic converters on the exhausts of cars or seatbelts and airbags, nor clean air to London after the killer smogs of the 1950s. In New Delhi, regulation forced three-wheeled vehicles, taxis and buses to switch to clean gas fuel. The initial complaints were great, but everyone, including the taxi drivers, blessed the result. These regulations were not cost free, but everyone benefited. Regulation was needed to channel the power of the market, but regulatory frameworks have to be simple and practical. The gut opposition of business people to regulation comes from bitter experience of regulations which don't just frame the market but bind it hand and foot and tell us how things must be done. This kills markets and takes the fun and variety out of life. * Carbon price * So what are the frameworks we need? For carbon content, we need a mechanism which forces energy supplies in the right direction. This means putting a price on carbon for major producers (and large-scale users) of energy through a carbon cap and trade system, such as we already have in Europe. Unfortunately, this system has been initially subject to government and business special pleading and gaming. Or it means a carbon tax. Both are complex and should only be applied to major producers or users. Trading encourages carbon-avoiding investment where it has the most impact. It also allows the transfer, through market mechanisms, of financial resources to China and India. I do not think we will get a more global agreement without such transfer. Taxation has the great merit that it provides a clear floor price of carbon. So for me the preferred option is a combination - a tax, but with the ability to reduce it through trading, getting the best combination of a floor price and efficiency of investment. Most people think that a price of something around 40 dollars a tonne of carbon dioxide (CO2) to producers would do the trick. * Market decides * Before you panic about the cost to you and industrial transport, that is only about 5p a litre on fuel - within the noise of oil price variations. On the other hand, for efficiency we need regulatory frameworks - very tough efficiency standards on buildings, on lighting and on personal transport. That means banning the manufacture or import of old fashioned light bulbs. Technically, this actually just means putting a standard on the efficiency of lights so that markets decide whether the best answer is compact fluorescent lights or the newer LEDs - old incandescents would never meet such a hurdle. It means very tough standards on buildings. This is already having an effect in London where to achieve highly valuable planning permission, developments are already achieving energy efficiency which we thought we would not achieve for a decade or more. And for personal transportation? That means banning "gas guzzlers" and steadily increasing the total efficiency of any vehicle sold. You can buy the roomiest, vroomiest car, as long as it meets the efficiency standard. My wife and I have driven a hybrid since 2001 and it is a beautiful and comfortable piece of engineering, silent and will do 100mph (we tried it, but not in England!). That may not be the best technology - the market will find out. But we must constrain the market in an efficiency framework. To achieve the same through taxation would mean fuel taxes at levels which would play havoc with industry, countryside dwellers and the poor who need transport. /Sir Mark Moody-Stuart is non-executive chairman of Anglo American, [ex-chairman of Shell] and is a member of the UN Global Compact and chairman of the Global Compact Foundation" / /***/ I WROTE the following response: "Making transport more efficient starts with making cities much, much more dense, walkable and attractive, as well as reducing the need and desire to leave the city. The second step is creating transportation vehicles and infrastructure which provide the access not possible with walking alone, and this means more cycling, plus improving efficiency of the already super-efficient public transportation. Sir Mark mentions nothing about these things. Personal cars, in Sir Mark's vision, could still be the "roomiest" and "vroomiest car" as long as they meet an efficiency standard (which he says elsewhere would be 35 mpg). Even if every car is individually cleaner, his vision just means more cars, many used by one person at a time, as now: A waste of energy, time and space." -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. From edelman at greenidea.eu Wed Feb 6 02:36:43 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 18:36:43 +0100 Subject: [sustran] [NewMobilityCafe] Ex-chairman of Shell: We need to produce more with less energy Message-ID: <47A89EAB.2010508@greenidea.eu> TO this week's "Viewpoint" on the BBC World Service website: "Making transport more efficient starts with making cities much, much more dense, walkable and attractive, as well as reducing the need and desire to leave the city. The second step is creating transportation vehicles and infrastructure which provide the access not possible with walking alone, and this means more cycling, plus improving efficiency of the already super-efficient public transportation. Sir Mark mentions nothing about these things. Personal cars, in Sir Mark's vision, could still be the "roomiest" and "vroomiest car" as long as they meet an efficiency standard (which he says elsewhere would be 35 mpg). Even if every car is individually cleaner, his vision just means more cars, many used by one person at a time, as now: A waste of energy, time and space." -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Society depends on more for less - Sir Mark Moody-Stuart *If the world is to end the threat from climate change, we need to produce more with less energy, says Mark Moody Stuart. In this week's Green Room, he outlines his vision that will help society fulfil this goal. * To address the climate challenge we need to reduce the carbon content of our energy by at least half. But at the same time we must learn to generate a unit of GDP for about half the energy which we use at present. Energy efficiency and carbon content of energy are equally important, but they require different approaches to achieve them. I am a great believer in both the power of consumer choice and the market. As we come to understand the consequences, we do tend to make greener choices. But most of us will only make those choices if they deliver the convenience and utility to which we are used or aspire; and if they do not cost more (or we can afford the luxury of choice). Consumer opinion and choice is important, but it will not do the trick on its own. Its importance is in encouraging companies to supply the market in more climate friendly ways, and most importantly in encouraging governments (for whom consumers vote) to take the steps needed. * 'Bitter experience' * So what of the market? It is an unsurpassed mechanism for allocating resources to deliver better things. Through competition, technologies are optimised or discarded, opening the field for creativity and choice. I believe in the power and value of markets. But like most things, they have a failing. Without regulation to channel their power, markets will not deliver things which are of no immediate benefit to the individual making his or her choice, even though they may be beneficial to society. Without regulation, markets would not have delivered unleaded gasoline, catalytic converters on the exhausts of cars or seatbelts and airbags, nor clean air to London after the killer smogs of the 1950s. In New Delhi, regulation forced three-wheeled vehicles, taxis and buses to switch to clean gas fuel. The initial complaints were great, but everyone, including the taxi drivers, blessed the result. These regulations were not cost free, but everyone benefited. Regulation was needed to channel the power of the market, but regulatory frameworks have to be simple and practical. The gut opposition of business people to regulation comes from bitter experience of regulations which don't just frame the market but bind it hand and foot and tell us how things must be done. This kills markets and takes the fun and variety out of life. * Carbon price * So what are the frameworks we need? For carbon content, we need a mechanism which forces energy supplies in the right direction. This means putting a price on carbon for major producers (and large-scale users) of energy through a carbon cap and trade system, such as we already have in Europe. Unfortunately, this system has been initially subject to government and business special pleading and gaming. Or it means a carbon tax. Both are complex and should only be applied to major producers or users. Trading encourages carbon-avoiding investment where it has the most impact. It also allows the transfer, through market mechanisms, of financial resources to China and India. I do not think we will get a more global agreement without such transfer. Taxation has the great merit that it provides a clear floor price of carbon. So for me the preferred option is a combination - a tax, but with the ability to reduce it through trading, getting the best combination of a floor price and efficiency of investment. Most people think that a price of something around 40 dollars a tonne of carbon dioxide (CO2) to producers would do the trick. * Market decides * Before you panic about the cost to you and industrial transport, that is only about 5p a litre on fuel - within the noise of oil price variations. On the other hand, for efficiency we need regulatory frameworks - very tough efficiency standards on buildings, on lighting and on personal transport. That means banning the manufacture or import of old fashioned light bulbs. Technically, this actually just means putting a standard on the efficiency of lights so that markets decide whether the best answer is compact fluorescent lights or the newer LEDs - old incandescents would never meet such a hurdle. It means very tough standards on buildings. This is already having an effect in London where to achieve highly valuable planning permission, developments are already achieving energy efficiency which we thought we would not achieve for a decade or more. And for personal transportation? That means banning "gas guzzlers" and steadily increasing the total efficiency of any vehicle sold. You can buy the roomiest, vroomiest car, as long as it meets the efficiency standard. My wife and I have driven a hybrid since 2001 and it is a beautiful and comfortable piece of engineering, silent and will do 100mph (we tried it, but not in England!). That may not be the best technology - the market will find out. But we must constrain the market in an efficiency framework. To achieve the same through taxation would mean fuel taxes at levels which would play havoc with industry, countryside dwellers and the poor who need transport. /Sir Mark Moody-Stuart is non-executive chairman of Anglo American, [ex-chairman of Shell] and is a member of the UN Global Compact and chairman of the Global Compact Foundation" / From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Thu Feb 7 16:08:16 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 08:08:16 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Strengthening Bicycle and Rickshaw Industries Message-ID: <004f01c86958$489c4ae0$d9d4e0a0$@britton@ecoplan.org> An interesting initiative of our new CfM member "Institute for Transportation and Development Policy" (ITDP) (http://www.itdp-europe.org/): http://www.itdp.org/index.php/program_areas/detail/strengthening_bicycle_and _rickshaw_industries/ Strengthening Bicycle and Rickshaw Industries In developing countries, good-quality, modern bicycles and bicycle rickshaws are often not available. Despite a demand for better vehicles, technological innovation is stalled because investors do not see potential for sufficient profit. ITDP fills this gap by working closely with private industry partners in the US, Asia and Africa to improve vehicle designs and make them accessible to the public. ITDP implements projects in partnership with established and emerging bicycle and rickshaw industries to: * engineer, manufacture and market more appropriate, efficient vehicles * establish vibrant, indigenous businesses in underserved areas * overcome barriers to individual ownership through credit and training * advocate for bike- and rickshaw-friendly trade and development policies ITDP?s rickshaw modernization project in India developed design innovations that led to the creation of a bicycle rickshaw that is lighter, more comfortable, and easier to handle. These improvements increased demand for travel in the modernized rickshaw, reducing air pollution in many of India?s most populated cities. Today, over 300,000 modernized bicycle rickshaws are operating in nine major cities. Through a unique partnership with US bicycle companies, ITDP?s California Bike Project works to increase access to good-quality bicycles in major African cities. Over 5,000 high-quality California Bikes, designed specifically to address the basic mobility needs of lower-income communities, have been distributed by our coalition of independent African bicycle dealers. From carlosfpardo at gmail.com Thu Feb 7 22:52:30 2008 From: carlosfpardo at gmail.com (Carlosfelipe Pardo) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:52:30 -0500 Subject: [sustran] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bogot=E1=27s_Carfree_day_2008_=28or_taxi?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_day_2008=2C_or_bicycle_day_2008=2C_or_motorcycle_day_2008?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=29?= Message-ID: <47AB0D1E.4060506@gmail.com> Even with the new mayor, Bogot? can't escape the mandate of having the 10th citiwide Carfree day today (thank God). When coming out this morning to see what had changed, I noticed the following: - There were no cars (duh... except for those of diplomats and high-level government officials...not a very coherent message) - There were too many motorcycles, taxis and traditional buses (see a sample: http://flickr.com/photos/carlosfpardo/2247897607/ ) - There were lots of bicycles... mainly young people (which gives us more hope), plus the ones who, like me, anyway take the bicycle to work every day... a sample of this as well: http://flickr.com/photos/carlosfpardo/2248690270/ - Those who are not wearing a helmet are taken to a police officer and scolded at for a short while, plus they have to sign their name in a booklet (I still don't understand the signature part)... they are not fined or taken anywhere, they're just told "remember to wear a helmet". I also wrote a small column in the local newspaper, and comments in the website have been: "lovely article" and "you crazy extremist"... Interesting day... I hope there is more to tell after the day is over. -- Carlosfelipe Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 Bogot? D.C., Colombia Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 carlos.pardo@gtz.de www.gtz.de (carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org ) From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Fri Feb 8 18:51:32 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 10:51:32 +0100 Subject: [sustran] TransMetro Guatemala: 2 Message-ID: <002b01c86a38$32e54c20$98afe460$@britton@ecoplan.org> On Behalf Of Dr. Rainer Rothfuss Sent: Friday, 8 February 2008 10:37 Dear members of this forum, I'd like to send you the brief introduction of Antonio Forno who joined our Online Expert Forum in order to represent the Cities for Mobility member city of Guatemala with its interesting BRT system TransMetro: "My name is Antonio Forno. I work in La Municipalidad de Guatemala in the department of Mobilidad Urbana. I am the department director?s assistant, Mr. Fabricio Gonzales, and I will be coordinating everything that has to do with Cities for Mobility. We would like you to know about the latest outcomes and news of our project: Transmetro. The project was nominated for the Sustainable Award, and won a honorific mention for beeing the first rapid-massive bus system [in Central America]. http://transmetro.muniguate.com/article196.html It has provided more than 50 million people with it?s efficient service and has been filled with positive comments." CONGRATULATIONS FROM CITIES FOR MOBILITY FOR THE 2008 SUSTAINABLE TRANSPOR AWARD!!! We are looking foward to learing more from you positive experience with TransMetro and we'd be glad to integrate you in the project proposal "Comparison and Integration of Bus Rapid Transit and Light Rail Train Systems as Means of Efficient Urban Mass Transport" which has been developed during our last CfM World Congress in June 2007. Best regards, Rainer ----------------------- You are welcome to subscribe to the Cities for Mobility Online Expert Forum: Cities-for-Mobility-subscribe@yahoogroups.com ----------------------- Coordination Office Cities for Mobility From bruun at seas.upenn.edu Sat Feb 9 07:55:06 2008 From: bruun at seas.upenn.edu (bruun at seas.upenn.edu) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 17:55:06 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Prof. Jason Chang and mode split data Message-ID: <20080208175506.ihcomab204ocswog@webmail.seas.upenn.edu> Hi, everyone: A couple of years ago Prof. Chang, then of the National Technical University of Taiwan, mentioned that he was writing an article about increasing the mode split of transit in Taiwan. I would very much like to see if this article was ever completed. Does anyone know how to reach him? Also, I am very interested in any data motorcycle mode split and trip length for any cities where someone might have some data. This includes for both personal and freight use. Any leads would be most appreciated. Eric Bruun Philadelphia USA ----- Forwarded message from ericbruun@earthlink.net ----- Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 17:41:27 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Bruun Reply-To: Eric Bruun Subject: Re: [sustran] Taipei as a before and after study? To: "S.K. Jason CHANG" Cc: bruun@seas.upenn.edu Dear Prof. Chang: Did you ever complete the paper you mentioned about increasing the mode split for transit in Taipei? I am doing some research on the impact on motorcycle use when transit is dramatically improved. Thanks in advance. Eric Bruun -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Bruun > Sent: Aug 24, 2005 7:04 PM > To: "S.K. Jason CHANG" > Subject: Re: [sustran] Taipei as a before and after study? > > Dear Jason > > Could I have a copy of the papoer you mentioned below? > > Thanks in advance. > > Eric Bruun > Philadelphia, PA > USA > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Bruun > Sent: Jul 25, 2005 6:09 PM > To: "S.K. Jason CHANG" , Asia and the Pacific sustainable > transport > Cc: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com, Kyoto2020@yahoogroups.com, > carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [sustran] Taipei as a before and after study? > > Jason > > I would love to see the paper, but let me make a suggestion. > > Rather than receive a lot of individual requests for the paper, you > might try posting it for downloading > on a website. Then people can retrieve it without bothering you. > > Thanks, > Eric Bruun > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "S.K. Jason CHANG" > Sent: Jul 25, 2005 1:26 PM > To: Eric Bruun , Asia and the Pacific sustainable > transport > Cc: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com, Kyoto2020@yahoogroups.com, > carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [sustran] Taipei as a before and after study? > > Dear Colleagues, > > As an advisor to mayor of Taipei in the past ten Years, I will be > pleased to provide more information related to Taipei. Mayors of Taipei > have accepted our suggestion of seting up a sustainable development > goal that 60% of commuting trips will be contributed by public > transport (metro, BRT, and conventional bus) by the end of 2006! I am > drafting a paper to introduce the transition from a car-oriented city > into a transit-oriented city in Taipei! Please do let me know if you > would like to see the paper. > > Jason > -- > ??????? ????? Dr. Shyue Koong (Jason) CHANG > Professor, Department of Civil Engineering > National Taiwan University > Taipei, 10617, Taiwan > voice:+886-935178543 fax:+886-2236369990 > skchang@ntu.edu.tw skchang2020@yahoo.com.tw > > > Quoting Eric Bruun : > >> Perhaps Taipei would yield some interesting information about the >> effects of investment in public transportation. It has invested >> heavily in grade-separated public transportation over the last 15 >> years. On the other hand, economic growth is probably so fast that it >> overtakes a lot of the congestion relief one might otherwise expect. >> Eric Bruun >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Carlos F. Pardo" >> Sent: Jul 20, 2005 11:33 PM >> To: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com, sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org, >> Kyoto2020@yahoogroups.com, carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: [sustran] Re: WorldTransport Forum Economics of Traffic >> Congestion and TDM >> >> Au, >> >> It?s a rather difficult question to ask in Asian cities. If you are >> looking for a test of this hypothesis, I think we?d have to wait for a >> couple of years to see any real change in economic trends, since major >> sustainable transport projects in Asia have been developed in the near >> past. I think Singapore could be one good example of a somewhat >> integrated approach to urban reform, though not the best. Maybe >> Seoul?s recent transformation can give you an idea, but it?s also >> quite recent. >> >> On the other hand, maybe the UK links are good, but using them for >> Asia would not be so coherent. In Latin America, I know there is a >> study about TransMilenio?s impact on land revenue in Bogot? (by >> Felipe Targa et al), and this could give you a good idea of what >> you?re looking for. Also, maybe Curitiba?s example (which is one of >> the best in terms of what you?re looking for) could have some >> studies. It?s a shame that most of the time, when you get a nice >> intervention like this you don?t necessarily find the data of >> before-and-after. >> >> I don?t know if anyone else has suggestions. I will keep looking >> but I can?t think of any other example with specific data that?s been >> widely diffused, let alone in Asia. >> >> Best regards, >> >> GTZ Sustainable Urban Transport Project (SUTP) >> >> Room 0942, Transport Division, UN-ESCAP >> >> ESCAP UN Building >> >> Rajadamnern Nok Rd. >> >> Bangkok 10200, Thailand >> >> CARLOS.PARDO@SUTP.ORG >> >> WWW.SUTP.ORG >> >> ___________________________________ >> >> Disclaimer: If you have received an email from an unknown sutp.org >> account or with a strange attachment, please do not open it. We do not >> send emails from any of the following addresses: webmaster@sutp.org, >> support@sutp.org, service@sutp.org, register@sutp.org, mail@sutp.org, >> info@sutp.org, administrator@sutp.org, postmaster@sutp.org. >> >> ------------------------- >> >> ON BEHALF OF aables@adb.org >> SENT: 20 July, 2005 7:46 PM >> TO: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; >> carfree_network@lists.riseup.net; Kyoto2020@yahoogroups.com >> SUBJECT: WorldTransport Forum Economics of Traffic Congestion and TDM >> >> >> Dear all, >> Are you aware of studies/ figures on the economic costs of traffic >> congestion and the economic benefits from transport demand management >> measures, especially in Asia? We'd like to have some city data >> preferably based on actual examples to test the hypothesis that urban >> centers that invested on developing their transportation systems >> integrated to their urbanization development plans are doing better >> than others. >> The Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities (CAI-Asia) has done a >> preliminary assessment of the resources on sustainable transport in >> Asia though the pilot project Partnership for Sustainable Urban >> Transport in Asia (PSUTA) (www.cleanairnet.org/psuta). The review >> showed that resources that deal with transport and economics, >> especially in Asia, are either not as many as we'd hope or are not >> readily available. >> We would appreciate receiving studies/ links/ referrals. >> Thanks and regards, >> Au >> >> Aurora Fe Ables >> Transport Researcher >> Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities (CAI-Asia) >> Asian Development Bank >> Tel (632) 632-4444 ext. 70820 >> Fax (632) 636-2198 >> Email aables@adb.org >> http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia >> >> www.adb.org >> The New Mobility/World Transport Agenda >> Consult at:http://NewMobiity.org[2] >> To post message to group: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com >> To subscribe: WorldTransport-subscribe@yahoogroups.com >> To unsubscribe: WorldTransport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> ------------------------- >> >> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS >> >> * Visit your group "WorldTransport[3]" on the web. >> >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> WorldTransport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com[4] >> >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to theYahoo! Terms of >> Service[5]. >> >> ------------------------- >> >> >> >> ?s??: >> ------ >> [2] http://NewMobiity.org >> [3] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldTransport >> [4] >> mailto:WorldTransport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe >> [5] http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> > > ----- End forwarded message ----- From guillen at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp Sat Feb 9 15:46:07 2008 From: guillen at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (guillen at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 15:46:07 +0900 (JST) Subject: [sustran] Re: for Au Ables of CAI In-Reply-To: <20080209030116.AC9BC2C5BC@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> References: <20080209030116.AC9BC2C5BC@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> Message-ID: <1432.130.158.101.148.1202539567.squirrel@infoshako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Hi Au, I am not sure if this will help but I think there are various research initiatives on this aspect here in Japan eg. verifying quantitative effect on the effect of promoting public transport using marketing tools.Moreover, I tend to agree with Carlos' comments on economic trends esp. in the case of developing nations in Asi. Anyway, useful link would be those of Springer's journal Transportation esp. the topic on mobility management on its latest issue. If I remember it right, there are also some research transportation journal on articles which try to quantify the behavioral effect eg. car use to public transport using various measures. I also found the good practice inventory of IGES (Institute for Global Environmental Strategies) http://www.iges.or.jp/en/database/index.htmlinteresting. Hope this helps. Best regards, Danielle Marie Danielle V.Guillen Urban Transportation Lab. Graduate School of Systems & Information Engineering University of Tsukuba, Tsukuba City, Japan >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "Carlos F. Pardo" >>> Sent: Jul 20, 2005 11:33 PM >>> To: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com, sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org, >>> Kyoto2020@yahoogroups.com, carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com >>> Subject: [sustran] Re: WorldTransport Forum Economics of Traffic >>> Congestion and TDM >>> >>> Au, >>> >>> It?s a rather difficult question to ask in Asian cities. If you are >>> looking for a test of this hypothesis, I think we?d have to wait for a >>> couple of years to see any real change in economic trends, since major >>> sustainable transport projects in Asia have been developed in the near >>> past. I think Singapore could be one good example of a somewhat >>> integrated approach to urban reform, though not the best. Maybe >>> Seoul?s recent transformation can give you an idea, but it?s also >>> quite recent. >>> >>> On the other hand, maybe the UK links are good, but using them for >>> Asia would not be so coherent. In Latin America, I know there is a >>> study about TransMilenio?s impact on land revenue in Bogot? (by >>> Felipe Targa et al), and this could give you a good idea of what >>> you?re looking for. Also, maybe Curitiba?s example (which is one of >>> the best in terms of what you?re looking for) could have some >>> studies. It?s a shame that most of the time, when you get a nice >>> intervention like this you don?t necessarily find the data of >>> before-and-after. >>> >>> I don?t know if anyone else has suggestions. I will keep looking >>> but I can?t think of any other example with specific data that?s been >>> widely diffused, let alone in Asia. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> GTZ Sustainable Urban Transport Project (SUTP) >>> >>> Room 0942, Transport Division, UN-ESCAP >>> >>> ESCAP UN Building >>> >>> Rajadamnern Nok Rd. >>> >>> Bangkok 10200, Thailand >>> >>> CARLOS.PARDO@SUTP.ORG >>> >>> WWW.SUTP.ORG >>> >>> ___________________________________ >>> >>> Disclaimer: If you have received an email from an unknown sutp.org >>> account or with a strange attachment, please do not open it. We do not >>> send emails from any of the following addresses: webmaster@sutp.org, >>> support@sutp.org, service@sutp.org, register@sutp.org, mail@sutp.org, >>> info@sutp.org, administrator@sutp.org, postmaster@sutp.org. >>> >>> ------------------------- >>> >>> ON BEHALF OF aables@adb.org >>> SENT: 20 July, 2005 7:46 PM >>> TO: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; >>> carfree_network@lists.riseup.net; Kyoto2020@yahoogroups.com >>> SUBJECT: WorldTransport Forum Economics of Traffic Congestion and TDM >>> >>> >>> Dear all, >>> Are you aware of studies/ figures on the economic costs of traffic >>> congestion and the economic benefits from transport demand management >>> measures, especially in Asia? We'd like to have some city data >>> preferably based on actual examples to test the hypothesis that urban >>> centers that invested on developing their transportation systems >>> integrated to their urbanization development plans are doing better >>> than others. >>> The Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities (CAI-Asia) has done a >>> preliminary assessment of the resources on sustainable transport in >>> Asia though the pilot project Partnership for Sustainable Urban >>> Transport in Asia (PSUTA) (www.cleanairnet.org/psuta). The review >>> showed that resources that deal with transport and economics, >>> especially in Asia, are either not as many as we'd hope or are not >>> readily available. >>> We would appreciate receiving studies/ links/ referrals. >>> Thanks and regards, >>> Au >>> >>> Aurora Fe Ables >>> Transport Researcher >>> Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities (CAI-Asia) >>> Asian Development Bank >>> Tel (632) 632-4444 ext. 70820 >>> Fax (632) 636-2198 >>> Email aables@adb.org >>> http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia >>> >>> www.adb.org >>> The New Mobility/World Transport Agenda >>> Consult at:http://NewMobiity.org[2] >>> To post message to group: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com >>> To subscribe: WorldTransport-subscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> To unsubscribe: WorldTransport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> >>> ------------------------- >>> >>> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS >>> >>> * Visit your group "WorldTransport[3]" on the web. >>> >>> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >>> WorldTransport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com[4] >>> >>> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to theYahoo! Terms of >>> Service[5]. >>> >>> ------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> ?s??: >>> ------ >>> [2] http://NewMobiity.org >>> [3] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldTransport >>> [4] >>> mailto:WorldTransport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe >>> [5] http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >>> >> >> > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > > > ------------------------------ > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > End of Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 54, Issue 8 > ********************************************** > From edelman at greenidea.eu Sat Feb 9 19:15:19 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 11:15:19 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Support Congestion Pricing in NYC! Message-ID: <47AD7D37.6030701@greenidea.eu> This came to me from Straphangers Campaign in NYC (see their link below). NYC could probably rival if not top London as the highest profile city with congestion pricing, so, just as a good practice example - and there are many other reasons - it is clear to me that it is important for people from outside the NYC area to support congestion pricing there. (Just please make sure you make it clear if you are not from NY) To the pre-written letter, I am going to edit in some stuff about how ripe many parts of NYC are for improving walking conditions even further (e.g. with carfree areas) and perhaps something about how NYC itself has a larger population than the country I live in - CZ - which puts the programme in perspective. - T **** Dear Rider, After months of research, community hearings and deliberation, the independent traffic commission created by the state legislature has proposed an answer to our overcrowded buses, subways and roads. Their modified congestion pricing plan now goes to Albany for approval. We urge you to tell your state legislators to pass congestion pricing. It will raise hundreds of millions for transit improvements for New York City. You can send a message by going to: http://www.campaignforNewYork.org There's no time to waste! Tell Albany to support this sensible, effective fix to New York's traffic and transit dilemma. It's estimated that one million new residents will move to New York City by 2030. Let's make sure our roads and mass transit systems are ready. Sincerely, Gene Russianoff ============================== NYPIRG Straphangers Campaign One Click to a Better Commute - http://www.straphangers.org This e-mail has been sent by NYPIRG (9 Murray St Fl 3, New York NY 10007) since you are subscribed to the Straphangers.Org Network List. If you wish to unsubscribe or modify your bulletin options, please visit http://www.straphangers.org/lists/unsub.htm You are subscribed as: edelman@greenidea.eu -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Sat Feb 9 20:47:59 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:47:59 +0100 Subject: [sustran] PSB - Public Shared City Bicycles in Sustran region Message-ID: <00bd01c86b11$a10785e0$e31691a0$@britton@ecoplan.org> Dear Sustran friends, Please forgive me this impersonal note, but I hope that you will find it sufficiently interesting to justify the fact that I have not put it into a personal letter since it is an outreach for information on transport in the region and time presses. Let's get on with it. There is an important and fast growing phenomenon when it comes to new ideas for transport in cities, called public or city bikes. Once we spotted it as a high growth phenomenon with real potential for wide spread development, we decided to spend a couple of years doing what we can to stimulate and support these kinds of projects in cities around the world, because we consider them not only good ideas in themselves but because we see them as true weapons to more toward move sustainable cities and a more sustainable planet. We think of it as a kind of micro "Kyoto Protocol" which no one will argue against, but just decide to get on with it, and if they do because it's a great thing to do for their city. And the planet. The full background on our project can be seen if you click to http://www.citybike.newmobility.org so I will not take any more of your time with this, other than to point you to the attached note should you be interested to know more about our broader sustainability interests and work intentions for the year ahead. My question to you is this: Are there cities, projects, people, groups who are active in or knowledgable about similar projects, plans or discussions in the region? If you know them, it would be very kind indeed if you could drop me a line so that we can follow up. And if you wish to be kept in the loop on this in the future, please let me know and I will copy my correspondence on it to you as well. With kind thanks and all good wishes, Eric Britton New Mobility Partnerships Europe: 8/10 rue Joseph Bara, 75006 Paris, France. T: +331 4326 1323 USA: 9440 Readcrest Dr. Los Angeles, CA 90210. T: +1 310 601-8468 E. eric.britton@newmobility.org. E2. fekbritton@gmail.com Skype: newmobility The Commons: A wide open, world-wide open society forum concerned with improving our understanding and control of technology as it impacts on people in our daily lives. Seeking out and pioneering new transformational concepts for concerned citizens, activists, community groups, entrepreneurs and business. Supporting local government as that closest to the people and the problems. Increasing the uncomfort zone for hesitant administrators and politicians. And through our long term world-wide collaborative efforts, energy and personal choices, placing them and ourselves firmly on the path to a more sustainable and more just world. (For more go to www.2008.ecoplan.org ) From litman at Islandnet.com Sun Feb 10 06:27:28 2008 From: litman at Islandnet.com (litman at Islandnet.com) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 13:27:28 -0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: for Au Ables of CAI References: <1432.130.158.101.148.1202539567.squirrel@infoshako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <47ae1ac0-11c0a@helpdesk.islandnet.com> Also see the Victoria Transport Policy Institute's Online TDM Encyclopedia (http://www.vtpi.org/tdm ), which describes various strategies for encouraging use of alternative modes, particularly the "Transit Encouragement" chapter (http://www.vtpi.org/tdm/tdm112.htm ). Best wishes, -Todd Litman > > Hi Au, > > I am not sure if this will help but I think there are various research > initiatives on this aspect here in Japan eg. verifying quantitative effect > on the effect of promoting public transport using marketing > tools.Moreover, I tend to agree with Carlos' comments on economic trends > esp. in the case of developing nations in Asi. Anyway, useful link would > be those of Springer's journal Transportation esp. the topic on mobility > management on its latest issue. If I remember it right, there are also > some research transportation journal on articles which try to quantify > the behavioral effect eg. car use to public transport using various > measures. I also found the good practice inventory of IGES (Institute for > Global Environmental Strategies) > http://www.iges.or.jp/en/database/index.htmlinteresting. > > Hope this helps. > > Best regards, > Danielle > > Marie Danielle V.Guillen > Urban Transportation Lab. > Graduate School of Systems & Information Engineering > University of Tsukuba, Tsukuba City, Japan > > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: "Carlos F. Pardo" > >>> Sent: Jul 20, 2005 11:33 PM > >>> To: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com, sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org, > >>> Kyoto2020@yahoogroups.com, carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com > >>> Subject: [sustran] Re: WorldTransport Forum Economics of Traffic > >>> Congestion and TDM > >>> > >>> Au, > >>> > >>> It?s a rather difficult question to ask in Asian cities. If you are > >>> looking for a test of this hypothesis, I think we?d have to wait for a > >>> couple of years to see any real change in economic trends, since major > >>> sustainable transport projects in Asia have been developed in the near > >>> past. I think Singapore could be one good example of a somewhat > >>> integrated approach to urban reform, though not the best. Maybe > >>> Seoul?s recent transformation can give you an idea, but it?s also > >>> quite recent. > >>> > >>> On the other hand, maybe the UK links are good, but using them for > >>> Asia would not be so coherent. In Latin America, I know there is a > >>> study about TransMilenio?s impact on land revenue in Bogot? (by > >>> Felipe Targa et al), and this could give you a good idea of what > >>> you?re looking for. Also, maybe Curitiba?s example (which is one of > >>> the best in terms of what you?re looking for) could have some > >>> studies. It?s a shame that most of the time, when you get a nice > >>> intervention like this you don?t necessarily find the data of > >>> before-and-after. > >>> > >>> I don?t know if anyone else has suggestions. I will keep looking > >>> but I can?t think of any other example with specific data that?s been > >>> widely diffused, let alone in Asia. > >>> > >>> Best regards, > >>> > >>> GTZ Sustainable Urban Transport Project (SUTP) > >>> > >>> Room 0942, Transport Division, UN-ESCAP > >>> > >>> ESCAP UN Building > >>> > >>> Rajadamnern Nok Rd. > >>> > >>> Bangkok 10200, Thailand > >>> > >>> CARLOS.PARDO@SUTP.ORG > >>> > >>> WWW.SUTP.ORG > >>> > >>> ___________________________________ > >>> > >>> Disclaimer: If you have received an email from an unknown sutp.org > >>> account or with a strange attachment, please do not open it. We do not > >>> send emails from any of the following addresses: webmaster@sutp.org, > >>> support@sutp.org, service@sutp.org, register@sutp.org, mail@sutp.org, > >>> info@sutp.org, administrator@sutp.org, postmaster@sutp.org. > >>> > >>> ------------------------- > >>> > >>> ON BEHALF OF aables@adb.org > >>> SENT: 20 July, 2005 7:46 PM > >>> TO: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; > >>> carfree_network@lists.riseup.net; Kyoto2020@yahoogroups.com > >>> SUBJECT: WorldTransport Forum Economics of Traffic Congestion and TDM > >>> > >>> > >>> Dear all, > >>> Are you aware of studies/ figures on the economic costs of traffic > >>> congestion and the economic benefits from transport demand management > >>> measures, especially in Asia? We'd like to have some city data > >>> preferably based on actual examples to test the hypothesis that urban > >>> centers that invested on developing their transportation systems > >>> integrated to their urbanization development plans are doing better > >>> than others. > >>> The Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities (CAI-Asia) has done a > >>> preliminary assessment of the resources on sustainable transport in > >>> Asia though the pilot project Partnership for Sustainable Urban > >>> Transport in Asia (PSUTA) (www.cleanairnet.org/psuta). The review > >>> showed that resources that deal with transport and economics, > >>> especially in Asia, are either not as many as we'd hope or are not > >>> readily available. > >>> We would appreciate receiving studies/ links/ referrals. > >>> Thanks and regards, > >>> Au > >>> > >>> Aurora Fe Ables > >>> Transport Researcher > >>> Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities (CAI-Asia) > >>> Asian Development Bank > >>> Tel (632) 632-4444 ext. 70820 > >>> Fax (632) 636-2198 > >>> Email aables@adb.org > >>> http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia > >>> > >>> www.adb.org > >>> The New Mobility/World Transport Agenda > >>> Consult at:http://NewMobiity.org[2] > >>> To post message to group: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com > >>> To subscribe: WorldTransport-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>> To unsubscribe: WorldTransport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>> > >>> ------------------------- > >>> > >>> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > >>> > >>> * Visit your group "WorldTransport[3]" on the web. > >>> > >>> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >>> WorldTransport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com[4] > >>> > >>> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to theYahoo! Terms of > >>> Service[5]. > >>> > >>> ------------------------- > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ?s??: > >>> ------ > >>> [2] http://NewMobiity.org > >>> [3] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldTransport > >>> [4] > >>> mailto:WorldTransport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe > >>> [5] http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > > > End of Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 54, Issue 8 > > ********************************************** > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > From au.ables at gmail.com Mon Feb 11 18:36:35 2008 From: au.ables at gmail.com (Au ABLES) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:36:35 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Sustainable Urban Mobility in Asia (SUMA) News Digest 11 February 2008 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sustainable Urban Mobility in Asia (SUMA) News Digest Vol. 5 Issue 3 11 February 2008 SUMA News Digest is a free weekly e-mail publication that features news, information, and events related to sustainable urban transportation in Asia. To contribute articles, news items, or event announcements for the next issue, send an email with the complete details and URL source to suma-news-owner@googlegroups.com with subject "FOR SUMA NEWS". mailto:suma-news-owner@googlegroups.com?subject=FOR_SUMA_NEWS< suma-news-owner@googlegroups.com?subject=FOR_SUMA_NEWS>. Past issues from Feb 2007 are found at http://groups.google.com/group/suma-news *** VISIT THE SUMA PAGES: http://www.cleanairnet.org/suma *** * * * * * PROJECT NEWS Travel Demand Management (TDM) - 2-day workshop/training course for policymakers, city ? and transport planners Singapore, 19-20 March 2008 Following the 3rd Regional EST Forum being held in Singapore during March 17-19 2008, GTZ and LTA Academy (supported by UNCRD, and as part of the SUMA project) will jointly organize a 2-day training course on Travel Demand Management (TDM) and related measures in Singapore on 19-20 March, 2008. The event will be hosted by LTA Academy of Singapore. The training will cover various TDM measures such as congestion pricing, parking schemes, fuel pricing, taxes and charges (vehicle ownership and registration management), repricing mobility services, physical restraint measures, land use measures and public transport complementary measures. http://www.sutp.org/content/view/1058/1/lang,uk/ * * * * * HEADLINES INDIA: India Wants Better Public Transport to Cut Emission Levels 08 February 2008 By Subramaniam Sharma, Bloomberg India is working on a policy that will encourage the biggest cities and towns to build up their public transport systems as an alternative to cars to curb emissions in the nation's polluted urban areas. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601091&sid=a1k8FgeMEJA8&refer=india MUMBAI, INDIA: To decongest streets, govt plans steeper parking charges 10 February 2008 at 11:24:40 by Dhaval Kulkarni, Bloomberg.com With cheaper car variants set to swamp the automobile market, the government is bracing to contain the spin-off, congestion of roads, with a steep hike in parking fees in cities like Mumbai. http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/To-decongest-streets-govt-plans-steeper-parking-charges/271412/ CEBU CITY, PHILIPPINES: Rapid bus system for Cebu eyed "P100-M cost is nothing compared to benefits to be derived" ? Mayor Osme?a 07 February 2008 by Mars W. Mosqueda Jr., Manila Bulletin The Cebu City Government plans to start the selected implementation of the bus rapid transit system aimed at easing the traffic congestion in major areas of the city. http://www.mb.com.ph/issues/2008/02/07/PROV20080207116397.html PHILIPPINES: New LTO chief vows to stop registration of smuggled vehicles 03 February 2008 The Daily Tribune Newly appointed Land Transportation Office (LTO) chief Alberto Suansing has said one of his first priorities is to put a stop to the registration of misdeclared imported motor vehicles and operation of colorum vehicles. http://www.tribune.net.ph/metro/20080203met6.html METRO MANILA, PHILIPPINES: MMDA launches tomorrow its 'Pink Line' project 03 February 2008 The Daily Tribune The Metropolitan Manila Development Authority (MMDA) will launch tomorrow, Feb. 4, its "Pink Line" project that serves as boundary markers between private and government property line in a bid to curb the unabated illegal parking and putting up of structures on the sidewalks and road right of ways. http://www.tribune.net.ph/metro/20080203met5.html More air quality and sustainable mobility news at http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/propertyvalue-14783.html * * * * * INTERESTING FINDS "Module 1e: Raising Public Awareness about Sustainable Urban Transport" translated to Indonesian 4 February 2008 GTZ-SUTP recently released the Indonesian version of the "Module 1e: Raising Public Awareness about Sustainable Urban Transport" the Indonesian version is titled "Modul 1e: Meningkatkan Kesadaran Masyarakat akan Transportasi Perkotaan Berkelanjutaan". The module was originally authored by Carlos F. Pardo. The module can be downloaded from the GTZ-SUTP website. http://www.sutp.org/content/view/1045/lang,uk/ VIDEO: 20060815 Newsnight - Public Services: Public Transport 1 This programme looks at Public Transport in the US, particularly the experience from the 'low car diet' experiment in Oregon. 15 August 2006 BBC Newsnight: Series of programmes examining 'The Best Public Services in The World' video is available from YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvJlq-EEufE * * * * * MARK YOUR CALENDARS Better Air Quality (BAQ) Workshop 2008 12-14 November 2008 Bangkok, Thailand Call for Abstracts ongoing http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72312.html JARI Indonesia Round Table 2008 14 February 2008 Borobudur Hotel Jakarta Deadline of registration: 4 Feb http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72316.html Travel Demand Management (TDM) - 2-day workshop/training course for policymakers, city ? and transport planners 19-20 March 2008 Singapore http://www.sutp.org/content/view/1058/1/lang,uk/ Third Regional Environmentally Sustainable Transport (EST) Forum 17-19 Mar 2008 Singapore http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72269.html International Conference on Funding Transportation Infrastructure & la Dixi?me Journ?e Transport 19-20 Jun 2008 Paris, France http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72268.html 4th International Symposium on Travel Demand Management 16-18 Jul 2008 Vienna, Austria http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72218.html Towards Carfree Cities VIII 16-20 Jun 2008 Portland, Oregon, USA http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72243.html See more SUT events http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/propertyvalue-27089.html See CAI-Asia's events calendar http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/propertyvalue-13577.html * * * * THANKS * * * * Thank you Glynda Bathan, Keiko Hirota, Carlos Felipe Pardo and Bert Fabian for your inputs; and to Jaja Panopio and Mike Co for uploading the articles. - Aurora Fe Ables, Editor, SUMA News; Transport Specialist, CAI-Asia Center * * * ABOUT SUMA * * * The Sustainable Urban Mobility in Asia (SUMA) program of the Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities ( www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia), Asian Development Bank ( www.adb.org), EMBARQ-the World Resources Institute Center for Sustainable Transport ( http://embarq.wri.org ), GTZ Sustainable Urban Transport Project ( www.sutp.org), Interface for Cycling Expertise (www.cycling.nl), Institute for Transportation and Development Policy ( www.itdp.org), and United Nations Center for Regional Development (www.uncrd.or.jp/est) is made possible through the generous support of the Swedish International Development Cooperation Agency ( www.sida.se). SUMA works with Asian countries and cities to strengthen then formulation and implementation of sustainable urban transportation policies, specifically in (i) improving urban air quality by adopting AQM planning in sustainable transport policies and promoting public transportation, (ii) improving road safety by encouraging non-motorized transport and public transport, and (iii) reducing transport's contribution to climate change by adopting a co-benefits approach with urban air quality management. -- best regards, Au Aurora Fe Ables, P.Chem Transport Specialist Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities Center t. +63(2)395-2843 and 45 f. +63(2)395-2846 m. +63(919)237-4338 au.ables[at]cai-asia.org au.ables[at]gmail.com skype au.ables www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia From edelman at greenidea.eu Mon Feb 11 23:36:29 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:36:29 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Indonesia to spray train roof riders Message-ID: <47B05D6D.7030409@greenidea.eu> Indonesia to spray train roof riders Reuters - Saturday, February 9 06:57 am JAKARTA (Reuters) - Indonesian commuters riding on the roofs of trains will be sprayed with coloured liquid so that security officers can identify and arrest them, a report said on Saturday.Electric trains linking the Indonesian capital and its neighbouring towns are packed with passengers during rush hours, with many sitting on the roofs due to a lack of space inside or to avoid paying. After several failed attempts to discourage roof riders over years, the state owned railway company PT Kereta Api will from next week douse them with a coloured liquid so that officers can identify them when they get off the train, the Jakarta Post said. "We will confiscate their IDs and give them a ticket," Kereta Api regional spokesman Akhmad Sujadi was quoted as saying. "We will send a copy of the ticket to their family, their local neighbourhood unit head, their employer, or, if they're students, their headmasters," added Sujadi, who described the move as "unique". Although illegal, roof riding is rampant due to a lack of efficient and affordable means of transport for commuters in the greater Jakarta area. At least 53 roof riders have been killed in the past two years, the Post said. (Reporting by Ahmad Pathoni, Editing by Alex Richardson) -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. From sutp at sutp.org Tue Feb 12 23:57:19 2008 From: sutp at sutp.org (Sustainable Urban Transport Project- SUTP) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:57:19 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Training Course on Travel Demand Management (TDM), Singapore, 19-20 March 2008 Message-ID: <47B1B3CF.2060005@sutp.org> *Training Course on Travel Demand Management (TDM), Singapore, 19-20 March 2008* Following the 3^rd Regional EST Forum being held in Singapore during March 17-19 2008, GTZ and LTA Academy (supported by UNCRD, and as part of the SUMA project) will jointly organize a 2-day training course on Travel Demand Management (TDM) and related measures in Singapore on 19-20 March, 2008. The event will be hosted by LTA Academy of Singapore. The training will cover various TDM measures such as congestion pricing, parking schemes, fuel pricing, taxes and charges (vehicle ownership and registration management), repricing mobility services, physical restraint measures, land use measures and public transport complementary measures. Resource persons for the course will include Mr Michael Replogle (Environmental Defense, USA), Prof Gopinath Menon (Singapore), Mr Manfred Breithaupt (GTZ, Germany), Mr Chow Kuang Loh (LTA Academy, Singapore) and Prof. Paul Barter (NUS Singapore). There will be a half-day tour through Singapore?s TDM and public transport facilities on 19 March 2008 morning^ as a part of Regional EST Forum to which the participation is free of charge. Expected participants to the course are policymakers, planners and engineers from Asian cities or other interested parties. There are only 35 vacancies for the course, which will be filled up as registrations are received. *_The registration deadline is 28 Feb 2008_*. Course details are posted and updated in http://www.sutp.org/content/view/1058/1/lang,uk/ . If further information is required, please email sutp@sutp.org . */Please visit http://www.sutp.org/content/view/1058/1/lang,uk/ for full information on program and other details of this course. Please register by sending an email with your contact details (full name, position, nationality, phone number, email) to carlos.pardo@sutp.org copied to santhosh.kodukula@sutp.org . /* From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Wed Feb 13 16:18:57 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:18:57 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Subir Roy: When will we ever learn? Message-ID: <002301c86e10$b5098050$1f1c80f0$@britton@ecoplan.org> Subir Roy: When will we ever learn? OFFBEAT Subir Roy / Bangalore February 13, 2008 The name Gore Vidal takes up more than two-thirds of the space on the cover of my old paperback collection of some of his essays. For good reason, as the same cover has New Statesman, a considerable thunderer in those days, describing Vidal as "America's finest essayist". In it is a little gem, his 1974 essay, "What Robert Moses Did to New York city", which educated Indians worried about the urban blight afflicting their country can read with benefit. Moses was parks commissioner for New York city for four decades up to the early sixties. Says Vidal, "After the Second World War he (Moses) built more than $2 billion worth of roads within the city. To do this he expropriated thousands of buildings, not all of them slums, and evicted tens of thousands of people who were left to fend for themselves. Moses's elevated highways shadowed and blighted whole neighbourhoods." Vidal recounts that Moses was not satisfied even after having done this as "he had yet another Dream: exodus from the city to the suburbs, but only by car, for there were to be no buses or trains on his expressways - just more and more highways for more and more cars, creating more and more traffic jams, while the once thriving railroads that had served the city went bankrupt." And as the "city became more desperate and congested," Moses's answer was "build more roads." Thirty years on, Vidal's final comment remains startlingly relevant. Moses was "a lover of the automobile: 'We live in a motorised civilisation.' Energy crisis (the 1973 first oil shock has just come) unliveable cities, pollution - none of these things has altered his proud dream." That dream is now rapidly declining in Europe, has started doing so in parts of America like California, but lives on in India. One of the most high-profile road projects in today's India, the Gurgaon expressway to Delhi, has just fully opened to a fascinating scenario. Several years late and finally built at a multiple of the original cost, traffic on it from day one has exceeded the original estimate of optimum levels. There are massive traffic jams at toll gates along the road as car owners queue up to pay up and then zoom into Delhi in record time. Once glitches about the odd amounts of toll payable (getting the change takes time) are straightened out and more motorists get pre-paid cards, these jams will ease but in just a few years the expressway itself will in all likelihood not be enough to carry all the cars, creating jams on it, not just at the gates but along the way. What is perhaps most telling is that there are too few crossovers. So people living on either side trying to do a quick dash are running into accidents. Now let us take a quick look at what is happening in London. Mayor Ken Livingstone wants a cycling transformation of the city. There are to be 12 cycling superhighways in and out of the heart of the city. A massive 400 million pounds is being devoted to promoting cycling. One of the elements is to have a free bike hire scheme, on the lines of the highly successful Velib scheme of Paris. The mayor wants an 80 per cent rise in cycling by 2010 in the city from 2000 levels. London Cycling Campaign, in conjunction with Transport for London, the official transport authority, have recently come out with the second edition of a cycling route map for London and its surroundings. (The first edition was out in 2002, indicating that trying to push the bike in the heart of London is not a new fad after Al Gore opened everyone's eyes to the "inconvenient truth".) The map is distributed free. The cycling movement in Britain is of course not confined to London and its mayor with unconventional ideas. The government has announced a 140 million pounds plan to promote cycling in entire England. Indian cities are routinely chopping down mature trees, which still have a long life ahead of them, to make way for road expansion. Some of the bigger ones have already built or are planning elevated expressways to ease traffic flow. These are being contemplated after flyovers or over bridges, often financed by the central urban renewal mission and which any Indian city worth its salt now has by the dozen, failed to reduce the traffic jams. It should be as clear as the bright daylight that the creator has blessed most of India with that flyovers, expressways, ground level or elevated, and widened roads not only do not solve traffic problems but make them worse. Yet we persist with the folly. subir.roy@bsmail.in From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Thu Feb 14 01:08:09 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:08:09 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Social Roads Message-ID: <012501c86e5a$a3d5d0f0$eb8172d0$@britton@ecoplan.org> -----Original Message----- From: Robert Bartlett [mailto:roadnotes@freenet.de] Sent: Wednesday, 13 February 2008 15:26 To: Gender and Transport Subject: [gatnet] Benin - Social Roads A few months ago I posted a message about describing the religious use of transport corridors. This topic now been included in a new photo-publication on roads in Benin. The document details are: "In African countries, often the accidents which occur on roads and railway lines have nothing to do with transport itself. They are much more related to the social and commercial activities which the local population carry out on or next to the transport facility. In rural areas inin sub-Saharan Africa the non-transport activities which are carried out on or next to the road/railway are easily apparent. For example, herds of cattle, goats or pigs graze next to the road and present a safety hazard. This document describes in words and pictures some of the "social uses" - including rural economic uses - which transport corridors are put to in Benin. The author of the document is Mr. Felicien Amakpe, who is a Benin citizen and an agronomics engineer. 38 pages including covers, 35+ photos. PDF A4 landscape layout. Version 1.03, January 2008 (English)". You're welcome to contact me for more details, availability etc. or visit the document's LULU page at http://www.lulu.com/content/2032437 Regards, REB From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Thu Feb 14 16:09:20 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:09:20 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: Social Roads In-Reply-To: <200802132120.m1DLK6uo060109@britton1.securesites.net> References: <012501c86e5a$a3d5d0f0$eb8172d0$@britton@ecoplan.org> <200802132120.m1DLK6uo060109@britton1.securesites.net> Message-ID: <003a01c86ed8$877740f0$9665c2d0$@britton@ecoplan.org> Good morning Bob. No, there was none. I was simply passing this fine piece over to the Sustran group. Where there has been some immediate follow-up from India. Best/Eric Technology. Economy. Society. Francis Eric Knight Britton Collaborative problem solving The New Mobility Agenda The Commons (Association 1901) 8/10, rue Joseph Bara 75006 Paris, France eric.britton@ecoplan.org fekbritton@gmail.com IM: Skype: newmobility www.newmobility.org tel: tel2: mobile: Skype ID: +331 4326 1323 +1 (310) 601-8468 +336 7321 5868 ericbritton From sudhir at secon.in Thu Feb 14 12:01:36 2008 From: sudhir at secon.in (Sudhir) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:31:36 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Social Roads Message-ID: <002001c86eb5$e9d2a050$d607a8c0@Domain.secon.com> Dear All, Would like to continue the discussion with emphasis on Indian Highways, As per India governmental report "A research project entitled 'Establishment of System for Identification and Rectification of Accident Black Spots' suggests that 78 percent of such accidents occur due to road user's behavior on road stretches" The main catch is what is exactly is the road user's behavior? We are converting the current full access 2 lane National highways to partially access controlled highways proclaiming 100Kmph design speed for the entire corridor. With the access restricted and motorist paying toll, he is willing to speed up to recover the money (toll) in an indirect way. The partial prevention of access to the local residing near the vicinity of the road from ages forces him to use it illegally (crossing the road not as per rule book) to cross or access the roads thus increasing the risks. Our roads are full of such diverse situations and behaviors. The Social, Commercial aspects of the people influenced by the Transport Corridor in the project influence area should be considered as the transport problem for better safety management. The Highway Design should ideally incorporate such behaviors with design providing forgiving road side environment with reduction in adverse social impact which we often neglect. Regards Sudhir Project Engineer, Highways Div. SECON Pvt Ltd. 147, 7B Road, EPIP, Whitefield, Bangalore 560066 Ph: 080-41197778 (413) From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Thu Feb 14 21:06:59 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 13:06:59 +0100 Subject: [sustran] program or incentives for carbon offsets for employees of cities??? Message-ID: <002201c86f02$1e079410$5a16bc30$@britton@ecoplan.org> Here is a good question that comes from several of our colleagues in New York, which I would like to share with you, both questions and answers as possible. Are you aware of any cities anywhere in the world that have created a program for or incentives for carbon offsets for employees of that city? Any references for us all on that? Contact points? Good question, eh? Terrific concept? We look forward to sharing your answers. Please address either to me privately or if you think it interesting for others, kindly post to the New Mobility Forum via NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com Eric Britton ____________________________ Eric Britton New Mobility Partnerships 8, rue Joseph Bara - 75006 Paris France T: 331 4326 1323 - www.newmobility.org From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Thu Feb 14 21:06:59 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 13:06:59 +0100 Subject: [sustran] [NewMobilityCafe] program or incentives for carbon offsets for employees of cities??? Message-ID: <002201c86f02$1e079410$5a16bc30$@britton@ecoplan.org> Here is a good question that comes from several of our colleagues in New York, which I would like to share with you, both questions and answers as possible. Are you aware of any cities anywhere in the world that have created a program for or incentives for carbon offsets for employees of that city? Any references for us all on that? Contact points? Good question, eh? Terrific concept? We look forward to sharing your answers. Please address either to me privately or if you think it interesting for others, kindly post to the New Mobility Forum via NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com Eric Britton ____________________________ Eric Britton New Mobility Partnerships 8, rue Joseph Bara - 75006 Paris France T: 331 4326 1323 - www.newmobility.org From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Thu Feb 14 23:37:47 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:37:47 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Social Roads Message-ID: <008501c86f17$2dee44e0$89cacea0$@britton@ecoplan.org> -----Original Message----- From: Peter Hotz [mailto:Peter.Hotz@metron.ch] Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 14:12 To: gatnet@dgroups.org; eric.britton@ecoplan.org Cc: roadnotes@freenet.de; sudhir@secon.in Subject: Antw: [gatnet] Social Roads ** Reply Requested When Convenient ** hello dears, we her in switzerland have estimated a very simple calculacion : 123 thats means when reducing speed for 1km/h , there is a reduction of 2 -3 % in the accidents rate( nombre and severity?) see also the discussion of vision zero best wishes Peter Hotz MSc ETHZ Peter Hotz Metron Verkehrsplanung AG Postfach 480 CH-5201 Brugg Tel +41(0)56 460 92 20 (direkt) Tel +41(0)56 460 91 11 (Zentrale) Fax +41(0)56 460 91 00 peter.hotz@metron.ch Metron Z?rich AG Schaffhauserstrasse 34 CH-8006 Z?rich Tel +41(0)44 363 19 68 Fax +41(0)56 460 91 00 privat: Kinkelstrasse 53 8006-Z?rich Tel +41(0)1 363 05 77 hotz68@bluewin.ch >>> eric.britton@ecoplan.org 14.02.08 7.27 >>> From: Sudhir [mailto:sudhir@secon.in] Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 04:02 To: Sustran Resource Centre Cc: roadnotes@freenet.de; eric.britton@ecoplan.org Subject: [sustran] Social Roads Dear All, Would like to continue the discussion with emphasis on Indian Highways, As per India governmental report "A research project entitled 'Establishment of System for Identification and Rectification of Accident Black Spots' suggests that 78 percent of such accidents occur due to road user's behavior on road stretches" The main catch is what is exactly is the road user's behavior? We are converting the current full access 2 lane National highways to partially access controlled highways proclaiming 100Kmph design speed for the entire corridor. With the access restricted and motorist paying toll, he is willing to speed up to recover the money (toll) in an indirect way. The partial prevention of access to the local residing near the vicinity of the road from ages forces him to use it illegally (crossing the road not as per rule book) to cross or access the roads thus increasing the risks. Our roads are full of such diverse situations and behaviors. The Social, Commercial aspects of the people influenced by the Transport Corridor in the project influence area should be considered as the transport problem for better safety management. The Highway Design should ideally incorporate such behaviors with design providing forgiving road side environment with reduction in adverse social impact which we often neglect. Regards Sudhir Project Engineer, Highways Div. SECON Pvt Ltd. 147, 7B Road, EPIP, Whitefield, Bangalore 560066 Ph: 080-41197778 (413) From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Fri Feb 15 01:07:58 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:07:58 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok Message-ID: <00a501c86f23$c7a24c60$56e6e520$@britton@ecoplan.org> From: Saiful Alam [mailto:shovan1209@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 15:03 Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok Yasmin Chowdhury When I first visited Bangkok in 1994, I got around the city mostly by bus. The buses were slow, the streets congested, and I soon learned that I could only make one plan for the morning and one for the afternoon, as it might take a couple hours to move about. Then the city started to build their skytrain. I waited with great anticipation for its completion. It seemed to require a lot more time and a lot more money (OK, just two years of delay and three times over budget) than originally anticipated, and the fares are admittedly quite high, but it was finally built-if never finished. (I saw an article in a Thai newspaper about people very upset that the planned line to their area had never been built; meanwhile, the pilings leading to the now domestic-only airport have been converted into advertising posts.) To be quite honest, I love the skytrain. Sure, the cement structure looming overhead is ugly. Sure, most of the stations lack escalators, making them inaccessible to those in wheelchairs, and exceedingly difficult for those lugging heavy bags or luggage. Sure, the two lines only cover a very limited portion of Bangkok. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, despite all the hassles, the trains are often packed. Sure, the stations are congested and I sometimes have to push through people to reach my train. But at least I can see a little of the city while I travel, and I can now get around to the stops on the line quickly, allowing myself to visit far more places in a day. Though the skytrain certainly makes moving around the city much easier (if you can afford it), it obviously didn't alleviate the congestion, as the government then opened a very limited subway system. The first time I tried to ride it, about a year after it opened, it was closed for two weeks due to an accident. I finally rode it a couple years after that, and discovered that it cost about US$0.50 to ride what it would take me ten minutes to walk. That seemed outrageous, and I don't love riding up and down long escalators and traveling in tunnels. Since the Metro doesn't seem to go much beyond the skytrain, I stick to the skytrain. But now, after spending billions of dollars on those mass transit systems, and despite having an existing extensive bus system, and more roads than most Asian cities of their level of economic development, the government is now planning bus rapid transit-a bit like a street-level trolley, but with buses instead of trams. Of course, that too is delayed-but the cost is a fraction of that for the skytrain and Metro. A more careful look at those costs reveals something interesting and of considerable relevance as Dhaka plans its public transit system. According to various Web sites, the skytrain, which opened in 1999, cost about US$1.5 billion for 24 kilometers. That amounts to US$62.5 million per kilometer. Of course, things were cheaper back then. Construction of the Metro began back in 1996, but it wasn't finished until 2004. According to Wikipedia, "The project suffered multiple delays not only because of the 1997 economic crisis, but also due to challenging civil engineering works of constructing massive underground structures deep in the water-logged soil upon which the city is built." Interesting. Fortunately we don't have those troubles in Dhaka (ahem!). As for cost, the Metro cost a mere US$ 2.75 billion for 21 km, or US$130.95 million per kilometer-just over twice that of the skytrain. Apparently burrowing underground, dealing with flooding issues, providing ventilation, and so on is much more expensive than building above our heads. Meanwhile, again quoting Wikipedia, "ridership has settled down to around 180,000 riders daily - considerably lower than projections of over 400,000, despite fares being slashed in half from 12-38 baht to 10-15 baht per trip. As of 2006, fares range between 14-36 baht per trip." With an exchange rate as I write of 32 baht to one US dollar, that's a mighty high fare. Good thing Bangladeshis are wealthier than Thais (??). Meanwhile, the anticipated cost for the BRT is 33.4 million for 36 kilometers. Admittedly, anticipated costs are often far less than actual costs, but still, at US$0.93 million per kilometer, that's a bargain compared to the Metro or the skytrain-even more so when considering it's being built last, when prices are highest. At 67 times less than the skytrain and 141 times less than the Metro, even with significant cost increases, it will still be far more affordable than its public transit predecessors. Of course, operational costs are another issue. Buses require fuel, trains electricity. Buses tend to require more maintenance, tires wear down frequently, and buses have to be replaced far more often than trains. While it is cheaper to build a BRT system initially, the higher operational costs might mean that, in the long term, a tram system would be more affordable-tram meaning street-level light rail, not something up in the sky or underground, which greatly multiplies the costs. Which is all to say, I'm all for public transit. So, apparently, are Thais: last I checked, hotels and housing advertise their proximity to the various public transit options. Apparently people are sick and tired of sitting in cars stuck in traffic jams. In public transit, you can sit back and read a book while you ride, look out the window (preferably not at tunnels), eavesdrop on your neighbor's conversation, and otherwise amuse yourself without risking crashing into someone once the traffic moves again. But when considering spending millions or billions on public transit, it would make sense to invest it wisely, in a system that will be the most extensive and least expensive, and thus offer the best value for the money. At 141 times per kilometer less to build BRT than Metro, we could both have a far more extensive system, meeting far more people's needs, and lower fares. Sounds like a bargain to me! Syed Siful Alam Shovan shovan1209@yahoo.com From schipper at wri.org Fri Feb 15 02:01:54 2008 From: schipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:01:54 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok References: <00a501c86f23$c7a24c60$56e6e520$@britton@ecoplan.org> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C013BBEDE@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> My daughter lives near the Skytrain, which makes her apartment very accessible.. but others laughed and said "the Skytrain is for tourists and students". Whatever, it works for journeys along the corridor. Her building sends a shuttle, actually a small golf cart, to pick up visitors and residents for the last 750 meters. When moving there from a nearby hotel ona Saturday afternoon with baggage I made a mistake and took a cab. Took 50 minutes because of horrible traffic and one way streets. Skytrain would have taken 10 mins walk plus 4 minute ride. But I would have had to haul my bags up three stories of stairs because the sky train stop near my hotel did not have a lift or escalator, at least not one I could find. As for the metro, I'm told Thais do not like to ride underground, pure and simple. The real issue is in Yasmin's cost figures --- How much money would it cost to put in enough Skytrain and other rail lines to blanket the city? And what good would it do without real restraints on individual vehicle use -- widescale congestion pricing etc. Lee Schipper EMBARQ Fellow EMBARQ the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and Visiting Scholar, Univ of Calif Transport Center Berkeley CA www.uctc.net skype: mrmeter 510 642 6889 202 262 7476 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of eric.britton Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:08 AM To: Sustran Resource Centre; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com Cc: shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd Subject: [sustran] Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok From: Saiful Alam [mailto:shovan1209@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 15:03 Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok Yasmin Chowdhury When I first visited Bangkok in 1994, I got around the city mostly by bus. The buses were slow, the streets congested, and I soon learned that I could only make one plan for the morning and one for the afternoon, as it might take a couple hours to move about. Then the city started to build their skytrain. I waited with great anticipation for its completion. It seemed to require a lot more time and a lot more money (OK, just two years of delay and three times over budget) than originally anticipated, and the fares are admittedly quite high, but it was finally built-if never finished. (I saw an article in a Thai newspaper about people very upset that the planned line to their area had never been built; meanwhile, the pilings leading to the now domestic-only airport have been converted into advertising posts.) To be quite honest, I love the skytrain. Sure, the cement structure looming overhead is ugly. Sure, most of the stations lack escalators, making them inaccessible to those in wheelchairs, and exceedingly difficult for those lugging heavy bags or luggage. Sure, the two lines only cover a very limited portion of Bangkok. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, despite all the hassles, the trains are often packed. Sure, the stations are congested and I sometimes have to push through people to reach my train. But at least I can see a little of the city while I travel, and I can now get around to the stops on the line quickly, allowing myself to visit far more places in a day. Though the skytrain certainly makes moving around the city much easier (if you can afford it), it obviously didn't alleviate the congestion, as the government then opened a very limited subway system. The first time I tried to ride it, about a year after it opened, it was closed for two weeks due to an accident. I finally rode it a couple years after that, and discovered that it cost about US$0.50 to ride what it would take me ten minutes to walk. That seemed outrageous, and I don't love riding up and down long escalators and traveling in tunnels. Since the Metro doesn't seem to go much beyond the skytrain, I stick to the skytrain. But now, after spending billions of dollars on those mass transit systems, and despite having an existing extensive bus system, and more roads than most Asian cities of their level of economic development, the government is now planning bus rapid transit-a bit like a street-level trolley, but with buses instead of trams. Of course, that too is delayed-but the cost is a fraction of that for the skytrain and Metro. A more careful look at those costs reveals something interesting and of considerable relevance as Dhaka plans its public transit system. According to various Web sites, the skytrain, which opened in 1999, cost about US$1.5 billion for 24 kilometers. That amounts to US$62.5 million per kilometer. Of course, things were cheaper back then. Construction of the Metro began back in 1996, but it wasn't finished until 2004. According to Wikipedia, "The project suffered multiple delays not only because of the 1997 economic crisis, but also due to challenging civil engineering works of constructing massive underground structures deep in the water-logged soil upon which the city is built." Interesting. Fortunately we don't have those troubles in Dhaka (ahem!). As for cost, the Metro cost a mere US$ 2.75 billion for 21 km, or US$130.95 million per kilometer-just over twice that of the skytrain. Apparently burrowing underground, dealing with flooding issues, providing ventilation, and so on is much more expensive than building above our heads. Meanwhile, again quoting Wikipedia, "ridership has settled down to around 180,000 riders daily - considerably lower than projections of over 400,000, despite fares being slashed in half from 12-38 baht to 10-15 baht per trip. As of 2006, fares range between 14-36 baht per trip." With an exchange rate as I write of 32 baht to one US dollar, that's a mighty high fare. Good thing Bangladeshis are wealthier than Thais (??). Meanwhile, the anticipated cost for the BRT is 33.4 million for 36 kilometers. Admittedly, anticipated costs are often far less than actual costs, but still, at US$0.93 million per kilometer, that's a bargain compared to the Metro or the skytrain-even more so when considering it's being built last, when prices are highest. At 67 times less than the skytrain and 141 times less than the Metro, even with significant cost increases, it will still be far more affordable than its public transit predecessors. Of course, operational costs are another issue. Buses require fuel, trains electricity. Buses tend to require more maintenance, tires wear down frequently, and buses have to be replaced far more often than trains. While it is cheaper to build a BRT system initially, the higher operational costs might mean that, in the long term, a tram system would be more affordable-tram meaning street-level light rail, not something up in the sky or underground, which greatly multiplies the costs. Which is all to say, I'm all for public transit. So, apparently, are Thais: last I checked, hotels and housing advertise their proximity to the various public transit options. Apparently people are sick and tired of sitting in cars stuck in traffic jams. In public transit, you can sit back and read a book while you ride, look out the window (preferably not at tunnels), eavesdrop on your neighbor's conversation, and otherwise amuse yourself without risking crashing into someone once the traffic moves again. But when considering spending millions or billions on public transit, it would make sense to invest it wisely, in a system that will be the most extensive and least expensive, and thus offer the best value for the money. At 141 times per kilometer less to build BRT than Metro, we could both have a far more extensive system, meeting far more people's needs, and lower fares. Sounds like a bargain to me! Syed Siful Alam Shovan shovan1209@yahoo.com -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From carlosfpardo at gmail.com Fri Feb 15 02:11:35 2008 From: carlosfpardo at gmail.com (Carlosfelipe Pardo) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:11:35 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok In-Reply-To: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C013BBEDE@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> References: <00a501c86f23$c7a24c60$56e6e520$@britton@ecoplan.org> <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C013BBEDE@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> Message-ID: <47B47647.10400@gmail.com> From living in Bangkok in 2005, I would say the best mode of transport (not the cleanest, but the best) are the motorboats on the canals. If Bangkok would "unearth" the rivers it has underground and developed a real water-based transport system, it may be less expensive and more efficient than many others. Incidentally, the river boats have similar routes to the Skytrain (on the klong behind Sukkumvit at least), at 8 baht (20 us cent) for along ride and 4 Baht (10 US cent) for a short ride (Bangkokians may confirm). And yes, the BTS is for tourists and visitors. Best regards, Carlosfelipe Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 Bogot? D.C., Colombia Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 carlos.pardo@gtz.de www.gtz.de (carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org ) Lee Schipper wrote: > My daughter lives near the Skytrain, which makes her apartment very > accessible.. but others laughed and said "the Skytrain is for tourists > and students". Whatever, it works for journeys along the corridor. Her > building sends a shuttle, actually a small golf cart, to pick up > visitors and residents for the last 750 meters. > > When moving there from a nearby hotel ona Saturday afternoon with > baggage I made a mistake and took a cab. Took 50 minutes because of > horrible traffic and one way streets. Skytrain would have taken 10 mins > walk plus 4 minute ride. But I would have had to haul my bags up three > stories of stairs because the sky train stop near my hotel did not have > a lift or escalator, at least not one I could find. > > As for the metro, I'm told Thais do not like to ride underground, pure > and simple. > > The real issue is in Yasmin's cost figures --- How much money would it > cost to put in enough Skytrain and other rail lines to blanket the city? > And what good would it do without real restraints on individual vehicle > use -- widescale congestion pricing etc. > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > > and > > Visiting Scholar, > Univ of Calif Transport Center > Berkeley CA > www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > 510 642 6889 > 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of eric.britton > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:08 AM > To: Sustran Resource Centre; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com > Cc: shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > Subject: [sustran] Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > From: Saiful Alam [mailto:shovan1209@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 15:03 > > > > > > Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > Yasmin Chowdhury > > When I first visited Bangkok in 1994, I got around the city mostly by > bus. > The buses were slow, the streets congested, and I soon learned that I > could > only make one plan for the morning and one for the afternoon, as it > might > take a couple hours to move about. > > Then the city started to build their skytrain. I waited with great > anticipation for its completion. It seemed to require a lot more time > and a > lot more money (OK, just two years of delay and three times over budget) > than originally anticipated, and the fares are admittedly quite high, > but it > was finally built-if never finished. (I saw an article in a Thai > newspaper > about people very upset that the planned line to their area had never > been > built; meanwhile, the pilings leading to the now domestic-only airport > have > been converted into advertising posts.) > > To be quite honest, I love the skytrain. Sure, the cement structure > looming > overhead is ugly. Sure, most of the stations lack escalators, making > them > inaccessible to those in wheelchairs, and exceedingly difficult for > those > lugging heavy bags or luggage. Sure, the two lines only cover a very > limited portion of Bangkok. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, despite all > the > hassles, the trains are often packed. Sure, the stations are congested > and > I sometimes have to push through people to reach my train. But at least > I > can see a little of the city while I travel, and I can now get around to > the > stops on the line quickly, allowing myself to visit far more places in a > day. > > Though the skytrain certainly makes moving around the city much easier > (if > you can afford it), it obviously didn't alleviate the congestion, as the > government then opened a very limited subway system. The first time I > tried > to ride it, about a year after it opened, it was closed for two weeks > due to > an accident. I finally rode it a couple years after that, and > discovered > that it cost about US$0.50 to ride what it would take me ten minutes to > walk. That seemed outrageous, and I don't love riding up and down long > escalators and traveling in tunnels. Since the Metro doesn't seem to go > much beyond the skytrain, I stick to the skytrain. > > But now, after spending billions of dollars on those mass transit > systems, > and despite having an existing extensive bus system, and more roads than > most Asian cities of their level of economic development, the government > is > now planning bus rapid transit-a bit like a street-level trolley, but > with > buses instead of trams. Of course, that too is delayed-but the cost is > a > fraction of that for the skytrain and Metro. > > A more careful look at those costs reveals something interesting and of > considerable relevance as Dhaka plans its public transit system. > According > to various Web sites, the skytrain, which opened in 1999, cost about > US$1.5 > billion for 24 kilometers. That amounts to US$62.5 million per > kilometer. > Of course, things were cheaper back then. > > Construction of the Metro began back in 1996, but it wasn't finished > until > 2004. According to Wikipedia, "The project suffered multiple delays not > only because of the 1997 economic crisis, but also due to challenging > civil > engineering works of constructing massive underground structures deep in > the > water-logged soil upon which the city is built." Interesting. > Fortunately > we don't have those troubles in Dhaka (ahem!). > > As for cost, the Metro cost a mere US$ 2.75 billion for 21 km, or > US$130.95 > million per kilometer-just over twice that of the skytrain. Apparently > burrowing underground, dealing with flooding issues, providing > ventilation, > and so on is much more expensive than building above our heads. > Meanwhile, > again quoting Wikipedia, "ridership has settled down to around 180,000 > riders daily - considerably lower than projections of over 400,000, > despite > fares being slashed in half from 12-38 baht to 10-15 baht per trip. As > of > 2006, fares range between 14-36 baht per trip." With an exchange rate > as I > write of 32 baht to one US dollar, that's a mighty high fare. Good > thing > Bangladeshis are wealthier than Thais (??). > > Meanwhile, the anticipated cost for the BRT is 33.4 million for 36 > kilometers. Admittedly, anticipated costs are often far less than > actual > costs, but still, at US$0.93 million per kilometer, that's a bargain > compared to the Metro or the skytrain-even more so when considering it's > being built last, when prices are highest. At 67 times less than the > skytrain and 141 times less than the Metro, even with significant cost > increases, it will still be far more affordable than its public transit > predecessors. > > Of course, operational costs are another issue. Buses require fuel, > trains > electricity. Buses tend to require more maintenance, tires wear down > frequently, and buses have to be replaced far more often than trains. > While > it is cheaper to build a BRT system initially, the higher operational > costs > might mean that, in the long term, a tram system would be more > affordable-tram meaning street-level light rail, not something up in the > sky > or underground, which greatly multiplies the costs. > > Which is all to say, I'm all for public transit. So, apparently, are > Thais: > last I checked, hotels and housing advertise their proximity to the > various > public transit options. Apparently people are sick and tired of sitting > in > cars stuck in traffic jams. In public transit, you can sit back and > read a > book while you ride, look out the window (preferably not at tunnels), > eavesdrop on your neighbor's conversation, and otherwise amuse yourself > without risking crashing into someone once the traffic moves again. > > But when considering spending millions or billions on public transit, it > would make sense to invest it wisely, in a system that will be the most > extensive and least expensive, and thus offer the best value for the > money. > At 141 times per kilometer less to build BRT than Metro, we could both > have > a far more extensive system, meeting far more people's needs, and lower > fares. Sounds like a bargain to me! > > > > > > Syed Siful Alam Shovan > shovan1209@yahoo.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > From SCHIPPER at wri.org Fri Feb 15 02:01:54 2008 From: SCHIPPER at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:01:54 -0500 Subject: [sustran] [NewMobilityCafe] Re: Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok References: <00a501c86f23$c7a24c60$56e6e520$@britton@ecoplan.org> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C013BBEDE@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> My daughter lives near the Skytrain, which makes her apartment very accessible.. but others laughed and said "the Skytrain is for tourists and students". Whatever, it works for journeys along the corridor. Her building sends a shuttle, actually a small golf cart, to pick up visitors and residents for the last 750 meters. When moving there from a nearby hotel ona Saturday afternoon with baggage I made a mistake and took a cab. Took 50 minutes because of horrible traffic and one way streets. Skytrain would have taken 10 mins walk plus 4 minute ride. But I would have had to haul my bags up three stories of stairs because the sky train stop near my hotel did not have a lift or escalator, at least not one I could find. As for the metro, I'm told Thais do not like to ride underground, pure and simple. The real issue is in Yasmin's cost figures --- How much money would it cost to put in enough Skytrain and other rail lines to blanket the city? And what good would it do without real restraints on individual vehicle use -- widescale congestion pricing etc. Lee Schipper EMBARQ Fellow EMBARQ the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org and Visiting Scholar, Univ of Calif Transport Center Berkeley CA www.uctc.net skype: mrmeter 510 642 6889 202 262 7476 -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of eric.britton Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:08 AM To: Sustran Resource Centre; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com Cc: shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd Subject: [sustran] Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok From: Saiful Alam [mailto:shovan1209@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 15:03 Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok Yasmin Chowdhury When I first visited Bangkok in 1994, I got around the city mostly by bus. The buses were slow, the streets congested, and I soon learned that I could only make one plan for the morning and one for the afternoon, as it might take a couple hours to move about. Then the city started to build their skytrain. I waited with great anticipation for its completion. It seemed to require a lot more time and a lot more money (OK, just two years of delay and three times over budget) than originally anticipated, and the fares are admittedly quite high, but it was finally built-if never finished. (I saw an article in a Thai newspaper about people very upset that the planned line to their area had never been built; meanwhile, the pilings leading to the now domestic-only airport have been converted into advertising posts.) To be quite honest, I love the skytrain. Sure, the cement structure looming overhead is ugly. Sure, most of the stations lack escalators, making them inaccessible to those in wheelchairs, and exceedingly difficult for those lugging heavy bags or luggage. Sure, the two lines only cover a very limited portion of Bangkok. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, despite all the hassles, the trains are often packed. Sure, the stations are congested and I sometimes have to push through people to reach my train. But at least I can see a little of the city while I travel, and I can now get around to the stops on the line quickly, allowing myself to visit far more places in a day. Though the skytrain certainly makes moving around the city much easier (if you can afford it), it obviously didn't alleviate the congestion, as the government then opened a very limited subway system. The first time I tried to ride it, about a year after it opened, it was closed for two weeks due to an accident. I finally rode it a couple years after that, and discovered that it cost about US$0.50 to ride what it would take me ten minutes to walk. That seemed outrageous, and I don't love riding up and down long escalators and traveling in tunnels. Since the Metro doesn't seem to go much beyond the skytrain, I stick to the skytrain. But now, after spending billions of dollars on those mass transit systems, and despite having an existing extensive bus system, and more roads than most Asian cities of their level of economic development, the government is now planning bus rapid transit-a bit like a street-level trolley, but with buses instead of trams. Of course, that too is delayed-but the cost is a fraction of that for the skytrain and Metro. A more careful look at those costs reveals something interesting and of considerable relevance as Dhaka plans its public transit system. According to various Web sites, the skytrain, which opened in 1999, cost about US$1.5 billion for 24 kilometers. That amounts to US$62.5 million per kilometer. Of course, things were cheaper back then. Construction of the Metro began back in 1996, but it wasn't finished until 2004. According to Wikipedia, "The project suffered multiple delays not only because of the 1997 economic crisis, but also due to challenging civil engineering works of constructing massive underground structures deep in the water-logged soil upon which the city is built." Interesting. Fortunately we don't have those troubles in Dhaka (ahem!). As for cost, the Metro cost a mere US$ 2.75 billion for 21 km, or US$130.95 million per kilometer-just over twice that of the skytrain. Apparently burrowing underground, dealing with flooding issues, providing ventilation, and so on is much more expensive than building above our heads. Meanwhile, again quoting Wikipedia, "ridership has settled down to around 180,000 riders daily - considerably lower than projections of over 400,000, despite fares being slashed in half from 12-38 baht to 10-15 baht per trip. As of 2006, fares range between 14-36 baht per trip." With an exchange rate as I write of 32 baht to one US dollar, that's a mighty high fare. Good thing Bangladeshis are wealthier than Thais (??). Meanwhile, the anticipated cost for the BRT is 33.4 million for 36 kilometers. Admittedly, anticipated costs are often far less than actual costs, but still, at US$0.93 million per kilometer, that's a bargain compared to the Metro or the skytrain-even more so when considering it's being built last, when prices are highest. At 67 times less than the skytrain and 141 times less than the Metro, even with significant cost increases, it will still be far more affordable than its public transit predecessors. Of course, operational costs are another issue. Buses require fuel, trains electricity. Buses tend to require more maintenance, tires wear down frequently, and buses have to be replaced far more often than trains. While it is cheaper to build a BRT system initially, the higher operational costs might mean that, in the long term, a tram system would be more affordable-tram meaning street-level light rail, not something up in the sky or underground, which greatly multiplies the costs. Which is all to say, I'm all for public transit. So, apparently, are Thais: last I checked, hotels and housing advertise their proximity to the various public transit options. Apparently people are sick and tired of sitting in cars stuck in traffic jams. In public transit, you can sit back and read a book while you ride, look out the window (preferably not at tunnels), eavesdrop on your neighbor's conversation, and otherwise amuse yourself without risking crashing into someone once the traffic moves again. But when considering spending millions or billions on public transit, it would make sense to invest it wisely, in a system that will be the most extensive and least expensive, and thus offer the best value for the money. At 141 times per kilometer less to build BRT than Metro, we could both have a far more extensive system, meeting far more people's needs, and lower fares. Sounds like a bargain to me! Syed Siful Alam Shovan shovan1209@yahoo.com -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From edelman at greenidea.eu Fri Feb 15 05:08:37 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 21:08:37 +0100 Subject: [sustran] How to pay for Public Transport In-Reply-To: <00a501c86f23$c7a24c60$56e6e520$@britton@ecoplan.org> References: <00a501c86f23$c7a24c60$56e6e520$@britton@ecoplan.org> Message-ID: <47B49FC5.1070908@greenidea.eu> > > in a recent posting Yasmin Chowdhury wrote: "...Sounds like a bargain to me!" IN a recent post I mentioned that it was very unfortunate that cities had to rely on advertising - some of it very anti public transport - to pay for public transport (collective and individual)... while governments paid for all sorts of silly or serious - sometimes deadly - things. I am not entirely sure it is off topic but sometimes it seems like we talk about countries as if they only have transportation systems. I don't mean that urban planning for reducing the need mobility or energy sources aren't mentioned often enough in Sustran, New Mob., Lots Less Cars - and they aren't - but that as proponents of sustainable transport in various places we are just playing with whatever the government at the time - and successive governments - have left over from all the other spending. So, is there something we can or want to do as IDENTIFIED sustainable transport supporters against, e.g. the War in Iraq? To say we are not political or partisan misses the point: One new jet fighter equals a lot of padded seats (or one costs the same as at least 200 buses). Thanks, T -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Fri Feb 15 23:46:45 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:46:45 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Not "transport" but a way of life Message-ID: <001401c86fe1$a1108bc0$e331a340$@britton@ecoplan.org> -----Original Message----- From: Robert Bartlett [mailto:roadnotes@freenet.de] Sent: Friday, 15 February 2008 15:21 To: Gender and Transport Subject: [gatnet] Benin - Lake transport We have another in the photo-documents series on transport in different countries. The author of the document is Mr. Placide Badji, who is a Benin citizen. He is a civil engineer and holds a masters degree in transport economics. This document deals with the lake town of Ganvie in Benin. Placide explains that waterway transport in Ganvie is a mode of life - for women as well as men, as the photos show - and not just a means of movement. For example, the pirogues are used as places where people can take a rest.There is no transport choice; pirogues are the only option. The document shows through the use of photographs and texts the different aspects of ife in this lake-dwelling community. 27 pages including covers, photo-document, 20+ photos. PDF A4 landscape layout, 2.1MB. Version 1.05, February 2008 (English). For other details / copy check http://www.lulu.com/content/2036511 or email me directly. Regards, REB From edelman at greenidea.eu Sun Feb 17 01:28:54 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 17:28:54 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Ecocities of Tomorrow: An Interview with Richard Register Message-ID: <47B70F46.8010305@greenidea.eu> Ecocities of Tomorrow: An Interview with Richard Register Author, theorist and philosopher Richard Register is one of the pioneers of the ecocity movement, with 35 years of experience advocating for cities that facilitate humanity's "creative and compassionate evolution" while contributing to the health of the planet... -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. From madhav.g.badami at mcgill.ca Mon Feb 18 00:57:47 2008 From: madhav.g.badami at mcgill.ca (Madhav Badami, Prof.) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:57:47 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Sustainable transport and the media in India ... References: <00a501c86f23$c7a24c60$56e6e520$@britton@ecoplan.org><46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C013BBEDE@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> <47B47647.10400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F06325684@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> Greetings all, I thank Yasmin Chowdhury for her ?Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok?, and Saiful Alam (and Eric Britton) for posting it. Yasmin?s piece, and Lee?s response to it, reminded me of the attack that some newspapers in Delhi (chiefly The Pioneer and the Times of India) launched over several days on the High Capacity Bus System (HCBS), the BRT system being currently implemented there. The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it. Two of the items, titled ?Experts Order Serial Rape of Delhi Roads: Mindless HCBS plan derails traffic, destroys greenery, leaves city gasping? and ?Will somebody wake up to stop this HCBS madness??, both of which appeared as ?investigation? pieces in The Pioneer on November 6 and 7, may be accessed at: http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 The Times of India, a leading English language national daily effectively made the same claims as in the above items, in several pieces, including one titled ?Buses Hog Space, Cars Squeezed Out? on November 16. Feeling compelled to respond to these items (whose titles betray their general tone and content), I wrote an article in which I attempted to rebut them point by point, and sent it off to The Hindu, another leading English language national daily. My article was not published as it was originally written, because it was felt by the editor to be ?polemical?, and too long. But he did publish (on December 5) a considerably condensed version in which I removed specific references to the pieces in the Times of India and the Pioneer. In the end, I was thankful for his decision, because, although it denied me the opportunity to directly confront various specific claims made in the pieces (such as, for example, that the decision to implement BRT was sold by a cabal of experts to decision makers who accepted it in a hurry ? actually, it was approved after having been debated and scrutinized at length in various official committees since the mid-1990s), it resulted in what I believe is a more carefully argued and tightly focused article, which may be accessed at: http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/05/stories/2007120553611000.htm Apart from arguing that BRT systems have the potential, when properly designed and implemented, to be low cost mass transit solutions that are appropriate for rapidly motorizing, low-income country cities, I placed the issue of BRT (and more generally, mass transit) in a larger context, by making the case that policies to appropriately price and curb personal motor vehicle use, and provide accessibility for pedestrians and cyclists, are important for enhancing the effectiveness of mass transit, allowing all modes (including cars and other personal motor vehicles) to operate more efficiently, mitigating rapidly worsening urban transport impacts, and promoting social justice on our roads. My purpose is not only to share my article (to which I welcome your critical comments) but also to demonstrate what we are up against in confronting the elite interests represented and served by the mainstream media (with their pro-car, highway, flyovers, and metro, and anti-pedestrian, NMT and bus transit prejudices), and arguing for more environmentally sustainable and socially equitable alternatives. It is little wonder that the Tata Nano has been largely applauded in the same media as the greatest thing since sliced bread (or, if you wish, masala dosa) ? including, as I recall, for the rural masses of this country, who ostensibly have no unmet needs other than a 1-1.5 lakh rupee car. Cheers, Madhav ************************************************************************ "As for the future, your task is not to foresee, but to enable it." Antoine de Saint-Exupery Madhav G. Badami, PhD School of Urban Planning and McGill School of Environment McGill University Macdonald-Harrington Building 815 Sherbrooke Street West Montreal, QC, H3A 2K6, Canada Phone: 514-398-3183 (Work); 514-486-2370 (Home) Fax: 514-398-8376; 514-398-1643 URLs: www.mcgill.ca/urbanplanning www.mcgill.ca/mse e-mail: madhav.badami@mcgill.ca -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Carlosfelipe Pardo Sent: Thu 2/14/2008 12:11 PM To: Lee Schipper Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; Sustran Resource Centre; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd Subject: [sustran] Re: Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok From living in Bangkok in 2005, I would say the best mode of transport (not the cleanest, but the best) are the motorboats on the canals. If Bangkok would "unearth" the rivers it has underground and developed a real water-based transport system, it may be less expensive and more efficient than many others. Incidentally, the river boats have similar routes to the Skytrain (on the klong behind Sukkumvit at least), at 8 baht (20 us cent) for along ride and 4 Baht (10 US cent) for a short ride (Bangkokians may confirm). And yes, the BTS is for tourists and visitors. Best regards, Carlosfelipe Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 Bogot? D.C., Colombia Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 carlos.pardo@gtz.de www.gtz.de (carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org ) Lee Schipper wrote: > My daughter lives near the Skytrain, which makes her apartment very > accessible.. but others laughed and said "the Skytrain is for tourists > and students". Whatever, it works for journeys along the corridor. Her > building sends a shuttle, actually a small golf cart, to pick up > visitors and residents for the last 750 meters. > > When moving there from a nearby hotel ona Saturday afternoon with > baggage I made a mistake and took a cab. Took 50 minutes because of > horrible traffic and one way streets. Skytrain would have taken 10 mins > walk plus 4 minute ride. But I would have had to haul my bags up three > stories of stairs because the sky train stop near my hotel did not have > a lift or escalator, at least not one I could find. > > As for the metro, I'm told Thais do not like to ride underground, pure > and simple. > > The real issue is in Yasmin's cost figures --- How much money would it > cost to put in enough Skytrain and other rail lines to blanket the city? > And what good would it do without real restraints on individual vehicle > use -- widescale congestion pricing etc. > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > > and > > Visiting Scholar, > Univ of Calif Transport Center > Berkeley CA > www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > 510 642 6889 > 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of eric.britton > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:08 AM > To: Sustran Resource Centre; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com > Cc: shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > Subject: [sustran] Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > From: Saiful Alam [mailto:shovan1209@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 15:03 > > > > > > Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > Yasmin Chowdhury > > When I first visited Bangkok in 1994, I got around the city mostly by > bus. > The buses were slow, the streets congested, and I soon learned that I > could > only make one plan for the morning and one for the afternoon, as it > might > take a couple hours to move about. > > Then the city started to build their skytrain. I waited with great > anticipation for its completion. It seemed to require a lot more time > and a > lot more money (OK, just two years of delay and three times over budget) > than originally anticipated, and the fares are admittedly quite high, > but it > was finally built-if never finished. (I saw an article in a Thai > newspaper > about people very upset that the planned line to their area had never > been > built; meanwhile, the pilings leading to the now domestic-only airport > have > been converted into advertising posts.) > > To be quite honest, I love the skytrain. Sure, the cement structure > looming > overhead is ugly. Sure, most of the stations lack escalators, making > them > inaccessible to those in wheelchairs, and exceedingly difficult for > those > lugging heavy bags or luggage. Sure, the two lines only cover a very > limited portion of Bangkok. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, despite all > the > hassles, the trains are often packed. Sure, the stations are congested > and > I sometimes have to push through people to reach my train. But at least > I > can see a little of the city while I travel, and I can now get around to > the > stops on the line quickly, allowing myself to visit far more places in a > day. > > Though the skytrain certainly makes moving around the city much easier > (if > you can afford it), it obviously didn't alleviate the congestion, as the > government then opened a very limited subway system. The first time I > tried > to ride it, about a year after it opened, it was closed for two weeks > due to > an accident. I finally rode it a couple years after that, and > discovered > that it cost about US$0.50 to ride what it would take me ten minutes to > walk. That seemed outrageous, and I don't love riding up and down long > escalators and traveling in tunnels. Since the Metro doesn't seem to go > much beyond the skytrain, I stick to the skytrain. > > But now, after spending billions of dollars on those mass transit > systems, > and despite having an existing extensive bus system, and more roads than > most Asian cities of their level of economic development, the government > is > now planning bus rapid transit-a bit like a street-level trolley, but > with > buses instead of trams. Of course, that too is delayed-but the cost is > a > fraction of that for the skytrain and Metro. > > A more careful look at those costs reveals something interesting and of > considerable relevance as Dhaka plans its public transit system. > According > to various Web sites, the skytrain, which opened in 1999, cost about > US$1.5 > billion for 24 kilometers. That amounts to US$62.5 million per > kilometer. > Of course, things were cheaper back then. > > Construction of the Metro began back in 1996, but it wasn't finished > until > 2004. According to Wikipedia, "The project suffered multiple delays not > only because of the 1997 economic crisis, but also due to challenging > civil > engineering works of constructing massive underground structures deep in > the > water-logged soil upon which the city is built." Interesting. > Fortunately > we don't have those troubles in Dhaka (ahem!). > > As for cost, the Metro cost a mere US$ 2.75 billion for 21 km, or > US$130.95 > million per kilometer-just over twice that of the skytrain. Apparently > burrowing underground, dealing with flooding issues, providing > ventilation, > and so on is much more expensive than building above our heads. > Meanwhile, > again quoting Wikipedia, "ridership has settled down to around 180,000 > riders daily - considerably lower than projections of over 400,000, > despite > fares being slashed in half from 12-38 baht to 10-15 baht per trip. As > of > 2006, fares range between 14-36 baht per trip." With an exchange rate > as I > write of 32 baht to one US dollar, that's a mighty high fare. Good > thing > Bangladeshis are wealthier than Thais (??). > > Meanwhile, the anticipated cost for the BRT is 33.4 million for 36 > kilometers. Admittedly, anticipated costs are often far less than > actual > costs, but still, at US$0.93 million per kilometer, that's a bargain > compared to the Metro or the skytrain-even more so when considering it's > being built last, when prices are highest. At 67 times less than the > skytrain and 141 times less than the Metro, even with significant cost > increases, it will still be far more affordable than its public transit > predecessors. > > Of course, operational costs are another issue. Buses require fuel, > trains > electricity. Buses tend to require more maintenance, tires wear down > frequently, and buses have to be replaced far more often than trains. > While > it is cheaper to build a BRT system initially, the higher operational > costs > might mean that, in the long term, a tram system would be more > affordable-tram meaning street-level light rail, not something up in the > sky > or underground, which greatly multiplies the costs. > > Which is all to say, I'm all for public transit. So, apparently, are > Thais: > last I checked, hotels and housing advertise their proximity to the > various > public transit options. Apparently people are sick and tired of sitting > in > cars stuck in traffic jams. In public transit, you can sit back and > read a > book while you ride, look out the window (preferably not at tunnels), > eavesdrop on your neighbor's conversation, and otherwise amuse yourself > without risking crashing into someone once the traffic moves again. > > But when considering spending millions or billions on public transit, it > would make sense to invest it wisely, in a system that will be the most > extensive and least expensive, and thus offer the best value for the > money. > At 141 times per kilometer less to build BRT than Metro, we could both > have > a far more extensive system, meeting far more people's needs, and lower > fares. Sounds like a bargain to me! > > > > > > Syed Siful Alam Shovan > shovan1209@yahoo.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From madhav.g.badami at mcgill.ca Mon Feb 18 02:37:32 2008 From: madhav.g.badami at mcgill.ca (Madhav Badami, Prof.) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:37:32 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... References: <00a501c86f23$c7a24c60$56e6e520$@britton@ecoplan.org><46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C013BBEDE@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local><47B47647.10400@gmail.com> <45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F06325684@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: <45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F06325688@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> Hello all, again, Our friend Sujit Patwardhan from Pune pointed out that the links that I provided to the Pioneer articles don't work ... please try the ones below (the links I provided earlier worked a week or so ago!). http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 A minor correction to the sentence "The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it." in the first paragraph of my posting; it should read: "The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of BRT. Besides, the Pioneer pieces personally attacked Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it." Cheers, Madhav -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Madhav Badami, Prof. Sent: Sun 2/17/2008 10:57 AM To: Sustran Resource Centre Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd Subject: [sustran] Sustainable transport and the media in India ... Greetings all, I thank Yasmin Chowdhury for her "Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok", and Saiful Alam (and Eric Britton) for posting it. Yasmin's piece, and Lee's response to it, reminded me of the attack that some newspapers in Delhi (chiefly The Pioneer and the Times of India) launched over several days on the High Capacity Bus System (HCBS), the BRT system being currently implemented there. The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it. Two of the items, titled "Experts Order Serial Rape of Delhi Roads: Mindless HCBS plan derails traffic, destroys greenery, leaves city gasping" and "Will somebody wake up to stop this HCBS madness?", both of which appeared as "investigation" pieces in The Pioneer on November 6 and 7, may be accessed at: http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 The Times of India, a leading English language national daily effectively made the same claims as in the above items, in several pieces, including one titled "Buses Hog Space, Cars Squeezed Out" on November 16. Feeling compelled to respond to these items (whose titles betray their general tone and content), I wrote an article in which I attempted to rebut them point by point, and sent it off to The Hindu, another leading English language national daily. My article was not published as it was originally written, because it was felt by the editor to be "polemical", and too long. But he did publish (on December 5) a considerably condensed version in which I removed specific references to the pieces in the Times of India and the Pioneer. In the end, I was thankful for his decision, because, although it denied me the opportunity to directly confront various specific claims made in the pieces (such as, for example, that the decision to implement BRT was sold by a cabal of experts to decision makers who accepted it in a hurry - actually, it was approved after having been debated and scrutinized at length in various official committees since the mid-1990s), it resulted in what I believe is a more carefully argued and tightly focused article, which may be accessed at: http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/05/stories/2007120553611000.htm Apart from arguing that BRT systems have the potential, when properly designed and implemented, to be low cost mass transit solutions that are appropriate for rapidly motorizing, low-income country cities, I placed the issue of BRT (and more generally, mass transit) in a larger context, by making the case that policies to appropriately price and curb personal motor vehicle use, and provide accessibility for pedestrians and cyclists, are important for enhancing the effectiveness of mass transit, allowing all modes (including cars and other personal motor vehicles) to operate more efficiently, mitigating rapidly worsening urban transport impacts, and promoting social justice on our roads. My purpose is not only to share my article (to which I welcome your critical comments) but also to demonstrate what we are up against in confronting the elite interests represented and served by the mainstream media (with their pro-car, highway, flyovers, and metro, and anti-pedestrian, NMT and bus transit prejudices), and arguing for more environmentally sustainable and socially equitable alternatives. It is little wonder that the Tata Nano has been largely applauded in the same media as the greatest thing since sliced bread (or, if you wish, masala dosa) - including, as I recall, for the rural masses of this country, who ostensibly have no unmet needs other than a 1-1.5 lakh rupee car. Cheers, Madhav ************************************************************************ "As for the future, your task is not to foresee, but to enable it." Antoine de Saint-Exupery Madhav G. Badami, PhD School of Urban Planning and McGill School of Environment McGill University Macdonald-Harrington Building 815 Sherbrooke Street West Montreal, QC, H3A 2K6, Canada Phone: 514-398-3183 (Work); 514-486-2370 (Home) Fax: 514-398-8376; 514-398-1643 URLs: www.mcgill.ca/urbanplanning www.mcgill.ca/mse e-mail: madhav.badami@mcgill.ca -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Carlosfelipe Pardo Sent: Thu 2/14/2008 12:11 PM To: Lee Schipper Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; Sustran Resource Centre; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd Subject: [sustran] Re: Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok From living in Bangkok in 2005, I would say the best mode of transport (not the cleanest, but the best) are the motorboats on the canals. If Bangkok would "unearth" the rivers it has underground and developed a real water-based transport system, it may be less expensive and more efficient than many others. Incidentally, the river boats have similar routes to the Skytrain (on the klong behind Sukkumvit at least), at 8 baht (20 us cent) for along ride and 4 Baht (10 US cent) for a short ride (Bangkokians may confirm). And yes, the BTS is for tourists and visitors. Best regards, Carlosfelipe Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 Bogot? D.C., Colombia Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 carlos.pardo@gtz.de www.gtz.de (carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org ) Lee Schipper wrote: > My daughter lives near the Skytrain, which makes her apartment very > accessible.. but others laughed and said "the Skytrain is for tourists > and students". Whatever, it works for journeys along the corridor. Her > building sends a shuttle, actually a small golf cart, to pick up > visitors and residents for the last 750 meters. > > When moving there from a nearby hotel ona Saturday afternoon with > baggage I made a mistake and took a cab. Took 50 minutes because of > horrible traffic and one way streets. Skytrain would have taken 10 mins > walk plus 4 minute ride. But I would have had to haul my bags up three > stories of stairs because the sky train stop near my hotel did not have > a lift or escalator, at least not one I could find. > > As for the metro, I'm told Thais do not like to ride underground, pure > and simple. > > The real issue is in Yasmin's cost figures --- How much money would it > cost to put in enough Skytrain and other rail lines to blanket the city? > And what good would it do without real restraints on individual vehicle > use -- widescale congestion pricing etc. > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > > and > > Visiting Scholar, > Univ of Calif Transport Center > Berkeley CA > www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > 510 642 6889 > 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of eric.britton > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:08 AM > To: Sustran Resource Centre; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com > Cc: shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > Subject: [sustran] Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > From: Saiful Alam [mailto:shovan1209@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 15:03 > > > > > > Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > Yasmin Chowdhury > > When I first visited Bangkok in 1994, I got around the city mostly by > bus. > The buses were slow, the streets congested, and I soon learned that I > could > only make one plan for the morning and one for the afternoon, as it > might > take a couple hours to move about. > > Then the city started to build their skytrain. I waited with great > anticipation for its completion. It seemed to require a lot more time > and a > lot more money (OK, just two years of delay and three times over budget) > than originally anticipated, and the fares are admittedly quite high, > but it > was finally built-if never finished. (I saw an article in a Thai > newspaper > about people very upset that the planned line to their area had never > been > built; meanwhile, the pilings leading to the now domestic-only airport > have > been converted into advertising posts.) > > To be quite honest, I love the skytrain. Sure, the cement structure > looming > overhead is ugly. Sure, most of the stations lack escalators, making > them > inaccessible to those in wheelchairs, and exceedingly difficult for > those > lugging heavy bags or luggage. Sure, the two lines only cover a very > limited portion of Bangkok. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, despite all > the > hassles, the trains are often packed. Sure, the stations are congested > and > I sometimes have to push through people to reach my train. But at least > I > can see a little of the city while I travel, and I can now get around to > the > stops on the line quickly, allowing myself to visit far more places in a > day. > > Though the skytrain certainly makes moving around the city much easier > (if > you can afford it), it obviously didn't alleviate the congestion, as the > government then opened a very limited subway system. The first time I > tried > to ride it, about a year after it opened, it was closed for two weeks > due to > an accident. I finally rode it a couple years after that, and > discovered > that it cost about US$0.50 to ride what it would take me ten minutes to > walk. That seemed outrageous, and I don't love riding up and down long > escalators and traveling in tunnels. Since the Metro doesn't seem to go > much beyond the skytrain, I stick to the skytrain. > > But now, after spending billions of dollars on those mass transit > systems, > and despite having an existing extensive bus system, and more roads than > most Asian cities of their level of economic development, the government > is > now planning bus rapid transit-a bit like a street-level trolley, but > with > buses instead of trams. Of course, that too is delayed-but the cost is > a > fraction of that for the skytrain and Metro. > > A more careful look at those costs reveals something interesting and of > considerable relevance as Dhaka plans its public transit system. > According > to various Web sites, the skytrain, which opened in 1999, cost about > US$1.5 > billion for 24 kilometers. That amounts to US$62.5 million per > kilometer. > Of course, things were cheaper back then. > > Construction of the Metro began back in 1996, but it wasn't finished > until > 2004. According to Wikipedia, "The project suffered multiple delays not > only because of the 1997 economic crisis, but also due to challenging > civil > engineering works of constructing massive underground structures deep in > the > water-logged soil upon which the city is built." Interesting. > Fortunately > we don't have those troubles in Dhaka (ahem!). > > As for cost, the Metro cost a mere US$ 2.75 billion for 21 km, or > US$130.95 > million per kilometer-just over twice that of the skytrain. Apparently > burrowing underground, dealing with flooding issues, providing > ventilation, > and so on is much more expensive than building above our heads. > Meanwhile, > again quoting Wikipedia, "ridership has settled down to around 180,000 > riders daily - considerably lower than projections of over 400,000, > despite > fares being slashed in half from 12-38 baht to 10-15 baht per trip. As > of > 2006, fares range between 14-36 baht per trip." With an exchange rate > as I > write of 32 baht to one US dollar, that's a mighty high fare. Good > thing > Bangladeshis are wealthier than Thais (??). > > Meanwhile, the anticipated cost for the BRT is 33.4 million for 36 > kilometers. Admittedly, anticipated costs are often far less than > actual > costs, but still, at US$0.93 million per kilometer, that's a bargain > compared to the Metro or the skytrain-even more so when considering it's > being built last, when prices are highest. At 67 times less than the > skytrain and 141 times less than the Metro, even with significant cost > increases, it will still be far more affordable than its public transit > predecessors. > > Of course, operational costs are another issue. Buses require fuel, > trains > electricity. Buses tend to require more maintenance, tires wear down > frequently, and buses have to be replaced far more often than trains. > While > it is cheaper to build a BRT system initially, the higher operational > costs > might mean that, in the long term, a tram system would be more > affordable-tram meaning street-level light rail, not something up in the > sky > or underground, which greatly multiplies the costs. > > Which is all to say, I'm all for public transit. So, apparently, are > Thais: > last I checked, hotels and housing advertise their proximity to the > various > public transit options. Apparently people are sick and tired of sitting > in > cars stuck in traffic jams. In public transit, you can sit back and > read a > book while you ride, look out the window (preferably not at tunnels), > eavesdrop on your neighbor's conversation, and otherwise amuse yourself > without risking crashing into someone once the traffic moves again. > > But when considering spending millions or billions on public transit, it > would make sense to invest it wisely, in a system that will be the most > extensive and least expensive, and thus offer the best value for the > money. > At 141 times per kilometer less to build BRT than Metro, we could both > have > a far more extensive system, meeting far more people's needs, and lower > fares. Sounds like a bargain to me! > > > > > > Syed Siful Alam Shovan > shovan1209@yahoo.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From sujit at vsnl.com Mon Feb 18 02:54:53 2008 From: sujit at vsnl.com (Sujit Patwardhan) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:24:53 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... In-Reply-To: <45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F06325688@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> References: <00a501c86f23$c7a24c60$56e6e520$%britton@ecoplan.org> <45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F06325684@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> <45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F06325688@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: <4cfd20aa0802170954g269d6a9cs6623d1022399947f@mail.gmail.com> Madhav, Thanks but they still don't work (for me at least). -- Sujit On Feb 17, 2008 11:07 PM, Madhav Badami, Prof. wrote: > Hello all, again, > > Our friend Sujit Patwardhan from Pune pointed out that the links that I > provided to the Pioneer articles don't work ... please try the ones below > (the links I provided earlier worked a week or so ago!). > > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 > > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 > > A minor correction to the sentence "The items in these newspapers not only > criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for > Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh > Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed > and conceptualized it." in the first paragraph of my posting; it should > read: "The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation > of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of > BRT. Besides, the Pioneer pieces personally attacked Dinesh Mohan of IIT > Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and > conceptualized it." > > Cheers, > > Madhav > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.orgon behalf of Madhav Badami, Prof. > Sent: Sun 2/17/2008 10:57 AM > To: Sustran Resource Centre > Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; > gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > Subject: [sustran] Sustainable transport and the media in India ... > > Greetings all, > > I thank Yasmin Chowdhury for her "Pricing public transit: learning from > Bangkok", and Saiful Alam (and Eric Britton) for posting it. Yasmin's piece, > and Lee's response to it, reminded me of the attack that some newspapers in > Delhi (chiefly The Pioneer and the Times of India) launched over several > days on the High Capacity Bus System (HCBS), the BRT system being currently > implemented there. The items in these newspapers not only criticized the > implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the > very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, > who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it. > > Two of the items, titled "Experts Order Serial Rape of Delhi Roads: > Mindless HCBS plan derails traffic, destroys greenery, leaves city gasping" > and "Will somebody wake up to stop this HCBS madness?", both of which > appeared as "investigation" pieces in The Pioneer on November 6 and 7, may > be accessed at: > > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 > > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 > > The Times of India, a leading English language national daily effectively > made the same claims as in the above items, in several pieces, including one > titled "Buses Hog Space, Cars Squeezed Out" on November 16. > > Feeling compelled to respond to these items (whose titles betray their > general tone and content), I wrote an article in which I attempted to rebut > them point by point, and sent it off to The Hindu, another leading English > language national daily. My article was not published as it was originally > written, because it was felt by the editor to be "polemical", and too long. > But he did publish (on December 5) a considerably condensed version in which > I removed specific references to the pieces in the Times of India and the > Pioneer. > > In the end, I was thankful for his decision, because, although it denied > me the opportunity to directly confront various specific claims made in the > pieces (such as, for example, that the decision to implement BRT was sold by > a cabal of experts to decision makers who accepted it in a hurry - actually, > it was approved after having been debated and scrutinized at length in > various official committees since the mid-1990s), it resulted in what I > believe is a more carefully argued and tightly focused article, which may be > accessed at: > > http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/05/stories/2007120553611000.htm > > Apart from arguing that BRT systems have the potential, when properly > designed and implemented, to be low cost mass transit solutions that are > appropriate for rapidly motorizing, low-income country cities, I placed the > issue of BRT (and more generally, mass transit) in a larger context, by > making the case that policies to appropriately price and curb personal motor > vehicle use, and provide accessibility for pedestrians and cyclists, are > important for enhancing the effectiveness of mass transit, allowing all > modes (including cars and other personal motor vehicles) to operate more > efficiently, mitigating rapidly worsening urban transport impacts, and > promoting social justice on our roads. > > My purpose is not only to share my article (to which I welcome your > critical comments) but also to demonstrate what we are up against in > confronting the elite interests represented and served by the mainstream > media (with their pro-car, highway, flyovers, and metro, and > anti-pedestrian, NMT and bus transit prejudices), and arguing for more > environmentally sustainable and socially equitable alternatives. It is > little wonder that the Tata Nano has been largely applauded in the same > media as the greatest thing since sliced bread (or, if you wish, masala > dosa) - including, as I recall, for the rural masses of this country, who > ostensibly have no unmet needs other than a 1-1.5 lakh rupee car. > > Cheers, > > Madhav > > ************************************************************************ > > "As for the future, your task is not to foresee, but to enable it." > Antoine de Saint-Exupery > > Madhav G. Badami, PhD > School of Urban Planning and McGill School of Environment > McGill University > Macdonald-Harrington Building > 815 Sherbrooke Street West > Montreal, QC, H3A 2K6, Canada > > Phone: 514-398-3183 (Work); 514-486-2370 (Home) > Fax: 514-398-8376; 514-398-1643 > URLs: www.mcgill.ca/urbanplanning > www.mcgill.ca/mse > e-mail: madhav.badami@mcgill.ca > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.orgon behalf of Carlosfelipe Pardo > Sent: Thu 2/14/2008 12:11 PM > To: Lee Schipper > Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; Sustran > Resource Centre; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > Subject: [sustran] Re: Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > > From living in Bangkok in 2005, I would say the best mode of transport > (not the cleanest, but the best) are the motorboats on the canals. If > Bangkok would "unearth" the rivers it has underground and developed a > real water-based transport system, it may be less expensive and more > efficient than many others. > > Incidentally, the river boats have similar routes to the Skytrain (on > the klong behind Sukkumvit at least), at 8 baht (20 us cent) for along > ride and 4 Baht (10 US cent) for a short ride (Bangkokians may confirm). > > And yes, the BTS is for tourists and visitors. > > Best regards, > > Carlosfelipe Pardo > Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator > GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) > Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 > Bogot? D.C., Colombia > Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 > carlos.pardo@gtz.de www.gtz.de > (carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org ) > > > > Lee Schipper wrote: > > My daughter lives near the Skytrain, which makes her apartment very > > accessible.. but others laughed and said "the Skytrain is for tourists > > and students". Whatever, it works for journeys along the corridor. Her > > building sends a shuttle, actually a small golf cart, to pick up > > visitors and residents for the last 750 meters. > > > > When moving there from a nearby hotel ona Saturday afternoon with > > baggage I made a mistake and took a cab. Took 50 minutes because of > > horrible traffic and one way streets. Skytrain would have taken 10 mins > > walk plus 4 minute ride. But I would have had to haul my bags up three > > stories of stairs because the sky train stop near my hotel did not have > > a lift or escalator, at least not one I could find. > > > > As for the metro, I'm told Thais do not like to ride underground, pure > > and simple. > > > > The real issue is in Yasmin's cost figures --- How much money would it > > cost to put in enough Skytrain and other rail lines to blanket the city? > > And what good would it do without real restraints on individual vehicle > > use -- widescale congestion pricing etc. > > > > Lee Schipper > > EMBARQ Fellow > > EMBARQ the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > > www.embarq.wri.org > > > > and > > > > Visiting Scholar, > > Univ of Calif Transport Center > > Berkeley CA > > www.uctc.net > > skype: mrmeter > > 510 642 6889 > > 202 262 7476 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > > Behalf Of eric.britton > > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:08 AM > > To: Sustran Resource Centre; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com > > Cc: shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > > Subject: [sustran] Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > > > From: Saiful Alam [mailto:shovan1209@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 15:03 > > > > > > > > > > > > Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > > > Yasmin Chowdhury > > > > When I first visited Bangkok in 1994, I got around the city mostly by > > bus. > > The buses were slow, the streets congested, and I soon learned that I > > could > > only make one plan for the morning and one for the afternoon, as it > > might > > take a couple hours to move about. > > > > Then the city started to build their skytrain. I waited with great > > anticipation for its completion. It seemed to require a lot more time > > and a > > lot more money (OK, just two years of delay and three times over budget) > > than originally anticipated, and the fares are admittedly quite high, > > but it > > was finally built-if never finished. (I saw an article in a Thai > > newspaper > > about people very upset that the planned line to their area had never > > been > > built; meanwhile, the pilings leading to the now domestic-only airport > > have > > been converted into advertising posts.) > > > > To be quite honest, I love the skytrain. Sure, the cement structure > > looming > > overhead is ugly. Sure, most of the stations lack escalators, making > > them > > inaccessible to those in wheelchairs, and exceedingly difficult for > > those > > lugging heavy bags or luggage. Sure, the two lines only cover a very > > limited portion of Bangkok. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, despite all > > the > > hassles, the trains are often packed. Sure, the stations are congested > > and > > I sometimes have to push through people to reach my train. But at least > > I > > can see a little of the city while I travel, and I can now get around to > > the > > stops on the line quickly, allowing myself to visit far more places in a > > day. > > > > Though the skytrain certainly makes moving around the city much easier > > (if > > you can afford it), it obviously didn't alleviate the congestion, as the > > government then opened a very limited subway system. The first time I > > tried > > to ride it, about a year after it opened, it was closed for two weeks > > due to > > an accident. I finally rode it a couple years after that, and > > discovered > > that it cost about US$0.50 to ride what it would take me ten minutes to > > walk. That seemed outrageous, and I don't love riding up and down long > > escalators and traveling in tunnels. Since the Metro doesn't seem to go > > much beyond the skytrain, I stick to the skytrain. > > > > But now, after spending billions of dollars on those mass transit > > systems, > > and despite having an existing extensive bus system, and more roads than > > most Asian cities of their level of economic development, the government > > is > > now planning bus rapid transit-a bit like a street-level trolley, but > > with > > buses instead of trams. Of course, that too is delayed-but the cost is > > a > > fraction of that for the skytrain and Metro. > > > > A more careful look at those costs reveals something interesting and of > > considerable relevance as Dhaka plans its public transit system. > > According > > to various Web sites, the skytrain, which opened in 1999, cost about > > US$1.5 > > billion for 24 kilometers. That amounts to US$62.5 million per > > kilometer. > > Of course, things were cheaper back then. > > > > Construction of the Metro began back in 1996, but it wasn't finished > > until > > 2004. According to Wikipedia, "The project suffered multiple delays not > > only because of the 1997 economic crisis, but also due to challenging > > civil > > engineering works of constructing massive underground structures deep in > > the > > water-logged soil upon which the city is built." Interesting. > > Fortunately > > we don't have those troubles in Dhaka (ahem!). > > > > As for cost, the Metro cost a mere US$ 2.75 billion for 21 km, or > > US$130.95 > > million per kilometer-just over twice that of the skytrain. Apparently > > burrowing underground, dealing with flooding issues, providing > > ventilation, > > and so on is much more expensive than building above our heads. > > Meanwhile, > > again quoting Wikipedia, "ridership has settled down to around 180,000 > > riders daily - considerably lower than projections of over 400,000, > > despite > > fares being slashed in half from 12-38 baht to 10-15 baht per trip. As > > of > > 2006, fares range between 14-36 baht per trip." With an exchange rate > > as I > > write of 32 baht to one US dollar, that's a mighty high fare. Good > > thing > > Bangladeshis are wealthier than Thais (??). > > > > Meanwhile, the anticipated cost for the BRT is 33.4 million for 36 > > kilometers. Admittedly, anticipated costs are often far less than > > actual > > costs, but still, at US$0.93 million per kilometer, that's a bargain > > compared to the Metro or the skytrain-even more so when considering it's > > being built last, when prices are highest. At 67 times less than the > > skytrain and 141 times less than the Metro, even with significant cost > > increases, it will still be far more affordable than its public transit > > predecessors. > > > > Of course, operational costs are another issue. Buses require fuel, > > trains > > electricity. Buses tend to require more maintenance, tires wear down > > frequently, and buses have to be replaced far more often than trains. > > While > > it is cheaper to build a BRT system initially, the higher operational > > costs > > might mean that, in the long term, a tram system would be more > > affordable-tram meaning street-level light rail, not something up in the > > sky > > or underground, which greatly multiplies the costs. > > > > Which is all to say, I'm all for public transit. So, apparently, are > > Thais: > > last I checked, hotels and housing advertise their proximity to the > > various > > public transit options. Apparently people are sick and tired of sitting > > in > > cars stuck in traffic jams. In public transit, you can sit back and > > read a > > book while you ride, look out the window (preferably not at tunnels), > > eavesdrop on your neighbor's conversation, and otherwise amuse yourself > > without risking crashing into someone once the traffic moves again. > > > > But when considering spending millions or billions on public transit, it > > would make sense to invest it wisely, in a system that will be the most > > extensive and least expensive, and thus offer the best value for the > > money. > > At 141 times per kilometer less to build BRT than Metro, we could both > > have > > a far more extensive system, meeting far more people's needs, and lower > > fares. Sounds like a bargain to me! > > > > > > > > > > > > Syed Siful Alam Shovan > > shovan1209@yahoo.com > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > > YAHOOGROUPS. > > > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- ------------------------------------------------------ Sujit Patwardhan sujit@vsnl.com sujitjp@gmail.com "Yamuna", ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007 India Tel: 25537955 ----------------------------------------------------- Hon. Secretary: Parisar www.parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------ Founder Member: PTTF (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum) www.pttf.net ------------------------------------------------------ From sudhir at secon.in Mon Feb 18 11:15:11 2008 From: sudhir at secon.in (Sudhir) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 07:45:11 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... "Discriminatory Media" Message-ID: <008001c871d4$175faa10$d607a8c0@Domain.secon.com> Dear All, I would also like to dig in Few days back I wrote an article for publication in Times of India - Bangalore edition where a section "A Big Idea" carried solutions for solving Bangalore Traffic Problems. I suggested immediate improvement of Footpaths and provision of cycle tracks. It never got published. But few days later an article came which suggested banning NMT. Week after week, I waited for my article but I saw the same stuff asking for improving parking supply, extending metro, banning NMT, signal coordination, elevated corridors. There is a nexus between media-politicians-public which each influencing other. Printed Media such as Newspaper has a tendency of a discrimination kind of attitude towards NMT promoters. To prove my point, I along with my colleague have carried out analysis of media-public perception while researching upon pedestrian issues, the extract of which I am attaching below Public and Media Perception It was decided to understand the public-media perception by making use of public forums available in the newspapers. Times of India is one of the most widely read newspapers in Bangalore. The newspaper carries a forum "My Times, My Voice" where the readers can suggest, complain about civic problems. The December month details for the year 2007 was collected to explore the public perception on pedestrian issues a.. Transportation infrastructure was the prime concern for the public with nearly 57.4% share. Of the transportation infrastructure share, pedestrians concerns were expressed by only 9.68%. The majority public was more concerned with issues concerned to roads (59.68%). The public perception and media perception follows the logic of egg and hen with each interlinked to other. The media perception was assessed by accumulating and classifying the articles on various infrastructure issues published in Times of India (pages 1-5) for the December month. a.. The analysis throws the result along expected lines with issues related to roads and motorists ruling with 47.76%. Media by and large has neglected the pedestrian issues with only 1.5% coverage. Media has raised public transportation and road safety issues with 37.3%. All this is happening in a city where one pedestrian is getting killed daily on Roads Regards Sudhir Project Engineer, Highways Div. SECON Pvt Ltd. 147, 7B Road, EPIP, Whitefield, Bangalore 560066 Ph: 080-41197778 (413) From madhav.g.badami at mcgill.ca Mon Feb 18 13:20:49 2008 From: madhav.g.badami at mcgill.ca (Madhav Badami, Prof.) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:20:49 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 54, Issue 16 References: <20080218030121.DFFD52D22A@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> Message-ID: <45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F06325689@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> Dear All, I do apologize for the persistent problems with the links. I have now reproduced the two articles I referred to -- they are both from The Pioneer, of November 6 and 7 respectively. Amazingly, The Pioneer carries an item even in today's paper, which I discovered only because I was trying to look up the previous two pieces, titled "Why separate lane when cycles banned on BSZ Marg?", which I have also reproduced -- in it, the author quotes a retired engineer of a PSU (Public Sector Unit), who says this about dedicated lanes for NMT: "But by the time these lanes are ready, the people belonging to this strata will own up (sic) if not a Nano, at least a scooter. Instead of being futuristic in planning, they are going back in times". And the article ends with this sentence: "Besides adding to the parking problem, the shrinking of space has led to huge chaos in 'Fleet Street'." They have obviously not heard that the Mayor who runs Fleet Street is planning a system of cycling superhighways -- I suppose the media here would consider that to be prehistoric, not merely "going back in times". All of this -- in a nation of pedestrians -- makes one want to weep. Madhav 'Experts' order serial rape of Delhi roads A Pioneer Investigation Mindless HCBS plan derails traffic, destroys greenery, leaves city gasping It is only time ordained "Hindu fatalism" that has prevented a public revolt against a hare-brained road transit project in Delhi that has caused untold misery to commuters along one of the city's principal arterial corridors. For the last 18 months or more, a lunatic plan to introduce the so-called High Capacity Bus System (HCBS) between ISBT in the north and Ambedkar Nagar (Khanpur) on Mehrauli-Badarpur Road in the south, has resulted in incredible mayhem, wanton damage to the environment, insufferable traffic snarls and a sharp rise in road accidents. But the worst is yet to come. Once this demented project is completed, one of the Capital's best traffic corridors will be in a shambles forever. Already the journey time of 45 minutes from ITO to Khanpur, a distance of 17 km, touches two hours at peak time. This despite the fact that the dedicated bus lanes are incomplete and all traffic currently uses the under-construction bus corridor, separated from the rest of the road by concrete dividers. When the project is finally implemented and the bus corridor becomes out-of-bounds for other vehicles, the congestion on the narrow lanes left for them can only be imagined. Brainchild of IIT Professor Dinesh Mohan who has never concealed his visceral hatred for private cars and flyovers, besides romanticising pre-liberalisation China's dependence on bicycles as the principal mode of urban transport, HCBS is only at its incipient stage. If such experts have their way, 13 other arterial corridors spanning the entire city shall be subjected to gangrape by greedy contractors with the benign blessings of rootless "experts" and supine babus. Four more have already been finalised although work is yet to begin on those. Although the political leadership is not blameless, it was probably tricked into approving this ludicrous idea mooted by the "experts" in the name of 'aam admi', rather than proactively promoting it. If you have had to travel from the Moolchand flyover along JB Tito Marg and further to Khanpur down the Dr Ambedkar Marg, any time during the last one-and-a-half years it must have been a harrowing experience. But what about people who live in highly congested residential colonies like Sheikh Sarai, Pushp Vihar, Madangir, Dakshin Puri or the much-maligned Sainik Farms? Here goes a typical example: You opt to drive along the divider-demarcated single lane after descending from the Moolchand flyover because the narrow strip on the left is already choc-a-bloc with traffic. After negotiating a treacherous path which is barely four feet wide and winds incomprehensively along, taking care to gingerly follow sputtering three-wheeled delivery vans and unruly two-wheelers (for there is no way you can overtake them with such a narrow opening), you confront complete chaos at the Archana crossing. Everybody uses the break from the dividers at this intersection to change lanes, and zig-zag across whatever is left of the once wide tree-lined avenue. On the perennially crowded Archana to Chirag Delhi flyover, problems multiply. Typically, an auto-rickshaw breaks down on the single lane, a truck on the other side stalls, or a car bangs into another. This is an everyday occurrence, no exaggeration. Since that blocks all traffic behind it on the single lane, you patiently wait for at least an hour for a crane to meander its way and remove the offending vehicle. Meanwhile, impatient but enterprising people tamper with the dividers (many are already broken) or remove barricades and infiltrate onto the wrong (right-hand) lane. That results in total commotion as oncoming traffic from the other side is forced to stop, causing road rage, exchange of unprintable abuse and sometimes fisticuffs. It's a matter of time before somebody whips out a revolver and shoots; this is just waiting to happen. Past Chirag, the confusion is confounded by the massive influx of slow-moving traffic - cycles, thelas, more auto-rickshaws and incredible number of pedestrians. This stretch was always chaotic but now it is unmitigated mayhem. With densely peopled lower middle class colonies flanking the road, cars are always parked on it. Till a few years ago, most people living in Pushp Vihar, Madangir and Dakshin Puri commuted either by bus or bicycle. Now almost every second household owns a two-wheeler and every third a Maruti 800 or Santro. The colonies' lanes are too narrow for cars to enter, leave alone be parked. So, they occupy nearly half the left hand lane, leaving barely enough space for vehicles to travel in single file at speeds ranging between 5 and 10 kmph. Meanwhile, the dedicated bus lane in the middle of the rather wide road has been given pride of place after the road was widened by felling innumerable trees, and relaying the surface with reinforced concrete - a job which has taken more than a year but remains incomplete. With all traffic signals suspended, 'might is right' prevails at intersections, especially the overcrowded Khanpur T-junction on the Mehrauli-Badarpur Road. ************************************************** Will somebody wake up to stop this HCBS madness? A Pioneer Investigation Ignoring police, 'experts' impose hawker-friendly middle-of-the-road bus stops, squeeze other traffic The most disconcerting aspect of the lunatic HCBS idea is the placement of bus stops in the centre of the road in those sections where the bus lanes run down the middle. In accordance with the Dinesh Mohan plan to provide dedicated corridors separated by dividers from the rest of the thoroughfare, they have already put in place a "model" bus stop bang in the middle of Dr Ambedkar Marg near the Madangir T-point. When the scheme becomes operational, passengers will be required to cross the road on either side to access the bus stop. In the best of times, this stretch is marked by unruly motorists/scooterists and even more unruly pedestrians. Once they are legitimately given the right to scamper across the road, the ensuing chaos can be easily visualised. Presumably, traffic lights will be installed to allow pedestrians to cross, thus further interrupting the flow of all other traffic at intervals of every km or less. Besides, Delhi pedestrians are not the most law-abiding people in the world; they believe it is their fundamental right to amble across a road anywhere, any time, especially if they spot a bus coming their way. So, we must resign ourselves to complete anarchy along HCBS corridors. Such was the pressure of "experts" that the Environment Pollution (Prevention and Control) Authority (EPCA) blissfully ignored the opinion of Delhi Police. EPCA's Report No 24 of July 24, 2006 notes, "The Delhi Traffic Police have some reservations regarding the current design. EPCA received a letter from Qamar Ahmed, Joint Commissioner of Police (dated May 17, 2006) on the need for additional space for private vehicles in the corridor." EPCA, however, decided that given the "significance and urgency" of the project, if difficulties were encountered at the implementation stage, it would call for "design adjustments". The inexplicable "urgency" does not stop here. Prof Dinesh Mohan's report self-righteously insists: "Presence of hawkers assists in maintaining a human presence around bus stops and this reduces possibilities of crimes. Bus stands need to be designed to provide facilities for hawkers, vendors and kiosks." All this in the middle of one of the city's most congested thoroughfares! With added pomposity, he writes, "Vendors often locate themselves at places that are natural markets for them... If the services provided by them were not required at those locations, they would have no incentive to continue staying there... Street vendors will remain inevitable and necessary. HCBS corridor designs would have to give due consideration to this issue." In support of his recipe for chaos, he approvingly endorses Professor Robert Cervero of the University of California at Berkeley, a votary of guided busways who bases his arguments on the experience of Essen (Germany), Adelaide (Australia), Edmonton (Alberta, Canada), Bellevue (a suburb of Seattle, US), Portland (Oregon, US) and Orange County (California, US). Do any of these cities have a population of 14 million? Do they have so many modes of transportation on their roads? Do their residents use roadways in as unruly a manner as residents of Indian cities? If guided busways were truly God's gift to mankind how come cities comparable to Delhi, such as Tokyo, Beijing, Shanghai, Cairo or Mexico City never toyed with the idea? The Delhi Government's Committee on Sustainable Transport (bamboozled no doubt by pedal-power fundamentalist Dinesh Mohan), also ensured the construction of separate cycle lanes on Dr Ambedkar Marg. The result is a 2.5 metre elevated concrete track for cycles, 6.6 metre dedicated busway in the centre and just 3 metres on either side of the bus corridor for other vehicular traffic: Just 3 metres! One does not have to be a crystal gazer to foresee the consequences of an accident or breakdown on such a narrow lane. The recommendations also include provision of a separate signalling system at intersections to make way for buses hurtling down the dedicated corridors. The rest of the traffic must accept its second-class status. If this is not vehicular apartheid, what is it? Once upon a time, there were dedicated cycle lanes along Aurobindo Marg going right up to Rajpath. Over time, cyclists found it inconvenient and spilled over onto the main thoroughfare. No cyclist can be spotted nowadays using even the service lane between Safdarjang flyover and the Prithviraj Road intersection. Moreover, yesterday's cyclists are today's two and four-wheeler owners. With automobile giants planning cars costing around Rs 1 lakh, bicycles are certain to get as outmoded here as they are in the West or today's China. Separate cycle lanes are fine, but where do cyclists go when they need to turn? But who dare argue with the seductive aam admi logic of jholawala "experts"? Prodded, regrettably, by a Supreme Court order of January 23, 2004 in response to a PIL by MC Mehta and others, the EPCA pledged acceleration of this scatterbrained "solution" to contain the city's burgeoning vehicle numbers. If there were ever a case of a solution being worse than the malaise, HCBS is a perfect example. >From the original recommendation of 14 HCBS corridors, the NCT Government has now narrowed it to five, selecting Nangloi-Shivaji Terminal, Azadpur-Nehru Place, Jahangirpuri-Old Delhi Railway Station and Anand Vihar-Shivaji Terminal in addition to Ambedkar Nagar (Khanpur)-ISBT. Each of the sectors chosen for what can only be termed serial rape is among the most densely populated areas of the city. It boggles the mind why the authorities chose to pander to the experts' egos and succumbed to their lobbying. The cost argument peddled by them against Metro rail is utterly specious since it does not take into account the loss of man-hours due to slowing down of traffic, the enhanced fuel costs consequent to this, harassment of commuters and residents, and the wanton damage to the environment with over 1,100 trees mercilessly felled to make way for just one corridor. What prevented the authorities from extending the Metro to cater to densely populated colonies beyond Outer Ring Road? The seamless manner in which DMRC constructed the Metro, taking it through the Walled City and Connaught Place proves its mastery at building a world-class transit system with minimum dislocation. Ironically, some of the proposed HCBS routes intend to run parallel to existing Metro corridors. In the 80s, when the Calcutta Metro was being built, a churlish, backward-looking Left Front Government declared it would reinstate trams on the surface after underground Metro work was complete. Mercifully, it saw the light eventually, and desisted from implementing the threat. Shouldn't the Delhi Government learn something from this? ************************************************* Why separate lane when cycles banned on BSZ Marg? Neha Attre | New Delhi The Bus Rapid Transit System (BRTS) has encroached upon the parking space at Bahadur Shah Zafar Marg to make way for cyclists, much to the inconvenience of regular office-goers in the area. Although the authorities have constructed dedicated Non-Motor Vehicle lane, they chose to overlook the fact that cycles and cycle-rickshaws are banned on that stretch. According to Delhi Traffic Police, ITO being one of the busiest intersections in the Capital, cycles and cycle-rickshaws are banned in the area. Still the BRTS is going ahead with construction of a segregated lane for cyclists and rickshaws. "This is a perfect case of authorities going insane. On one hand, they have banned the entry of cycles and rickshaws, and on the other, they are creating a dedicated track for them. I am not against cycle-wallahs or rickshaw-wallahs. But by the time these lanes are ready, the people belonging to this strata will own up if not a Nano, at least a scooter. Instead of being futuristic in planning, they are going back in times," said PL Mehta, a retired engineer of a leading PSU. To solve the parking crisis and to smoothen the flow of traffic in the area, ITO-Chungi flyover along with multi-layer parking is being planned. However, with the Delhi Urban Arts Commission still to give its nod for the proposed flyover, the parking is going to be a big problem. With no alternate space being provided by the Delhi Integrated Multi-Modal Transit System for parking, the office-goers and visitors in the area continue to be at the receiving end. For the construction of the NMV lane, the authorities have taken over 150 metres of BSZ Marg. This area was used for parking over a hundred vehicles. Besides adding to the parking problem, the shrinking of space has led to huge chaos in 'Fleet Street'. ************************************************************************ "As for the future, your task is not to foresee, but to enable it." Antoine de Saint-Exupery Madhav G. Badami, PhD School of Urban Planning and McGill School of Environment McGill University Macdonald-Harrington Building 815 Sherbrooke Street West Montreal, QC, H3A 2K6, Canada Phone: 514-398-3183 (Work); 514-486-2370 (Home) Fax: 514-398-8376; 514-398-1643 URLs: www.mcgill.ca/urbanplanning www.mcgill.ca/mse e-mail: madhav.badami@mcgill.ca -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of sustran-discuss-request@list.jca.apc.org Sent: Sun 2/17/2008 10:01 PM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 54, Issue 16 Send Sustran-discuss mailing list submissions to sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to sustran-discuss-request@list.jca.apc.org You can reach the person managing the list at sustran-discuss-owner@list.jca.apc.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Sustran-discuss digest..." ######################################################################## Sustran-discuss Mailing List Digest IMPORTANT NOTE: When replying please do not include the whole digest in your reply - just include the relevant part of the specific message that you are responding to. Many thanks. About this mailing list see: http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss ######################################################################## Today's Topics: 1. Sustainable transport and the media in India ... (Madhav Badami, Prof.) 2. Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... (Madhav Badami, Prof.) 3. Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... (Sujit Patwardhan) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:57:47 -0500 From: "Madhav Badami, Prof." Subject: [sustran] Sustainable transport and the media in India ... To: "Sustran Resource Centre" Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com, shovan1209@yahoo.com, gerardn@rhd.gov.bd Message-ID: <45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F06325684@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Greetings all, I thank Yasmin Chowdhury for her ?Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok?, and Saiful Alam (and Eric Britton) for posting it. Yasmin?s piece, and Lee?s response to it, reminded me of the attack that some newspapers in Delhi (chiefly The Pioneer and the Times of India) launched over several days on the High Capacity Bus System (HCBS), the BRT system being currently implemented there. The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it. Two of the items, titled ?Experts Order Serial Rape of Delhi Roads: Mindless HCBS plan derails traffic, destroys greenery, leaves city gasping? and ?Will somebody wake up to stop this HCBS madness??, both of which appeared as ?investigation? pieces in The Pioneer on November 6 and 7, may be accessed at: http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 The Times of India, a leading English language national daily effectively made the same claims as in the above items, in several pieces, including one titled ?Buses Hog Space, Cars Squeezed Out? on November 16. Feeling compelled to respond to these items (whose titles betray their general tone and content), I wrote an article in which I attempted to rebut them point by point, and sent it off to The Hindu, another leading English language national daily. My article was not published as it was originally written, because it was felt by the editor to be ?polemical?, and too long. But he did publish (on December 5) a considerably condensed version in which I removed specific references to the pieces in the Times of India and the Pioneer. In the end, I was thankful for his decision, because, although it denied me the opportunity to directly confront various specific claims made in the pieces (such as, for example, that the decision to implement BRT was sold by a cabal of experts to decision makers who accepted it in a hurry ? actually, it was approved after having been debated and scrutinized at length in various official committees since the mid-1990s), it resulted in what I believe is a more carefully argued and tightly focused article, which may be accessed at: http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/05/stories/2007120553611000.htm Apart from arguing that BRT systems have the potential, when properly designed and implemented, to be low cost mass transit solutions that are appropriate for rapidly motorizing, low-income country cities, I placed the issue of BRT (and more generally, mass transit) in a larger context, by making the case that policies to appropriately price and curb personal motor vehicle use, and provide accessibility for pedestrians and cyclists, are important for enhancing the effectiveness of mass transit, allowing all modes (including cars and other personal motor vehicles) to operate more efficiently, mitigating rapidly worsening urban transport impacts, and promoting social justice on our roads. My purpose is not only to share my article (to which I welcome your critical comments) but also to demonstrate what we are up against in confronting the elite interests represented and served by the mainstream media (with their pro-car, highway, flyovers, and metro, and anti-pedestrian, NMT and bus transit prejudices), and arguing for more environmentally sustainable and socially equitable alternatives. It is little wonder that the Tata Nano has been largely applauded in the same media as the greatest thing since sliced bread (or, if you wish, masala dosa) ? including, as I recall, for the rural masses of this country, who ostensibly have no unmet needs other than a 1-1.5 lakh rupee car. Cheers, Madhav ************************************************************************ "As for the future, your task is not to foresee, but to enable it." Antoine de Saint-Exupery Madhav G. Badami, PhD School of Urban Planning and McGill School of Environment McGill University Macdonald-Harrington Building 815 Sherbrooke Street West Montreal, QC, H3A 2K6, Canada Phone: 514-398-3183 (Work); 514-486-2370 (Home) Fax: 514-398-8376; 514-398-1643 URLs: www.mcgill.ca/urbanplanning www.mcgill.ca/mse e-mail: madhav.badami@mcgill.ca -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Carlosfelipe Pardo Sent: Thu 2/14/2008 12:11 PM To: Lee Schipper Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; Sustran Resource Centre; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd Subject: [sustran] Re: Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok From living in Bangkok in 2005, I would say the best mode of transport (not the cleanest, but the best) are the motorboats on the canals. If Bangkok would "unearth" the rivers it has underground and developed a real water-based transport system, it may be less expensive and more efficient than many others. Incidentally, the river boats have similar routes to the Skytrain (on the klong behind Sukkumvit at least), at 8 baht (20 us cent) for along ride and 4 Baht (10 US cent) for a short ride (Bangkokians may confirm). And yes, the BTS is for tourists and visitors. Best regards, Carlosfelipe Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 Bogot? D.C., Colombia Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 carlos.pardo@gtz.de www.gtz.de (carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org ) Lee Schipper wrote: > My daughter lives near the Skytrain, which makes her apartment very > accessible.. but others laughed and said "the Skytrain is for tourists > and students". Whatever, it works for journeys along the corridor. Her > building sends a shuttle, actually a small golf cart, to pick up > visitors and residents for the last 750 meters. > > When moving there from a nearby hotel ona Saturday afternoon with > baggage I made a mistake and took a cab. Took 50 minutes because of > horrible traffic and one way streets. Skytrain would have taken 10 mins > walk plus 4 minute ride. But I would have had to haul my bags up three > stories of stairs because the sky train stop near my hotel did not have > a lift or escalator, at least not one I could find. > > As for the metro, I'm told Thais do not like to ride underground, pure > and simple. > > The real issue is in Yasmin's cost figures --- How much money would it > cost to put in enough Skytrain and other rail lines to blanket the city? > And what good would it do without real restraints on individual vehicle > use -- widescale congestion pricing etc. > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > > and > > Visiting Scholar, > Univ of Calif Transport Center > Berkeley CA > www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > 510 642 6889 > 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of eric.britton > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:08 AM > To: Sustran Resource Centre; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com > Cc: shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > Subject: [sustran] Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > From: Saiful Alam [mailto:shovan1209@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 15:03 > > > > > > Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > Yasmin Chowdhury > > When I first visited Bangkok in 1994, I got around the city mostly by > bus. > The buses were slow, the streets congested, and I soon learned that I > could > only make one plan for the morning and one for the afternoon, as it > might > take a couple hours to move about. > > Then the city started to build their skytrain. I waited with great > anticipation for its completion. It seemed to require a lot more time > and a > lot more money (OK, just two years of delay and three times over budget) > than originally anticipated, and the fares are admittedly quite high, > but it > was finally built-if never finished. (I saw an article in a Thai > newspaper > about people very upset that the planned line to their area had never > been > built; meanwhile, the pilings leading to the now domestic-only airport > have > been converted into advertising posts.) > > To be quite honest, I love the skytrain. Sure, the cement structure > looming > overhead is ugly. Sure, most of the stations lack escalators, making > them > inaccessible to those in wheelchairs, and exceedingly difficult for > those > lugging heavy bags or luggage. Sure, the two lines only cover a very > limited portion of Bangkok. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, despite all > the > hassles, the trains are often packed. Sure, the stations are congested > and > I sometimes have to push through people to reach my train. But at least > I > can see a little of the city while I travel, and I can now get around to > the > stops on the line quickly, allowing myself to visit far more places in a > day. > > Though the skytrain certainly makes moving around the city much easier > (if > you can afford it), it obviously didn't alleviate the congestion, as the > government then opened a very limited subway system. The first time I > tried > to ride it, about a year after it opened, it was closed for two weeks > due to > an accident. I finally rode it a couple years after that, and > discovered > that it cost about US$0.50 to ride what it would take me ten minutes to > walk. That seemed outrageous, and I don't love riding up and down long > escalators and traveling in tunnels. Since the Metro doesn't seem to go > much beyond the skytrain, I stick to the skytrain. > > But now, after spending billions of dollars on those mass transit > systems, > and despite having an existing extensive bus system, and more roads than > most Asian cities of their level of economic development, the government > is > now planning bus rapid transit-a bit like a street-level trolley, but > with > buses instead of trams. Of course, that too is delayed-but the cost is > a > fraction of that for the skytrain and Metro. > > A more careful look at those costs reveals something interesting and of > considerable relevance as Dhaka plans its public transit system. > According > to various Web sites, the skytrain, which opened in 1999, cost about > US$1.5 > billion for 24 kilometers. That amounts to US$62.5 million per > kilometer. > Of course, things were cheaper back then. > > Construction of the Metro began back in 1996, but it wasn't finished > until > 2004. According to Wikipedia, "The project suffered multiple delays not > only because of the 1997 economic crisis, but also due to challenging > civil > engineering works of constructing massive underground structures deep in > the > water-logged soil upon which the city is built." Interesting. > Fortunately > we don't have those troubles in Dhaka (ahem!). > > As for cost, the Metro cost a mere US$ 2.75 billion for 21 km, or > US$130.95 > million per kilometer-just over twice that of the skytrain. Apparently > burrowing underground, dealing with flooding issues, providing > ventilation, > and so on is much more expensive than building above our heads. > Meanwhile, > again quoting Wikipedia, "ridership has settled down to around 180,000 > riders daily - considerably lower than projections of over 400,000, > despite > fares being slashed in half from 12-38 baht to 10-15 baht per trip. As > of > 2006, fares range between 14-36 baht per trip." With an exchange rate > as I > write of 32 baht to one US dollar, that's a mighty high fare. Good > thing > Bangladeshis are wealthier than Thais (??). > > Meanwhile, the anticipated cost for the BRT is 33.4 million for 36 > kilometers. Admittedly, anticipated costs are often far less than > actual > costs, but still, at US$0.93 million per kilometer, that's a bargain > compared to the Metro or the skytrain-even more so when considering it's > being built last, when prices are highest. At 67 times less than the > skytrain and 141 times less than the Metro, even with significant cost > increases, it will still be far more affordable than its public transit > predecessors. > > Of course, operational costs are another issue. Buses require fuel, > trains > electricity. Buses tend to require more maintenance, tires wear down > frequently, and buses have to be replaced far more often than trains. > While > it is cheaper to build a BRT system initially, the higher operational > costs > might mean that, in the long term, a tram system would be more > affordable-tram meaning street-level light rail, not something up in the > sky > or underground, which greatly multiplies the costs. > > Which is all to say, I'm all for public transit. So, apparently, are > Thais: > last I checked, hotels and housing advertise their proximity to the > various > public transit options. Apparently people are sick and tired of sitting > in > cars stuck in traffic jams. In public transit, you can sit back and > read a > book while you ride, look out the window (preferably not at tunnels), > eavesdrop on your neighbor's conversation, and otherwise amuse yourself > without risking crashing into someone once the traffic moves again. > > But when considering spending millions or billions on public transit, it > would make sense to invest it wisely, in a system that will be the most > extensive and least expensive, and thus offer the best value for the > money. > At 141 times per kilometer less to build BRT than Metro, we could both > have > a far more extensive system, meeting far more people's needs, and lower > fares. Sounds like a bargain to me! > > > > > > Syed Siful Alam Shovan > shovan1209@yahoo.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:37:32 -0500 From: "Madhav Badami, Prof." Subject: [sustran] Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... To: "Sustran Resource Centre" Message-ID: <45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F06325688@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello all, again, Our friend Sujit Patwardhan from Pune pointed out that the links that I provided to the Pioneer articles don't work ... please try the ones below (the links I provided earlier worked a week or so ago!). http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 A minor correction to the sentence "The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it." in the first paragraph of my posting; it should read: "The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of BRT. Besides, the Pioneer pieces personally attacked Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it." Cheers, Madhav -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Madhav Badami, Prof. Sent: Sun 2/17/2008 10:57 AM To: Sustran Resource Centre Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd Subject: [sustran] Sustainable transport and the media in India ... Greetings all, I thank Yasmin Chowdhury for her "Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok", and Saiful Alam (and Eric Britton) for posting it. Yasmin's piece, and Lee's response to it, reminded me of the attack that some newspapers in Delhi (chiefly The Pioneer and the Times of India) launched over several days on the High Capacity Bus System (HCBS), the BRT system being currently implemented there. The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it. Two of the items, titled "Experts Order Serial Rape of Delhi Roads: Mindless HCBS plan derails traffic, destroys greenery, leaves city gasping" and "Will somebody wake up to stop this HCBS madness?", both of which appeared as "investigation" pieces in The Pioneer on November 6 and 7, may be accessed at: http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 The Times of India, a leading English language national daily effectively made the same claims as in the above items, in several pieces, including one titled "Buses Hog Space, Cars Squeezed Out" on November 16. Feeling compelled to respond to these items (whose titles betray their general tone and content), I wrote an article in which I attempted to rebut them point by point, and sent it off to The Hindu, another leading English language national daily. My article was not published as it was originally written, because it was felt by the editor to be "polemical", and too long. But he did publish (on December 5) a considerably condensed version in which I removed specific references to the pieces in the Times of India and the Pioneer. In the end, I was thankful for his decision, because, although it denied me the opportunity to directly confront various specific claims made in the pieces (such as, for example, that the decision to implement BRT was sold by a cabal of experts to decision makers who accepted it in a hurry - actually, it was approved after having been debated and scrutinized at length in various official committees since the mid-1990s), it resulted in what I believe is a more carefully argued and tightly focused article, which may be accessed at: http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/05/stories/2007120553611000.htm Apart from arguing that BRT systems have the potential, when properly designed and implemented, to be low cost mass transit solutions that are appropriate for rapidly motorizing, low-income country cities, I placed the issue of BRT (and more generally, mass transit) in a larger context, by making the case that policies to appropriately price and curb personal motor vehicle use, and provide accessibility for pedestrians and cyclists, are important for enhancing the effectiveness of mass transit, allowing all modes (including cars and other personal motor vehicles) to operate more efficiently, mitigating rapidly worsening urban transport impacts, and promoting social justice on our roads. My purpose is not only to share my article (to which I welcome your critical comments) but also to demonstrate what we are up against in confronting the elite interests represented and served by the mainstream media (with their pro-car, highway, flyovers, and metro, and anti-pedestrian, NMT and bus transit prejudices), and arguing for more environmentally sustainable and socially equitable alternatives. It is little wonder that the Tata Nano has been largely applauded in the same media as the greatest thing since sliced bread (or, if you wish, masala dosa) - including, as I recall, for the rural masses of this country, who ostensibly have no unmet needs other than a 1-1.5 lakh rupee car. Cheers, Madhav ************************************************************************ "As for the future, your task is not to foresee, but to enable it." Antoine de Saint-Exupery Madhav G. Badami, PhD School of Urban Planning and McGill School of Environment McGill University Macdonald-Harrington Building 815 Sherbrooke Street West Montreal, QC, H3A 2K6, Canada Phone: 514-398-3183 (Work); 514-486-2370 (Home) Fax: 514-398-8376; 514-398-1643 URLs: www.mcgill.ca/urbanplanning www.mcgill.ca/mse e-mail: madhav.badami@mcgill.ca -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Carlosfelipe Pardo Sent: Thu 2/14/2008 12:11 PM To: Lee Schipper Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; Sustran Resource Centre; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd Subject: [sustran] Re: Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok From living in Bangkok in 2005, I would say the best mode of transport (not the cleanest, but the best) are the motorboats on the canals. If Bangkok would "unearth" the rivers it has underground and developed a real water-based transport system, it may be less expensive and more efficient than many others. Incidentally, the river boats have similar routes to the Skytrain (on the klong behind Sukkumvit at least), at 8 baht (20 us cent) for along ride and 4 Baht (10 US cent) for a short ride (Bangkokians may confirm). And yes, the BTS is for tourists and visitors. Best regards, Carlosfelipe Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 Bogot? D.C., Colombia Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 carlos.pardo@gtz.de www.gtz.de (carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org ) Lee Schipper wrote: > My daughter lives near the Skytrain, which makes her apartment very > accessible.. but others laughed and said "the Skytrain is for tourists > and students". Whatever, it works for journeys along the corridor. Her > building sends a shuttle, actually a small golf cart, to pick up > visitors and residents for the last 750 meters. > > When moving there from a nearby hotel ona Saturday afternoon with > baggage I made a mistake and took a cab. Took 50 minutes because of > horrible traffic and one way streets. Skytrain would have taken 10 mins > walk plus 4 minute ride. But I would have had to haul my bags up three > stories of stairs because the sky train stop near my hotel did not have > a lift or escalator, at least not one I could find. > > As for the metro, I'm told Thais do not like to ride underground, pure > and simple. > > The real issue is in Yasmin's cost figures --- How much money would it > cost to put in enough Skytrain and other rail lines to blanket the city? > And what good would it do without real restraints on individual vehicle > use -- widescale congestion pricing etc. > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > > and > > Visiting Scholar, > Univ of Calif Transport Center > Berkeley CA > www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > 510 642 6889 > 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of eric.britton > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:08 AM > To: Sustran Resource Centre; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com > Cc: shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > Subject: [sustran] Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > From: Saiful Alam [mailto:shovan1209@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 15:03 > > > > > > Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > Yasmin Chowdhury > > When I first visited Bangkok in 1994, I got around the city mostly by > bus. > The buses were slow, the streets congested, and I soon learned that I > could > only make one plan for the morning and one for the afternoon, as it > might > take a couple hours to move about. > > Then the city started to build their skytrain. I waited with great > anticipation for its completion. It seemed to require a lot more time > and a > lot more money (OK, just two years of delay and three times over budget) > than originally anticipated, and the fares are admittedly quite high, > but it > was finally built-if never finished. (I saw an article in a Thai > newspaper > about people very upset that the planned line to their area had never > been > built; meanwhile, the pilings leading to the now domestic-only airport > have > been converted into advertising posts.) > > To be quite honest, I love the skytrain. Sure, the cement structure > looming > overhead is ugly. Sure, most of the stations lack escalators, making > them > inaccessible to those in wheelchairs, and exceedingly difficult for > those > lugging heavy bags or luggage. Sure, the two lines only cover a very > limited portion of Bangkok. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, despite all > the > hassles, the trains are often packed. Sure, the stations are congested > and > I sometimes have to push through people to reach my train. But at least > I > can see a little of the city while I travel, and I can now get around to > the > stops on the line quickly, allowing myself to visit far more places in a > day. > > Though the skytrain certainly makes moving around the city much easier > (if > you can afford it), it obviously didn't alleviate the congestion, as the > government then opened a very limited subway system. The first time I > tried > to ride it, about a year after it opened, it was closed for two weeks > due to > an accident. I finally rode it a couple years after that, and > discovered > that it cost about US$0.50 to ride what it would take me ten minutes to > walk. That seemed outrageous, and I don't love riding up and down long > escalators and traveling in tunnels. Since the Metro doesn't seem to go > much beyond the skytrain, I stick to the skytrain. > > But now, after spending billions of dollars on those mass transit > systems, > and despite having an existing extensive bus system, and more roads than > most Asian cities of their level of economic development, the government > is > now planning bus rapid transit-a bit like a street-level trolley, but > with > buses instead of trams. Of course, that too is delayed-but the cost is > a > fraction of that for the skytrain and Metro. > > A more careful look at those costs reveals something interesting and of > considerable relevance as Dhaka plans its public transit system. > According > to various Web sites, the skytrain, which opened in 1999, cost about > US$1.5 > billion for 24 kilometers. That amounts to US$62.5 million per > kilometer. > Of course, things were cheaper back then. > > Construction of the Metro began back in 1996, but it wasn't finished > until > 2004. According to Wikipedia, "The project suffered multiple delays not > only because of the 1997 economic crisis, but also due to challenging > civil > engineering works of constructing massive underground structures deep in > the > water-logged soil upon which the city is built." Interesting. > Fortunately > we don't have those troubles in Dhaka (ahem!). > > As for cost, the Metro cost a mere US$ 2.75 billion for 21 km, or > US$130.95 > million per kilometer-just over twice that of the skytrain. Apparently > burrowing underground, dealing with flooding issues, providing > ventilation, > and so on is much more expensive than building above our heads. > Meanwhile, > again quoting Wikipedia, "ridership has settled down to around 180,000 > riders daily - considerably lower than projections of over 400,000, > despite > fares being slashed in half from 12-38 baht to 10-15 baht per trip. As > of > 2006, fares range between 14-36 baht per trip." With an exchange rate > as I > write of 32 baht to one US dollar, that's a mighty high fare. Good > thing > Bangladeshis are wealthier than Thais (??). > > Meanwhile, the anticipated cost for the BRT is 33.4 million for 36 > kilometers. Admittedly, anticipated costs are often far less than > actual > costs, but still, at US$0.93 million per kilometer, that's a bargain > compared to the Metro or the skytrain-even more so when considering it's > being built last, when prices are highest. At 67 times less than the > skytrain and 141 times less than the Metro, even with significant cost > increases, it will still be far more affordable than its public transit > predecessors. > > Of course, operational costs are another issue. Buses require fuel, > trains > electricity. Buses tend to require more maintenance, tires wear down > frequently, and buses have to be replaced far more often than trains. > While > it is cheaper to build a BRT system initially, the higher operational > costs > might mean that, in the long term, a tram system would be more > affordable-tram meaning street-level light rail, not something up in the > sky > or underground, which greatly multiplies the costs. > > Which is all to say, I'm all for public transit. So, apparently, are > Thais: > last I checked, hotels and housing advertise their proximity to the > various > public transit options. Apparently people are sick and tired of sitting > in > cars stuck in traffic jams. In public transit, you can sit back and > read a > book while you ride, look out the window (preferably not at tunnels), > eavesdrop on your neighbor's conversation, and otherwise amuse yourself > without risking crashing into someone once the traffic moves again. > > But when considering spending millions or billions on public transit, it > would make sense to invest it wisely, in a system that will be the most > extensive and least expensive, and thus offer the best value for the > money. > At 141 times per kilometer less to build BRT than Metro, we could both > have > a far more extensive system, meeting far more people's needs, and lower > fares. Sounds like a bargain to me! > > > > > > Syed Siful Alam Shovan > shovan1209@yahoo.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:24:53 +0530 From: "Sujit Patwardhan" Subject: [sustran] Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... To: "Madhav Badami, Prof." Cc: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Message-ID: <4cfd20aa0802170954g269d6a9cs6623d1022399947f@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Madhav, Thanks but they still don't work (for me at least). -- Sujit On Feb 17, 2008 11:07 PM, Madhav Badami, Prof. wrote: > Hello all, again, > > Our friend Sujit Patwardhan from Pune pointed out that the links that I > provided to the Pioneer articles don't work ... please try the ones below > (the links I provided earlier worked a week or so ago!). > > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 > > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 > > A minor correction to the sentence "The items in these newspapers not only > criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for > Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh > Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed > and conceptualized it." in the first paragraph of my posting; it should > read: "The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation > of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of > BRT. Besides, the Pioneer pieces personally attacked Dinesh Mohan of IIT > Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and > conceptualized it." > > Cheers, > > Madhav > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.orgon behalf of Madhav Badami, Prof. > Sent: Sun 2/17/2008 10:57 AM > To: Sustran Resource Centre > Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; > gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > Subject: [sustran] Sustainable transport and the media in India ... > > Greetings all, > > I thank Yasmin Chowdhury for her "Pricing public transit: learning from > Bangkok", and Saiful Alam (and Eric Britton) for posting it. Yasmin's piece, > and Lee's response to it, reminded me of the attack that some newspapers in > Delhi (chiefly The Pioneer and the Times of India) launched over several > days on the High Capacity Bus System (HCBS), the BRT system being currently > implemented there. The items in these newspapers not only criticized the > implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the > very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, > who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it. > > Two of the items, titled "Experts Order Serial Rape of Delhi Roads: > Mindless HCBS plan derails traffic, destroys greenery, leaves city gasping" > and "Will somebody wake up to stop this HCBS madness?", both of which > appeared as "investigation" pieces in The Pioneer on November 6 and 7, may > be accessed at: > > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 > > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 > > The Times of India, a leading English language national daily effectively > made the same claims as in the above items, in several pieces, including one > titled "Buses Hog Space, Cars Squeezed Out" on November 16. > > Feeling compelled to respond to these items (whose titles betray their > general tone and content), I wrote an article in which I attempted to rebut > them point by point, and sent it off to The Hindu, another leading English > language national daily. My article was not published as it was originally > written, because it was felt by the editor to be "polemical", and too long. > But he did publish (on December 5) a considerably condensed version in which > I removed specific references to the pieces in the Times of India and the > Pioneer. > > In the end, I was thankful for his decision, because, although it denied > me the opportunity to directly confront various specific claims made in the > pieces (such as, for example, that the decision to implement BRT was sold by > a cabal of experts to decision makers who accepted it in a hurry - actually, > it was approved after having been debated and scrutinized at length in > various official committees since the mid-1990s), it resulted in what I > believe is a more carefully argued and tightly focused article, which may be > accessed at: > > http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/05/stories/2007120553611000.htm > > Apart from arguing that BRT systems have the potential, when properly > designed and implemented, to be low cost mass transit solutions that are > appropriate for rapidly motorizing, low-income country cities, I placed the > issue of BRT (and more generally, mass transit) in a larger context, by > making the case that policies to appropriately price and curb personal motor > vehicle use, and provide accessibility for pedestrians and cyclists, are > important for enhancing the effectiveness of mass transit, allowing all > modes (including cars and other personal motor vehicles) to operate more > efficiently, mitigating rapidly worsening urban transport impacts, and > promoting social justice on our roads. > > My purpose is not only to share my article (to which I welcome your > critical comments) but also to demonstrate what we are up against in > confronting the elite interests represented and served by the mainstream > media (with their pro-car, highway, flyovers, and metro, and > anti-pedestrian, NMT and bus transit prejudices), and arguing for more > environmentally sustainable and socially equitable alternatives. It is > little wonder that the Tata Nano has been largely applauded in the same > media as the greatest thing since sliced bread (or, if you wish, masala > dosa) - including, as I recall, for the rural masses of this country, who > ostensibly have no unmet needs other than a 1-1.5 lakh rupee car. > > Cheers, > > Madhav > > ************************************************************************ > > "As for the future, your task is not to foresee, but to enable it." > Antoine de Saint-Exupery > > Madhav G. Badami, PhD > School of Urban Planning and McGill School of Environment > McGill University > Macdonald-Harrington Building > 815 Sherbrooke Street West > Montreal, QC, H3A 2K6, Canada > > Phone: 514-398-3183 (Work); 514-486-2370 (Home) > Fax: 514-398-8376; 514-398-1643 > URLs: www.mcgill.ca/urbanplanning > www.mcgill.ca/mse > e-mail: madhav.badami@mcgill.ca > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.orgon behalf of Carlosfelipe Pardo > Sent: Thu 2/14/2008 12:11 PM > To: Lee Schipper > Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; Sustran > Resource Centre; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > Subject: [sustran] Re: Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > > From living in Bangkok in 2005, I would say the best mode of transport > (not the cleanest, but the best) are the motorboats on the canals. If > Bangkok would "unearth" the rivers it has underground and developed a > real water-based transport system, it may be less expensive and more > efficient than many others. > > Incidentally, the river boats have similar routes to the Skytrain (on > the klong behind Sukkumvit at least), at 8 baht (20 us cent) for along > ride and 4 Baht (10 US cent) for a short ride (Bangkokians may confirm). > > And yes, the BTS is for tourists and visitors. > > Best regards, > > Carlosfelipe Pardo > Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator > GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) > Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 > Bogot? D.C., Colombia > Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 > carlos.pardo@gtz.de www.gtz.de > (carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org ) > > > > Lee Schipper wrote: > > My daughter lives near the Skytrain, which makes her apartment very > > accessible.. but others laughed and said "the Skytrain is for tourists > > and students". Whatever, it works for journeys along the corridor. Her > > building sends a shuttle, actually a small golf cart, to pick up > > visitors and residents for the last 750 meters. > > > > When moving there from a nearby hotel ona Saturday afternoon with > > baggage I made a mistake and took a cab. Took 50 minutes because of > > horrible traffic and one way streets. Skytrain would have taken 10 mins > > walk plus 4 minute ride. But I would have had to haul my bags up three > > stories of stairs because the sky train stop near my hotel did not have > > a lift or escalator, at least not one I could find. > > > > As for the metro, I'm told Thais do not like to ride underground, pure > > and simple. > > > > The real issue is in Yasmin's cost figures --- How much money would it > > cost to put in enough Skytrain and other rail lines to blanket the city? > > And what good would it do without real restraints on individual vehicle > > use -- widescale congestion pricing etc. > > > > Lee Schipper > > EMBARQ Fellow > > EMBARQ the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > > www.embarq.wri.org > > > > and > > > > Visiting Scholar, > > Univ of Calif Transport Center > > Berkeley CA > > www.uctc.net > > skype: mrmeter > > 510 642 6889 > > 202 262 7476 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > > Behalf Of eric.britton > > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:08 AM > > To: Sustran Resource Centre; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com > > Cc: shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > > Subject: [sustran] Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > > > From: Saiful Alam [mailto:shovan1209@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 15:03 > > > > > > > > > > > > Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > > > Yasmin Chowdhury > > > > When I first visited Bangkok in 1994, I got around the city mostly by > > bus. > > The buses were slow, the streets congested, and I soon learned that I > > could > > only make one plan for the morning and one for the afternoon, as it > > might > > take a couple hours to move about. > > > > Then the city started to build their skytrain. I waited with great > > anticipation for its completion. It seemed to require a lot more time > > and a > > lot more money (OK, just two years of delay and three times over budget) > > than originally anticipated, and the fares are admittedly quite high, > > but it > > was finally built-if never finished. (I saw an article in a Thai > > newspaper > > about people very upset that the planned line to their area had never > > been > > built; meanwhile, the pilings leading to the now domestic-only airport > > have > > been converted into advertising posts.) > > > > To be quite honest, I love the skytrain. Sure, the cement structure > > looming > > overhead is ugly. Sure, most of the stations lack escalators, making > > them > > inaccessible to those in wheelchairs, and exceedingly difficult for > > those > > lugging heavy bags or luggage. Sure, the two lines only cover a very > > limited portion of Bangkok. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, despite all > > the > > hassles, the trains are often packed. Sure, the stations are congested > > and > > I sometimes have to push through people to reach my train. But at least > > I > > can see a little of the city while I travel, and I can now get around to > > the > > stops on the line quickly, allowing myself to visit far more places in a > > day. > > > > Though the skytrain certainly makes moving around the city much easier > > (if > > you can afford it), it obviously didn't alleviate the congestion, as the > > government then opened a very limited subway system. The first time I > > tried > > to ride it, about a year after it opened, it was closed for two weeks > > due to > > an accident. I finally rode it a couple years after that, and > > discovered > > that it cost about US$0.50 to ride what it would take me ten minutes to > > walk. That seemed outrageous, and I don't love riding up and down long > > escalators and traveling in tunnels. Since the Metro doesn't seem to go > > much beyond the skytrain, I stick to the skytrain. > > > > But now, after spending billions of dollars on those mass transit > > systems, > > and despite having an existing extensive bus system, and more roads than > > most Asian cities of their level of economic development, the government > > is > > now planning bus rapid transit-a bit like a street-level trolley, but > > with > > buses instead of trams. Of course, that too is delayed-but the cost is > > a > > fraction of that for the skytrain and Metro. > > > > A more careful look at those costs reveals something interesting and of > > considerable relevance as Dhaka plans its public transit system. > > According > > to various Web sites, the skytrain, which opened in 1999, cost about > > US$1.5 > > billion for 24 kilometers. That amounts to US$62.5 million per > > kilometer. > > Of course, things were cheaper back then. > > > > Construction of the Metro began back in 1996, but it wasn't finished > > until > > 2004. According to Wikipedia, "The project suffered multiple delays not > > only because of the 1997 economic crisis, but also due to challenging > > civil > > engineering works of constructing massive underground structures deep in > > the > > water-logged soil upon which the city is built." Interesting. > > Fortunately > > we don't have those troubles in Dhaka (ahem!). > > > > As for cost, the Metro cost a mere US$ 2.75 billion for 21 km, or > > US$130.95 > > million per kilometer-just over twice that of the skytrain. Apparently > > burrowing underground, dealing with flooding issues, providing > > ventilation, > > and so on is much more expensive than building above our heads. > > Meanwhile, > > again quoting Wikipedia, "ridership has settled down to around 180,000 > > riders daily - considerably lower than projections of over 400,000, > > despite > > fares being slashed in half from 12-38 baht to 10-15 baht per trip. As > > of > > 2006, fares range between 14-36 baht per trip." With an exchange rate > > as I > > write of 32 baht to one US dollar, that's a mighty high fare. Good > > thing > > Bangladeshis are wealthier than Thais (??). > > > > Meanwhile, the anticipated cost for the BRT is 33.4 million for 36 > > kilometers. Admittedly, anticipated costs are often far less than > > actual > > costs, but still, at US$0.93 million per kilometer, that's a bargain > > compared to the Metro or the skytrain-even more so when considering it's > > being built last, when prices are highest. At 67 times less than the > > skytrain and 141 times less than the Metro, even with significant cost > > increases, it will still be far more affordable than its public transit > > predecessors. > > > > Of course, operational costs are another issue. Buses require fuel, > > trains > > electricity. Buses tend to require more maintenance, tires wear down > > frequently, and buses have to be replaced far more often than trains. > > While > > it is cheaper to build a BRT system initially, the higher operational > > costs > > might mean that, in the long term, a tram system would be more > > affordable-tram meaning street-level light rail, not something up in the > > sky > > or underground, which greatly multiplies the costs. > > > > Which is all to say, I'm all for public transit. So, apparently, are > > Thais: > > last I checked, hotels and housing advertise their proximity to the > > various > > public transit options. Apparently people are sick and tired of sitting > > in > > cars stuck in traffic jams. In public transit, you can sit back and > > read a > > book while you ride, look out the window (preferably not at tunnels), > > eavesdrop on your neighbor's conversation, and otherwise amuse yourself > > without risking crashing into someone once the traffic moves again. > > > > But when considering spending millions or billions on public transit, it > > would make sense to invest it wisely, in a system that will be the most > > extensive and least expensive, and thus offer the best value for the > > money. > > At 141 times per kilometer less to build BRT than Metro, we could both > > have > > a far more extensive system, meeting far more people's needs, and lower > > fares. Sounds like a bargain to me! > > > > > > > > > > > > Syed Siful Alam Shovan > > shovan1209@yahoo.com > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > > YAHOOGROUPS. > > > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- ------------------------------------------------------ Sujit Patwardhan sujit@vsnl.com sujitjp@gmail.com "Yamuna", ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007 India Tel: 25537955 ----------------------------------------------------- Hon. Secretary: Parisar www.parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------ Founder Member: PTTF (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum) www.pttf.net ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). End of Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 54, Issue 16 *********************************************** From simonb at teri.res.in Mon Feb 18 16:42:33 2008 From: simonb at teri.res.in (Simon Bishop) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:12:33 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 54, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: <20080218030120.1D1AC2C83E@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> Message-ID: Hi Madhav, I have been following much of the Times of India polemic over the BRT system these last few days. To highlight the danger of the road configuration they have focussed on a collision involving a grade separator and the death of a motorcyclist who had died at 3 a.m after a night without sleep and consumption of alcohol. Any road death is tragic. Our thoughts rest with this young man's family. At the same time the paper can't ignore the other 85,000 road deaths a year in India. Why single this death out and use it to rubbish the BRT? Most road deaths occur on high speed roads where pedestrians, cyclists and the disabled have no facility be it crossing or pavement. Some need to cross for their livelihoods, others because they want to walk or cycle (children especially), but all are always ignored by the traffic engineer as 'the elephant in the room', a problem to be designed out of existence. By contrast the BRT will have crossings. I propose that the Times of India, in the pursuit of balanced reporting, should write about the absence of a speed control strategy, or rather the presence of a speed encouragement strategy with flyovers and guard railings, lulling the motorist into a false aspiration that his journey will always be unencumbered. Where do you see guardrailings? At the racecourse. The lack of accessible pedestrian and cycle crossings only adds to the lethal cocktail and forces desperate measures. I look forward to the The Times of India campaign to educate drivers about the tragic consequences of speed and careless driving. I also look forward to the Times persuading drivers that they must face more congestion sooner or later and lobbying for accessible crossings that follow desire lines. Maybe someone could work out the journey time savings for all the beneficiaries and build an economic case for it?! sustran-discuss-r equest@list.jca.a pc.org To Sent by: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org sustran-discuss-b cc ounces+simonb=ter i.res.in@list.jca Subject .apc.org Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 54, Issue 16 02/18/2008 08:31 AM Please respond to sustran-discuss@l ist.jca.apc.org Send Sustran-discuss mailing list submissions to sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to sustran-discuss-request@list.jca.apc.org You can reach the person managing the list at sustran-discuss-owner@list.jca.apc.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Sustran-discuss digest..." ######################################################################## Sustran-discuss Mailing List Digest IMPORTANT NOTE: When replying please do not include the whole digest in your reply - just include the relevant part of the specific message that you are responding to. Many thanks. About this mailing list see: http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss ######################################################################## Today's Topics: 1. Sustainable transport and the media in India ... (Madhav Badami, Prof.) 2. Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... (Madhav Badami, Prof.) 3. Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... (Sujit Patwardhan) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:57:47 -0500 From: "Madhav Badami, Prof." Subject: [sustran] Sustainable transport and the media in India ... To: "Sustran Resource Centre" Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com, shovan1209@yahoo.com, gerardn@rhd.gov.bd Message-ID: <45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F06325684@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Greetings all, I thank Yasmin Chowdhury for her ?Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok?, and Saiful Alam (and Eric Britton) for posting it. Yasmin?s piece, and Lee?s response to it, reminded me of the attack that some newspapers in Delhi (chiefly The Pioneer and the Times of India) launched over several days on the High Capacity Bus System (HCBS), the BRT system being currently implemented there. The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it. Two of the items, titled ?Experts Order Serial Rape of Delhi Roads: Mindless HCBS plan derails traffic, destroys greenery, leaves city gasping? and ?Will somebody wake up to stop this HCBS madness??, both of which appeared as ?investigation? pieces in The Pioneer on November 6 and 7, may be accessed at: http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 The Times of India, a leading English language national daily effectively made the same claims as in the above items, in several pieces, including one titled ?Buses Hog Space, Cars Squeezed Out? on November 16. Feeling compelled to respond to these items (whose titles betray their general tone and content), I wrote an article in which I attempted to rebut them point by point, and sent it off to The Hindu, another leading English language national daily. My article was not published as it was originally written, because it was felt by the editor to be ?polemical?, and too long. But he did publish (on December 5) a considerably condensed version in which I removed specific references to the pieces in the Times of India and the Pioneer. In the end, I was thankful for his decision, because, although it denied me the opportunity to directly confront various specific claims made in the pieces (such as, for example, that the decision to implement BRT was sold by a cabal of experts to decision makers who accepted it in a hurry ? actually, it was approved after having been debated and scrutinized at length in various official committees since the mid-1990s), it resulted in what I believe is a more carefully argued and tightly focused article, which may be accessed at: http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/05/stories/2007120553611000.htm Apart from arguing that BRT systems have the potential, when properly designed and implemented, to be low cost mass transit solutions that are appropriate for rapidly motorizing, low-income country cities, I placed the issue of BRT (and more generally, mass transit) in a larger context, by making the case that policies to appropriately price and curb personal motor vehicle use, and provide accessibility for pedestrians and cyclists, are important for enhancing the effectiveness of mass transit, allowing all modes (including cars and other personal motor vehicles) to operate more efficiently, mitigating rapidly worsening urban transport impacts, and promoting social justice on our roads. My purpose is not only to share my article (to which I welcome your critical comments) but also to demonstrate what we are up against in confronting the elite interests represented and served by the mainstream media (with their pro-car, highway, flyovers, and metro, and anti-pedestrian, NMT and bus transit prejudices), and arguing for more environmentally sustainable and socially equitable alternatives. It is little wonder that the Tata Nano has been largely applauded in the same media as the greatest thing since sliced bread (or, if you wish, masala dosa) ? including, as I recall, for the rural masses of this country, who ostensibly have no unmet needs other than a 1-1.5 lakh rupee car. Cheers, Madhav ************************************************************************ "As for the future, your task is not to foresee, but to enable it." Antoine de Saint-Exupery Madhav G. Badami, PhD School of Urban Planning and McGill School of Environment McGill University Macdonald-Harrington Building 815 Sherbrooke Street West Montreal, QC, H3A 2K6, Canada Phone: 514-398-3183 (Work); 514-486-2370 (Home) Fax: 514-398-8376; 514-398-1643 URLs: www.mcgill.ca/urbanplanning www.mcgill.ca/mse e-mail: madhav.badami@mcgill.ca -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Carlosfelipe Pardo Sent: Thu 2/14/2008 12:11 PM To: Lee Schipper Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; Sustran Resource Centre; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd Subject: [sustran] Re: Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok From living in Bangkok in 2005, I would say the best mode of transport (not the cleanest, but the best) are the motorboats on the canals. If Bangkok would "unearth" the rivers it has underground and developed a real water-based transport system, it may be less expensive and more efficient than many others. Incidentally, the river boats have similar routes to the Skytrain (on the klong behind Sukkumvit at least), at 8 baht (20 us cent) for along ride and 4 Baht (10 US cent) for a short ride (Bangkokians may confirm). And yes, the BTS is for tourists and visitors. Best regards, Carlosfelipe Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 Bogot? D.C., Colombia Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 carlos.pardo@gtz.de www.gtz.de (carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org ) Lee Schipper wrote: > My daughter lives near the Skytrain, which makes her apartment very > accessible.. but others laughed and said "the Skytrain is for tourists > and students". Whatever, it works for journeys along the corridor. Her > building sends a shuttle, actually a small golf cart, to pick up > visitors and residents for the last 750 meters. > > When moving there from a nearby hotel ona Saturday afternoon with > baggage I made a mistake and took a cab. Took 50 minutes because of > horrible traffic and one way streets. Skytrain would have taken 10 mins > walk plus 4 minute ride. But I would have had to haul my bags up three > stories of stairs because the sky train stop near my hotel did not have > a lift or escalator, at least not one I could find. > > As for the metro, I'm told Thais do not like to ride underground, pure > and simple. > > The real issue is in Yasmin's cost figures --- How much money would it > cost to put in enough Skytrain and other rail lines to blanket the city? > And what good would it do without real restraints on individual vehicle > use -- widescale congestion pricing etc. > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > > and > > Visiting Scholar, > Univ of Calif Transport Center > Berkeley CA > www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > 510 642 6889 > 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of eric.britton > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:08 AM > To: Sustran Resource Centre; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com > Cc: shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > Subject: [sustran] Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > From: Saiful Alam [mailto:shovan1209@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 15:03 > > > > > > Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > Yasmin Chowdhury > > When I first visited Bangkok in 1994, I got around the city mostly by > bus. > The buses were slow, the streets congested, and I soon learned that I > could > only make one plan for the morning and one for the afternoon, as it > might > take a couple hours to move about. > > Then the city started to build their skytrain. I waited with great > anticipation for its completion. It seemed to require a lot more time > and a > lot more money (OK, just two years of delay and three times over budget) > than originally anticipated, and the fares are admittedly quite high, > but it > was finally built-if never finished. (I saw an article in a Thai > newspaper > about people very upset that the planned line to their area had never > been > built; meanwhile, the pilings leading to the now domestic-only airport > have > been converted into advertising posts.) > > To be quite honest, I love the skytrain. Sure, the cement structure > looming > overhead is ugly. Sure, most of the stations lack escalators, making > them > inaccessible to those in wheelchairs, and exceedingly difficult for > those > lugging heavy bags or luggage. Sure, the two lines only cover a very > limited portion of Bangkok. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, despite all > the > hassles, the trains are often packed. Sure, the stations are congested > and > I sometimes have to push through people to reach my train. But at least > I > can see a little of the city while I travel, and I can now get around to > the > stops on the line quickly, allowing myself to visit far more places in a > day. > > Though the skytrain certainly makes moving around the city much easier > (if > you can afford it), it obviously didn't alleviate the congestion, as the > government then opened a very limited subway system. The first time I > tried > to ride it, about a year after it opened, it was closed for two weeks > due to > an accident. I finally rode it a couple years after that, and > discovered > that it cost about US$0.50 to ride what it would take me ten minutes to > walk. That seemed outrageous, and I don't love riding up and down long > escalators and traveling in tunnels. Since the Metro doesn't seem to go > much beyond the skytrain, I stick to the skytrain. > > But now, after spending billions of dollars on those mass transit > systems, > and despite having an existing extensive bus system, and more roads than > most Asian cities of their level of economic development, the government > is > now planning bus rapid transit-a bit like a street-level trolley, but > with > buses instead of trams. Of course, that too is delayed-but the cost is > a > fraction of that for the skytrain and Metro. > > A more careful look at those costs reveals something interesting and of > considerable relevance as Dhaka plans its public transit system. > According > to various Web sites, the skytrain, which opened in 1999, cost about > US$1.5 > billion for 24 kilometers. That amounts to US$62.5 million per > kilometer. > Of course, things were cheaper back then. > > Construction of the Metro began back in 1996, but it wasn't finished > until > 2004. According to Wikipedia, "The project suffered multiple delays not > only because of the 1997 economic crisis, but also due to challenging > civil > engineering works of constructing massive underground structures deep in > the > water-logged soil upon which the city is built." Interesting. > Fortunately > we don't have those troubles in Dhaka (ahem!). > > As for cost, the Metro cost a mere US$ 2.75 billion for 21 km, or > US$130.95 > million per kilometer-just over twice that of the skytrain. Apparently > burrowing underground, dealing with flooding issues, providing > ventilation, > and so on is much more expensive than building above our heads. > Meanwhile, > again quoting Wikipedia, "ridership has settled down to around 180,000 > riders daily - considerably lower than projections of over 400,000, > despite > fares being slashed in half from 12-38 baht to 10-15 baht per trip. As > of > 2006, fares range between 14-36 baht per trip." With an exchange rate > as I > write of 32 baht to one US dollar, that's a mighty high fare. Good > thing > Bangladeshis are wealthier than Thais (??). > > Meanwhile, the anticipated cost for the BRT is 33.4 million for 36 > kilometers. Admittedly, anticipated costs are often far less than > actual > costs, but still, at US$0.93 million per kilometer, that's a bargain > compared to the Metro or the skytrain-even more so when considering it's > being built last, when prices are highest. At 67 times less than the > skytrain and 141 times less than the Metro, even with significant cost > increases, it will still be far more affordable than its public transit > predecessors. > > Of course, operational costs are another issue. Buses require fuel, > trains > electricity. Buses tend to require more maintenance, tires wear down > frequently, and buses have to be replaced far more often than trains. > While > it is cheaper to build a BRT system initially, the higher operational > costs > might mean that, in the long term, a tram system would be more > affordable-tram meaning street-level light rail, not something up in the > sky > or underground, which greatly multiplies the costs. > > Which is all to say, I'm all for public transit. So, apparently, are > Thais: > last I checked, hotels and housing advertise their proximity to the > various > public transit options. Apparently people are sick and tired of sitting > in > cars stuck in traffic jams. In public transit, you can sit back and > read a > book while you ride, look out the window (preferably not at tunnels), > eavesdrop on your neighbor's conversation, and otherwise amuse yourself > without risking crashing into someone once the traffic moves again. > > But when considering spending millions or billions on public transit, it > would make sense to invest it wisely, in a system that will be the most > extensive and least expensive, and thus offer the best value for the > money. > At 141 times per kilometer less to build BRT than Metro, we could both > have > a far more extensive system, meeting far more people's needs, and lower > fares. Sounds like a bargain to me! > > > > > > Syed Siful Alam Shovan > shovan1209@yahoo.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:37:32 -0500 From: "Madhav Badami, Prof." Subject: [sustran] Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... To: "Sustran Resource Centre" Message-ID: <45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F06325688@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello all, again, Our friend Sujit Patwardhan from Pune pointed out that the links that I provided to the Pioneer articles don't work ... please try the ones below (the links I provided earlier worked a week or so ago!). http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 A minor correction to the sentence "The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it." in the first paragraph of my posting; it should read: "The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of BRT. Besides, the Pioneer pieces personally attacked Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it." Cheers, Madhav -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Madhav Badami, Prof. Sent: Sun 2/17/2008 10:57 AM To: Sustran Resource Centre Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd Subject: [sustran] Sustainable transport and the media in India ... Greetings all, I thank Yasmin Chowdhury for her "Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok", and Saiful Alam (and Eric Britton) for posting it. Yasmin's piece, and Lee's response to it, reminded me of the attack that some newspapers in Delhi (chiefly The Pioneer and the Times of India) launched over several days on the High Capacity Bus System (HCBS), the BRT system being currently implemented there. The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it. Two of the items, titled "Experts Order Serial Rape of Delhi Roads: Mindless HCBS plan derails traffic, destroys greenery, leaves city gasping" and "Will somebody wake up to stop this HCBS madness?", both of which appeared as "investigation" pieces in The Pioneer on November 6 and 7, may be accessed at: http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 The Times of India, a leading English language national daily effectively made the same claims as in the above items, in several pieces, including one titled "Buses Hog Space, Cars Squeezed Out" on November 16. Feeling compelled to respond to these items (whose titles betray their general tone and content), I wrote an article in which I attempted to rebut them point by point, and sent it off to The Hindu, another leading English language national daily. My article was not published as it was originally written, because it was felt by the editor to be "polemical", and too long. But he did publish (on December 5) a considerably condensed version in which I removed specific references to the pieces in the Times of India and the Pioneer. In the end, I was thankful for his decision, because, although it denied me the opportunity to directly confront various specific claims made in the pieces (such as, for example, that the decision to implement BRT was sold by a cabal of experts to decision makers who accepted it in a hurry - actually, it was approved after having been debated and scrutinized at length in various official committees since the mid-1990s), it resulted in what I believe is a more carefully argued and tightly focused article, which may be accessed at: http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/05/stories/2007120553611000.htm Apart from arguing that BRT systems have the potential, when properly designed and implemented, to be low cost mass transit solutions that are appropriate for rapidly motorizing, low-income country cities, I placed the issue of BRT (and more generally, mass transit) in a larger context, by making the case that policies to appropriately price and curb personal motor vehicle use, and provide accessibility for pedestrians and cyclists, are important for enhancing the effectiveness of mass transit, allowing all modes (including cars and other personal motor vehicles) to operate more efficiently, mitigating rapidly worsening urban transport impacts, and promoting social justice on our roads. My purpose is not only to share my article (to which I welcome your critical comments) but also to demonstrate what we are up against in confronting the elite interests represented and served by the mainstream media (with their pro-car, highway, flyovers, and metro, and anti-pedestrian, NMT and bus transit prejudices), and arguing for more environmentally sustainable and socially equitable alternatives. It is little wonder that the Tata Nano has been largely applauded in the same media as the greatest thing since sliced bread (or, if you wish, masala dosa) - including, as I recall, for the rural masses of this country, who ostensibly have no unmet needs other than a 1-1.5 lakh rupee car. Cheers, Madhav ************************************************************************ "As for the future, your task is not to foresee, but to enable it." Antoine de Saint-Exupery Madhav G. Badami, PhD School of Urban Planning and McGill School of Environment McGill University Macdonald-Harrington Building 815 Sherbrooke Street West Montreal, QC, H3A 2K6, Canada Phone: 514-398-3183 (Work); 514-486-2370 (Home) Fax: 514-398-8376; 514-398-1643 URLs: www.mcgill.ca/urbanplanning www.mcgill.ca/mse e-mail: madhav.badami@mcgill.ca -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Carlosfelipe Pardo Sent: Thu 2/14/2008 12:11 PM To: Lee Schipper Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; Sustran Resource Centre; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd Subject: [sustran] Re: Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok From living in Bangkok in 2005, I would say the best mode of transport (not the cleanest, but the best) are the motorboats on the canals. If Bangkok would "unearth" the rivers it has underground and developed a real water-based transport system, it may be less expensive and more efficient than many others. Incidentally, the river boats have similar routes to the Skytrain (on the klong behind Sukkumvit at least), at 8 baht (20 us cent) for along ride and 4 Baht (10 US cent) for a short ride (Bangkokians may confirm). And yes, the BTS is for tourists and visitors. Best regards, Carlosfelipe Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 Bogot? D.C., Colombia Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 carlos.pardo@gtz.de www.gtz.de (carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org ) Lee Schipper wrote: > My daughter lives near the Skytrain, which makes her apartment very > accessible.. but others laughed and said "the Skytrain is for tourists > and students". Whatever, it works for journeys along the corridor. Her > building sends a shuttle, actually a small golf cart, to pick up > visitors and residents for the last 750 meters. > > When moving there from a nearby hotel ona Saturday afternoon with > baggage I made a mistake and took a cab. Took 50 minutes because of > horrible traffic and one way streets. Skytrain would have taken 10 mins > walk plus 4 minute ride. But I would have had to haul my bags up three > stories of stairs because the sky train stop near my hotel did not have > a lift or escalator, at least not one I could find. > > As for the metro, I'm told Thais do not like to ride underground, pure > and simple. > > The real issue is in Yasmin's cost figures --- How much money would it > cost to put in enough Skytrain and other rail lines to blanket the city? > And what good would it do without real restraints on individual vehicle > use -- widescale congestion pricing etc. > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > > and > > Visiting Scholar, > Univ of Calif Transport Center > Berkeley CA > www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > 510 642 6889 > 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of eric.britton > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:08 AM > To: Sustran Resource Centre; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com > Cc: shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > Subject: [sustran] Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > From: Saiful Alam [mailto:shovan1209@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 15:03 > > > > > > Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > Yasmin Chowdhury > > When I first visited Bangkok in 1994, I got around the city mostly by > bus. > The buses were slow, the streets congested, and I soon learned that I > could > only make one plan for the morning and one for the afternoon, as it > might > take a couple hours to move about. > > Then the city started to build their skytrain. I waited with great > anticipation for its completion. It seemed to require a lot more time > and a > lot more money (OK, just two years of delay and three times over budget) > than originally anticipated, and the fares are admittedly quite high, > but it > was finally built-if never finished. (I saw an article in a Thai > newspaper > about people very upset that the planned line to their area had never > been > built; meanwhile, the pilings leading to the now domestic-only airport > have > been converted into advertising posts.) > > To be quite honest, I love the skytrain. Sure, the cement structure > looming > overhead is ugly. Sure, most of the stations lack escalators, making > them > inaccessible to those in wheelchairs, and exceedingly difficult for > those > lugging heavy bags or luggage. Sure, the two lines only cover a very > limited portion of Bangkok. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, despite all > the > hassles, the trains are often packed. Sure, the stations are congested > and > I sometimes have to push through people to reach my train. But at least > I > can see a little of the city while I travel, and I can now get around to > the > stops on the line quickly, allowing myself to visit far more places in a > day. > > Though the skytrain certainly makes moving around the city much easier > (if > you can afford it), it obviously didn't alleviate the congestion, as the > government then opened a very limited subway system. The first time I > tried > to ride it, about a year after it opened, it was closed for two weeks > due to > an accident. I finally rode it a couple years after that, and > discovered > that it cost about US$0.50 to ride what it would take me ten minutes to > walk. That seemed outrageous, and I don't love riding up and down long > escalators and traveling in tunnels. Since the Metro doesn't seem to go > much beyond the skytrain, I stick to the skytrain. > > But now, after spending billions of dollars on those mass transit > systems, > and despite having an existing extensive bus system, and more roads than > most Asian cities of their level of economic development, the government > is > now planning bus rapid transit-a bit like a street-level trolley, but > with > buses instead of trams. Of course, that too is delayed-but the cost is > a > fraction of that for the skytrain and Metro. > > A more careful look at those costs reveals something interesting and of > considerable relevance as Dhaka plans its public transit system. > According > to various Web sites, the skytrain, which opened in 1999, cost about > US$1.5 > billion for 24 kilometers. That amounts to US$62.5 million per > kilometer. > Of course, things were cheaper back then. > > Construction of the Metro began back in 1996, but it wasn't finished > until > 2004. According to Wikipedia, "The project suffered multiple delays not > only because of the 1997 economic crisis, but also due to challenging > civil > engineering works of constructing massive underground structures deep in > the > water-logged soil upon which the city is built." Interesting. > Fortunately > we don't have those troubles in Dhaka (ahem!). > > As for cost, the Metro cost a mere US$ 2.75 billion for 21 km, or > US$130.95 > million per kilometer-just over twice that of the skytrain. Apparently > burrowing underground, dealing with flooding issues, providing > ventilation, > and so on is much more expensive than building above our heads. > Meanwhile, > again quoting Wikipedia, "ridership has settled down to around 180,000 > riders daily - considerably lower than projections of over 400,000, > despite > fares being slashed in half from 12-38 baht to 10-15 baht per trip. As > of > 2006, fares range between 14-36 baht per trip." With an exchange rate > as I > write of 32 baht to one US dollar, that's a mighty high fare. Good > thing > Bangladeshis are wealthier than Thais (??). > > Meanwhile, the anticipated cost for the BRT is 33.4 million for 36 > kilometers. Admittedly, anticipated costs are often far less than > actual > costs, but still, at US$0.93 million per kilometer, that's a bargain > compared to the Metro or the skytrain-even more so when considering it's > being built last, when prices are highest. At 67 times less than the > skytrain and 141 times less than the Metro, even with significant cost > increases, it will still be far more affordable than its public transit > predecessors. > > Of course, operational costs are another issue. Buses require fuel, > trains > electricity. Buses tend to require more maintenance, tires wear down > frequently, and buses have to be replaced far more often than trains. > While > it is cheaper to build a BRT system initially, the higher operational > costs > might mean that, in the long term, a tram system would be more > affordable-tram meaning street-level light rail, not something up in the > sky > or underground, which greatly multiplies the costs. > > Which is all to say, I'm all for public transit. So, apparently, are > Thais: > last I checked, hotels and housing advertise their proximity to the > various > public transit options. Apparently people are sick and tired of sitting > in > cars stuck in traffic jams. In public transit, you can sit back and > read a > book while you ride, look out the window (preferably not at tunnels), > eavesdrop on your neighbor's conversation, and otherwise amuse yourself > without risking crashing into someone once the traffic moves again. > > But when considering spending millions or billions on public transit, it > would make sense to invest it wisely, in a system that will be the most > extensive and least expensive, and thus offer the best value for the > money. > At 141 times per kilometer less to build BRT than Metro, we could both > have > a far more extensive system, meeting far more people's needs, and lower > fares. Sounds like a bargain to me! > > > > > > Syed Siful Alam Shovan > shovan1209@yahoo.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:24:53 +0530 From: "Sujit Patwardhan" Subject: [sustran] Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... To: "Madhav Badami, Prof." Cc: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Message-ID: <4cfd20aa0802170954g269d6a9cs6623d1022399947f@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Madhav, Thanks but they still don't work (for me at least). -- Sujit On Feb 17, 2008 11:07 PM, Madhav Badami, Prof. wrote: > Hello all, again, > > Our friend Sujit Patwardhan from Pune pointed out that the links that I > provided to the Pioneer articles don't work ... please try the ones below > (the links I provided earlier worked a week or so ago!). > > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 > > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 > > A minor correction to the sentence "The items in these newspapers not only > criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for > Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh > Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed > and conceptualized it." in the first paragraph of my posting; it should > read: "The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation > of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of > BRT. Besides, the Pioneer pieces personally attacked Dinesh Mohan of IIT > Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and > conceptualized it." > > Cheers, > > Madhav > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.orgon behalf of Madhav Badami, Prof. > Sent: Sun 2/17/2008 10:57 AM > To: Sustran Resource Centre > Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; > gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > Subject: [sustran] Sustainable transport and the media in India ... > > Greetings all, > > I thank Yasmin Chowdhury for her "Pricing public transit: learning from > Bangkok", and Saiful Alam (and Eric Britton) for posting it. Yasmin's piece, > and Lee's response to it, reminded me of the attack that some newspapers in > Delhi (chiefly The Pioneer and the Times of India) launched over several > days on the High Capacity Bus System (HCBS), the BRT system being currently > implemented there. The items in these newspapers not only criticized the > implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the > very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, > who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it. > > Two of the items, titled "Experts Order Serial Rape of Delhi Roads: > Mindless HCBS plan derails traffic, destroys greenery, leaves city gasping" > and "Will somebody wake up to stop this HCBS madness?", both of which > appeared as "investigation" pieces in The Pioneer on November 6 and 7, may > be accessed at: > > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 > > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 > > The Times of India, a leading English language national daily effectively > made the same claims as in the above items, in several pieces, including one > titled "Buses Hog Space, Cars Squeezed Out" on November 16. > > Feeling compelled to respond to these items (whose titles betray their > general tone and content), I wrote an article in which I attempted to rebut > them point by point, and sent it off to The Hindu, another leading English > language national daily. My article was not published as it was originally > written, because it was felt by the editor to be "polemical", and too long. > But he did publish (on December 5) a considerably condensed version in which > I removed specific references to the pieces in the Times of India and the > Pioneer. > > In the end, I was thankful for his decision, because, although it denied > me the opportunity to directly confront various specific claims made in the > pieces (such as, for example, that the decision to implement BRT was sold by > a cabal of experts to decision makers who accepted it in a hurry - actually, > it was approved after having been debated and scrutinized at length in > various official committees since the mid-1990s), it resulted in what I > believe is a more carefully argued and tightly focused article, which may be > accessed at: > > http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/05/stories/2007120553611000.htm > > Apart from arguing that BRT systems have the potential, when properly > designed and implemented, to be low cost mass transit solutions that are > appropriate for rapidly motorizing, low-income country cities, I placed the > issue of BRT (and more generally, mass transit) in a larger context, by > making the case that policies to appropriately price and curb personal motor > vehicle use, and provide accessibility for pedestrians and cyclists, are > important for enhancing the effectiveness of mass transit, allowing all > modes (including cars and other personal motor vehicles) to operate more > efficiently, mitigating rapidly worsening urban transport impacts, and > promoting social justice on our roads. > > My purpose is not only to share my article (to which I welcome your > critical comments) but also to demonstrate what we are up against in > confronting the elite interests represented and served by the mainstream > media (with their pro-car, highway, flyovers, and metro, and > anti-pedestrian, NMT and bus transit prejudices), and arguing for more > environmentally sustainable and socially equitable alternatives. It is > little wonder that the Tata Nano has been largely applauded in the same > media as the greatest thing since sliced bread (or, if you wish, masala > dosa) - including, as I recall, for the rural masses of this country, who > ostensibly have no unmet needs other than a 1-1.5 lakh rupee car. > > Cheers, > > Madhav > > ************************************************************************ > > "As for the future, your task is not to foresee, but to enable it." > Antoine de Saint-Exupery > > Madhav G. Badami, PhD > School of Urban Planning and McGill School of Environment > McGill University > Macdonald-Harrington Building > 815 Sherbrooke Street West > Montreal, QC, H3A 2K6, Canada > > Phone: 514-398-3183 (Work); 514-486-2370 (Home) > Fax: 514-398-8376; 514-398-1643 > URLs: www.mcgill.ca/urbanplanning > www.mcgill.ca/mse > e-mail: madhav.badami@mcgill.ca > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.orgon behalf of Carlosfelipe Pardo > Sent: Thu 2/14/2008 12:11 PM > To: Lee Schipper > Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; Sustran > Resource Centre; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > Subject: [sustran] Re: Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > > From living in Bangkok in 2005, I would say the best mode of transport > (not the cleanest, but the best) are the motorboats on the canals. If > Bangkok would "unearth" the rivers it has underground and developed a > real water-based transport system, it may be less expensive and more > efficient than many others. > > Incidentally, the river boats have similar routes to the Skytrain (on > the klong behind Sukkumvit at least), at 8 baht (20 us cent) for along > ride and 4 Baht (10 US cent) for a short ride (Bangkokians may confirm). > > And yes, the BTS is for tourists and visitors. > > Best regards, > > Carlosfelipe Pardo > Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator > GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) > Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 > Bogot? D.C., Colombia > Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 > carlos.pardo@gtz.de www.gtz.de > (carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org ) > > > > Lee Schipper wrote: > > My daughter lives near the Skytrain, which makes her apartment very > > accessible.. but others laughed and said "the Skytrain is for tourists > > and students". Whatever, it works for journeys along the corridor. Her > > building sends a shuttle, actually a small golf cart, to pick up > > visitors and residents for the last 750 meters. > > > > When moving there from a nearby hotel ona Saturday afternoon with > > baggage I made a mistake and took a cab. Took 50 minutes because of > > horrible traffic and one way streets. Skytrain would have taken 10 mins > > walk plus 4 minute ride. But I would have had to haul my bags up three > > stories of stairs because the sky train stop near my hotel did not have > > a lift or escalator, at least not one I could find. > > > > As for the metro, I'm told Thais do not like to ride underground, pure > > and simple. > > > > The real issue is in Yasmin's cost figures --- How much money would it > > cost to put in enough Skytrain and other rail lines to blanket the city? > > And what good would it do without real restraints on individual vehicle > > use -- widescale congestion pricing etc. > > > > Lee Schipper > > EMBARQ Fellow > > EMBARQ the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > > www.embarq.wri.org > > > > and > > > > Visiting Scholar, > > Univ of Calif Transport Center > > Berkeley CA > > www.uctc.net > > skype: mrmeter > > 510 642 6889 > > 202 262 7476 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > > Behalf Of eric.britton > > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:08 AM > > To: Sustran Resource Centre; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com > > Cc: shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > > Subject: [sustran] Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > > > From: Saiful Alam [mailto:shovan1209@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 15:03 > > > > > > > > > > > > Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > > > Yasmin Chowdhury > > > > When I first visited Bangkok in 1994, I got around the city mostly by > > bus. > > The buses were slow, the streets congested, and I soon learned that I > > could > > only make one plan for the morning and one for the afternoon, as it > > might > > take a couple hours to move about. > > > > Then the city started to build their skytrain. I waited with great > > anticipation for its completion. It seemed to require a lot more time > > and a > > lot more money (OK, just two years of delay and three times over budget) > > than originally anticipated, and the fares are admittedly quite high, > > but it > > was finally built-if never finished. (I saw an article in a Thai > > newspaper > > about people very upset that the planned line to their area had never > > been > > built; meanwhile, the pilings leading to the now domestic-only airport > > have > > been converted into advertising posts.) > > > > To be quite honest, I love the skytrain. Sure, the cement structure > > looming > > overhead is ugly. Sure, most of the stations lack escalators, making > > them > > inaccessible to those in wheelchairs, and exceedingly difficult for > > those > > lugging heavy bags or luggage. Sure, the two lines only cover a very > > limited portion of Bangkok. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, despite all > > the > > hassles, the trains are often packed. Sure, the stations are congested > > and > > I sometimes have to push through people to reach my train. But at least > > I > > can see a little of the city while I travel, and I can now get around to > > the > > stops on the line quickly, allowing myself to visit far more places in a > > day. > > > > Though the skytrain certainly makes moving around the city much easier > > (if > > you can afford it), it obviously didn't alleviate the congestion, as the > > government then opened a very limited subway system. The first time I > > tried > > to ride it, about a year after it opened, it was closed for two weeks > > due to > > an accident. I finally rode it a couple years after that, and > > discovered > > that it cost about US$0.50 to ride what it would take me ten minutes to > > walk. That seemed outrageous, and I don't love riding up and down long > > escalators and traveling in tunnels. Since the Metro doesn't seem to go > > much beyond the skytrain, I stick to the skytrain. > > > > But now, after spending billions of dollars on those mass transit > > systems, > > and despite having an existing extensive bus system, and more roads than > > most Asian cities of their level of economic development, the government > > is > > now planning bus rapid transit-a bit like a street-level trolley, but > > with > > buses instead of trams. Of course, that too is delayed-but the cost is > > a > > fraction of that for the skytrain and Metro. > > > > A more careful look at those costs reveals something interesting and of > > considerable relevance as Dhaka plans its public transit system. > > According > > to various Web sites, the skytrain, which opened in 1999, cost about > > US$1.5 > > billion for 24 kilometers. That amounts to US$62.5 million per > > kilometer. > > Of course, things were cheaper back then. > > > > Construction of the Metro began back in 1996, but it wasn't finished > > until > > 2004. According to Wikipedia, "The project suffered multiple delays not > > only because of the 1997 economic crisis, but also due to challenging > > civil > > engineering works of constructing massive underground structures deep in > > the > > water-logged soil upon which the city is built." Interesting. > > Fortunately > > we don't have those troubles in Dhaka (ahem!). > > > > As for cost, the Metro cost a mere US$ 2.75 billion for 21 km, or > > US$130.95 > > million per kilometer-just over twice that of the skytrain. Apparently > > burrowing underground, dealing with flooding issues, providing > > ventilation, > > and so on is much more expensive than building above our heads. > > Meanwhile, > > again quoting Wikipedia, "ridership has settled down to around 180,000 > > riders daily - considerably lower than projections of over 400,000, > > despite > > fares being slashed in half from 12-38 baht to 10-15 baht per trip. As > > of > > 2006, fares range between 14-36 baht per trip." With an exchange rate > > as I > > write of 32 baht to one US dollar, that's a mighty high fare. Good > > thing > > Bangladeshis are wealthier than Thais (??). > > > > Meanwhile, the anticipated cost for the BRT is 33.4 million for 36 > > kilometers. Admittedly, anticipated costs are often far less than > > actual > > costs, but still, at US$0.93 million per kilometer, that's a bargain > > compared to the Metro or the skytrain-even more so when considering it's > > being built last, when prices are highest. At 67 times less than the > > skytrain and 141 times less than the Metro, even with significant cost > > increases, it will still be far more affordable than its public transit > > predecessors. > > > > Of course, operational costs are another issue. Buses require fuel, > > trains > > electricity. Buses tend to require more maintenance, tires wear down > > frequently, and buses have to be replaced far more often than trains. > > While > > it is cheaper to build a BRT system initially, the higher operational > > costs > > might mean that, in the long term, a tram system would be more > > affordable-tram meaning street-level light rail, not something up in the > > sky > > or underground, which greatly multiplies the costs. > > > > Which is all to say, I'm all for public transit. So, apparently, are > > Thais: > > last I checked, hotels and housing advertise their proximity to the > > various > > public transit options. Apparently people are sick and tired of sitting > > in > > cars stuck in traffic jams. In public transit, you can sit back and > > read a > > book while you ride, look out the window (preferably not at tunnels), > > eavesdrop on your neighbor's conversation, and otherwise amuse yourself > > without risking crashing into someone once the traffic moves again. > > > > But when considering spending millions or billions on public transit, it > > would make sense to invest it wisely, in a system that will be the most > > extensive and least expensive, and thus offer the best value for the > > money. > > At 141 times per kilometer less to build BRT than Metro, we could both > > have > > a far more extensive system, meeting far more people's needs, and lower > > fares. Sounds like a bargain to me! > > > > > > > > > > > > Syed Siful Alam Shovan > > shovan1209@yahoo.com > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > > YAHOOGROUPS. > > > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- ------------------------------------------------------ Sujit Patwardhan sujit@vsnl.com sujitjp@gmail.com "Yamuna", ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007 India Tel: 25537955 ----------------------------------------------------- Hon. Secretary: Parisar www.parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------ Founder Member: PTTF (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum) www.pttf.net ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). End of Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 54, Issue 16 *********************************************** From madhav.g.badami at mcgill.ca Mon Feb 18 17:40:32 2008 From: madhav.g.badami at mcgill.ca (Madhav Badami, Prof.) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:40:32 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 54, Issue 16 References: Message-ID: <45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F0632569D@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> Dear Simon, I agree with you -- the press have been going on and on about the few deaths that have occurred in the BRT corridor being constructed in Delhi -- while the deaths are undoubtedly tragic, they ignore the fact that these deaths could have happened (and I suppose have in fact happened) in other road (and Metro) construction projects as well. And of course, as you point out, they say nothing whatsoever about the hundreds of road accident fatalities that happen year after year, and about 60-odd% of which are accounted for -- in Delhi -- by pedestrians and cyclists, largely because of the lack of adequate facilities for safe access for these modes. Most perniciously, however, the press attacks on BRT on the basis of the few deaths that have occurred in the corridor being constructed imply that these are somehow due to the very concept of BRT, rather than, as in the specific case you allude to, driving under the influence, and (possibly) other factors such as inadequate signage and design precautions in the construction area. Madhav ************************************************************************ "As for the future, your task is not to foresee, but to enable it." Antoine de Saint-Exupery Madhav G. Badami, PhD School of Urban Planning and McGill School of Environment McGill University Macdonald-Harrington Building 815 Sherbrooke Street West Montreal, QC, H3A 2K6, Canada Phone: 514-398-3183 (Work); 514-486-2370 (Home) Fax: 514-398-8376; 514-398-1643 URLs: www.mcgill.ca/urbanplanning www.mcgill.ca/mse e-mail: madhav.badami@mcgill.ca -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Simon Bishop Sent: Mon 2/18/2008 2:42 AM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 54, Issue 16 Hi Madhav, I have been following much of the Times of India polemic over the BRT system these last few days. To highlight the danger of the road configuration they have focussed on a collision involving a grade separator and the death of a motorcyclist who had died at 3 a.m after a night without sleep and consumption of alcohol. Any road death is tragic. Our thoughts rest with this young man's family. At the same time the paper can't ignore the other 85,000 road deaths a year in India. Why single this death out and use it to rubbish the BRT? Most road deaths occur on high speed roads where pedestrians, cyclists and the disabled have no facility be it crossing or pavement. Some need to cross for their livelihoods, others because they want to walk or cycle (children especially), but all are always ignored by the traffic engineer as 'the elephant in the room', a problem to be designed out of existence. By contrast the BRT will have crossings. I propose that the Times of India, in the pursuit of balanced reporting, should write about the absence of a speed control strategy, or rather the presence of a speed encouragement strategy with flyovers and guard railings, lulling the motorist into a false aspiration that his journey will always be unencumbered. Where do you see guardrailings? At the racecourse. The lack of accessible pedestrian and cycle crossings only adds to the lethal cocktail and forces desperate measures. I look forward to the The Times of India campaign to educate drivers about the tragic consequences of speed and careless driving. I also look forward to the Times persuading drivers that they must face more congestion sooner or later and lobbying for accessible crossings that follow desire lines. Maybe someone could work out the journey time savings for all the beneficiaries and build an economic case for it?! sustran-discuss-r equest@list.jca.a pc.org To Sent by: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org sustran-discuss-b cc ounces+simonb=ter i.res.in@list.jca Subject .apc.org Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 54, Issue 16 02/18/2008 08:31 AM Please respond to sustran-discuss@l ist.jca.apc.org Send Sustran-discuss mailing list submissions to sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to sustran-discuss-request@list.jca.apc.org You can reach the person managing the list at sustran-discuss-owner@list.jca.apc.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Sustran-discuss digest..." ######################################################################## Sustran-discuss Mailing List Digest IMPORTANT NOTE: When replying please do not include the whole digest in your reply - just include the relevant part of the specific message that you are responding to. Many thanks. About this mailing list see: http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss ######################################################################## Today's Topics: 1. Sustainable transport and the media in India ... (Madhav Badami, Prof.) 2. Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... (Madhav Badami, Prof.) 3. Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... (Sujit Patwardhan) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:57:47 -0500 From: "Madhav Badami, Prof." Subject: [sustran] Sustainable transport and the media in India ... To: "Sustran Resource Centre" Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com, shovan1209@yahoo.com, gerardn@rhd.gov.bd Message-ID: <45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F06325684@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Greetings all, I thank Yasmin Chowdhury for her ?Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok?, and Saiful Alam (and Eric Britton) for posting it. Yasmin?s piece, and Lee?s response to it, reminded me of the attack that some newspapers in Delhi (chiefly The Pioneer and the Times of India) launched over several days on the High Capacity Bus System (HCBS), the BRT system being currently implemented there. The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it. Two of the items, titled ?Experts Order Serial Rape of Delhi Roads: Mindless HCBS plan derails traffic, destroys greenery, leaves city gasping? and ?Will somebody wake up to stop this HCBS madness??, both of which appeared as ?investigation? pieces in The Pioneer on November 6 and 7, may be accessed at: http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 The Times of India, a leading English language national daily effectively made the same claims as in the above items, in several pieces, including one titled ?Buses Hog Space, Cars Squeezed Out? on November 16. Feeling compelled to respond to these items (whose titles betray their general tone and content), I wrote an article in which I attempted to rebut them point by point, and sent it off to The Hindu, another leading English language national daily. My article was not published as it was originally written, because it was felt by the editor to be ?polemical?, and too long. But he did publish (on December 5) a considerably condensed version in which I removed specific references to the pieces in the Times of India and the Pioneer. In the end, I was thankful for his decision, because, although it denied me the opportunity to directly confront various specific claims made in the pieces (such as, for example, that the decision to implement BRT was sold by a cabal of experts to decision makers who accepted it in a hurry ? actually, it was approved after having been debated and scrutinized at length in various official committees since the mid-1990s), it resulted in what I believe is a more carefully argued and tightly focused article, which may be accessed at: http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/05/stories/2007120553611000.htm Apart from arguing that BRT systems have the potential, when properly designed and implemented, to be low cost mass transit solutions that are appropriate for rapidly motorizing, low-income country cities, I placed the issue of BRT (and more generally, mass transit) in a larger context, by making the case that policies to appropriately price and curb personal motor vehicle use, and provide accessibility for pedestrians and cyclists, are important for enhancing the effectiveness of mass transit, allowing all modes (including cars and other personal motor vehicles) to operate more efficiently, mitigating rapidly worsening urban transport impacts, and promoting social justice on our roads. My purpose is not only to share my article (to which I welcome your critical comments) but also to demonstrate what we are up against in confronting the elite interests represented and served by the mainstream media (with their pro-car, highway, flyovers, and metro, and anti-pedestrian, NMT and bus transit prejudices), and arguing for more environmentally sustainable and socially equitable alternatives. It is little wonder that the Tata Nano has been largely applauded in the same media as the greatest thing since sliced bread (or, if you wish, masala dosa) ? including, as I recall, for the rural masses of this country, who ostensibly have no unmet needs other than a 1-1.5 lakh rupee car. Cheers, Madhav ************************************************************************ "As for the future, your task is not to foresee, but to enable it." Antoine de Saint-Exupery Madhav G. Badami, PhD School of Urban Planning and McGill School of Environment McGill University Macdonald-Harrington Building 815 Sherbrooke Street West Montreal, QC, H3A 2K6, Canada Phone: 514-398-3183 (Work); 514-486-2370 (Home) Fax: 514-398-8376; 514-398-1643 URLs: www.mcgill.ca/urbanplanning www.mcgill.ca/mse e-mail: madhav.badami@mcgill.ca -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Carlosfelipe Pardo Sent: Thu 2/14/2008 12:11 PM To: Lee Schipper Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; Sustran Resource Centre; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd Subject: [sustran] Re: Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok From living in Bangkok in 2005, I would say the best mode of transport (not the cleanest, but the best) are the motorboats on the canals. If Bangkok would "unearth" the rivers it has underground and developed a real water-based transport system, it may be less expensive and more efficient than many others. Incidentally, the river boats have similar routes to the Skytrain (on the klong behind Sukkumvit at least), at 8 baht (20 us cent) for along ride and 4 Baht (10 US cent) for a short ride (Bangkokians may confirm). And yes, the BTS is for tourists and visitors. Best regards, Carlosfelipe Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 Bogot? D.C., Colombia Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 carlos.pardo@gtz.de www.gtz.de (carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org ) Lee Schipper wrote: > My daughter lives near the Skytrain, which makes her apartment very > accessible.. but others laughed and said "the Skytrain is for tourists > and students". Whatever, it works for journeys along the corridor. Her > building sends a shuttle, actually a small golf cart, to pick up > visitors and residents for the last 750 meters. > > When moving there from a nearby hotel ona Saturday afternoon with > baggage I made a mistake and took a cab. Took 50 minutes because of > horrible traffic and one way streets. Skytrain would have taken 10 mins > walk plus 4 minute ride. But I would have had to haul my bags up three > stories of stairs because the sky train stop near my hotel did not have > a lift or escalator, at least not one I could find. > > As for the metro, I'm told Thais do not like to ride underground, pure > and simple. > > The real issue is in Yasmin's cost figures --- How much money would it > cost to put in enough Skytrain and other rail lines to blanket the city? > And what good would it do without real restraints on individual vehicle > use -- widescale congestion pricing etc. > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > > and > > Visiting Scholar, > Univ of Calif Transport Center > Berkeley CA > www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > 510 642 6889 > 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of eric.britton > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:08 AM > To: Sustran Resource Centre; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com > Cc: shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > Subject: [sustran] Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > From: Saiful Alam [mailto:shovan1209@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 15:03 > > > > > > Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > Yasmin Chowdhury > > When I first visited Bangkok in 1994, I got around the city mostly by > bus. > The buses were slow, the streets congested, and I soon learned that I > could > only make one plan for the morning and one for the afternoon, as it > might > take a couple hours to move about. > > Then the city started to build their skytrain. I waited with great > anticipation for its completion. It seemed to require a lot more time > and a > lot more money (OK, just two years of delay and three times over budget) > than originally anticipated, and the fares are admittedly quite high, > but it > was finally built-if never finished. (I saw an article in a Thai > newspaper > about people very upset that the planned line to their area had never > been > built; meanwhile, the pilings leading to the now domestic-only airport > have > been converted into advertising posts.) > > To be quite honest, I love the skytrain. Sure, the cement structure > looming > overhead is ugly. Sure, most of the stations lack escalators, making > them > inaccessible to those in wheelchairs, and exceedingly difficult for > those > lugging heavy bags or luggage. Sure, the two lines only cover a very > limited portion of Bangkok. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, despite all > the > hassles, the trains are often packed. Sure, the stations are congested > and > I sometimes have to push through people to reach my train. But at least > I > can see a little of the city while I travel, and I can now get around to > the > stops on the line quickly, allowing myself to visit far more places in a > day. > > Though the skytrain certainly makes moving around the city much easier > (if > you can afford it), it obviously didn't alleviate the congestion, as the > government then opened a very limited subway system. The first time I > tried > to ride it, about a year after it opened, it was closed for two weeks > due to > an accident. I finally rode it a couple years after that, and > discovered > that it cost about US$0.50 to ride what it would take me ten minutes to > walk. That seemed outrageous, and I don't love riding up and down long > escalators and traveling in tunnels. Since the Metro doesn't seem to go > much beyond the skytrain, I stick to the skytrain. > > But now, after spending billions of dollars on those mass transit > systems, > and despite having an existing extensive bus system, and more roads than > most Asian cities of their level of economic development, the government > is > now planning bus rapid transit-a bit like a street-level trolley, but > with > buses instead of trams. Of course, that too is delayed-but the cost is > a > fraction of that for the skytrain and Metro. > > A more careful look at those costs reveals something interesting and of > considerable relevance as Dhaka plans its public transit system. > According > to various Web sites, the skytrain, which opened in 1999, cost about > US$1.5 > billion for 24 kilometers. That amounts to US$62.5 million per > kilometer. > Of course, things were cheaper back then. > > Construction of the Metro began back in 1996, but it wasn't finished > until > 2004. According to Wikipedia, "The project suffered multiple delays not > only because of the 1997 economic crisis, but also due to challenging > civil > engineering works of constructing massive underground structures deep in > the > water-logged soil upon which the city is built." Interesting. > Fortunately > we don't have those troubles in Dhaka (ahem!). > > As for cost, the Metro cost a mere US$ 2.75 billion for 21 km, or > US$130.95 > million per kilometer-just over twice that of the skytrain. Apparently > burrowing underground, dealing with flooding issues, providing > ventilation, > and so on is much more expensive than building above our heads. > Meanwhile, > again quoting Wikipedia, "ridership has settled down to around 180,000 > riders daily - considerably lower than projections of over 400,000, > despite > fares being slashed in half from 12-38 baht to 10-15 baht per trip. As > of > 2006, fares range between 14-36 baht per trip." With an exchange rate > as I > write of 32 baht to one US dollar, that's a mighty high fare. Good > thing > Bangladeshis are wealthier than Thais (??). > > Meanwhile, the anticipated cost for the BRT is 33.4 million for 36 > kilometers. Admittedly, anticipated costs are often far less than > actual > costs, but still, at US$0.93 million per kilometer, that's a bargain > compared to the Metro or the skytrain-even more so when considering it's > being built last, when prices are highest. At 67 times less than the > skytrain and 141 times less than the Metro, even with significant cost > increases, it will still be far more affordable than its public transit > predecessors. > > Of course, operational costs are another issue. Buses require fuel, > trains > electricity. Buses tend to require more maintenance, tires wear down > frequently, and buses have to be replaced far more often than trains. > While > it is cheaper to build a BRT system initially, the higher operational > costs > might mean that, in the long term, a tram system would be more > affordable-tram meaning street-level light rail, not something up in the > sky > or underground, which greatly multiplies the costs. > > Which is all to say, I'm all for public transit. So, apparently, are > Thais: > last I checked, hotels and housing advertise their proximity to the > various > public transit options. Apparently people are sick and tired of sitting > in > cars stuck in traffic jams. In public transit, you can sit back and > read a > book while you ride, look out the window (preferably not at tunnels), > eavesdrop on your neighbor's conversation, and otherwise amuse yourself > without risking crashing into someone once the traffic moves again. > > But when considering spending millions or billions on public transit, it > would make sense to invest it wisely, in a system that will be the most > extensive and least expensive, and thus offer the best value for the > money. > At 141 times per kilometer less to build BRT than Metro, we could both > have > a far more extensive system, meeting far more people's needs, and lower > fares. Sounds like a bargain to me! > > > > > > Syed Siful Alam Shovan > shovan1209@yahoo.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:37:32 -0500 From: "Madhav Badami, Prof." Subject: [sustran] Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... To: "Sustran Resource Centre" Message-ID: <45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F06325688@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello all, again, Our friend Sujit Patwardhan from Pune pointed out that the links that I provided to the Pioneer articles don't work ... please try the ones below (the links I provided earlier worked a week or so ago!). http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 A minor correction to the sentence "The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it." in the first paragraph of my posting; it should read: "The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of BRT. Besides, the Pioneer pieces personally attacked Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it." Cheers, Madhav -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Madhav Badami, Prof. Sent: Sun 2/17/2008 10:57 AM To: Sustran Resource Centre Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd Subject: [sustran] Sustainable transport and the media in India ... Greetings all, I thank Yasmin Chowdhury for her "Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok", and Saiful Alam (and Eric Britton) for posting it. Yasmin's piece, and Lee's response to it, reminded me of the attack that some newspapers in Delhi (chiefly The Pioneer and the Times of India) launched over several days on the High Capacity Bus System (HCBS), the BRT system being currently implemented there. The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it. Two of the items, titled "Experts Order Serial Rape of Delhi Roads: Mindless HCBS plan derails traffic, destroys greenery, leaves city gasping" and "Will somebody wake up to stop this HCBS madness?", both of which appeared as "investigation" pieces in The Pioneer on November 6 and 7, may be accessed at: http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 The Times of India, a leading English language national daily effectively made the same claims as in the above items, in several pieces, including one titled "Buses Hog Space, Cars Squeezed Out" on November 16. Feeling compelled to respond to these items (whose titles betray their general tone and content), I wrote an article in which I attempted to rebut them point by point, and sent it off to The Hindu, another leading English language national daily. My article was not published as it was originally written, because it was felt by the editor to be "polemical", and too long. But he did publish (on December 5) a considerably condensed version in which I removed specific references to the pieces in the Times of India and the Pioneer. In the end, I was thankful for his decision, because, although it denied me the opportunity to directly confront various specific claims made in the pieces (such as, for example, that the decision to implement BRT was sold by a cabal of experts to decision makers who accepted it in a hurry - actually, it was approved after having been debated and scrutinized at length in various official committees since the mid-1990s), it resulted in what I believe is a more carefully argued and tightly focused article, which may be accessed at: http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/05/stories/2007120553611000.htm Apart from arguing that BRT systems have the potential, when properly designed and implemented, to be low cost mass transit solutions that are appropriate for rapidly motorizing, low-income country cities, I placed the issue of BRT (and more generally, mass transit) in a larger context, by making the case that policies to appropriately price and curb personal motor vehicle use, and provide accessibility for pedestrians and cyclists, are important for enhancing the effectiveness of mass transit, allowing all modes (including cars and other personal motor vehicles) to operate more efficiently, mitigating rapidly worsening urban transport impacts, and promoting social justice on our roads. My purpose is not only to share my article (to which I welcome your critical comments) but also to demonstrate what we are up against in confronting the elite interests represented and served by the mainstream media (with their pro-car, highway, flyovers, and metro, and anti-pedestrian, NMT and bus transit prejudices), and arguing for more environmentally sustainable and socially equitable alternatives. It is little wonder that the Tata Nano has been largely applauded in the same media as the greatest thing since sliced bread (or, if you wish, masala dosa) - including, as I recall, for the rural masses of this country, who ostensibly have no unmet needs other than a 1-1.5 lakh rupee car. Cheers, Madhav ************************************************************************ "As for the future, your task is not to foresee, but to enable it." Antoine de Saint-Exupery Madhav G. Badami, PhD School of Urban Planning and McGill School of Environment McGill University Macdonald-Harrington Building 815 Sherbrooke Street West Montreal, QC, H3A 2K6, Canada Phone: 514-398-3183 (Work); 514-486-2370 (Home) Fax: 514-398-8376; 514-398-1643 URLs: www.mcgill.ca/urbanplanning www.mcgill.ca/mse e-mail: madhav.badami@mcgill.ca -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Carlosfelipe Pardo Sent: Thu 2/14/2008 12:11 PM To: Lee Schipper Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; Sustran Resource Centre; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd Subject: [sustran] Re: Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok From living in Bangkok in 2005, I would say the best mode of transport (not the cleanest, but the best) are the motorboats on the canals. If Bangkok would "unearth" the rivers it has underground and developed a real water-based transport system, it may be less expensive and more efficient than many others. Incidentally, the river boats have similar routes to the Skytrain (on the klong behind Sukkumvit at least), at 8 baht (20 us cent) for along ride and 4 Baht (10 US cent) for a short ride (Bangkokians may confirm). And yes, the BTS is for tourists and visitors. Best regards, Carlosfelipe Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 Bogot? D.C., Colombia Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 carlos.pardo@gtz.de www.gtz.de (carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org ) Lee Schipper wrote: > My daughter lives near the Skytrain, which makes her apartment very > accessible.. but others laughed and said "the Skytrain is for tourists > and students". Whatever, it works for journeys along the corridor. Her > building sends a shuttle, actually a small golf cart, to pick up > visitors and residents for the last 750 meters. > > When moving there from a nearby hotel ona Saturday afternoon with > baggage I made a mistake and took a cab. Took 50 minutes because of > horrible traffic and one way streets. Skytrain would have taken 10 mins > walk plus 4 minute ride. But I would have had to haul my bags up three > stories of stairs because the sky train stop near my hotel did not have > a lift or escalator, at least not one I could find. > > As for the metro, I'm told Thais do not like to ride underground, pure > and simple. > > The real issue is in Yasmin's cost figures --- How much money would it > cost to put in enough Skytrain and other rail lines to blanket the city? > And what good would it do without real restraints on individual vehicle > use -- widescale congestion pricing etc. > > Lee Schipper > EMBARQ Fellow > EMBARQ the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > www.embarq.wri.org > > and > > Visiting Scholar, > Univ of Calif Transport Center > Berkeley CA > www.uctc.net > skype: mrmeter > 510 642 6889 > 202 262 7476 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > Behalf Of eric.britton > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:08 AM > To: Sustran Resource Centre; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com > Cc: shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > Subject: [sustran] Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > From: Saiful Alam [mailto:shovan1209@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 15:03 > > > > > > Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > Yasmin Chowdhury > > When I first visited Bangkok in 1994, I got around the city mostly by > bus. > The buses were slow, the streets congested, and I soon learned that I > could > only make one plan for the morning and one for the afternoon, as it > might > take a couple hours to move about. > > Then the city started to build their skytrain. I waited with great > anticipation for its completion. It seemed to require a lot more time > and a > lot more money (OK, just two years of delay and three times over budget) > than originally anticipated, and the fares are admittedly quite high, > but it > was finally built-if never finished. (I saw an article in a Thai > newspaper > about people very upset that the planned line to their area had never > been > built; meanwhile, the pilings leading to the now domestic-only airport > have > been converted into advertising posts.) > > To be quite honest, I love the skytrain. Sure, the cement structure > looming > overhead is ugly. Sure, most of the stations lack escalators, making > them > inaccessible to those in wheelchairs, and exceedingly difficult for > those > lugging heavy bags or luggage. Sure, the two lines only cover a very > limited portion of Bangkok. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, despite all > the > hassles, the trains are often packed. Sure, the stations are congested > and > I sometimes have to push through people to reach my train. But at least > I > can see a little of the city while I travel, and I can now get around to > the > stops on the line quickly, allowing myself to visit far more places in a > day. > > Though the skytrain certainly makes moving around the city much easier > (if > you can afford it), it obviously didn't alleviate the congestion, as the > government then opened a very limited subway system. The first time I > tried > to ride it, about a year after it opened, it was closed for two weeks > due to > an accident. I finally rode it a couple years after that, and > discovered > that it cost about US$0.50 to ride what it would take me ten minutes to > walk. That seemed outrageous, and I don't love riding up and down long > escalators and traveling in tunnels. Since the Metro doesn't seem to go > much beyond the skytrain, I stick to the skytrain. > > But now, after spending billions of dollars on those mass transit > systems, > and despite having an existing extensive bus system, and more roads than > most Asian cities of their level of economic development, the government > is > now planning bus rapid transit-a bit like a street-level trolley, but > with > buses instead of trams. Of course, that too is delayed-but the cost is > a > fraction of that for the skytrain and Metro. > > A more careful look at those costs reveals something interesting and of > considerable relevance as Dhaka plans its public transit system. > According > to various Web sites, the skytrain, which opened in 1999, cost about > US$1.5 > billion for 24 kilometers. That amounts to US$62.5 million per > kilometer. > Of course, things were cheaper back then. > > Construction of the Metro began back in 1996, but it wasn't finished > until > 2004. According to Wikipedia, "The project suffered multiple delays not > only because of the 1997 economic crisis, but also due to challenging > civil > engineering works of constructing massive underground structures deep in > the > water-logged soil upon which the city is built." Interesting. > Fortunately > we don't have those troubles in Dhaka (ahem!). > > As for cost, the Metro cost a mere US$ 2.75 billion for 21 km, or > US$130.95 > million per kilometer-just over twice that of the skytrain. Apparently > burrowing underground, dealing with flooding issues, providing > ventilation, > and so on is much more expensive than building above our heads. > Meanwhile, > again quoting Wikipedia, "ridership has settled down to around 180,000 > riders daily - considerably lower than projections of over 400,000, > despite > fares being slashed in half from 12-38 baht to 10-15 baht per trip. As > of > 2006, fares range between 14-36 baht per trip." With an exchange rate > as I > write of 32 baht to one US dollar, that's a mighty high fare. Good > thing > Bangladeshis are wealthier than Thais (??). > > Meanwhile, the anticipated cost for the BRT is 33.4 million for 36 > kilometers. Admittedly, anticipated costs are often far less than > actual > costs, but still, at US$0.93 million per kilometer, that's a bargain > compared to the Metro or the skytrain-even more so when considering it's > being built last, when prices are highest. At 67 times less than the > skytrain and 141 times less than the Metro, even with significant cost > increases, it will still be far more affordable than its public transit > predecessors. > > Of course, operational costs are another issue. Buses require fuel, > trains > electricity. Buses tend to require more maintenance, tires wear down > frequently, and buses have to be replaced far more often than trains. > While > it is cheaper to build a BRT system initially, the higher operational > costs > might mean that, in the long term, a tram system would be more > affordable-tram meaning street-level light rail, not something up in the > sky > or underground, which greatly multiplies the costs. > > Which is all to say, I'm all for public transit. So, apparently, are > Thais: > last I checked, hotels and housing advertise their proximity to the > various > public transit options. Apparently people are sick and tired of sitting > in > cars stuck in traffic jams. In public transit, you can sit back and > read a > book while you ride, look out the window (preferably not at tunnels), > eavesdrop on your neighbor's conversation, and otherwise amuse yourself > without risking crashing into someone once the traffic moves again. > > But when considering spending millions or billions on public transit, it > would make sense to invest it wisely, in a system that will be the most > extensive and least expensive, and thus offer the best value for the > money. > At 141 times per kilometer less to build BRT than Metro, we could both > have > a far more extensive system, meeting far more people's needs, and lower > fares. Sounds like a bargain to me! > > > > > > Syed Siful Alam Shovan > shovan1209@yahoo.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:24:53 +0530 From: "Sujit Patwardhan" Subject: [sustran] Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... To: "Madhav Badami, Prof." Cc: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Message-ID: <4cfd20aa0802170954g269d6a9cs6623d1022399947f@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Madhav, Thanks but they still don't work (for me at least). -- Sujit On Feb 17, 2008 11:07 PM, Madhav Badami, Prof. wrote: > Hello all, again, > > Our friend Sujit Patwardhan from Pune pointed out that the links that I > provided to the Pioneer articles don't work ... please try the ones below > (the links I provided earlier worked a week or so ago!). > > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 > > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 > > A minor correction to the sentence "The items in these newspapers not only > criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for > Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh > Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed > and conceptualized it." in the first paragraph of my posting; it should > read: "The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation > of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of > BRT. Besides, the Pioneer pieces personally attacked Dinesh Mohan of IIT > Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and > conceptualized it." > > Cheers, > > Madhav > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.orgon behalf of Madhav Badami, Prof. > Sent: Sun 2/17/2008 10:57 AM > To: Sustran Resource Centre > Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; > gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > Subject: [sustran] Sustainable transport and the media in India ... > > Greetings all, > > I thank Yasmin Chowdhury for her "Pricing public transit: learning from > Bangkok", and Saiful Alam (and Eric Britton) for posting it. Yasmin's piece, > and Lee's response to it, reminded me of the attack that some newspapers in > Delhi (chiefly The Pioneer and the Times of India) launched over several > days on the High Capacity Bus System (HCBS), the BRT system being currently > implemented there. The items in these newspapers not only criticized the > implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the > very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, > who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it. > > Two of the items, titled "Experts Order Serial Rape of Delhi Roads: > Mindless HCBS plan derails traffic, destroys greenery, leaves city gasping" > and "Will somebody wake up to stop this HCBS madness?", both of which > appeared as "investigation" pieces in The Pioneer on November 6 and 7, may > be accessed at: > > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 > > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 > > The Times of India, a leading English language national daily effectively > made the same claims as in the above items, in several pieces, including one > titled "Buses Hog Space, Cars Squeezed Out" on November 16. > > Feeling compelled to respond to these items (whose titles betray their > general tone and content), I wrote an article in which I attempted to rebut > them point by point, and sent it off to The Hindu, another leading English > language national daily. My article was not published as it was originally > written, because it was felt by the editor to be "polemical", and too long. > But he did publish (on December 5) a considerably condensed version in which > I removed specific references to the pieces in the Times of India and the > Pioneer. > > In the end, I was thankful for his decision, because, although it denied > me the opportunity to directly confront various specific claims made in the > pieces (such as, for example, that the decision to implement BRT was sold by > a cabal of experts to decision makers who accepted it in a hurry - actually, > it was approved after having been debated and scrutinized at length in > various official committees since the mid-1990s), it resulted in what I > believe is a more carefully argued and tightly focused article, which may be > accessed at: > > http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/05/stories/2007120553611000.htm > > Apart from arguing that BRT systems have the potential, when properly > designed and implemented, to be low cost mass transit solutions that are > appropriate for rapidly motorizing, low-income country cities, I placed the > issue of BRT (and more generally, mass transit) in a larger context, by > making the case that policies to appropriately price and curb personal motor > vehicle use, and provide accessibility for pedestrians and cyclists, are > important for enhancing the effectiveness of mass transit, allowing all > modes (including cars and other personal motor vehicles) to operate more > efficiently, mitigating rapidly worsening urban transport impacts, and > promoting social justice on our roads. > > My purpose is not only to share my article (to which I welcome your > critical comments) but also to demonstrate what we are up against in > confronting the elite interests represented and served by the mainstream > media (with their pro-car, highway, flyovers, and metro, and > anti-pedestrian, NMT and bus transit prejudices), and arguing for more > environmentally sustainable and socially equitable alternatives. It is > little wonder that the Tata Nano has been largely applauded in the same > media as the greatest thing since sliced bread (or, if you wish, masala > dosa) - including, as I recall, for the rural masses of this country, who > ostensibly have no unmet needs other than a 1-1.5 lakh rupee car. > > Cheers, > > Madhav > > ************************************************************************ > > "As for the future, your task is not to foresee, but to enable it." > Antoine de Saint-Exupery > > Madhav G. Badami, PhD > School of Urban Planning and McGill School of Environment > McGill University > Macdonald-Harrington Building > 815 Sherbrooke Street West > Montreal, QC, H3A 2K6, Canada > > Phone: 514-398-3183 (Work); 514-486-2370 (Home) > Fax: 514-398-8376; 514-398-1643 > URLs: www.mcgill.ca/urbanplanning > www.mcgill.ca/mse > e-mail: madhav.badami@mcgill.ca > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.orgon behalf of Carlosfelipe Pardo > Sent: Thu 2/14/2008 12:11 PM > To: Lee Schipper > Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; shovan1209@yahoo.com; Sustran > Resource Centre; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > Subject: [sustran] Re: Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > > From living in Bangkok in 2005, I would say the best mode of transport > (not the cleanest, but the best) are the motorboats on the canals. If > Bangkok would "unearth" the rivers it has underground and developed a > real water-based transport system, it may be less expensive and more > efficient than many others. > > Incidentally, the river boats have similar routes to the Skytrain (on > the klong behind Sukkumvit at least), at 8 baht (20 us cent) for along > ride and 4 Baht (10 US cent) for a short ride (Bangkokians may confirm). > > And yes, the BTS is for tourists and visitors. > > Best regards, > > Carlosfelipe Pardo > Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator > GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) > Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 > Bogot? D.C., Colombia > Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 > carlos.pardo@gtz.de www.gtz.de > (carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org ) > > > > Lee Schipper wrote: > > My daughter lives near the Skytrain, which makes her apartment very > > accessible.. but others laughed and said "the Skytrain is for tourists > > and students". Whatever, it works for journeys along the corridor. Her > > building sends a shuttle, actually a small golf cart, to pick up > > visitors and residents for the last 750 meters. > > > > When moving there from a nearby hotel ona Saturday afternoon with > > baggage I made a mistake and took a cab. Took 50 minutes because of > > horrible traffic and one way streets. Skytrain would have taken 10 mins > > walk plus 4 minute ride. But I would have had to haul my bags up three > > stories of stairs because the sky train stop near my hotel did not have > > a lift or escalator, at least not one I could find. > > > > As for the metro, I'm told Thais do not like to ride underground, pure > > and simple. > > > > The real issue is in Yasmin's cost figures --- How much money would it > > cost to put in enough Skytrain and other rail lines to blanket the city? > > And what good would it do without real restraints on individual vehicle > > use -- widescale congestion pricing etc. > > > > Lee Schipper > > EMBARQ Fellow > > EMBARQ the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport > > www.embarq.wri.org > > > > and > > > > Visiting Scholar, > > Univ of Calif Transport Center > > Berkeley CA > > www.uctc.net > > skype: mrmeter > > 510 642 6889 > > 202 262 7476 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org > > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On > > Behalf Of eric.britton > > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:08 AM > > To: Sustran Resource Centre; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com > > Cc: shovan1209@yahoo.com; gerardn@rhd.gov.bd > > Subject: [sustran] Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > > > From: Saiful Alam [mailto:shovan1209@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2008 15:03 > > > > > > > > > > > > Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok > > > > Yasmin Chowdhury > > > > When I first visited Bangkok in 1994, I got around the city mostly by > > bus. > > The buses were slow, the streets congested, and I soon learned that I > > could > > only make one plan for the morning and one for the afternoon, as it > > might > > take a couple hours to move about. > > > > Then the city started to build their skytrain. I waited with great > > anticipation for its completion. It seemed to require a lot more time > > and a > > lot more money (OK, just two years of delay and three times over budget) > > than originally anticipated, and the fares are admittedly quite high, > > but it > > was finally built-if never finished. (I saw an article in a Thai > > newspaper > > about people very upset that the planned line to their area had never > > been > > built; meanwhile, the pilings leading to the now domestic-only airport > > have > > been converted into advertising posts.) > > > > To be quite honest, I love the skytrain. Sure, the cement structure > > looming > > overhead is ugly. Sure, most of the stations lack escalators, making > > them > > inaccessible to those in wheelchairs, and exceedingly difficult for > > those > > lugging heavy bags or luggage. Sure, the two lines only cover a very > > limited portion of Bangkok. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, despite all > > the > > hassles, the trains are often packed. Sure, the stations are congested > > and > > I sometimes have to push through people to reach my train. But at least > > I > > can see a little of the city while I travel, and I can now get around to > > the > > stops on the line quickly, allowing myself to visit far more places in a > > day. > > > > Though the skytrain certainly makes moving around the city much easier > > (if > > you can afford it), it obviously didn't alleviate the congestion, as the > > government then opened a very limited subway system. The first time I > > tried > > to ride it, about a year after it opened, it was closed for two weeks > > due to > > an accident. I finally rode it a couple years after that, and > > discovered > > that it cost about US$0.50 to ride what it would take me ten minutes to > > walk. That seemed outrageous, and I don't love riding up and down long > > escalators and traveling in tunnels. Since the Metro doesn't seem to go > > much beyond the skytrain, I stick to the skytrain. > > > > But now, after spending billions of dollars on those mass transit > > systems, > > and despite having an existing extensive bus system, and more roads than > > most Asian cities of their level of economic development, the government > > is > > now planning bus rapid transit-a bit like a street-level trolley, but > > with > > buses instead of trams. Of course, that too is delayed-but the cost is > > a > > fraction of that for the skytrain and Metro. > > > > A more careful look at those costs reveals something interesting and of > > considerable relevance as Dhaka plans its public transit system. > > According > > to various Web sites, the skytrain, which opened in 1999, cost about > > US$1.5 > > billion for 24 kilometers. That amounts to US$62.5 million per > > kilometer. > > Of course, things were cheaper back then. > > > > Construction of the Metro began back in 1996, but it wasn't finished > > until > > 2004. According to Wikipedia, "The project suffered multiple delays not > > only because of the 1997 economic crisis, but also due to challenging > > civil > > engineering works of constructing massive underground structures deep in > > the > > water-logged soil upon which the city is built." Interesting. > > Fortunately > > we don't have those troubles in Dhaka (ahem!). > > > > As for cost, the Metro cost a mere US$ 2.75 billion for 21 km, or > > US$130.95 > > million per kilometer-just over twice that of the skytrain. Apparently > > burrowing underground, dealing with flooding issues, providing > > ventilation, > > and so on is much more expensive than building above our heads. > > Meanwhile, > > again quoting Wikipedia, "ridership has settled down to around 180,000 > > riders daily - considerably lower than projections of over 400,000, > > despite > > fares being slashed in half from 12-38 baht to 10-15 baht per trip. As > > of > > 2006, fares range between 14-36 baht per trip." With an exchange rate > > as I > > write of 32 baht to one US dollar, that's a mighty high fare. Good > > thing > > Bangladeshis are wealthier than Thais (??). > > > > Meanwhile, the anticipated cost for the BRT is 33.4 million for 36 > > kilometers. Admittedly, anticipated costs are often far less than > > actual > > costs, but still, at US$0.93 million per kilometer, that's a bargain > > compared to the Metro or the skytrain-even more so when considering it's > > being built last, when prices are highest. At 67 times less than the > > skytrain and 141 times less than the Metro, even with significant cost > > increases, it will still be far more affordable than its public transit > > predecessors. > > > > Of course, operational costs are another issue. Buses require fuel, > > trains > > electricity. Buses tend to require more maintenance, tires wear down > > frequently, and buses have to be replaced far more often than trains. > > While > > it is cheaper to build a BRT system initially, the higher operational > > costs > > might mean that, in the long term, a tram system would be more > > affordable-tram meaning street-level light rail, not something up in the > > sky > > or underground, which greatly multiplies the costs. > > > > Which is all to say, I'm all for public transit. So, apparently, are > > Thais: > > last I checked, hotels and housing advertise their proximity to the > > various > > public transit options. Apparently people are sick and tired of sitting > > in > > cars stuck in traffic jams. In public transit, you can sit back and > > read a > > book while you ride, look out the window (preferably not at tunnels), > > eavesdrop on your neighbor's conversation, and otherwise amuse yourself > > without risking crashing into someone once the traffic moves again. > > > > But when considering spending millions or billions on public transit, it > > would make sense to invest it wisely, in a system that will be the most > > extensive and least expensive, and thus offer the best value for the > > money. > > At 141 times per kilometer less to build BRT than Metro, we could both > > have > > a far more extensive system, meeting far more people's needs, and lower > > fares. Sounds like a bargain to me! > > > > > > > > > > > > Syed Siful Alam Shovan > > shovan1209@yahoo.com > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > > YAHOOGROUPS. > > > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to > > the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem > > like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > > (the 'Global South'). > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > > > ================================================================ > > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > -- ------------------------------------------------------ Sujit Patwardhan sujit@vsnl.com sujitjp@gmail.com "Yamuna", ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007 India Tel: 25537955 ----------------------------------------------------- Hon. Secretary: Parisar www.parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------ Founder Member: PTTF (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum) www.pttf.net ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). End of Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 54, Issue 16 *********************************************** -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Tue Feb 19 01:30:49 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:30:49 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Social Roads Message-ID: <008201c8724b$a21f67e0$e65e37a0$@britton@ecoplan.org> From: Robert Bartlett [mailto:roadnotes@freenet.de] Sent: Monday, 18 February 2008 16:36 In the circumstances Sudhir describes the new road is a single-mode route (faster motorised vehicles). It will damage or destroy several existing networks (NMT, low speed MT) and also the existing integration of roads, land-use and societies. Reducing speed to reduce accidents may not be an option, if the client wants a high-speed road. In urban areas a coordinated mix of (traffic, land use and social use) for a road is becoming seen as desirable even on a small scale- e.g. streetscapes, street scenes, dwell areas for people. Felicien Amakpe's research and photographs show that rural and semi-urban roads have social and non-transport uses, as well transport uses. The argument is that these should be included for in a design A good idea might be for engineers to have a holistic approach to road planning and design. Also (as German guidelines recommend) they should make sure there are complete networks for every type of road user. The basic problem for designers is that they often don't know what the non-transport uses of a road are and they often don't know what the types of road user are. Road accidents will continue to occur where - there is no holistic approach to road planning - there are no complete networks for non MT users - designers don't allow for non-transport uses - designers don't allow for all types of road user. Robert Bartlett From edelman at greenidea.eu Tue Feb 19 04:31:40 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 20:31:40 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: Social Roads In-Reply-To: <008201c8724b$a21f67e0$e65e37a0$@britton@ecoplan.org> References: <008201c8724b$a21f67e0$e65e37a0$@britton@ecoplan.org> Message-ID: <47B9DD1C.8020903@greenidea.eu> Hi, WITH all due respect to Mr Bartlett, it is hard for me to find the Sus(tainable) in these recommendations. eric.britton wrote: > From: Robert Bartlett [mailto:roadnotes@freenet.de] > Sent: Monday, 18 February 2008 16:36 > > In the circumstances Sudhir describes the new road is a single-mode route > (faster motorised vehicles). It will damage or destroy several existing > networks (NMT, low speed MT) and also the existing integration of roads, > land-use and societies. > > Reducing speed to reduce accidents WE don't use French on this list, and I would suggest that we also call an "accident" a "collision" from now on. > may not be an option, if the client wants > a high-speed road. > > In urban areas a coordinated mix of (traffic, land use and social use) for a > road is becoming seen as desirable even on a small scale- e.g. streetscapes, > street scenes, dwell areas for people. Felicien Amakpe's research and > photographs show that rural and semi-urban roads have social and > non-transport uses, as well transport uses. The argument is that these > should be included for in a design > > A good idea might be for engineers to have a holistic approach to road > planning and design. Also (as German guidelines recommend) they should make > sure there are complete networks for every type of road user. > "HOLISTIC" implies healthy, and "balance" - and the latter term is used on and on with a result being that people think that cars are necessary in urban areas in order to be inclusive and fair > The basic problem for designers is that they often don't know what the > non-transport uses of a road are and they often don't know what the types of > road user are. > RIGHT > Road accidents will continue to occur where > - there is no holistic approach to road planning > - there are no complete networks for non MT users > - designers don't allow for non-transport uses > - designers don't allow for all types of road user. > ROAD collisions involving cars at least will not continue to occur if there are no cars. This is entirely obvious to most readers on this list, which is why I take big issue - and risk being told I am being the thought police and kicked off this List - with this fake democracy of including everyone on the roads (in cities). Rural situations are a different issue of course. Thanks, T > Robert Bartlett > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > > -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Tue Feb 19 05:36:41 2008 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (eric.britton) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:36:41 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Social Roads In-Reply-To: <47B9DD1C.8020903@greenidea.eu> References: <008201c8724b$a21f67e0$e65e37a0$@britton@ecoplan.org> <47B9DD1C.8020903@greenidea.eu> Message-ID: <013a01c8726d$fc1f4a90$f45ddfb0$@britton@ecoplan.org> Todd, I find your email of Mon 18-Feb-08 20:32 inappropriate to this list. The reasons are too obvious to require my stating them and certainly not taking the time of my busy colleagues who are (!!!) directly knowledgeable about transport and environment issues in the Asia Pacific region with such details. You have suggested if I read this correctly that you might be a candidate for being kicked off this list. I would tend to say yes, unless you learn to mend your ways. Eric Britton From carlosfpardo at gmail.com Tue Feb 19 10:30:08 2008 From: carlosfpardo at gmail.com (Carlosfelipe Pardo) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 20:30:08 -0500 Subject: [sustran] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Sustainable_transport_and_the_medi?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?a_=28in_India=2C_and_Bogot=E1=2C_and=2E=2E=2E=29?= In-Reply-To: <47B9D97D.7010400@gmail.com> References: <47B9D97D.7010400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7272a1b30802181730w76ba3457l395daf91c0c06f8b@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Something similar happened late last year with Bogot? and its BRT/LRT/metro discussion. Though plans are now underway for its phase 3, there were many press articles from El Tiempo (the major national newspaper) which were strongly lobbying building any type of rail- based solution in one of the trunk lines of the city. It was also linked to the campaigns of the candidates for mayors (Pe?alosa and Moreno, the latter pro-rail). Some of us who normally wrote articles there suggested the newspaper to let us publish something to "neutralize" the very polarized debate, but no attention was paid to us. Instead, they provided biased information about rail projects from some places in the world (including the elevated rail from Medell?n which was a financial disaster), while manipulating numbers on costs of trunk lines (using the highest costs of BRT vs the lowest costs of an LRT, which were almost the same), capacity (using the lower capacity numbers of BRT and comparing to the highest capacity numbers of metros) and other information such as "world-class cities have subways" (which could be more like "built, but would have rather built a BRT in some cases"). The sad thing is that readers of the newspaper (i.e. most citizens) may now think that BRT is a low-quality mass transit solution, while rail-based solutions are "that which we'll never have because of ignorance of technical people" or whatever. Additional to that, those of us who were critical of rail-based solutions for low-demand corridors (such as the Avenida Septima, with 10,000 pphpd) were just told "you are with Pe?alosa, so you are biased". Politics is deeply intertwined with transport now, especially when speaking of mass transit options. However, as I said, plans for the next phase of TransMilenio are underway. The city will now spend some (more) money on feasibility studies for a metro (I think it's the 15th time in 40 years, the last one being developed in 1997 or so), since everybody wants a rail-based solution, no matter where or at what cost (and if possible, underground or elevated, because "it won't fit elsewhere"). The ideal would be that, if we have a metro, it should be at a reasonable cost and in the proper corridor (most probably, Avenida Caracas). The national government said they will support a metro only if (a) there is no need for subsidy and (b) there is an adequate level of demand. Let's hope that the result of the study is not a self-fulfilling prophecy... it wouldn't be the first time. In the meantime, cars are bumper to bumper and we still don't have the Nano here. But I don't want to divert the discussion from the issue of the Times of India. I just wanted to highlight the importance that the media has on these issues and that we need to see which are good ways to solve this. In Bangkok, we once sent an article to a newspaper with information on what 1 million USD would do in mass transit options (we showed a map with the results for LRT, subway and BRT), plus some info on what BRT is, etc. Call it lobbying from the other side if you like, but it was a good experience. Best regards, Carlosfelipe Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 Bogot? D.C., Colombia Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 carlos.pardo@gtz.de www.gtz.de (carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org ) Simon Bishop wrote: Hi Madhav, I have been following much of the Times of India polemic over the BRT system these last few days. To highlight the danger of the road configuration they have focussed on a collision involving a grade separator and the death of a motorcyclist who had died at 3 a.m after a night without sleep and consumption of alcohol. Any road death is tragic. Our thoughts rest with this young man's family. At the same time the paper can't ignore the other 85,000 road deaths a year in India. Why single this death out and use it to rubbish the BRT? Most road deaths occur on high speed roads where pedestrians, cyclists and the disabled have no facility be it crossing or pavement. Some need to cross for their livelihoods, others because they want to walk or cycle (children especially), but all are always ignored by the traffic engineer as 'the elephant in the room', a problem to be designed out of existence. By contrast the BRT will have crossings. I propose that the Times of India, in the pursuit of balanced reporting, should write about the absence of a speed control strategy, or rather the presence of a speed encouragement strategy with flyovers and guard railings, lulling the motorist into a false aspiration that his journey will always be unencumbered. Where do you see guardrailings? At the racecourse. The lack of accessible pedestrian and cycle crossings only adds to the lethal cocktail and forces desperate measures. I look forward to the The Times of India campaign to educate drivers about the tragic consequences of speed and careless driving. I also look forward to the Times persuading drivers that they must face more congestion sooner or later and lobbying for accessible crossings that follow desire lines. Maybe someone could work out the journey time savings for all the beneficiaries and build an economic case for it?! sustran-discuss-r equest@list.jca.a pc.org To Sent by: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org sustran-discuss-b cc ounces+simonb=ter i.res.in@list.jca Subject .apc.org Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 54, Issue 16 02/18/2008 08:31 AM Please respond to sustran-discuss@l ist.jca.apc.org Send Sustran-discuss mailing list submissions to sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to sustran-discuss-request@list.jca.apc.org You can reach the person managing the list at sustran-discuss-owner@list.jca.apc.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Sustran-discuss digest..." ######################################################################## Sustran-discuss Mailing List Digest IMPORTANT NOTE: When replying please do not include the whole digest in your reply - just include the relevant part of the specific message that you are responding to. Many thanks. About this mailing list see: http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss ######################################################################## Today's Topics: 1. Sustainable transport and the media in India ... (Madhav Badami, Prof.) 2. Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... (Madhav Badami, Prof.) 3. Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... (Sujit Patwardhan) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:57:47 -0500 From: "Madhav Badami, Prof." Subject: [sustran] Sustainable transport and the media in India ... To: "Sustran Resource Centre" Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com, shovan1209@yahoo.com, gerardn@rhd.gov.bd Message-ID: <45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F06325684@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> <45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F06325684@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Greetings all, I thank Yasmin Chowdhury for her ?Pricing public transit: learning from Bangkok?, and Saiful Alam (and Eric Britton) for posting it. Yasmin?s piece, and Lee?s response to it, reminded me of the attack that some newspapers in Delhi (chiefly The Pioneer and the Times of India) launched over several days on the High Capacity Bus System (HCBS), the BRT system being currently implemented there. The items in these newspapers not only criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed and conceptualized it. Two of the items, titled ?Experts Order Serial Rape of Delhi Roads: Mindless HCBS plan derails traffic, destroys greenery, leaves city gasping? and ?Will somebody wake up to stop this HCBS madness??, both of which appeared as ?investigation? pieces in The Pioneer on November 6 and 7, may be accessed at: http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 The Times of India, a leading English language national daily effectively made the same claims as in the above items, in several pieces, including one titled ?Buses Hog Space, Cars Squeezed Out? on November 16. Feeling compelled to respond to these items (whose titles betray their general tone and content), I wrote an article in which I attempted to rebut them point by point, and sent it off to The Hindu, another leading English language national daily. My article was not published as it was originally written, because it was felt by the editor to be ?polemical?, and too long. But he did publish (on December 5) a considerably condensed version in which I removed specific references to the pieces in the Times of India and the Pioneer. In the end, I was thankful for his decision, because, although it denied me the opportunity to directly confront various specific claims made in the pieces (such as, for example, that the decision to implement BRT was sold by a cabal of experts to decision makers who accepted it in a hurry ? actually, it was approved after having been debated and scrutinized at length in various official committees since the mid-1990s), it resulted in what I believe is a more carefully argued and tightly focused article, which may be accessed at: http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/05/stories/2007120553611000.htm Apart from arguing that BRT systems have the potential, when properly designed and implemented, to be low cost mass transit solutions that are appropriate for rapidly motorizing, low-income country cities, I placed the issue of BRT (and more generally, mass transit) in a larger context, by making the case that policies to appropriately price and curb personal motor vehicle use, and provide accessibility for pedestrians and cyclists, are important for enhancing the effectiveness of mass transit, allowing all modes (including cars and other personal motor vehicles) to operate more efficiently, mitigating rapidly worsening urban transport impacts, and promoting social justice on our roads. My purpose is not only to share my article (to which I welcome your critical comments) but also to demonstrate what we are up against in confronting the elite interests represented and served by the mainstream media (with their pro-car, highway, flyovers, and metro, and anti-pedestrian, NMT and bus transit prejudices), and arguing for more environmentally sustainable and socially equitable alternatives. It is little wonder that the Tata Nano has been largely applauded in the same media as the greatest thing since sliced bread (or, if you wish, masala dosa) ? including, as I recall, for the rural masses of this country, who ostensibly have no unmet needs other than a 1-1.5 lakh rupee car. Cheers, Madhav ************************************************************************ "As for the future, your task is not to foresee, but to enable it." Antoine de Saint-Exupery Madhav G. Badami, PhD School of Urban Planning and McGill School of Environment McGill University Macdonald-Harrington Building 815 Sherbrooke Street West Montreal, QC, H3A 2K6, Canada Phone: 514-398-3183 (Work); 514-486-2370 (Home) Fax: 514-398-8376; 514-398-1643 URLs: www.mcgill.ca/urbanplanning www.mcgill.ca/mse e-mail: madhav.badami@mcgill.ca From paulbarter at nus.edu.sg Tue Feb 19 12:32:58 2008 From: paulbarter at nus.edu.sg (Paul Barter) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:32:58 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: Social Roads In-Reply-To: <013a01c8726d$fc1f4a90$f45ddfb0$@britton@ecoplan.org> References: <008201c8724b$a21f67e0$e65e37a0$@britton@ecoplan.org><47B9DD1C.8020903@greenidea.eu> <013a01c8726d$fc1f4a90$f45ddfb0$@britton@ecoplan.org> Message-ID: Let's all take a deep breath and count to ten. First, let's not be too hasty to talk of throwing anyone off the list. However, let's all please try harder to keep the discussions here VERY CIVIL. This is especially important here because of the international and multicultural membership of the list. For those who are used to a very vigorous and frank style of debate, please try to be a bit more gentle and muted here. We want to encourage participation from a very wide range of countries. Overly robust attacks on other people's contributions do not make for an atmosphere that is welcoming and friendly. We want to hear diverse perspectives and viewpoints and from people whose first language is not English and who may be from cultures where speaking out is more difficult than it is for Europeans or South Asians (for example). So Todd, you were perhaps a bit too robust and perhaps even a little rude in attacking so many of the word choices in the Bartlett contribution. There is nothing wrong with discussing the politics of terminology. We should. But Mr Bartlett's message was not the right target for such an attack. His forwarded message was perfectly appropriate for the list and his choices to use the words, "accident" and "holistic" were appropriate in the context of discussing problems with a mainstream road project. Note the references to "people-centred and equitable" in the list description. The suggestions may not be revolutionary enough for some but there is no doubt their intention is to shift road plannning in a more 'people-centred and equitable' direction. Please be aware that this list is not limited to the deep green end of the spectrum. We welcome discussion of small steps in the right direction (and discussion of what is the right direction) just as much as more revolutionary changes. I fear people will stop using this discussion list if they have to worrry too much about being attacked for not being purist enough in their perspective and choice of words. All the best Paul (co-manager of sustran-discuss) Paul A. Barter | Assistant Professor | LKY School of Public Policy National University of Singapore From itdpasia at comcast.net Tue Feb 19 13:50:17 2008 From: itdpasia at comcast.net (John Ernst) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:50:17 -0700 Subject: [sustran] Re: Sustainable transport and the medi a (in India, and =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bogot=E1,_and...)?= In-Reply-To: <7272a1b30802181730w76ba3457l395daf91c0c06f8b@mail.gmail.co m> References: <47B9D97D.7010400@gmail.com> <7272a1b30802181730w76ba3457l395daf91c0c06f8b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080219045116.8F6B12DF3B@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> The Jakarta busway also becomes news whenever a busway bus is involved in a collision, though this seemed to be more prominent during the first years. When the police asked me about this, I asked them if they had compared the rate of collisions per passenger km involving busway buses versus other modes -- they had not. Because BRT is a government-managed service, the BRT buses generally have much better records of collisions than private vehicles -- making them an easy target. The media theme that Carlos' raises is very important. Some NGO's in Jakarta feel there was an orchestrated campaign against the busway last fall. It is perhaps not coincidental that Jakarta's oft-planned rail project was re-initiated last year. That may be overly conspiratorial. However, when ITDP was discussing BRT with Hyderabad, India a few years back, it was clear that the rail and monorail interests were providing the government with lot of anti-BRT arguments. Best, John Ernst www.itdp.org At 06:30 PM 2/18/2008, Carlosfelipe Pardo wrote: >Hi, > >Something similar happened late last year with Bogot? and its BRT/LRT/metro >discussion. Though plans are now underway for its phase 3, there were many >press articles from El Tiempo (the major national newspaper) which were >strongly lobbying building any type of rail- based solution in one of the >trunk lines of the city. It was also linked to the campaigns of the >candidates for mayors (Pe?alosa and Moreno, the latter pro-rail). Some of us >who normally wrote articles there suggested the newspaper to let us publish >something to "neutralize" the very polarized debate, but no attention was >paid to us. Instead, they provided biased information about rail projects >from some places in the world (including the elevated rail from Medell?n >which was a financial disaster), while manipulating numbers on costs of >trunk lines (using the highest costs of BRT vs the lowest costs of an LRT, >which were almost the same), capacity (using the lower capacity numbers of >BRT and comparing to the highest capacity numbers of metros) and other >information such as "world-class cities have subways" (which could be more >like "built, but would have rather built a BRT in some cases"). > >The sad thing is that readers of the newspaper (i.e. most citizens) may now >think that BRT is a low-quality mass transit solution, while rail-based >solutions are "that which we'll never have because of ignorance of technical >people" or whatever. Additional to that, those of us who were critical of >rail-based solutions for low-demand corridors (such as the Avenida Septima, >with 10,000 pphpd) were just told "you are with Pe?alosa, so you are >biased". Politics is deeply intertwined with transport now, especially when >speaking of mass transit options. > >However, as I said, plans for the next phase of TransMilenio are underway. >The city will now spend some (more) money on feasibility studies for a metro >(I think it's the 15th time in 40 years, the last one being developed in >1997 or so), since everybody wants a rail-based solution, no matter where or >at what cost (and if possible, underground or elevated, because "it won't >fit elsewhere"). The ideal would be that, if we have a metro, it should be >at a reasonable cost and in the proper corridor (most probably, Avenida >Caracas). The national government said they will support a metro only if (a) >there is no need for subsidy and (b) there is an adequate level of demand. >Let's hope that the result of the study is not a self-fulfilling prophecy... >it wouldn't be the first time. In the meantime, cars are bumper to bumper >and we still don't have the Nano here. > >But I don't want to divert the discussion from the issue of the Times of >India. I just wanted to highlight the importance that the media has on these >issues and that we need to see which are good ways to solve this. In >Bangkok, we once sent an article to a newspaper with information on what 1 >million USD would do in mass transit options (we showed a map with the >results for LRT, subway and BRT), plus some info on what BRT is, etc. Call >it lobbying from the other side if you like, but it was a good experience. > >Best regards, > >Carlosfelipe Pardo >Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator >GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) >Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 >Bogot? D.C., Colombia >Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 >carlos.pardo@gtz.de www.gtz.de >(carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org ) > > > >Simon Bishop wrote: > >Hi Madhav, > >I have been following much of the Times of India polemic over the BRT >system these last few days. To highlight the danger of the road >configuration they have focussed on a collision involving a grade separator >and the death of a motorcyclist who had died at 3 a.m after a night without >sleep and consumption of alcohol. > >Any road death is tragic. Our thoughts rest with this young man's family. >At the same time the paper can't ignore the other 85,000 road deaths a year >in India. Why single this death out and use it to rubbish the BRT? Most >road deaths occur on high speed roads where pedestrians, cyclists and the >disabled have no facility be it crossing or pavement. Some need to cross >for their livelihoods, others because they want to walk or cycle (children >especially), but all are always ignored by the traffic engineer as 'the >elephant in the room', a problem to be designed out of existence. By >contrast the BRT will have crossings. > >I propose that the Times of India, in the pursuit of balanced reporting, >should write about the absence of a speed control strategy, or rather the >presence of a speed encouragement strategy with flyovers and guard >railings, lulling the motorist into a false aspiration that his journey >will always be unencumbered. Where do you see guardrailings? At the >racecourse. The lack of accessible pedestrian and cycle crossings only >adds to the lethal cocktail and forces desperate measures. I look forward >to the The Times of India campaign to educate drivers about the tragic >consequences of speed and careless driving. I also look forward to the >Times persuading drivers that they must face more congestion sooner or >later and lobbying for accessible crossings that follow desire lines. >Maybe someone could work out the journey time savings for all the >beneficiaries and build an economic case for it?! > > > > > > > > > sustran-discuss-r > equest@list.jca.a > pc.org To > Sent by: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > sustran-discuss-b cc > ounces+simonb=ter > i.res.in@list.jca Subject > .apc.org Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 54, > Issue 16 > > 02/18/2008 08:31 > AM > > > Please respond to > sustran-discuss@l > ist.jca.apc.org > > > > > > >Send Sustran-discuss mailing list submissions to > sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > sustran-discuss-request@list.jca.apc.org > >You can reach the person managing the list at > sustran-discuss-owner@list.jca.apc.org > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >"Re: Contents of Sustran-discuss digest..." > > >######################################################################## >Sustran-discuss Mailing List Digest > >IMPORTANT NOTE: When replying please do not include the whole digest in >your reply - just include the relevant part of the specific message that >you are responding to. Many thanks. > >About this mailing list see: > http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss >######################################################################## > > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Sustainable transport and the media in India ... > (Madhav Badami, Prof.) > 2. Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... > (Madhav Badami, Prof.) > 3. Re: Sustainable transport and the media in India ... > (Sujit Patwardhan) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:57:47 -0500 >From: "Madhav Badami, Prof." > >Subject: [sustran] Sustainable transport and the media in India ... >To: "Sustran Resource Centre" > >Cc: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com, shovan1209@yahoo.com, > gerardn@rhd.gov.bd >Message-ID: > ><45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F06325684@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> ><45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F06325684@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Greetings all, > >I thank Yasmin Chowdhury for her ?Pricing public transit: learning from >Bangkok?, and Saiful Alam (and Eric Britton) for posting it. Yasmin?s >piece, and Lee?s response to it, reminded me of the attack that some >newspapers in Delhi (chiefly The Pioneer and the Times of India) launched >over several days on the High Capacity Bus System (HCBS), the BRT system >being currently implemented there. The items in these newspapers not only >criticized the implementation of the system, and its appropriateness for >Delhi, but the very concept of BRT, besides personally attacking Dinesh >Mohan of IIT Delhi, who, along with his colleague Geetam Tiwari, proposed >and conceptualized it. > >Two of the items, titled ?Experts Order Serial Rape of Delhi Roads: >Mindless HCBS plan derails traffic, destroys greenery, leaves city gasping? >and ?Will somebody wake up to stop this HCBS madness??, both of which >appeared as ?investigation? pieces in The Pioneer on November 6 and 7, may >be accessed at: > >http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov607 > > >http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cnov707 > > >The Times of India, a leading English language national daily effectively >made the same claims as in the above items, in several pieces, including >one titled ?Buses Hog Space, Cars Squeezed Out? on November 16. > >Feeling compelled to respond to these items (whose titles betray their >general tone and content), I wrote an article in which I attempted to rebut >them point by point, and sent it off to The Hindu, another leading English >language national daily. My article was not published as it was originally >written, because it was felt by the editor to be ?polemical?, and too long. >But he did publish (on December 5) a considerably condensed version in >which I removed specific references to the pieces in the Times of India and >the Pioneer. > >In the end, I was thankful for his decision, because, although it denied me >the opportunity to directly confront various specific claims made in the >pieces (such as, for example, that the decision to implement BRT was sold >by a cabal of experts to decision makers who accepted it in a hurry ? >actually, it was approved after having been debated and scrutinized at >length in various official committees since the mid-1990s), it resulted in >what I believe is a more carefully argued and tightly focused article, >which may be accessed at: > >http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/05/stories/2007120553611000.htm > >Apart from arguing that BRT systems have the potential, when properly >designed and implemented, to be low cost mass transit solutions that are >appropriate for rapidly motorizing, low-income country cities, I placed the >issue of BRT (and more generally, mass transit) in a larger context, by >making the case that policies to appropriately price and curb personal >motor vehicle use, and provide accessibility for pedestrians and cyclists, >are important for enhancing the effectiveness of mass transit, allowing all >modes (including cars and other personal motor vehicles) to operate more >efficiently, mitigating rapidly worsening urban transport impacts, and >promoting social justice on our roads. > >My purpose is not only to share my article (to which I welcome your >critical comments) but also to demonstrate what we are up against in >confronting the elite interests represented and served by the mainstream >media (with their pro-car, highway, flyovers, and metro, and >anti-pedestrian, NMT and bus transit prejudices), and arguing for more >environmentally sustainable and socially equitable alternatives. It is >little wonder that the Tata Nano has been largely applauded in the same >media as the greatest thing since sliced bread (or, if you wish, masala >dosa) ? including, as I recall, for the rural masses of this country, who >ostensibly have no unmet needs other than a 1-1.5 lakh rupee car. > >Cheers, > >Madhav > >************************************************************************ > >"As for the future, your task is not to foresee, but to enable it." >Antoine de Saint-Exupery > >Madhav G. Badami, PhD >School of Urban Planning and McGill School of Environment >McGill University >Macdonald-Harrington Building >815 Sherbrooke Street West >Montreal, QC, H3A 2K6, Canada > >Phone: 514-398-3183 (Work); 514-486-2370 (Home) >Fax: 514-398-8376; 514-398-1643 >URLs: www.mcgill.ca/urbanplanning >www.mcgill.ca/mse >e-mail: madhav.badami@mcgill.ca >-------------------------------------------------------- >IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > >Please go to >http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss >to join the real sustran-discuss and get full >membership rights. The yahoogroups version is >only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to >the real sustran-discuss (even if the >yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). >Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > >================================================================ >SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion >of people-centred, equitable and sustainable >transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From ashok.sreenivas at gmail.com Thu Feb 21 12:33:28 2008 From: ashok.sreenivas at gmail.com (Ashok Sreenivas) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:03:28 +0530 Subject: [sustran] =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Sustainable_transport_and_the_me?= =?windows-1252?Q?dia_=28in_India=2C_and_Bogot=E1=2C_and=2E=2E=2E=29?= In-Reply-To: <47BC4CC6.306@gmail.com> References: <47B9D97D.7010400@gmail.com> <7272a1b30802181730w76ba3457l395daf91c0c06f8b@mail.gmail.com> <20080219045116.8F6B12DF3B@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> <47BC0CD1.30908@gmail.com> <47BC4CC6.306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47BCF108.60109@gmail.com> The experience with the media in Pune was equally sad as they were only too keen to pounce on all the negatives (and thanks to the shoddy planning and implementation of our city authority, they had many opportunities), while being extremely reluctant to even understand the principles behind BRT. However, rare as they may be, there are occasions when the media does present a different angle and here are a couple of such articles (the title of the second article is misleading - do read it!). I have reproduced the article content below as the mail with just the links wasn't going through for some reason. (PS: All copyrights of the articles belong to Hindustan Times and Sify online respectively). Ashok *Hindustan Times, 20th Feb 08:* Seoul: A city that listened to its own voice In 2005, Seoul, one of the fastest growing global cities, did something our planners would not be able to even dream of. After consultation with citizens, it demolished a flyover and replaced it with a green corridor. Like Mumbai, challenged by huge growth ? 10.3 million, or 22 per cent of South Korea's population is in Seoul ? the city had built flyovers for faster transit into the financial district. But fed up with the road congestion and vehicular pollution, the city took a step back. Seoul demolished a 10-km-long, six-lane stretch of elevated road going into the city to reclaim the ancient Cheong Gye Cheon river, which flowed beneath it. It then developed a 5.8-km-long green corridor in the heart of this business district by involving its residents. ?We often sat through 72-hour meetings locked inside the community hall with all stake holders, including shopkeepers who would be affected by the demolition of the bridge,? said Dr Gyeng-Chul Kim, senior advisor with the Seoul Metropolitan Government. ?There was no getting out till we reached a resolution.? Dr Kim, who was in Mumbai on Tuesday for a presentation on 'Seoul's challenges for Sustainable City' termed this one of his favourite projects. The project took off on the strength of ?community participation?, encouraged by people who wanted green spaces. ?There were 4,000-odd meetings with all citizen groups before the project was finalised,? he added. A plan to rehabilitate shopkeepers was chalked out and parts of the old river embankment were preserved as demanded by heritage conservationists. Youngsters and women were the main campaigners for the revamp, which took 27 months to complete. Now, the waterfront hosts music concerts, art exhibitions, sports events, giving the city its much-needed open space. *Sify Online, 20th Feb 08:* *Small car, big achievement *V.V. Desai Wednesday, 20 February , 2008, 11:11 Makers of small cars view their products as a timely and remarkable innovation fulfilling the aspirations of India?s rising middle class, and as a solution to its urban transport problems. They are right about the first ? but completely wrong about the second. Carmakers also err in wishing away the huge costs of congestion and environmental impact of small cars. Public discourse needs to highlight these costs and demand urgent introduction of public policies fo r their moderation. The first small car off the block ? the Nano ? has won well-deserved accolades from all. Some regard it as an important milestone for the auto industry, in addition to being a very helpful product for the Indian consumer. The Nano and its determined competitors promise to supply 3-4 million cars annually from as early as 2013, just five short years from now. Contrary to the car-makers? assertions, the majority of these cars will end up in India?s metros and fast-growing cities such as Ahmedabad, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Pune, and so on. *Not the solution * Experience around the world shows that cars, small or large, are no longer the solution but a problem in urban transport. Cars use several times more road and parking space, as well as fuel per passenger km than public transport; they also spew far greater quantities of pollutants and gases. Globally, therefore, the bulk (60-90 per cent) of urban transport is provided by public transport systems (like in Jakarta, London, Seoul, Singapore, Tokyo), and cars play a minor role despite high car ownership in many countries. Low ownership and poor infrastructure in India will further limit the contribution of cars in urban transport to be marginal at best; the share of cars in transport in Mumbai and Delhi is estimated to be just about 10 per cent. Even such meagre additions to the car population will be accompanied by huge penalties in the form of aggravated congestion and associated environmental and other impacts. Road networks in the urban areas have miserably lagged behind the multi-fold rise in car population during the past 15 years. Roads are heavily congested and average car speeds have fallen to about 10-12 km/hour during peak hours in Mumbai, New Delhi and several other cities. The addition of several million small cars annually will worsen the congestion and push average speeds down to 5 km-10 km/hour. *The cost of smoke * Traffic congestion imposes heavy costs on the economy, estimated in some countries to be around 3-6 per cent of GDP. Congestion causes longer travel times and wastes several million person-hours. The more serious costs of congestion, however, come in the form of fuel wastage and increased air pollution and emissions. World Bank studies found that as average speeds start to go below 40 km/hr, fuel consumption begins to rise sharply, especially at speeds below 20 km/hr. At an average speed of 10 km/hr and 5 km/hr, consumption is more than four and six times that consumed at 40 km/hr. Corresponding increases also take place in particulates discharged and greenhouse gases emitted. Claims of high fuel-efficiency, high environmental standards and low negative impact for small cars are based on tests conducted under ?standardised? driving conditions. Unfortunately ?standardised? conditions have little relevance to ground realities. The environmental performance claimed for small cars, therefore, needs to be validated at very low speeds of 5km-10 km/hr ? the speeds they are likely to be driven at in urban centres. *What?s good for one, isn?t for all * Enhancing traffic capacity by building new roads, elevated expressways, flyovers, high-rise parking structures etc. is very expensive and time-consuming ? and provides only temporary relief. As soon as such facilities become available, they are overwhelmed by a flood of new cars, especially in such newly emerging economies as China and India. While the rapid spread of car ownership is unavoidable, policy-makers need to realise that cars are an impractical and wasteful mode of transport in urban areas from the viewpoint of the public-at-large, given the costs mentioned above. The answer lies in urgent development of public transport. The only way to control the use of cars for personal transportation is to minimise their excessive claim on urban road space at the cost of public transport. Restraints on car use have been applied in several cities around the world for a number of years now, and have been found to be effective in improving traffic flow and air quality. Policy measures include regulations to control access to certain areas during designated hours and/or days of the week, charges for congestion, registration and parking fees that reflect the true costs of providing infrastructure and space for driving and parking cars, and taxes to defray the environmental and public health costs attributable to car use. *Perverse incentives * Substantial experience and assessments are now available on the impact of measures for restraining car use in urban areas. These show that such restraint is critical in framing effective urban transport policies. It is also found that the costs to society and economy of driving cars far exceed taxes and fees collected from car-owners by public authorities ? hence, the need to urgently restructure fiscal policies. A World Bank study found that the current policies of Central and State governments in India have the perverse effect of subsidising private car use while heavily penalising public transport! Such perversity is aggravated by progressive lowering of excise duties on small cars in successive Budgets ? a point that the Finance Minister, P. Chidambaram, would do well to keep in mind. The justification that such lowering of duties is necessary to build a platform for a large domestic market and thus win global markets is simply untenable. Japan and Korea emerged as global car exporters in the 1960s and 1970s respectively, despite modest domestic car markets. *From bad to worse * Policy-makers must seriously re-consider the premise that the worsening transport situation in urban India can be addressed by the uncontrolled addition of privately owned cars. Far from resolving the urban transport problem, they will actually compound it and cause huge damage to the economy (traffic delays and loss of productivity) and the environment. The challenge of putting in place a programme for the rapid development of public transport, coupled with restraints on car use in urban areas, can be ignored only at the country?s own peril. From schipper at wri.org Thu Feb 21 12:35:27 2008 From: schipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:35:27 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_=5Bsustran=5D_Re=3A_Sustainable_transport_and_the_me?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?dia_=28in_India=2C_and_Bogot=E1=2C_and=2E=2E=2E=29?= References: <47B9D97D.7010400@gmail.com> <7272a1b30802181730w76ba3457l395daf91c0c06f8b@mail.gmail.com> <20080219045116.8F6B12DF3B@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> <47BC0CD1.30908@gmail.com> <47BC4CC6.306@gmail.com> <47BCF108.60109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C01220C90@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> And as Ashok knows. I said in front of the Mayor, Commissioner, etc in Pune in March or 2oo6 , "If you make 25% of the area of your city roads, like Los Angeles, you don't solve your transport problmes" and what did the HT/Mahrastra write? "DR Schipper Recommended that Pune devote 25% of its area to roads" Is there a lesson here? Lee Schipper EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org >From Oct 1, Visiting Scholar, UC Transportation Center UC Berkeley, CA www.uctc.net 510 642 6889 202 262 7476 Lee Schipper EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport www.embarq.wri.org >From Oct 1, Visiting Scholar, UC Transportation Center UC Berkeley, CA www.uctc.net 510 642 6889 202 262 7476 ________________________________ From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Ashok Sreenivas Sent: Wed 2/20/2008 7:33 PM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Sustainable transport and the media (in India, and Bogot?, and...) The experience with the media in Pune was equally sad as they were only too keen to pounce on all the negatives (and thanks to the shoddy planning and implementation of our city authority, they had many opportunities), while being extremely reluctant to even understand the principles behind BRT. However, rare as they may be, there are occasions when the media does present a different angle and here are a couple of such articles (the title of the second article is misleading - do read it!). I have reproduced the article content below as the mail with just the links wasn't going through for some reason. (PS: All copyrights of the articles belong to Hindustan Times and Sify online respectively). Ashok *Hindustan Times, 20th Feb 08:* Seoul: A city that listened to its own voice In 2005, Seoul, one of the fastest growing global cities, did something our planners would not be able to even dream of. After consultation with citizens, it demolished a flyover and replaced it with a green corridor. Like Mumbai, challenged by huge growth - 10.3 million, or 22 per cent of South Korea's population is in Seoul - the city had built flyovers for faster transit into the financial district. But fed up with the road congestion and vehicular pollution, the city took a step back. Seoul demolished a 10-km-long, six-lane stretch of elevated road going into the city to reclaim the ancient Cheong Gye Cheon river, which flowed beneath it. It then developed a 5.8-km-long green corridor in the heart of this business district by involving its residents. "We often sat through 72-hour meetings locked inside the community hall with all stake holders, including shopkeepers who would be affected by the demolition of the bridge," said Dr Gyeng-Chul Kim, senior advisor with the Seoul Metropolitan Government. "There was no getting out till we reached a resolution." Dr Kim, who was in Mumbai on Tuesday for a presentation on 'Seoul's challenges for Sustainable City' termed this one of his favourite projects. The project took off on the strength of "community participation", encouraged by people who wanted green spaces. "There were 4,000-odd meetings with all citizen groups before the project was finalised," he added. A plan to rehabilitate shopkeepers was chalked out and parts of the old river embankment were preserved as demanded by heritage conservationists. Youngsters and women were the main campaigners for the revamp, which took 27 months to complete. Now, the waterfront hosts music concerts, art exhibitions, sports events, giving the city its much-needed open space. *Sify Online, 20th Feb 08:* *Small car, big achievement *V.V. Desai Wednesday, 20 February , 2008, 11:11 Makers of small cars view their products as a timely and remarkable innovation fulfilling the aspirations of India's rising middle class, and as a solution to its urban transport problems. They are right about the first - but completely wrong about the second. Carmakers also err in wishing away the huge costs of congestion and environmental impact of small cars. Public discourse needs to highlight these costs and demand urgent introduction of public policies fo r their moderation. The first small car off the block - the Nano - has won well-deserved accolades from all. Some regard it as an important milestone for the auto industry, in addition to being a very helpful product for the Indian consumer. The Nano and its determined competitors promise to supply 3-4 million cars annually from as early as 2013, just five short years from now. Contrary to the car-makers' assertions, the majority of these cars will end up in India's metros and fast-growing cities such as Ahmedabad, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Pune, and so on. *Not the solution * Experience around the world shows that cars, small or large, are no longer the solution but a problem in urban transport. Cars use several times more road and parking space, as well as fuel per passenger km than public transport; they also spew far greater quantities of pollutants and gases. Globally, therefore, the bulk (60-90 per cent) of urban transport is provided by public transport systems (like in Jakarta, London, Seoul, Singapore, Tokyo), and cars play a minor role despite high car ownership in many countries. Low ownership and poor infrastructure in India will further limit the contribution of cars in urban transport to be marginal at best; the share of cars in transport in Mumbai and Delhi is estimated to be just about 10 per cent. Even such meagre additions to the car population will be accompanied by huge penalties in the form of aggravated congestion and associated environmental and other impacts. Road networks in the urban areas have miserably lagged behind the multi-fold rise in car population during the past 15 years. Roads are heavily congested and average car speeds have fallen to about 10-12 km/hour during peak hours in Mumbai, New Delhi and several other cities. The addition of several million small cars annually will worsen the congestion and push average speeds down to 5 km-10 km/hour. *The cost of smoke * Traffic congestion imposes heavy costs on the economy, estimated in some countries to be around 3-6 per cent of GDP. Congestion causes longer travel times and wastes several million person-hours. The more serious costs of congestion, however, come in the form of fuel wastage and increased air pollution and emissions. World Bank studies found that as average speeds start to go below 40 km/hr, fuel consumption begins to rise sharply, especially at speeds below 20 km/hr. At an average speed of 10 km/hr and 5 km/hr, consumption is more than four and six times that consumed at 40 km/hr. Corresponding increases also take place in particulates discharged and greenhouse gases emitted. Claims of high fuel-efficiency, high environmental standards and low negative impact for small cars are based on tests conducted under "standardised" driving conditions. Unfortunately "standardised" conditions have little relevance to ground realities. The environmental performance claimed for small cars, therefore, needs to be validated at very low speeds of 5km-10 km/hr - the speeds they are likely to be driven at in urban centres. *What's good for one, isn't for all * Enhancing traffic capacity by building new roads, elevated expressways, flyovers, high-rise parking structures etc. is very expensive and time-consuming - and provides only temporary relief. As soon as such facilities become available, they are overwhelmed by a flood of new cars, especially in such newly emerging economies as China and India. While the rapid spread of car ownership is unavoidable, policy-makers need to realise that cars are an impractical and wasteful mode of transport in urban areas from the viewpoint of the public-at-large, given the costs mentioned above. The answer lies in urgent development of public transport. The only way to control the use of cars for personal transportation is to minimise their excessive claim on urban road space at the cost of public transport. Restraints on car use have been applied in several cities around the world for a number of years now, and have been found to be effective in improving traffic flow and air quality. Policy measures include regulations to control access to certain areas during designated hours and/or days of the week, charges for congestion, registration and parking fees that reflect the true costs of providing infrastructure and space for driving and parking cars, and taxes to defray the environmental and public health costs attributable to car use. *Perverse incentives * Substantial experience and assessments are now available on the impact of measures for restraining car use in urban areas. These show that such restraint is critical in framing effective urban transport policies. It is also found that the costs to society and economy of driving cars far exceed taxes and fees collected from car-owners by public authorities - hence, the need to urgently restructure fiscal policies. A World Bank study found that the current policies of Central and State governments in India have the perverse effect of subsidising private car use while heavily penalising public transport! Such perversity is aggravated by progressive lowering of excise duties on small cars in successive Budgets - a point that the Finance Minister, P. Chidambaram, would do well to keep in mind. The justification that such lowering of duties is necessary to build a platform for a large domestic market and thus win global markets is simply untenable. Japan and Korea emerged as global car exporters in the 1960s and 1970s respectively, despite modest domestic car markets. *From bad to worse * Policy-makers must seriously re-consider the premise that the worsening transport situation in urban India can be addressed by the uncontrolled addition of privately owned cars. Far from resolving the urban transport problem, they will actually compound it and cause huge damage to the economy (traffic delays and loss of productivity) and the environment. The challenge of putting in place a programme for the rapid development of public transport, coupled with restraints on car use in urban areas, can be ignored only at the country's own peril. -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From paulbarter at nus.edu.sg Thu Feb 21 13:04:39 2008 From: paulbarter at nus.edu.sg (Paul Barter) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:04:39 +0800 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5Bsustran=5D_Re=3A_Sustainable_transport_and_the_media_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=28in_India=2C_and_Bogot=E1=2C_and=2E=2E=2E=29_?= References: Message-ID: Unfortunately, it appears that the attacks on Delhi's BRT have now drawn a policy response from the authorities. Urban Transport News (www.transportnews.com) alerts us that on 19 Feb the Chief Minister of Delhi, Sheila Dikshit, was reported (somewhat triumphantly by the Times of India) to have halted further BRT development beyond the initial corridor's first phase. Other routes will apparently need to wait until the initial phase proves its worth. I blogged a short item on this at http://reinventingtransport.blogspot.com and would welcome any comments or corrections. Paul From paulbarter at nus.edu.sg Thu Feb 21 13:18:08 2008 From: paulbarter at nus.edu.sg (Paul Barter) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:18:08 +0800 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5Bsustran=5D_Re=3A_Sustainable_transport_and_the_media_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=28in_India=2C_and_Bogot=E1=2C_and=2E=2E=2E=29_?= References: Message-ID: Oops. That link for Urban Transport News should have been www.transportnews.org From madhav.g.badami at mcgill.ca Thu Feb 21 15:44:22 2008 From: madhav.g.badami at mcgill.ca (Madhav Badami, Prof.) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 01:44:22 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_=5Bsustran=5D_Re=3A_Sustainable_transport_and_the_me?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?dia_=28in_India=2C_and_Bogot=E1=2C_and=2E=2E=2E=29_?= References: Message-ID: <45AEE06A4800AF4FAD8BEF09C433D85F063256CC@EXCHANGE2VS2.campus.mcgill.ca> Paul, et al, I was unaware of this latest decision because I have been avoiding reading the newspapers of late (I am holed up in Bangalore in South India on my sabbatical leave) ... but it appears that the power of the media to influence policy (negatively) is greater than I feared. By the way, due to the extensive (and persistent) criticisms of BRT in the media in November/December 2007, which I alluded to in my original posting on Sustran a few days ago, the Chief Minister of Delhi was under a considerable amount of pressure to go slow on the project. An important factor in this pressure being relieved was Mayor Ken Livingstone who, during his visit to Delhi in late November, praised the Metro (after the customary escorted ride accorded to all visiting dignitaries), but also praised the BRT project. Here is how the Indian Express, another leading English language national daily, reacted to his praise for the BRT project: Bad timing, Mayor London Mayor Ken Livingstone and the London Commissioner of Transport, Peter Hendey, unwittingly walked into a controversy during their recent visit to the national capital. Livingstone, known for many achievements as London Mayor, especially his environmental initiatives, is also renowned for his move to decongest London and his traffic management projects in the UK. On his visit, both he and the transport commissioner lauded the Delhi Government?s initiative to implement the High Capacity Bus System corridors. The timing could not have been worse, for the praise came on the heels of the first HCBS corridor accident. Angry citizens? groups wrote to the British High Commission, asking them to ensure that the Mayor withdraw his praise. Livingstone, meanwhile, had already gone to Mumbai. But the Londoner?s comments were like a shot in the arm for the Delhi Chief Minister. Dikshit and transport minister Haroon Yusuf had maintained an ominous silence in the aftermath of the accident. But the London team?s kudos allowed the CM to go on record saying that under no circumstance will the Government now withdraw its HCBS plans, leaving the citizens? groups fuming. As I was arguing, the opposition to BRT (based largely on implementation problems, such as the few tragic deaths in the construction area, which are attributed to the concept itself), but more generally, to non-car/highway/metro alternatives, in the mainstream Indian media is ? with a very few exceptions -- widespread (in other words, not restricted to one or two newspapers), sustained, and as we see now, quite effective. Madhav ************************************************************************ "As for the future, your task is not to foresee, but to enable it." Antoine de Saint-Exupery Madhav G. Badami, PhD School of Urban Planning and McGill School of Environment McGill University Macdonald-Harrington Building 815 Sherbrooke Street West Montreal, QC, H3A 2K6, Canada Phone: 514-398-3183 (Work); 514-486-2370 (Home) Fax: 514-398-8376; 514-398-1643 URLs: www.mcgill.ca/urbanplanning www.mcgill.ca/mse e-mail: madhav.badami@mcgill.ca -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+madhav.g.badami=mcgill.ca@list.jca.apc.org on behalf of Paul Barter Sent: Wed 2/20/2008 11:04 PM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Subject: [sustran] Re: Sustainable transport and the media (in India, and Bogot?, and...) Unfortunately, it appears that the attacks on Delhi's BRT have now drawn a policy response from the authorities. Urban Transport News (www.transportnews.com) alerts us that on 19 Feb the Chief Minister of Delhi, Sheila Dikshit, was reported (somewhat triumphantly by the Times of India) to have halted further BRT development beyond the initial corridor's first phase. Other routes will apparently need to wait until the initial phase proves its worth. I blogged a short item on this at http://reinventingtransport.blogspot.com and would welcome any comments or corrections. Paul -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From au.ables at gmail.com Thu Feb 21 19:08:52 2008 From: au.ables at gmail.com (Au ABLES) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 18:08:52 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Sustainable Urban Mobility in Asia (SUMA) News Digest 21 February 2008 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sustainable Urban Mobility in Asia (SUMA) News Digest Vol. 5 Issue 4 21 February 2008 SUMA News Digest is a free weekly e-mail publication that features news, information, and events related to sustainable urban transportation in Asia. To contribute articles, news items, or event announcements for the next issue, send an email with the complete details and URL source to suma-news-owner@googlegroups.com with subject "FOR SUMA NEWS". mailto: suma-news-owner@googlegroups.com?subject=FOR_SUMA_NEWS< suma-news-owner@googlegroups.com?subject=FOR_SUMA_NEWS>. Past issues from Feb 2007 are found at http://groups.google.com/group/suma-news *** VISIT THE SUMA PAGES: http://www.cleanairnet.org/suma *** * * * * * HEADLINES KARACHI, PAKISTAN: 'Mass Transit System only solution to transport problems' 18 February 2008 thenews.com.pk City Nazim, Syed Mustafa Kamal, has said that the Mass Transit System (MTS) was the only permanent solution of the transport problems in the city on which initial work will begin this year while a bus rapid system will also be worked out from April with the cooperation of the Asian Development Bank. http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72408.html BEIJING, PR CHINA: Cars sold to meet new emission standards 16 February 2008 09:41 GMT+8 Xinhua Chinese capital Beijing will ban the sale of new cars failing to meet new emission standards equivalent to Euro IV starting from March 1, a further move to cut air pollution and host a "green" Olympic Games. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2008-02/16/content_6460086.htm INDIA: High capacity bus system and the road beyond 05 December 2007 Madhav G. Badami, The Hindu (Opinion, Leader Page article) Bus Rapid Transit systems, like those being implemented in Delhi and other cities, can carry significantly far more people than conventional bus systems, and indeed, as many as some rail systems. By using road space efficiently and with minimal conflicts between modes, these systems can help meet mass mobility needs cost-effectively, safely, and equitably. http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72404.html More air quality and sustainable mobility news at http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/propertyvalue-14783.html * * * * * INTERESTING FINDS WTO Accession: Challenges and Opportunities for Railways in China (2007) Asian Development Bank's new report evaluates some of the major issues for railways in the People's Republic of China arising from World Trade Organization accession. Key policy recommendations are commercializing the operations and separating regulation from the enterprise functions of the Ministry of Railways. http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72403.html Congestion to Demotorisation - A Paradigm Shift for Bangalore Sudhir Gota and Prashant Mutalik of Secon Pvt. Ltd.- Bangalore propose "partial-demotorization" in an attempt to decongest Bangalore. A methodology to assess the congestion costs of Bangalore is presented in their paper. http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72398.html Presentations from International Symposium on Urban Energy and Carbon Management: Challenges for Science and Policy and International Workshop on Urban Energy and Carbon Modeling now available! The back-to-back symposium and forum were held from 4-6 February 2008 at the Asian Institute of Technology in Pathumthani, Thailand. The symposium focused on "policy issues and the science-policy interface between knowledge and actions in urban carbon management. The workshop is technical in nature and is designed primarily for researchers to address urban energy and carbon modeling." Dr. Shobhakar Dhakal from the Global Carbon Project reported that "the events decided to establish Urban Energy and Climate Modeling Forum, and further discussed concrete research collaboration opportunities, ways to bridge data gaps and to make publications in established international journals to enhance the state of knowledge in the area of urban energy and carbon management." Read the report and access the presentations at http://www.gcp-urcm.org/ * * * * * MARK YOUR CALENDARS Better Air Quality (BAQ) Workshop 2008 12-14 November 2008 Bangkok, Thailand Call for Abstracts ongoing; First Call for Pre-events http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72312.html Third Regional Environmentally Sustainable Transport (EST) Forum 17-19 Mar 2008 Singapore http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72269.html Travel Demand Management (TDM) Workshop/training course 19-20 March 2008 Singapore http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72399.html International Conference on Funding Transportation Infrastructure & la Dixi?me Journ?e Transport 19-20 Jun 2008 Paris, France http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72268.html 4th International Symposium on Travel Demand Management 16-18 Jul 2008 Vienna, Austria http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72218.html Towards Carfree Cities VIII 16-20 Jun 2008 Portland, Oregon, USA http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/article-72243.html See more SUT events http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/propertyvalue-27089.html See CAI-Asia's events calendar http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/propertyvalue-13577.html * * * * THANKS * * * * Thank you Sudhir Gota, Madhav Badami, Shobhakar Dhakal, Cornie Huizenga and Bert Fabian for your inputs; and to Jaja Panopio and Mike Co for uploading the articles. ? Aurora Fe Ables, Editor, SUMA News; Transport Specialist, CAI-Asia Center * * * ABOUT SUMA * * * The Sustainable Urban Mobility in Asia (SUMA) program of the Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities ( www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia), Asian Development Bank ( www.adb.org), EMBARQ-the World Resources Institute Center for Sustainable Transport ( http://embarq.wri.org ), GTZ Sustainable Urban Transport Project ( www.sutp.org), Interface for Cycling Expertise ( www.cycling.nl), Institute for Transportation and Development Policy ( www.itdp.org), and United Nations Center for Regional Development ( www.uncrd.or.jp/est) is made possible through the generous support of the Swedish International Development Cooperation Agency ( www.sida.se). SUMA works with Asian countries and cities to strengthen then formulation and implementation of sustainable urban transportation policies, specifically in (i) improving urban air quality by adopting AQM planning in sustainable transport policies and promoting public transportation, (ii) improving road safety by encouraging non-motorized transport and public transport, and (iii) reducing transport's contribution to climate change by adopting a co-benefits approach with urban air quality management. -- best regards, Au Aurora Fe Ables, P.Chem Transport Specialist Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities Center t. +63(2)395-2843 and 45 f. +63(2)395-2846 m. +63(919)237-4338 au.ables[at]cai-asia.org au.ables[at]gmail.com skype au.ables www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia -- best regards, Au Aurora Fe Ables, P.Chem Transport Specialist Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities Center t. +63(2)395-2843 and 45 f. +63(2)395-2846 m. +63(919)237-4338 au.ables[at]cai-asia.org au.ables[at]gmail.com skype au.ables www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia From cpbhatnagar at yahoo.co.in Fri Feb 22 13:49:01 2008 From: cpbhatnagar at yahoo.co.in (CP Bhatnagar) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 10:19:01 +0530 (IST) Subject: [sustran] Delhi BRT Message-ID: <17143.92310.qm@web94612.mail.in2.yahoo.com> This project is currently hogging newspaper headlines on account of its failure and has built-up considerable opposition in almost all circles. As someone who has been directly involved in this project, let me give my insider?s perspective. I got involved in the ITS aspect of what was the HCBS project, now re-christened BRT (after I argued in a note that the system proposed was not a high capacity one at all!). Initially, while a DIMTS employee, I had argued that the two terms had different connotations- this was then not accepted and I was told that two were one and the same. Later on, when it came to the ITS tendering, I designed a comprehensive ITS making assumptions that it was to be 1. a ?closed? system and 2. a ?high capacity? system (though these high capacities may take several years to materialize). Only then could we claim that a capacity about the same as the Metro, but at 1/10th cost could be achieved. Incidentally, failure on the HCBS front has also resulted in boosting of the Metro project, though at 10x the cost and at the expense of ruining the city?s landscape. I was told that the ITS had not been budgeted for at all (whereas at least 10% cost should have been)! The ?closed, high-capacity system? could ideally be along say, a North-South corridor since north-south traffic has currently to take the circuitous Ring Road route. Sensibly, there is now some talk of extending the current Ambedkar Nagar (south Delhi) to Delhi Gate to Jahangir Puri (north Delhi). Similarly East-West. Only ITS compatible buses would use the central reserved lanes. Ideally, only dedicated, single end-to-end route, with feeder services. The high capacity would be achieved through: 1. high-capacity buses (it is not clear as to why Trolley buses are not being used in Delhi as are elsewhere e.g. in Bagota. In fact, electric trolley buses- ETBs should be used keeping in mind the tremendous pollution problem in Delhi. CNG in fact is better used for power generation, fertilizers etc. than for transportation) and 2. ITS similar to that of the Metro, wherein the track length is divided into communication ?cells? which directly ?talk? to the moving vehicles along it. While the Metro uses the tracks as a medium, in HCBS, the connection will have to be Wireless (which in turn through an Optic fibre link to the control room). With the coming in of Wi-Max in India, such networking possibilities are enhanced. Instead of this, what was decided was: 1. an ?open system? wherein any bus could come into the corridor (possibly under political pressure since powerful nearby area Councillors put pressure) and 2. a BRT system, rather than a HCBS one, wherein each bus would merely have a GPS. It may be noted that GPS has already proved unfeasible in the past as well. The information furnished by GPS merely tells us about the timeliness of the service and does in no way serve as a communication or a networking medium. The problem has lain in the heart of the DIMTS organization- set up as a ?special purpose vehicle?, which manages the project. It has government retired old fogies in its roll, who have little incentive to perform, totally out of touch with recent advances in technology. Then there is the ?patronage? factor. Civil engineers who have scarcely seen the inside of a bus are masquerading as transportation experts, even while they cannot bring half the excellence should by the Metro in handling one single BRT corridor- the bad signages and re-routing have resulted in 4 fatalities. Hopefully, things may get better after the conversion of DIMTS into a PPP venture. There is also little concern at DIMTS about taking the ?system design? in its own hands, employing in-house experts for the purpose, rather than trying to merely serve as a supervising agency. As for me, I am an IITian with 3 engineering and management degrees and the best of experience. But considering the way I was treated, despite some outstanding work at DIMTS, I had little option but to leave. C.P.Bhatnagar Forgot the famous last words? Access your message archive online at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php From sppbpa at nus.edu.sg Sun Feb 24 09:34:20 2008 From: sppbpa at nus.edu.sg (Paul Barter) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 08:34:20 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Fw: Delhi BRT Message-ID: <000001c8767d$0023e0c0$006ba240$@edu.sg> These message from a non-member of the list was held by our hyperactive filters. Trying to forward to the list now. Paul --------- On Sat, 23/2/08, Muralidhar Rao wrote: Subject: GPS based bus tracking service Dear Mr Bhatnagar I refer to the following extracts from your comments on the Delhi BRTS It may be noted that GPS has already proved unfeasible in the past as well. The information furnished by GPS merely tells us about the timeliness of the service and does in no way serve as a communication or a networking medium. In this connection, I would like to invite you to visit the site http://www.clinf.com/yi/Index.html detailing a GPS based bus tracking service which had been working quite successfully in Bangalore. The users comments may also be accessed at //www.eventsbangalore.net/2007/03/01/yelli-iddira-where-r-u-tracking-bangalo re-volvo-buses/x I expect it will interest you. Regards, Muralidhar Rao ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Muralidhar Rao To: sustran-discuss@jca.apc.org Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 20:40:34 +0530 (IST) Subject: Fw: Delhi BRTS FYI --- On Sat, 23/2/08, Muralidhar Rao wrote: Subject: Delhi BRTS Dear Mr Bhatnagar What are ITS and DIMTS that you have referred to in your critique on the Delhi BRTS, please? Incidentally, Indore officials came to Bangalore and made a presentation on their version of BRTS. I was also an invitee to the meeting. I offered my comments as at http://bangalore.praja.in/blog/murali772/2008/01/12/definitely-better-what-w e-have-bangalore-today-not-good-enough I would also like to invite you to read the blog titled 'better bussing' to which a link has been provided in the above blog, as also my personal blog http://traffic-transport-solutions.blogspot.com/ Regards, Muralidhar Rao From richmond at alum.mit.edu Sun Feb 24 15:10:34 2008 From: richmond at alum.mit.edu (Jonathan Richmond) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:10:34 +0400 (Arabian Standard Time) Subject: [sustran] Re: Fw: Delhi BRT In-Reply-To: <000001c8767d$0023e0c0$006ba240$@edu.sg> References: <000001c8767d$0023e0c0$006ba240$@edu.sg> Message-ID: What we are planning to do in Mauritius is to combine GPS-style tracking with a comprehensive control system. The idea is to have an open busway that operates like a closed busway. The route has two parts. One uses a disused rail alignment, the other a new bus only lane to be put on a motorway. The two branches merge and continue along the motorway alignment to Port Louis. For both branches, bus routes will be able to join at a number of locations. There will also be express lanes to bypass stations and permit nonstop services. To avoid the sort of congestion which can plague this sort of open busway approach, a rail-like signalling system is proposed. Buses will face signals at all entrances to the system, at stations, and at other key points as they nake progress. Dividing the system into blocks, as on a railway, will ensure that no more buses are allowed into any one section than will ensure free flow -- although with the difference that the strict rail rule that no more than one train is allowed into a particular block at any one time can be relaxed to allow the optimum number of buses. A tracking system will be used to provide data on bus locations to a control tower, which will operate and monitor the performance of the signalling system. --Jonathan On Sun, 24 Feb 2008, Paul Barter wrote: > These message from a non-member of the list was held by our hyperactive > filters. Trying to forward to the list now. > > Paul > --------- > > On Sat, 23/2/08, Muralidhar Rao wrote: > > Subject: GPS based bus tracking service > > Dear Mr Bhatnagar > > I refer to the following extracts from your comments on the Delhi BRTS > > It may be noted that GPS has already proved unfeasible in the past as > well. The information furnished by GPS merely tells us about the timeliness > of the service and does in no way serve as a communication or a networking > medium. > > In this connection, I would like to invite you to visit the site > http://www.clinf.com/yi/Index.html > detailing a GPS based bus tracking service which had been working quite > successfully in Bangalore. The users comments may also be accessed at > > //www.eventsbangalore.net/2007/03/01/yelli-iddira-where-r-u-tracking-bangalo > re-volvo-buses/x > > I expect it will interest you. > > Regards, Muralidhar Rao > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Muralidhar Rao > To: sustran-discuss@jca.apc.org > Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 20:40:34 +0530 (IST) > Subject: Fw: Delhi BRTS > FYI > > --- On Sat, 23/2/08, Muralidhar Rao wrote: > > Subject: Delhi BRTS > > Dear Mr Bhatnagar > > What are ITS and DIMTS that you have referred to in your critique on the > Delhi BRTS, please? > > Incidentally, Indore officials came to Bangalore and made a presentation > on their version of BRTS. I was also an invitee to the meeting. I offered my > comments as at > http://bangalore.praja.in/blog/murali772/2008/01/12/definitely-better-what-w > e-have-bangalore-today-not-good-enough > > I would also like to invite you to read the blog titled 'better bussing' > to which a link has been provided in the above blog, as also my personal > blog > > http://traffic-transport-solutions.blogspot.com/ > > Regards, Muralidhar Rao > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). > ----- Jonathan Richmond Transport Adviser to the Government of Mauritius Ministry of Public Infrastructure, Land Transport and Shipping Level 4 New Government Centre Port Louis Mauritius +230 707-1134 (Mauritius mobile: most reliable way to reach me at all times) +1 (617) 395-4360 (US phone number rings at home -- call me in Mauritius for the price of a call to the US). +1 (425) 998-0998 (US phone number, connects to mobile phone when in wifi zone, or goes to voice mail) +44 (0)7978 807532 (UK mobile number, connects to mobile phone when in wifi zone, or goes to voice mail). This is also a SIP number. If you have a SIP phone you can reach me by dialing: sip:447978807532@truphone.com >From Google Talk you can add me as a contact by clicking add and then entering ext+447978807532@truphone.com. Clicking on this address will then ring my mobile phone when I am in a wifi zone, or go to voice mail at other times. e-mail: richmond@alum.mit.edu http://the-tech.mit.edu/~richmond/ From bert.fabian at cai-asia.org Mon Feb 25 17:53:59 2008 From: bert.fabian at cai-asia.org (Bert Fabian) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 16:53:59 +0800 Subject: [sustran] [Fwd: [cai-asia] Re-sending Job opening: Transport Researcher, CAI-Asia Center (deadline 27 Feb 2008)]] Message-ID: <47C28227.7020807@cai-asia.org> TRANSPORT RESEARCHER Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities (CAI-Asia) Center, Inc. Application Reference: Transport Researcher Division/Unit: Transport Unit Location: Manila, Philippines, with local/international travel Duration of Appointment: Regular staff (3 months probation) Estimated Start Date: March 2008 Deadline for Application: 27 February 2008 1.BACKGROUND TO CAI-ASIA The Clean Air Initiative for Asian Cities (CAI-Asia) was established in 2001 as a joint initiative of the Asian Development Bank, the World Bank and the former United States - Asia Environmental Partnership, to promote and demonstrate innovative ways to improve the air quality of Asian cities by sharing experiences and building partnerships. The multi-stakeholder initiative became formalized in 2007 as: - The CAI-Asia Partnership with over 130 members, which is to be registered as a Type II partnership with the UN - The CAI-Asia Center, a nonprofit organization based in Manila, the Philippines, which acts as the secretariat to the CAI-Asia Partnership - CAI-Asia Local Networks in China, India (as of 2008), Indonesia, Pakistan, Philippines, Nepal, Sri Lanka and Viet Nam 2. RESPONSIBILITIES AND SCOPE OF WORK Under the direct supervision of the Transport Unit Head, the Transport Researcher shall support the implementation of programs and projects of the CAI-Asia Center and take the lead on the knowledge management efforts related to transportation issues. A. Project Development and Implementation - Assist the Transport Unit Head in the development and implementation of programs and projects on transportation issues (i.e. related to contribution of land transportation to air pollution and greenhouse gas emissions, fuel and vehicle technology, and transportation planning and demand management). This includes the preparation of project reports, meeting proceedings, presentations, workshops, conferences and events, including logistical and administrative arrangements - Assist the Transport Unit Head in implementing the Sustainable Urban Mobility in Asia (SUMA) Program - Provide information and support to CAI-Asia Local Networks in various Asian countries on transportation issues - Provide technical inputs to the program of Better Air Quality Workshops co-organized every two years by the CAI-Asia Center - Deliver other tasks assigned by the Transport Unit Head and/or Deputy Executive Director of the Center B. Inputs to Knowledge Management and Capacity Building - Take the lead in implementing knowledge management under the SUMA program and of the CAI-Asia Center on transportation issues * Contribute to the research and profiling of transportation-related studies, projects, initiatives, and other materials relevant for Asia and post on the CAI-Asia website * Issue weekly e-newsletters under the SUMA program * Maintain an up-to-date SUT Stakeholders Directory for Asia * Write articles for publication and inclusion on the CAI-Asia website * Write summaries of urban transportation situations for selected cities as part of the Country Synthesis Reports on urban air quality management - Provide input to the development and delivery of training modules and courses on transportation and urban air quality 3. ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS AND CRITERIA - A university degree in environmental sciences, environmental management, natural sciences, engineering, communication, and/or development-related discipline. An advanced degree in transportation planning and/or engineering is preferred - At least 3-5 years experience in transportation ? related issues - International work experience in Asian developing countries is an advantage - Excellent oral and written communication skills, fluency in English, initiative and good interpersonal skills - Ability to work independently and as part of multi-cultural and multi-disciplinary team - Proficiency in Microsoft Office applications required, and database and website development experience is an advantage 4. DURATION AND REMUNERATION The selected candidate will be appointed for a two year position with a 3-month probationary period. The basic monthly salary starts at 86,470 PHP, subject to tax imposed by the Government of the Philippines. In addition, social benefits as required under Philippines law will be provided (SSS, PhilHealth and HDMF contributions, and 13th month). Leave entitlements include 24 incentive leave days (paid vacations and sick days) and 11 regular holidays per year. This position is open to Filipino and international candidates. In the case of an international recruitment the CAI-Asia Center will pay for one international airfare at the beginning and end of the contract. A modest relocation grant, equivalent to one month net salary will be paid as well. 5. HOW TO APPLY Quoting reference application Transport Researcher on subject line, applicants should email their application letter and current CV (as Word attachments) to Ms. Gianina Panopio (gianina.panopio@cai-asia.org ), no later than 27 February 2008, 5:00 pm, Manila time. All applicants should state the reasons for their interest in the position, relevant details of qualifications and experience, and contact details for three referees. Only short listed candidates will be contacted. For further information on the position please contact Mr. Bert Fabian of the CAI-Asia Center at bert.fabian@cai-asia.org . --- You are currently subscribed to cai-asia as: mike.co@cai-asia.org . To view archived messages, go to http://groups.google.com/group/cai-asia. Important note: This is a moderated listserv. If you encounter problems, or if you would like to remove your name from our listserv, email Mike Co [mike.co(at)cai-asia(dot)org] AND Gianina Panopio [gianina.panopio(at)cai-asia(dot)org] Please do not email your complaints directly to the listserv. --- You are currently subscribed to cai-asia as: center@cai-asia.org . To view archived messages, go to http://groups.google.com/group/cai-asia. Important note: This is a moderated listserv. If you encounter problems, or if you would like to remove your name from our listserv, email Mike Co [mike.co(at)cai-asia(dot)org] AND Gianina Panopio [gianina.panopio(at)cai-asia(dot)org] Please do not email your complaints directly to the listserv. --- You are currently subscribed to cai-asia as: bert.fabian@cai-asia.org. To view archived messages, go to http://groups.google.com/group/cai-asia. Important note: This is a moderated listserv. If you encounter problems, or if you would like to remove your name from our listserv, email Mike Co [mike.co(at)cai-asia(dot)org] AND Gianina Panopio [gianina.panopio(at)cai-asia(dot)org] Please do not email your complaints directly to the listserv. From cpbhatnagar at yahoo.co.in Mon Feb 25 13:47:16 2008 From: cpbhatnagar at yahoo.co.in (CP Bhatnagar) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 10:17:16 +0530 (IST) Subject: [sustran] LEVELS OF BUS NETWORKS Message-ID: <106258.98656.qm@web94603.mail.in2.yahoo.com> 1. Level I: The basic level is when buses are run without too much control. Perhaps a nominal timetable exists, which the operator is expected to follow through self-discipline. 2. Level II: Next level is when we attach a GPS atop each bus monitored by a control room. Now, we can track in real time and record the same so we can do critical deviational analysis and pinpoint shortcomings and glitches such as delayed start-ups and critical traffic bottlenecks en-route. We may also simultaneously graduate to printed ticketing. This done, the scheme is considered ?successful? and a far advance over what is prevalent. Examples: Bangalore and Indore. 3. Level III: Next level is when we build dedicated bus corridors- either in the inside or the outside lanes- so the remaining traffic cannot intrude. The problem here is that the space for buses has been filched at the expense of remaining personalized traffic, which now has one less lane. When it is seen that the bus lane is not fully occupied, there is great anger on part of the personalized vehicle owners, who feel cheated. Perhaps, in addition to printed ticketing, some Passenger Information System has been added at the bus stops. Yet, this is considered even a greater success if we do not take into account the immense cost involved in achieving just this much. This is generally the BRT level. 4. Level VI: Next level is when we consider the available road space to be a ?precious commodity? and are interested in its fullest utilization through close packing of vehicles. Then we have moved to the HCBS level. Here we attempt to maximize passenger handling capacity. This is done through networking and automation using electronics. The corridors are now ?wired? with Optic-fibre and link the control room as well as the bus depots. In turn, they identify and ?speak? to the moving buses with on-board equipment (but no GPS) through wireless- Wi-Max, say. Only ITS compatible buses can use this corridor. The bus driver is automatically directed as to the desired speed and other operational parameters. The passengers get an on-board PIS. Ticketing data is now recorded and transferred real-time. The docking of the bus at the stations is exact and passenger ingress-egress quick and efficient. The intersections give priority to corridor buses. Pedestrian lights are automatically controlled as well. CCTV cameras give security coverage and inform visually about traffic bottlenecks en-route. This is the real HCBS where high-capacity Trolley buses (ideally electric powered, with regenerative braking through overhead lines) are being run to as little as 30 second frequency and hence maximize the road space utilization. This is when we achieve equivalent of the Metro?s capacity at 1/10th the cost! This is what the Delhi system needs to achieve eventually. PS: I need to be enlightened as why so much public money is being spent on re-building the (elevated) bus lane (vested interests?). Instead, why cant a simpler solution to isolating the bus lane from the normal traffic be found? And, instead, why can?t some of the money saved thus, be invested into holistic systems design and better electronic networking (Intelligent Transport System- ITS) using the very latest in technology. Yes, networking costs are going to be high in the short-run since most of the on-board equipment will have to come from the west, but in the long-run, this can be indigenized easily considering the large no. of buses involved. C.P.Bhatnagar Delhi Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ From edelman at greenidea.eu Mon Feb 25 21:09:10 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 13:09:10 +0100 Subject: [sustran] UITP + UNEP: 'The world is your home' TV ad Message-ID: <47C2AFE6.6030606@greenidea.eu> Hi all, From UITP: "UITP and the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) have launched a joint television campaign to encourage individuals to take public transport - a mobility choice that can help reduce the carbon emissions that contribute to climate change." The TV ad is available for viewing/downloading in English, French,German and Spanish. It is also possible to get the original and do other translations. See here: http://www.uitp.org/advocacy/theworldisyourhome.cfm They did a similar ad in 2005, which is posted on You Tube: . If you look around you can find versions in other languages. *** Obviously we on these lists know the message well and already communicate it to people all the time. So I am curious what people think about how this ad will work for others. Unfortunately - unlike with the 2005 ad - there is no feedback form on the UITP website. In lieu of that I am happy to pass along comments to the people at UITP who were involved in this. I am also sending it to people who are not members of these lists - "normal people" - to see what they think. I encourage you to do the same... though of course they might see it on TV. And hopefully people who see the ad don't see any of this: Have fun, T -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. From edelman at greenidea.eu Tue Feb 26 04:43:36 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 20:43:36 +0100 Subject: [sustran] [Fwd: [carfree_network] Carfree Conference -- Early Registration ends Feb 29!] Message-ID: <47C31A68.1040605@greenidea.eu> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [carfree_network] Carfree Conference -- Early Registration ends Feb 29! Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 10:51:17 -0800 From: Eleanor Blue To: Portland Car Free Day , SHIFT Listserve , Trans - Action , carfree network-lists.riseup.net Hi all, This is a reminder that if you are planning to come to the Towards Carfree Cities conference this June 16 - 20 here in Portland, our early registration deadline is this Friday, February 29th. The registration fee goes up 25% starting March 1st. You can register and find out more about our rates at carfreeportland.org You can take a sneak peek at the draft program at http://www.carfreeportland.org/program/draft -- this will be changing over the next two weeks. Also, when you're planning your travel, don't forget about other fun events happening in Portland around the same time as the conference: - June 12- 28: Pedalpalooza, 2 + weeks of bike fun (http://www.shift2bikes.org/cal/viewpp2008.php) - June 22: Sunday Parkways, Portland's first-ever ciclovia street closure (http://www.portlandonline.com/transportation/index.cfm?c=egbad) - June 28: Multnomah County Bike Fair, the biggest and most infamous event of its type in the world (http://homepage.mac.com/trorb/BikeTV/iMovieTheater58.html) See you in June! Elly Blue Conference Coordinator Towards Carfree Cities VIII [carfree_network] list guidelines and unsubscribe information are found at http://www.worldcarfree.net/listservs/. Send messages for the entire list to carfree_network@lists.riseup.net. Send replies to individuals off-list. -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it. From jay at trealestate.net Thu Feb 28 01:38:56 2008 From: jay at trealestate.net (Jay Corrales) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 08:38:56 -0800 Subject: [sustran] U.S. Green Building Council LEED Sustainable Sites TAG Core Committee Positions Message-ID: <2dd5676f0802270838h2e8f8567q2246b3ef5ba848f1@mail.gmail.com> Seeking candidates that have knowledge in "Alternative Transportation (Public Transportation Access, Bicycle Storage & Changing Rooms, Low-Emitting and Fuel Efficient Vehicles, Parking Capacity)". To read more about USGBC and LEED, visit http://www.usgbc.org/ -- Sincerely, Jay Corrales, Manager Turner Real Estate (760) 433-1505 Residential Green Building Advocate U.S. Green Building Council - San Diego Chapter LEED for Homes Provider Representative Davis Energy Group ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: LEED SS TAG Committee Date: Feb 27, 2008 6:18 AM Subject: LEED Sustainable Sites TAG Core Committee Positions To: jay@trealestate.net *LEED Sustainable Sites TAG ? Core Committee Appointments* The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC) is seeking expressions of interest from qualified applicants to serve as members of the LEED(R) Sustainable Sites Technical Advisory Group (SS TAG) Core Committee. The SS TAG advises the LEED product committees, the LEED Steering Committee and USGBC staff on technical matters for product development and credit interpretation requests. The TAG also maintains consistency in the methods of assessment and stringency of standards across the LEED rating system portfolio of products as this relates to credits within the Sustainable Sites category. There are currently two vacant positions on the Core Committee. The TAG is made up of individuals with diverse areas of expertise. At this time, we are especially interested in new members with expertise in the following areas: - overall experience with the LEED rating systems - specific expertise on the following topics in relation to new commercial and institutional construction, as well as larger developments: - Alternative Transportation (Public Transportation Access, Bicycle Storage & Changing Rooms, Low-Emitting and Fuel Efficient Vehicles, Parking Capacity) - Heat Island Effect (Roof, Non-Roof) Core Committee members must be able and willing to commit at least two hours per week to the SS TAG. Regularly scheduled committee meetings are held via conference call at least every two weeks on Wednesdays between 2:00pm and 3:00pm ET. Additional conference calls are scheduled as needed. Any USGBC member interested in serving on the LEED SS TAG Core Committee must complete the online SS TAG Expression of Interest Form(or copy and paste this link into your browser: http://www.zoomerang.com/survey.zgi?p=WEB227GRR8EYBL). Please do not misplace this e-mail. This email announcement is only being sent to the SS TAG corresponding committee members; this announcement will not be posted publicly or to the whole of the USGBC membership. The selection of committee members will be based on the criteria listed below: - SS TAG Corresponding Committee membership (if you are not yet an SS TAG Corresponding Committee member, you can join by visiting www.usgbc.org, clicking on "Your Account," logging in, clicking on "Committees," and "Join" for the SS TAG Corresponding Committee) - LEED Accreditation - LEED Certified or Registered Project Experience - Practical experience and technical expertise related to the abovementioned credit areas - Experience and expertise related to other SS credits - Sustainable design experience - LEED product development experience The deadline for submissions is 5:00 PM PT on March 14, 2008. Please email ss@committees.usgbc.org with any questions. Thank you. *If at any time you wish to be removed from the SS TAG Corresponding Committee, please go to www.usgbc.org, go to "Your Account" and "Committee Subscriptions" and click "Remove" next to SS TAG.* --- You are currently subscribed to leed-ss as: jay@trealestate.net. From edelman at greenidea.eu Thu Feb 28 20:29:16 2008 From: edelman at greenidea.eu (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:29:16 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Health Benefits of London Congestion Charge Message-ID: <47C69B0C.2050500@greenidea.eu> Hi, This from Nina Renshaw, T&E - The European Federation for Transport and Environment, www.transportenvironment.org "An interesting story on the BBC today on the positive side effects of the London congestion charge, especially for those of you taking part in the Urban Mobility consultation: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7266687.stm n.b. ?While acknowledging that the benefits were fairly "modest" in size, the researchers said that traffic-cutting schemes could still be considered as potentially health-improving policies. They wrote: "Policies affecting a larger geographical area and residential population, and which directly aim to reduce vehicle emissions, are likely to have larger public health impacts." Thanks, Nina! *** comments from Todd: * I don't understand how the health benefits could be a surprise... and related to that: * These weird, abstract statistics, e.g. "...1,888 extra years of life had been saved among the city's seven million residents..." are not very helpful. -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunni 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net CAR is over. If you WANT it.