[sustran] Re: The right to walk and mayors' toys

[Dr Adhiraj Joglekar]

Dear Carlos,
Completely agree. Your follow up questions are vital. Pune, India and
its BRT are a prime example of leaders using projects as tick boxes on
their public CV. The Pune common wealth games (Oct 08) website talks
of BRT as a great accomplishment. Amazing given that in over 18 months
since start date there are sections with no footpaths, no cycle lanes
that were promised and even road markings are missing on sections.
Selfishness combined with shortsightedness make a lethal combination.
In India right now this combination is more potent than HIV where some
anti-retrovirals work, here we have no treatment leave aside cure.
Cheers,
Adhiraj

On 8/22/08, Carlosfelipe Pardo <carlosfpardo at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dr Adhiraj,
>
> Regarding your last question (why "the push for grand PT initiatives
> when the fundamentals are completely missing?"), I would say that this
> is because many mayors need a big toy to show everyone else as "their
> contribution to the city". A mayor who builds a metro or at least leaves
> a big hole for the metro to be built will be seen as a "good mayor"
> (since building it will take longer than their mandate, at least 95% of
> the times). On the other hand, if they change a full set of policies or
> develop a citywide vision that shall be implemented in the future, or
> reorganize institutions in order to provide a better service in future
> for cities, many will say that they did nothing, and they will not be
> eligible to run for president or be reelected... which seems to be their
> real interest. The quest for power as an end in itself will never fix a
> city, and will most probably damage it. Power as a means to various ends
> is what seems to be lacking in policymakers. The most interesting part
> of it is that those who really see power as a means and succeed in
> implementing that vision are most probably reelected in future! (for
> this I can't provide figures, but I'm almost sure this is the case).
>
> The followup question would then be "what can we do?" Build better
> institutions? Improve citizens' ability to demand changes in policies?
> Train mayors?? Educate the population with the money that is being spent
> in fuel subsidies??? Ideas and experiences are most welcome.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Carlos.
>
> Dr Adhiraj Joglekar wrote:
>> I have followed this thread with interest. Somehow I think we are
>> listening to what fits our interest more. The theme has moved away
>> from pedestrians to public transport. Fact is that with or without PT,
>> pedestrian facilities are a must. Right now they are missing in the
>> very cities that talk about BRT and Metros. Its hard to find 500
>> meters of footpaths free of obstructions and made to std specifics of
>> IRC that recommends 1.5m wide footpaths on both sides as a minimum.
>> When Kanthi refers to speed, its because these are reduced due
>> unsystematic mix of peds with vehicles. The dividers are also put up
>> in illogical manner, more to stop vehicles from plying on wrong side
>> (when 2 solid painted lines will suffice in Western nations). They are
>> so long that peds are forced to breach them as they seem to do what
>> the Berlin wall did. There are no pedetrian refuge's to be seen
>> anywhere. The zebra is not respected due to ignorance as well as lack
>> of implementing rules. How many road users in India are aware the
>> Zebra belongs to pedestrians? Hardly, as they would otherwise have
>> reclaimed it, instead they feel obliged if they manage to cross
>> safely. Sujit has a valid point, we need one city wide vision and an
>> operational plan for getting pedestrian facilities. Kanthi has
>> clarified this is what she meant by short and long term. I fail to
>> understand the push for grand PT initiatives when the fundamentals are
>> completely missing?
>> Adhiraj
>>
>> On 8/22/08, sustran-discuss-request at list.jca.apc.org
>> <sustran-discuss-request at list.jca.apc.org> wrote:
>>
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>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>    1. Re: Right to Walk and Pollution in Hyd: Interesting read (Sunny)
>>>    2. Re: Right to Walk and Pollution in Hyd: Interesting read
>>>       (Sujit Patwardhan)
>>>    3. Re: Right to Walk and Pollution in Hyd: Interesting read (Sudhir)
>>>    4. [NewMobilityCafe] Re: Right to Walk and Pollution in Hyd:
>>>       Interesting read (Sujit Patwardhan)
>>>    5. Re: Right to Walk and Pollution in Hyd: Interesting read
>>>       (Kanthi Kannan)
>>>    6. Re: Right to Walk and Pollution in Hyd: Interesting read
>>>       (Carlosfelipe Pardo)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 10:26:22 +0700
>>> From: Sunny <sksunny at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [sustran] Re: Right to Walk and Pollution in Hyd: Interesting
>>> 	read
>>> To: kanthikannan at gmail.com
>>> Cc: NewMobilityCafe at yahoogroups.com, sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
>>> Message-ID:
>>> 	<255cf00808202026k719fd933kb12b242d9d3ff1f1 at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252
>>>
>>>    Dear Kanthi,
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot for the reference.
>>>
>>> I am doubtful on how having pedestrian crossings will increase traffic
>>> speeds, unless such crossing mean building over-bridges - which take
>>> space
>>> from the foot-paths and worsen the pain of pedestrians to cross a road.
>>> The
>>> argument is simple "Why should a pedestrian climb up and down a (long)
>>> bridge, just for a car to go fast?"
>>>
>>> Since you belong to the Right to Walk foundation, it would be great if
>>> you
>>> can lobby for the pedestrians and cyclists and against the FOB it would
>>> be a
>>> great step.
>>>
>>> Mixing traffic might not be a bad idea unless done in a very fashionable
>>> way, see the concept of shared space for more info. There are cases of
>>> reduced accidents and better driver behaviour in areas with shared space.
>>>
>>> Also in terms of pollution, the FOB's use cement and need extra lighting
>>> (electricity) which are good contributors for pollution and so are
>>> widened
>>> roads
>>>
>>> It will be very useful for the group (and esp. for myself) if you can
>>> elaborate on the short term and long term measures that you were talking
>>> of
>>> in Hyderabad.
>>>
>>> thanks again for the mail and best of luck!
>>> cheers
>>> sunny
>>>
>>> Kanthi Kannan wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.epa.gov/ies/pdf/india/iesfinal_0405.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>> The study in the link given above is a well documented effort by a US
>>> agency
>>> and an Indian agency about the various facets of pollution control.
>>> Throughout the Study one of the major pollution reduction strategies
>>> suggested is Separation of Vulnerable Road Users (Provision of Footpath).
>>> I quote: "The intermixing of vehicles and pedestrian movements in the
>>> absence of footpaths results in reduced speeds and increase in number of
>>> accidents. The provision of footpaths and pedestrian crossings and can
>>> reduce these conflicts to a great extent and increase the average speed."
>>> The statistics given in support of the suggestion is interesting to
>>> check.
>>>
>>> In Hyderabad, the Right to Walk Foundation is trying to check with the
>>> Andhra Pradesh Pollution Control Board (APPCB) as to whether any of these
>>> recommendations have been adopted?
>>>
>>> Needless to say that widened roads are replacing the existing footpaths
>>> because the authorities feel that widened roads are the solution for all
>>> traffic problems.
>>>
>>> We definitely need to take a few short term measures and a few long term
>>> strategies so that our city does not have the tag of the most polluted
>>> metro
>>> in the country.
>>>
>>> Kanthi Kannan
>>>
>>> The Right to Walk Foundation
>>> www.right2walk.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via
>>> YAHOOGROUPS.
>>>
>>> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss
>>> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The
>>> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post
>>> to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it
>>> seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
>>>
>>> ================================================================
>>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
>>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
>>> countries (the 'Global South').
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>>
>>> *Santhosh (Sunny) Kodukula*
>>>
>>> Urban Transport Expert
>>> GTZ ? Sustainable Urban Transport Project (SUTP)
>>> 0942, Transport and Tourism Division,
>>> UNITED NATIONS, ESCAP Building,
>>> Rajadamnern Nok Ave.,
>>> Bangkok 10200, THAILAND
>>>
>>> Ph: +66 (0)2 288 1321
>>> Fax: +66 (0)2 280 6042
>>> Mob:+66 (0)84 113 0181
>>> Email: santhosh.kodukula [at] sutp.org
>>> Skype: sunny_nwho
>>> Web: http://www.sutp.org
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 09:48:07 +0530
>>> From: "Sujit Patwardhan" <sujitjp at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [sustran] Re: Right to Walk and Pollution in Hyd: Interesting
>>> 	read
>>> To: "Kanthi Kannan" <kanthikannan at gmail.com>
>>> Cc: NewMobilityCafe at yahoogroups.com,	Global 'South' Sustainable
>>> 	Transport <sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
>>> Message-ID:
>>> 	<4cfd20aa0808202118l4214d496j9b479766d5604328 at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>> *
>>> in response to Kanthi Kannan's mail*
>>>
>>> I don't see much difference between short term measures and the long term
>>> ones. Basically whether in the short term or long we need:-
>>>
>>> -- radically improved adequate, efficient and affordable Public Transport
>>> -- safe, attractive and adequately wide pedestrian footpaths (not the
>>> same
>>> as Skywalks)
>>> -- safe, comfortable (good surface) and citywide bicycle paths. These
>>> need
>>> not be exclusive or protected ones on all the streets, ie in congested
>>> areas
>>> sharing the street with motor vehicles should be possible provided
>>> traffic
>>> calming is introduced and rigidly enforced. City bike scheme like Velib
>>> in
>>> Paris after thorough planning
>>> -- appropriate TDM measures to discourage use of personal auto vehicle
>>> use
>>> at least during peak hours - the usual options are tighter parking
>>> control,
>>> higher parking charges, congestion charging, auto vehicle-free areas,
>>> pollution taxes etc
>>>
>>> One should avoid talking in terms of short term and long term strategies
>>> as
>>> this gives too wide an option to an administration that isn't really keen
>>> to
>>> do anything for sustainable transportation/new mobility but seems to be
>>> pre-programmed to build more and more facilities to reduce the problems
>>> for
>>> the auto vehicles. As a concrete example the Comprehensive Mobility Plan
>>> for
>>> Pune has a Trojan horse in form of a statement "flyovers may be built as
>>> an
>>> interim measure in view of many more people with higher incomes wanting
>>> to
>>> buy cars". In one of the meetings we asked the consultants if they were
>>> "interim" would they be demolished in a couple of years? The answer was
>>> of
>>> course a very uncomfortable smile (or a smirk)?? !!!!!
>>>
>>> Rest of the Mobility Plan talks the language of the National Urban
>>> Transport
>>> Policy (which said "People not vehicles" will be at the centre of
>>> mobility
>>> planning. It also said personal vehicles need to be discouraged and
>>> public
>>> transport pedestrians and cyclists given a boost).
>>>
>>> It's time to stop our city bosses from getting away with this kind of
>>> sabotage.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sujit Patwardhan
>>> Parisar
>>> Pune
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 7:37 AM, Kanthi Kannan
>>> <kanthikannan at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> http://www.epa.gov/ies/pdf/india/iesfinal_0405.pdf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The study in the link given above is a well documented effort by a US
>>>> agency
>>>> and an Indian agency about the various facets of pollution control.
>>>> Throughout the Study one of the major pollution reduction strategies
>>>> suggested is Separation of Vulnerable Road Users (Provision of
>>>> Footpath).
>>>> I quote: "The intermixing of vehicles and pedestrian movements in the
>>>> absence of footpaths results in reduced speeds and increase in number of
>>>> accidents. The provision of footpaths and pedestrian crossings and can
>>>> reduce these conflicts to a great extent and increase the average
>>>> speed."
>>>> The statistics given in support of the suggestion is interesting to
>>>> check.
>>>>
>>>> In Hyderabad, the Right to Walk Foundation is trying to check with the
>>>> Andhra Pradesh Pollution Control Board (APPCB) as to whether any of
>>>> these
>>>> recommendations have been adopted?
>>>>
>>>> Needless to say that widened roads are replacing the existing footpaths
>>>> because the authorities feel that widened roads are the solution for all
>>>> traffic problems.
>>>>
>>>> We definitely need to take a few short term measures and a few long term
>>>> strategies so that our city does not have the tag of the most polluted
>>>> metro
>>>> in the country.
>>>>
>>>> Kanthi Kannan
>>>>
>>>> The Right to Walk Foundation
>>>>
>>>> www.right2walk.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via
>>>> YAHOOGROUPS.
>>>>
>>>> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to
>>>> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The
>>>> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to
>>>> the
>>>> real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like
>>>> you
>>>> can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
>>>>
>>>> ================================================================
>>>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
>>>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
>>>> (the 'Global South').
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>> Sujit Patwardhan
>>> sujitjp at gmail.com
>>>
>>> "Yamuna",
>>> ICS Colony,
>>> Ganeshkhind Road,
>>> Pune 411 007
>>> India
>>> Tel: +91 20 25537955
>>> Cell: +91 98220 26627
>>> -----------------------------------------------------
>>> Hon. Secretary:
>>> Parisar
>>> www.parisar.org
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>> Founder Member:
>>> PTTF
>>> (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum)
>>> www.pttf.net
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 12:43:37 +0800
>>> From: Sudhir <sudhir at cai-asia.org>
>>> Subject: [sustran] Re: Right to Walk and Pollution in Hyd: Interesting
>>> 	read
>>> To: "Sujit Patwardhan" <sujitjp at gmail.com>
>>> Cc: NewMobilityCafe at yahoogroups.com,	Global 'South' Sustainable
>>> 	Transport <sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
>>> Message-ID:
>>> 	<ef31aa130808202143t1f2454efp9c9e805842fb5451 at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Any argument which brings better pedestrian infrastructure is fine with
>>> me. :-) (capacity, congestion .. if it gets the results).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1-2 decades back it was small isolated flyovers and now its elevated
>>> roads and in  future......
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (I would dream of best pedestrian and cycle infrastructure integrated
>>> with
>>> eco-friendly mass transport systems implemented in cities :-))...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Sudhir
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 21/08/2008, Sujit Patwardhan <sujitjp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> *
>>>> in response to Kanthi Kannan's mail*
>>>>
>>>> I don't see much difference between short term measures and the long
>>>> term
>>>> ones. Basically whether in the short term or long we need:-
>>>>
>>>> -- radically improved adequate, efficient and affordable Public
>>>> Transport
>>>> -- safe, attractive and adequately wide pedestrian footpaths (not the
>>>> same
>>>> as Skywalks)
>>>> -- safe, comfortable (good surface) and citywide bicycle paths. These
>>>> need
>>>> not be exclusive or protected ones on all the streets, ie in congested
>>>> areas
>>>> sharing the street with motor vehicles should be possible provided
>>>> traffic
>>>> calming is introduced and rigidly enforced. City bike scheme like Velib
>>>> in
>>>> Paris after thorough planning
>>>> -- appropriate TDM measures to discourage use of personal auto vehicle
>>>> use
>>>> at least during peak hours - the usual options are tighter parking
>>>> control,
>>>> higher parking charges, congestion charging, auto vehicle-free areas,
>>>> pollution taxes etc
>>>>
>>>> One should avoid talking in terms of short term and long term strategies
>>>> as
>>>> this gives too wide an option to an administration that isn't really
>>>> keen
>>>> to
>>>> do anything for sustainable transportation/new mobility but seems to be
>>>> pre-programmed to build more and more facilities to reduce the problems
>>>> for
>>>> the auto vehicles. As a concrete example the Comprehensive Mobility Plan
>>>> for
>>>> Pune has a Trojan horse in form of a statement "flyovers may be built as
>>>> an
>>>> interim measure in view of many more people with higher incomes wanting
>>>> to
>>>> buy cars". In one of the meetings we asked the consultants if they were
>>>> "interim" would they be demolished in a couple of years? The answer was
>>>> of
>>>> course a very uncomfortable smile (or a smirk)?? !!!!!
>>>>
>>>> Rest of the Mobility Plan talks the language of the National Urban
>>>> Transport Policy (which said "People not vehicles" will be at the centre
>>>> of
>>>> mobility planning. It also said personal vehicles need to be discouraged
>>>> and
>>>> public transport pedestrians and cyclists given a boost).
>>>>
>>>> It's time to stop our city bosses from getting away with this kind of
>>>> sabotage.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sujit Patwardhan
>>>> Parisar
>>>> Pune
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 7:37 AM, Kanthi Kannan
>>>> <kanthikannan at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> http://www.epa.gov/ies/pdf/india/iesfinal_0405.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The study in the link given above is a well documented effort by a US
>>>>> agency
>>>>> and an Indian agency about the various facets of pollution control.
>>>>> Throughout the Study one of the major pollution reduction strategies
>>>>> suggested is Separation of Vulnerable Road Users (Provision of
>>>>> Footpath).
>>>>> I quote: "The intermixing of vehicles and pedestrian movements in the
>>>>> absence of footpaths results in reduced speeds and increase in number
>>>>> of
>>>>> accidents. The provision of footpaths and pedestrian crossings and can
>>>>> reduce these conflicts to a great extent and increase the average
>>>>> speed."
>>>>> The statistics given in support of the suggestion is interesting to
>>>>> check.
>>>>>
>>>>> In Hyderabad, the Right to Walk Foundation is trying to check with the
>>>>> Andhra Pradesh Pollution Control Board (APPCB) as to whether any of
>>>>> these
>>>>> recommendations have been adopted?
>>>>>
>>>>> Needless to say that widened roads are replacing the existing footpaths
>>>>> because the authorities feel that widened roads are the solution for
>>>>> all
>>>>> traffic problems.
>>>>>
>>>>> We definitely need to take a few short term measures and a few long
>>>>> term
>>>>> strategies so that our city does not have the tag of the most polluted
>>>>> metro
>>>>> in the country.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kanthi Kannan
>>>>>
>>>>> The Right to Walk Foundation
>>>>>
>>>>> www.right2walk.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via
>>>>> YAHOOGROUPS.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to
>>>>> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The
>>>>> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to
>>>>> the
>>>>> real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like
>>>>> you
>>>>> can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
>>>>>
>>>>> ================================================================
>>>>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
>>>>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
>>>>> countries
>>>>> (the 'Global South').
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Sujit Patwardhan
>>>> sujitjp at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> "Yamuna",
>>>> ICS Colony,
>>>> Ganeshkhind Road,
>>>> Pune 411 007
>>>> India
>>>> Tel: +91 20 25537955
>>>> Cell: +91 98220 26627
>>>> -----------------------------------------------------
>>>> Hon. Secretary:
>>>> Parisar
>>>> www.parisar.org
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Founder Member:
>>>> PTTF
>>>> (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum)
>>>> www.pttf.net
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sudhir Gota
>>> Transport Specialist
>>> CAI-Asia Center
>>> Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower,
>>> ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City
>>> Metro Manila, Philippines 1605
>>> Tel: +63-2-395-2843
>>> Fax: +63-2-395-2846
>>> http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia
>>> Skype : sudhirgota
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 09:48:07 +0530
>>> From: "Sujit Patwardhan" <sujitjp at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [sustran] [NewMobilityCafe] Re: Right to Walk and Pollution
>>> 	in Hyd:	Interesting read
>>> To: "Kanthi Kannan" <kanthikannan at gmail.com>
>>> Cc: NewMobilityCafe at yahoogroups.com,	Global 'South' Sustainable
>>> 	Transport <sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
>>> Message-ID:
>>> 	<4cfd20aa0808202118l4214d496j9b479766d5604328 at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>> *
>>> in response to Kanthi Kannan's mail*
>>>
>>> I don't see much difference between short term measures and the long term
>>> ones. Basically whether in the short term or long we need:-
>>>
>>> -- radically improved adequate, efficient and affordable Public Transport
>>> -- safe, attractive and adequately wide pedestrian footpaths (not the
>>> same
>>> as Skywalks)
>>> -- safe, comfortable (good surface) and citywide bicycle paths. These
>>> need
>>> not be exclusive or protected ones on all the streets, ie in congested
>>> areas
>>> sharing the street with motor vehicles should be possible provided
>>> traffic
>>> calming is introduced and rigidly enforced. City bike scheme like Velib
>>> in
>>> Paris after thorough planning
>>> -- appropriate TDM measures to discourage use of personal auto vehicle
>>> use
>>> at least during peak hours - the usual options are tighter parking
>>> control,
>>> higher parking charges, congestion charging, auto vehicle-free areas,
>>> pollution taxes etc
>>>
>>> One should avoid talking in terms of short term and long term strategies
>>> as
>>> this gives too wide an option to an administration that isn't really keen
>>> to
>>> do anything for sustainable transportation/new mobility but seems to be
>>> pre-programmed to build more and more facilities to reduce the problems
>>> for
>>> the auto vehicles. As a concrete example the Comprehensive Mobility Plan
>>> for
>>> Pune has a Trojan horse in form of a statement "flyovers may be built as
>>> an
>>> interim measure in view of many more people with higher incomes wanting
>>> to
>>> buy cars". In one of the meetings we asked the consultants if they were
>>> "interim" would they be demolished in a couple of years? The answer was
>>> of
>>> course a very uncomfortable smile (or a smirk)?? !!!!!
>>>
>>> Rest of the Mobility Plan talks the language of the National Urban
>>> Transport
>>> Policy (which said "People not vehicles" will be at the centre of
>>> mobility
>>> planning. It also said personal vehicles need to be discouraged and
>>> public
>>> transport pedestrians and cyclists given a boost).
>>>
>>> It's time to stop our city bosses from getting away with this kind of
>>> sabotage.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sujit Patwardhan
>>> Parisar
>>> Pune
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 7:37 AM, Kanthi Kannan
>>> <kanthikannan at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> http://www.epa.gov/ies/pdf/india/iesfinal_0405.pdf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The study in the link given above is a well documented effort by a US
>>>> agency
>>>> and an Indian agency about the various facets of pollution control.
>>>> Throughout the Study one of the major pollution reduction strategies
>>>> suggested is Separation of Vulnerable Road Users (Provision of
>>>> Footpath).
>>>> I quote: "The intermixing of vehicles and pedestrian movements in the
>>>> absence of footpaths results in reduced speeds and increase in number of
>>>> accidents. The provision of footpaths and pedestrian crossings and can
>>>> reduce these conflicts to a great extent and increase the average
>>>> speed."
>>>> The statistics given in support of the suggestion is interesting to
>>>> check.
>>>>
>>>> In Hyderabad, the Right to Walk Foundation is trying to check with the
>>>> Andhra Pradesh Pollution Control Board (APPCB) as to whether any of
>>>> these
>>>> recommendations have been adopted?
>>>>
>>>> Needless to say that widened roads are replacing the existing footpaths
>>>> because the authorities feel that widened roads are the solution for all
>>>> traffic problems.
>>>>
>>>> We definitely need to take a few short term measures and a few long term
>>>> strategies so that our city does not have the tag of the most polluted
>>>> metro
>>>> in the country.
>>>>
>>>> Kanthi Kannan
>>>>
>>>> The Right to Walk Foundation
>>>>
>>>> www.right2walk.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via
>>>> YAHOOGROUPS.
>>>>
>>>> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to
>>>> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The
>>>> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to
>>>> the
>>>> real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like
>>>> you
>>>> can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
>>>>
>>>> ================================================================
>>>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
>>>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
>>>> (the 'Global South').
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>> Sujit Patwardhan
>>> sujitjp at gmail.com
>>>
>>> "Yamuna",
>>> ICS Colony,
>>> Ganeshkhind Road,
>>> Pune 411 007
>>> India
>>> Tel: +91 20 25537955
>>> Cell: +91 98220 26627
>>> -----------------------------------------------------
>>> Hon. Secretary:
>>> Parisar
>>> www.parisar.org
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>> Founder Member:
>>> PTTF
>>> (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum)
>>> www.pttf.net
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 5
>>> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 11:10:38 +0530
>>> From: "Kanthi Kannan" <kanthikannan at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [sustran] Re: Right to Walk and Pollution in Hyd: Interesting
>>> 	read
>>> To: "'Sudhir'" <sudhir at cai-asia.org>, "'Sujit Patwardhan'"
>>> 	<sujitjp at gmail.com>
>>> Cc: NewMobilityCafe at yahoogroups.com,	'Global 'South' Sustainable
>>> 	Transport' <sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
>>> Message-ID: <48acffe3.0e0d6e0a.7347.ffff89de at mx.google.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> Dear all
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> When I mentioned in my earlier mail that we need to look at both short
>>> term
>>> and long term measures, I think that I was not very clear with my
>>> statement.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What I meant was that have goals that are achievable in the short term.
>>> 1.
>>> Like getting pedestrian crossings done at a few selected locations. 2.
>>> Get a
>>> few footpaths cleared for use if not completely at least give enough
>>> access
>>> space. When we are talking about short term, the time frame is about 4 to
>>> 6
>>> months.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In our campaign unless, we are able to show some concrete progress people
>>> will not be willing to join our campaign. That is the reason for our
>>> concrete doables. We would ideally like to achieve all this and more as
>>> soon
>>> as possible.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What Sri. Sujit ji has mentioned comes in our long term measures and
>>> hence
>>> goals.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree that we need to look at the whole picture and not just at smaller
>>> parts and let the authorities not really put any thing into action.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The major issues in Hyd are
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1.	Parking by Corporates: This is a Major issue in Hyd since even the
>>> larger Retail Outlets ( Reliance Fresh, ICICI Bank, HDFC Bank, Reliance
>>> Communications, Vodaphone, MORE to name a few) do not have any parking
>>> place
>>> for customers and the vehicles are parked on the footpaths. We are
>>> shocked
>>> because these corporates talk so much about Social Responsibility and yet
>>> seem to be neglecting the basic pedestrian safety issue.
>>> 2.	Lack of manned Pedestrian Crossings: There are many zebra lines
>>> drawn at various locations on each road but there is very little
>>> probability
>>> of any vehicle stopping at these places because of various reasons. Chief
>>> among them is the lack of implementation of the rule.
>>> 3.	Height of Road dividers: The road dividers are pretty easy to cross
>>> and hence people jump over them and then run across the road. We are
>>> trying
>>> to get the authorities to make the road dividers higher so that people
>>> cannot cross the road where ever they want.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Of course like all other Indian Cities, we have our quota of temples and
>>> mosques etc that take away our walking space and make us easy targets of
>>> the
>>> motorised drivers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Kanthi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The Right to Walk Foundation
>>>
>>> www.right2walk.com <http://www.right2walk.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   _____
>>>
>>> From: Sudhir [mailto:sudhir at cai-asia.org]
>>> Sent: 21 August 2008 10:14
>>> To: Sujit Patwardhan
>>> Cc: Kanthi Kannan; Walter Hook; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport;
>>> NewMobilityCafe at yahoogroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: [sustran] Re: Right to Walk and Pollution in Hyd:
>>> Interesting
>>> read
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Any argument which brings better pedestrian infrastructure is fine with
>>> me.
>>> :-) (capacity, congestion .. if it gets the results).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1-2 decades back it was small isolated flyovers and now its elevated
>>> roads
>>> and in  future......
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (I would dream of best pedestrian and cycle infrastructure integrated
>>> with
>>> eco-friendly mass transport systems implemented in cities :-))...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Sudhir
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 21/08/2008, Sujit Patwardhan <sujitjp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> in response to Kanthi Kannan's mail
>>>
>>> I don't see much difference between short term measures and the long term
>>> ones. Basically whether in the short term or long we need:-
>>>
>>> -- radically improved adequate, efficient and affordable Public Transport
>>> -- safe, attractive and adequately wide pedestrian footpaths (not the
>>> same
>>> as Skywalks)
>>> -- safe, comfortable (good surface) and citywide bicycle paths. These
>>> need
>>> not be exclusive or protected ones on all the streets, ie in congested
>>> areas
>>> sharing the street with motor vehicles should be possible provided
>>> traffic
>>> calming is introduced and rigidly enforced. City bike scheme like Velib
>>> in
>>> Paris after thorough planning
>>> -- appropriate TDM measures to discourage use of personal auto vehicle
>>> use
>>> at least during peak hours - the usual options are tighter parking
>>> control,
>>> higher parking charges, congestion charging, auto vehicle-free areas,
>>> pollution taxes etc
>>>
>>> One should avoid talking in terms of short term and long term strategies
>>> as
>>> this gives too wide an option to an administration that isn't really keen
>>> to
>>> do anything for sustainable transportation/new mobility but seems to be
>>> pre-programmed to build more and more facilities to reduce the problems
>>> for
>>> the auto vehicles. As a concrete example the Comprehensive Mobility Plan
>>> for
>>> Pune has a Trojan horse in form of a statement "flyovers may be built as
>>> an
>>> interim measure in view of many more people with higher incomes wanting
>>> to
>>> buy cars". In one of the meetings we asked the consultants if they were
>>> "interim" would they be demolished in a couple of years? The answer was
>>> of
>>> course a very uncomfortable smile (or a smirk)?? !!!!!
>>>
>>> Rest of the Mobility Plan talks the language of the National Urban
>>> Transport
>>> Policy (which said "People not vehicles" will be at the centre of
>>> mobility
>>> planning. It also said personal vehicles need to be discouraged and
>>> public
>>> transport pedestrians and cyclists given a boost).
>>>
>>> It's time to stop our city bosses from getting away with this kind of
>>> sabotage.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sujit Patwardhan
>>> Parisar
>>> Pune
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 7:37 AM, Kanthi Kannan <kanthikannan at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.epa.gov/ies/pdf/india/iesfinal_0405.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>> The study in the link given above is a well documented effort by a US
>>> agency
>>> and an Indian agency about the various facets of pollution control.
>>> Throughout the Study one of the major pollution reduction strategies
>>> suggested is Separation of Vulnerable Road Users (Provision of Footpath).
>>> I quote: "The intermixing of vehicles and pedestrian movements in the
>>> absence of footpaths results in reduced speeds and increase in number of
>>> accidents. The provision of footpaths and pedestrian crossings and can
>>> reduce these conflicts to a great extent and increase the average speed."
>>> The statistics given in support of the suggestion is interesting to
>>> check.
>>>
>>> In Hyderabad, the Right to Walk Foundation is trying to check with the
>>> Andhra Pradesh Pollution Control Board (APPCB) as to whether any of these
>>> recommendations have been adopted?
>>>
>>> Needless to say that widened roads are replacing the existing footpaths
>>> because the authorities feel that widened roads are the solution for all
>>> traffic problems.
>>>
>>> We definitely need to take a few short term measures and a few long term
>>> strategies so that our city does not have the tag of the most polluted
>>> metro
>>> in the country.
>>>
>>> Kanthi Kannan
>>>
>>> The Right to Walk Foundation
>>>
>>> www.right2walk.com <http://www.right2walk.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via
>>> YAHOOGROUPS.
>>>
>>> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to
>>> join
>>> the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups
>>> version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real
>>> sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you
>>> can).
>>> Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
>>>
>>> ================================================================
>>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
>>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
>>> (the 'Global South').
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>> Sujit Patwardhan
>>> sujitjp at gmail.com
>>>
>>> "Yamuna",
>>> ICS Colony,
>>> Ganeshkhind Road,
>>> Pune 411 007
>>> India
>>> Tel: +91 20 25537955
>>> Cell: +91 98220 26627
>>> -----------------------------------------------------
>>> Hon. Secretary:
>>> Parisar
>>> www.parisar.org <http://www.parisar.org/>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>> Founder Member:
>>> PTTF
>>> (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum)
>>> www.pttf.net <http://www.pttf.net/>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sudhir Gota
>>> Transport Specialist
>>> CAI-Asia Center
>>> Unit 3510, 35th Floor, Robinsons-Equitable Tower,
>>> ADB Avenue, Ortigas Center, Pasig City
>>> Metro Manila, Philippines 1605
>>> Tel: +63-2-395-2843
>>> Fax: +63-2-395-2846
>>> http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia
>>> Skype : sudhirgota
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 6
>>> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 05:17:51 -0500
>>> From: Carlosfelipe Pardo <carlosfpardo at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [sustran] Re: Right to Walk and Pollution in Hyd: Interesting
>>> 	read
>>> To: Sudhir <sudhir at cai-asia.org>
>>> Cc: NewMobilityCafe at yahoogroups.com,	Global 'South' Sustainable
>>> 	Transport <sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
>>> Message-ID: <48AD40CF.7050803 at gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> In reading Kanthi's email, it seems that the important issue were to
>>> reduce congestion and emissions by increasing vehicle speeds... (!) From
>>> my point of view, it's better to actually concentrate on reducing
>>> demand, and in that way you won't need to segregate or to spend money on
>>> infrastructure, plus you won't have to force pedestrians to walk even
>>> more than they have to (detour factors for pedestrians in developing
>>> cities are much higher than for any other mode). For instance, take 20
>>> car drivers and put them in one bus: you'll have freed up road space,
>>> increased speeds and reduced pollution (per person, which is the
>>> important individual). Plus you can still stop and wait for pedestrians
>>> to cross without the need of a bridge. AND you will have spent less
>>> money!
>>>
>>> My point is that thinking of speed and throughput as a solution to
>>> congestion (and emissions) will not solve the problem, but rather worsen
>>> it in the long run (induced travel generates more traffic, thus more
>>> pollution, even at higher speeds). Thinking of speed per individual
>>> vehicle is always a problem (as is thinking about vehicles).
>>>
>>> But the point from Sudhir regarding a possibly "evolution" towards
>>> improvement (first flyovers, then pedestrian bridges, and in future even
>>> better) is well taken. Above may be the vision of what we want, and
>>> reality may take some time to adjust... but let's please always propose
>>> the vision, and then adjust it to reality!
>>>
>>> These issues are better explained in some publications of GTZ SUTP: NMT
>>> training document, Economic Instruments, Mobility Management. All are
>>> available from www.sutp.org .
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Carlosfelipe Pardo
>>> Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator
>>> GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC)
>>> Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708
>>> Bogot? D.C., Colombia
>>> Tel/fax:  +57 (1) 236 2309  Mobile: +57 (3)15 296 0662
>>> carlos.pardo at gtz.de        www.gtz.de
>>> (carlos.pardo at sutp.org   www.sutp.org )
>>>
>>> Sudhir wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Any argument which brings better pedestrian infrastructure is fine with
>>>> me. :-) (capacity, congestion .. if it gets the results).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1-2 decades back it was small isolated flyovers and now its elevated
>>>> roads and in  future......
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (I would dream of best pedestrian and cycle infrastructure integrated
>>>> with
>>>> eco-friendly mass transport systems implemented in cities :-))...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Sudhir
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 21/08/2008, Sujit Patwardhan <sujitjp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> *
>>>>> in response to Kanthi Kannan's mail*
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't see much difference between short term measures and the long
>>>>> term
>>>>> ones. Basically whether in the short term or long we need:-
>>>>>
>>>>> -- radically improved adequate, efficient and affordable Public
>>>>> Transport
>>>>> -- safe, attractive and adequately wide pedestrian footpaths (not the
>>>>> same
>>>>> as Skywalks)
>>>>> -- safe, comfortable (good surface) and citywide bicycle paths. These
>>>>> need
>>>>> not be exclusive or protected ones on all the streets, ie in congested
>>>>> areas
>>>>> sharing the street with motor vehicles should be possible provided
>>>>> traffic
>>>>> calming is introduced and rigidly enforced. City bike scheme like Velib
>>>>> in
>>>>> Paris after thorough planning
>>>>> -- appropriate TDM measures to discourage use of personal auto vehicle
>>>>> use
>>>>> at least during peak hours - the usual options are tighter parking
>>>>> control,
>>>>> higher parking charges, congestion charging, auto vehicle-free areas,
>>>>> pollution taxes etc
>>>>>
>>>>> One should avoid talking in terms of short term and long term
>>>>> strategies
>>>>> as
>>>>> this gives too wide an option to an administration that isn't really
>>>>> keen
>>>>> to
>>>>> do anything for sustainable transportation/new mobility but seems to be
>>>>> pre-programmed to build more and more facilities to reduce the problems
>>>>> for
>>>>> the auto vehicles. As a concrete example the Comprehensive Mobility
>>>>> Plan
>>>>> for
>>>>> Pune has a Trojan horse in form of a statement "flyovers may be built
>>>>> as
>>>>> an
>>>>> interim measure in view of many more people with higher incomes wanting
>>>>> to
>>>>> buy cars". In one of the meetings we asked the consultants if they were
>>>>> "interim" would they be demolished in a couple of years? The answer was
>>>>> of
>>>>> course a very uncomfortable smile (or a smirk)?? !!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Rest of the Mobility Plan talks the language of the National Urban
>>>>> Transport Policy (which said "People not vehicles" will be at the
>>>>> centre
>>>>> of
>>>>> mobility planning. It also said personal vehicles need to be
>>>>> discouraged
>>>>> and
>>>>> public transport pedestrians and cyclists given a boost).
>>>>>
>>>>> It's time to stop our city bosses from getting away with this kind of
>>>>> sabotage.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sujit Patwardhan
>>>>> Parisar
>>>>> Pune
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 7:37 AM, Kanthi Kannan
>>>>> <kanthikannan at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.epa.gov/ies/pdf/india/iesfinal_0405.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The study in the link given above is a well documented effort by a US
>>>>>> agency
>>>>>> and an Indian agency about the various facets of pollution control.
>>>>>> Throughout the Study one of the major pollution reduction strategies
>>>>>> suggested is Separation of Vulnerable Road Users (Provision of
>>>>>> Footpath).
>>>>>> I quote: "The intermixing of vehicles and pedestrian movements in the
>>>>>> absence of footpaths results in reduced speeds and increase in number
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> accidents. The provision of footpaths and pedestrian crossings and can
>>>>>> reduce these conflicts to a great extent and increase the average
>>>>>> speed."
>>>>>> The statistics given in support of the suggestion is interesting to
>>>>>> check.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Hyderabad, the Right to Walk Foundation is trying to check with the
>>>>>> Andhra Pradesh Pollution Control Board (APPCB) as to whether any of
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> recommendations have been adopted?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Needless to say that widened roads are replacing the existing
>>>>>> footpaths
>>>>>> because the authorities feel that widened roads are the solution for
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> traffic problems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We definitely need to take a few short term measures and a few long
>>>>>> term
>>>>>> strategies so that our city does not have the tag of the most polluted
>>>>>> metro
>>>>>> in the country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kanthi Kannan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Right to Walk Foundation
>>>>>>
>>>>>> www.right2walk.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via
>>>>>> YAHOOGROUPS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The
>>>>>> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ================================================================
>>>>>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
>>>>>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
>>>>>> countries
>>>>>> (the 'Global South').
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Sujit Patwardhan
>>>>> sujitjp at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> "Yamuna",
>>>>> ICS Colony,
>>>>> Ganeshkhind Road,
>>>>> Pune 411 007
>>>>> India
>>>>> Tel: +91 20 25537955
>>>>> Cell: +91 98220 26627
>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Hon. Secretary:
>>>>> Parisar
>>>>> www.parisar.org
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Founder Member:
>>>>> PTTF
>>>>> (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum)
>>>>> www.pttf.net
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> ================================================================
>>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
>>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
>>> (the 'Global South').
>>>
>>> End of Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 60, Issue 15
>>> ***********************************************
>>>
>>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via
>> YAHOOGROUPS.
>>
>> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to
>> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The
>> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to
>> the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like
>> you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
>>
>> ================================================================
>> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
>> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
>> (the 'Global South').
>>
>>
>