[sustran] Re: [Fwd: [carfree_cities] Token efforts we know are
useless...]
Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory
edelman at greenidea.eu
Tue Oct 23 19:57:37 JST 2007
Hi Jeroen and everyone,
Jeroen Verhoeven wrote:
> Hi Todd,
>
> I read your e-mail and I indeed one can say in hundreds of ways the
> same argument over and over again, but it always stays the same
> argument. And I heard the argument hundreds of times before.
>
> We need increased fuel efficiency AND to reduce car use.
OF course!
> Why?
>
> Let me put it frankly. I read somewhere in your mail somebody was
> talking about masturbating.
> I think that the whole debate of fuel efficiency VERSUS reducing car
> use is a textbook example of idiological masturbation. It is a waste
> of time and energy, which is not getting anybody any further.
AS I tried to say in my email, I didn't agree with everything that was
said and I also think it is a matter of balance, also in rhetoric.
>
> There is indeed a rebound risk, that increased energy efficiency is
> offset by increased use. That goes for cars, as well as for energy
> saving light bulbs.
> Energy saving light bulbs are not a subsitute for switching off the
> light neither, but I don't hear any ideological debate going on there.
> Why?
HMMM... good question.
>
> So please, let's be a bit pragmatic and work with each other instead
> of against each other.
PRAGMATISM often leads to a dumbing down of the issues (worse, of
course, when an environmental group takes money from the auto- and
autorelated- industry... thankfully not the case with FoE). The whole
debate is still mostly about biofuels and carbon, and that is way
oversimplified. I know you know that, and you know I do, but lots people
don't. There is a tendency to oversimplify, and the machinations in
Brussels encourage that, but the result is that the biggest enviro
groups in Europe are spending the lion's share of their time on the
issue which is not the biggest share of the problem.
Also, I am not sure if this more or less internal debate is "working
against..."
As I said, right now the high profile environmental groups in Europe are
doing great work on reducing carbon emissions and improving efficiency -
and my only argument with that is the rebound thing, as you mentioned.
(It is of course also about cars being smaller, and people not just
feeling better but using this a starting point for further better
behaviour), but the problem is that what the public sees is mostly,
almost exclusively, talk about fixing cars.
In other words it is not being into the best context. I recall something
in a recent T&E publication which said something like "... and policies
to make development more dense..." (Forgive me if I got that horribly
wrong) but it seemed almost like an add on. To say this another way.
"Transport" in a city starts with urban design, so I would LOVE it if
T&E began HT&E (Habitat, Transport and Environment) which could
incorporate areas outside cities. I will buy a T-shirt with the new logo.
>
> Here is a ver very short analysys of how both are working on another
> level and complementary.
>
> Working on fuel efficiency is decided on the European level, and
> working to reduce car use is most effectively done on the local level,
> so both require working on another level.
WHERE does "polluter pays" come into this? On what level? Can't EU funds
for city development - especially in places getting Structural Funds -
be tied to a pre-condition of a city or region, etc. having a concrete
plan and demonstrated action to reduce car use? This would mean that a
city could not get EU funds for public transport as it also built lots
of car-oriented things (e.g. in Prague).
>
> Working on fuel efficiency is in a way quite straightforward, although
> working in direct confrontation with the car manufacturers, in a tense
> political climate.
> Working to reduce car use is a very complex matter, touching on issues
> as land use, real estate prices, urban sprawl, public transport, air
> quality, local economy, social policies, political competencies
> scattered over different levels,... and so on.
>
> In short, it is a matter of working on different levels. A fuel
> efficiency campaign needs to be accompagnied by local work to reduce
> car use, and working to reduce car use needs fuel efficiency for two
> reasons:
>
> 1) Even with less cars in society, the cars there are need to be more
> fuel efficient.
> 2) If we don't succeed to have less cars in society (which seems to be
> the case for the moment), the least we can do is to make them use less
> fuel.
AND, again, what about the "rebound effect" you mentioned?
Again I think the balance is not the best it could be, in both action
and rhetoric. Too much emphasis on mobility. "Mobility" is something in
the proposed EU Constitution which probably everyone agrees with... but
"Proximity"? Not nearly enough.
In other words I really love what FoE and T&E do and would be really
happy if you could use your power and visibility to at least make the
holistic solution more clear. That is why I like that - finally - more
people from FoE are participating in this forum.
>
> I support the carfree work very much, and locally here in Brussels I
> am involved as a volunteer in the organisation of actions to reduce
> car use. I like action, not sterile debates.
> Cheers,
>
> Jeroen
>
> P.S.: This is the project I did with a bunch of friends in Brussels on
> the car fee day: www.auto-nomy.org <http://www.auto-nomy.org>
I LIKED when the car goes into the petrol station for air for its
tyres.... maybe you should have digitized out the "Total" sign... ;-) No
free publicity...
- T
p.s. There is still lots of discussion - some of it new and helpful -
going about this on the Carfree Cities list.
>
>
> Jeroen Verhoeven
> Cars and Climate Change Campaign
> Friends of the Earth Europe
> 15 Rue Blanche
> B-1050 Brussels
> T: +32-2-542 61 09
> F: +32-2-537 55 96
> E: jeroen.verhoeven at foeeurope.org
> W: www.foeeurope.org
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory" <edelman at greenidea.eu>
> To: jeroen.verhoeven at foeeurope.org, Global 'South' Sustainable
> Transport <sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>, Nina Renshaw
> <nina.renshaw at transportenvironment.org>
> Cc: kyle3054 at iprimus.com.au
> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 15:00:58 +0200
> Subject: [Fwd: [carfree_cities] Token efforts we know are useless...]
>
> Hi,
>
> This is not a new argument but perhaps it is stated a different way...
>
> I don't quite support all he says but it is clear to me that
> within our
> broad community focused on sustainability there is still way too much
> emphasis on mobility, in particular private cars, over decreasing the
> need for mobility. As Randy Ghent says here
> < http://www.worldcarfree.net/conference/2007/randall_ghent.doc> the
> balance is wrong.
>
> Kyle's point about decreasing emissions is right on -- we already
> know
> how to do it without investing millions or billions in cleaner
> private
> cars. A similar point - about public transport - was made in the APTA
> report linked to from my Blog
> <http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/2007/10/blog-post.html >
>
> - T
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: [carfree_cities] Token efforts we know are useless...
> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:53:57 +1000
> From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054 at iprimus.com.au>
> Reply-To: carfree_cities at yahoogroups.com
> To: 90PercentReduction at yahoogroups.com,
> carfree_cities at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> ... but do anyway?
>
> I received in my inbox the other day a letter from people behind the
> campaign hosted here - http://www.pewfuelefficiency.org/.
> < http://www.pewfuelefficiency.org/.>
>
> "I am working with a coalition to ensure that Congress sends the
> president a strong energy bill in 2007. This bill includes meaningful
> changes for our environment and planet, namely the best fuel economy
> standards ever -- 35 mpg by 2020. [...]
>
> "This is a chance for real progress in our move towards a better
> environment and less dependence on foreign oil. This legislation would
> be a monumental step toward stopping global warming."
>
> I replied,
>
> "I am Australian. Your Congress does not care about me, nor I
> about it.
>
> "And your bill (going on what you've said, since the text of it is
> strangely absent from your website) is weak and sad anyway. You need a
> bit more than that to get a better environment and lessen
> dependence on
> foreign oil. The increased efficiencies will just be eaten up by a
> larger number of cars and people driving further.
>
> "Don't worry, by 2020 there'll be a lot less oil exported in the
> world as the exporters run short and consume more domestically, so
> your
> country won't be importing much anyway!"
>
> The response to this was,
>
> "Everything you say is true, that's for sure. Thanks for the frank
> reply!"
>
> I am puzzled by this. This person agrees that because of rising
> numbers
> of vehicles and people's tendency to drive further when fuel is
> cheaper
> or used more efficiently, that the 35 mpg efficiency standard is "weak
> and sad", and that oil exports are drying up and will stop Americans
> driving much anyway. So they agree that it's a token and useless
> effort,
> but they're doing it anyway.
>
> This, I think, explains a lot of our feelings of helplessness and
> confusion, and our various governments' atrocious inactivity in
> the face
> of climate change and peak fossil fuels. We waste time and effort on
> useless token efforts. Why? I assume because it makes us feel
> good. But
> doing something that makes you feel good and produces nothing is just
> masturbation; not in itself a bad thing, but not perhaps something I
> would boast about or ask other people to join me in.
>
> We do not need more fuel efficient cars to get around. Even if we
> had a
> 1,000mpg car, that won't help us when the fuel runs short, nor will it
> help us when the materials for making the cars themselves run
> short. We
> already have fuel-efficient means of transport, in the form of trains,
> trams, buses, ships, bicycles, animals and ultimately our feet.
> And all
> those we can use today, we don't have to wait for our parliaments to
> pass laws, or until 2020 or any other date. We can stop masturbating
> right now and get on our bikes and go.
>
> Cheers,
> Kyle
> http://greenwithagun.blogspot.com/ <
> http://greenwithagun.blogspot.com/>
>
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>
> --
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Todd Edelman
> Director
> Green Idea Factory
>
> Korunní 72
> CZ-10100 Praha 10
> Czech Republic
>
> Skype: toddedelman
> ++420 605 915 970
> ++420 222 517 832
>
> edelman at greenidea.eu
> http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/
> www.flickr.com/photos/edelman <http://www.flickr.com/photos/edelman>
>
> Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network
> www.worldcarfree.net <http://www.worldcarfree.net/>
>
--
--------------------------------------------
Todd Edelman
Director
Green Idea Factory
Korunní 72
CZ-10100 Praha 10
Czech Republic
Skype: toddedelman
++420 605 915 970
++420 222 517 832
edelman at greenidea.eu
http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/
www.flickr.com/photos/edelman
Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network
www.worldcarfree.net
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